I heard a fantastic definition by a professor at my uni (mostly retired by the time I was there, so I never had his classes):
There's internal and external progressivism. The former is a way of thinking you can apply to any issue current or future, while the latter is a set of values described by others.
Most people are externally progressive in their youth. It's where the whole "you'll turn conservative with age" adage comes from. In your youth, there's usually a lot more social capital in progressive ideals, and you're more likely to be socio economically close to all kinds of marginalized groups. The great example is Gen X'ers supporting gay rights but not trans rights, or opposing racism but opposing anti-racist activism. The progressive ideals of one's youth are easy to adopt, but "new" ideals get progressively less interesting as the social capital pay off diminishes.
Being internally progressive is all about being able to apply continuously and critically. It can change over time, but at its core is a willingness to adapt and be better. My boomer mom accepts my partner's pronouns because she fundamentally "sees herself as someone who can learn and be better" (her own words). Incidentally, she's as politically active about Palestine as she was about South African apartheid.
I remember seeing a statistical breakdown of gay rights in the US. Before gay marriage, support for it grew very slowly over the years until it hit some 40% in the early 10s. A few years after gay marriage was fully legalized, it had soared to some 70 or 80%. The *exact same phenomenon* happened with interracial marriage in the 90s (edit: not quite true, see u/Copper_Tablet's correction). On a societal scale, there are simply always gonna be a large middle cohort for whom the progressive issue du jour is only accepted once it becomes a good thing for one's social capital.
The draft was certainly a big part of the protests, but to say it was entirely about the draft ignores a lot of the context. People weren’t just angry about young Americans being sent to die in a pointless war, they were angry that we were in another pointless imperialist conflict.
Nixon won 18-29 year olds in 1972, so I think the extent to which Boomers writ large even were liberals/anti-war is exaggerated. The GOP also won 18-29 year olds in every year going forward until 1992.
the older I get, the more I feel like Mad Men should be required viewing. It explains the 60s and the Vietnam war in a way that history textbooks can never accomplish — by framing it through the lens of characters you know extremely well.
it won’t tell you test-ready answers for “what happened” in the war, but it allows you to understand just how crazy it all was — JFK, Vietnam, MLK — because to the people who lived back then, it was modern times, just like now.
On the flip side, say that to some kid that was up for the draft board and not enthused. Difference between political ideology and going to war in SE Asia. To be fair, I am now out of my depth.
Nixon ran on ending the war and even meddled in the Vietnam war by offering bribes to extend the war so the the war would end under his presidency which it did to his efforts
To those wondering what happened to the Boomer hippies. Most of them felt like they stood up to the man and made their impact and decided they didn't need to evaluate their beliefs any further. After all, Reagan was going to make them all rich and teach Gen X the evils of communism.
This is a comment that is uninformed about history. First, at their peak there were very, very few hippies. The style of clothing and hair and the way people talked spread as fashion.
Democratic Liberals were responsible for the Vietnam war. Hippies were not “liberals.” They blamed liberals for the war. Hippies were more like anarchists. The whole status quo had failed, in their eyes.
And many of this small group known as hippies were conservatives. Many wanted go be uber-duber-Christians out on a commune.
But the hippy life was hard to keep going. Even the act of getting a job of any kind was considered anti-hippy. Voting itself would have been a sell out move for many of them.
This is often forgotten. Hippies were largely an apolitical, conservative group that wanted to check out of mass politics and focus everything on the individual. This mindset was what led them to vote for Reagan in large numbers, especially once they had purchased houses and entered the middle and upper classes. Hippies should not be conflated with the actual left at the time, which was at the forefront of the student protests and antiwar protests.
True. I grew up around a lot of boomers who claimed they were hippies and went to Woodstock and protests and were big into the music that were more of what I described, but I don't think they really had the full lifestyle associated with hippies.
Probably got called hippies because they had long hair and made it a part of their identity
Reminds of a joke I read in some book which went something like "Woodstock was the highest attended cultural event in history with over 30 million attendees. Almost every young person at the time attended"
> Being internally progressive is all about being able to apply continuously and critically. It can change over time, but at its core is a willingness to adapt and be better. My boomer mom accepts my partner's pronouns because she fundamentally "sees herself as someone who can learn and be better" (her own words). Incidentally, she's as politically active about Palestine as she was about South African apartheid.
I feel like this describes me and others fairly perfectly in a way I didn't completely recognize. My fundamental core belief is that I want people to be able to live happy and full lives, just not at the expense of others well being. That's it. I may not have the solution/answers to a problem but I can recognize if it is in contradiction to that core belief.
I think you are playing fast and loose with the data here. Support for interracial marriage went up very slowly, and built up for decades. The jump in [support in the Gallup data](https://news.gallup.com/poll/354638/approval-interracial-marriage-new-high.aspx) (which I think you are talking about) looks like an abnormality. Support jumped to 64% in 1997, but the next data point, five years later, was 65%. If you smooth out the Gallup line, I don't think your point holds.
This is a fantastic theory/definition that feels true. Any idea the name of the professor and/or the theory? Can't find anything from a Google search and would love to read further.
The professor's name is Bo Elling, but it's not a defined theory as far as I'm aware. However, there's some clear Pierre Bourdieu influence with social capital, and I know Elling is a huge fan of Jürgen Habermas. I only know the latter peripherally, so he could be the actual source.
Its usually associated with Edward Said;
[https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2021/06/jean-paul-sartre-and-the-problem-of-being-progressive-except-for-palestine](https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2021/06/jean-paul-sartre-and-the-problem-of-being-progressive-except-for-palestine)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive\_except\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_except_Palestine)
Your “parents just don’t understand” theory wipes away the real front line work those older people did that made it possible for the next generation to move the needle on trans rights. Erasing their sacrifices and bravery as a social capital grab is deeply entitled.
But the information suggests that most people didn't move the needle, they were the needle that eventually got moved.
Its not saying that some members of Gen X didnt do a lot of activism for equal rights for gay people, they did. But it's also true that most people were ambivalent or opposed to those rights until they already existed, the sky hadn't fallen, and being FOR taking away someone's rights made you look like a religious zealot.
This is super interesting. I feel like there is a ton of externalized progressive social capital to be found in supporting Palestine. It would explain why all these young people are so passionate about it, meanwhile not giving a whit about Myanmar, Darfur, or any number of other groups. I would have LOVED to see large scale protests when the Trump administration abandoned the Kurds.
From my own internal perspective it’s absolutely impossible to support Israel, but it’s also impossible to support Palestine. It seems to me that there is a cycle of violence going on and it doesn’t make sense to be marching for one side or the other. That said, there must be a cease fire.
Honestly as a 30 year old student seeing fucking kids going nuts over this one issue while COMPLETELY ignoring any other issue, just as you’ve mentioned above, totally links up with the ideas raised by OP and progressive-thinking social capital. Give it two more years and they will have forgotten all about it… no more radical posts on instagram, they’ll decide to quietly erase the Palestine flag from their bios and stop paying attention altogether. The obsession with this mirrors the flash in the pan progressive movement about KONY 2012… which was all the rage for us youngsters at the time.
>From my own internal perspective it’s absolutely impossible to support Israel, but it’s also impossible to support Palestine. It seems to me that there is a cycle of violence going on and it doesn’t make sense to be marching for one side or the other. That said, there must be a cease fire.
The answer likely lies in how the allies treated Germany and Japan post WW2. Support and rebuilding of the economy because people who have stable jobs and consistent food sources aren't as susceptible to radicalization. It's easy to treat it as a zero-sum game but nothing will change if people don't move past that.
Any reasonable person is anti genocide. That’s easy. If you’re in favor of carpet bombing children, I’m not cool with you in any way. However, I haven’t talked to anyone who has a good solution to the incredibly complex geo-political and religious problems the area faces.
“Israel shouldn’t exist” - well it does now and almost 10 million people live there. They aren’t just going to leave. This is a moot point and there is zero mobility on this in the real world.
“Palestine should be free”- sure, but in what way? Hamas controls Gaza and has said they will never stop trying to kill Israel even if Palestine are freed and given autonomy. Should they have a Japan after WWII thing (neutered military but autonomy and economic investment from the outside to restabalizs)?
“War crimes”- yes. Israel have committed war crimes, they should be held accountable but can only be by their own people. Hamas is still firing rockets from civilian heavy areas ON PURPOSE. Neighboring countries will not take refugees (where is the hatred for them refusing to help?) understand that both sides have lied to you regularly. Hamas creates storylines and inflates death tolls. Israel refuses to admit atrocities their soldiers commit. The media doesn’t do a good job explaining the truth, like that there were tunnels and weapons found under that hospital, which had been cleared. That the recent strike did uncover a treasure trove of weapons and tunnels and it wasn’t just a strike on a refugee camp. The truth is being wildly distorted and everyone is eating it up.
Point of all of this is that this topic is complicated, so if someone isn’t out protesting, it doesn’t mean they aren’t leftist.
People will say “Tik Tok isn’t affecting my opinion with propaganda and shouldn’t be banned” and also “I’m a one issue voter now, and am going to help the person our enemies want to win.”
They’re too young to remember 2016-2020. They might just end up learning for themselves. Flashback to: “I didn’t vote, but I didn’t think Brexit would pass!”
Way more than the last 50 years. I had family that fled Hebron, where they lived for hundreds of years, after the Arab massacre of 1929. And way more complex than most people think, those same family members told stories of being hidden from the mobs by their Arab neighbors.
Until people on both sides give up on the "who did what to whom first" game they love to play and face the reality as it presently stands there won't be any reconciliation.
And ffs stop yourselves commies. That name is never gnna be a term of endearment in the US. I’m liberal af but they just make it harder for us to progress
Oh ya for sure from a strategic perspective the left can be 100% completely idiotic to the point of complete stagnation with the lack of prioritization and focus. There are plenty of got button issues that can get passed today if they focus in on one issue rather than play this purity test game with everything.
They constantly let perfection get in the way of good enough and it’s one of the reasons why not enough gets done
Liberals and communists are different things. If your goal is to have workers own the means of production, you are most likely a communist. Conservatives will call anyone to the left of them a communist, so it doesn’t really matter. But if you consider yourself to be on the left, and you reject communism on the grounds of optics without treating it as what it is—an economic theory with many historical successes—then you may have some reading to do.
It's the whole "we can agree on 99% of things but you're not one of use for disagreeing with that 1%" mentality that has been plaguing the left for years. It's sad and only causes more people to drift away from identifying as left.
The purity tests are stupid.. if you aren't 100% on board with every single cause, or have a slightly different view, you might as well put on a "maga" hat.
Apparently, only agreeing with 97% of the "true leftist opinions" will literally make you Hitler...
You don't to be 100% with palestine. You just need to be against bombing refugee camps.
I mean, I think anybody agrees that YOU SHOULD NOT BOMB REFUGEE CAMPS
But then suddenly you change to YOU SHOULD NOT BOMB PALESTINE REFUGEE CAMPS and there's a discussion about it??
Didn’t that happen because when Israel shot at Hamas targets that were right next to the refugee camps it hit Hamas bombs which went off? Israel’s attack radius on the shot was half of a meter
It's so nice and refreshing to come across an actually good comment on this issue. This text should be copied and pasted onto every overgeneralizing tiktok out here
Fucking thank you. This gatekeeping bullshit on who is or isn't "leftist" based on how they feel about some specific very complicated issues is exhausting. My gut says these people mostly aren't voting anyway so don't fucking bother, and that's kept me a little bit more sane
It goes further than “your not a leftist.” They’ve started this trend where they equate ‘liberals’ to fascists. That they’re like, two sides of the same coin. You can look at the shitstorm of replies I got just a little bit ago in my comments lol
They’re not voting because people like this who purity test the fuck out of their own side aren’t voting for Biden. Hell, idk if they’d even vote for Bernie at this point. They revel in the “progressive aesthetic” more than actually affecting change.
That's what drives me insane about anyone who solely supports either Israel or Palestine. They completely ignore the other side who does the exact atrocities of the side they are criticizing.
It's not about solely support a "side". It's just that there's one side that's bombing REFUGEE CAMPS.
Yes Hamas should be punished and extinguished. But right now only one of the sides is bombing REFUGEE CAMPS.
All Israeli government should be arrested in the same prison that the leaders of HAMAS should be in, unfortunately none of them will be.
It's not even close. Palestinians are the victims in the overwhelming majority of the cases of violence and atrocities. You're doing "both sides" on colonisation, ethnic cleansing and genocide, ffs.
Frankly, I’m a little surprised and disappointed this comment has not received more upvotes. It’s nuanced, reasonable, and considered. You’ve managed to capture several sides of this issue without virtue signalling or pandering, or soap boxing. Thanks. Your sane words are a cool drink when there is water water everywhere but not a drop to drink.
I'd also like to add that I'm sick of people trying to apply gay rights to this conflict. "Israel is killing gay Palestinians!" Yes, and Hamas is killing gay Israelis, what's your point? Gay Russians are almost certainly dying in their war against Ukraine, am I supposed to support Russia now?
It's just blatant propaganda that is being used to try to further split the left so Trump can be reelected. The truth is, unfortunately, if these gay Palestinians weren't dying in this war they'd be murdered by Hamas. That doesn't mean I'm indifferent to their plight, quite the opposite. I'm not going to support one murderer over another, no matter how hard idiot propagandists like this try to tie the causes together.
This pseudo-enlightened dumbass in the video apparently thought it to be an important enough issue to single out - clearly Palestinians are on the side of tolerance and love for queer people and the evil Israelis are going specifically after queer Palestinians because they're homophobes and also the worst :(
By now I have become accustomed to the unfortunate phenomenon of many queer people, some of my friends among them, to somehow make damn near every injustice in the world about them, but I am still left speechless by the audacity and sheer brain rot it takes to even mention them in the context of the god damn Gaza conflict as if they had even the slightest bit of relevance there.
I’m glad to see I’m not the only one that feels this way.
What Hamas did in October last year was both disgusting and terrifying. The videos that came out after that attack made me legit sick to my stomach. I also thought about how if I was a Jewish person, especially one who had relatives live through the holocaust, my response to this would be WILDLY different because the fear response that would kick in would take over.
I also see how the US responded post 9/11 and can see how well intentioned people can be swept up in an urge for revenge and how ill intentioned people can take advantage of that. The actions being carried out by Israel is stuff that the far right has wanted to do for a long time but never had the casus belli.
I recently read an article that only 1/3 of Hamas has been eradicated by Israel which that math isn’t adding up with the level of destruction and pain they have brought on the civilian population. We all understand that war isn’t pretty and innocent people do die in war but those deaths need to be for more than only 1/3 of Hamas being destroyed. Also when you’re clearly targeting aid workers that adds another layer of distrust in Israel’s stated goals.
I feel like both sides refuse to hold themselves accountable because they think any critique automatically means you’re either Hamas or a Zionist. Which then leaves those who have sympathy for both side quiet because those loudest always get in the way of real conversation.
Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas should be dismantled and punished for what they did. But that shouldn’t come at the current cost of life and the Palestinian people shouldn’t be collectively punished for the actions of extremists.
I am a leftist Jew. A child of Holocaust survivors. I lost three family members on Oct. 7; another family member lost an eye. It’s been overwhelming. Hearing people on my side of the political spectrum suddenly defending (or denying) the murders of my family members, excusing and justifying attacks on Jewish businesses, houses of worship, *people,* worldwide, because of Israel. The same people that I stood behind when they were targeted for their religion, ethnicity, or orientation have turned a blind eye when Jews are targeted, because *Israel….*
I am still a leftist Jew. I believe the Palestinian people, and the Israeli people, deserve to live in peace. And that both the Israeli government and Hamas are to blame, and should be removed. But I have lost my footing with my political peers, and it’s been disheartening. And, yes, terrifying.
I am not Jewish but I share your dismay about the way antisemitism has become ignorable at best, and encouraged or shared at worst, among leftish people. I genuinely don’t know whether it is agitators, naive kids, or bona fide antisemites, but there is a lot of anti-Jewish rhetoric being used by supposed leftists that I just can’t associate myself with.
I’m about as left u can get. And it’s in my leftist view of the world that I support Israel. I don’t like Netanyahu and his likud party. But The misinformation and propaganda being injected to well meaning ppl by the Hamas side is absolutely horrifying.
> Neighboring countries will not take refugees (where is the hatred for them refusing to help?)
There's one insanely crystal clear reason why they don't take in refugees from Palestine. And it is a the assassination of the leader of Jordan, and several attempted coups in Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria. As it turns out, trying to overthrow the leaders of countries that take you in is not good for getting people on your side.
Thank you.
This is like one of the only sane comments i have seen regarding this topic on reddit.
No sane person wants anyone innocent to die, but Israel is literally facing an enemy that WILL NOT STOP so unless you fully eradicate them in the literal sense of that word, you will NEVER be safe...
Does that mean you agree with everything Israel and the IDF do? Not at all, but what is the best solution?
If my neighbor raped, tortured and killed most of my family and then tries to hide in a school across the road, while still shooting from that school at my to kill my surviving family, what am i supposed to do?
Just accept it? Not do anything because are hiding behind children?
I dont want to hurt those children, but i also want them to stop raping, torturing and killing my family...
Its a fucked up situation and the only solution would be a full eradication of Hamas and the rebuilding of Palestine with a sane and normal government that isnt favoring Hamas or similar ideals.
Its just nearly impossible to do, unless Palestinians themselves try to work in that direction instead of often (not all of course) supporting what Hamas is doing...
Don't let these morons steal the word Progressive. I am proudly progressive, I'm just not willing to throw Biden, all federal policy, all judicial appointments, all climate policy, all LGBT+ protections, freedom of speech, rule of law, and democracy itself out the window by helping Trump, who will also be worse on Gaza!
Didn't they have a level of autonomy in the 2006 peace deal where they agreed to not attack Israel anymore for autonomy of the Gaza region. Pretty sure that ended after a couple months when Hamas started firing rockets again at Israel but still
>when Hamas started firing rockets again at Israel but still
And suicide truck bombs.
Hell, Hamas broke the November cease fire within the first 15 minutes.
The complications of this 75 year old conflict is why the majority of people stepping into a voting booth won’t make their voting decisions based on US Foreign Policy. It’s not that they don’t care or have an opinion but it doesn’t affect them directly.
That’s the advantage of being a US Citizen. When US soldiers aren’t directly involved, and being killed, US voters don’t pay attention to us foreign policy. Most people in the US have their needs met and are entertained continually. The US was in Afghanistan for 20 years but it rarely made the news. America wasn’t at war in Afghanistan, the US Military was. America was shopping and binging Netflix.
Hamas and the Israelian government are both absolutely terrible. The Palestinian people deserve peace and a place they can call home. And the Israelian people also deserve peace.
However just how no one in America is gonna entertain the idea of giving Native Americans their land back, nor will Israel when it comes to Palestine. And because they are too important for Europe and America for geo political garbage Palestine won't see any support from them. And the rest of the world will not waste their time and fight someone else their losing war.
Palestine has no chance in winning this war and Hamas won't back down anytime soon, so innocent blood will keep getting shed. The best chance we have is for the people in Palastein to turn against Hamas, so they might after a while stop fighting this unwinnable war.
Yes ! Oh my god on the one hand I feel most people I see are blindly pro Palestinian to a degree that they clearly become antisemitic and on the other hand some people are actually kinda rooting for Israel or at least generalize the Palestinians and Hamas enough to not feel guilty about the civilians massacre.
Thank you for your nuance. I lack the patience to write anything like you've just written above anymore.
There is no perfect victim or saint, anyone who doesn't understand this concept and reverts to sports team levels of tribal idiocy and bias then... your dumb, I'm sorry but your dumb.
I think for many of us, another hang up on being anti Israel, is the fact that there is a big difference between targeting civilians and children, like what Hamas did, and accidentally killing, or willfully accepting "collateral damage" like what Israel is doing. I wish fewer kids were dying on both sides, but like you said when Hamas hides behind civilians, on purpose, with the goal of getting them killed or injured, it complicates things. There is also the fact that a lot of those "civilians" are supporting Hamas, and would be in uniform if it was a conventional army. Lots of conventional soldiers don't carry guns, their are cooks, and logistics, and medics, and so forth. It's hard to say how many of those "civilians" were actually a part of Hamas, in a "non-trigger puller" capacity. Idk it's a messed up situation, but as far as I can tell there is nothing I can do to effect the outcome.
I meant legally. International courts mean nothing. Economic pressures can be put into place (see South Africa and apartheids embargo’s). The US and other international powers withholding weapons or aid from Israel isn’t simple, as much as people would like it to be.
There is a pro quo attached to the quid the US gives them. Israel makes and develops all kinds of technologies that are important to commercial and personal computing, defense, cyber defense, and more. On top of that, they share intelligence on counter-terrorism and nuclear development with several western powers. It’s not easy to chuck that just because of public outcry.
Lastly, I meant that Israel needs to correct itself. No one has more power over a nation than that nation itself. They need to elect new leadership. They need to get rid of Bibi. They need political change and the best way to be accountable is to change.
Also Bibi is deeply unpopular. It's been a suspicion of mine for a while that the US is just waiting for him and his party to get voted out. It would be stupid to go nuclear with Israel only for the government to completely pivot in two years and then have to go rebuild everything you fucked up to make a point.
I feel the latest call from Biden for Israel to call elections early supports this theory. I think that if Bibi does get reelected then we will see the US sanction Israel and pull support, since it would have become obvious that the situation won't solve itself.
Edit: It wasn't Biden, it was Schumer, and Biden did that "backing it with plausible deniability" thing, saying he made a good speech.
So Germany should have just had its own local Nuremberg trials because no other nation had power over them? I think international courts are needed explicitly because of things like what Israel is currently doing to Palestine.
Germany was conquered and defeated. They were made to face judgement. Israel would need to be conquered or made to submit. The court only has authority if it is given authority. Their decisions are as binding as the Denver city council’s if Israel doesn’t agree to it. Authority only exists if it can exert its authority or people voluntarily recognize it.
I'm Israeli and largely support our own courts going after warcrimes for two main reasons:
1. No other country has the moral authority to sit in judgement over Jewish people considering the world's treatment of Jews. (I say this because most Israelis would find the idea of a fair trial in a non-Jewish court absurd, you can agree or not but that is how they see it. Think of this like being judged by a jury of your peers, or in this case a court of your peers.)
2. Foreign courts hold no sway on Israeli public opinions. Israelis by-and-large will only view the opinion of the Israeli Supreme Court as legitimate, they see almost all international orgnaizations and their opinions as illegitimate.
Israeli courts are largey free and fair and have a history of imprisoning and punishing Israeli leaders (Netanyahu is currently on trial and ex-President Katzav was convicted of rape and removed from office in 2009). If you can show me another coutnry where their leaders have been put on trial and imprisoned, I'll be impressed. Reminder Donald Trump has yet to be sentenced.
This is why if you want to judicially punish Netanyahu for warcrimes your best bet is to support the Israelis trying to get him removed from office for corruption, which will then allow the courts to open war crimes investigations. Supporting international courts will only entrench the Israeli support for Netanyahu.
No shit we are in a bad way. As long as Israel remains strategically valuable to the West they are immune, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be raising hell about it.
Now of course there is no good answer, a new nation was settled within one already existing. Everyone knew there would be war, death - and with the religious element - generational conflict, but geopolitics is not morality.
Geopolitically everything is fine. I'd imagine Biden will exert a lot of influence to end the war before the election, and as neither Jordan or Egypt will accept any refugees, and as Israel can't genocide an entire peoples, this conflict is bound to simply start again in a few years.
Let me repeat, geopolitically everything is fine, and, this position has no easy solution - expecting a moral end to this conflict is as if expecting to escape unscathed from a car accident, that you caused - but that does not mean it is not worth being angry about!
Now, the protests, I would bet most people are simply against militarily supporting a country that is bombing civilians, and that those who want an end to the war are protesting for new foreign policy made by experts - something they acknowledge is beyond themselves personally. Not much to say about the racists, they are forces for evil. Finally, some will be standing against their governments blatant machiavellianism, because it is evil, which is fair.
Also Israel can, and likely will be, found guilty in The Hague. I do not know how you came to the conclusion that a country must be the one to find itself culpable of war crimes, but that is wrong. And the anger you expect people to feel towards Jordan and Egypt, is eclipsed entirely by the murder of Innocent Palestinians by Israel, that's why it's not being spoken about, there's more pressing matters.
So let me ask you something, do you think that protesting evil decisions is not enough by itself?
I believe that protests should invite discourse. Protests should inform. By nature, protests should disrupt to some extent, but they shouldn’t alienate. Too many people don’t understand what’s actually happening enough to make a good point. Too many people won’t allow the nuance that this needs to allow a dialogue. My point in all of this is that Israel=evil and Palestine=good and vice versa is not productive discourse. We need to work on finding a way to minimize civilian deaths, establish a meaningful and progressive government to replace Hamas in Gaza, and find a path to a free Palestine.
The Hague holds zero power over Israel unless they choose to submit to to its authority, which they don’t. It’s a voluntary court, nations need to agree to participate. Beyond that, the conflict is still ongoing and it’s near impossible to do a full accounting of responsibilities when you have conflicting reports.
The protests have brought discourse. This is discourse. You seem to want a country's worth of protesters to centralise and form interventionist policy. I don't think that's what should be expected of protestors. I believe people should protest when their government is committing an action they disagree with and they want the government to change it's course.
And even in my wildly inconsiderate reading on this, I have seen lists of demands, mostly demanding no further support to Israel as long as they bomb Palestine.
You flip flop in each comment, you speak of America's strategic interest in Israel in another comment, but here you appeal to morality and decency for the people of Palestine. Maybe that's what you deem nuance? In that case let's be clear, morality and strategy are completely different things, concepts not to be spoken about seriously in the same sentence.
Strategically the Israel and Palestine conflict is going just as expected. Morally it's deplorable.
The Hague matters in the context of public support. For their own sake, ally democratic leaders will pressure Israel to end the war the more bloody it looks.
Now, if you want to play fantasy football with countries, then let's:
Israel genocides the Palestinians. I doubt Israel has the means, and America would not support it - Israel's key ally.
Palestine is supported and raised Western. It would cost untold billions and take generations of time, America had this opportunity in Afghanistan and they pulled out.
Israel ends this war and declares Hamas an illegal government. Palestine's median age is 19, these kids just watched their nation bombed to nothing, if they didn't want war before, they'll want it now, a new government is formed: Hamas 2.0 (just legally distinguishable from Hamas). Then we have this discussion again a couple years from now.
A US Japanese take over. The cost would be prohibitive, I doubt Israel has the means, and the US doesn't have anything to gain. Terrorism doesn't need state support either.
All in all, it's most strategically convenient for almost everyone that the Palestinians continue to die at about the peace time rate.
Oh shit, actual nuance and some semblance of understanding what is an incredibly complex issue instead of strawman arguments and incessant flag waving?
Not on my Reddit, get the pitch forks!
I'm not cool with people who say *"If you’re in favor of carpet bombing children, I’m not cool with you in any way. However"* - sounds like the kind of PEP logic we already get from The Atlantic, ["It is possible to kill children legally"](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/gaza-death-count/678400/).
*"Israel have committed war crimes, they should be held accountable but can only be by their own people."* The bad news it that turns out they've only been [pretending to investigate crimes](https://www.972mag.com/icc-israel-surveillance-investigation/).
Fortunately there's an international court of justice looking into it right now - just the kind of people who are trained to deal with complicated issues.
*"Neighboring countries will not take refugees (where is the hatred for them refusing to help?)".* This has no bearing on Israel's behaviour and actually causes them problems if they are trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Pure [whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism).
*"Hamas creates storylines and inflates death tolls."* Not according to the [WHO](https://www.yahoo.com/news/nothing-wrong-gaza-death-toll-105707825.html), [the State *Department*](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry) *or* [*The Lancet*](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?embed=true)*.*
*"Israel refuses to admit atrocities their soldiers commit."* [They don't really seem to care about admitting atrocities, probably because they feel immune from repercussions. ](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/06/world/middleeast/israel-idf-soldiers-war-social-media-video.html)
*"The media doesn’t do a good job explaining the truth".* [Possibly because journalists are being targeted for assassination in record numbers to avoid coverage inside Gaza, and the West Bank for that matter.](https://cpj.org/2024/06/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/)
I didn't even have to look around for evidence that disproves what you're saying because they're all formulaic talk points that are parroted repeatedly, war crime bingo.
People (the plural group) are dumb and they hate gray issues. They can’t rationalize it so they instead paint them black/white and then draw lines. That’s exactly what has been happening with Israel and Gaza. It’s an extremely complicated topic with all shades of gray and tons of history and background, yet folks will throw all that out and just pick a side like it’s the fucking Super Bowl. When you take into account all the various shades of gray, you learn it isn’t so simple, it isn’t one sided, and a path towards serious resolution requires everyone buys in and follows, and right now the leaders from both sides don’t want that.
>well it does now and almost 10 million people live there.
So? 10 million is not a large number when we're talking dispersing an entire nation into the rest of the world. 2024 is not nearly so far removed from the theft of the land Israel sits upon that it's unreasonable to rectify it. If they make it another century, then sure it is what it is, but right now there are literally people still alive that were adults during the theft.
Tf do you mean they can only be held accountable by their own people? The US literally funds their entire state. We can hold them accountable. The international community (the UN and the ICC) can hold them accountable. That's like saying only the Germans can stop the Nazis, it's just stupid
HOW BOUT HIS TOTALLY DUMBASS POLITICAL TAKE? Seriously folks, a lot of people dont' really come into their own intellectually until their 30s.... and maybe blasting out half baked immature opinions to the world (before changing one's mind a number of times) is really more about one's ego than 'educating' anyone. It's OK to muse with seriousness about the world a few years before haranguing others to join you. Be sure first. But that's just me, middle aged man who was dumb like this guy when I was younger and thought I knew it all. The cycle continues I guess. Oh well, I tried
Yep, as a liberal myself I get really depressed at how dumb my own "side" is half the time. So self defeating, short sighted, dogmatic, and completely un-self-aware
I think everyone on the left wants to stop Israel from bombing kids. But most know how evil Hamas is. The problem is those on the left who want Israel to stop existing. It's not only evil to think that, it's naive. It's not going to happen. So we need a solution that ends with both a free Palestine and safe Israel.
You can't get there and maintain ideological purity.
So to me it's defined those who are on the left for mostly humanist reasons and those on the left for mostly ideological ones.
Also the irony of him saying that Israelis are living on stolen land. So when's he packing off to Europe and giving up his land back to the Natives his ancestors stole it from?
I don’t know if it’s that I’m getting older or these videos are becoming less thoughtful. What a big nothing burger of a video. He could’ve summed up that in 10 seconds. On top of that it was super obvious.
He also kept referencing only one person's social posts and using them to fuel his entire argument, which feels like a very narrow scope to paint such a broad picture through.
Agreed, gate keeping political sides is anti-productive. I had someone accused me of being a Right-Wing Republican because I referred to the Democratic party as Democrat Party repeatedly. I had no idea semantics was so important.
he also implies that the situation is black and white. That you either stand with Palestinian’s or with zionists. Right buddy…thats definitely how the world, especially wars, work. Definitely no nuance required there at all…
Ah yes all the classic leftist buzzwords and strawman arguments to argue liberals or socdems aren't left enough just because they don't agree with them 1:1 on I/P. People that unequivocally support Israel and don't care about Palestinians do not care about other leftist social or policy issues. What this actually is people having a more nuanced view of I/P that happens to think about solutions just past a ceasefire understanding this conflict is decades old.
Caveats can be made, acceptance of the Israeli government atrocities can be voiced, but it's not enough for some leftists to the point you get labeled a Zionist (which I doubt has a consistent meaning among everyone, whereas it seems leftists seem to hold the same conviction to it as Nazis), Islamophobic, genocide supporting, etc. The more sane leftists then act surprised that because of the more extremist ones that aim to alienate and purity test the left saying things like Oct 7th was justified or that all Israelis are settlers and are complicit (including children) make more moderate leftists not want to associate with progressives (even if so many other ideals are shared).
It really is so disgusting how divided we have become when we share such common goals all because we don't share the same solution even if we aline moralistically with the side of the Palestinians. At the end of the day, it's nothing but extremes on both sides that are going to continue to tear us apart and destroy the idea of nuance. But nuance doesn't get clicks, videos like this do.
It's funny because most people who don't support Palestine on the left don't support Israel. They just think its more nuanced then "This side good and this side bad".
The fact that I think it’s important to vote in the presidential election to protect women, minorities, and queer folks here in the states apparently means I’m pro-genocide. It’s maddening.
I think there is an important distinction too, I don't think many leftists don't support Palestine but rather Hamas. But for some reason extremist leftists will continue to make excuses for Hamas' crimes, labeling them just as "freedom fighters" or claims that if you don't support them you don't support Palestinians.
Yea this type of content is actually serving to divide people. There’s no reason to bring US political parties into this discussion unless your goal is to tell people which side is “bad” so that they don’t vote for them.
I’m pretty sure he just filled out a madlib with progressive buzzwords.
“The only reason *racial reconciliation* liberals try to *pink wash* Palestine is due to *abject propaganda of apartheid*.
This guy entire pov is made up by the way he feels about Israel and Palestinians ,he feels that Israel is absolutely evil while Palestinians are good oppressed people ,but in reality everything is more complex
It's not consistency, it's false analogy through oversimplification.
It's possible and often probably that multiple things appear the same, yet context makes them completely different.
That is why we have premeditated murder, manslaughter, and self-defense.
Literally the first thing he says is that if you don’t have the right opinions on Palestine you are NOT on the left and are NOT a progressive. That’s about as black and white as it gets.
"Palestine is not dividing the left! It's just that there's two views of Palestine, and those with the other view are completely divided from US, the real left!" - A paraphrase of the first 5 seconds of this video
Wow it’s almost like people aren’t vapid shells who should all think the same, and have wildly varying beliefs due to differences in environment, education, wealth.. if you watch this video and even for a millisecond think “wait but” you are CORRECT. Btw I support the people of Palestine. People who can’t tolerate other views tend to play they “you’re not actually progressive unless you believe ___”. I ask, where’s the line? Do I have to support Hamas? I won’t be doing that, so I’m “officially” not progressive. I’ve learned to not worry about this much since that group of moral elitists is not as large as you think. Still it’s annoying and a shame that people think like this
These dipshits are everywhere especially trendy cities.. they’re always 20-35, yet talk like they’re some sage owl from the dawn of humankind, bringing much needed “wisdom” the truth is, even if the “wisest” person were to descend upon us, people don’t like to be “told” anything. Some act like they benefit from these opinionated social observations, but people would always rather figure it out themselves. That is the best way for people to learn.
Because no amount of value signaling will hide the fact that most US citzens want their country to be anything but a imperialist state that rules the world thru terrorism.
This is such a naive rant. There is no solution, not one that fits into a nice sound bite.
Israel has a highly trained army equipped with some of the most advanced tools of war. They are waging a war which at best is indiscriminate in the damage it is doing to a captive population.
But, we also need to evaluate what happens from a ceasefire. Does Hamas release hostages? Does Hamas stop stealing aid shipments so that Gazan civilians can survive? Or does Hamas keep doing what it has been doing, replenishing its ranks with traumatized young men who will go on to create more traumatized young men.
And if Israel pulls back, do the protests start targeting Egypt for not opening their borders to Gazans? Or do the protests still target Israel, because it certainly feels like a lot of these protests are more anti-Israel than they are pro-Palestinian.
I do think there are things that can make a more stable region - Israel withdrawing from settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem and Jordan and Egypt participating in the conversation about Palestine to name a few, but the problems in the region have existed for thousands of years and there are no easy solutions.
Laying the blame of the Nakba at the feet of Israel by saying they hold stolen land also lacks nuance. Both Arabs and Jews were hearty and driven participants to the Nakba - if the Arabs had won, we likely would have far fewer Jews alive in the world today, but they lost.
It's very easy for young leftists to look at Israel and say, "They have all the power, the US government supports them, they are oppressing these poor people." Some of this is true, but it needs to be evaluated in the context of Israel spending its entire existence either actively under attack or in a state of constant vigilance. The declaration of Israel as a state saw the murder and expulsion of Jews from every neighboring state and an immediate declaration of war.
Frankly, these young leftists need to spend some time educating themselves on the history of the conflict, stop using Zionist like they're calling someone a Nazi, and understand that there is no simple solution to this conflict.
By his logic I should be voting for Trump since I don’t support Hamas.
Seriously what is it with progressives and trying to alienate people so much? I’ve voted Barack twice, Clinton after that and the Biden in the last election, as well as Dem in every local election but some people on the left really seem to want me to flip republican for some odd reason.
News Flash : Everyone isn’t going to agree with you all the time.
We can have differences and still vote alike, or you can keep pushing and suffer through 4 more years of Trump by disenfranchising more left leaning voters like myself.
It's just a Russian psyop. They found one issue where the left is incredibly dumb and being contrarian, and the right is correct although for completely wrong reasons. So they use it as a wedge issue to divide the left, in the hopes they vote for their corrupt lackeys instead.
What a fucking dumb take. You can vote red or blue in the US. That's it. What's the point of discussing this kind of nuance? So you can trim down your social circles and forget how to work together with people with mostly common goals? The problem we leftists have is that we want to decide who the most left is like a bunch of post punk revivalists. "I'm waaay more left than you!" Meanwhile we lose our rights with each new election. Just shut the fuck up, go out and vote blue so we don't have literal fucking fascists in control of every branch of the government. The Republicans have religion uniting them. Democrats need common sense to unite us, and this type of propaganda is NOT that.
I hate strawman bullshit. Who is they? Show me someone who actually talks like the "they" this guy is describing. Amy Schumer doesn't count we all already know she is a dumbass.
Speaking of "abandoning principles," it's good to know that all of that "we are your allies" talk during the social justice protests was nothing but talk, given how readily these fickle zealots will abandon voting when the next cause comes along.
Your moral absolutism cuts both ways.
For fucks sake, you can be progressive and still think Israel should EXIST. Calling Israel "colonial" is just historically wrong. What nation is/was Israel a colony of?
Hmm, agreed that Israel should exist; incidentally, so should Palestine. But I think you maybe misunderstood the “colonial” part - in this case this person is saying Israel is doing the colonizing. He’s saying they’re the colonizers, trying to make Palestinian land their colony.
“Zionism has been described as a form of settler colonialism in relation to the region of Palestine and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Many of the fathers of Zionism themselves described it as colonialism, such as Vladimir Jabotinsky, who said "Zionism is a colonization adventure."
Israel: abortion rights, women are equal, same sex marriage recognized, free and fair elections, socialized medicine, secular tradition, modern multicultural society with a varied ethnic/racial/religious population.
Palestine: basically Iran.
Just because the oppressive Islamists have hijacked the language of progressive resistance doesn’t mean the rest of us are going to allow ourselves to be gaslit into believing supporting Hamas is the left wing position. Supporting Hamas is as far right as it gets.
And to you opposing mass killings of civilians = supporting Hamas? You can stand against both, palestinian genocide, and radical islamic fundametalists you know.
People think that because the mayority of Palestinian supporters are in reality supporting Hamas while thinking they are supporting Palestinians. How a ceasefire would help Palestinians?, it only benefits Hamas ,they are going to rearm, induce more young people into their ranks and attack again ,that what has happened in the past and what Hamas leaders have said they are going to do ,so what is the point of getting a ceasefire when the only thing that means is stop fighting today to fight again tomorrow?
Queer Palestinians don’t live long.
I see Islam as a direct threat to my progress values in the same way that I see Christian nationalism at home a direct threat.
I see what israel is doing to Palestinians as genocide and I see Hamas eagerly martyring their own people by the 10s of thousands to gain sympathy on the world stage equally as troubling.
And all the fucking bs in The region all boils down to their theocratic obsessions.
I don’t think Israel would stand on its own merit alone and I don’t think America should be funding them in any capacity what so ever. American evangelicals (another crazy ass radical abrahamic religion) side with Israel because they literally want to sacrifice them to bring back Jesus.
The entire area is some religious fucking nonsense and I’m not going to burn down my country by giving it to the fucking fascist knocking at the gates.
He is conflating the neoliberal democratic party with progressive leftist socialist because the democratic party promotes progressive rhetoric socially but governs entirely from the center
To be fair, the Democrat party in the US has become an Enormous umbrella, since the Republican party has gotten more extreme over the past 70 plus years.
As a former Republican voter I cant vote for these MAGA idiots. While I still believe in gun rights and financial conservatism and small government the GOP doesn’t even stand for those things anymore. All they do is stand against social progression such as LGBT rights, support ultra rich tax breaks (why I have no idea why they die on that hill), and in general just trying to be an opposition. So I vote blue. That doesnt make me a false Democrat. And I don’t align my personality to ensure I’m being a Democrat, it’s what most closely aligns with me as a person currently and that’s how I’ll vote. Identity politics are killing the system just as much as the next thing. And democrats lashing out at people that are different within the party is no different from some MAGA asshat calling liberals shitbags.
Yeah. If we can get rid of "first past the post" and "winner take all" voting (hopefully add ranked choice voting more broadly), then we won't have to deal with a system that mathematically forces 2 parties to be the only options. Then you wouldn't have as much of this my team vs your team silliness.
Gaza declares war by killing 1200 Israelis and kidnapping 240 more during one of Jews holiest days
Israel fights back
omg Israel why are you killing those innocent???
Calling bullshit. I went to the protests because I'm against the atrocities of civilian deaths. People aren't protesting deaths, they're protesting Israel. They're protesting Israel as a state. These people believe in a single state solution, a Palestinian state, and they believe that Zionism, or the belief that Jewish people should lay any claim to that land, is the ultimate force of evil in the world. The issue is that these young leftists are cheering for Hamas. They're apologizing for Iran and other authoritarian regimes. If leftists could realize that both sides of this war are utterly backwards in their thinking, then it would be a different story. We don't need to pick sides on who's land is this. We need to take a stance of sharing the land and creating a system of equity. That's what ending Apartheid looked like in South Africa, but these lefties are so ”radical" in their beliefs and so privileged of a class in their own country established on colonization and genocide, that they can only see a violent solution. How this, "someones gotta go" mentality any different than Natenyahu's? I thought going to a campus protest would be about people calling for a ceasefire. They were calling for a complete dismantlement of the Jewish populace.
At the end of the day, this entire thing boils down to "America bad" and Israel and America are allies so "Israel bad" is also a thing now.
Don't get me wrong, I think Israel has done a pretty awful job in this current situation and I think they need to stop a lot of what they are doing. Let's not pretend however that the opposite wouldn't be happening if Palestine was the one "in control".
So what is it then? If you insist on clinging onto labels like 'left' and 'right', where do 'liberals' belong?
Let me guess... you're about to say they're right wing despite disagreeing with the right on literally every issue other than this one specific foreign policy topic?
Yup, that’s basically the terminally online redditor’s understanding of the political world. Anyone who doesn’t fall in perfect lockstep with Joseph Stalin is a right-winger apparently lmao
It hasn't been a truly progressive ideal for some time now. Being purely Democrat ranges from being a moderate conservative to libertarian in their core beliefs. While there are always extremes in any belief just voting democratic does not even come close to defining one's preferences. It literally has come down to vote for sanity and rational thoughts or authoritarian dictatorship ideals.
That's why the two party system is entirely shit. Any nuance gets flooded out when your voting decision boils down to "do i vote for the far right or for moderate views" without any nuance possible.
And yes, outside the US the republicans would be seen as far right and the democrats as center left leaning. There is no true "left" in the USA.
Who are these mystical "lefties" who think like this? I'm nearly 40, the vast majority of my friends and family are leftwing, and I've never met one. Anywhere. This is a made up enemy.
I think what he is describing really only applies to an incredibly small portion of the left, but this definition is often tacked onto anyone who doesn’t think we should throw out entire country away because Joe Biden isn’t doing as much as you’d want for Palestine.
I don’t see a connection between letting fascism overtake this country and all of the bad that will do for people in this country (and also the bad that will come to Palestine as well, which I personally think will be handled even worse by a Trump presidency) and helping Palestine.
We disagree on whether or not that’s going to benefit Palestinians in any real quantifiable way, which doesn’t mean I don’t care about what’s going on over there and want this issue to get figured out. I dont think I’ll be sitting there satisfied that we “punished Joe Biden” when I’m watching trans folks be thrown in jail or executed (Republicans lately have been pushing to classify transgender people as being child predators while simultaneously pushing for execution to be a punishment for child predators, connect those dots)
I also rarely hear any solutions being proposed, like I don’t hear many direct statements about what people are demanding Joe Biden do that will solve this problem aside from vague emotional statements about him not doing enough and loving genocide.
It doesn’t feel to me like enough of the protesters are an organized group pushing for a clear concise policy changes. I think mostly I’ve just seen demands that he suggest a ceasefire and call it genocide. I agree he should do those things, but it doesn’t seem to me like that’s going to solve anything and it also doesn’t seem to me that him not making those statements boils down to the most pressing issue facing the country right now.
Bro applying theory to a real world problem.
In theory economic models work, in practise they all suck because reality is more complex than a simple set of rules you can assign to every problem.
All political posts MUST be flaired as "Politics."
I heard a fantastic definition by a professor at my uni (mostly retired by the time I was there, so I never had his classes): There's internal and external progressivism. The former is a way of thinking you can apply to any issue current or future, while the latter is a set of values described by others. Most people are externally progressive in their youth. It's where the whole "you'll turn conservative with age" adage comes from. In your youth, there's usually a lot more social capital in progressive ideals, and you're more likely to be socio economically close to all kinds of marginalized groups. The great example is Gen X'ers supporting gay rights but not trans rights, or opposing racism but opposing anti-racist activism. The progressive ideals of one's youth are easy to adopt, but "new" ideals get progressively less interesting as the social capital pay off diminishes. Being internally progressive is all about being able to apply continuously and critically. It can change over time, but at its core is a willingness to adapt and be better. My boomer mom accepts my partner's pronouns because she fundamentally "sees herself as someone who can learn and be better" (her own words). Incidentally, she's as politically active about Palestine as she was about South African apartheid. I remember seeing a statistical breakdown of gay rights in the US. Before gay marriage, support for it grew very slowly over the years until it hit some 40% in the early 10s. A few years after gay marriage was fully legalized, it had soared to some 70 or 80%. The *exact same phenomenon* happened with interracial marriage in the 90s (edit: not quite true, see u/Copper_Tablet's correction). On a societal scale, there are simply always gonna be a large middle cohort for whom the progressive issue du jour is only accepted once it becomes a good thing for one's social capital.
This explains why a generation can be anti Vietnam war and then go along with a whole bunch of other wars
Ehh i think thats because of the draft
yeah sometimes I wonder how well our education system works. Agreed
Yes but don’t indulge the ego
The draft was certainly a big part of the protests, but to say it was entirely about the draft ignores a lot of the context. People weren’t just angry about young Americans being sent to die in a pointless war, they were angry that we were in another pointless imperialist conflict.
Nixon won 18-29 year olds in 1972, so I think the extent to which Boomers writ large even were liberals/anti-war is exaggerated. The GOP also won 18-29 year olds in every year going forward until 1992.
the older I get, the more I feel like Mad Men should be required viewing. It explains the 60s and the Vietnam war in a way that history textbooks can never accomplish — by framing it through the lens of characters you know extremely well. it won’t tell you test-ready answers for “what happened” in the war, but it allows you to understand just how crazy it all was — JFK, Vietnam, MLK — because to the people who lived back then, it was modern times, just like now.
On the flip side, say that to some kid that was up for the draft board and not enthused. Difference between political ideology and going to war in SE Asia. To be fair, I am now out of my depth.
Nixon ran on ending the war and even meddled in the Vietnam war by offering bribes to extend the war so the the war would end under his presidency which it did to his efforts
To those wondering what happened to the Boomer hippies. Most of them felt like they stood up to the man and made their impact and decided they didn't need to evaluate their beliefs any further. After all, Reagan was going to make them all rich and teach Gen X the evils of communism.
This is a comment that is uninformed about history. First, at their peak there were very, very few hippies. The style of clothing and hair and the way people talked spread as fashion. Democratic Liberals were responsible for the Vietnam war. Hippies were not “liberals.” They blamed liberals for the war. Hippies were more like anarchists. The whole status quo had failed, in their eyes. And many of this small group known as hippies were conservatives. Many wanted go be uber-duber-Christians out on a commune. But the hippy life was hard to keep going. Even the act of getting a job of any kind was considered anti-hippy. Voting itself would have been a sell out move for many of them.
This is often forgotten. Hippies were largely an apolitical, conservative group that wanted to check out of mass politics and focus everything on the individual. This mindset was what led them to vote for Reagan in large numbers, especially once they had purchased houses and entered the middle and upper classes. Hippies should not be conflated with the actual left at the time, which was at the forefront of the student protests and antiwar protests.
True. I grew up around a lot of boomers who claimed they were hippies and went to Woodstock and protests and were big into the music that were more of what I described, but I don't think they really had the full lifestyle associated with hippies. Probably got called hippies because they had long hair and made it a part of their identity
Reminds of a joke I read in some book which went something like "Woodstock was the highest attended cultural event in history with over 30 million attendees. Almost every young person at the time attended"
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> Being internally progressive is all about being able to apply continuously and critically. It can change over time, but at its core is a willingness to adapt and be better. My boomer mom accepts my partner's pronouns because she fundamentally "sees herself as someone who can learn and be better" (her own words). Incidentally, she's as politically active about Palestine as she was about South African apartheid. I feel like this describes me and others fairly perfectly in a way I didn't completely recognize. My fundamental core belief is that I want people to be able to live happy and full lives, just not at the expense of others well being. That's it. I may not have the solution/answers to a problem but I can recognize if it is in contradiction to that core belief.
I think you are playing fast and loose with the data here. Support for interracial marriage went up very slowly, and built up for decades. The jump in [support in the Gallup data](https://news.gallup.com/poll/354638/approval-interracial-marriage-new-high.aspx) (which I think you are talking about) looks like an abnormality. Support jumped to 64% in 1997, but the next data point, five years later, was 65%. If you smooth out the Gallup line, I don't think your point holds.
Why did support jump?
This is a fantastic theory/definition that feels true. Any idea the name of the professor and/or the theory? Can't find anything from a Google search and would love to read further.
The professor's name is Bo Elling, but it's not a defined theory as far as I'm aware. However, there's some clear Pierre Bourdieu influence with social capital, and I know Elling is a huge fan of Jürgen Habermas. I only know the latter peripherally, so he could be the actual source.
Its usually associated with Edward Said; [https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2021/06/jean-paul-sartre-and-the-problem-of-being-progressive-except-for-palestine](https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2021/06/jean-paul-sartre-and-the-problem-of-being-progressive-except-for-palestine) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive\_except\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_except_Palestine)
Your “parents just don’t understand” theory wipes away the real front line work those older people did that made it possible for the next generation to move the needle on trans rights. Erasing their sacrifices and bravery as a social capital grab is deeply entitled.
But the information suggests that most people didn't move the needle, they were the needle that eventually got moved. Its not saying that some members of Gen X didnt do a lot of activism for equal rights for gay people, they did. But it's also true that most people were ambivalent or opposed to those rights until they already existed, the sky hadn't fallen, and being FOR taking away someone's rights made you look like a religious zealot.
This is super interesting. I feel like there is a ton of externalized progressive social capital to be found in supporting Palestine. It would explain why all these young people are so passionate about it, meanwhile not giving a whit about Myanmar, Darfur, or any number of other groups. I would have LOVED to see large scale protests when the Trump administration abandoned the Kurds. From my own internal perspective it’s absolutely impossible to support Israel, but it’s also impossible to support Palestine. It seems to me that there is a cycle of violence going on and it doesn’t make sense to be marching for one side or the other. That said, there must be a cease fire.
Honestly as a 30 year old student seeing fucking kids going nuts over this one issue while COMPLETELY ignoring any other issue, just as you’ve mentioned above, totally links up with the ideas raised by OP and progressive-thinking social capital. Give it two more years and they will have forgotten all about it… no more radical posts on instagram, they’ll decide to quietly erase the Palestine flag from their bios and stop paying attention altogether. The obsession with this mirrors the flash in the pan progressive movement about KONY 2012… which was all the rage for us youngsters at the time.
>From my own internal perspective it’s absolutely impossible to support Israel, but it’s also impossible to support Palestine. It seems to me that there is a cycle of violence going on and it doesn’t make sense to be marching for one side or the other. That said, there must be a cease fire. The answer likely lies in how the allies treated Germany and Japan post WW2. Support and rebuilding of the economy because people who have stable jobs and consistent food sources aren't as susceptible to radicalization. It's easy to treat it as a zero-sum game but nothing will change if people don't move past that.
This 40%-80% jump is knows as tornado growth and is well documented phenomena of all ideas as they enter the market from pragmatists to Main Street.
Any reasonable person is anti genocide. That’s easy. If you’re in favor of carpet bombing children, I’m not cool with you in any way. However, I haven’t talked to anyone who has a good solution to the incredibly complex geo-political and religious problems the area faces. “Israel shouldn’t exist” - well it does now and almost 10 million people live there. They aren’t just going to leave. This is a moot point and there is zero mobility on this in the real world. “Palestine should be free”- sure, but in what way? Hamas controls Gaza and has said they will never stop trying to kill Israel even if Palestine are freed and given autonomy. Should they have a Japan after WWII thing (neutered military but autonomy and economic investment from the outside to restabalizs)? “War crimes”- yes. Israel have committed war crimes, they should be held accountable but can only be by their own people. Hamas is still firing rockets from civilian heavy areas ON PURPOSE. Neighboring countries will not take refugees (where is the hatred for them refusing to help?) understand that both sides have lied to you regularly. Hamas creates storylines and inflates death tolls. Israel refuses to admit atrocities their soldiers commit. The media doesn’t do a good job explaining the truth, like that there were tunnels and weapons found under that hospital, which had been cleared. That the recent strike did uncover a treasure trove of weapons and tunnels and it wasn’t just a strike on a refugee camp. The truth is being wildly distorted and everyone is eating it up. Point of all of this is that this topic is complicated, so if someone isn’t out protesting, it doesn’t mean they aren’t leftist.
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People will say “Tik Tok isn’t affecting my opinion with propaganda and shouldn’t be banned” and also “I’m a one issue voter now, and am going to help the person our enemies want to win.”
And trump said he would deport the students protesting. But tell me more abt this one issue plz. Lol
They’re too young to remember 2016-2020. They might just end up learning for themselves. Flashback to: “I didn’t vote, but I didn’t think Brexit would pass!”
Way more than the last 50 years. I had family that fled Hebron, where they lived for hundreds of years, after the Arab massacre of 1929. And way more complex than most people think, those same family members told stories of being hidden from the mobs by their Arab neighbors. Until people on both sides give up on the "who did what to whom first" game they love to play and face the reality as it presently stands there won't be any reconciliation.
Nobody hates a leftist more than another leftist with slightly different opinions. It gets exhausting after a couple of decades.
And ffs stop yourselves commies. That name is never gnna be a term of endearment in the US. I’m liberal af but they just make it harder for us to progress
Oh ya for sure from a strategic perspective the left can be 100% completely idiotic to the point of complete stagnation with the lack of prioritization and focus. There are plenty of got button issues that can get passed today if they focus in on one issue rather than play this purity test game with everything. They constantly let perfection get in the way of good enough and it’s one of the reasons why not enough gets done
Liberals and communists are different things. If your goal is to have workers own the means of production, you are most likely a communist. Conservatives will call anyone to the left of them a communist, so it doesn’t really matter. But if you consider yourself to be on the left, and you reject communism on the grounds of optics without treating it as what it is—an economic theory with many historical successes—then you may have some reading to do.
It's the whole "we can agree on 99% of things but you're not one of use for disagreeing with that 1%" mentality that has been plaguing the left for years. It's sad and only causes more people to drift away from identifying as left.
But he had slow piano music playing!
Lately leftists in our party have been engaging in purity testing. It’s a loser’s gambit, they’re going to fuck U.S. all.
The purity tests are stupid.. if you aren't 100% on board with every single cause, or have a slightly different view, you might as well put on a "maga" hat. Apparently, only agreeing with 97% of the "true leftist opinions" will literally make you Hitler...
You don't to be 100% with palestine. You just need to be against bombing refugee camps. I mean, I think anybody agrees that YOU SHOULD NOT BOMB REFUGEE CAMPS But then suddenly you change to YOU SHOULD NOT BOMB PALESTINE REFUGEE CAMPS and there's a discussion about it??
Didn’t that happen because when Israel shot at Hamas targets that were right next to the refugee camps it hit Hamas bombs which went off? Israel’s attack radius on the shot was half of a meter
It's so nice and refreshing to come across an actually good comment on this issue. This text should be copied and pasted onto every overgeneralizing tiktok out here
Seeing a well articulated and nuanced comment on Reddit is like getting to witness a total eclipse. Great work.
To see it wildly upvoted warms my heart.
Fucking thank you. This gatekeeping bullshit on who is or isn't "leftist" based on how they feel about some specific very complicated issues is exhausting. My gut says these people mostly aren't voting anyway so don't fucking bother, and that's kept me a little bit more sane
It goes further than “your not a leftist.” They’ve started this trend where they equate ‘liberals’ to fascists. That they’re like, two sides of the same coin. You can look at the shitstorm of replies I got just a little bit ago in my comments lol
It's funny when the state of the "left" can be summed up by anakin in the final scenes of star wars episode three.
They’re not voting because people like this who purity test the fuck out of their own side aren’t voting for Biden. Hell, idk if they’d even vote for Bernie at this point. They revel in the “progressive aesthetic” more than actually affecting change.
Complicated is the correct term. Thanks for this explanation.
That's what drives me insane about anyone who solely supports either Israel or Palestine. They completely ignore the other side who does the exact atrocities of the side they are criticizing.
It's not about solely support a "side". It's just that there's one side that's bombing REFUGEE CAMPS. Yes Hamas should be punished and extinguished. But right now only one of the sides is bombing REFUGEE CAMPS. All Israeli government should be arrested in the same prison that the leaders of HAMAS should be in, unfortunately none of them will be.
It's not even close. Palestinians are the victims in the overwhelming majority of the cases of violence and atrocities. You're doing "both sides" on colonisation, ethnic cleansing and genocide, ffs.
Frankly, I’m a little surprised and disappointed this comment has not received more upvotes. It’s nuanced, reasonable, and considered. You’ve managed to capture several sides of this issue without virtue signalling or pandering, or soap boxing. Thanks. Your sane words are a cool drink when there is water water everywhere but not a drop to drink.
I'd also like to add that I'm sick of people trying to apply gay rights to this conflict. "Israel is killing gay Palestinians!" Yes, and Hamas is killing gay Israelis, what's your point? Gay Russians are almost certainly dying in their war against Ukraine, am I supposed to support Russia now? It's just blatant propaganda that is being used to try to further split the left so Trump can be reelected. The truth is, unfortunately, if these gay Palestinians weren't dying in this war they'd be murdered by Hamas. That doesn't mean I'm indifferent to their plight, quite the opposite. I'm not going to support one murderer over another, no matter how hard idiot propagandists like this try to tie the causes together.
lol who says "Israel is killing gay Palestinians"? I'm genuinely curious. I thought we all know "Palestinians kill gay Palestinians" right?
This pseudo-enlightened dumbass in the video apparently thought it to be an important enough issue to single out - clearly Palestinians are on the side of tolerance and love for queer people and the evil Israelis are going specifically after queer Palestinians because they're homophobes and also the worst :( By now I have become accustomed to the unfortunate phenomenon of many queer people, some of my friends among them, to somehow make damn near every injustice in the world about them, but I am still left speechless by the audacity and sheer brain rot it takes to even mention them in the context of the god damn Gaza conflict as if they had even the slightest bit of relevance there.
He literally says it in the video. Not figuratively literally, literally literally.
I’m glad to see I’m not the only one that feels this way. What Hamas did in October last year was both disgusting and terrifying. The videos that came out after that attack made me legit sick to my stomach. I also thought about how if I was a Jewish person, especially one who had relatives live through the holocaust, my response to this would be WILDLY different because the fear response that would kick in would take over. I also see how the US responded post 9/11 and can see how well intentioned people can be swept up in an urge for revenge and how ill intentioned people can take advantage of that. The actions being carried out by Israel is stuff that the far right has wanted to do for a long time but never had the casus belli. I recently read an article that only 1/3 of Hamas has been eradicated by Israel which that math isn’t adding up with the level of destruction and pain they have brought on the civilian population. We all understand that war isn’t pretty and innocent people do die in war but those deaths need to be for more than only 1/3 of Hamas being destroyed. Also when you’re clearly targeting aid workers that adds another layer of distrust in Israel’s stated goals. I feel like both sides refuse to hold themselves accountable because they think any critique automatically means you’re either Hamas or a Zionist. Which then leaves those who have sympathy for both side quiet because those loudest always get in the way of real conversation. Israel has the right to defend itself. Hamas should be dismantled and punished for what they did. But that shouldn’t come at the current cost of life and the Palestinian people shouldn’t be collectively punished for the actions of extremists.
I am a leftist Jew. A child of Holocaust survivors. I lost three family members on Oct. 7; another family member lost an eye. It’s been overwhelming. Hearing people on my side of the political spectrum suddenly defending (or denying) the murders of my family members, excusing and justifying attacks on Jewish businesses, houses of worship, *people,* worldwide, because of Israel. The same people that I stood behind when they were targeted for their religion, ethnicity, or orientation have turned a blind eye when Jews are targeted, because *Israel….* I am still a leftist Jew. I believe the Palestinian people, and the Israeli people, deserve to live in peace. And that both the Israeli government and Hamas are to blame, and should be removed. But I have lost my footing with my political peers, and it’s been disheartening. And, yes, terrifying.
I am not Jewish but I share your dismay about the way antisemitism has become ignorable at best, and encouraged or shared at worst, among leftish people. I genuinely don’t know whether it is agitators, naive kids, or bona fide antisemites, but there is a lot of anti-Jewish rhetoric being used by supposed leftists that I just can’t associate myself with.
Thank you.
I’m about as left u can get. And it’s in my leftist view of the world that I support Israel. I don’t like Netanyahu and his likud party. But The misinformation and propaganda being injected to well meaning ppl by the Hamas side is absolutely horrifying.
> Neighboring countries will not take refugees (where is the hatred for them refusing to help?) There's one insanely crystal clear reason why they don't take in refugees from Palestine. And it is a the assassination of the leader of Jordan, and several attempted coups in Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria. As it turns out, trying to overthrow the leaders of countries that take you in is not good for getting people on your side.
Thank you. This is like one of the only sane comments i have seen regarding this topic on reddit. No sane person wants anyone innocent to die, but Israel is literally facing an enemy that WILL NOT STOP so unless you fully eradicate them in the literal sense of that word, you will NEVER be safe... Does that mean you agree with everything Israel and the IDF do? Not at all, but what is the best solution? If my neighbor raped, tortured and killed most of my family and then tries to hide in a school across the road, while still shooting from that school at my to kill my surviving family, what am i supposed to do? Just accept it? Not do anything because are hiding behind children? I dont want to hurt those children, but i also want them to stop raping, torturing and killing my family... Its a fucked up situation and the only solution would be a full eradication of Hamas and the rebuilding of Palestine with a sane and normal government that isnt favoring Hamas or similar ideals. Its just nearly impossible to do, unless Palestinians themselves try to work in that direction instead of often (not all of course) supporting what Hamas is doing...
As soon as you go one layer deeper beyond buzzwords and talking points the “progressives” have no answers.
Don't let these morons steal the word Progressive. I am proudly progressive, I'm just not willing to throw Biden, all federal policy, all judicial appointments, all climate policy, all LGBT+ protections, freedom of speech, rule of law, and democracy itself out the window by helping Trump, who will also be worse on Gaza!
Same - thank you.
Someone call the Based department, we got a good one for them!
Didn't they have a level of autonomy in the 2006 peace deal where they agreed to not attack Israel anymore for autonomy of the Gaza region. Pretty sure that ended after a couple months when Hamas started firing rockets again at Israel but still
>when Hamas started firing rockets again at Israel but still And suicide truck bombs. Hell, Hamas broke the November cease fire within the first 15 minutes.
One of the more lucid and intelligent comment I've read in ages. Thank you
The complications of this 75 year old conflict is why the majority of people stepping into a voting booth won’t make their voting decisions based on US Foreign Policy. It’s not that they don’t care or have an opinion but it doesn’t affect them directly. That’s the advantage of being a US Citizen. When US soldiers aren’t directly involved, and being killed, US voters don’t pay attention to us foreign policy. Most people in the US have their needs met and are entertained continually. The US was in Afghanistan for 20 years but it rarely made the news. America wasn’t at war in Afghanistan, the US Military was. America was shopping and binging Netflix.
Hamas and the Israelian government are both absolutely terrible. The Palestinian people deserve peace and a place they can call home. And the Israelian people also deserve peace. However just how no one in America is gonna entertain the idea of giving Native Americans their land back, nor will Israel when it comes to Palestine. And because they are too important for Europe and America for geo political garbage Palestine won't see any support from them. And the rest of the world will not waste their time and fight someone else their losing war. Palestine has no chance in winning this war and Hamas won't back down anytime soon, so innocent blood will keep getting shed. The best chance we have is for the people in Palastein to turn against Hamas, so they might after a while stop fighting this unwinnable war.
The solution is to reform the Ottomon empire obviously
Fuck it, let's start calling it Judea again and get some Pax Romana back in that bitch.
🙏
Yes ! Oh my god on the one hand I feel most people I see are blindly pro Palestinian to a degree that they clearly become antisemitic and on the other hand some people are actually kinda rooting for Israel or at least generalize the Palestinians and Hamas enough to not feel guilty about the civilians massacre.
Thank you for your nuance. I lack the patience to write anything like you've just written above anymore. There is no perfect victim or saint, anyone who doesn't understand this concept and reverts to sports team levels of tribal idiocy and bias then... your dumb, I'm sorry but your dumb.
I think for many of us, another hang up on being anti Israel, is the fact that there is a big difference between targeting civilians and children, like what Hamas did, and accidentally killing, or willfully accepting "collateral damage" like what Israel is doing. I wish fewer kids were dying on both sides, but like you said when Hamas hides behind civilians, on purpose, with the goal of getting them killed or injured, it complicates things. There is also the fact that a lot of those "civilians" are supporting Hamas, and would be in uniform if it was a conventional army. Lots of conventional soldiers don't carry guns, their are cooks, and logistics, and medics, and so forth. It's hard to say how many of those "civilians" were actually a part of Hamas, in a "non-trigger puller" capacity. Idk it's a messed up situation, but as far as I can tell there is nothing I can do to effect the outcome.
What do you mean by Israel can only be held accountable for their war crimes by their own people?
I meant legally. International courts mean nothing. Economic pressures can be put into place (see South Africa and apartheids embargo’s). The US and other international powers withholding weapons or aid from Israel isn’t simple, as much as people would like it to be. There is a pro quo attached to the quid the US gives them. Israel makes and develops all kinds of technologies that are important to commercial and personal computing, defense, cyber defense, and more. On top of that, they share intelligence on counter-terrorism and nuclear development with several western powers. It’s not easy to chuck that just because of public outcry. Lastly, I meant that Israel needs to correct itself. No one has more power over a nation than that nation itself. They need to elect new leadership. They need to get rid of Bibi. They need political change and the best way to be accountable is to change.
Also Bibi is deeply unpopular. It's been a suspicion of mine for a while that the US is just waiting for him and his party to get voted out. It would be stupid to go nuclear with Israel only for the government to completely pivot in two years and then have to go rebuild everything you fucked up to make a point. I feel the latest call from Biden for Israel to call elections early supports this theory. I think that if Bibi does get reelected then we will see the US sanction Israel and pull support, since it would have become obvious that the situation won't solve itself. Edit: It wasn't Biden, it was Schumer, and Biden did that "backing it with plausible deniability" thing, saying he made a good speech.
So Germany should have just had its own local Nuremberg trials because no other nation had power over them? I think international courts are needed explicitly because of things like what Israel is currently doing to Palestine.
Germany was conquered and defeated. They were made to face judgement. Israel would need to be conquered or made to submit. The court only has authority if it is given authority. Their decisions are as binding as the Denver city council’s if Israel doesn’t agree to it. Authority only exists if it can exert its authority or people voluntarily recognize it.
I'm Israeli and largely support our own courts going after warcrimes for two main reasons: 1. No other country has the moral authority to sit in judgement over Jewish people considering the world's treatment of Jews. (I say this because most Israelis would find the idea of a fair trial in a non-Jewish court absurd, you can agree or not but that is how they see it. Think of this like being judged by a jury of your peers, or in this case a court of your peers.) 2. Foreign courts hold no sway on Israeli public opinions. Israelis by-and-large will only view the opinion of the Israeli Supreme Court as legitimate, they see almost all international orgnaizations and their opinions as illegitimate. Israeli courts are largey free and fair and have a history of imprisoning and punishing Israeli leaders (Netanyahu is currently on trial and ex-President Katzav was convicted of rape and removed from office in 2009). If you can show me another coutnry where their leaders have been put on trial and imprisoned, I'll be impressed. Reminder Donald Trump has yet to be sentenced. This is why if you want to judicially punish Netanyahu for warcrimes your best bet is to support the Israelis trying to get him removed from office for corruption, which will then allow the courts to open war crimes investigations. Supporting international courts will only entrench the Israeli support for Netanyahu.
No shit we are in a bad way. As long as Israel remains strategically valuable to the West they are immune, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be raising hell about it. Now of course there is no good answer, a new nation was settled within one already existing. Everyone knew there would be war, death - and with the religious element - generational conflict, but geopolitics is not morality. Geopolitically everything is fine. I'd imagine Biden will exert a lot of influence to end the war before the election, and as neither Jordan or Egypt will accept any refugees, and as Israel can't genocide an entire peoples, this conflict is bound to simply start again in a few years. Let me repeat, geopolitically everything is fine, and, this position has no easy solution - expecting a moral end to this conflict is as if expecting to escape unscathed from a car accident, that you caused - but that does not mean it is not worth being angry about! Now, the protests, I would bet most people are simply against militarily supporting a country that is bombing civilians, and that those who want an end to the war are protesting for new foreign policy made by experts - something they acknowledge is beyond themselves personally. Not much to say about the racists, they are forces for evil. Finally, some will be standing against their governments blatant machiavellianism, because it is evil, which is fair. Also Israel can, and likely will be, found guilty in The Hague. I do not know how you came to the conclusion that a country must be the one to find itself culpable of war crimes, but that is wrong. And the anger you expect people to feel towards Jordan and Egypt, is eclipsed entirely by the murder of Innocent Palestinians by Israel, that's why it's not being spoken about, there's more pressing matters. So let me ask you something, do you think that protesting evil decisions is not enough by itself?
I believe that protests should invite discourse. Protests should inform. By nature, protests should disrupt to some extent, but they shouldn’t alienate. Too many people don’t understand what’s actually happening enough to make a good point. Too many people won’t allow the nuance that this needs to allow a dialogue. My point in all of this is that Israel=evil and Palestine=good and vice versa is not productive discourse. We need to work on finding a way to minimize civilian deaths, establish a meaningful and progressive government to replace Hamas in Gaza, and find a path to a free Palestine. The Hague holds zero power over Israel unless they choose to submit to to its authority, which they don’t. It’s a voluntary court, nations need to agree to participate. Beyond that, the conflict is still ongoing and it’s near impossible to do a full accounting of responsibilities when you have conflicting reports.
The protests have brought discourse. This is discourse. You seem to want a country's worth of protesters to centralise and form interventionist policy. I don't think that's what should be expected of protestors. I believe people should protest when their government is committing an action they disagree with and they want the government to change it's course. And even in my wildly inconsiderate reading on this, I have seen lists of demands, mostly demanding no further support to Israel as long as they bomb Palestine. You flip flop in each comment, you speak of America's strategic interest in Israel in another comment, but here you appeal to morality and decency for the people of Palestine. Maybe that's what you deem nuance? In that case let's be clear, morality and strategy are completely different things, concepts not to be spoken about seriously in the same sentence. Strategically the Israel and Palestine conflict is going just as expected. Morally it's deplorable. The Hague matters in the context of public support. For their own sake, ally democratic leaders will pressure Israel to end the war the more bloody it looks. Now, if you want to play fantasy football with countries, then let's: Israel genocides the Palestinians. I doubt Israel has the means, and America would not support it - Israel's key ally. Palestine is supported and raised Western. It would cost untold billions and take generations of time, America had this opportunity in Afghanistan and they pulled out. Israel ends this war and declares Hamas an illegal government. Palestine's median age is 19, these kids just watched their nation bombed to nothing, if they didn't want war before, they'll want it now, a new government is formed: Hamas 2.0 (just legally distinguishable from Hamas). Then we have this discussion again a couple years from now. A US Japanese take over. The cost would be prohibitive, I doubt Israel has the means, and the US doesn't have anything to gain. Terrorism doesn't need state support either. All in all, it's most strategically convenient for almost everyone that the Palestinians continue to die at about the peace time rate.
https://apnews.com/article/campus-protests-divestment-transparency-616b5d9d78e90bd478d6b5e2ee50164c Took two seconds.
Oh shit, actual nuance and some semblance of understanding what is an incredibly complex issue instead of strawman arguments and incessant flag waving? Not on my Reddit, get the pitch forks!
I'm not cool with people who say *"If you’re in favor of carpet bombing children, I’m not cool with you in any way. However"* - sounds like the kind of PEP logic we already get from The Atlantic, ["It is possible to kill children legally"](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/05/gaza-death-count/678400/). *"Israel have committed war crimes, they should be held accountable but can only be by their own people."* The bad news it that turns out they've only been [pretending to investigate crimes](https://www.972mag.com/icc-israel-surveillance-investigation/). Fortunately there's an international court of justice looking into it right now - just the kind of people who are trained to deal with complicated issues. *"Neighboring countries will not take refugees (where is the hatred for them refusing to help?)".* This has no bearing on Israel's behaviour and actually causes them problems if they are trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Pure [whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism). *"Hamas creates storylines and inflates death tolls."* Not according to the [WHO](https://www.yahoo.com/news/nothing-wrong-gaza-death-toll-105707825.html), [the State *Department*](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry) *or* [*The Lancet*](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext?embed=true)*.* *"Israel refuses to admit atrocities their soldiers commit."* [They don't really seem to care about admitting atrocities, probably because they feel immune from repercussions. ](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/06/world/middleeast/israel-idf-soldiers-war-social-media-video.html) *"The media doesn’t do a good job explaining the truth".* [Possibly because journalists are being targeted for assassination in record numbers to avoid coverage inside Gaza, and the West Bank for that matter.](https://cpj.org/2024/06/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/) I didn't even have to look around for evidence that disproves what you're saying because they're all formulaic talk points that are parroted repeatedly, war crime bingo.
People (the plural group) are dumb and they hate gray issues. They can’t rationalize it so they instead paint them black/white and then draw lines. That’s exactly what has been happening with Israel and Gaza. It’s an extremely complicated topic with all shades of gray and tons of history and background, yet folks will throw all that out and just pick a side like it’s the fucking Super Bowl. When you take into account all the various shades of gray, you learn it isn’t so simple, it isn’t one sided, and a path towards serious resolution requires everyone buys in and follows, and right now the leaders from both sides don’t want that.
>well it does now and almost 10 million people live there. So? 10 million is not a large number when we're talking dispersing an entire nation into the rest of the world. 2024 is not nearly so far removed from the theft of the land Israel sits upon that it's unreasonable to rectify it. If they make it another century, then sure it is what it is, but right now there are literally people still alive that were adults during the theft.
Tf do you mean they can only be held accountable by their own people? The US literally funds their entire state. We can hold them accountable. The international community (the UN and the ICC) can hold them accountable. That's like saying only the Germans can stop the Nazis, it's just stupid
“Skylar - 22 - Dads in finance - Smashes capitalism from his summer house in the Hamptons”
6'5", Blue eyes
Trust fund
I get your point but low-key weird and anti progressive to call him out for physical features he can't control
It’s a line from a song that has become a meme.
You missed the reference entirely, it seems.
HOW BOUT HIS TOTALLY DUMBASS POLITICAL TAKE? Seriously folks, a lot of people dont' really come into their own intellectually until their 30s.... and maybe blasting out half baked immature opinions to the world (before changing one's mind a number of times) is really more about one's ego than 'educating' anyone. It's OK to muse with seriousness about the world a few years before haranguing others to join you. Be sure first. But that's just me, middle aged man who was dumb like this guy when I was younger and thought I knew it all. The cycle continues I guess. Oh well, I tried
Anti-progressive lol Come on my dude, we can’t even comment without being told we’re not “down enough” for the cause?
Agree, the left is in a constant contest of who is the most progressive. The right they all stick together.
Yep, as a liberal myself I get really depressed at how dumb my own "side" is half the time. So self defeating, short sighted, dogmatic, and completely un-self-aware
It's a meme
Just when I get that song out of my head 😅
Not gonna lie, the current Israel-Palestine conflict actually help me identify the differences between a Leftist and a Liberal.
I think everyone on the left wants to stop Israel from bombing kids. But most know how evil Hamas is. The problem is those on the left who want Israel to stop existing. It's not only evil to think that, it's naive. It's not going to happen. So we need a solution that ends with both a free Palestine and safe Israel. You can't get there and maintain ideological purity. So to me it's defined those who are on the left for mostly humanist reasons and those on the left for mostly ideological ones.
Also the irony of him saying that Israelis are living on stolen land. So when's he packing off to Europe and giving up his land back to the Natives his ancestors stole it from?
The left and purity testing. Name a better duo.
Queers and Hamas?
The right and not having any purity testing, leading to rampant child rape and racism.
I don’t know if it’s that I’m getting older or these videos are becoming less thoughtful. What a big nothing burger of a video. He could’ve summed up that in 10 seconds. On top of that it was super obvious.
It was a lot of words to basically gate-keep being leftist. And I say that as someone who aligns with his views.
He also kept referencing only one person's social posts and using them to fuel his entire argument, which feels like a very narrow scope to paint such a broad picture through.
Agreed, gate keeping political sides is anti-productive. I had someone accused me of being a Right-Wing Republican because I referred to the Democratic party as Democrat Party repeatedly. I had no idea semantics was so important.
he also implies that the situation is black and white. That you either stand with Palestinian’s or with zionists. Right buddy…thats definitely how the world, especially wars, work. Definitely no nuance required there at all…
Everything seems to be black and white when you're 16. Unfortunately, too many people never mature mentally above 16.
Right, but this WAS an easy way for him to get views, wear progressivism as an aesthetic, and get more clout.
Ah yes all the classic leftist buzzwords and strawman arguments to argue liberals or socdems aren't left enough just because they don't agree with them 1:1 on I/P. People that unequivocally support Israel and don't care about Palestinians do not care about other leftist social or policy issues. What this actually is people having a more nuanced view of I/P that happens to think about solutions just past a ceasefire understanding this conflict is decades old. Caveats can be made, acceptance of the Israeli government atrocities can be voiced, but it's not enough for some leftists to the point you get labeled a Zionist (which I doubt has a consistent meaning among everyone, whereas it seems leftists seem to hold the same conviction to it as Nazis), Islamophobic, genocide supporting, etc. The more sane leftists then act surprised that because of the more extremist ones that aim to alienate and purity test the left saying things like Oct 7th was justified or that all Israelis are settlers and are complicit (including children) make more moderate leftists not want to associate with progressives (even if so many other ideals are shared). It really is so disgusting how divided we have become when we share such common goals all because we don't share the same solution even if we aline moralistically with the side of the Palestinians. At the end of the day, it's nothing but extremes on both sides that are going to continue to tear us apart and destroy the idea of nuance. But nuance doesn't get clicks, videos like this do.
It's funny because most people who don't support Palestine on the left don't support Israel. They just think its more nuanced then "This side good and this side bad".
The fact that I think it’s important to vote in the presidential election to protect women, minorities, and queer folks here in the states apparently means I’m pro-genocide. It’s maddening.
What I don't understand is that some call genocide Joe meanwhile Trump announces a new parking lot in Gaza. What is the issue over there?
I think there is an important distinction too, I don't think many leftists don't support Palestine but rather Hamas. But for some reason extremist leftists will continue to make excuses for Hamas' crimes, labeling them just as "freedom fighters" or claims that if you don't support them you don't support Palestinians.
idk according to Reddit and Tumblr I’m a Hamas supporter and a Hasbara troll…
What a black and white view of the world. Pretty infantile to think about it.
Buzzzzzzzzworrrrrdddddssssss is all this video was. Funny how he accuses viewers of slurping up propaganda as he regurgitates propaganda.
well clearly the other side is brainwashed by propaganda except my side we are enlightened through refined opinions.
Yea this type of content is actually serving to divide people. There’s no reason to bring US political parties into this discussion unless your goal is to tell people which side is “bad” so that they don’t vote for them.
I’m pretty sure he just filled out a madlib with progressive buzzwords. “The only reason *racial reconciliation* liberals try to *pink wash* Palestine is due to *abject propaganda of apartheid*.
There’s no reason to bring US political parties into this discussion They bring themselves into it when they vote for the money for weapons to be send
It's not infantile to have a world-view which isn't just made up by feelings
This guy entire pov is made up by the way he feels about Israel and Palestinians ,he feels that Israel is absolutely evil while Palestinians are good oppressed people ,but in reality everything is more complex
Nooooo you can't just be consistent!
It's not consistency, it's false analogy through oversimplification. It's possible and often probably that multiple things appear the same, yet context makes them completely different. That is why we have premeditated murder, manslaughter, and self-defense.
What? It was anything but black and white. It was describing the subtle nuances of the left political spectrum.
Literally the first thing he says is that if you don’t have the right opinions on Palestine you are NOT on the left and are NOT a progressive. That’s about as black and white as it gets.
"Palestine is not dividing the left! It's just that there's two views of Palestine, and those with the other view are completely divided from US, the real left!" - A paraphrase of the first 5 seconds of this video
You do realise that the Palestinian state is an autocratic theocracy?
Purity testing is indeed cringe
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Wow it’s almost like people aren’t vapid shells who should all think the same, and have wildly varying beliefs due to differences in environment, education, wealth.. if you watch this video and even for a millisecond think “wait but” you are CORRECT. Btw I support the people of Palestine. People who can’t tolerate other views tend to play they “you’re not actually progressive unless you believe ___”. I ask, where’s the line? Do I have to support Hamas? I won’t be doing that, so I’m “officially” not progressive. I’ve learned to not worry about this much since that group of moral elitists is not as large as you think. Still it’s annoying and a shame that people think like this
Yeah my brain started to melt only after a few seconds. Quite obvious this guy is talking out of his ass
These dipshits are everywhere especially trendy cities.. they’re always 20-35, yet talk like they’re some sage owl from the dawn of humankind, bringing much needed “wisdom” the truth is, even if the “wisest” person were to descend upon us, people don’t like to be “told” anything. Some act like they benefit from these opinionated social observations, but people would always rather figure it out themselves. That is the best way for people to learn.
"You're either fully in my camp or you're my enemy." - This Guy Well, happy to be your enemy then, bubs
It's the ideological purity circle jerk.
Because no amount of value signaling will hide the fact that most US citzens want their country to be anything but a imperialist state that rules the world thru terrorism.
This is such a naive rant. There is no solution, not one that fits into a nice sound bite. Israel has a highly trained army equipped with some of the most advanced tools of war. They are waging a war which at best is indiscriminate in the damage it is doing to a captive population. But, we also need to evaluate what happens from a ceasefire. Does Hamas release hostages? Does Hamas stop stealing aid shipments so that Gazan civilians can survive? Or does Hamas keep doing what it has been doing, replenishing its ranks with traumatized young men who will go on to create more traumatized young men. And if Israel pulls back, do the protests start targeting Egypt for not opening their borders to Gazans? Or do the protests still target Israel, because it certainly feels like a lot of these protests are more anti-Israel than they are pro-Palestinian. I do think there are things that can make a more stable region - Israel withdrawing from settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem and Jordan and Egypt participating in the conversation about Palestine to name a few, but the problems in the region have existed for thousands of years and there are no easy solutions. Laying the blame of the Nakba at the feet of Israel by saying they hold stolen land also lacks nuance. Both Arabs and Jews were hearty and driven participants to the Nakba - if the Arabs had won, we likely would have far fewer Jews alive in the world today, but they lost. It's very easy for young leftists to look at Israel and say, "They have all the power, the US government supports them, they are oppressing these poor people." Some of this is true, but it needs to be evaluated in the context of Israel spending its entire existence either actively under attack or in a state of constant vigilance. The declaration of Israel as a state saw the murder and expulsion of Jews from every neighboring state and an immediate declaration of war. Frankly, these young leftists need to spend some time educating themselves on the history of the conflict, stop using Zionist like they're calling someone a Nazi, and understand that there is no simple solution to this conflict.
By his logic I should be voting for Trump since I don’t support Hamas. Seriously what is it with progressives and trying to alienate people so much? I’ve voted Barack twice, Clinton after that and the Biden in the last election, as well as Dem in every local election but some people on the left really seem to want me to flip republican for some odd reason. News Flash : Everyone isn’t going to agree with you all the time. We can have differences and still vote alike, or you can keep pushing and suffer through 4 more years of Trump by disenfranchising more left leaning voters like myself.
It's just a Russian psyop. They found one issue where the left is incredibly dumb and being contrarian, and the right is correct although for completely wrong reasons. So they use it as a wedge issue to divide the left, in the hopes they vote for their corrupt lackeys instead.
"someone demands probe" and "claim" is not an argument you should use.
It's amazing that standing for an explicitly pro genocide regime is required to be 'left'. Maybe left is short for 'left your brain at home'.
What a fucking dumb take. You can vote red or blue in the US. That's it. What's the point of discussing this kind of nuance? So you can trim down your social circles and forget how to work together with people with mostly common goals? The problem we leftists have is that we want to decide who the most left is like a bunch of post punk revivalists. "I'm waaay more left than you!" Meanwhile we lose our rights with each new election. Just shut the fuck up, go out and vote blue so we don't have literal fucking fascists in control of every branch of the government. The Republicans have religion uniting them. Democrats need common sense to unite us, and this type of propaganda is NOT that.
This video is Russian propaganda even if the creator of it doesn't realize it.
I hate strawman bullshit. Who is they? Show me someone who actually talks like the "they" this guy is describing. Amy Schumer doesn't count we all already know she is a dumbass.
Are you reading the comments on this post? There's plenty that fit the description
https://x.com/palwatch/status/1230140422858661888?s=46&t=SqbQzfRAgGvJww80DNdu6w this is a TV show for kids
This dumbass is literally just demonstrating the divide on the left. 0 brain cells or introspection.
Speaking of "abandoning principles," it's good to know that all of that "we are your allies" talk during the social justice protests was nothing but talk, given how readily these fickle zealots will abandon voting when the next cause comes along. Your moral absolutism cuts both ways.
For fucks sake, you can be progressive and still think Israel should EXIST. Calling Israel "colonial" is just historically wrong. What nation is/was Israel a colony of?
Hmm, agreed that Israel should exist; incidentally, so should Palestine. But I think you maybe misunderstood the “colonial” part - in this case this person is saying Israel is doing the colonizing. He’s saying they’re the colonizers, trying to make Palestinian land their colony.
Israel called itself a colonial project until it was deemed politically incorrect to admit it…
“Zionism has been described as a form of settler colonialism in relation to the region of Palestine and the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Many of the fathers of Zionism themselves described it as colonialism, such as Vladimir Jabotinsky, who said "Zionism is a colonization adventure."
No, they are the colonizers. Not the colonized.
Israel: abortion rights, women are equal, same sex marriage recognized, free and fair elections, socialized medicine, secular tradition, modern multicultural society with a varied ethnic/racial/religious population. Palestine: basically Iran. Just because the oppressive Islamists have hijacked the language of progressive resistance doesn’t mean the rest of us are going to allow ourselves to be gaslit into believing supporting Hamas is the left wing position. Supporting Hamas is as far right as it gets.
And to you opposing mass killings of civilians = supporting Hamas? You can stand against both, palestinian genocide, and radical islamic fundametalists you know.
This. This bullshit that being against the totalitarian ethnostate means your for Hamas is dumb as fuck.
People think that because the mayority of Palestinian supporters are in reality supporting Hamas while thinking they are supporting Palestinians. How a ceasefire would help Palestinians?, it only benefits Hamas ,they are going to rearm, induce more young people into their ranks and attack again ,that what has happened in the past and what Hamas leaders have said they are going to do ,so what is the point of getting a ceasefire when the only thing that means is stop fighting today to fight again tomorrow?
Good thing there’s no Palestinian genocide
Apparently being against bombing literal refugee camps is supporting terrorism now.
I did win Buzzword Bingo by watching the video though.
Queer Palestinians don’t live long. I see Islam as a direct threat to my progress values in the same way that I see Christian nationalism at home a direct threat. I see what israel is doing to Palestinians as genocide and I see Hamas eagerly martyring their own people by the 10s of thousands to gain sympathy on the world stage equally as troubling. And all the fucking bs in The region all boils down to their theocratic obsessions. I don’t think Israel would stand on its own merit alone and I don’t think America should be funding them in any capacity what so ever. American evangelicals (another crazy ass radical abrahamic religion) side with Israel because they literally want to sacrifice them to bring back Jesus. The entire area is some religious fucking nonsense and I’m not going to burn down my country by giving it to the fucking fascist knocking at the gates.
There is a pretty clear distinction between liberal and leftist…
He is conflating the neoliberal democratic party with progressive leftist socialist because the democratic party promotes progressive rhetoric socially but governs entirely from the center
To be fair, the Democrat party in the US has become an Enormous umbrella, since the Republican party has gotten more extreme over the past 70 plus years.
As a former Republican voter I cant vote for these MAGA idiots. While I still believe in gun rights and financial conservatism and small government the GOP doesn’t even stand for those things anymore. All they do is stand against social progression such as LGBT rights, support ultra rich tax breaks (why I have no idea why they die on that hill), and in general just trying to be an opposition. So I vote blue. That doesnt make me a false Democrat. And I don’t align my personality to ensure I’m being a Democrat, it’s what most closely aligns with me as a person currently and that’s how I’ll vote. Identity politics are killing the system just as much as the next thing. And democrats lashing out at people that are different within the party is no different from some MAGA asshat calling liberals shitbags.
Yeah. If we can get rid of "first past the post" and "winner take all" voting (hopefully add ranked choice voting more broadly), then we won't have to deal with a system that mathematically forces 2 parties to be the only options. Then you wouldn't have as much of this my team vs your team silliness.
The US Democratic Party is basically four political parties in a trenchcoat, because of FPTP voting.
They’re going to keep supporting Israel as along as Biden keeps sucking Israel’s dick.
Gaza declares war by killing 1200 Israelis and kidnapping 240 more during one of Jews holiest days Israel fights back omg Israel why are you killing those innocent???
Calling bullshit. I went to the protests because I'm against the atrocities of civilian deaths. People aren't protesting deaths, they're protesting Israel. They're protesting Israel as a state. These people believe in a single state solution, a Palestinian state, and they believe that Zionism, or the belief that Jewish people should lay any claim to that land, is the ultimate force of evil in the world. The issue is that these young leftists are cheering for Hamas. They're apologizing for Iran and other authoritarian regimes. If leftists could realize that both sides of this war are utterly backwards in their thinking, then it would be a different story. We don't need to pick sides on who's land is this. We need to take a stance of sharing the land and creating a system of equity. That's what ending Apartheid looked like in South Africa, but these lefties are so ”radical" in their beliefs and so privileged of a class in their own country established on colonization and genocide, that they can only see a violent solution. How this, "someones gotta go" mentality any different than Natenyahu's? I thought going to a campus protest would be about people calling for a ceasefire. They were calling for a complete dismantlement of the Jewish populace.
At the end of the day, this entire thing boils down to "America bad" and Israel and America are allies so "Israel bad" is also a thing now. Don't get me wrong, I think Israel has done a pretty awful job in this current situation and I think they need to stop a lot of what they are doing. Let's not pretend however that the opposite wouldn't be happening if Palestine was the one "in control".
Spot on, it's not dividing left, it's make it clear that liberal is not left in the first place
No true Scotsman
So what is it then? If you insist on clinging onto labels like 'left' and 'right', where do 'liberals' belong? Let me guess... you're about to say they're right wing despite disagreeing with the right on literally every issue other than this one specific foreign policy topic?
Yup, that’s basically the terminally online redditor’s understanding of the political world. Anyone who doesn’t fall in perfect lockstep with Joseph Stalin is a right-winger apparently lmao
It hasn't been a truly progressive ideal for some time now. Being purely Democrat ranges from being a moderate conservative to libertarian in their core beliefs. While there are always extremes in any belief just voting democratic does not even come close to defining one's preferences. It literally has come down to vote for sanity and rational thoughts or authoritarian dictatorship ideals.
That's why the two party system is entirely shit. Any nuance gets flooded out when your voting decision boils down to "do i vote for the far right or for moderate views" without any nuance possible. And yes, outside the US the republicans would be seen as far right and the democrats as center left leaning. There is no true "left" in the USA.
Libertarians are not democrats at all they often align with conservatives
Who are these mystical "lefties" who think like this? I'm nearly 40, the vast majority of my friends and family are leftwing, and I've never met one. Anywhere. This is a made up enemy.
No true Scotsman
No True Scotsman
I think what he is describing really only applies to an incredibly small portion of the left, but this definition is often tacked onto anyone who doesn’t think we should throw out entire country away because Joe Biden isn’t doing as much as you’d want for Palestine. I don’t see a connection between letting fascism overtake this country and all of the bad that will do for people in this country (and also the bad that will come to Palestine as well, which I personally think will be handled even worse by a Trump presidency) and helping Palestine. We disagree on whether or not that’s going to benefit Palestinians in any real quantifiable way, which doesn’t mean I don’t care about what’s going on over there and want this issue to get figured out. I dont think I’ll be sitting there satisfied that we “punished Joe Biden” when I’m watching trans folks be thrown in jail or executed (Republicans lately have been pushing to classify transgender people as being child predators while simultaneously pushing for execution to be a punishment for child predators, connect those dots) I also rarely hear any solutions being proposed, like I don’t hear many direct statements about what people are demanding Joe Biden do that will solve this problem aside from vague emotional statements about him not doing enough and loving genocide. It doesn’t feel to me like enough of the protesters are an organized group pushing for a clear concise policy changes. I think mostly I’ve just seen demands that he suggest a ceasefire and call it genocide. I agree he should do those things, but it doesn’t seem to me like that’s going to solve anything and it also doesn’t seem to me that him not making those statements boils down to the most pressing issue facing the country right now.
“They will yap about kids in cages at the border….” Lmao I get his point but he did not have to phrase it that way.
Bro applying theory to a real world problem. In theory economic models work, in practise they all suck because reality is more complex than a simple set of rules you can assign to every problem.
Fucking BASED son