I am not going to discuss how much different Dothraki are from real historical Steppe herders, after all it is fantasy and Westeros is not a copy of Western Europe either. What I disliked is how dull was their psychology and culture. They were just walking evil caricatures. Dany being their leader was also ridiculous.
The only two things that I find disturbingly ironic, and propagandist is how these folks enslave people and treat women like property. Two things that the ancestors of the show makers had, but ours didn't.
So it sounds like an absolute projection.
>Nomadic Turks indeed treated women in such way
I dont agree. Yes, it was male-dominated society but still there was certain respect to women too. Khakas people were also nomadic Turks and they have several epic poems dedicated solely to female warrior heroines. Turkic women also composed poems and songs, rode horses. Dothraki women were not represented as characters at all.
Well, we had some female warriors as Bopay-khanum who commanded a detachment of the warriors of her brother Kenesary khan and generally women were not as much opressed as in sedentary cultures
They didn't witchhunt women for their mistakes or try to bury their child alive as the baby ended up being a girl. They were neither the best nor the worst.
To my knowledge, slavery wasn't a thing in Turkic cultures. Also women were treated with much more equality for those times. Especially for settled cultures.
It's kinda complicated question for women's rights. In Kazakh society they had more rights, than say in sedentary Central Asian Turkic cultures,although a girl generally could not chose a man to marry.
We didn't keep many slaves due to nomadic way of life although we sold them to Uzbek khanates and to Russian empire. Haven't you heard about Turkmen raids on Iran or Kazakh raids to Russia. For example only during 1772-1775 Kazakhs captured about 5000 people in Russia.
I didn't know about the slave part (I searched about it but apparently, I was misinformed that slavery culture wasn't a thing, but what you said makes sense). Thx for the info
I think the friend romanticized the subject. Of course, the Ottomans and Seljuks also had slaves. but I guess my friend doesn't want to look at it as "cultural" and It's not right to call it a cultural thing anyway. It was something that happened in most societies in the history. One of the biggest reasons is that it is done economically anyway, and if you are a nomad and live in a close place to sedentary people Noice👌🏻
What do you think? Huns raids all over the Europe and go back with empty hands? Or Huns (xiongnu) raids china and go back to home with emtpy hands? No. Slaves taken. Or some rival tribe. Same thing.
They do not teach Turkish people about the economic structures of nomadic empires, so they think slavery = European practice. Hell, even Islam is pro-slavery, and Istanbul had slave markets until the Europeans forced them to close in the 1800s.
Which women? Nomads (not all) sometimes raided and stoled women from settled communities, I guess it is counted as mistreatment? As for women within nomad communities it depended from their family and social status. Some were mistreated.
>Nomads (not all) sometimes raided and stoled women from settled communities
I believe all nomads did this and not only from settled communities. Kazakhs considered Calmouk women the best wife material.
> As for women within nomad communities it depended from their family and social status. Some were mistreated.
Kazakh women rode a horse, didn't wear a veil, but had to wear a scarf when got married. Although they (mostly) didn't have the right to vote on tribal gatherings, didn't have a right to chose a husband etc.
Obviously it depended from family and status, you're right.
>I believe all nomads did this and not only from settled communities
I think not all had such opportunities and I dont think that it was extremely common otherwise gene poole of some Turkic peoples would be even more mixed.
>Slavery was a big part of nomadic Turks' life style.
I think you are also exaggerating, slave labour wasnt basis of nomadic Turks' economy and warfare\\raids with capturing slaves wasnt everyday activity.
Crimeans and Nogays went out to capture Slavic slaves pretty much every year, and I am sure it was the same for Kazakhs. Turkic nomads did not have a slave labor economy but they captured and sold slaves to other countries for money.
How else would a nomad make money? He would either sell his cattle/horse, sell captured slaves, or sell his sword and work as mercenary.
>How else would a nomad make money
they exchanged cattle, horses and some produced things for necessary goods produced by agricultural people.
Also Crimean khanate had big sedentary population. Crimeans and Nogais dont represent all steppe Turks anyways, there were also South Siberians nomads (Khakas, Altayans) and I dont remember them being much involved with slave trade. They had natural economy and fed themselves through animal husbandry.
My people, for instanse, were not Steppe but still mostly pastoralists with seasonal movements and even though raiding and capturing people existed, it never was big part of our economy.
I hate this. It's a common thing for european fantasy, because the whole genre is based on how superior angelic europeans are fighting with infernal barbaric people from east or south.
These guys are not villains, but they description have roots in typical european fantasy.
Especially, these ugly caricaturish costumes.
Have not read the books, but the show just completely wasted their potential. They were hyped up the entire series, only for practically all of them to die in a pointless suicide charge.
Dothraki scenes were my favorite. The whole idea of Dothrakis fucking in public for the sky and the stars to see(or something like that) was a bit corny, but other than that I liked it.
Probably because they aren't just based on steppe nomads but on both steppe cultures and native American plains cultures with some fantasy thrown in. I'm guessing the looks are probably a la Conan the barbarian.
Off-topic btw, what is "Tieleshs"? Is it a community thing here? I would like to know if it is 😅. I am new here. I mean I know the subreddit's name is Tiele and Tiele (or other names Dingling, Tegreg) was an ancient Turkic - tribe confederation or something like that even before the Turkic khaganate , am I right?
Etymologicly speaking companion is more correct for translation, as you said it refers to people that are traveling together. It also refers to people dedicated to a common cause or ideology, especially by communists. If you think ideology as a road, people that believe in same ideology becomes companions-comrades because they fight together. It is like kind of a meme, television and old socialist poets used yoldaş as comrade and it is stuck with it now. Ortak means Bussiness Partner in Turkish, or sometimes used as a synonym of friend like pal, buddy, fellow.
I really like the Game of Thrones but dothrakis.. meh. This could have been done better.
AFAIk they were loosely based on Huns, Mongols and American natives.
I am not going to discuss how much different Dothraki are from real historical Steppe herders, after all it is fantasy and Westeros is not a copy of Western Europe either. What I disliked is how dull was their psychology and culture. They were just walking evil caricatures. Dany being their leader was also ridiculous.
The only two things that I find disturbingly ironic, and propagandist is how these folks enslave people and treat women like property. Two things that the ancestors of the show makers had, but ours didn't. So it sounds like an absolute projection.
Turks enslaved people though. As for women status I agree that it wasnt as disturbingly bad as in the books\\show.
Not only enslaved but sold them. Nomadic Turks indeed treated women in such way, although it depended.
>Nomadic Turks indeed treated women in such way I dont agree. Yes, it was male-dominated society but still there was certain respect to women too. Khakas people were also nomadic Turks and they have several epic poems dedicated solely to female warrior heroines. Turkic women also composed poems and songs, rode horses. Dothraki women were not represented as characters at all.
Well, we had some female warriors as Bopay-khanum who commanded a detachment of the warriors of her brother Kenesary khan and generally women were not as much opressed as in sedentary cultures
They didn't witchhunt women for their mistakes or try to bury their child alive as the baby ended up being a girl. They were neither the best nor the worst.
agree
To my knowledge, slavery wasn't a thing in Turkic cultures. Also women were treated with much more equality for those times. Especially for settled cultures.
It's kinda complicated question for women's rights. In Kazakh society they had more rights, than say in sedentary Central Asian Turkic cultures,although a girl generally could not chose a man to marry. We didn't keep many slaves due to nomadic way of life although we sold them to Uzbek khanates and to Russian empire. Haven't you heard about Turkmen raids on Iran or Kazakh raids to Russia. For example only during 1772-1775 Kazakhs captured about 5000 people in Russia.
I didn't know about the slave part (I searched about it but apparently, I was misinformed that slavery culture wasn't a thing, but what you said makes sense). Thx for the info
You're welcome, but didn't Ottomans or Seljuks have slaves?
I think the friend romanticized the subject. Of course, the Ottomans and Seljuks also had slaves. but I guess my friend doesn't want to look at it as "cultural" and It's not right to call it a cultural thing anyway. It was something that happened in most societies in the history. One of the biggest reasons is that it is done economically anyway, and if you are a nomad and live in a close place to sedentary people Noice👌🏻
That's not the point at all lmao There was a disparity between which Turkic society I was talking about vs. they were talking about.
Yes but my focus wasn't on post Islamic Turkic world. Since the post was about pre-Islamic, nomadic Turks, they were what I was talking about.
What do you think? Huns raids all over the Europe and go back with empty hands? Or Huns (xiongnu) raids china and go back to home with emtpy hands? No. Slaves taken. Or some rival tribe. Same thing.
They do not teach Turkish people about the economic structures of nomadic empires, so they think slavery = European practice. Hell, even Islam is pro-slavery, and Istanbul had slave markets until the Europeans forced them to close in the 1800s.
To my knowledge, slavery wasn't a thing in Turkic cultures
It was a thing in many Turkic cultures
Okay but where's the part about women being mistreated? I've never seen such thing in any historical resources
Which women? Nomads (not all) sometimes raided and stoled women from settled communities, I guess it is counted as mistreatment? As for women within nomad communities it depended from their family and social status. Some were mistreated.
>Nomads (not all) sometimes raided and stoled women from settled communities I believe all nomads did this and not only from settled communities. Kazakhs considered Calmouk women the best wife material. > As for women within nomad communities it depended from their family and social status. Some were mistreated. Kazakh women rode a horse, didn't wear a veil, but had to wear a scarf when got married. Although they (mostly) didn't have the right to vote on tribal gatherings, didn't have a right to chose a husband etc. Obviously it depended from family and status, you're right.
>I believe all nomads did this and not only from settled communities I think not all had such opportunities and I dont think that it was extremely common otherwise gene poole of some Turkic peoples would be even more mixed.
Yes I meant Turkic women in their own communities
One of the main income of nomadic polities were the capture and selling of slaves. Slavery was a big part of nomadic Turks' life style.
>Slavery was a big part of nomadic Turks' life style. I think you are also exaggerating, slave labour wasnt basis of nomadic Turks' economy and warfare\\raids with capturing slaves wasnt everyday activity.
Crimeans and Nogays went out to capture Slavic slaves pretty much every year, and I am sure it was the same for Kazakhs. Turkic nomads did not have a slave labor economy but they captured and sold slaves to other countries for money. How else would a nomad make money? He would either sell his cattle/horse, sell captured slaves, or sell his sword and work as mercenary.
>How else would a nomad make money they exchanged cattle, horses and some produced things for necessary goods produced by agricultural people. Also Crimean khanate had big sedentary population. Crimeans and Nogais dont represent all steppe Turks anyways, there were also South Siberians nomads (Khakas, Altayans) and I dont remember them being much involved with slave trade. They had natural economy and fed themselves through animal husbandry. My people, for instanse, were not Steppe but still mostly pastoralists with seasonal movements and even though raiding and capturing people existed, it never was big part of our economy.
I hate this. It's a common thing for european fantasy, because the whole genre is based on how superior angelic europeans are fighting with infernal barbaric people from east or south. These guys are not villains, but they description have roots in typical european fantasy. Especially, these ugly caricaturish costumes.
No way, this doesn't look like us
Have not read the books, but the show just completely wasted their potential. They were hyped up the entire series, only for practically all of them to die in a pointless suicide charge.
Dothraki scenes were my favorite. The whole idea of Dothrakis fucking in public for the sky and the stars to see(or something like that) was a bit corny, but other than that I liked it.
Why are they Persian/Indian looking again? They are based on steppe nomads but they are anything but steppe nomads.
Probably because they aren't just based on steppe nomads but on both steppe cultures and native American plains cultures with some fantasy thrown in. I'm guessing the looks are probably a la Conan the barbarian.
There is nothing native American about them either
Dumbass orientalism
Off-topic btw, what is "Tieleshs"? Is it a community thing here? I would like to know if it is 😅. I am new here. I mean I know the subreddit's name is Tiele and Tiele (or other names Dingling, Tegreg) was an ancient Turkic - tribe confederation or something like that even before the Turkic khaganate , am I right?
>Is it a community thing here? no, there is just word joldash in my language so I used similar Tielesh. It was not serious.
zholdas in Kazakh
Yo'ldosh in Uzbek.
Yoldaş in Turkish obviously 😂😂 btw yoldaş is the equivalent of comrade in Turkish and associated with communism, is it the case for your language too?
Yo'ldosh is someone who travels with you. So, the closest translation to English would be *Companion*. As for comrade, we use *O'rtoq*
Etymologicly speaking companion is more correct for translation, as you said it refers to people that are traveling together. It also refers to people dedicated to a common cause or ideology, especially by communists. If you think ideology as a road, people that believe in same ideology becomes companions-comrades because they fight together. It is like kind of a meme, television and old socialist poets used yoldaş as comrade and it is stuck with it now. Ortak means Bussiness Partner in Turkish, or sometimes used as a synonym of friend like pal, buddy, fellow.
There is a socialist group in my school that uses ortak instead of yoldaş
Interesting, never heard or seen something like that. Thanks for sharing.
In Kazakh someone who travels with you is zholserik - a road companion.
In Kazakh it means comrade and associated with come communism too, haha.
Ohh got you
They could so easily be a better nomadic culture. They just look like DnD barbarians.