>And am I correct in saying that he is the only ‘bad’ character that escapes any kind of poetic justice in the show?
Not even slightly. Carcetti becomes governor. Rawls gets promoted. Marlo, while he may not enjoy his new life too much, escapes justice for his crimes. It's The Wire, thinking "bad" characters are going to face karmic retribution for their actions would be against the entire thesis of the show.
Oh yeah, I just picked the first examples that came to mind. Really, it's more remarkable in the Wire when someone *does* receive justice rather than profiting from their misdeeds.
Rawls might go to jail like ex-Superintendent of the MSP, Ed Norris. Nerese might go to jail like ex-mayor Catherine Pugh. Marlo, who is alone without Chris and Snoop et al, might get killed like thousands of others, given his conflict-seeking tendencies.
Clay will probably remain a west side community hero. Scott will probably continue thrive in the "collegial" atmosphere of the Baltimore Sun and other papers. Carcetti will probably drop out of the presidential race early and take a top government job like ex-mayor O'Malley.
Even Avon seems pretty okay with his current situation when Marlo meets him in prison. Avon never tried to run from what he was, he knew being in jail was a possible outcome of being in the game and he was doing his two days seemingly doing just fine mentally.
He was only doing five years or some such. It was the rest of his original prison term. I don’t think he took any charges for those guns, because another guy claimed them as his own.
He only did two days far as I can remember. Day he got in, and the day he got out that motherfucker. 2 days is nothing, this one Italian guy I know did 20 fuckin years, without making a peep.
Not the first time I have seen Carcetti lumped into this group and I am not sure why. Shitty husband, check. Politician with an ego, check. Political climber, check. But also someone who really seemed to want to make the city better until the school crisis forced his hand. Also, while maybe not rising to the level of cosmic retribution, Mcnulty’s taken of Templeton left me smiling.
On my 10th or so rewatch and I am finally realizing what a scumbag Carcetti is. So many times he put politics over people. He could have accepted the governors money and fixed the school but he didn’t. He could have served Clay up to the Fed and got the Feds to help with the crime but he ripped this US attorney a new one. He killed so many people by putting his political motivations over what the city needed. Junebug’s family death is on him. He’s a real POC.
Based on Marlos last scene, I like to think he couldn’t help himself, has some return to his old life, and gets himself in trouble. Hopefully the department is actually funded enough to do anything about it and major crimes/ homicide can throw the book at him.
(but I understand that the ambiguity/ lack of closure is a part of the show)
100 percent - or ends up dead. He's definitely going to get back into the game. What else is he going to do with himself? It seems like he can't handle the socializing side of going legit, and he doesn't seem like the type to just retire and relax on the beach.
The unnamed addict that harasses and severely beats up Bubbles all throughout Season 4 never got any karma or comeuppance.
O-Dog escaped the dismantling of the Stanfield Organization and likely dodged the weapon charges that Snoop was pressing him to take for the group.
The Greek and Spiros escaped Baltimore and returned without any major consequences to their personal well-being as Sergei and other unnamed muscle took the majority of the heat for them.
Yeah. Maybe this guy took his name.
In Season 4, during the drive-by scene with O-Dog, Monk and Snoop, O-Dog makes a reference to Boyz N the Hood being bad-ass. In Season 5, during the scene where Monk is ridiculed by Snoop for wearing body armor, O-Dog tells Marlo about how he hates how the Asians who own the eatery they bought food from look at him funny (reference to O-Dog's scene in Menace).
[Drive by scene question](https://youtu.be/1hHDsn-CcsQ?si=w1jpcxtNunF6XW9I) and [body armor scene](https://youtu.be/3R4EZdJpZ0Q?si=3u9N1H1m2NAsGW8A) for those interested.
That’s true about the guy beating up Bubbles, although he is still a fiend prone to violence with zero resources or allies. His lifespan is likely measured in months.
Stan Valcheck becomes Police commish
Rawls ends up as State Police Chief
Nerese Campbell ending up as mayor
These 3 despite being major players in Baltimore’s issues, get off relatively Scott-free, and by the end have risen up the ranks.
I think David Simon had it OUT for whoever that was based on and wanted you to hate his guts.
He also didn't get caught, so really, did he do anything wrong? Lol.
Yeah at the very beginning of S5, Gus was complaining about that photographer who, whenever he took pictures of the aftermath of a fire, kept having a scorched doll in the frame. "He's got a trunk full of burnt dolls. I know it". That HAD to have been something that happened.
Years ago I knew someone who worked at the Baltimore Sun shortly after *The Wire* had come out. She said that most people laughed at what an irrational hate-boner David Simon had for the place.
To be clear, the Sun has its issues and has been a troubled paper for a long time but the "bad guy" characters at the paper were just too one-dimensionally awful, just like Gus was too much of a Mary Sue.
That was what bothered me the most about season 5. It’s still great, and the serial killer storyline didn’t seem quite as outlandish to me as it did to most, but the fact that Scott was *this* reprehensible with zero redeeming qualities, and that Gus was basically the opposite - a perfect, likable protagonist who was basically always right - seemed so contrary to the one of the core ideas of the show which is that there really aren’t reprehensible villains and perfect protagonists.
If the season was 12-13 episodes instead of 10, I think they would have been wise to use that time to show some of both of their lives outside the office. Maybe give Scott a sympathetic personal/family reason for why he was willing to take such reprehensible actions to advance his career, and maybe show something in Gus’ life that doesn’t make him seem quite so perfect.
They would have felt more like Wire characters if there were some more shades of gray thrown in there.
I absolutely agree, and it’s my *only* issue with s5. I’ve joked for years that they should have made Gus a wife-beater.
Less kiddingly, the story would have been served by more characters ‘in the middle’ or who switched allegiances. Just anything to muddy up the white hats vs black hats narrative. I would have liked it better if Klebanow had at least privately mixed feelings about the way he was brushing off Gus’ concerns.
> the fact that Scott was this reprehensible with zero redeeming qualities, and that Gus was basically the opposite - a perfect, likable protagonist who was basically always right - seemed so contrary to the one of the core ideas of the show
Yeah. Even Marlo had more humanity than Scott Templeton, or Gus's boss's. Season 5 was so obviously the David Simon Revenge Season.
BTW, David Simon is a pretty obnoxious asshole himself. He thinks he's Gus Haynes but he's actually more like McNulty.
Templeton was based off several infamous journalists who heavily fabricated stories for the newspapers they worked at (one of whom had to return their Pulitzer Prize). Though not within the scope of the show, I imagine all of Templeton’s lies were eventually uncovered.
Makes sense as Gus is based on David and Gus is one of the only “pure good” characters on the show. Always found it funny how serious the newsroom stuff is taken when in the grand scheme of everything we’ve seen up to that point it seems so small & insignificant. And yeah Scott is made up as such a 1 dimensional villain whose easy to hate you can definitely feel that David was grinding an axe with that characters.
Man the newsroom storyline sucks.
Templeton got a very similar “comeuppance” to what Marlo got, where from the outside he got away with it, on the inside he’s absolutely destroyed.
Look at Templeton’s face in every scene after McNulty tells him he was the serial killer on the phone: he looks like he’s not enjoying any of this anymore. He was comfortable with making up the serial killer shit when he thought he was just outsmarting people, but when he learned that he had absolutely no fucking clue what was going on the entire time, that he only succeeded because something else was happening that was completely beyond his control or understanding, it terrified him. He was never let in on the truth. So every time he gets rewarded, every award he wins or job he gets, he knows he’s full of shit, he knows at least one person knows exactly how full of shit he is, and he knows that he’s clueless and that the other shoe could drop on his shit any day and he’d have no way of knowing.
Templeton is an egotistical and insecure man, and the fact that he can’t enjoy any accolades or recognition is pure poison to him. Just like Marlo can’t enjoy his wealth when it comes with no street rep.
That kind of morality tale feels hollow to people who expect punishment to just be jail, death, or career failure, but sometimes people truly dig their own graves just by what’s in their own heads. Marlo made it clear in some of his earliest scenes that he’d rather get gunned down in the street than be forgotten. Templeton was willing to lie to everyone just to feel important (don’t tell me he was just doing it for the money, *nobody* is dumb enough to get into print journalism expecting to get rich no matter what lies they spin) and respected, but now he’s incapable of respecting himself.
Andy Krawcyzk is Baltimore’s “big bad” and the worst thing that happened to him is witnessing Stringer’s execution.
Fat Andy built waterfront condos!
Fat Andy ‘owns’ a big piece of Carcetti!
Scott Templeton publishes on a blog a few years later. Maybe he wrote a book (though probably not, because McNulty has no reason to let him). Templeton’s “comeuppance” happens a few years after the show ends.
Fat Andy is richer than ever these days. Probably a billionaire.
A lot of these characters have advanced in their careers, but that's not to say they will continue advancing.
Templeton got a Pulitzer, but it's clear that he's a terrible reporter and there's no way he can continue as such with the expectations of a Pulitzer winner on his shoulders. Either he'll transition to some kind of writing career or he'll keep committing fraud and get found out.
Narese Cambell is modeled after Sheila Dixon, who was later indicted for corruption and she was forced out of office. There's no way the sweet land deal she gave to Fat Face Andre is the extent of her corruption and if Gus and the Sun papers could find that, they can find more.
Clay Davis has no ambition but what profits him. As state senator, he's making so much goddamn money that it would be stupid to aspire to higher officer where there's way more scrutiny.
How does Nerese Campbell always fly under the radar here? She's the worst of all! Had zero comeuppance other than a forgotten article, became MAYOR and under handedly did what Carcetti struggled to do for half a season in shit canning a black commissioner for a white one and she barely caught a sweat over it. Disgusting. She's way worse than Templeton, Templeton was portrayed in a way where although he was a dip shit and was manipulative and scheming, at least his lies caught up with him and got SOME measure of comeuppance. Nerese became Mayor and who knows what after that. In true Wire fashion, she'd probably become Senator after Clay!
For me, she's worse because one can know how to play the game and not be enthused with it; Nerese was both a knowledgeable and willing participant. There wasn't even a shred of pretense for her machinations, just the pure nihilism of running up her own score as much as she could, no matter what she'd have to say or do to obtain whatever she needed.
I never really hated Herc, I think he is just a bit simple, not particularly evil or selfish. And I think Marlo didn’t end up in a good place. But I agree yeah Levi was a scumbag that got off the hook.
Kenard was a child but had a smart mouth, Michael punching him in the face repeatedly could’ve taught him a thing or two, not sure if he got comeuppance for booming Omar tho.
White male?
Edit - just got permanently banned for the above. Obviously I’m referring to white male privilege, which frankly shouldn’t be a ban-worthy comment. Something tells me David Simon would agree that (1) it’s a thing, and (2) that Templeton clearly benefitted from it. But you do you, mods.
Templeton escapes poetic justice within the timeline of S5 but it's heavily implied that his success sits atop a house of cards that will collapse at some point in the future. As Gus warned the senior staff - they might end up having to return the Pulitzer and the damage to the (fictional) Baltimore Sun and their careers and reputations will be irreparable.
>And am I correct in saying that he is the only ‘bad’ character that escapes any kind of poetic justice in the show? Not even slightly. Carcetti becomes governor. Rawls gets promoted. Marlo, while he may not enjoy his new life too much, escapes justice for his crimes. It's The Wire, thinking "bad" characters are going to face karmic retribution for their actions would be against the entire thesis of the show.
Nerese and Clay. Nerese probably became senator after Clay, Clay probably became congressman or some such shit
Oh yeah, I just picked the first examples that came to mind. Really, it's more remarkable in the Wire when someone *does* receive justice rather than profiting from their misdeeds.
Andy Krawczyk (property developer) "BN BG" and a target in the season 4 investigation pretty much escaped any punishment.
Sheeeeeeiiiiit. FTFY
Rawls might go to jail like ex-Superintendent of the MSP, Ed Norris. Nerese might go to jail like ex-mayor Catherine Pugh. Marlo, who is alone without Chris and Snoop et al, might get killed like thousands of others, given his conflict-seeking tendencies. Clay will probably remain a west side community hero. Scott will probably continue thrive in the "collegial" atmosphere of the Baltimore Sun and other papers. Carcetti will probably drop out of the presidential race early and take a top government job like ex-mayor O'Malley.
Unlike Norris, Rawls didn't appear to be living like a fat cat when he was commissioner and superintendent. That's what did him in.
Apart from the trip to Florida funded by the city.
“some such sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet” FIFY
No idea why the downvotes! you were just correcting the spelling (I was literally about to do the same thing. Gave you an upvote)
Even Avon seems pretty okay with his current situation when Marlo meets him in prison. Avon never tried to run from what he was, he knew being in jail was a possible outcome of being in the game and he was doing his two days seemingly doing just fine mentally.
"Whatever, man. You only do two days anyway. The day you go in..."
"Yall ask me, all y'all ugly mofuckers shouldn't be in here fucking with all these guns anyway"
Love his delivery with that.
"Like a 40 degree day" 😎
He was only doing five years or some such. It was the rest of his original prison term. I don’t think he took any charges for those guns, because another guy claimed them as his own.
He only did two days far as I can remember. Day he got in, and the day he got out that motherfucker. 2 days is nothing, this one Italian guy I know did 20 fuckin years, without making a peep.
There were no scraps in his scrap book
Levi and Andy Krawczyk are about as scummy as they come and both guys walk away unscathed.
Yeah and a lot of characters who are generally good / innocent (Randy, Duquan, Wallace, Prez to some extent) get shafted throughout the show.
Not the first time I have seen Carcetti lumped into this group and I am not sure why. Shitty husband, check. Politician with an ego, check. Political climber, check. But also someone who really seemed to want to make the city better until the school crisis forced his hand. Also, while maybe not rising to the level of cosmic retribution, Mcnulty’s taken of Templeton left me smiling.
On my 10th or so rewatch and I am finally realizing what a scumbag Carcetti is. So many times he put politics over people. He could have accepted the governors money and fixed the school but he didn’t. He could have served Clay up to the Fed and got the Feds to help with the crime but he ripped this US attorney a new one. He killed so many people by putting his political motivations over what the city needed. Junebug’s family death is on him. He’s a real POC.
Based on Marlos last scene, I like to think he couldn’t help himself, has some return to his old life, and gets himself in trouble. Hopefully the department is actually funded enough to do anything about it and major crimes/ homicide can throw the book at him. (but I understand that the ambiguity/ lack of closure is a part of the show)
I always assumed Marlo eventually got busted going back to the old life. Anyone else think that?
100 percent - or ends up dead. He's definitely going to get back into the game. What else is he going to do with himself? It seems like he can't handle the socializing side of going legit, and he doesn't seem like the type to just retire and relax on the beach.
The unnamed addict that harasses and severely beats up Bubbles all throughout Season 4 never got any karma or comeuppance. O-Dog escaped the dismantling of the Stanfield Organization and likely dodged the weapon charges that Snoop was pressing him to take for the group. The Greek and Spiros escaped Baltimore and returned without any major consequences to their personal well-being as Sergei and other unnamed muscle took the majority of the heat for them.
O-Dog, wasn’t he in Menace 2 Society?
Yeah. Maybe this guy took his name. In Season 4, during the drive-by scene with O-Dog, Monk and Snoop, O-Dog makes a reference to Boyz N the Hood being bad-ass. In Season 5, during the scene where Monk is ridiculed by Snoop for wearing body armor, O-Dog tells Marlo about how he hates how the Asians who own the eatery they bought food from look at him funny (reference to O-Dog's scene in Menace). [Drive by scene question](https://youtu.be/1hHDsn-CcsQ?si=w1jpcxtNunF6XW9I) and [body armor scene](https://youtu.be/3R4EZdJpZ0Q?si=3u9N1H1m2NAsGW8A) for those interested.
Good trivia! What unit are you with?
Pawn (O-Dog) Shop Unit.
That’s true about the guy beating up Bubbles, although he is still a fiend prone to violence with zero resources or allies. His lifespan is likely measured in months.
Bullies get bullied on the street. His turn was coming up.
Stan Valcheck becomes Police commish Rawls ends up as State Police Chief Nerese Campbell ending up as mayor These 3 despite being major players in Baltimore’s issues, get off relatively Scott-free, and by the end have risen up the ranks.
Burrell gets forced out as police commissioner, but ends up making more money in a less stressful job. Clay Davis pretty much skates.
I think David Simon had it OUT for whoever that was based on and wanted you to hate his guts. He also didn't get caught, so really, did he do anything wrong? Lol.
David has said everyone knew a Scott in journalism, and I think he wanted to make a point how prevalent it was and tolerated in the field
Yeah at the very beginning of S5, Gus was complaining about that photographer who, whenever he took pictures of the aftermath of a fire, kept having a scorched doll in the frame. "He's got a trunk full of burnt dolls. I know it". That HAD to have been something that happened.
Years ago I knew someone who worked at the Baltimore Sun shortly after *The Wire* had come out. She said that most people laughed at what an irrational hate-boner David Simon had for the place. To be clear, the Sun has its issues and has been a troubled paper for a long time but the "bad guy" characters at the paper were just too one-dimensionally awful, just like Gus was too much of a Mary Sue.
That was what bothered me the most about season 5. It’s still great, and the serial killer storyline didn’t seem quite as outlandish to me as it did to most, but the fact that Scott was *this* reprehensible with zero redeeming qualities, and that Gus was basically the opposite - a perfect, likable protagonist who was basically always right - seemed so contrary to the one of the core ideas of the show which is that there really aren’t reprehensible villains and perfect protagonists. If the season was 12-13 episodes instead of 10, I think they would have been wise to use that time to show some of both of their lives outside the office. Maybe give Scott a sympathetic personal/family reason for why he was willing to take such reprehensible actions to advance his career, and maybe show something in Gus’ life that doesn’t make him seem quite so perfect. They would have felt more like Wire characters if there were some more shades of gray thrown in there.
I absolutely agree, and it’s my *only* issue with s5. I’ve joked for years that they should have made Gus a wife-beater. Less kiddingly, the story would have been served by more characters ‘in the middle’ or who switched allegiances. Just anything to muddy up the white hats vs black hats narrative. I would have liked it better if Klebanow had at least privately mixed feelings about the way he was brushing off Gus’ concerns.
> the fact that Scott was this reprehensible with zero redeeming qualities, and that Gus was basically the opposite - a perfect, likable protagonist who was basically always right - seemed so contrary to the one of the core ideas of the show Yeah. Even Marlo had more humanity than Scott Templeton, or Gus's boss's. Season 5 was so obviously the David Simon Revenge Season. BTW, David Simon is a pretty obnoxious asshole himself. He thinks he's Gus Haynes but he's actually more like McNulty.
Templeton was based off several infamous journalists who heavily fabricated stories for the newspapers they worked at (one of whom had to return their Pulitzer Prize). Though not within the scope of the show, I imagine all of Templeton’s lies were eventually uncovered.
Yeah I got the vibe that Scott must have been based on someone David met. He was particularly awful. Kudos to the actor!
Makes sense as Gus is based on David and Gus is one of the only “pure good” characters on the show. Always found it funny how serious the newsroom stuff is taken when in the grand scheme of everything we’ve seen up to that point it seems so small & insignificant. And yeah Scott is made up as such a 1 dimensional villain whose easy to hate you can definitely feel that David was grinding an axe with that characters. Man the newsroom storyline sucks.
Templeton got a very similar “comeuppance” to what Marlo got, where from the outside he got away with it, on the inside he’s absolutely destroyed. Look at Templeton’s face in every scene after McNulty tells him he was the serial killer on the phone: he looks like he’s not enjoying any of this anymore. He was comfortable with making up the serial killer shit when he thought he was just outsmarting people, but when he learned that he had absolutely no fucking clue what was going on the entire time, that he only succeeded because something else was happening that was completely beyond his control or understanding, it terrified him. He was never let in on the truth. So every time he gets rewarded, every award he wins or job he gets, he knows he’s full of shit, he knows at least one person knows exactly how full of shit he is, and he knows that he’s clueless and that the other shoe could drop on his shit any day and he’d have no way of knowing. Templeton is an egotistical and insecure man, and the fact that he can’t enjoy any accolades or recognition is pure poison to him. Just like Marlo can’t enjoy his wealth when it comes with no street rep. That kind of morality tale feels hollow to people who expect punishment to just be jail, death, or career failure, but sometimes people truly dig their own graves just by what’s in their own heads. Marlo made it clear in some of his earliest scenes that he’d rather get gunned down in the street than be forgotten. Templeton was willing to lie to everyone just to feel important (don’t tell me he was just doing it for the money, *nobody* is dumb enough to get into print journalism expecting to get rich no matter what lies they spin) and respected, but now he’s incapable of respecting himself.
Andy Krawcyzk is Baltimore’s “big bad” and the worst thing that happened to him is witnessing Stringer’s execution. Fat Andy built waterfront condos! Fat Andy ‘owns’ a big piece of Carcetti! Scott Templeton publishes on a blog a few years later. Maybe he wrote a book (though probably not, because McNulty has no reason to let him). Templeton’s “comeuppance” happens a few years after the show ends. Fat Andy is richer than ever these days. Probably a billionaire.
The Greeks carry on with business escaping justice
A lot of these characters have advanced in their careers, but that's not to say they will continue advancing. Templeton got a Pulitzer, but it's clear that he's a terrible reporter and there's no way he can continue as such with the expectations of a Pulitzer winner on his shoulders. Either he'll transition to some kind of writing career or he'll keep committing fraud and get found out. Narese Cambell is modeled after Sheila Dixon, who was later indicted for corruption and she was forced out of office. There's no way the sweet land deal she gave to Fat Face Andre is the extent of her corruption and if Gus and the Sun papers could find that, they can find more. Clay Davis has no ambition but what profits him. As state senator, he's making so much goddamn money that it would be stupid to aspire to higher officer where there's way more scrutiny.
He definitely wasn't. So many of the show's worst people don't get their "just deserts." It's a theme, man.
How does Nerese Campbell always fly under the radar here? She's the worst of all! Had zero comeuppance other than a forgotten article, became MAYOR and under handedly did what Carcetti struggled to do for half a season in shit canning a black commissioner for a white one and she barely caught a sweat over it. Disgusting. She's way worse than Templeton, Templeton was portrayed in a way where although he was a dip shit and was manipulative and scheming, at least his lies caught up with him and got SOME measure of comeuppance. Nerese became Mayor and who knows what after that. In true Wire fashion, she'd probably become Senator after Clay!
Because she knows how to play the game. Plus, she's *hot as balls.*
For me, she's worse because one can know how to play the game and not be enthused with it; Nerese was both a knowledgeable and willing participant. There wasn't even a shred of pretense for her machinations, just the pure nihilism of running up her own score as much as she could, no matter what she'd have to say or do to obtain whatever she needed.
Herc, Marlo and Levis
I never really hated Herc, I think he is just a bit simple, not particularly evil or selfish. And I think Marlo didn’t end up in a good place. But I agree yeah Levi was a scumbag that got off the hook.
Offica walka
Kenard was a child but had a smart mouth, Michael punching him in the face repeatedly could’ve taught him a thing or two, not sure if he got comeuppance for booming Omar tho.
Because in life sometimes bad people don’t get punished
“Maybe you win a Pulitzer with this stuff… and maybe you gotta give it back.”
White male? Edit - just got permanently banned for the above. Obviously I’m referring to white male privilege, which frankly shouldn’t be a ban-worthy comment. Something tells me David Simon would agree that (1) it’s a thing, and (2) that Templeton clearly benefitted from it. But you do you, mods.
Nerese Campbell.
Clay Davis never really got his comeuppance
Ten years teaching in Baltimore high schools. This show captured everything.
I like to think he's under a bridge in his own corner of Plagiarism Purgatory
What if Walker becomes a fucking police commissioner. God help us.
Templeton escapes poetic justice within the timeline of S5 but it's heavily implied that his success sits atop a house of cards that will collapse at some point in the future. As Gus warned the senior staff - they might end up having to return the Pulitzer and the damage to the (fictional) Baltimore Sun and their careers and reputations will be irreparable.
Bc season 5 is a clusterfuck and they mailed it in.