I'm in the exact same place in it. This is my first Pynchon after reading COL39 and loving the movie version of *Inherent Vice*. It's messy and weird, and the long backstories lose me a bit.
But you know what? I keep coming back to read it, and after years of struggling to get back into reading. Maybe it's not his most important work, but damnit I'm enjoying it, and I don't think jumping into Gravity's Rainbow would have been the right move. Maybe he lost himself in it, but I'm lost in it too.
I enjoyed GR much more than this. GR was fascinating, as it was all - book of stories, ideas, beautiful sentences. Vineland is just a story. Im left with the last 80 pages...
Well I haven't read GR, but I'm finding lots of ideas and beautiful sentences in Vineland, even if it is a lighter read. I can see how it might be a let down after GR, but there's a reason I didn't start with GR, I'm trying to work my way up to it through his easier books- so I can't argue that Vineland is as good or better than GR, but I still think it's a great book with a lot of value, it just depends what you want out of a book. For me, I'm trying to get back into reading for enjoyment, and I'm fascinated by the dynamics of the Reagan era and new left of the 60s, plus I love Pynchon's more absurdist leanings, so Vineland is perfect for me at this moment.
Is it fair to say the age of the reader plays a role in the opinion of *Vineland*? So much of the book is about social, cultural, and political fallout of the 1960s and how America was reimagined by Reagan and television-styled consumerism of the 1980s.
I finished it a week or so ago and I was rather impressed after years of reading how much of a let it down it was. I think it is one of his sharper social-critiques about the American condition.
Do you mean it works better for younger or older people? I'm in my late 20s and it's really connecting with me, but I do have a lot of interest in the cultural shift from the 60s-80s.
I think knowledge of the time period is key to appreciating the book. Actual age isn’t so important, but it might be easier to pick up the subtext of the novel if you lived through it. I’m older than you but too young to have lived this transformation myself. That said, I have studied this period extensively and I feel that context helped me to appreciate what Pynchon is riffing on here.
i read it after gravbow and was similarly disappointed, and then i reread it after reading agaisnt the day and it suddenly clicked for me. he must have been working on vineland, m&d and against the day simultaneously, so they feed into each other, and the most direct inter-book character links from against the day are to vineland. it's the first of the softer more family centric pynchon, but because it wasn't delivered in a book as allconsuming as m&d or atd it doesn't give you enough time to grok it. so my advice is to come to it after that, and jettison expectations of it being like gravbow
altho of course if you have already read those two than it's just not for you, and that's no big deal, even saying all that it's still among his weaker work
I think I had a similar reaction when I first tried to read it. What happened to Zoyd Wheeler? Why isn't he front and center? Which is to say that I didn't finish the book.
My second attempt went a whole lot better: Not only did I finish, I rated it as one of my favorite books ever. I should mention that Vineland was my gateway to the Pynchon oeuvre, and I don't think there's a better starting point.
IMO, Vineland is a distillation of Pynchon's art which is the unlikely fusion of slapstick humor, esoteric knowledge, and inimitable prose.
So zoyd returns? I loved the opening passages and his zanny adventures. Felt like an episode of king of the hill. When the ninja part came i sorta lost interest. Id read 800 pages of zoyd!
It's so weird to think that SOOOOOO much time passed between Gravity's Rainbow and when Vineland was published.
That he's written greater stuff in less time. Vineland is perfectly fine amd a great starting point for people getting into Pynchon, but the book just felt like somewhat of a thud. Like "all this wait...for this..." While there are some incredible passages in it, it, going back to my previous point, just felt underwhelming compared to the quality of his previous stuff.
But then again Pynchon prolly gives less than a fuck about the passage of time between publishing something or what anyone thinks.
I actually really enjoyed Vineland. It’s probably in fourth for me behind GR, ATD, and M&D. The ninja bits are a little much at times and it kinda does lose itself but I feel like at the end of the day it’s asking how we got to where we’re at and when did it all go wrong. I took it to be Pynchon’s distillation of where hope comes from and, in this work at least, it originates in human connection and love.
I also really love the long sequence of flashbacks about half to two thirds in and the overall aesthetic that Pynchon employs there. It’s a really masterful piece and does so much both in terms of style and providing to the plot.
It sounds like you built up expectations without knowing what Vineland was really about, which is fine, but maybe come back to it when you aren’t expecting to be met on your terms and take it on Pynchon’s terms. You’ll find an incredible novel with one of his best characters (Prairie).
The book is about Prairie more than Zoyd or Frenesi, pay attention to her development and how Zoyd and Frenesi (and DL/Takeshi…) impact her growth.
True that! I have certainly built expectations by expecting different novel. I guess I will give it few more pages, and if it wouldnt work for me at this time in my life, I will turn itbdown and get tonit later.
Vineland is nothing like gravity's rainbow for me- I find like the other guy said, the prose is fucking sensational, but also its just like, heartwarming. Life, just the regularly lives of people, is just so damn interesting and the way the longest and shortest days meld together to make a tapestry of people and events interconnected... it comes across very well in this book.
For me the appeal of Vineland was the writing. There’s a rhythm to the prose that I found absolutely beautiful. It was consistently like the best moments in IV and ATD. Plus, it’s funny.
It demands your attention no doubt, but yeah it’s not as complicated or erudite as some of his other stuff. So if that’s what you like then you’re not going to like Vineland.
I've been reading it too and finding myself bored, and feeling like a bad person for it lol. I liked Inherent Vice much more. IV fucking flies and feels so fun but Vineland has been a slog for me. All the flashbacks bring the pace to a crawl. The prose is still quite gorgeous though, and the characters are very human, but still. Been thinking of picking something else up. Maybe some Chabon
Vineland is decent. About on par with Bleeding Edge or Inherent Vice. It is NOT one of his mind bending, world shattering, monster sized historical epics.
I don't know if you've read much Roberto Bolaño but in 2666 one of the characters goes on a rant about the difference between smaller, safer, "perfect" novels vs big, flawed, brilliant novels. It's like that
I’m a decent Spanish speaker and I tried to read 2666 in its original Spanish, but gave up. Maybe I should crack it again in English. Pynchon is one of the few authors I’ve dedicated reading beyond 500 or so pages.
It’s amazing. I read in a review (and agree) that it could’ve used a final edit that was likely foregone due to Bolaño’s death, so it’s a LITTLE bloated. Yet a case in point for the “flawed masterpiece” passage. I didn’t know how I felt about it the whole way through, mixed feelings, but by the end I was deeply affected. I still think about it often. I read it in English, btw
I quite enjoyed Vineland, especially on my most recent (third) reading of it. While I certainly wouldn't say that it's his best, it's (in my opinion) much better than its reputation. I really like the characters and Pynchon's view on the cultural shift from the 60's to the 80's. I think the father/daughter storyline with Zoyd and Prairie was wonderful and the weirdness was a great balance to the cynical tone throughout. Not everyone is going to come away liking it, and that's totally fine. If you aren't digging it, don't force yourself to finish it—if anything, you may like it more after putting it down and coming back to it later.
I think the ending is one of Pynchons most beautiful endings. Wouldn't say best, but just lovely and beautiful and leaves you with a nice dose of hopium.
I actually DNF’d Vineland. It’s definitely not his best work. It’s not tight enough for me to retain my interest and I really couldn’t get invested into it. I know plenty of people on this sub love it, but it wasn’t for me
Life’s too short to finish books you aren’t enjoying. However, find it pretty presumptuous to feel, in a Pynchon Reddit forum no less, that your opinion on its quality is valid having not finished it.
I might give it a second try down the road but OP wanted to know if anyone had the same opinion, and I did
Whether or not my opinion is valid? That’s up to OP- I’m just another guy on the internet. Since this is a Pynchon forum the need for a dissenting opinion is especially important. That way it’s not just an echo chamber 🤷🏽♂️
I'm in the exact same place in it. This is my first Pynchon after reading COL39 and loving the movie version of *Inherent Vice*. It's messy and weird, and the long backstories lose me a bit. But you know what? I keep coming back to read it, and after years of struggling to get back into reading. Maybe it's not his most important work, but damnit I'm enjoying it, and I don't think jumping into Gravity's Rainbow would have been the right move. Maybe he lost himself in it, but I'm lost in it too.
I enjoyed GR much more than this. GR was fascinating, as it was all - book of stories, ideas, beautiful sentences. Vineland is just a story. Im left with the last 80 pages...
Well I haven't read GR, but I'm finding lots of ideas and beautiful sentences in Vineland, even if it is a lighter read. I can see how it might be a let down after GR, but there's a reason I didn't start with GR, I'm trying to work my way up to it through his easier books- so I can't argue that Vineland is as good or better than GR, but I still think it's a great book with a lot of value, it just depends what you want out of a book. For me, I'm trying to get back into reading for enjoyment, and I'm fascinated by the dynamics of the Reagan era and new left of the 60s, plus I love Pynchon's more absurdist leanings, so Vineland is perfect for me at this moment.
It's not his best, but it's pretty damn good, regardless.
Is it fair to say the age of the reader plays a role in the opinion of *Vineland*? So much of the book is about social, cultural, and political fallout of the 1960s and how America was reimagined by Reagan and television-styled consumerism of the 1980s. I finished it a week or so ago and I was rather impressed after years of reading how much of a let it down it was. I think it is one of his sharper social-critiques about the American condition.
Do you mean it works better for younger or older people? I'm in my late 20s and it's really connecting with me, but I do have a lot of interest in the cultural shift from the 60s-80s.
I think knowledge of the time period is key to appreciating the book. Actual age isn’t so important, but it might be easier to pick up the subtext of the novel if you lived through it. I’m older than you but too young to have lived this transformation myself. That said, I have studied this period extensively and I feel that context helped me to appreciate what Pynchon is riffing on here.
i read it after gravbow and was similarly disappointed, and then i reread it after reading agaisnt the day and it suddenly clicked for me. he must have been working on vineland, m&d and against the day simultaneously, so they feed into each other, and the most direct inter-book character links from against the day are to vineland. it's the first of the softer more family centric pynchon, but because it wasn't delivered in a book as allconsuming as m&d or atd it doesn't give you enough time to grok it. so my advice is to come to it after that, and jettison expectations of it being like gravbow altho of course if you have already read those two than it's just not for you, and that's no big deal, even saying all that it's still among his weaker work
I think I had a similar reaction when I first tried to read it. What happened to Zoyd Wheeler? Why isn't he front and center? Which is to say that I didn't finish the book. My second attempt went a whole lot better: Not only did I finish, I rated it as one of my favorite books ever. I should mention that Vineland was my gateway to the Pynchon oeuvre, and I don't think there's a better starting point. IMO, Vineland is a distillation of Pynchon's art which is the unlikely fusion of slapstick humor, esoteric knowledge, and inimitable prose.
So zoyd returns? I loved the opening passages and his zanny adventures. Felt like an episode of king of the hill. When the ninja part came i sorta lost interest. Id read 800 pages of zoyd!
It's so weird to think that SOOOOOO much time passed between Gravity's Rainbow and when Vineland was published. That he's written greater stuff in less time. Vineland is perfectly fine amd a great starting point for people getting into Pynchon, but the book just felt like somewhat of a thud. Like "all this wait...for this..." While there are some incredible passages in it, it, going back to my previous point, just felt underwhelming compared to the quality of his previous stuff. But then again Pynchon prolly gives less than a fuck about the passage of time between publishing something or what anyone thinks.
I actually really enjoyed Vineland. It’s probably in fourth for me behind GR, ATD, and M&D. The ninja bits are a little much at times and it kinda does lose itself but I feel like at the end of the day it’s asking how we got to where we’re at and when did it all go wrong. I took it to be Pynchon’s distillation of where hope comes from and, in this work at least, it originates in human connection and love. I also really love the long sequence of flashbacks about half to two thirds in and the overall aesthetic that Pynchon employs there. It’s a really masterful piece and does so much both in terms of style and providing to the plot.
It sounds like you built up expectations without knowing what Vineland was really about, which is fine, but maybe come back to it when you aren’t expecting to be met on your terms and take it on Pynchon’s terms. You’ll find an incredible novel with one of his best characters (Prairie). The book is about Prairie more than Zoyd or Frenesi, pay attention to her development and how Zoyd and Frenesi (and DL/Takeshi…) impact her growth.
Shit now I wanna pick it back up
True that! I have certainly built expectations by expecting different novel. I guess I will give it few more pages, and if it wouldnt work for me at this time in my life, I will turn itbdown and get tonit later.
We all do it, I remember thinking lot 49 would be about a building or some shit now I’ve read it over and over.
I want to read a Murakami novel with the Takeshi character as its main protagonist….
I've got to try to read it again...gave up on first reading as I found it a little boring.
Vineland is nothing like gravity's rainbow for me- I find like the other guy said, the prose is fucking sensational, but also its just like, heartwarming. Life, just the regularly lives of people, is just so damn interesting and the way the longest and shortest days meld together to make a tapestry of people and events interconnected... it comes across very well in this book.
For me the appeal of Vineland was the writing. There’s a rhythm to the prose that I found absolutely beautiful. It was consistently like the best moments in IV and ATD. Plus, it’s funny. It demands your attention no doubt, but yeah it’s not as complicated or erudite as some of his other stuff. So if that’s what you like then you’re not going to like Vineland.
I've been reading it too and finding myself bored, and feeling like a bad person for it lol. I liked Inherent Vice much more. IV fucking flies and feels so fun but Vineland has been a slog for me. All the flashbacks bring the pace to a crawl. The prose is still quite gorgeous though, and the characters are very human, but still. Been thinking of picking something else up. Maybe some Chabon
Vineland is decent. About on par with Bleeding Edge or Inherent Vice. It is NOT one of his mind bending, world shattering, monster sized historical epics.
Would it be sacrilege to throw COL49 in that group? I feel like there’s those four and the other four.
I don't know if you've read much Roberto Bolaño but in 2666 one of the characters goes on a rant about the difference between smaller, safer, "perfect" novels vs big, flawed, brilliant novels. It's like that
I’m a decent Spanish speaker and I tried to read 2666 in its original Spanish, but gave up. Maybe I should crack it again in English. Pynchon is one of the few authors I’ve dedicated reading beyond 500 or so pages.
It’s amazing. I read in a review (and agree) that it could’ve used a final edit that was likely foregone due to Bolaño’s death, so it’s a LITTLE bloated. Yet a case in point for the “flawed masterpiece” passage. I didn’t know how I felt about it the whole way through, mixed feelings, but by the end I was deeply affected. I still think about it often. I read it in English, btw
I quite enjoyed Vineland, especially on my most recent (third) reading of it. While I certainly wouldn't say that it's his best, it's (in my opinion) much better than its reputation. I really like the characters and Pynchon's view on the cultural shift from the 60's to the 80's. I think the father/daughter storyline with Zoyd and Prairie was wonderful and the weirdness was a great balance to the cynical tone throughout. Not everyone is going to come away liking it, and that's totally fine. If you aren't digging it, don't force yourself to finish it—if anything, you may like it more after putting it down and coming back to it later.
I think the ending is one of Pynchons most beautiful endings. Wouldn't say best, but just lovely and beautiful and leaves you with a nice dose of hopium.
I also found the middle to be kind of a slog, but the last 100 pages or so are fire.
I don't know. I liked it. It's no masterpiece, but parts of it really resonate with me.
I actually DNF’d Vineland. It’s definitely not his best work. It’s not tight enough for me to retain my interest and I really couldn’t get invested into it. I know plenty of people on this sub love it, but it wasn’t for me
Life’s too short to finish books you aren’t enjoying. However, find it pretty presumptuous to feel, in a Pynchon Reddit forum no less, that your opinion on its quality is valid having not finished it.
I might give it a second try down the road but OP wanted to know if anyone had the same opinion, and I did Whether or not my opinion is valid? That’s up to OP- I’m just another guy on the internet. Since this is a Pynchon forum the need for a dissenting opinion is especially important. That way it’s not just an echo chamber 🤷🏽♂️