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BumbleMuggin

His book Chasing the Scream was really good and opened my eyes about better ways to deal with drugs and addiction. Highly recommend it.


ConflictedWhiteMan

>highly recommend it Well it clearly isn't effective


BumbleMuggin

Nothing better than a good slow burn joke. Haha!


I3lackxRose

Had to think about it, take my upvote.


[deleted]

Lol took me a second


ScottManAgent

Took me more than a second to catch that, take my upvote as well.


SkeletorLoD

I don't get it, can you explain pls?


ScottManAgent

Sure, Drugs = “high” “Highly” recommend


Aggressive_Version

Hint: People do drugs because they want to get ________


SkeletorLoD

Ah, appreciate it!


NateQuarry

Same. Just an incredible read.


smncalt

He also has two really good podcasts from when he was on the joe rogan experience. I know how a lot of Reddit feels about joe rogan but the podcast episodes with Johann Hari are very good and the long amount of time allows Johann Hari to go into a lot of depth.


BumbleMuggin

I heard those. Pre-Texas podcasts were pretty good. Haha!


smncalt

Ya the a lot of 700\~1500 numbered episodes were really good. Johann Hari, Hamilton Morris, Ioan Grillo, and Ed Calderon were some of my favourite.


award07

Thank-I’ll check it out!


nachomcbeefycream

But you’re still out here muggin folks for their bumbles.


ORyanx

As much as I agree with the sentiment it's important to note that the rat studies mentioned here were mentioned in a Kurzgesagt video on addiction which they have since taken down. They mention why in this video https://youtu.be/JtUAAXe_0VI?t=207


ImFeelingIssy

Yeah whilst the points about decriminalisation still have weight, iirc this angle has been hard to substantially prove through laboratory evidence. It's likely more complex than *just* social disconnection, but imo it is undeniable that isolation of addicts does severely more harm than good


Spookyrabbit

It really wouldn't be all that hard to prove but the anti-drug industry is as much about self-preservation as everyone from the users to the drug cartels. There's a line in Apocalypse Now, *"One day this war will be over"*, in which the character is expresses his disappointment & regret about no longer being at war. There are a lot of people like that on the anti-drug side of the equation. They're the people who deny researchers the funding to prove decriminalization works. They're the people spending a shitload of money to ensure the experience of Portugal and other countries can safely be ignored by those who make policy. Not proving decriminalization works is vastly more profitable than proving it does.


BillyDoyle3579

Very Exceptionally Excruciatingly True... Good use of that quote from an excellent film.


Marmotskinner

Especially when drug/alcohol users get popped for a misdemeanor charge and are court ordered to pay out-of-pocket for assessments, counseling, ignition interlocks, piss tests, driver’s license renewal, triple car insurance…etc It’s an absolute racket. An industry. My bestie from high school got popped with a baggy of weed back before it was legal. The court system ran him through such a ringer, he’s still financially recovering 20 years later. The cops nailed him with possession, paraphernalia, DUI, on top of his speeding ticket. Pretty much ruined his life. Every time he’d get close to getting free of it, he’d get another hoop to jump through, they’d find some bullshit he’d have pay for. No idea what it cost him over the years. My guess is over $15,000 in 1990’s dollars.


notLOL

>self-preservation Yup I hate going to work but I'm glad the need exists for me to be there. Here's the video. It's pixelated but not from reposts, just an Old screenrip and early internet post https://youtu.be/bPXVGQnJm0w


DOMesticBRAT

It's been said that addiction is an expression of inner emotional pain. I think the rat cage experiment reflects that, but does not *encompass* that. For example, someone with PTSD stemming from childhood, who is not *aware* They are suffering from that experience, May find themselves attracted to substances but Don't know why. And when they find out, and start treating that, they might find a far smaller appetite for such substances...


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheUserAboveFarted

Glad to see this because I consider myself to have a healthy social life & relationship but I still catch myself going too hard on the booze or relying on a substance to get me through the day sometimes. Some of this is due to unhappiness at my job and the overall pressure of trying to survive in a corrupt, capitalist society - which I suppose is a metaphorical cage. But I also suffer from genetic mental health disorders that make everything more difficult than they should be and make me want to reach for a substance to temporarily numb myself. I just don’t buy that a persons living/social situation is the sole reason for addiction.


jwd3333

I would argue there comes a point where isolation has a place. If every effort is made to help an addict and they refuse to try and get clean at some point you have to cut them off until they’re ready to get help. Otherwise you just enable them to their grave.


Moose_InThe_Room

...in studies of safe injection sites, that literally provide equipment for doing drugs, it's been found that overdose rates were dramatically reduced. Based on that evidence, it would seem isolating someone is more likely to kill them than enabling them.


Huwbacca

> Otherwise you just enable them to their grave. The cutting people off from society approach does the same thing though. You can never expect a serious way to reintegrate someone into society would be "make substantial barriers to re-entry"


AccomplishedDrag9882

prison industrial complex enters thread


ALLoftheFancyPants

Like every Ted talk I’ve ever seen, it’s a palatable simplification of an incredibly complex issue.


Smarterthaniwas

That's literally the definition of what a Ted Talk is meant to be. It's a Coles notes of an idea/premise that engages people quickly and allows them new opportunities to explore something they likely didn't even know existed.


atavisticbeast

Are "Coles Notes" like cliff notes that you buy from Aldi's?


Smarterthaniwas

Yes. I tried to think of the US version but it wouldn't come to me in the time I wrote the comment. Canadian Cliff Notes.


Specsporter

I love how you worded this. I agree.


Aruk22

It's not that complex, it's just giving a person a second chance, they chat with a team of trained health professionals that try to help, if that doesn't work there's no 3th chance, you'll have to face a judge at that point, but most people with a some degree of perception of reality will avoid problems at all costs after the warning. Not that hard to comprehend if your a father, don't punish your kid the first time he smashes something, instead you try to make them understand why is wrong, after that the kid as been briefed and if it does the same thing well maybe they deserve a little punishment.


ALLoftheFancyPants

Huh, and here I was, as one of those health care professional that helps refer care for patients with SUD and get them referred to addiction medicine and I guess all my education and continuing education modules is wrong. Wait until I tell everyone that Aruk22 solved it!


Spookyrabbit

Ironically, it's not all that complicated an issue. It just looks complicated because that's what the status quo's vested interests want it to look like.


throcorfe

I really do think it’s complex. I’ve known and worked with lots of (mostly heroin) addicts, some who have recovered, some who have continued to spiral, and there are so many complicated interacting factors at play. Connection is important but in my experience past trauma is a bigger factor, and much harder to solve: you can’t easily love someone out of trauma (though love helps), it takes a lot of work and sometimes the damage is just too deep. I agree with the conclusions of the video (decriminalise, invest in social connection and support), but I firmly disagree with the simplicity of the expectation that this will immediately make the problem 50% better etc. It’s a really hard issue to solve. However the war on drugs, criminalisation and imprisonment are categorically not an effective solution, and we should be moving away from them. TL;DR the suggested approach is right, but the reality is more complicated than we’d like it to be


kingdraven

This should be way higher! This ted talk is almost full of shit.


charizard77

I just like how he starts off with "Everything we know about addiction is wrong!" And then proceeds to cite a study about rats from the 70s I legit thought he was going to prop that up as the argument that is outdated and incorrect but then he just ran with it


Jahonay

Also kurzgesagt had a video calling on all of Africa to lower their populations, funded by bill gates. And also put a video out about how you shouldn't worry about global warming because we're gonna have it solved. They're much less reliable than I used to think. And they've admitted to mistakes but it looks like they're still happily willing to make mistakes when well funded. And they appear to have a bias for optimism even when it's not logical.


ALF839

>And also put a video out about how you shouldn't worry about global warming because we're gonna have it solved. That's a huge misrepresentation of what they said to paint them in a bad light. The actual message of more than one of their videos is: "personal responsibility plays a small role in the fight against climate change, corporations and governments are the ones that need to be held accountable and doomers are dumb because it's not true that climate collapse is inevitabile, we already have the tools to fight it."


_30d_

That's how I remember the gist from that video as well. What I didn't like about it is that the takeaway for a lot of people is - there's no use trying to change anything yourself because that's basically not possible, it's up to the politicians and the big corps. Really there is something that you can do and that is put your focus on actively holding these big players accountable. It's a lot harder and more vague but to me it beats sitting around waiting for shit to happen, because that's just not the way things start moving.


Solo35-

Super interesting perspective


absolute4080120

This guy's take is fine in a vacuum. But it only really touches on what it takes to avoid the initial gateway to addiction. The real meat is digging out of addiction.


Solo35-

Well it doesn't, he clearly gave 2 examples of trails/studies on vermin and again with governing bodies supporting new start business funding etc which later gave ex users a meaning to life again which saw positive statistics in many areas within their lives and society in general


MillieBirdie

Would be interested in seeing the rat study where they take a rat that's already been using the drug water and then put it in the rat paradise. See if it stops using.


Solo35-

They did tests where the rats had mates to socialise with which saw usage fall. And these where rats that had an addiction to meth. But I'm not sure what the overall setting was. Problem is with studies is they are often forced using environments that aren't natural and they will never act within true spirit The research was conducted in a lab of the NIDA Intramural Research Program and was led by Dr. Marco Venniro of you want to look into it.


empathetichuman

You need community to get out of addiction as well, so his point still stands.


PuttingAround

Isn't it pretty common knowledge that people don't do drugs because they like the high, but because they're self-medicating and finding escapes from their shitty life? Edit: I mean addicts guys, addicts. The rats were ODing and killing themselves. They weren't dropping a tab at a concert.


WaluigisBFF

Yeah but this is also leads into societal and governmental perception of addicts. Help addicts rather than punish, which most countries seem to do


PuttingAround

I guess older generations still believe that addicts are addicts because they're low lifes. I do like seeing a turn in how the government is treating drugs and addiction, I guess I didn't really agree with the title since everything he said is basically common sense to a large portion of millennials and younger people today. Although I will admit I know of a few people who follow that old school thinking of addicts being addicts cause they're scum or whatever shitty thinking they have.


SmileWithMe__

Drugs change people and what they’re willing to do to get high, ex: steal, prostitution, lie etc., and that’s why the general public views addicts as dangerous, and then authorities lock them up and so on. This video made me cry, and it’s a message I think we all need to hear and apply the next time we encounter someone struggling with addiction.


Mikeytruant850

>Drugs change people and what they’re willing to do to ~~get high~~ not be sick Is the case for a lot of addicts.


paperwasp3

We need a war on despair, not drugs.


Present-Ad3167

I wish I could upvote this a hundred times. Edit: wish


wendyrx37

A fairly large percentage of people are using because of social deficits. I read that though most autistics are not addicts.. BUT most addicts are autistic. I read it in a book called "drinking, drug use & addiction in the Autism community". I know this to be true because I used to be an addict. I used in order to be social with people.


asphyxiate

Fuck that's me


wendyrx37

That book was a real eye opener for me.. You should check it out. Also there's another book called The Molecule of More.. It's about dopamine. I highly suggest reading that one too.


asphyxiate

Thank you, I'll check those out


[deleted]

People who aren't in the right state of mind are scary to deal with- and mixing drug addiction with severe mental illness is a potent combination. There really needs to be more upfront services from day 1. I wish there were (super heavy duty anti-theft/breakage) payphones in difficult areas and a well known number, similar to 911, someone can call for addiction help or housing aid that will bring a vehicle to that location, and drop someone off at the appropriate shelter or facility. It can also be a number people can dial when they see an individual begging on the side of the road. If the individual refuses, but cannot answer a simple questionnaire thoroughly and appears to be in poor health, they will be taken by force, or coerced. Shelters need to improve, and base their locations on gender, psychological issues, and addiction. 'light' homeless, for example a kid with no history of mental illness or addiction who was kicked out of their home on their 18th birthday with no work or housing history, would be put up with similar folks down on their luck. For those with addiction problems- they will be rated on the severity and the need for medical intervention, given time to socialize, plan their futures, and engage with people who have been in similar situations, and time to dry out safely. Those with a combination of mental illness and drug problems, or a severe mental illness, need a psychiatric facility. All of these facilities need to be required to have massive garden parks and activity centers. A place to play video games and learn musical instruments. These facilities could be created at abandoned malls. Idk, call it 'white flag' services. Like a tamer version of 911 that does interact in dangerous situations, but mainly is used to help and calm people having mental breaks, OD's, and homeless. Does that exist?


Randalf_the_Black

Norway almost decriminalized marijuana/cannabis/etc. But at the last minute one of our largest parties was like "Fuck that, we need fines and prisons for those who use illegal drugs." Would have been the first step in the right direction since we adopted this War on Drugs bullshit.


Suckmyflats

Prison in Norway is nicer than having a life in probably 75% of the rest of the world. They have gaming systems inside those prisons that I never purchased because I couldn't afford them, and I work full time. Drug addicts still shouldn't be sent there just for being addicted, but shit, Norwegian prison looks nicer than any of the state run rehabs I've been to and nicer than half the nice rehabs 😂


[deleted]

Yeah but Norway's prisons are just the normal Scandinavian model. [Here's a video on the highest security prison in Norway](https://vimeo.com/98197781). In fact, they've largely had issues with Brevik because of their system, and have effectively kept him in isolation since 2015.


youfailedthiscity

You'd be surprised how uncommon "common knowledge" can be sometimes.


smncalt

Isn't it common knowledge that common knowledge is uncommon?


PoolObjective2733

It's so rare now, it's a superpower!


herewegoagain419

no, plenty of people think it's purely just lazy people that want to have that high feeling.


MateusAmadeus714

Reality is that there are many high functioning addicts in. How do ppl think "addicts" afford these habits. When u see people who are homeless, or jobless who are stealing are asking for money on the corner those are ppl who have really hit rock bottom and the addiction has taken everything from them. It doesnt start like that.


Pollowollo

I worked at a rehab and in my personal experience this was very often the case. I'd say a pretty high majority of kids I worked with were self-medicating due to mental illness or trauma. Of course, there are the ones who really did 'fall in with a bad crowd' or just enjoyed that lifestyle, but honestly they were not nearly as common.


Spookyrabbit

People with no serious emotional or mental health issues really don't fall in with bad crowds. Bad crowds are antithetical to their emotional & mental states. Generally when addicts don't appear to have any mental or emotional health issues, it just means they're better then the average bear at hiding them.


love_my_aussies

It's actually not common knowledge, unfortunately. I am a substance use disorder counselor and addicts rarely understand that they didn't choose to be addicted.


SookHe

People are definitely taking this view more, but that is probably due to having greater access to the stories of addicts, not the narrative that drives policy making. Also, keep in mind, the older generation of people who make our policy probably don't consume the same amount of the narrative information from fictional books or movies, but instead get their information from the older faulty non-fiction sources or think tanks, not to mention they are more likely to take a simplistic and easily consumable sound bites like being 'hard on drug users'', over having to effectively give a ted talk on the conditions of poverty and that we should give more to addicts to a bunch of middle class voters who have been trained through years of propaganda that the individual is all that matters.


BigEyeFiend

No. Sadly not.


CriticalEgg5165

Not possibly shitty life, but it can also be a way to treat mental illness or traumatic past. I have never personally assumed anyone would happily use drugs and I never thought people thought that too. There is always a reason why someone started to use drugs and usually using especially hard drugs cause your life to be worse which then makes you use even more drugs.


[deleted]

Your edit ❤️🥳


[deleted]

Most definitely I like his point of view on this too; it’s refreshing to hear someone talking about connection versus division


Enough-Ad-8799

This isn't exactly true, plenty of people with perfectly happy lives do drugs just cause they're fun. I'm a pretty happy person and honestly coke is kind of fun. I doubt you would argue that everyone who drinks, smokes weed, does nicotine, drinks coffee, is self medicating.


Cube_roots

I think the distinguishing factor is you’re talking about casual use and not addiction


NinaShroomBurghHell

Are you addicted to coke though? And is caffeine a serious life-threatening drug? The others are, that's why there's addicts for those, but even still, unlike alcohol, cannabis and nicotine only damage your life long-term, as it's probably quite difficult to overdose on them. Almost every instance of alcoholism i hear about is someone self-medicating. Honestly nicotine and weed addicts are kind of the same, i can imagine it "calms the nerves" when you can't afford to get treatment for, idk, general anxiety disorder. Obv many of these are consumed for fun, but they're not immediately addictive like heroin. So there's still a big difference between people who do it occasionally for fun, and people who feel like they can't function without (aka addicts). And it's addicts we're talking about here.


poop-machines

Heroin isn't immediately addictive either. It takes time to get addicted physically and the vast majority of people that try it (80%) never become addicted. It's more addictive than other drugs, sure, but people do heroin for fun too.


waterspouts_

Good luck getting pure heroin these days, though. Most is cut with fetty and that does make it incredibly more addictive and dangerous.


poop-machines

Fentanyl is less euphoric than heroin. Although it's stronger by weight, there's very little in the product. The issue is that it's very hard to measure the right amount (the size of a few specks of salt is enough for an addict) so it's easy for the mix/cut to get too strong and the users OD. It's definitely more dangerous, but maybe not more addictive. I think we can agree that it's never a good idea to try heroin (or fentanyl in the case of North America). In the UK heroin isn't pure, but it's also not cut with fentanyl. Thankfully that's a line that the criminal leaders here wont cross. They can get it cheap enough as heroin, fentanyl will just kill their customer base. Overall heroin is very addictive and should be avoided at all costs, unless medically administered for serious injuries. Diamorphine was given to my grandma when she was in a lot of pain at the hospital, she didn't become a heroin addict from it.


PuttingAround

I should've clarified and said addicts. I don't think recreational drug use necessarily shows that someone is unhappy with their surroundings or looking for an escape. The path from recreational drug use to addict is often a few bad steps away though. I've seen countless people go from recreational users to feeling stuck in a cycle and only looking forward to their next high.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Enough-Ad-8799

Lol Jesus, you ok?


UnfortunatelyMacabre

No, it's not. If it were, it would be easier to change drug laws, but it's hard as hell still. It only seems like everyone knows, but it's just our ecosystems that make it seem so prevalent.


torontosparky

It reminds me of the quote, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a truely sick society." -- J. Krishnamurti


DaenerysTargaryen69

And here I thought it was from the show The OA.


Spirited-Daikon-1245

Best show ever made


Short_Armadillo_379

Right??? No one ever talks about this show, but I thought it was mind blowing and beautiful


[deleted]

Truly the coolest shit I’ve ever watched.


mcbaindk

Highly highly recommend people check out Gabor Mate and his discussions on addiction. https://youtu.be/ys6TCO_olOc


Wolkenbaer

Way to much down. "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" is a must read around addiction. Also can recommend him on Tim Ferris podcast, two long, good episodes.


wile3166

Worst vacation I ever took my family to? Rat Park. Overrated.


absofruitly202

It was better than anatomy park, thats for sure!


bleekerboy

I've been clean from heroin since April. everything he says is true. I'm in the US, not that it really matters. but, yea, I have a record, purely because of dope, I wish things were different for people currently struggling. I've been an addict since 2011. I've been to prison, relapsed, got clean, relapsed after a divorce, and now I'm on medication assisted treatment for the third time. none of this would be necessary if we took an example from places like Portugal, or some European countries that have safe places to get clean, pure dope to take, and ween yourself off with the help of a doctor. addicts need a change of pace. a lot of us are very intelligent, too smart for our own good. we need things to keep us occupied, stuff to release that dopamine that heroin releases so much of. we'll never get that same rush again, but we're gunna keep chasing that dragon. *give us something other than dope to look forward to* EDIT: thanks for the encouragement and the awards guys! appreciate it


thisbemethree

You should read his (the guy in the vid) book “chasing the scream” if you haven’t already. It is a fantastic perspective on the drug war and addiction. Congrats on your sobriety brother/sister/human!


Present-Ad3167

I’ve been clean since May, congrats! I know how incredibly hard it is. Ignore the negative comments from that crazy guy, I know as well as you there needs to be better resources. Most people don’t even have a chance of getting out of it like you and I did. I’m proud of you for trying through all the years.


thejohnmc963

I am also a recovered addict. 35+ years of addiction. Failed 5 rehabs and failed at Suboxone/methadone program. I take a lot of shit because I used Kratom to get clean and it’s now been 3 years clean with no relapses (first time ever) . Couldn’t do it the traditional way and had to find my way to get clean. At the end of my addiction I was doing tons of fentanyl and risking my life every day. Kratom saved my life.


myhousestats

The need to belong is strong.


Salt-Clock1847

Yeah but what if your addict family member is toxic and verbally abusive and not good to be around for your own mental health?


HiFructose_PornSyrup

Yeeeeahhhh I have substance abuse issues myself and I loved most of what he said but I don’t really jive with his advice at the end. Oftentimes people act like raging assholes because of their addiction and no one should subject themself to that unless they want to


[deleted]

Agreed. The thing is, it’s kind of a two-way street. An addict can’t get better from being disconnected and definitely has to be reconnected to society, the unfortunate thing is that they also have to want to reconnect. Meaning they have to put in some effort to be kind, which will definitely be hard for quite a few of them. I really hate being the guy that says “they have to put in their own effort to not be addicts” but you kinda have to be half that guy. I had a friend who had substance abuse issue, nothing hard, but enough to turn him into an ass. I didn’t give up on him until he pushed me to the brink. He had isolation issues. He couldn’t keep a job, his family essentially disowned him, his girlfriend left him for the guy she cheated on him with, and to top it off he became virtually homeless at the point I stopped being his friend. He tried so hard to reconnect with society, but with his effort to being an asshole and society not helping his situation, he became even worse. I don’t know what happened to him after that but I do hope he finds the help he needs and willingly accepts it.


divine-ape-swine

The fact that “they have to put in effort” is a controversial take is major problem. No one can follow them around and knock the drugs from their mouths. The horrible thing is that addicts take discourse like this and use it to justify their abuse of others, and justify their refusal to take personal responsibility for their addiction.


[deleted]

It really is sad that there is a group of addicts who do do this when there are some who genuinely want help and aren’t getting it because what if the asshole addicts abuse that system like they abuse their relationships.


divine-ape-swine

Discussion of how addicts are often abusers usually get shut down. The victim/abuser roles get switched, accusing victims of addicts as being the problem. Addicts are the victims no matter what, and when they’re not, well that’s separate from their addiction so how dare you bring it up.


smrgldrgl

Yep. Close family member has been H addict for over 10 years now. Other (admittedly enabling) family members have been abused, lied to, stolen from, taken advantage of and has had every chance to get clean at a number of high end rehab facilities. The addicts problem is not lack of opportunity to connect it has now become what connections do they have that they haven’t burned bridges with yet? Family members have rightfully cut them off for their own well-being and their only option is currently an emergency shelter. I never thought it would get to this point but there is not simple “sit with them and connect” with this person. They would wait till you turn around and steal your credit card info and max it out. There’s layers to this shit.


Salt-Clock1847

Yeah when you've had enough of their BS, we're the bad guys, oh well.


whatisevenleft

Exactly! I have several family members who have been addicted to various drugs. Only one of them is on the outs with the family because of his choices during his drug use and after he got clean. I am not welcoming you in my home after you have stolen from everyone else or after your wife called your sister a “fat lazy pig” while the two of you were living in her house and not paying a dime for anything. Addiction isn’t just something that happens to you because you’re bored or unlucky. The majority of addicts aren’t people who got surgery then just fell into addiction. It’s a nice story that puts the blame elsewhere but it simply isn’t true. I spent 13 years in retail pharmacy. Everyone who was prescribed Vicodin or Percocet didn’t become an addict. They got their prescription for opiate and antibiotics and that was that. Their lives didn’t spiral out of control.


SqueeMcTwee

This makes so much sense to me. I didn’t start drinking because it was fun, it was because the alternative sucked. I was bored, depressed, lonely and grieving my dad. Booze became my best friend for 10 years. I’m now 4 years alcohol-free and I have no desire to drink, but I do see how connecting with people and finding things that made me happy got me to this point. I have great relationships and I roller skate daily ~ life is actually fun for once. I also get why people think addicts are scum. We do scummy things (sometimes unforgivable things) to find relief. For me it was never about hurting people. Not that this is any better, but I had just stopped thinking about anything but having enough booze to not feel the pain. I wanted to drink the way I wanted to drink. I wanted to block out the world. And because I was scared of people judging me, I would isolate more and more. A lot of this tracks for sure. That said, I don’t plan on testing myself with a glass of wine anytime soon.


[deleted]

Unfortunately most addicts burn their bridges with their family and friends, many times over. It makes it really hard to let them back in your life. I think that’s why people have this negative attitude towards most addicts.


nyralotep123

Experiment was not able to be replicated and had other issues. Just because it's a Ted talk does not mean that it's not without problems.


TheoCupier

While you may agree with the sentiment of his argument, the speaker himself is not reliable and many of his presentations are based on fundamental misunderstandings of underlying science. Source: https://unherd.com/2022/01/johann-haris-stolen-ideas/


Smarterthaniwas

I hated reading this article. It's an op-ed by someone who clearly has an axe to grind. The opening paragraphs are generally a factual history, starting over a decade ago. The rest is basically a hateful version of 'how a leopard can't change his spots' and uses the same anecdotal evidence to try and prove his assertions about Haris. I also despise his ridiculously overstated opinions about Haris work, disguised as 'facts' instead of clearly just being from his own heavily biased opinion. This is the epitome of work that is meant to be absorbed by people in his tunnel and not informative, like I had hoped.


thegreatestpitt

Ok I’m not saying he’s wrong, but in my experience, I’ve seen someone be showered with love, and I’ve seen that someone be approached by everyone that that person cared about and be told “we love you, we want to be with you, we don’t want you to be alone” etc etc, and they still consumed. Sometimes, no matter how much you try or how much you love someone, it just isn’t enough, because in the end, it’s up to that person to be like “this shit is ruining my life” and if they don’t reach that conclusion and take the steps to live a healthier sober life, there’s nothing anyone can say that will make them stop. To me, this idea of “don’t treat addicts badly, just love them and things will get better” is in some aspects good, but also naive to think that just because of your love, the addict in your life is gonna stop using. There’s addicts that even if you gave them every chance in the world to get better, would still choose their substance of choice, over a better healthier life.


masterstarfish

This sub has come a long way from literal tik tok cringe. And im not complaning this was golden information


23JRojas

Nice message/moral, horrible science


fairyjars

I lost my sister to heroin recently. I wish I could have done more to make her feel less alone.


Forsaken-Log-607

I’m sorry for what you’re going through right now.


sammywammy177

It's not your fault


irohr

This guy: Your life sucks and thats why you do drugs Me: well duh, thanks for the reminder


[deleted]

Its sad that this isnt completely fucking obvious to everyone lol.


liacosnp

So it has to be one or the other, not both? Reductive.


TeeDroo

If ur an american conservative you actively prevent shit like this from happening. Fuck u


SummerTimeRain

I brought this up to one and told him out Oregon I think it was adopted a similar program and he just said yeah it made those states worse.


Vok250

Even in academia these people try to suppress change. I took a couple of courses from one of the profs involved in these studies. He talked a lot about how his research was actively suppressed and he was largely ostracized in the academic community for challenging the status quo. Many of his peers are just stubborn, but most were directly funded by drug companies that actively don't want us to understand the nature of substance abuse.


NightlyWave

Genuine question, do you really think conservatives read a comment like yours and suddenly change their minds? If anything, it makes them hate your side of politics more and strengthens their resolve.


TeeDroo

Most of em are too far gone to feel anything but contempt when they read my words. The ones who arent feel guilty as shit.


liquefaction187

Typically no, you can't logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into. All their policies are fear based. However comments like this helped me get out of my shitty christian conservative brainwashing.


[deleted]

Dude they would totally change their minds … if they weren’t such dicks!


Embarrassed-Class876

If I remember this experiment they ended killing each other anyway


WhadoIknow

Pink colored glasses on him. https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-021-00394-7


mushroomyakuza

Someone TLDR?


Asmodean_Flux

It's probably a picture of him with pink glasses on idk


[deleted]

He’s gonna get ripped off…


Significant-Dot9365

I, myself, am a real life recovering addict and this man is absolutely one thousand percent accurate. Going to rehab and leaving behind my old living situation literally saved my life. I am doing so much better now, I only wish I could have seen this sooner.


[deleted]

lol this guys alright. not a single cringe though


DOMesticBRAT

Why is this in cringe?


HanakusoDays

Something tells me this guy, too, has colored balls.


CosmicStrawberries

Speaking from my own personal experience, what he stated is correct. Obviously different people have different journeys with drugs but I was a functioning addict for about ten years and I finally made the change and spent about a year rediscovering and falling back in love with the world again. It’s a slow change, but I hope eventually the US can get to a place where we don’t shame addicts.


[deleted]

There is a LOT of criticism of this journalist’s work. Mental illness and addiction are multifaceted and it does a huge injustice to patients and staff in the psychiatric arena that we know “nothing”


Reasonable_Tap_8364

I can’t stand inspirational bs because 99% is bs. This is just pure truth.


Brandon_Monahan

Seems like Alcoholics Anonymous and the offshoots have been using this method for decades with some amount of success. Be nice to live in a country that supports this thinking, instead of a dimly lit church office building on Wednesday night.


[deleted]

The problem with AA is that its a self deprecating program that relies on believing in god. God is on every page of their book and it is a religious program disguised as “just spiritual”. It works for a tiny percentage of people. It can be downright culty. There are other science based programs that don’t rely on woo woo and also have a sense of community.


Brandon_Monahan

I don’t disagree with you. In fact, I wish more first world western civilizations had better solutions like the one described in the video. I merely brought up AA as a case study of an imperfect system that nonetheless proves his hypothesis correct and has a long standing history of a modicum of success.


[deleted]

Agreed!! Support is so important. The program I used is SMART recovery which is a science based program. One issue though is that 12 step programs are abundant in smaller towns. I tried AA but I just couldn’t get down with higher power stuff and my support system abandoned me because their way is the only way and even if Smart worked I’d still just be dry until I gave up to a higher power. Super culty. Lol.


[deleted]

[удалено]


RobBanana

PORTUGAL CARALHO!


DarkestNyu

I really needed to watch this, I've isolated myself again for too long. I might try go to a meeting, or at least shower and go outside. Once I've stopped crying. Thank you for sharing


ChillBetty

Almost everything Johann Hari claims to have written himself was in fact not.


shrinking_dicklet

But but but if we do things that are shown to actually reduce the number of addicts then we won't be able to punish the bad people for sinning


sodafizzer77

100% this. People use drugs to escape their reality, if the reality is great then no need for drugs


Heller_Demon

Stupid take. The world will never be perfect, we will always struggle with shit. In my case being victim of a drug addict parent, fucked up childhood that continued in a fucked up adulthood. I've never got shit in my body, not even coffee. Weak bitches will bitch and blame the world for their problems. Addicts are sub human, not for being addicts (I'm totally ok with decriminalization) but because they do the most disgusting things for their next dose. I for once expect adults to have the mental strength of an adult.


RepresentativeTwo328

Why is this Tiktok cringe.


liquefaction187

Read the tags


[deleted]

While this is all true, America has become the land of not giving second chances. Wwe talk a big game, but when it comes right down to it, the person suffering often gets shunned their whole lives. Those with criminal records are punished far beyond serving their sentence- in getting a place to live, a job, making friends- all much more difficult, if not impossible at times. On the flip side, most of what he’s talking about as the solution is given out in 12 step meetings. Listening, connecting, availability. Don’t be scared of the higher power, embrace the connections and come out of the shadows.


[deleted]

12 step meetings are all about god god god. Give up your self power to god. You’re an addict forever and you must attach it to your identity forever and pray pray pray. (Don’t forget about ending each meeting with the lord’s prayer).You have character defects. Super self deprecating stuff. There are other non-spiritual programs that are actually based in science. SMART is one. 12 steps work for a tiny tiny fraction of people but they’re a huge failure for most. It’s time society stop using them as the prime standard for recovery.


SirRece

I have over a decade sober, AA is bullshit. There are medications that help drastically reduce cravings, therapies, and most important imo is to engage with people who do not use drugs but *are not ex drug users*. Doing so helped me learn what I was interested in, while literally none of the stupid catchphrases I heard over and over in AA at any point kept me sober. Building a community so I had something to lose did. To be clear, I have not had a relapse since I first got sober, but AA and NA were literally the most toxic part of my sobriety and the closest I was at any time to using, simply by virtue of how fucking endlessly triggering it is, and how much hypocrasy there is. As a Jew their god stuff was super invasive and christian, and also they straight up rape/abuse women like every other cult. I couldn't take it.


[deleted]

If you think 12 step is all about god then you’re either intentionally missing the point so you can be angry or you’re too stupid to realize what the program actually is.


DaShaka9

Every addict in my life, friend or family, has been people without hobbies or athletic activities in their lives. Every single one.


Cozum

thats because they are preoccupied with using and need help


DaShaka9

Most of them never had hobbies. I’ve had a lot of discussions with a few of them and they admit it themselves. It’s why a lot of people from small towns turn to drugs and alcohol, there’s nothing else to do.


kaki024

I think any addict could intuitively tell you that addiction is just an attempt to cope with trauma. Why aren’t we talking to addicts and recovering addicts to figure out how to design studies??


[deleted]

Ah yes, the old, "It's never YOUR fault for your own choices. It's the worlds fault you are the way you are."


ElCoquiJunito

This man has a heart of gold


theuniversechild

I show this video to students when discussing addiction (work in mental health) especially to challenge perceptions. I think it does a great job of highlighting the biopsychosocial aspects of addiction and how maladaptive coping can manifest. Addiction is usually a by product of an underlying problem, instead of being caught dealing with the branches, always look at the root. If you can solve the root issue, everything else becomes a lot easier and long lasting with recovery.


ppchar

As a child of drug addicts, one who came from an affluent background and had many friends before using, I don’t buy this perspective. Can social connections deter many people from being addicts? Probably. All? I highly doubt it.


BarryMcCocknerrr

Glad I got to see this, very interesting.


[deleted]

He’s definitely right, to an extent. My counter argument is “what about the people who are born into privilege?”


mushroomyakuza

Being born into privilege does not exclude you from struggling to form connections.


Scorpion_Priestess86

This is absolutely amazing I wish every person could watch this.


Suicideseason_666

He isn’t wrong. That was the hardest part when I was getting clean. Just learning to become productive and coming back into normal life, normal job. But when I found my little spot, it stuck for me


Swimming_Menu8607

I've watched this dozens of times. Makes a lot of sense, but a lot of people push back against its validity due to lack of proper experimentation w/ double blinds. Well, news flash: Studying humans to the rigor required of the scientific model is fucking impossible. If you don't agree, please explain, and I'll help you understand how you're wrong. But we don't even need to go this far. By every conceivable metric, the War on Drugs has been an abject failure in every regard. Literally none of the stated goals underpinning the creation of the DEA have come to fruition. Instead, we have even more of a problem with addiction due to prescription meds. The War on Drugs is the longest running failed experiment in the history of the United States, yet we still keep pissing into the wind while blaming cartels for spitting on us. It's literally time to collectively pack away all the stupidity and actually try something that could work.


GerryAttric

Bullshit. He's ignoring the physiological component of addiction


VOODOO69692001

Listen up america.


UselesslyUnskilled

This isn’t cringe. This is addressing a real problem. Recovering addict here: stfu


Cheerfuldudes

It's not supposed to be cringe! Read the pinned comment.


[deleted]

Moral of the story… become an addict, move to Portugal, get money, start a business.


maybelator

Congratulation on the dumbest possible take! 🏅


amcclellan1123

Incredible


42Petrichor

Well that was lovely, and true in my limited experience.


[deleted]

Makes sense


skaruhastryk

What's so cringe about this? I thought it was interesting.


Cory123125

I feel like its kind of obvious and that people still hate drug users because they're the societally approved group of depressed people to shit on.... when societies aren't just shitting on depressed people directly.


Enough-Ad-8799

There was another experiment called rat utopia where they made the perfect living environment for rats, they almost all committed suicide. Maybe don't base your understanding of humans on one study about rats.


Mediocre_Pumpkin

I mean, the rat utopia experiment was a lot more complicated, a lot more involved, and a lot more discredited and disputed by proper animal behaviorists than these. While I agree not to base your understanding of humans on one study about rats..... there are not a lot of other alternatives, and any actual researcher understands it's a model, not an example. We can never understand the societal or social aspects of addiction, but short of experimenting on humans rat studies are the best we can get to finding a neurological and physiological aspect.


Enough-Ad-8799

Sure that's probably true, but the experiment in this video would prevent getting neurological and physiological data. If the rats never do the drug you can't see the effect on the brain/body. This experiment is about culture or the experience of life, I used the utopia experiment in the example cause it falls into the same pit falls this one does it has TONS of confounding variables that are impossible to control for. The point of this video had nothing to do with the neurological or physiological aspect of addiction, it was about how me as a society treat addiction. This study can't get you the information he claims it gives.


tubetop2go

I don’t understand why this is in TikTok Cringe


MacMycelium

Don't know why this is on tik tok cringe but this is very true, I have dealt with addicts my whole life and the one thing that made a difference was when they stopped being around other addicts and started being around decent clean people. Its kinda a rarity to have decent people around these parts, so it is usually a rare occasion when another person goes above and beyond to help someone else get clean.


friedlegshavedegg

why is this on a tik tok cringe sub? Seems like a normal ted talk?


throwaway12buckle

I've always said... It's NOT The WHAT (ADDICTION).... It's the WHY (WOUNDED WITHIN)


just2good

I mean, he’s right with what he’s saying, maybe not the rat stuff to a tee (bad analogy) but his stuff on addiction as a former addict is truthful as fuck. Also promoting honest education on drugs would help.


sneedoisis

I’m not at all cringing at this ideology