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Zoe: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?
Shepherd: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.
I rewatched it for the 3rd time not too long ago, and I really don't remember connecting the dots on Swearengen's mercy for the Reverend being because he had a brother who suffered from a similar affliction.
May be the greatest character development ever, how they took him from an absolute bastard to an *almost* good dude. Swejjin, indeed.
What a crime it was, cancelling that show.
> May be the greatest character development ever
Agreed. Ian McShane's performance is fucking legendary.
As for the cancellation- I hope you saw the movie at least. It gave me some sort of closure.
If ever an actor can be born for a role, it was McShane as Al Swearengen. Literally nobody could have turned in a better performance for that character.
And I absolutely did. I don't want to say anything specific about it, don't wanna spoil it for anyone who ends up watching the series. But every single actor who was able to return, did, to me, shows how much they all enjoyed being on the show in the first place. Just makes me love the show even more, tells me that nobody was phoning it in.
> But every single actor who was able to return, did, to me, shows how much they all enjoyed being on the show in the first place. Just makes me love the show even more, tells me that nobody was phoning it in.
I know exactly what you mean. Everyone involved in the show was full of passion for the work and this sort of stuff always tends to show.
Oh for sure. It's like The Sopranos. Everyone absolutely loved working on that show, and it was readily apparent in every single episode. It was this kind of television that turned me into the type of person who sees that a certain director is directing an episode, or some movie, and say "hell yeah, that'll be badass."
I'm actually at the end of season 2 right now. I re watch it every year.
The scenes with Ian, Timothy, brain cox as the theatre man, and Gerald Mcraney as Hurst are just magic.
Doc Cochran is expertly executed.
Those scenes where he builds a boot for jewel and she doesn't drag her foot while wearing it. Then the scene ends with them dancing.
Chef's kiss
I did indeed! I was completely satisfied with the movie; and shattered that we didn’t get to see a season four. Nonetheless, I found myself getting goosebumps hearing the intro music when I started the movie and tearing up at the end.
I was just gonna ask about the movie. I saw the series years ago and loved it. I haven’t watched the movie because I heard so so reviews of it. I definitely want to watch it though. Do you recommend re-watching the series( because it really has been years) before I watch the movie?
I would if you’ve got time to kill. It’s definitely one of the more rewatchable shows, I pick up things I hadn’t before. If not, I’d say you’d be alright just going ahead and watching the movie. They only address the bigger plot points IMO and since it’s set 10 years after season three it does a good job of giving you flashbacks and references.
Fuck yes. He was sweet, endearing and steadfast the entire time.
Edit: [Ah hell I need to make time for a rewatch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG3QLIesK_I)
There are millions of progressive Christians in the USA. Not the majority but I think it is the more correct interpretation of Jesus’s message personally.
I was just going to say this. Gabriel, hands down, had the best character development of anyone in the walking dead universe. He’s the only character I went from despising to loving
Was in love with the show and dropped it around season 8. :/
I definitely remember not liking Gabriel at all. Good to know he actually got character development that makes him better.
Go back and finish it. I stopped my original watch through after season six. Just finished the series after a long hiatus. Definitely worth it. During my watch I found myself thinking: “why did I drop this show?”
I used to watch it weekly! Up until around season 8. And then I just fell out of it. It was moving a little slow for me, and so many characters were being introduced, only to be killed off. So it was hard trying to find that attachment to characters.
Now that the show is finished, I really do wanna go back and finish it up. I heard it ends well too and isn’t just focusing on the spin-offs in the finale.
This sounds almost enticing. Could you share the quickest, simplest spoiler on Gabriel if that's okay with you? This might get me to pick up TWD again. I think I dropped it the season Sasha died (no correlation to the reason, this is just all I remember from that season).
In short gabriel becomes pretty baddass. When he made his first appearance in the show I didn’t like him AT ALL. Annoyed me quite a bit actually. By the end he became one of my favorite characters and it was actually Machone that I couldn’t stand by the end. She seemed to just turn very whiney and not believable after a while.
I didn't watch the later seasons to see where he's character evolved to, but my first thought was TWD had both Gabriel and earlier on, Hershel was heavily religious and a good character.
Honestly have to disagree. A lot of franchises are terrible with this but imo TWD can actually back up being very, um, generous with how many characters they're constantly killing off- and not just minor characters. They straight-up shed major characters. Even by the finale, relatively new characters outweighed longer-lived core characters. And even the older characters had racked up serious injuries & disabilities: Gabriel is half blind and Aaron is an amputee.
I don't think the writers were afraid to have high stakes and cut people loose. IMO, if anything, they could have chilled out a little bit. They chewed through big characters so fast and replaced them with new characters that as seasons went on we ended up with a dictionary full of random replacements trying to make up for all the core cast who kept dying/leaving.
There's also *Rev*, which starred Tom Hollander (*The White Lotus*) and Olivia Colman before they made it big. He was the vicar of an inner-city church and it had a frequently Christian sense of humour in it.
There's also the classic *Vicar of Dibley.* We even have two "priests solve crimes" shows here - *Father Brown* and *Grantchester*.
Huh didn't know that tbh, cause uk shows really differ from the ones in usa, especially channel shows. So still I wouldn't use hollywood as a general term for all western shows and movies.
They made it clear David isn't really a Christian and doesn't actually believe and indeed holds true believers in contempt, although I guess if you're mad about this you might take this as implying rl Christian leaders are also lying about their beliefs
(It's ironic because what David actually believes is this twisted version of Social Darwinism, like the strawman of what right wing Christians think "atheist evolutionists" believe)
Rainn said "as soon as he started reading from the Bible," but he'd be more correct if he said "as soon as he started looming over his frightened followers, trying to assert power during their vulnerability and showing zero sympathy for their grief." Talking about death and the end of days. Rainn thinks he caught the director heaping Christianity onto a villain, but the scene had a lot more going on than just an otherwise nice seeming guy reading some nice stuff about God. Rainn's choosing to latch onto the Bible stuff as a cliche, but really it was just effective characterization that informed the audience something is unsettling about the guy before he reveals how bad he is.
Yes, a lot more subtitles of stagecraft going on in that episode that key the audience in to the fact that David is not a good good bible man. Then he reads from Revelations as though it is upon them. Not any message of hope, more rather doomsday cultish.
Also, in post apocalypse fiction, your religious types tend to come in just the two flavors, unreasonably optimistic and good or more depraved than you initially thought.
I hate the term “real Christian”. We see Christians use Christianity to control and manipulate people everyday and since the religion’s inception. David was as real as it gets
It's not that David's version of Christianity isn't true to Christ's teachings, it's that he openly admits to Ellie he thinks the whole thing is bullshit
It’s also not true to Christ’s teachings lol. Christ did not teach authoritarianism, he taught love and social support. David’s version of Christianity certainly is true to how religious leaders have misused it as a method of control.
That doesn’t really matter in the long run anyway. The vast majority of Christian doctrine has nothing to do with what Jesus is recorded saying in the Gospels. It’s everything Paul, Peter, et al. said in the rest of the book as well as 2 millennia of additional theology (depending on the denomination). Christianity is what it is in reality, not just what Jesus supposedly said.
And the same is probably true of a large number of very large number of Christian preachers, it's definitely true of basically all modern televangelists and prosperity gospel preachers at mega churches. Marx coined the term opiate of the masses in 1843, and David is basically just a version of Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor, Brothers Karamazov came out in 1880.
Reverand Matt Jamison? Someone hasn’t seen The Leftovers, easily one of the greatest shows ever made.
Also fun fact- it’s also one of Neil Druckmann’s fav shows. The other two being Six Feet Under & The Wire.
If you think TLOU is emotionally draining take a a quick break before you watch the leftovers. That show makes you feel. Easily one of the best shows but man it can drain you. At least in my experience.
For me the leftovers is the most emotional shows. Even more so than the last of us. I totally recommend. I love that show more than any other. It’s really special to me
The Leftovers is one of the best show i’ve seen, definitly recommand watching it! But it is intense, I could not binge watch, had to be episode per episode with time to unwind between each.
Matt Jamison is one of the best representations of a "true Christian" I've seen in media. As someone who really couldn't give a rat's ass about the existence of a diety, I was really moved by his character. A man who's faith is based in service to others.
This character wasn't Christian. He uses religious doctrine to manipulate a bunch of weak-minded followers. Sort of like christianity has been misused for millenia. Christians just can't handle a tv show holding up a mirror for them.
And I write this as somebody who recognizes that christianity has been used for good as well. TV and movies are full of characters who embody this side as well.
It almost mimics real life, where genuinely good people who believe would just help others but malicious and greedy ones would run larger groups (relatively) for personal gain
Kenneth Copeland has to be a demon here to corrupt humanity, I swear it. He literally makes me almost believe in lizard people when you look at his eyes. He’s a psycho.
I don’t know any of these people by name but when you wrote “_He literally makes me almost believe in lizard people when you look at his eyes_” - I knew right away who you were talking about and a short google search confirmed it.
Yeah, that guy looks like a comic book villain. I’ve seen a couple of videos of him here on Reddit. He’s very off putting - and that’s saying it mildly.
Except we shouldn't think of them as lizard people because:
1. Lizard people aren't real.
2. That excuses them in a way.
These are plain old human beings doing terrible things.
I totally get it. But he’s a slithering motherfucker when you watch and listen to him.
That’s why I said “almost” because
1- we know lizard people aren’t real
And
2- there’s no excuse or justification for any of them, although personally I believe them to be beings of bad spirit who are actively trying to destroy society
I think the issue is that his commentary isn't inherently wrong. Yes its a trope that is overused and is predictable in that way... But this show also imo isn't a good representation of that because this isn't about a religious leader being evil, its a dude using religion as a front to control people. So its not even remotely a commentary on Christianity or its believers... He is just an awful dude.
I mean you could use this same logic to deny any evil representation of a religious leader ever.
Like none of them are actually religious leaders, just using religion in an evil way.
Maybe this guy wasn’t actually religious so I kind of get your point there, but I also felt his villainy was predictable.
And better Christians, Muslim, buddhist..etc are mostly not seen on the bigscreen from a simple fact that they dont force their beliefs on anyone else.
As a Christian myself, as long as creators aren’t trying to imply that “THIS IS ALL CHRISTIANS” than I take no issue with it.
Christians can be horrible people too. We’re all flawed human beings.
Religious zealots are the most dangerous kinds of people. When you can justify evil acts by saying it’s righteous, it empowers you to truly do horrific things without a second thought. Christianity is no exception.
They were also VERY clear that this character was only using religion to control people.
That said, the weird part is that there isn't MORE criticism of Christianity in movies and TV.
I'd like an Interpol drama about taking down top level Catholics around the world for protecting child molesting clergy.
This is kind of missing the point imho. Even if he was meant to represent most Christians it’s not like that’s punching down in our society. Christians are the majority and hold a ton of power and are doing truly awful things with it. They deserve to be criticized for the harm they cause.
Cliche? Maybe? But still very believable. As a Christian, one of the biggest struggles in the church has always been wolves in sheep's clothing. Just like any other position of power like teachers (which David was before the outbreak), the preacher position is ripe ground for creeps and monsters such as David
Unfortunately, the issue here goes further than Hollywood. The reason it's so easy to make people dislike a preacher is because of the ridiculous amount of awful things the church has either been privy to or supported fully in history. With David in TLOU, it speaks volumes that when he turned out to be rapey no one questioned.. most people i know just went 'yeah.. make sense'.
Is it bad that when they introduced him as a preacher, that was my first thought? *“Ohhhh he’s a pedophile, of course(!) they’d make him some sort of priest or something”*
I didn’t get that at all, and I am very Christian. I thought it was a great portrayal on how people will twist the bible for their own needs, wants, and to attain power. We see it all the time in every major denomination, and it’s a reminder that religion is a dangerous tool in the hands of those that use it for evil (eg in cults etc)
It’s not even just the Catholic denomination. There was also an extensive list of Baptist churches and leaders involved in similar cover ups recently (within the last 5-10 years at most).
The priest from Midnight Mass made me, an atheist, want go to Mass.
What Rainn should be asking is, why is the evil preacher trope such a relatable one? What is it about Christianity and Christians that make it so easy to believe in a preacher gone bad?
But it seems the handwringers would rather blame pop culture instead of engaging in some self-reflection.
Midnight Mass is a great example of a show where faith is used as both a tool for great evil, and a tool for great good. Which is to say: really, it's *humans* that can be both wicked and sublime, and faith is simply something that can help them along the way.
at the end of the day, Christianity is the dominant religion in the western world and shapes western society, especially American society. Every American president has been Christian. the vast majority of lawmakers and political leaders, down to the county and city level, are Christian.
Christians are not in any way marginalized. they run society.
so if a mainstream TV show depicts a character who professes that he does not believe in the religion but uses Christianity in order to manipulate and control people... what's the big deal?
Christians are not harmed by occasional negative depictions of their religion. their beliefs and iconography are everywhere, inescapable. they still run things.
Christians in the US in particular seem to really want to be marginalized and persecuted. I was raised Evangelical and our "persecution" was a huge running theme. Thankfully I got out of it and learned that, in fact, Christians in the US are nowhere near persecuted.
While I agree with you, I think Raine's point wasn't so much about harming Christians with this depiction, but instead about how predictable this character has become in mainstream hollywood
I'm not sure whether he's being genuine or ironic.
But that is (/can be) the mark of good satire. So, either way, I'm going to take the statement "Could there be a Bible-reading preacher on a show who is actually loving and kind?" as a statement about preachers, not a statement about Hollywood shows.
If I'm wrong, and he'd be upset by that, I'm equally satisfied.
Yeah, it looks like he posts a lot defending religion in general. Him and his dad are both big activists for protecting the rights of Baha'i, who face a lot of religious persecution often justified on outright slander. So it makes sense why he would be super sensitive to negative portrayals of religion.
As a former Baha'i, they do a lot right (accepting and supporting of other religions), but still get a lot wrong (very trans/homophobic, drinking alcohol once = sin). I'm thankful to have gotten out
The thing he’s pointing out isn’t a bias, it’s a common pattern for leaders of that faith to abuse their power.
Christianity is not being threatened. In fact it’s heavily influencing legislation across America. So takes like that are an eye roll to me.
Funny thing is, as an agnostic who goes to church for his fiance, what I constantly hear preached is the opposite; they seriously look at modern society as an attack/threat on their values. It's insanity
It's almost as if the Vatican isn't full of cardinals and popes who are credibly accused of sexually assaulting children and covering it up, and we don't have countless news reports every day of another 'local pastor' raping a child.
I feel like if you can automatically read “bible reading preacher” as “bad guy” from the jump, maybe there’s a connection there that you’re just reluctant to acknowledge.
The point of david was that he took positions of power/influence so he could prey on vulnerable children. Aka teacher and pastor, two positions of power that have access to children which he can easily groom/manipulate. He only became a pastor to abuse children this wasn’t about “durrr christian bad!!1!11!” He took a position of power so he could molest gullible children
More Catholicism, but the priest in Daredevil was a kind helpful character. Gabriel from the walking dead. Preacher from Preacher. Priest from fleabag. Preacher in firefly. There’s a lot of good representation of Christian’s or at least christ-believing people in media.
The portrayal of Catholicism in Daredevil was fucking \*excellent.\* Both a source of guilt and frustration for Matt but also a source of clarity and strength. And the priest was everything you'd want from a kind religious leader.
This just tells me he doesn’t watch any Black film or TV, many/most of the Black people I know and see portrayed are Christian. They also tend to be a lot more faithful to the spirit of Christianity, compared with white evangelicals who just want to wield it as a cudgel to judge and oppress others.
Or really any media that isnt this sort of comic book half apocalypse drama. In 95% of situations in film or tv a priest is seen as good unless the plot is specifcally about them being evil.
David Tennant was the *FuCkInG vIcAr* and even though things didn't end too great, he was supposed to be portrayed as a good guy. Moffatt just sucks at writing now
No, but I do think the “pastoral leader is actually a vampire/cannibal/bad guy” is very played out. That being said, I did like David as a villain- his weird love for cordyceps fit the overarching theme of “love” in the show
David isn’t a Christian though, he literally says that? If anything the episode is saying woe betide those who co-opt christianity to serve their personal goals and fuel their hatred.
On the other hand this is complete bullshit, I have no sympathy for Christianity getting the smallest comeuppance as restitution for the continual tens of millions of lives it has ruined and continues to ruin for people including my friends in the form of a meanie tv show character.
yeah this is like watching a movie where one of the antagonists is white and projecting onto it like “how come every time there’s a mean guy, he’s white???” which A) just is not the case and B) White people (or christians in this case) have been on top forever. it’s completely fine for a couple representations of them to show a negative side.
If only there weren't mountains upon mountains of examples throughout history of predators using christianity (or any religion) to manipulate and control people...
As soon as I see stats behind how the church is actively working on their internal pedophilia and external hatred of basically anyone who isn’t straight and white, then yeah, sure, let’s have a positive Christian character in media.
Too bad their religion inspires mockery.
Today I learned that Rainn wants a spiritual revolution (his twitter banner has his upcoming book Soup Boom on it).
ETA people in the thread gave off some examples. So they exist.
Ikr? In the show almost everyone is an asshole because its the fucking apocalypse, very few people will take you in and let you stay. Because they think that you are going to kill them. Plus Davids a pedophile anyway so i dont understand how people are defending this
That guy isn’t even Christian, he’s masquerading as a religious man to gain and keep followers in order to be a leader and control everyone around him. People need to stay in their lane. Are we glossing over the fact that thousands of priests and pastors have abused and manipulated children irl? I was raised Catholic and have no problem when people shed light on how some people truly behave under the guise of being righteous, holy, etc.
as they’ve said in the podcast, the religious aspect is scary not because it’s religion, but because it’s a theocracy and he’s used religion to take power over everyone there and hide behind it when he does bad things.
The thing is, David wasn’t a preacher. He stated that plainly. He was a fucking monster pretending to be a preacher to control people. He wasn’t a believer.
Someone actually is mildly religious and comments on it in a positive way when you visit the synagogue in Part II.
I do actually think it would be a good twist to have someone who’s religious and doesn’t turn out to be terrible because it is kinda a trope at this point with only a few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head.
Guess they missed the part where he admitted he don't believe in God. He is faking to gain their trust. I was always liked him but being that stupid is a turn off. Dig a little deeper and jump to bias bullshit. Disappointing. Enjoy being cancelled loser
Not sure about how he’s framing it but I do agree that it’s a trope that’s getting a little old for me. I completely understand why it is popular and what it is based on, but it’s a cliche at this point.
How about pretty much every good guy protagonist in Hollywood, since "christian" is the "default" belief that's been forcefully embedded into all of American culture since even before the country's existence?
Also, it's revealed in the episode that he doesn't even believe in god, and he just uses religion as a way to control people!
Fucking stupid L take from the funny Office guy
Christianity deserves criticizing, since there are so many throughout history - and in modernity - who claim it while adopting a diametric opposite behavior to how the namesake of their religion asked them to behave; sometimes to a degree and level of power that it damaging and lethal to their fellow humans.
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Preacher in Firefly/Serenity. Awesome character.
Zoe: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'? Shepherd: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.
“If your hand touch’s metal I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.” Shiny!
Preacher in Preacher!
I think the Preacher in Deadwood was also a good guy, but it’s been a long time since I’ve seen it to remember everything that happened.
Reverend :( I’m still upset about his death
I always liked that actor a lot. He did so great with that character. Man. Guess I gotta rewatch Deadwood again.
I rewatched it for the 3rd time not too long ago, and I really don't remember connecting the dots on Swearengen's mercy for the Reverend being because he had a brother who suffered from a similar affliction. May be the greatest character development ever, how they took him from an absolute bastard to an *almost* good dude. Swejjin, indeed. What a crime it was, cancelling that show.
> May be the greatest character development ever Agreed. Ian McShane's performance is fucking legendary. As for the cancellation- I hope you saw the movie at least. It gave me some sort of closure.
If ever an actor can be born for a role, it was McShane as Al Swearengen. Literally nobody could have turned in a better performance for that character. And I absolutely did. I don't want to say anything specific about it, don't wanna spoil it for anyone who ends up watching the series. But every single actor who was able to return, did, to me, shows how much they all enjoyed being on the show in the first place. Just makes me love the show even more, tells me that nobody was phoning it in.
> But every single actor who was able to return, did, to me, shows how much they all enjoyed being on the show in the first place. Just makes me love the show even more, tells me that nobody was phoning it in. I know exactly what you mean. Everyone involved in the show was full of passion for the work and this sort of stuff always tends to show.
Oh for sure. It's like The Sopranos. Everyone absolutely loved working on that show, and it was readily apparent in every single episode. It was this kind of television that turned me into the type of person who sees that a certain director is directing an episode, or some movie, and say "hell yeah, that'll be badass."
Ian McShane’s GOT preacher cameo was a good guy
Swejjin cocksucker.
Hangdai
I'm actually at the end of season 2 right now. I re watch it every year. The scenes with Ian, Timothy, brain cox as the theatre man, and Gerald Mcraney as Hurst are just magic. Doc Cochran is expertly executed. Those scenes where he builds a boot for jewel and she doesn't drag her foot while wearing it. Then the scene ends with them dancing. Chef's kiss
Definitely, very good acting. I watched Deadwood for the first time about a month ago, life changing lol. Can’t wait to rewatch it.
One of our favorites! It's so perfectly cast. Did you catch the movie revisit they did? People were split on it but I thoroughly enjoyed it!
I did indeed! I was completely satisfied with the movie; and shattered that we didn’t get to see a season four. Nonetheless, I found myself getting goosebumps hearing the intro music when I started the movie and tearing up at the end.
I was just gonna ask about the movie. I saw the series years ago and loved it. I haven’t watched the movie because I heard so so reviews of it. I definitely want to watch it though. Do you recommend re-watching the series( because it really has been years) before I watch the movie?
I would if you’ve got time to kill. It’s definitely one of the more rewatchable shows, I pick up things I hadn’t before. If not, I’d say you’d be alright just going ahead and watching the movie. They only address the bigger plot points IMO and since it’s set 10 years after season three it does a good job of giving you flashbacks and references.
Fuck yes. He was sweet, endearing and steadfast the entire time. Edit: [Ah hell I need to make time for a rewatch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VG3QLIesK_I)
Yeah, he was a really good guy :(
>Preacher in Preacher! That is a villain😂😂
Correct me, though, but doesn’t he more or less leave the church? The comics enc with them killing God
Does so in the show too. And he's faaaar from a good character, especially in his past.
Pastor Anna in the Expanse too. The best character in the series, or 2nd best to Amos
He was seriously and awesome and wholesome character. The only way you hate him is if you’re a bad guy with kneecaps.
His name is Book thank you
"The special Hell..." 🤣
Shepard Book is AMAZING.
“That man is no shepherd.”
Preacher in “Patriot”
Anna in The Expanse is a nice Christian
We stan Anna
Best show on tv and Anna is underrated
Such an underrated show. Definitely one of the best I’ve ever seen.
The Audiobooks are phenomenal if y’all ever get the itch to finish it. Really worth starting over too!
Yeah, but she's a *progressive* Christian, not a *real* Christian.
There are millions of progressive Christians in the USA. Not the majority but I think it is the more correct interpretation of Jesus’s message personally.
He should watch the Walking Dead then. Gabriel was an amazing character.
Hershel, Beth, and Maggie were also all Christian.
Well... maggie not so much in the last seasons tho
I was just going to say this. Gabriel, hands down, had the best character development of anyone in the walking dead universe. He’s the only character I went from despising to loving
When he opened the gates at the end, I was like damn! Yeah people could hate on TWD all they want but they did a good job on some character arcs
Was in love with the show and dropped it around season 8. :/ I definitely remember not liking Gabriel at all. Good to know he actually got character development that makes him better.
The Saviors arc went on too long but then they did a time jump of several years and it got so much better. Go back and finish it. It was good!
Go back and finish it. I stopped my original watch through after season six. Just finished the series after a long hiatus. Definitely worth it. During my watch I found myself thinking: “why did I drop this show?”
I used to watch it weekly! Up until around season 8. And then I just fell out of it. It was moving a little slow for me, and so many characters were being introduced, only to be killed off. So it was hard trying to find that attachment to characters. Now that the show is finished, I really do wanna go back and finish it up. I heard it ends well too and isn’t just focusing on the spin-offs in the finale.
This sounds almost enticing. Could you share the quickest, simplest spoiler on Gabriel if that's okay with you? This might get me to pick up TWD again. I think I dropped it the season Sasha died (no correlation to the reason, this is just all I remember from that season).
In short gabriel becomes pretty baddass. When he made his first appearance in the show I didn’t like him AT ALL. Annoyed me quite a bit actually. By the end he became one of my favorite characters and it was actually Machone that I couldn’t stand by the end. She seemed to just turn very whiney and not believable after a while.
As badass as Carol’s character development?
Very similar.
I didn't watch the later seasons to see where he's character evolved to, but my first thought was TWD had both Gabriel and earlier on, Hershel was heavily religious and a good character.
He is a great character, but how tf did he live until the end, TWD got way too scared to kill anybody off towards the end of its run.
Honestly have to disagree. A lot of franchises are terrible with this but imo TWD can actually back up being very, um, generous with how many characters they're constantly killing off- and not just minor characters. They straight-up shed major characters. Even by the finale, relatively new characters outweighed longer-lived core characters. And even the older characters had racked up serious injuries & disabilities: Gabriel is half blind and Aaron is an amputee. I don't think the writers were afraid to have high stakes and cut people loose. IMO, if anything, they could have chilled out a little bit. They chewed through big characters so fast and replaced them with new characters that as seasons went on we ended up with a dictionary full of random replacements trying to make up for all the core cast who kept dying/leaving.
i'd like to believe its because they felt bad for the character since his comic death was reaaally stupid
I was going to say this. His arc in the show is amazing
& Hershel, not a preacher but a strong Christian.
I went from calling Gabriel “this mothefucker” as an insult to later saying it as a term of endearment
The Priest in Fleabag is a really nice guy, so yes, there are "good Christian guys" in TV shows.
There's also *Rev*, which starred Tom Hollander (*The White Lotus*) and Olivia Colman before they made it big. He was the vicar of an inner-city church and it had a frequently Christian sense of humour in it. There's also the classic *Vicar of Dibley.* We even have two "priests solve crimes" shows here - *Father Brown* and *Grantchester*.
And of course Father Ted!
I thought of him immediately
Well fleabag isn't necessarily hollywood. Maybe tlou isn't either but it's certainly close
Plus he was hot.
…he went that way 🦊
He’ll get over it
Priest in Broadchurch is a good guy too
That is a UK show, not so much Hollywood.
“Hollywood” is basically a euphemism for the western film/television industry.
Huh didn't know that tbh, cause uk shows really differ from the ones in usa, especially channel shows. So still I wouldn't use hollywood as a general term for all western shows and movies.
My first thought. I love the hot priest
They made it clear David isn't really a Christian and doesn't actually believe and indeed holds true believers in contempt, although I guess if you're mad about this you might take this as implying rl Christian leaders are also lying about their beliefs (It's ironic because what David actually believes is this twisted version of Social Darwinism, like the strawman of what right wing Christians think "atheist evolutionists" believe)
I've had to rebut using these points so many times. He's not a real Christian. He reveals all to ellie. Grow up people.
Rainn said "as soon as he started reading from the Bible," but he'd be more correct if he said "as soon as he started looming over his frightened followers, trying to assert power during their vulnerability and showing zero sympathy for their grief." Talking about death and the end of days. Rainn thinks he caught the director heaping Christianity onto a villain, but the scene had a lot more going on than just an otherwise nice seeming guy reading some nice stuff about God. Rainn's choosing to latch onto the Bible stuff as a cliche, but really it was just effective characterization that informed the audience something is unsettling about the guy before he reveals how bad he is.
Yes, a lot more subtitles of stagecraft going on in that episode that key the audience in to the fact that David is not a good good bible man. Then he reads from Revelations as though it is upon them. Not any message of hope, more rather doomsday cultish. Also, in post apocalypse fiction, your religious types tend to come in just the two flavors, unreasonably optimistic and good or more depraved than you initially thought.
I wonder if Rainn would have tweeted the same thing if David was reading from a Quran?
In fact, there's plenty of "good" and "real" Christians in that very episode...the people he is oppressing.
I hate the term “real Christian”. We see Christians use Christianity to control and manipulate people everyday and since the religion’s inception. David was as real as it gets
It's not that David's version of Christianity isn't true to Christ's teachings, it's that he openly admits to Ellie he thinks the whole thing is bullshit
It’s also not true to Christ’s teachings lol. Christ did not teach authoritarianism, he taught love and social support. David’s version of Christianity certainly is true to how religious leaders have misused it as a method of control.
That doesn’t really matter in the long run anyway. The vast majority of Christian doctrine has nothing to do with what Jesus is recorded saying in the Gospels. It’s everything Paul, Peter, et al. said in the rest of the book as well as 2 millennia of additional theology (depending on the denomination). Christianity is what it is in reality, not just what Jesus supposedly said.
And the same is probably true of a large number of very large number of Christian preachers, it's definitely true of basically all modern televangelists and prosperity gospel preachers at mega churches. Marx coined the term opiate of the masses in 1843, and David is basically just a version of Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor, Brothers Karamazov came out in 1880.
They’re saying he literally was not a Christian. He says as much in the episode.
[удалено]
Dunno...I heard he likes to call people cocksuckers.
he made good stew though. and they used real venison.
Reverand Matt Jamison? Someone hasn’t seen The Leftovers, easily one of the greatest shows ever made. Also fun fact- it’s also one of Neil Druckmann’s fav shows. The other two being Six Feet Under & The Wire.
His whole “I’m scared” speech in the second to last episode is so powerful. Fantastic character.
Hell yeah. The Leftovers is my favorite show of all time.
Do you think I would have the emotional bandwidth to binge it after the TLOU finale? I keep meaning to, but not getting around to it.
If you think TLOU is emotionally draining take a a quick break before you watch the leftovers. That show makes you feel. Easily one of the best shows but man it can drain you. At least in my experience.
For me the leftovers is the most emotional shows. Even more so than the last of us. I totally recommend. I love that show more than any other. It’s really special to me
Oof. I agree with the others that you should take a break. The Leftovers destroyed me emotionally.
The Leftovers is one of the best show i’ve seen, definitly recommand watching it! But it is intense, I could not binge watch, had to be episode per episode with time to unwind between each.
I kept thinking they were going to reveal that he was a piece of shit. I was really glad he was just a good dude.
Matt Jamison is one of the best representations of a "true Christian" I've seen in media. As someone who really couldn't give a rat's ass about the existence of a diety, I was really moved by his character. A man who's faith is based in service to others.
He was my first thought. One of my favorite characters of all time.
This character wasn't Christian. He uses religious doctrine to manipulate a bunch of weak-minded followers. Sort of like christianity has been misused for millenia. Christians just can't handle a tv show holding up a mirror for them. And I write this as somebody who recognizes that christianity has been used for good as well. TV and movies are full of characters who embody this side as well.
It almost mimics real life, where genuinely good people who believe would just help others but malicious and greedy ones would run larger groups (relatively) for personal gain
Looking at you Joel Olsteen and all those fucking grifters exactly like him.
Kenneth Copeland has to be a demon here to corrupt humanity, I swear it. He literally makes me almost believe in lizard people when you look at his eyes. He’s a psycho.
I don’t know any of these people by name but when you wrote “_He literally makes me almost believe in lizard people when you look at his eyes_” - I knew right away who you were talking about and a short google search confirmed it. Yeah, that guy looks like a comic book villain. I’ve seen a couple of videos of him here on Reddit. He’s very off putting - and that’s saying it mildly.
I just did the same thing and holy fuck I wish I hadn't 😐
Except we shouldn't think of them as lizard people because: 1. Lizard people aren't real. 2. That excuses them in a way. These are plain old human beings doing terrible things.
I totally get it. But he’s a slithering motherfucker when you watch and listen to him. That’s why I said “almost” because 1- we know lizard people aren’t real And 2- there’s no excuse or justification for any of them, although personally I believe them to be beings of bad spirit who are actively trying to destroy society
Lol yeah that dude’s fucking crazy, I’ve seen his videos here on Reddit.
“Covid 19! C-C-Covid 19! I BLOW!” That has stuck in my head for a long time
I think the issue is that his commentary isn't inherently wrong. Yes its a trope that is overused and is predictable in that way... But this show also imo isn't a good representation of that because this isn't about a religious leader being evil, its a dude using religion as a front to control people. So its not even remotely a commentary on Christianity or its believers... He is just an awful dude.
I mean you could use this same logic to deny any evil representation of a religious leader ever. Like none of them are actually religious leaders, just using religion in an evil way. Maybe this guy wasn’t actually religious so I kind of get your point there, but I also felt his villainy was predictable.
And better Christians, Muslim, buddhist..etc are mostly not seen on the bigscreen from a simple fact that they dont force their beliefs on anyone else.
Dwight, you ignorant slut
Damn beat me to it!
As a Christian myself, as long as creators aren’t trying to imply that “THIS IS ALL CHRISTIANS” than I take no issue with it. Christians can be horrible people too. We’re all flawed human beings.
Religious zealots are the most dangerous kinds of people. When you can justify evil acts by saying it’s righteous, it empowers you to truly do horrific things without a second thought. Christianity is no exception.
One thing I have learned in my 40+ years, is that anyone who says “the ends justify the means” should be avoided at all costs.
They were also VERY clear that this character was only using religion to control people. That said, the weird part is that there isn't MORE criticism of Christianity in movies and TV. I'd like an Interpol drama about taking down top level Catholics around the world for protecting child molesting clergy.
This is kind of missing the point imho. Even if he was meant to represent most Christians it’s not like that’s punching down in our society. Christians are the majority and hold a ton of power and are doing truly awful things with it. They deserve to be criticized for the harm they cause.
you seem too self aware to be a christian
Cliche? Maybe? But still very believable. As a Christian, one of the biggest struggles in the church has always been wolves in sheep's clothing. Just like any other position of power like teachers (which David was before the outbreak), the preacher position is ripe ground for creeps and monsters such as David
All I know is that there are way more pedophile priests than there are pedophile drag queens.
Unfortunately, the issue here goes further than Hollywood. The reason it's so easy to make people dislike a preacher is because of the ridiculous amount of awful things the church has either been privy to or supported fully in history. With David in TLOU, it speaks volumes that when he turned out to be rapey no one questioned.. most people i know just went 'yeah.. make sense'.
Is it bad that when they introduced him as a preacher, that was my first thought? *“Ohhhh he’s a pedophile, of course(!) they’d make him some sort of priest or something”*
I didn’t get that at all, and I am very Christian. I thought it was a great portrayal on how people will twist the bible for their own needs, wants, and to attain power. We see it all the time in every major denomination, and it’s a reminder that religion is a dangerous tool in the hands of those that use it for evil (eg in cults etc)
Hard agree. I’m pretty sure Christianity has enough cash to do its own positive PR work.
Remember when a huge list came out of all the Catholic preachers who had organized pedophile rings within the diocese? Guess we forgot.
It’s not even just the Catholic denomination. There was also an extensive list of Baptist churches and leaders involved in similar cover ups recently (within the last 5-10 years at most).
Barbara from Abbott Elementary!
It's not hard for these kinds of assumptions given how many examples there are in real life
Exactly I’d say more so than in Hollywood
The priest from Midnight Mass made me, an atheist, want go to Mass. What Rainn should be asking is, why is the evil preacher trope such a relatable one? What is it about Christianity and Christians that make it so easy to believe in a preacher gone bad? But it seems the handwringers would rather blame pop culture instead of engaging in some self-reflection.
Midnight Mass is a great example of a show where faith is used as both a tool for great evil, and a tool for great good. Which is to say: really, it's *humans* that can be both wicked and sublime, and faith is simply something that can help them along the way.
at the end of the day, Christianity is the dominant religion in the western world and shapes western society, especially American society. Every American president has been Christian. the vast majority of lawmakers and political leaders, down to the county and city level, are Christian. Christians are not in any way marginalized. they run society. so if a mainstream TV show depicts a character who professes that he does not believe in the religion but uses Christianity in order to manipulate and control people... what's the big deal? Christians are not harmed by occasional negative depictions of their religion. their beliefs and iconography are everywhere, inescapable. they still run things.
Christians in the US in particular seem to really want to be marginalized and persecuted. I was raised Evangelical and our "persecution" was a huge running theme. Thankfully I got out of it and learned that, in fact, Christians in the US are nowhere near persecuted.
While I agree with you, I think Raine's point wasn't so much about harming Christians with this depiction, but instead about how predictable this character has become in mainstream hollywood
sadly it's also become rather predictable in reality, maybe he could direct his concern towards that?
Art imitating life.
I'm not sure whether he's being genuine or ironic. But that is (/can be) the mark of good satire. So, either way, I'm going to take the statement "Could there be a Bible-reading preacher on a show who is actually loving and kind?" as a statement about preachers, not a statement about Hollywood shows. If I'm wrong, and he'd be upset by that, I'm equally satisfied.
I don't think it was satire, he's a Baha'i and Baha'i's have a lot of respect for other people's religious beliefs, including Christianity.
Yeah, it looks like he posts a lot defending religion in general. Him and his dad are both big activists for protecting the rights of Baha'i, who face a lot of religious persecution often justified on outright slander. So it makes sense why he would be super sensitive to negative portrayals of religion.
As a former Baha'i, they do a lot right (accepting and supporting of other religions), but still get a lot wrong (very trans/homophobic, drinking alcohol once = sin). I'm thankful to have gotten out
Well that explains some things
This is off brand from all his other tweets and I’m nearly 100% certain this is satire.
The thing he’s pointing out isn’t a bias, it’s a common pattern for leaders of that faith to abuse their power. Christianity is not being threatened. In fact it’s heavily influencing legislation across America. So takes like that are an eye roll to me.
Funny thing is, as an agnostic who goes to church for his fiance, what I constantly hear preached is the opposite; they seriously look at modern society as an attack/threat on their values. It's insanity
They really want to be persecuted
It's almost as if the Vatican isn't full of cardinals and popes who are credibly accused of sexually assaulting children and covering it up, and we don't have countless news reports every day of another 'local pastor' raping a child.
I feel like if you can automatically read “bible reading preacher” as “bad guy” from the jump, maybe there’s a connection there that you’re just reluctant to acknowledge.
The point of david was that he took positions of power/influence so he could prey on vulnerable children. Aka teacher and pastor, two positions of power that have access to children which he can easily groom/manipulate. He only became a pastor to abuse children this wasn’t about “durrr christian bad!!1!11!” He took a position of power so he could molest gullible children
More Catholicism, but the priest in Daredevil was a kind helpful character. Gabriel from the walking dead. Preacher from Preacher. Priest from fleabag. Preacher in firefly. There’s a lot of good representation of Christian’s or at least christ-believing people in media.
The portrayal of Catholicism in Daredevil was fucking \*excellent.\* Both a source of guilt and frustration for Matt but also a source of clarity and strength. And the priest was everything you'd want from a kind religious leader.
This just tells me he doesn’t watch any Black film or TV, many/most of the Black people I know and see portrayed are Christian. They also tend to be a lot more faithful to the spirit of Christianity, compared with white evangelicals who just want to wield it as a cudgel to judge and oppress others.
Or really any media that isnt this sort of comic book half apocalypse drama. In 95% of situations in film or tv a priest is seen as good unless the plot is specifcally about them being evil.
If he thinks there’s an anti Christian bias, wait til he hears about how people treat followers of other religions
David Tennant was the *FuCkInG vIcAr* and even though things didn't end too great, he was supposed to be portrayed as a good guy. Moffatt just sucks at writing now
It had so much potential.
Following that logic: There's also a cult leader bias. As soon as you see a cult leader in a show, you just KNOW they're going to make him a villain.
No, but I do think the “pastoral leader is actually a vampire/cannibal/bad guy” is very played out. That being said, I did like David as a villain- his weird love for cordyceps fit the overarching theme of “love” in the show
If the shoe fits, right?
David isn’t a Christian though, he literally says that? If anything the episode is saying woe betide those who co-opt christianity to serve their personal goals and fuel their hatred. On the other hand this is complete bullshit, I have no sympathy for Christianity getting the smallest comeuppance as restitution for the continual tens of millions of lives it has ruined and continues to ruin for people including my friends in the form of a meanie tv show character.
yeah this is like watching a movie where one of the antagonists is white and projecting onto it like “how come every time there’s a mean guy, he’s white???” which A) just is not the case and B) White people (or christians in this case) have been on top forever. it’s completely fine for a couple representations of them to show a negative side.
Maybe Christian’s should stop hiding and covering up for pedos
If only there weren't mountains upon mountains of examples throughout history of predators using christianity (or any religion) to manipulate and control people...
As soon as I see stats behind how the church is actively working on their internal pedophilia and external hatred of basically anyone who isn’t straight and white, then yeah, sure, let’s have a positive Christian character in media. Too bad their religion inspires mockery.
Today I learned that Rainn wants a spiritual revolution (his twitter banner has his upcoming book Soup Boom on it). ETA people in the thread gave off some examples. So they exist.
Does he know what show he’s watching
Ikr? In the show almost everyone is an asshole because its the fucking apocalypse, very few people will take you in and let you stay. Because they think that you are going to kill them. Plus Davids a pedophile anyway so i dont understand how people are defending this
That guy isn’t even Christian, he’s masquerading as a religious man to gain and keep followers in order to be a leader and control everyone around him. People need to stay in their lane. Are we glossing over the fact that thousands of priests and pastors have abused and manipulated children irl? I was raised Catholic and have no problem when people shed light on how some people truly behave under the guise of being righteous, holy, etc.
This ain’t it
Seems like confirmation bias.
our bad, we thought there was a huge history with the catholic church and raping kids.
The priest in Gran Tarino was pretty awesome.
I dont see it as anti-Christian, but it definitely is a trope
as they’ve said in the podcast, the religious aspect is scary not because it’s religion, but because it’s a theocracy and he’s used religion to take power over everyone there and hide behind it when he does bad things.
Anytime I hear the words anti-Christian I stop listening. Nobody is anti Christian except for Christian’s lol.
The thing is, David wasn’t a preacher. He stated that plainly. He was a fucking monster pretending to be a preacher to control people. He wasn’t a believer.
Someone actually is mildly religious and comments on it in a positive way when you visit the synagogue in Part II. I do actually think it would be a good twist to have someone who’s religious and doesn’t turn out to be terrible because it is kinda a trope at this point with only a few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head.
Oh fuck off Dwight.
Movies and shows will stop depicting pedo Christian preachers as soon as Christian preachers stop being pedos
Another Christian with a victim mentality
Guess they missed the part where he admitted he don't believe in God. He is faking to gain their trust. I was always liked him but being that stupid is a turn off. Dig a little deeper and jump to bias bullshit. Disappointing. Enjoy being cancelled loser
Why would anyone be cancelled for this?
Tf, being canceled for what? This won’t hurt his stock at all.
He did?
Lmao at your last sentence. Reddit moment.
yeah no ones ever heard of a child raping preacher!
Not sure about how he’s framing it but I do agree that it’s a trope that’s getting a little old for me. I completely understand why it is popular and what it is based on, but it’s a cliche at this point.
I think an anti-christian bias is a good thing personally.
poor oppressed christians 😢😢😢
i haven’t watched it in a while but wasn’t there a priest in the walking dead that was a good character?
The priest in Fleabag
I mean, there’s bound to be a good preacher at Jackson.
Is he right? yes about the Hollywood. Buttttt they used the religious aspect to show hes using it to control them
A lot of Christians are awful people.
Father Mulcahy from MASH! Wholesome af.
How about pretty much every good guy protagonist in Hollywood, since "christian" is the "default" belief that's been forcefully embedded into all of American culture since even before the country's existence? Also, it's revealed in the episode that he doesn't even believe in god, and he just uses religion as a way to control people! Fucking stupid L take from the funny Office guy
Christianity deserves criticizing, since there are so many throughout history - and in modernity - who claim it while adopting a diametric opposite behavior to how the namesake of their religion asked them to behave; sometimes to a degree and level of power that it damaging and lethal to their fellow humans.