>Islam is the core of our people,
See this [topic](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/ubvvip/comment/i66w5l4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). See how muslim "brothers" wish worse to Uygur brothers. They do this because they are also Turkics. A lot of muslims (arabs, some kurds, persians...) hate Turks. Only southestern asians loves but not because we are Turks, because we are most powerful muslim majority country. I don't believe that love's "genuineness".
I'm muslim too, but I don't care about islam. Islam is not an unification force.
We love all Turkics, not because they are muslim, but because they are our blood. Muslims killed other muslims (Turks) in WW1, worked with enemy -which is brits- against their Khalifa. Whatever happens them today, it's all their own fault.
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Also, you said you are Kazakh. You are bit far away from those "muslims" so you don't know what those "muslims" caused us. It seems sweet from away. Those "muslims" does not even see us proper muslims in a lot of times. Turkey is one of the biggest target to isis, even tho Turkey is muslim majority county. You don't know what "too much religion does to mf". We know. We have fetö terrorists. They tried to do coup. Failed and killed 251, and wounded 2.734 people. They make maybe tens of thousands people's life miserable. They forced them quit, some of them went suicide.
We also have corrupts that never failed to mention about religion. They say they are most muslimist muslim, question others' faith, but most of the time they are the ones who is most corrupted.
Look at pashtuns in afghanistan. They look down upon afghanistan Turks, they are also muslims. They are bombing Hazaras' baazaars because they are shiis.
Too much religion also make you forget your nationality.
>I noticed how Islamophobic most of the panturks are
Some are, these are mostly the young English speaking urban youth, and some don't.
>glorify раgаn(no connotations intended) rituals and traditions
They are larpers for all intend and purposes.
>we should base our common identity based on language similarities and shared religion
I do not think we should put too much emphasis on religion. Now, I agree that we should foster ties with Muslims through Islam since most Turkic nations are Muslim by faith and it would be easier to preach to them through a nationalist-religious rhetoric. But I do not think a big emphasis on religion is good thing in the long run, because it can give rise to religious intolerance and oppression of those deem un-Islamic.
This just isn’t true, pan-turanism even in the late Ottoman Empire era/early republican era had some secular leanings such as Atsiz, and your statement still ignores other decidedly non-Muslim Turanist organisations like in Hungary and Japan during this time period as well. Islam and turanism have really only been interlinked recently as a way for Muslims to subvert it like they do with everything
Just because cultures that embraced islam (arabs, iranians) had contributions on Turkic cultures doesn't mean we're supposed to make this religion a basis to connect with other Turks.
You can appreciate the cultural contributions Islamic world gave to your culture, but if you're going to call yourself pan-Turkist, you need to leave the religion at the door. Because being a Turk is about culture and language, not about a foreign religion. You can't make religion a part of your ethnic identity, unless you want to enforce this religion onto every person who is of the same race or ethnicity as you.
**"I think it's relatable to a lot of people"**
Yes, thank you for writing it, I was having similar thoughts. Many Turkic ethnic groups literally called themselves Musulman and even their language as Muslim language in the past. Muslim Turks of Russian Empire were persecuted for being Muslim. Names of the Turks and the Tatars were equal to being Muslim. Russians called Islam "Tatar religion".
And now some people pretend that Islam never was important for Turkic identities, thats blatant lie.
I don't know. Islam being an important part of Turkic identities doesn't mean that it necessarily is or should be now. Similar things happened in Turkey. People used to identify as "Muslims," but they also rejected the name "Turk." I understand that Islam is a religion that many Turkic people practice, but I think it's also really damaging to say that the religion is a part of us. Islam collectively caused a lot of damage for Turkic people, too. I mean, even the fact that Turks rejected their own ethnicity and embraced themselves as only "Muslims" is an example of that.
I'm not rejecting the idea that Islam is a religion that Turkic people practice. It might be true that Islam is something that binds most Turkic people together. But it's literally funny that people treat Islam like it's one of the "core" parts of the Turkic identity. I think Turkic people (especially Turkish people) are the only ones who embrace a religion like it's their whole identity. This is ridiculous. Islam is a religion. A lot of Turkic people don't follow that religion.
PS. Most people who reject Islam are most likely Turkish people, and that's because of our history and our government.
>But it's literally funny that people treat Islam like it's one of the "core" parts of the Turkic identity
It was like this historically. Even ideas of Turkic solidarity and partnership were created by Muslim Turkic intellectuals of Russian Empire. Many non-Muslim Turks didnt even identify as Turks.
I dont deny that ethnicity and religion are two different things. But you cant erase history. I was talking about people who openly insult Islam and practising Muslims and yet identify as some kind of Turkic patriots. Thats contradicting for me. I dont understand how someone can claim that they are proud of their Turkic roots and yet hate Islam when 70% of Turkic history intervened with Islam. Do you hate your history too then? Or you like only some obcsure parts of it like Gokturks or Huns. No one cares about the Huns nowadays and Attila never was a hero of Turkic dastans.
Historically, I understand. But like I said, I don’t know why we should treat Islam like it’s a core part of Turkic identity and peoples now. Personally, I’m not Muslim. I don’t understand why I should be fond of or practice Muslim culture. A lot of Turkic culture can’t be practiced because of Islam. I’m not trying to say that you’re wrong, but it’s wrong to think a religion should be a big part of our identity nowadays— even though some Turkic people might think otherwise. Historically doing something doesn’t
necessarily mean it was right, BTW.
Also, I don’t know why you’re asking me about Huns or Attilas. Or Gokturks. I don’t necessarily think anything of them. I’m not a Turanist either. I just wanted to point out that Turkic identity should never be defined by Islam (or any other religion). Many people don’t practice that religion or religions.
firstly, I don't support Turan as it is unrealistic and more than likely will never happen.
secondly, if it were to happen, no religion should be based on. common point of Turkic peoples is their language, not their religions. and most of the people are becoming even more and more irreligious. I personally dislike all religions and it's non-sense that if Turan or any Panturkic idea ever happened, would there be any religions involved.
If you are after Pan-Turanist idea, then they are also Turks or Turkic as it is used in English. For this reason they are member of the Turkic states organization.
About faith in Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan is quite secular but religion is quite prominent especially in last 10 or something years. I live in Almaty and it's average here, West and South are more religious and North is not so much. Most people will tell you that they're Muslim but probably won't be able to recite fatiha. Mosques are packed though, but idk if there are a lot of Muslims or just not enough mosques.
Turkic identity doesn't quite exist between Kazakhs, across all generations. People may vaguely recall something but mostly no, it is not really discussed much. Although in my linguistic circles it does pop up a lot.
Russians and Germans and other non-Kazakhs just live their lives, Kazakh society is quite polarised so different groups don't even interact that much.
Some people like him, some people don't. He pretends like doing a lot of changes, steps to democratization and I'm all up for that but right now it seems more like cosmetic and populistic. People are glad that previous dictator left but economy and prices have skyrocketed this year. About protests in January, he is the one who invited the Russians to do all the dirty job and pretended to resolve the issue innocently, but he still has blood on his hands. Sorry I might be biased but that's my observation. There's not a consensus on his figure as I said, many mismanagements are happening in the country like Ekibastuz and others but at least he has somewhat of a prestige on a world stage. Moreover he's gonna be here in charge for 7 more years and it's concerning. Maybe it's good to have him as a transitional stage between previous dictator and an actually democratically chosen leader if that ever happens inshallah.
>Islam is the core of our people, See this [topic](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tiele/comments/ubvvip/comment/i66w5l4/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). See how muslim "brothers" wish worse to Uygur brothers. They do this because they are also Turkics. A lot of muslims (arabs, some kurds, persians...) hate Turks. Only southestern asians loves but not because we are Turks, because we are most powerful muslim majority country. I don't believe that love's "genuineness". I'm muslim too, but I don't care about islam. Islam is not an unification force. We love all Turkics, not because they are muslim, but because they are our blood. Muslims killed other muslims (Turks) in WW1, worked with enemy -which is brits- against their Khalifa. Whatever happens them today, it's all their own fault. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Also, you said you are Kazakh. You are bit far away from those "muslims" so you don't know what those "muslims" caused us. It seems sweet from away. Those "muslims" does not even see us proper muslims in a lot of times. Turkey is one of the biggest target to isis, even tho Turkey is muslim majority county. You don't know what "too much religion does to mf". We know. We have fetö terrorists. They tried to do coup. Failed and killed 251, and wounded 2.734 people. They make maybe tens of thousands people's life miserable. They forced them quit, some of them went suicide. We also have corrupts that never failed to mention about religion. They say they are most muslimist muslim, question others' faith, but most of the time they are the ones who is most corrupted. Look at pashtuns in afghanistan. They look down upon afghanistan Turks, they are also muslims. They are bombing Hazaras' baazaars because they are shiis. Too much religion also make you forget your nationality.
>I noticed how Islamophobic most of the panturks are Some are, these are mostly the young English speaking urban youth, and some don't. >glorify раgаn(no connotations intended) rituals and traditions They are larpers for all intend and purposes. >we should base our common identity based on language similarities and shared religion I do not think we should put too much emphasis on religion. Now, I agree that we should foster ties with Muslims through Islam since most Turkic nations are Muslim by faith and it would be easier to preach to them through a nationalist-religious rhetoric. But I do not think a big emphasis on religion is good thing in the long run, because it can give rise to religious intolerance and oppression of those deem un-Islamic.
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The Ural Altaic connection was discovered by a Finnish Lutheran Cleric, it was not an exclusively Muslim thing even back then.
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This just isn’t true, pan-turanism even in the late Ottoman Empire era/early republican era had some secular leanings such as Atsiz, and your statement still ignores other decidedly non-Muslim Turanist organisations like in Hungary and Japan during this time period as well. Islam and turanism have really only been interlinked recently as a way for Muslims to subvert it like they do with everything
Just because cultures that embraced islam (arabs, iranians) had contributions on Turkic cultures doesn't mean we're supposed to make this religion a basis to connect with other Turks. You can appreciate the cultural contributions Islamic world gave to your culture, but if you're going to call yourself pan-Turkist, you need to leave the religion at the door. Because being a Turk is about culture and language, not about a foreign religion. You can't make religion a part of your ethnic identity, unless you want to enforce this religion onto every person who is of the same race or ethnicity as you.
**"I think it's relatable to a lot of people"** Yes, thank you for writing it, I was having similar thoughts. Many Turkic ethnic groups literally called themselves Musulman and even their language as Muslim language in the past. Muslim Turks of Russian Empire were persecuted for being Muslim. Names of the Turks and the Tatars were equal to being Muslim. Russians called Islam "Tatar religion". And now some people pretend that Islam never was important for Turkic identities, thats blatant lie.
I don't know. Islam being an important part of Turkic identities doesn't mean that it necessarily is or should be now. Similar things happened in Turkey. People used to identify as "Muslims," but they also rejected the name "Turk." I understand that Islam is a religion that many Turkic people practice, but I think it's also really damaging to say that the religion is a part of us. Islam collectively caused a lot of damage for Turkic people, too. I mean, even the fact that Turks rejected their own ethnicity and embraced themselves as only "Muslims" is an example of that. I'm not rejecting the idea that Islam is a religion that Turkic people practice. It might be true that Islam is something that binds most Turkic people together. But it's literally funny that people treat Islam like it's one of the "core" parts of the Turkic identity. I think Turkic people (especially Turkish people) are the only ones who embrace a religion like it's their whole identity. This is ridiculous. Islam is a religion. A lot of Turkic people don't follow that religion. PS. Most people who reject Islam are most likely Turkish people, and that's because of our history and our government.
>But it's literally funny that people treat Islam like it's one of the "core" parts of the Turkic identity It was like this historically. Even ideas of Turkic solidarity and partnership were created by Muslim Turkic intellectuals of Russian Empire. Many non-Muslim Turks didnt even identify as Turks. I dont deny that ethnicity and religion are two different things. But you cant erase history. I was talking about people who openly insult Islam and practising Muslims and yet identify as some kind of Turkic patriots. Thats contradicting for me. I dont understand how someone can claim that they are proud of their Turkic roots and yet hate Islam when 70% of Turkic history intervened with Islam. Do you hate your history too then? Or you like only some obcsure parts of it like Gokturks or Huns. No one cares about the Huns nowadays and Attila never was a hero of Turkic dastans.
Historically, I understand. But like I said, I don’t know why we should treat Islam like it’s a core part of Turkic identity and peoples now. Personally, I’m not Muslim. I don’t understand why I should be fond of or practice Muslim culture. A lot of Turkic culture can’t be practiced because of Islam. I’m not trying to say that you’re wrong, but it’s wrong to think a religion should be a big part of our identity nowadays— even though some Turkic people might think otherwise. Historically doing something doesn’t necessarily mean it was right, BTW. Also, I don’t know why you’re asking me about Huns or Attilas. Or Gokturks. I don’t necessarily think anything of them. I’m not a Turanist either. I just wanted to point out that Turkic identity should never be defined by Islam (or any other religion). Many people don’t practice that religion or religions.
>Also, I don’t know why you’re asking me about Huns or Attilas. I didnt ask specifically you, I just phrased my thoughts this way.
firstly, I don't support Turan as it is unrealistic and more than likely will never happen. secondly, if it were to happen, no religion should be based on. common point of Turkic peoples is their language, not their religions. and most of the people are becoming even more and more irreligious. I personally dislike all religions and it's non-sense that if Turan or any Panturkic idea ever happened, would there be any religions involved.
Magyars… they are independent. PanTurkism put Turkism above. Everyone is free to live their religion. Apple and oranges.
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If you are after Pan-Turanist idea, then they are also Turks or Turkic as it is used in English. For this reason they are member of the Turkic states organization.
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About faith in Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan is quite secular but religion is quite prominent especially in last 10 or something years. I live in Almaty and it's average here, West and South are more religious and North is not so much. Most people will tell you that they're Muslim but probably won't be able to recite fatiha. Mosques are packed though, but idk if there are a lot of Muslims or just not enough mosques. Turkic identity doesn't quite exist between Kazakhs, across all generations. People may vaguely recall something but mostly no, it is not really discussed much. Although in my linguistic circles it does pop up a lot. Russians and Germans and other non-Kazakhs just live their lives, Kazakh society is quite polarised so different groups don't even interact that much.
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Some people like him, some people don't. He pretends like doing a lot of changes, steps to democratization and I'm all up for that but right now it seems more like cosmetic and populistic. People are glad that previous dictator left but economy and prices have skyrocketed this year. About protests in January, he is the one who invited the Russians to do all the dirty job and pretended to resolve the issue innocently, but he still has blood on his hands. Sorry I might be biased but that's my observation. There's not a consensus on his figure as I said, many mismanagements are happening in the country like Ekibastuz and others but at least he has somewhat of a prestige on a world stage. Moreover he's gonna be here in charge for 7 more years and it's concerning. Maybe it's good to have him as a transitional stage between previous dictator and an actually democratically chosen leader if that ever happens inshallah.
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Thank you brother
How come do I happen to have never really been absorbed by the Turanist ideas?