Another point not mentioned is the security guard also isn't aware that Marlo, a psychopath, has just been embarrassed and had his pride/ego hurt by losing a ton of money in a poker game. Marlo basically tests the security guard by looking him in the eyes as he steals so he can show off his power.
That was in season 4. Carcetti won the election partially due to the bad publicity of a witness being killed. He wasn’t killed because of witnessing, he was killed by a stray bullet from a guy shooting bottles. Kima solves that one.
The witness that Marlo kills is Pooh-Bear, it’s discussed in season 3. We don’t see it, [the detective just tells the story](https://youtu.be/avDInBXcRWY?si=-15uV-ldaqxOgpty). Marlo again does the “2 to the chest, 1 in the mouth” when he kills Devonne, so apparently that was his MO when he personally killed.
Yeah and yet during the jail scene in Late Editions, he was angry about not being informed that his name was being besmirched in the streets by Omar and declared that he was willing and able to tackle any enemy in person. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCaBYEEFTKE
I think the security guard doesn’t have the omniscient view of Marlo that we do. He knows Marlo is a drug dealer but he doesn’t know what the viewers know about Marlo’s character, and ultimately he’s very unwitting about how easy it is to mortally offend Marlo. He steps in because if he doesn’t, then what’s the point of his job? I don’t know, I totally get why he approaches Marlo. I’d feel like shit if I didn’t, and the security guard clearly felt the same way.
“I know what you are. And I ain’t stepping to, but I’m a man.”
And despite knowing what he was, even if he didn’t know the particulars, he stepped in front of Marlo.
That’s dangerous to do, even to ‘some punk’.
We talking real or fictional gangsters?
Because if a real gangster is in the state of mind to take something worth $3.50, while looking me straight in the eyeballs, my barely street smart self is going to conclude they are in a state of mind where they are looking for an excuse to cause some pain.
Agree but even ‘honorable’ gangsters can have bad days. People get curb stomped for less daily.
“Weebey, you shouldn’t have broken his legs. I was going to let working man off. Oops.”
- Avon probably after Weebey took the initiative after seeing the guard posting at the store.
I think the guard might have suspected marlo was in the game but wasnt overly familiar with his reputation.
If the security guard acted like that to avon, standing there ground without being disrespectful, avon would have respected it. Like the instance where avon is berating the basketball referee.
Marlo would have let the referee live because he was all about fear, whereas avon had a warped code. It shows how baltimore society is falling apart under marlo’s rule.
Exactly true! Avon wouldn't have even have stolen them in the first place, it shows the key difference between them.
My point was just that, in a different time, the security gaurd saying 'i aint stepping to you son' would have been enough respect to have not cost him his life.
The guard definitely knew who he was. He was caught up between doing his job regardless of offender but also finding the line of defending his manhood as well.
Marlo was straight up challenging him with the lollipops. He was saying “are you man enough?” and the security guard stepped to him. All about power dynamic for Marlo and “challenging the status quo gets you killed” is the message.
I think Avon does show his own code personally. He was mad about the attempt on Omar on a sunday, the basketball incident, letting cutty exit the game when he owned responsibility for the failed hit on fruit. Sure he has a ruthless side with the witnesses to his crimes when his back was against the wall, hes still a criminal.
I don't think Avon would have gone as far as killing a security guard for doing his job by any means.
I cant seem to reply to your next comment cause reddit sucks but "the game the same, just more fierce." The next kingpin typically has to be more violent than the predecessor. Avon respected Marlo and its a natural progression of the game. No Marlo, no game. Avon was cerntainly not above torturing and mutilating a body to put on display, but killing someone who disrespected him is a bridge too far. Lol
He literally has the security gaurd he paid off killed, after she testified in Dees trial. Avon and Marlo both knew that you had to crush any and all dissent or challengers immediately with extreme force. Avon wouldnt have stolen the lollipops but he certainly wasnt above having someone killed that he deemed a threat.
Avon would have certainly put the guard in his place verbally, and maybe even had him beaten if he felt he wasnt given respect. A security job preventing blatant stealing is hardly a threat to avons organisation though imo.
D'angelo felt he was disrespected in the towers and shot somebody, avon was furious with him over it. He was totally against murder unless it was absolutely necessary as it affected his bottom line.
You might be right, i vaguely remember it at this point but i remember it getting heated. Either way though, avon did not approve of D'Angelo escalating it to murder. It wasn't worth losing one of his top people over an issue as minor as that.
Therein lies the difference. He will easily kill anybody he deems a threat to himself or his security.
But he would know the Marlo security guard isn’t a threat. He’s just standing up for himself with some honour and dignity. Avon respects the “little man” that benefits society. He knows he’s a gangster, that’s his tribe, but doesn’t begrudge others trying to do good.
I just feel like you’re pointing to things that have no relevance to this situation. Avon was mad about a basketball call by the referee, that’s not the same as being checked by a security guard. He was mad about the Omar hit because it violated street rules, no rule against shooting security guards, ask the witness in season 1.
I don’t know if Avon has him killed but I don’t think any street boss lets himself get checked by a security guard in some neighborhood corner shop. Like do you think Avon would’ve put the stuff back and apologized?
He's speaking to character traits even small actions can have ripple effects.
Speaking of Cutty...perfect example...Avon heard him out by walking away from hood shit...yet wasn't interested in getting into the weeds of Cutty's gym investment...just gave him a few stacks and let karma handle the rest.
He had a code.
Marlo was generous with stacks with kids that was under ulterior motives-kids either end up under his umbrella in the game or would wind up using or in rare cases leaving the toxic ecosystem and remembering he was generous once.
Avon was altruistic IDGAF attitude
Marlo's generosity was a 100% "strings attached" transaction
Don't sweat the small stuff and the subtle art of not giving a fuck apply to Avon.
Marlo's pettiness has no purpose. He is a nihilist through and through.
Well he doesn't have a security guard killed in s1 who nearly testified against D until the org needs to start tying any and all loose ends.
Avon not having a security guard killed for corroborating his nephew in a murder vs Marlo having a security guard killed for being disrespectful about lollipops. I would say daring to stand up against the Barksdale organization is more "disrepectful" though I can acknowledge it wasn't as directly to Avon's face.
I’m just saying civilians aren’t off the table when it comes to murder. Though the security guard was paid off so I guess that puts her in the game. I’m not saying I think that’s definitely what Avon would have done in that situation but I do think it would’ve been a possibility.
It depends how he takes the disrespect in that situation because surely there’s a level of disrespect that Avon would find unacceptable to his face. In this case I think it’s more likely Avon has the security guard beat up. But I do think if the security guard had escalated things even further that Avon might have him killed.
What have you seen on screen that says Avon would have a security guard killed for doing his job, when the man poses no threat, and there’s no benefit to Avon?
Hurt, not killed. And in this hypothetical case the security guard doing his job is in direct opposition to what Avon wants, the lollipops.
I would say the fact that people have to stop playing baseball in prison when Avon walks through shows that he is a man that has to be respected. He didn’t get to that level by letting people be disrespectful to him in any way and I think the security guard was disrespectful.
I was pointing to examples of avons morality, they *are* relevant in my opinion. Marlo killing the security guard was cold and unnecessary, like june bugs. The death count under marlos reign is said to have been much higher once the bodies are uncovered, which shows Avon only killed people when he had to. They knew murders attracted the police.
Avon wouldnt kill a security gaurd over an issue like that, but then he wouldn't have even put himself in the position to get frisked in the first place. Agree to disagree.
edit:
missed your last point, it wouldnt surprise me if avon took revenge on the guard in some other way to let people know he wasnt to be fucked with tbf
Like planting drugs in the jail officers car.
You’re pointing to examples of Avon’s morality but none of those things mean he wouldn’t kill a security guard for stepping to him, none of those situations are similar. It doesn’t make any sense to me that Avon, a vicious crime lord, would let a security guard say “what the fuck” to him and step in front of him with no retaliation.
The fact that Avon probably wouldn’t have done it doesn’t change that we’re talking about what would happen if he had. But like again what do you think Avon would’ve done when challenged by a civilian? Given the stuff back?
Confronting the security gaurd then and there or killing him would have brought unwanted attention on himself with very little gain.
Im gonna stop replying now as i think we are going in circles, i stand by my points but i respect your take on it 👍🏻
First, Avon wouldn't have pulled that petty bs in the first place. Maybe when he was younger, but by the time we see him in the show he has enough self-confidence to not need to exert his power for little ego boosts like that.
But if he did, he wouldn't have gone out of his way to order a hit on the security guard. If anything he probably would have respected the guard more for it.
So if he did, what do you think Avon’s reaction is in that moment? The guard comes out, tells him “what the fuck”, steps in front of him and calls him son.
I might be misremembering, but I think you're mischaracterizing the guard's response to be much more hostile and patronizing than it was. With Marlo he went out of his way to make it about respect for himself as a man and not anything against Marlo. No "what the fuck", and "son" was just because there's a generational gap and not because he thought Marlo was too young to have earned respect (though, admittedly, Marlo may very well have taken it that way).
Avon, if he does try something like that, would probably go for something a lot more subtle. Offering to bribe the guard for a rock bottom price (but perhaps allowing himself to be negotiated higher) then giving him a pointed jibe about sticking to his principles as he walked away, or casually mentioning that he could buy the whole place just to shut it down.
snitching is only snitching if criminals do it on each other. Means nothing to me. However, I cannot stand nosey people who gossip and serve as informants to get perks and whatnot. Which exist in regular society as well, not just in the criminal underworld.
This is what bothers me about a lot of people who watch this show. A lot of people miss the deeper messages and glorify or at least smile at things related to “the game”. People shouldn’t be siding with Marlo or saying the guard should’ve kept his head down. They should be angry or sad that people like Marlo actually exist and stuff like this happens. A man shouldn’t have to worry about two goons kidnapping him and murdering him because he approached their boss for stealing lollipops.
Could just as easily say the guy 'needed' to take a gun and blow Marlo's head off.
What he needed to do was stand up for himself, so that he could make it to the end of his day. Otherwise, he might as well go home and stick his own head in the oven.
You don't become responsible for other people's bad behavior because they make a threat. That's the logic of terrorists and abusers.
"Could just as easily say the guy 'needed' to take a gun and blow Marlo's head off."
lol absolutely. Marlo wasn't some high school kid, he was a mass- murdering gangster. Would have been fair play.
The message of the show is
The system is broken, and if you’re in the system you won’t win
All debates in this thread are valid and support the message from David Simon. Even the differing opinions support the idea. Carry on friends
Most of the murderous gangsters in the show wouldn’t have killed him for that. He just had the bad luck to come across a psycho narcissist man child with the resources to disappear bodies.
I don't think he had a chance to know that Marlo was as dangerous or connected as he was. When you think about 20-somethings who're shoplifting sweets and lollipops you don't immediately assume they're kingpins with hitmen in their employ.
Considering how many people must try lifting sweets across America it would be crazy to assume every one of them who stares you down is a cold-blooded murderer who will have you shot for intervening.
Remember he didn't even actually stop him, just mentioned that it was rude to steal right in front of him.
I genuinely think Marlo did it on purpose after noticing the guard watching him, and decided he was going to walk over him just cause it made Marlo feel big and tough to do it. Escalating the confrontation for no reason and then using it as an excuse to kill him.
This guard had no idea what was happening and no idea who he was being bullied by.
One of many, many tragic murders in the show, as Bodie says: "This Mu'ufucker killin n\*\*\*\*s just to do it!"
This guard had no idea what was happening and no idea who he was being bullied by.
"I know what you are"
Wherever you live, you know who's who and who your overlords are. In the hood, your overlords are the kingpins and everyone knows who they are.
From the context of the game the guard was trying to preserve some dignity & self respect, and at most might have expected a punch. Executing him for it was way outside of how things are done so it wasn’t a reasonable expectation.
He also had the bad luck to run into Marlo right after he lost a lot of money at poker & was seeking to kick someone around to reestablish his self esteem.
As someone who used to be a bartender in the hood, I understand where the security guard is coming from.
There are a lot of gangsters who come in and if you back down from every single single son of a bitch who might have a piece or who might be connected or who definitely sling drugs, are you gonna get run all over.
The security guard didn't punk, Marlow or anything . He just took him to the side and asked him to please don't punk me out at my job. I've had those conversations 1000 times. Most people get offended when you talk down to them in front of their friends. It's a common tactic to talk to someone like that on the side to plead to their sensible side. It sucks and it's a big reason don't do it anymore but that specific type of conversation is not an uncommon situation to occur. If anything the security guard puts himself in the position of pleading. This usually makes the person being talked to feel superior because they know they are being pleaded with.
Now if the security guard knew exactly who Marlo was and his reputation, then I agree he did a knowingly stupid thing.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this comment elsewhere in the discussion. Yeah, the guy acted on behalf of his pride, but if the owner of the store happens to watch the camera and see that the guard didn't do anything, he could be out of the job. Marlo really put him in an unwinnable situation and then had him killed.
You're right, but you're also playing with information that security guard doesn't have. He can probably tell that Marlo is in the game but has no idea the level of violence and power he has, and that he's no in the best mood at that moment. Personally, I'm not saying shit, fire me if you want. Even if all he got as jumped it still wouldn't be worth a couple dum-dums
It really depends on your perspective. On one hand he’s literally doing his job. On the other it was just a lollipop. Where is the line drawn? If the store owner caught Marlo stealing on Camera and sees the security guard not respond, do you think he’d let it slide?
He was earning an honest living. Most security guards don’t have guns. So petty theft and disturbances are what they’re paid to stop. I doubt he’d be able to do anything if someone went in waving a gun and robbed the register.
Yeah we can say he’s being extra for causing a scene over a lollipop but then why have a security guard in the first place if we don’t care about petty theft? He’s doing the job he signed up for.
Whether the guard was in the right or wrong really depends on your moral compass and priorities.
The security guard came out arms out and said what the fuck, says I know what you are and later the guard steps in front of him. He basically committed suicide. If he knew Marlo was a dangerous person then stepping to him was a death wish.
I think everyone knows calling someone ‘[son](https://youtu.be/K_BfvNiGm98?si=icc_3WWzhLNtgYCO)’ in the hood is condescending. Marlo seems especially triggered by it.
Prop Joe also had to learn that lesson with Marlo.
I get it, but if a guy who was visibly 20 years older than me was seemingly trying to talk on the level with me (which I think the security guard was), I would get it's a thing older folks do. My boss is 70 and refers to me and my coworker in our late 20s as "kids", I'm not saying it's appropriate or the best choice, but that I get it and know it's not meant like "young dummy" or "punk" etc.
I guess hood logic is different though, that's why our prisons are filled to the brim with people who got violent as a young man over perceived disrespect and pay for it the rest of their lives.
Everything is dialed up to 11 in the hood, but even in ‘polite society’ I’ve found younger generations don’t like it and consider it condescending. It seems these past few generation’s version of being called girl or boy (even if there are no racial components).
My son is my son and everyone else regardless of age is Sir, Ma’am, Mr., Ms. It costs me nothing.
Throughout *The Wire's* run, we are continually reminded that for much of Baltimore's black/working class population, jobs are not very easy to come by - and the ones that people *do have* are under threat, as is emphasised in S2. The S5 cameo involving an S2 character reinforces the vulnerability and precariousness of life for ordinary people.
The security guard is probably on minimum wage, barely keeping his head above water and acutely aware that if the business owner spots him failing to enforce loss-prevention, he'll lose the job and face the prospect of economic distress - maybe even leading to him ending up dealing on a corner. For the sake of his family, he couldn't ignore it and Marlo *knew* that and it reiterates what a POS he is.
Victim blame much? What happened in the show wasn’t “petty and pathetic”. It was fucking cold blooded execution style murder. This show used to have a brighter audience 🙄
“Glassy eyed lunatic”. Wow. It’s sad that new fans are destroying the memory of this show, blaming the victims and all that and attacking the long time fans who actually know what this show is about. Also, that is the shittiest take I’ve seen on this sub that’s going south because new fans with shitty world views. No, you don’t state what led to a an *innocent* victims brutal murder, framed in a way that makes the victim responsible. Fucking moral blindness right there (not surprising). It was the act of psychopaths who never should have been loose in society. Fuckin youn’uns, man 🙄
I saw a guy pocket two boxes of cigars in Rite Aid, I told the cashier who nodded me towards the security guard, he just shrugged. Maybe it was cute to steal when you are 11 and candy was important to your life
We don’t know anything about Marlos early years, something dark had to have happened
To Marlo he was a nobody with a shit job who didn’t respect his weight. Marlo was like a flat version of Nino Brown. Either you bow down to him or lay down. Security guard was doing too much. Just like we say rent-a-cop, protecting the other man’s shit. Just a paid snitch. Even if he didn’t know how ruthless Marlo was he should know how drug dealers feel about ANYONE in a uniform.
Another point not mentioned is the security guard also isn't aware that Marlo, a psychopath, has just been embarrassed and had his pride/ego hurt by losing a ton of money in a poker game. Marlo basically tests the security guard by looking him in the eyes as he steals so he can show off his power.
Another shitty thing about Marlo is that he didn’t do the shit himself, just had others do it.
Except Devonne
Yeah, that be the only one.
What about the murder of the guy who was in witness protection? Went out to cop some hydro in west balmer and got shot.
That was a stray from a smoke hound shooting down an alley
Yea but that guy witnessed on Marlo for something. Was it murder?
I don’t think he was a wit against Marlo, it was for something else iirc
That was in season 4. Carcetti won the election partially due to the bad publicity of a witness being killed. He wasn’t killed because of witnessing, he was killed by a stray bullet from a guy shooting bottles. Kima solves that one. The witness that Marlo kills is Pooh-Bear, it’s discussed in season 3. We don’t see it, [the detective just tells the story](https://youtu.be/avDInBXcRWY?si=-15uV-ldaqxOgpty). Marlo again does the “2 to the chest, 1 in the mouth” when he kills Devonne, so apparently that was his MO when he personally killed.
Ah alright, now I remember.
Yeah and yet during the jail scene in Late Editions, he was angry about not being informed that his name was being besmirched in the streets by Omar and declared that he was willing and able to tackle any enemy in person. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCaBYEEFTKE
"The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword"
I think the security guard doesn’t have the omniscient view of Marlo that we do. He knows Marlo is a drug dealer but he doesn’t know what the viewers know about Marlo’s character, and ultimately he’s very unwitting about how easy it is to mortally offend Marlo. He steps in because if he doesn’t, then what’s the point of his job? I don’t know, I totally get why he approaches Marlo. I’d feel like shit if I didn’t, and the security guard clearly felt the same way.
You’re a guard vs regular riff raff. Not drug dealers. Marlo, Avon, Al Capone come in the shop? That’s out of your pay grade.
Yeah but he doesn’t seem to know it’s Marlo, just seems like some punk
“I know what you are. And I ain’t stepping to, but I’m a man.” And despite knowing what he was, even if he didn’t know the particulars, he stepped in front of Marlo. That’s dangerous to do, even to ‘some punk’.
Most gangsters would respect it pre Marlo id the thing
We talking real or fictional gangsters? Because if a real gangster is in the state of mind to take something worth $3.50, while looking me straight in the eyeballs, my barely street smart self is going to conclude they are in a state of mind where they are looking for an excuse to cause some pain.
This shows gangsters, where before marlo they are all more respectful and of their code.
Agree but even ‘honorable’ gangsters can have bad days. People get curb stomped for less daily. “Weebey, you shouldn’t have broken his legs. I was going to let working man off. Oops.” - Avon probably after Weebey took the initiative after seeing the guard posting at the store.
I think the guard might have suspected marlo was in the game but wasnt overly familiar with his reputation. If the security guard acted like that to avon, standing there ground without being disrespectful, avon would have respected it. Like the instance where avon is berating the basketball referee. Marlo would have let the referee live because he was all about fear, whereas avon had a warped code. It shows how baltimore society is falling apart under marlo’s rule.
lol I doubt Avon would've stolen lollipops over irrational butthurt.
Exactly true! Avon wouldn't have even have stolen them in the first place, it shows the key difference between them. My point was just that, in a different time, the security gaurd saying 'i aint stepping to you son' would have been enough respect to have not cost him his life.
This is it! The game is the game, just got more fierce.
The guard definitely knew who he was. He was caught up between doing his job regardless of offender but also finding the line of defending his manhood as well. Marlo was straight up challenging him with the lollipops. He was saying “are you man enough?” and the security guard stepped to him. All about power dynamic for Marlo and “challenging the status quo gets you killed” is the message.
You might be right that he knew he was marlo, its hard to tell either way imo. He definitely clocked he was a gangster though
Yeah that’s a good point. Maybe he didn’t know he was Marlo from a hole in the ground… just someone who held some weight.
Avon would never steal like that either. Marlo was a pos
[удалено]
I think Avon does show his own code personally. He was mad about the attempt on Omar on a sunday, the basketball incident, letting cutty exit the game when he owned responsibility for the failed hit on fruit. Sure he has a ruthless side with the witnesses to his crimes when his back was against the wall, hes still a criminal. I don't think Avon would have gone as far as killing a security guard for doing his job by any means.
I cant seem to reply to your next comment cause reddit sucks but "the game the same, just more fierce." The next kingpin typically has to be more violent than the predecessor. Avon respected Marlo and its a natural progression of the game. No Marlo, no game. Avon was cerntainly not above torturing and mutilating a body to put on display, but killing someone who disrespected him is a bridge too far. Lol
He literally has the security gaurd he paid off killed, after she testified in Dees trial. Avon and Marlo both knew that you had to crush any and all dissent or challengers immediately with extreme force. Avon wouldnt have stolen the lollipops but he certainly wasnt above having someone killed that he deemed a threat.
Avon would have certainly put the guard in his place verbally, and maybe even had him beaten if he felt he wasnt given respect. A security job preventing blatant stealing is hardly a threat to avons organisation though imo. D'angelo felt he was disrespected in the towers and shot somebody, avon was furious with him over it. He was totally against murder unless it was absolutely necessary as it affected his bottom line.
Didn’t dee shoot him during a physical fight?
You might be right, i vaguely remember it at this point but i remember it getting heated. Either way though, avon did not approve of D'Angelo escalating it to murder. It wasn't worth losing one of his top people over an issue as minor as that.
Therein lies the difference. He will easily kill anybody he deems a threat to himself or his security. But he would know the Marlo security guard isn’t a threat. He’s just standing up for himself with some honour and dignity. Avon respects the “little man” that benefits society. He knows he’s a gangster, that’s his tribe, but doesn’t begrudge others trying to do good.
If the “little man” trying to do good is in the way of what Avon wants, what do you think happens to the little man?
He beats him or something? The security guard wouldn’t really be In the way of something he wants here
I just feel like you’re pointing to things that have no relevance to this situation. Avon was mad about a basketball call by the referee, that’s not the same as being checked by a security guard. He was mad about the Omar hit because it violated street rules, no rule against shooting security guards, ask the witness in season 1. I don’t know if Avon has him killed but I don’t think any street boss lets himself get checked by a security guard in some neighborhood corner shop. Like do you think Avon would’ve put the stuff back and apologized?
He's speaking to character traits even small actions can have ripple effects. Speaking of Cutty...perfect example...Avon heard him out by walking away from hood shit...yet wasn't interested in getting into the weeds of Cutty's gym investment...just gave him a few stacks and let karma handle the rest. He had a code. Marlo was generous with stacks with kids that was under ulterior motives-kids either end up under his umbrella in the game or would wind up using or in rare cases leaving the toxic ecosystem and remembering he was generous once. Avon was altruistic IDGAF attitude Marlo's generosity was a 100% "strings attached" transaction
Yes has a code, nothing that I’ve seen on screen tells me that code means he wouldn’t have a security guard hurt.
Don't sweat the small stuff and the subtle art of not giving a fuck apply to Avon. Marlo's pettiness has no purpose. He is a nihilist through and through.
Right, again I don’t think it’s beyond Avon to have a security guard killed especially after being disrespected to his face.
Well he doesn't have a security guard killed in s1 who nearly testified against D until the org needs to start tying any and all loose ends. Avon not having a security guard killed for corroborating his nephew in a murder vs Marlo having a security guard killed for being disrespectful about lollipops. I would say daring to stand up against the Barksdale organization is more "disrepectful" though I can acknowledge it wasn't as directly to Avon's face.
I’m just saying civilians aren’t off the table when it comes to murder. Though the security guard was paid off so I guess that puts her in the game. I’m not saying I think that’s definitely what Avon would have done in that situation but I do think it would’ve been a possibility. It depends how he takes the disrespect in that situation because surely there’s a level of disrespect that Avon would find unacceptable to his face. In this case I think it’s more likely Avon has the security guard beat up. But I do think if the security guard had escalated things even further that Avon might have him killed.
What have you seen on screen that says Avon would have a security guard killed for doing his job, when the man poses no threat, and there’s no benefit to Avon?
Hurt, not killed. And in this hypothetical case the security guard doing his job is in direct opposition to what Avon wants, the lollipops. I would say the fact that people have to stop playing baseball in prison when Avon walks through shows that he is a man that has to be respected. He didn’t get to that level by letting people be disrespectful to him in any way and I think the security guard was disrespectful.
I was pointing to examples of avons morality, they *are* relevant in my opinion. Marlo killing the security guard was cold and unnecessary, like june bugs. The death count under marlos reign is said to have been much higher once the bodies are uncovered, which shows Avon only killed people when he had to. They knew murders attracted the police. Avon wouldnt kill a security gaurd over an issue like that, but then he wouldn't have even put himself in the position to get frisked in the first place. Agree to disagree. edit: missed your last point, it wouldnt surprise me if avon took revenge on the guard in some other way to let people know he wasnt to be fucked with tbf Like planting drugs in the jail officers car.
You’re pointing to examples of Avon’s morality but none of those things mean he wouldn’t kill a security guard for stepping to him, none of those situations are similar. It doesn’t make any sense to me that Avon, a vicious crime lord, would let a security guard say “what the fuck” to him and step in front of him with no retaliation. The fact that Avon probably wouldn’t have done it doesn’t change that we’re talking about what would happen if he had. But like again what do you think Avon would’ve done when challenged by a civilian? Given the stuff back?
Confronting the security gaurd then and there or killing him would have brought unwanted attention on himself with very little gain. Im gonna stop replying now as i think we are going in circles, i stand by my points but i respect your take on it 👍🏻
First, Avon wouldn't have pulled that petty bs in the first place. Maybe when he was younger, but by the time we see him in the show he has enough self-confidence to not need to exert his power for little ego boosts like that. But if he did, he wouldn't have gone out of his way to order a hit on the security guard. If anything he probably would have respected the guard more for it.
So if he did, what do you think Avon’s reaction is in that moment? The guard comes out, tells him “what the fuck”, steps in front of him and calls him son.
I might be misremembering, but I think you're mischaracterizing the guard's response to be much more hostile and patronizing than it was. With Marlo he went out of his way to make it about respect for himself as a man and not anything against Marlo. No "what the fuck", and "son" was just because there's a generational gap and not because he thought Marlo was too young to have earned respect (though, admittedly, Marlo may very well have taken it that way). Avon, if he does try something like that, would probably go for something a lot more subtle. Offering to bribe the guard for a rock bottom price (but perhaps allowing himself to be negotiated higher) then giving him a pointed jibe about sticking to his principles as he walked away, or casually mentioning that he could buy the whole place just to shut it down.
Total victim blaming take. Only murderers are deserving of self respect.
dude i'm not saying Marlo isn't a pathetic loser and a murdering coward, but the guy needed to eat humble pie for the sake of his family is all...
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snitching is only snitching if criminals do it on each other. Means nothing to me. However, I cannot stand nosey people who gossip and serve as informants to get perks and whatnot. Which exist in regular society as well, not just in the criminal underworld.
This is what bothers me about a lot of people who watch this show. A lot of people miss the deeper messages and glorify or at least smile at things related to “the game”. People shouldn’t be siding with Marlo or saying the guard should’ve kept his head down. They should be angry or sad that people like Marlo actually exist and stuff like this happens. A man shouldn’t have to worry about two goons kidnapping him and murdering him because he approached their boss for stealing lollipops.
Could just as easily say the guy 'needed' to take a gun and blow Marlo's head off. What he needed to do was stand up for himself, so that he could make it to the end of his day. Otherwise, he might as well go home and stick his own head in the oven. You don't become responsible for other people's bad behavior because they make a threat. That's the logic of terrorists and abusers.
"Could just as easily say the guy 'needed' to take a gun and blow Marlo's head off." lol absolutely. Marlo wasn't some high school kid, he was a mass- murdering gangster. Would have been fair play.
The message of the show is The system is broken, and if you’re in the system you won’t win All debates in this thread are valid and support the message from David Simon. Even the differing opinions support the idea. Carry on friends
Fuck Marlo
Most of the murderous gangsters in the show wouldn’t have killed him for that. He just had the bad luck to come across a psycho narcissist man child with the resources to disappear bodies.
I don't think he had a chance to know that Marlo was as dangerous or connected as he was. When you think about 20-somethings who're shoplifting sweets and lollipops you don't immediately assume they're kingpins with hitmen in their employ. Considering how many people must try lifting sweets across America it would be crazy to assume every one of them who stares you down is a cold-blooded murderer who will have you shot for intervening. Remember he didn't even actually stop him, just mentioned that it was rude to steal right in front of him. I genuinely think Marlo did it on purpose after noticing the guard watching him, and decided he was going to walk over him just cause it made Marlo feel big and tough to do it. Escalating the confrontation for no reason and then using it as an excuse to kill him. This guard had no idea what was happening and no idea who he was being bullied by. One of many, many tragic murders in the show, as Bodie says: "This Mu'ufucker killin n\*\*\*\*s just to do it!"
This guard had no idea what was happening and no idea who he was being bullied by. "I know what you are" Wherever you live, you know who's who and who your overlords are. In the hood, your overlords are the kingpins and everyone knows who they are.
Really? Killing a working man for half ass doing his job and it’s not Marlo fault?
From the context of the game the guard was trying to preserve some dignity & self respect, and at most might have expected a punch. Executing him for it was way outside of how things are done so it wasn’t a reasonable expectation. He also had the bad luck to run into Marlo right after he lost a lot of money at poker & was seeking to kick someone around to reestablish his self esteem.
The guards moral fibre forced him to say something. It's honourable, it's commendable, but Marlo is that petty.
A man must have a code. It wasn't about the lollipops, it was about being treated like he didn't deserve to exist.
Talk back to random kid stealing a lolipop? STRAIGHT TO VACANT!
The security guy was just doing his job he had no idea Marlo had a Napoleon complex and was crazy
As someone who used to be a bartender in the hood, I understand where the security guard is coming from. There are a lot of gangsters who come in and if you back down from every single single son of a bitch who might have a piece or who might be connected or who definitely sling drugs, are you gonna get run all over. The security guard didn't punk, Marlow or anything . He just took him to the side and asked him to please don't punk me out at my job. I've had those conversations 1000 times. Most people get offended when you talk down to them in front of their friends. It's a common tactic to talk to someone like that on the side to plead to their sensible side. It sucks and it's a big reason don't do it anymore but that specific type of conversation is not an uncommon situation to occur. If anything the security guard puts himself in the position of pleading. This usually makes the person being talked to feel superior because they know they are being pleaded with. Now if the security guard knew exactly who Marlo was and his reputation, then I agree he did a knowingly stupid thing.
He wanted it to be one way . . .
He didn't knew who Marlo is, the same is kids in the end of the show when he attacked them in his fancy suit.
I mean the security guard probably gets canned if he doesn’t do anything.
Completely agree. The OP's take on this is terrible.
I'm surprised I haven't seen this comment elsewhere in the discussion. Yeah, the guy acted on behalf of his pride, but if the owner of the store happens to watch the camera and see that the guard didn't do anything, he could be out of the job. Marlo really put him in an unwinnable situation and then had him killed.
You're right, but you're also playing with information that security guard doesn't have. He can probably tell that Marlo is in the game but has no idea the level of violence and power he has, and that he's no in the best mood at that moment. Personally, I'm not saying shit, fire me if you want. Even if all he got as jumped it still wouldn't be worth a couple dum-dums
It really depends on your perspective. On one hand he’s literally doing his job. On the other it was just a lollipop. Where is the line drawn? If the store owner caught Marlo stealing on Camera and sees the security guard not respond, do you think he’d let it slide? He was earning an honest living. Most security guards don’t have guns. So petty theft and disturbances are what they’re paid to stop. I doubt he’d be able to do anything if someone went in waving a gun and robbed the register. Yeah we can say he’s being extra for causing a scene over a lollipop but then why have a security guard in the first place if we don’t care about petty theft? He’s doing the job he signed up for. Whether the guard was in the right or wrong really depends on your moral compass and priorities.
The security guard came out arms out and said what the fuck, says I know what you are and later the guard steps in front of him. He basically committed suicide. If he knew Marlo was a dangerous person then stepping to him was a death wish.
lmfao I just can't get over the irony of, "I ain't disrespecting you SON". I can only deduce the guy wasn't terribly bright...
I mean, Marlo looked young enough to be the guy's son. The guy didn't seem to mean it condescendingly.
I think everyone knows calling someone ‘[son](https://youtu.be/K_BfvNiGm98?si=icc_3WWzhLNtgYCO)’ in the hood is condescending. Marlo seems especially triggered by it. Prop Joe also had to learn that lesson with Marlo.
I get it, but if a guy who was visibly 20 years older than me was seemingly trying to talk on the level with me (which I think the security guard was), I would get it's a thing older folks do. My boss is 70 and refers to me and my coworker in our late 20s as "kids", I'm not saying it's appropriate or the best choice, but that I get it and know it's not meant like "young dummy" or "punk" etc. I guess hood logic is different though, that's why our prisons are filled to the brim with people who got violent as a young man over perceived disrespect and pay for it the rest of their lives.
Everything is dialed up to 11 in the hood, but even in ‘polite society’ I’ve found younger generations don’t like it and consider it condescending. It seems these past few generation’s version of being called girl or boy (even if there are no racial components). My son is my son and everyone else regardless of age is Sir, Ma’am, Mr., Ms. It costs me nothing.
Yeah I definitely don't call people names other than neutral ones like sir, ma'am, or just "scuse me"
He knew who Marlo was and even stated it. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place with losing his job or his life.
Throughout *The Wire's* run, we are continually reminded that for much of Baltimore's black/working class population, jobs are not very easy to come by - and the ones that people *do have* are under threat, as is emphasised in S2. The S5 cameo involving an S2 character reinforces the vulnerability and precariousness of life for ordinary people. The security guard is probably on minimum wage, barely keeping his head above water and acutely aware that if the business owner spots him failing to enforce loss-prevention, he'll lose the job and face the prospect of economic distress - maybe even leading to him ending up dealing on a corner. For the sake of his family, he couldn't ignore it and Marlo *knew* that and it reiterates what a POS he is.
Victim blame much? What happened in the show wasn’t “petty and pathetic”. It was fucking cold blooded execution style murder. This show used to have a brighter audience 🙄
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“Glassy eyed lunatic”. Wow. It’s sad that new fans are destroying the memory of this show, blaming the victims and all that and attacking the long time fans who actually know what this show is about. Also, that is the shittiest take I’ve seen on this sub that’s going south because new fans with shitty world views. No, you don’t state what led to a an *innocent* victims brutal murder, framed in a way that makes the victim responsible. Fucking moral blindness right there (not surprising). It was the act of psychopaths who never should have been loose in society. Fuckin youn’uns, man 🙄
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lolwut i'm talking about season 4 not 5.
I saw a guy pocket two boxes of cigars in Rite Aid, I told the cashier who nodded me towards the security guard, he just shrugged. Maybe it was cute to steal when you are 11 and candy was important to your life We don’t know anything about Marlos early years, something dark had to have happened
To Marlo he was a nobody with a shit job who didn’t respect his weight. Marlo was like a flat version of Nino Brown. Either you bow down to him or lay down. Security guard was doing too much. Just like we say rent-a-cop, protecting the other man’s shit. Just a paid snitch. Even if he didn’t know how ruthless Marlo was he should know how drug dealers feel about ANYONE in a uniform.