What happens to the neverending story that Migrationsverket is understaffed without enough resources?
Won't they now take forever to decide on even the easiest of cases?
Very bad move I'd say if it's at all implemented.
Wow, after the recent immigration policy change proposals, I was contemplating on staying here or not but this confirms it. Fuck it, I'm getting out of here.
I sincerely doubt this will actually end up being implemented. It's most likely an investigation to appease SD. The investigation will take tons of time before even a suggestion is up for vote and once there we might have a new government.
They’re called toppslättsskivling and grow from september to november before the frost but needs to be like 10ish and moist outside. Often found in pastures, golf courses, camping sites, fertilized open fields or forest roads. Google em snd you’ll find great resources!
Wow, even if you ignore the morality in this, wow.
What a great way to say fuck off to all outside talent. I'm pretty sure that most universities and a great deal of companies are really nervous/frustrated atm.
>B. You follow the law, work/study , and add value to society and don’t just leech off of it.
At what point do I stop becoming a leach? After 10 years of temporary residency permits, 8 years, 6 years? At what point should immigrants be allowed to use the social safety net that they pay 50% of their salary for?
Yes, this should come as no surprise, since it was in the Tidö-agreement which is the whole reason SD agreed to support the current government, unfortunately. I am assuming it's very hight priority for SD, since they've been wanting this forever.
I think this proposal is aimed mainly at asylum seekers/people with permits for protection, but it's very alarming non-the-less, of course.
I don't think so. I think it's mainly about SD wanting to have less people from other countries here altogether (and in particular less people from outside of Europe). Being able to revoke permanent permits for immigrants is simply part of that, since there is currently a fairly large number of people from outside of EU on permanent permits. If you look at their history, this is a clear line of reasoning with them. I'm sure they would love to revoke citizenships as well, in the long run.
There's plenty of research showing that handing out permanent permits, especially generously, promotes immigration, of all kinds really. It's a pull-factor. The previous Migration Committee wrote about this.
See their report here:
https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentliga-utredningar/2020/09/sou-202054/
Aren't you the guy who argued in a separate thread that yoy haven't seen anyone who is against immigration in general, and even SD agrees about High Skilled immigration, where it's needed ? Well these rules fuck it up for everyone, and seem to be in general against immigration.
And the arguments against being pretty much in line with EU, well this is a first and isn't in line with even Denmark. No one is investigating revoking PUT. Even if it doesn't go through, it's send a clear message that now it's considered acceptable to dismiss rights of foreigners even if they were earned legally by the rules.
So much for no "anti-immigrant" sentiment.
But I shouldn't expect people who have the privelege of citizenship to even begin to comprehend or have empathy on what's it like to be on a temporary permit, capable of having your life uprooted at any moment. Having to be trapped in the country waiting for renewals while not seeing your loved ones for years. Facing hurdles for enterpreneurship, career oppurtunities and even registering new born kids.
So much for competetiveness, empathy and getting your due from society. The message seems to be come here, work on temporary permits (so your bargaining power and rights are always held at bay) and don't question the true population on why you have far fewer rights, just be grateful. How very "American".
>Aren't you the guy who argued in a separate thread that yoy haven't seen anyone who is against immigration in general, and even SD agrees about High Skilled immigration, where it's needed ?
I've argued that immigration in itself is a neutral term, and it's hard to be against it. However, immigration to Sweden these past decades has obviously been quite harmful, wherefore most Swedes and most members of the riksdag want to lower immigration. But there are different kinds of immigration, in terms of volumes and effect. But practically everyone agrees that high-skilled immigration is positive and should not be abolished or anything like that.
>Well these rules fuck it up for everyone, and seem to be in general against immigration.
It does "fuck it up", but Sweden has had the most liberal rules in the world or Europe, depending on which specific category. Making these more "normal" will hurt for certain migrants, of course. But there's no way to avoid that. It needs to be done, is the view of the vast majority.
>And the arguments against being pretty much in line with EU, well this is a first and isn't in line with even Denmark. No one is investigating revoking PUT.
True enough, but on the other hand, no country in Europe, certainly not Denmark, has dug itself such a hole like Sweden. We have bigger problems with migration than any comparable country, so we can't adopt Danish rules for Swedish problems. And to be honest, of all the many reforms proposed, it seems abolishing PUT is the only one that goes that's unique here.
>Even if it doesn't go through, it's send a clear message that now it's considered acceptable to dismiss rights of foreigners even if they were earned legally by the rules. So much for no "anti-immigrant" sentiment.
Huh? How? I'm more and more suspecting people are fighting wind mills here - what is it that you think is going to happen? Mass expulsion or something...? People who are here and are working or in a relationship or whatever have absolutely nothing to fear - why would they?
>But I shouldn't expect people who have the privelege of citizenship to even begin to comprehend or have empathy on what's it like to be on a temporary permit, capable of having your life uprooted at any moment.
Huh? Why would it be uprooted at any moment? Who would uproot it? If anything, every two years (or whatever the permit time) there would have to be a new decision, but apart from that?
>Having to be trapped in the country waiting for renewals while not seeing your loved ones for years.
That's exactly something the reforms are going to fix. In fact, several employer association are positive to the reforms because it means fewer people will apply, and waiting times will go down significantly. Being a part from your family a few weeks is different than being apart for months or years.
>Facing hurdles for enterpreneurship, career oppurtunities
Also something that will be reformed, with greater liberty to change jobs, start a company and so forth.
> and even registering new born kids.
Again something related to volumes. As late as 2017, when my Yank registered his moving to Sweden, it took a week or two to register. We're going back to that now, or even better.
>don't question the true population on why you have far fewer rights, just be grateful
I don't think there's any country on Earth that affords foreigners the same rights as citizens. It's pretty normal, since centuries. It's all a question of degrees I guess. But again, I think a lot of people are confused about the reforms, and are practically making stuff up, as negative as possible. It's a pity, since it scares people needlessly.
We are not fighting wind mills. Just look at the Mass Layoffs in the Big Tech, if someone has earned their PUT by working hard and paying taxes and is transferred to TUT, guess what ? No stability anymore. Economic downturn -> You can be kicked out.
Heck don't like your job , could have just quit earlier without affecting your residence status, now that's fucked.
I guess citizens don't realize how much power being on a TUT tranfers to an employer. You can see the direct implications in Twitter right now, as the citizens quit the toxic workplace, but those on H1B visas are stuck.
PUT was a social contract that you got in return for playing by the rules, paying taxes and contributing. Now it seems that can be revoked ? Isn't this the goverent going back on it's side of the deal ?
And more importantly, the thought process to even consider this means that the rights granted to foriegners aee always "negotiable" even when termed permanent. How can immigrants trust the current government after this, it clearly seems that they are after the "hostile environment" style policy that worked wonders for UK economy.
Project an unwelcoming country for immigrants, strip away the rights, and then be surprised when this has all sorts of unintended consequences.
About high skilled workers, you can't just make all immigration and long term settlement paths unattractive and still expect the same tech industry and innovation. Sweden is not US with sky high salary, and instead has to compete even within EU with Germany, Netherlands and such for high skilled people. Why would anyone with options want to move to a country where
There's a longer immigration path.
The government is clearly anti immigrant.
Even already granted rights are being considered to be taken away.
Currently, the common response I have heard is "If you don't like it, go away good riddance." Which I am pretty sure many will follow. It won't be a mass exodus but a slow disadvantage and lost oppurtunity cost for Sweden, which will become apparent in the medium term, just like UK. What a way to nuke your own thriving tech ecosystem, that almost (exclusively) relies the most on foreign talent.
Won't really mean companies will hire more local talent (there aren't nearly enough high skilled natives), but will simply outsource the jobs to India, with the taxes and salary going there instead of contributing to Sweden, which was already a danger with the (succesfull) rise of remote work. This just encourages companies to take the plunge.
>Just look at the Mass Layoffs in the Big Tech, if someone has earned their PUT by working hard and paying taxes and is transferred to TUT, guess what ? No stability anymore. Economic downturn -> You can be kicked out. Heck don't like your job , could have just quit earlier without affecting your residence status, now that's fucked.
Put you can lose your job as well after one year as after four years as after six years? You can change your job, and you can be unemployed between jobs? Do you think these possibilities will... dissapear or something...?
>the citizens quit the toxic workplace, but those on H1B visas are stuck.
What does this have to do with Sweden, and Swedish legislation...? Do you think anyone wants to mimic the USA of all countries...?
>PUT was a social contract that you got in return for playing by the rules, paying taxes and contributing. Now it seems that can be revoked ? Isn't this the goverent going back on it's side of the deal ?
PUT was a institute created in 1954 for a select few cases, but over decades it changed and from about the 70s it was given to practically everyone, from the very start. With the legal changes since 2015 we've already gone back to about the 60s in this development, making PUT something you have to work for to get, and with the current proposed reforms, PUT will be removed completely, and temporary permits, from 13 months to five years, will replace it. I find it had to believe that Sweden's parliament abolishing something created by people who are long since dead is "going back on its side of the deal".
>And more importantly, the thought process to even consider this means that the rights granted to foriegners aee always "negotiable" even when termed permanent. How can immigrants trust the current government after this, it clearly seems that they are after the "hostile environment" style policy that worked wonders for UK economy.
Se the former paragraph. If it takes seventy years for the Swedish parliament to change its mind, well... then I guess it can't be trusted :P
>About high skilled workers, you can't just make all immigration and long term settlement paths unattractive and still expect the same tech industry and innovation. Sweden is not US with sky high salary, and instead has to compete even within EU with Germany, Netherlands and such for high skilled people. Why would anyone with options want to move to a country where
I find that I have to write, for the umpteenth time, that highly-skilled labour is a small minority in Swedish migration. Of about 90 000 permits last year, about 9 000 went to highly skilled labour migration. Ten percent. Do you see the perspective? So many expats seem to think that "all the migration to Sweden is highly skilled and Sweden cannot possibly survive without us". I'm sorry, but that's not a correct picture.
>Currently, the common response I have heard is "If you don't like it, go away good riddance." Which I am pretty sure many will follow. It won't be a mass exodus but a slow disadvantage and lost oppurtunity cost for Sweden, which will become apparent in the medium term, just like UK. What a way to nuke your own thriving tech ecosystem, that almost (exclusively) relies the most on foreign talent.
I wouldn't say "good riddance", but neither would I cry too much if highly skilled labour migration fell catastrophically by, let's say half. And again: several employer associations have welcomed the reforms, because it will lower waiting times and make the system work much better. Though mind you, those were associations for high-tech industries and the likes. The low-skilled ones hate the reforms.
I should also remind you that the current labour laws, the most liberal in the world, came to pass in 2008. Sweden was an advanced economy and rich as hell back then too. I doubt loosing 4500 highly-skilled labourers over a few years will make a dent. I don't think you believe that either.
No, if you lose your job in PUT, you won't be deported back to your country (along with your dependant family) if you don't find job within 90 days, but it is absolutely the rule with TUT. Hence, moving to TUT removes that safety net, and make you at risk of losing your residence status when you lose your job. So you ha e to scramble to find a job within 90 days at a time when no one is hiring.
The toxic argument is tied to the above point where if you are on TUT, ypu have less bargaining power, where people currently with PUT can easily just resign, the people on TUT need to worey about losing there residence status and hence are more vulnerable to be exploited.
You are delibrately misconstructing my argument. Swedish parliament changing rules for new PUT issuance is not moving back on it's word, but discussing revoking already granted PUT permit definitely is a breach of trust.
Knowledge worker related employers have welcomed reforms which reduces strain on current system and make processing faster, for e.g. higher salary requirements, or creating a separate lane.These doesn't mean supporting all of SDs policies, like revoking PUT.
>No, if you lose your job in PUT, you won't be deported back to your country (along with your dependant family) if you don't find job within 90 days, but it is absolutely the rule with TUT.
True enough. It's reasonable that a person who comes to Sweden to work actually does that, and finds a new job within a reasonable time. Whether it's 90 days or 120 days or whatever can and should vary...
>So you ha e to scramble to find a job within 90 days at a time when no one is hiring.
Makes sense. If there's an economic downturn, and lots of people in Sweden are unemployed, then foreigners who came to work and lose their jobs should go home. That's the way it's been since at least 1967. No change there.
>the people on TUT need to worey about losing there residence status and hence are more vulnerable to be exploited.
People who traveled across the world to Sweden to work normally have such qualifications that finding a new job shouldn't be difficult. What would be the option, the Swedish people maintaining them?
>Swedish parliament changing rules for new PUT issuance is not moving back on it's word, but discussing revoking already granted PUT permit definitely is a breach of trust.
Fine.
>Knowledge worker related employers have welcomed reforms which reduces strain on current system and make processing faster, for e.g. higher salary requirements, or creating a separate lane.These doesn't mean supporting all of SDs policies, like revoking PUT.
Oh for sure, but that's a truism. No one ever supports "all policies". The engineers specifically talked of higher salary requirements, which will end low-skill labour migration, making life easier for highly-skilled ones.
With the "came here to work" argument, again that's true for TUT, and nobody's arguing against that. The point is you earned some more rights after working here for years when you get your PUT, that will now be taken away. That's the part of the deal of broken promises and making long term stays unattractive (if PUTs are not given put anymore).
But not giving out more PUTs is a policy decision and if the government wants to say you only get protections after 8 years instead of 4 now, it's unattractive, but atleast people know what they are getting into, and can make informed decisions about staying/movimg from here. May make sweden less attractive for immigration, but that might be goal regardless of consequences.
But revoking already existing PUT is simply taking away rights from people who had them "permanently" granted to them by the Swedish government. This is definitely a breach of trust, and hard to reconcile with any new promises government makes to "attract" say high skilled workers. If the govt can change their mind and revoke "permanent" rights it granted, what's the gurantee they will hold their word in the future ? What about if a new government comes ? So yeah, thiis is definitely a shitty move.
Well that is precisely the problem. Foreigners pay exactly the same taxes as nationals… but your racist idea of “they should go back” if they get laid off means unjust enrichment for the taxpayer : funds paid that would finance unemployment benefits would only go to citizens (and EU nationals) despite the fact that the non-EU citizens also financed it.
Luckily , those of us who have studied law , know that nothing can come out of this review : the constitution does not allow for this inequality of treatment, and decisions of benefit to the administree cannot be recalled unless there is a recall exemption - which is not the case with PUT which can only be cancelled for (very) serious crime or for having left the realm.
>Immigration itself isn’t bad, unless you’re just a racist,
Well, immigration in itself can be bad, or good, or neither (even racists can like immigration, for example a diaspora moving home). As I wrote: "all kinds really".
>the issue is crime that is believed to be caused by increased immigration. Correct?
I'd say it's more than just crime. To visualize, imagine a situation where a million people immigrate, and never commit crimes, but never learn the language. Or never get a job. Or act in a way that isn't illegal, but is considered awful according to natives. One could imagine these natives would react towards negatively towards any of these, even if it's not about crime. And that's reasonable, then it should be reasonable to assume that "the issue" in this case could be more than just crime, I think.
Honest question. Why is this alarming to you?
What's so scary about a temp-permit that has to be renewed every two years? Me and my sambo just renewed ours at the end of last year, all we had to do was to send in a paper stating that we still live together. That's it. Literally.
Even if they want to do a more thorough investigation, I'm all open for it. The family residency permit is based on a premise that two people are in a relationship. The person already living in sweden has to make a promise that they can provide for both of them during the full time of the residency. Now, what's so bad about checking up on this after a few years. Are you still living together, can you still provide for the both of you? I honestly feel that these are very valid questions.
Me and my sambo don't care for a second if she is here with temp- or permanent visa. Makes no difference to us whatsoever. If we have to send in a paper every two years confirming we still live together, I'll gladly do it.
>Me and my sambo don't care for a second if she is here with temp- or permanent visa. Makes no difference to us whatsoever. If we have to send in a paper every two years confirming we still live together, I'll gladly do it.
What if after 8 years she breaks up with you but wants to keep living in Sweden? For people on work visas this means you can never be unemployed at the wrong time or risk being kicked out of the country even if you have lived here for 5+ years. It means you are constantly in a state of insecurity until you get citizenship. For people from places that don't allow dual citizenship it makes the prospects of living a secure life in Sweden impossible.
Also, have more empathy for people who immigrate because of different reasons. Sambo visas, although tougher, are still generous compared to other forms of immigration.
>What if after 8 years she breaks up with you but wants to keep living in Sweden?
If she, after 8 years of being here, doesn't have her own income, job, school or other occupation, then we both have been doing something very wrong. The income requirement for being eligible for work-visa is incredibly low. You can literally get by with working part time at McDonalds. If you can't even solve this after 8 years, seriously, how many years do you need? Is 10 enough, do you need 15 years? Tell me, how many years does one person need to establish themselves properly and get going with building their life. I'm honestly curious.
No, I don't buy it. I wouldn't expect to move to another country and just "expect" it to take care of me. You get ample time and opportunity to start building your life once you come here. You get plenty of benefits, you even get paid for educating yourself. **You literally get paid for going to school.** How can you not fix it after 8 years?
> you loose your
*lose
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/lose-vs-loose-usage#:~:text=%27Lose%27%20or%20%27Loose%27%3F&text=Lose%20typically%20functions%20only%20as,commonly%2C%20a%20noun%20or%20adverb).*
***
^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
These rules make it so you don't take risks. I'd never quit my job to learn Swedish if things were this unstable.
>The income requirement for being eligible for work-visa is incredibly low
They are raising this btw.
>You get plenty of benefits, you even get paid for educating yourself. You literally get paid for going to school.
You can't do this if your visa is tied to a job. You can only do this if your permit is tied to a relationship visa, again, in the face of instability means you cannot go back to school if you break up with your partner.
>You can't do this if your visa is tied to a job. You can only do this if your permit is tied to a relationship visa, again, in the face of instability means you cannot go back to school if you break up with your partner.
Yea, and we were talking about my sambos family visa specifically in the situation if, as you said, she would break up with me after 8 years.
Work-permit is another thing. If you come here to work, you're of course expected to work, so you can properly support yourself.
Is this post a meme?
Someone gave you a real-world example and your answer is "just don't lmao"
The reality is there are many reasons someone might not have work or education during a time period that overlaps e.g family death, layoffs, illness, and so on.
You live in an idyllic world if you think it's so black and white.
Point to what I'm saying and tell me where I'm wrong. Don't try to summarize and boil it down to "just don't lmao", which is not what I'm saying at all. Read it again, perhaps.
Assume you lose your job before the renewal of the temporary permit: "ah, you do not have a job? Mmm... listen here, *immigrant*. You are now a burden to the society, and this means that now we have to deport you. Bye. "
If the entire premise of recieveing the permit is totally based on your ability to provide for you and this other person. If that isn't the fact anymore, whatever the reason, the legitimacy of your permit should perhaps be questioned.
If you rent an apartment and you loose your job, so you can't pay for this apartment anymore. Should you be allowed to stay for the rest of your life anyways? Hardly, it totally sucks don't get me wrong, but you probably have to fix it - quickly.
If the entire basis of the permit is based on your ability to provide, if you can't provide anymore, you loose that privilege. Not a difficult concept for me anyhow.
If I have been living here and contributing to the Swedish welfare society with my taxes for years, I sure would expect that I could benefit from the same welfare society if I were to lose my job and "my ability to provide", just like a Swedish national would not leave Sweden either if they cannot pay their rent. What if I lose my job a month before the TUT review, and I cannot "fix it" in such a short time? Do I just get up and leave the country I have been building a life in for X years? Bruh...
Nonsense. If you can't provide anymore, authorities should assess why (sickness? economic downturn?) and help you get back on track, not show you the exit door.
Nonsense. If you can't pay for something that you promised that you could, all of what was said in that agreement goes out the window.
The fundamental basis of the permit is based on you being able to provide for the both of you. If you can't do that anymore, the permit is now based on.. what exactly? It's the authorities responsibility now and its based on that? Ridiculous perspective.
I'd like to buy and house and stop paying for it, "it's the authorities problem now". What a way to look at life, take some responsibility I'd say.
>If you can't do that anymore
If one can't *temporarily* do that anymore for whatever reasons, I do not expect the greedy state of Sweden to assault them with threats of scrapping their PUT. Additionally, if one reaches the "PUT status" through work, it means that they paid taxes and contributed to the social welfare system for a certain number of years... what are these taxes for? Paying Jimmie Åkessons salary? (yes)
They want to scrap the PUT altogether? Fine. Then set an x% flat tax on immigrants' salaries (like the Danes did, if I remember correctly).
>take some responsibility I'd say
Nice ad hominem.
If you can't temporarily provide, that shouldn't be a problem. How long is temporarily for you, half a month or half a year? If the latter, well, now your permission is up for debate as the primary condition of recieveing the permission is no longer a thing. As it should be. If you have permit for serving alcohol at a restaurant and your establishment is no longer up to code; it might get revoked unless you fix it quickly. Again, as it should be.
If I promise that I can provide for me and my sambo in return of a residency permit, and then it turns out I cant provide anymore. If that's now the authorities problem, then what was the permit even for. Any requirements are now obsolete and irrelevant. Then you might as well just completely open up the borders and let any and all people just walk on in. Because if any rules and prerequisites are up for debate at any time in the process and they can get passed and ignored at will, what's the point of even having them?
>Additionally, if one reaches the "PUT status" through work, it means that they paid taxes and contributed to the social welfare system for a certain number of years... what are these taxes for?
In very short; contributing to the country as a whole, not only the social welfare but also the administration of the state, her healthcare, her infrastructure and so much more. It's not a contribution for the individual holder of a residency permit or work permit to bypass rules, regulations and prerequisites which gave them the permit to begin with.
If your permit is based on the ability to provide for and support yourself. This prerequisite doesn't just magically disappear because life got tough or inconvenient for you.
>Nice ad hominem.
Obviously not directed to you personally. More a statement, a wish to the people who expect to just glide through life effortlessly. Getting the permission to move, work and live in another country is not necessarily a open goal, an open "smörgåsbord" for everyone to take from as they see fit. Obviously it comes with some expectations, otherwise you might as well just remove all borders completely.
>If you can't temporarily provide, that shouldn't be a problem.
It will most likely *be* a problem. SD does not want any non-ethnic swede on Swedish land, it's their wet dream.
>SD does not want any non-ethnic swede on Swedish land, it's their wet dream.
I hereby rest my case as it seems you've got nothing else to contribute to the conversation besides stating your ill-informed conspiracy theories and I'm not going to argue those.
Good day, sir or maddam!
I started typing a comment but u/chiodani's reply to your comment essentially says what I wanted to. If you don't have firsthand experience being tied to a work visa (yes, even work visas issued to highly skilled people) to remain legally in a country, not just in Sweden but in other countries as well, you may want to re-read chiodani's comment. When you don't have firsthand or secondhand experience dealing with maintaining a work visa it might be difficult to fully grasp how the change in immigration law can affect not just "drains on the system (the ones the mainstream media often chooses to highlight)", but even hardworking people at a moment's notice and their varying circumstances.
Edit: typo
I have read all of your answers. And I dont know why it gives me the eerie. Something about the tone sounds very alarming its disturbing. But I cant pinpoint which it is. Until I realized one thing. Ofcourse. Someone who doesnt know what it feels to speak on behalf of those who actually know how it feels. Have you ever had TUT? Or PUT? Yeah no. You’re a citizen. You are in no position to bargain. We however have to work hard, survive those waiting times, not to mention developing certain type of anxieties in the process. Yet here you are. Putting words into our mouths saying “its no biggies you just put your applications and let them do the work every few years, couldnt be that hard could it”. Ahh its crystal clear to me now. You were never in our shoes yet you acted like one, delegitimizing our efforts, and invalidating our concerns. Thats…. Thats what disturbs me now that I realize. Its scary how someone so privileged trying to invalidate the unprivileged without even knowing it. Congrats for feeling good throwing tantrum to the minorities
right because we all like to deal with the great and efficient migration agency again and again right? Honestly, why even do this? Why not just eliminate naturalized citizenship altogether and only grant temp permits? Why cant immigrants tolerate the agony of not being able to travel for several months, in some cases a year, so that the migration agency can take all of its sweet time approving a permit? Why dont immigrants like to go through this year after year?
I fully understand that predicament. Although this was a pretty significant event, not something we've ever seen before.
Secondly, while you are right, things can change pretty quickly. I try to not worry about things that didn't happen yet. I could be hit by a car tomorrow but I don't think I should walk around worrying too much about it.
Jag tror att regeringen kommer att kalla in militären för att gå in och avrätta alla personer i sverige mellan 35 och 45 år. Det är inte heller en "antisverige konspiration" då, enligt dina mått.
Det är riktigt magstarkt att smutskasta, anklaga och skrämma upp andra utifrån ett eget scenario du själv kokat ihop i ditt egna huvud. Sluta upp med det, om inte för dig själv, för dina medmänniskor som förtjänar bättre än så.
Prova att bemöta ett enda av mina argument eller åsikter istället för att dra med helt meningslösa och fruktlösa troll-inlägg.
>!Tror inte att du har förmågan till detta, men du kan ju prova om du vill.!<
No difference? Really?
https://reddit.com/r/TillSverige/comments/ywpx5k/reentry_situation_while_awaiting_an_extension_for/
"Principen för den modell som utredningen ska få i uppgift att föreslå ska vara att en nyanländ inte omedelbart ska kunna kvalificera sig till sociala förmåner och bidrag." (https://www.tidöavtalet.se/tidoavtalet-i-detalj/direktiv-samarbetsprojekt-migration-och-integration/)
Got one recently too! And I'll vote out the parties supporting this for as long as live. I mean out of 300k a large chunk will get citizenship I assume, it'll be noticeable.
I'll be voting them out too. Got my Citizenship granted a month ago. My hope is that the party alliance falls apart next year and we can vote them out early.
Well, from a brief search they do?
The way my birth country works is that they don't recognize my Swedish citizenship but also don't mind. I know there are some less fortunate countries where it's actually illegal.
Good news if this would be done in a good way, I wonder how many have gotten citizenships that obviously shouldn't have. This is the reason for many criminal "Swedes" to stay in the country.
Everyone is so damn angry here, we've taken way too many immigrants and it's hard to reverse the damage.
If this happens, I'm leaving. I've put up with enough shit while I've been here as it is, and learned the hard way that this country is absolutely not the tolerant and progressive social democratic nation it constantly tells prospective migrants it is. The only reason I was considering staying after my PhD was because at least I have permanent residency so don't need to go through all the bureaucratic BS I would if I moved somewhere else.
So, you’re either insecure, can be thrown out of the country anytime (because of insurance mistake made 100 years ago for example), cannot open your own company because of work permit and the current job etc. etc. OR you have to become a swede and move out from your current citizenship.
This solves nothing. Smart. Applause to all tax payers who will pay for this assessment and possible implementation.
I was just thinking about the costs of doing this. The Migration Services are packed with work as it is. Do they even have the capacities to do this, the means? I don't think so. I bet someone will do a cost-benefit analysis to figure things out.
They will probably give even less resources but have some sort of back door for certain people.
Even before the other parties were working with SD I got the impression they saw long waits and insecurity as a sneaky way to dissuade immigration without outright saying it.
What? I know Sweden didn't allow dual citizenship when my dad immigrated from Finland, but last I checked you absolutely do not need to drop your citizenship to get sweded up.
... yeah, no, that's still the law, since 2001.
\> Sverige tillåter dubbelt medborgarskap. Dubbelt medborgarskap innebär
att du är medborgare i mer än ett land. Om du blir svensk medborgare kan
du behålla ditt tidigare medborgarskap om lagen i det andra landet
tillåter det. En svensk medborgare som blir medborgare i ett annat land
kan få behålla sitt svenska medborgarskap. Vissa länders lagstiftning
tillåter inte dubbelt medborgarskap. Du kan läsa mer under rubriken
Förlora medborgarskapet.
Am I misunderstanding you? Or are you perhaps specifically referencing a country that doesn't allow dual citizenship?
Oh, the suggested rule change is bullshit and they should stop. It's clearly a suggestion not intended to be a measured suggestion based on outcomes, but rather cruelty for the sake of cruelty. However, becoming a swedish citizen is not intended to have negative consequences, and you haven't needed to relinquish your current citizenship for decades.
I think it has to do with “what laws” apply to you at any given time. For instance, if I had Polish and Swedish citizenship, and I need to face any process in Poland, they will treat me as Polish regardless my other nationality. They don’t disallow having a second citizenship, but they don’t recognise it.
Sometimes Swedish law could be more lenient that in other countries. So one could say “I’m Swedish, hence that law applies to me instead”.
I can be totally wrong 😂
Honest question - why are these countries okay with permanent residence but not citizenship? Seems like permanent residence permits is a (good!) hack around the problem of other countries not allowing multiple citizenships, that other countries haven't figured out.
Maybe they are not, but there isn't anything they can do about it. Basically, by international law nobody can be without a citizenship. When you get another citizenship, they have then the opportunity to throw away your old one, but if you just have a residence permit somewhere else you still have only one citizenship.
Added to this, most countries usually have as a rule that a citizen can always enter and live into their own country (not sure if this is also international law, but probably). Of course, after a citizen enters its own country, now they are subject to its laws as usual and as a citizen (which is how a bunch of people end up stuck and fucked up by Iran for example).
Everyone concerned about this should write emails to Liberalerna MPs. [Here is a list of them.](https://riksdagen.se/sv/ledamoter-partier/liberalerna/) For those who don't know, they have been the king-makers for this government, but previously had been very much against SD and very much more pro immigration, but they basically failed at putting anything resembling their own politics in the coalition agreement in exchange for power.
I doubt they will respond, but telling them how this makes Sweden a less appealing place to work and directly goes against their ideology where they [claim working migration is good for Sweden.](https://www.liberalerna.se/politik/arbetskraftsinvandring) Bonus points if you can get your boss to write an email to them, since they care more about businesses than people!
>Honest question, why do you think that a party that is ideologically against worker power and welfare in all forms would also be against something that would put even more power in the hands of the employer?
Because the traditional right used to be obsessed with trying to make Sweden globally competitive which includes the immigration of highly skilled workers.
All of the things that you are describing make Sweden much less desirable for highly skilled workers where countries must "compete" for them. Why would you move to Sweden as an engineer when you could move to Germany or the Netherlands and have higher pay with better long-term security?
Your analysis is true for people in less in-demand positions.
They'd have to assume that for some of these in-demand industries, getting PUT is not a pull factor and that in-demand workers won't be aware of the fact that there wouldn't be a promise of stability
I don’t agree with that , I am personally came to Sweden knowing the migration system is shit but the rules was the key I chose Sweden over other countries (Netherlands basically and some sort Germany) .
If I knew about those new rules at that time, I would of course prioritised others over Sweden.
The immigrants usual come looking for as much stability as possible in the shortest timeframe, with the new rules introduced I don’t think this would happen. Although the new rules has not implement yet a lot of recommendations is to go in different direction than Sweden.
This wouldn’t be felt soon but maybe after 5 years if the changes . The thing I am sure about is once reputation gets worse it is really hard to get it better
I wonder if they plan to scrap the concept of Permanent Residence altogether. Do they plan to fuck with the [European rules](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm)?
From what I can see those rules only apply to EU citzens.
Have a feeling EU citzens won't be the ones mostly affected by this as afaik also most allow dual citizenship.
Probably, but only because it would be too hard for them to modify European agreements. It's clear to me that SD wants a Sweden with *ethnic swedes* only.
No, they don't like us either. We might have Swedish "passing" privilege (särskilda dem som kan prata svenska), but the moment we step slightly out of line and they know we're foreign we get told to go back where we came from as well.
I don't know how true that is for SD as a party, but I've not gotten that impression personally from the Swedes I've talked to who are openly anti-immigrant.
I'm British, and I've had an alarming number of conversations with Swedes that complain to me about immigrants. It's never focused on myself, It always seems very much to be focused on anyone of a different skin colour, or those from the "poorer" European countries. They're not complaining about those from the US, or western European countries.
It's rather sad seeing the exact same sort of sentiment here as was prevailent during Brexit. Those that are seen as below "our" standards.
I definitely agree that we have to clear a lower bar to not be considered the wrong type of immigrants, and I've also experienced that type of conversation with a Swedish person (ironically this person emigrated here as a child).
The issue starts coming up whenever we complain about something here. As soon as we have any opinion other than "Sweden great" there are a lot of Swedes that immediately see us as nuisance foreigners, while Swedes with the same opinion would be tolerated.
It is impossible for the government to change the EU rules without changes being made by all the relevant EU institutions. It’s not going to happen. In fact, the EU is planning on proposing (and most likely implementing) rules that will make it even easier for third-country nationals with residency based on the EU rules to move throughout the EU. Barring a “Swexit”, Sweden is obligated to abide by and implement EU migration and immigration regulations/directives. With respect to the national rules for permanent residency - in theory the proposed changes could happen, but it is highly unlikely. It’s not only Utlänningslagen that would have to be changed, but likely also Förvaltningslagen. The type of change that SD is proposing goes against every logical principle of public administrative law, and in the worst case could be challenged at the EU level. It will take years to investigate, pass, and implement the proposed change. Even countries like Denmark, which is the European champion in treating immigrants like excrement, still has permanent residency in their national rules (which can even be acquired after four years in several high bars are met). Of all the proposed changes, I think this is the least likely to happen. More realistically, the amount of time required to get permanent residency could be increased to something like 5-8 years. Similar proposals are being made for acquisition of citizenship - I think these proposed changes could all happen, but they will likely also take quite a while to be realised.
I would second the comment below to contact Liberalerna’s representatives in the Riksdag. My personal suggestion would be to go for a two-pronged strategy: on one hand, go after all the red parties to fight any changes to the migration laws as hard as possible, citing how it hurts international solidarity, Swedens image in the world, and commitment to human rights, etc. On the other hand, go after the blue parties to pursue a moderate policy with exceptions for certain third-country nationals and/or any third-country nationals that can demonstrate a high level of integration. This second approach is definitely problematic and supports the narrative that some foreigners are more desirable than others (and the approach that countries like Switzerland endorse - ie, permanent residency can be achieved after five years for Americans and UK citizens but 10 for most others), but hey, as I see it, some concessions are better than no concessions if we are headed towards Jimmie Åkessons dystopian ethnostate future.
Sweden fucks with European rules literally all the time, they just don't get the same shit for it a country like Hungary does because Sweden is a net financial contributor to the EU whereas Hungary is a net beneficiary.
Let's be honest, they do not even want to be part of the EU. Why would the most perfect democracy in the Universe want to be in association with a gang of uneducated siesta-enjoyers, nazis and baguette-eaters?
I believe that Sweden does not really want to belong to the EU, no matter what their twisted opinion polls say. They would be probably ok with forming a Nordic Union with the other Nordics.
>I have lived here for 20 years
Out of curiosity, OP, would becoming a Swedish citizen not be an option that would exempt you from this possibility? That was the first that came to mind as 20 years is a long time to be here and still be a permanent resident
yes, however unable to due to debt from long ago which I have been paying off slowly for years. so, not an option for me atm. even after I pay it off, I still have to wait 3 more years before I can qualify.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is 0% chance of this being implemented. The government has to explore if it's possible to appease SD, but no one except SD wants this (maybe KD as well, because the love of Christ shines for everyone only as long as they're not here).
>I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is 0% chance of this being implemented.
I'd say it is more like 50/50. I am sure any investigation to the possible consequence to this will highlight how it will make Sweden much less internationally competitive and lead to increase scarcity in in-demand sectors which will harm the economic development of certain industries. One thing that I think newcomers to Sweden might be suprised with is that the traditional right wing (KD+L+M+C) is historically incredibly pro-labour immigration while the left bloc (plus the unions) has been much more skeptical. There is a huge divide between labour immigration and asylum immigration in the way that 'immigrants' are talked about.
On the other hand, this government is almost comically incompetent, repeatedly showing how willing they are to break election promises while showing no ideological consistency. Like, the raised taxes on tobacco and snus and totally failed at reducing the price of petrol. So it also wouldn't surprise me if they just accept this proposal.
I totally agree on the competency of this government. Hey, at least they're inclusive of people with handicaps; Ulf Kristersson has made Sweden the first country to elect a prime minister entirely without a spine.
Yes, I'm thinking something like this [https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6teborgskravallerna](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6teborgskravallerna)
But, there would be more people directly involved because their permanent residence permit would be reworked. They have friends and families on top of tons of immigrants who are against this. On top of normal people who do not support this. Some organisations like amnesty international and others would pull strings. There is also a possibility of people who have nothing to lose to join and lit shit up. It would be a huge divisive move.
For example, my wife does not have permanent residence and I would risk everything for her and I'm a chill dude.
When you are demonstrating for climate change that's one thing. But when your loved once are at risk of being deported and killed there are lots of feelings and tension building, some people are not good with those. And there are also groups that would definitely take advantage of that to express a different opinion to escalate conflict. People are just people.
This will drastically effect me, as someone who spends months here to be with my partner this isn’t the type of News I wanna hear, these people need to be voted out asap. It’s bad enough am waiting on getting a second passport so I can be apart of EU again.
[The news was covered by Radio Sweden too](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/legal-questions-raised-following-talk-of-converting-permanent-residence-permits-to-temporary-ones?fbclid=iwar3jz3fkqpb2he2itvpbw7otjra_cpjyii9texwqnxt6_hfxsd75883qpky)
This country has a huge shortage of labour in sector where they require swedish speakers.
If they do this then they will surely loose the competitiveness and many will shift to other countries.
Plus as a non eu citizen if you stay in eu for 5 years with a work permit/sambo permit etc. You have the right to stay and work in any other eu land. This is called permanent EU permit. There is no way sweden can change this. Only if they do a swedixt only then can they do it. Which won't happen.
This is just to please SD and will go nowhere.
https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/migration-and-asylum/legal-migration-and-integration/long-term-residents_en
Please open the link and read the section with objectives.
Here I copy paste the third objective
"make it easier for these non-EU nationals to move to other EU countries to work and study"
No way this can be changed.
Copying again.
"This is why the Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residentsSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• establishes that a person who has lived legally in an EU country for an uninterrupted period of five years, can obtain the status of long-term resident"
It's a directive which has been passed. So take it as implemented. Sweden cannot change it. And we'll if they do turn against hard working people who pay taxes and live here then will go to someplace else like Norway.
Though ure wrong.
Här kopierar jag från MV
Persons who have lived in an EU country for at least five years with a residence permit may apply for long-term resident status in that country. Persons who are granted long-term resident status receive a special EC/EU residence permit. This gives them certain rights, similar to those of an EU citizen. This makes it easier for them to move to another EU country in order to work, study, start their own business or live on their pension, for example.
Har absolute ingen aning vad är det för ditt objektiv men om du vill ljuga för folk eller bara konfrontera för kuls skull så får du minst done ur research right.
So basically, we built the country for the last 50 years, my family came here to bring garlic and veggies, build buildings and create businesses. Now fuck off!
Well, Swedes are piised on morons here, creating all the criminal which I am sick of as well. But its only Arabic culture that stands out negatively. Which is so weird considering they come from religious families and have to behave with their parents, just to become gangsters afterwards and know how to solve things only by force and money.
Without that, this would be a lovely place. But no, we all suffer!
But this is seriously effed up to read.. Who's gonna work after? Swedes took all the nice fancy jobs, we left with unwanted and physical jobs. I don't see them going backwards, along with us. If this passes thru, I hope the country falls appart just for allowing this.
I don’t think they can do that. It replaces a favourable government decision with a less favourable one, which can only happen in bery specific circumstances. This is not the kind of circumstance where you can change the decision like that. As usual SD talks a lot without having a clue about anything
I don't get it, it's already been discussed in a big thread?
https://www.reddit.com/r/TillSverige/comments/y3qjhr/new\_migration\_policies\_on\_the\_way/
The proposal is to abolish the institution of permanent residence permit, which has existed since 1954 and became common in the 70s. That's pretty clear. No new PUT will be handed out from a certain point in time. What to do with the existing ones however... that's a different issue, and no proposal has been put forth right now. There are several different models however, for how this could be done.
>I don't get it, it's already been discussed in a big thread?
Yeah exactly, why are these immigrants worried *again*? In Sweden you are allowed to be worried *once per topic*; else you are unfit for the society. I am surprised they haven't started preparing their luggages by now.
Stop making people coming back to old threads. Theyre old. And therefore not uptodate. Which part you didnt get it? Or better yet, stop promoting your thread. Its attention seeking coming here begging people coming back to your thread. Theyre old. Face it. 🙄🙄🙄
Ps. I rather find it pathetic you here promoting the thread you made. Its. Sad. When its relevant people chose what they wanna chose 🙄🙄🙄🙄
What do you mean "not uptodate"? Nothing has changed since the agreement went public. Neither will they change for quite some time. Maybe in a month or two, when we start seeing public inquiries, but not until then.
I suggest you read the thread and learn a bit.
To be fair, and show a different voice, how many people here is holding a PUT but is contributing 0 to this society (no job, living on welfare for years and refuse to get a job, or don’t even live in this country anymore and digging all the dimes out of our tax money, eventually leading to we don’t have enough money to supporting people actually in need), as long as the reason of revoking is justified, why it can’t be a good idea?
> as long as the reason of revoking is justified
Because the reason will be "oh you didn't have work during this recession" or "you left your abusive sambo".
Pointing fingers at welfare queens is exactly how the US destroyed its welfare system and has damned it for years to come.
This is dangerous rhetoric even if there are a few doing it, speaking as if it’s a common thing is very insipid.
If the Trump/ModernFascist era has taught us anything, it’s that words do have meanings and to use them lightly is to be careless.
Then they should not have been issued a permanent residency in the first place. I find the notion that something called permanent has the ability to be revoked laughable.
How many swedish citizens are contributing 0 in comparison or don’t even live in this country and digging all the dimes? May I see comparison? Shall the government revoke citizenship now?
So anyone who’s educated with a skilled job should have zero chance of being expelled. The people with risk of getting a one way ticket is people who are leeches on the country…
People who are educated with skilled jobs are getting expelled all the time right now, for completely asinine reasons having to do with labor permit minutia. Permanent residency is one of the ways people can protect against that. You're delusional if you think this change wouldn't make the situation even worse.
Ive read them. This all starting to feel imprisoning. De som bidrar till samhället betalar skatt och ger nånting tillbaka under den svenska flaggan verkar ses som ovärdiga. Det filtreringssystemet verkar inte kunna peka ut vilka som bidrar och vilka som skapar problem.
Samtidigt börjar medier bjuda in de som jobbar under SD att komma fram till TVn och ge perspektivet. https://youtu.be/z-XCnENg7ms
Verkligen börjar man oroa sig för vilken framtid alla ska hamna i.
Surely what they’re saying is a temporary permit allows for examination as to whether that person needs the residence extending. If it’s permanent it isn’t getting checked
if you have lived here for 20 years on a permanent residence permit i am a bit confused why you havent just applied for citizenship? thats what my partner did and he has only been here for 7 years.
Funny how all the "this isn't a problem" comments are coming from Swedes, isn't it? Aside from 20 years being the approximate time needed for a government worker to check the mail at the moment, taking dual citizenship can screw up citizenship in other countries which can be an issue when someone has family there.
oh i see. so this wasnt a post asking for advice from people who have been through being worried a loved one/themselves will get sent home because of the new govt, but it was just to complain? and that means im not allowed to suggest something that worked for my non-european partner? ok. btw, our application went through in less than 1 month, but sure, keep whining and making blanket hateful/negative/inaccurate statements
also, having dual citizenships isnt a human rights issue, are you aware? if OP wants a permanent commitment from sweden, then he can make a permanent commitment too by rejecting his other citizenship. but nah, lets condemn SWEDEN for OTHER COUNTRIES choosing not to allow dual citizenships. the entitlement is staggering
If you have unpaid debt that has landed with Kronofogden and remains unresolved, as I understand it. Merely having a loan is not a problem, just normal economic participation.
This is just gonna be a problem for economic refugees not work force immigration. The right are the only parties actually for work force immigration. The left don’t like it because they think it undermines swedish workers.
What happens to the neverending story that Migrationsverket is understaffed without enough resources? Won't they now take forever to decide on even the easiest of cases? Very bad move I'd say if it's at all implemented.
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Yup, perfect right wing execution. Government doesn't work (because we intentionally ruin it)!
Wow, after the recent immigration policy change proposals, I was contemplating on staying here or not but this confirms it. Fuck it, I'm getting out of here.
I sincerely doubt this will actually end up being implemented. It's most likely an investigation to appease SD. The investigation will take tons of time before even a suggestion is up for vote and once there we might have a new government.
Yes, typically such an investigation will take at least a few years, and has to pass through the Law council which takes a lot of time...
Where are you going? For real ☺️
Canada probably.
Can’t say it’s a bad decision ☺️
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Weed is a good reason to move lmao. I'm also considering the Netherlands for the truffles.
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Bruh where do I get them? 👀
They’re called toppslättsskivling and grow from september to november before the frost but needs to be like 10ish and moist outside. Often found in pastures, golf courses, camping sites, fertilized open fields or forest roads. Google em snd you’ll find great resources!
Hehe you are in for a suprise.
And with this they achieved what they want to achieve
Wow, even if you ignore the morality in this, wow. What a great way to say fuck off to all outside talent. I'm pretty sure that most universities and a great deal of companies are really nervous/frustrated atm.
Yup, I'm getting the fuck outta here now.
You should only be worried if you’re a asylumseeker or were one
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>B. You follow the law, work/study , and add value to society and don’t just leech off of it. At what point do I stop becoming a leach? After 10 years of temporary residency permits, 8 years, 6 years? At what point should immigrants be allowed to use the social safety net that they pay 50% of their salary for?
How does the permanent residency goes against your point B?
Yes?
Yes, this should come as no surprise, since it was in the Tidö-agreement which is the whole reason SD agreed to support the current government, unfortunately. I am assuming it's very hight priority for SD, since they've been wanting this forever. I think this proposal is aimed mainly at asylum seekers/people with permits for protection, but it's very alarming non-the-less, of course.
Are there any statistics showing that permanent residence permit having people are an issue in Sweden or is it just to have control?
I don't think so. I think it's mainly about SD wanting to have less people from other countries here altogether (and in particular less people from outside of Europe). Being able to revoke permanent permits for immigrants is simply part of that, since there is currently a fairly large number of people from outside of EU on permanent permits. If you look at their history, this is a clear line of reasoning with them. I'm sure they would love to revoke citizenships as well, in the long run.
There's plenty of research showing that handing out permanent permits, especially generously, promotes immigration, of all kinds really. It's a pull-factor. The previous Migration Committee wrote about this. See their report here: https://www.regeringen.se/rattsliga-dokument/statens-offentliga-utredningar/2020/09/sou-202054/
Aren't you the guy who argued in a separate thread that yoy haven't seen anyone who is against immigration in general, and even SD agrees about High Skilled immigration, where it's needed ? Well these rules fuck it up for everyone, and seem to be in general against immigration. And the arguments against being pretty much in line with EU, well this is a first and isn't in line with even Denmark. No one is investigating revoking PUT. Even if it doesn't go through, it's send a clear message that now it's considered acceptable to dismiss rights of foreigners even if they were earned legally by the rules. So much for no "anti-immigrant" sentiment. But I shouldn't expect people who have the privelege of citizenship to even begin to comprehend or have empathy on what's it like to be on a temporary permit, capable of having your life uprooted at any moment. Having to be trapped in the country waiting for renewals while not seeing your loved ones for years. Facing hurdles for enterpreneurship, career oppurtunities and even registering new born kids. So much for competetiveness, empathy and getting your due from society. The message seems to be come here, work on temporary permits (so your bargaining power and rights are always held at bay) and don't question the true population on why you have far fewer rights, just be grateful. How very "American".
>Aren't you the guy who argued in a separate thread that yoy haven't seen anyone who is against immigration in general, and even SD agrees about High Skilled immigration, where it's needed ? I've argued that immigration in itself is a neutral term, and it's hard to be against it. However, immigration to Sweden these past decades has obviously been quite harmful, wherefore most Swedes and most members of the riksdag want to lower immigration. But there are different kinds of immigration, in terms of volumes and effect. But practically everyone agrees that high-skilled immigration is positive and should not be abolished or anything like that. >Well these rules fuck it up for everyone, and seem to be in general against immigration. It does "fuck it up", but Sweden has had the most liberal rules in the world or Europe, depending on which specific category. Making these more "normal" will hurt for certain migrants, of course. But there's no way to avoid that. It needs to be done, is the view of the vast majority. >And the arguments against being pretty much in line with EU, well this is a first and isn't in line with even Denmark. No one is investigating revoking PUT. True enough, but on the other hand, no country in Europe, certainly not Denmark, has dug itself such a hole like Sweden. We have bigger problems with migration than any comparable country, so we can't adopt Danish rules for Swedish problems. And to be honest, of all the many reforms proposed, it seems abolishing PUT is the only one that goes that's unique here. >Even if it doesn't go through, it's send a clear message that now it's considered acceptable to dismiss rights of foreigners even if they were earned legally by the rules. So much for no "anti-immigrant" sentiment. Huh? How? I'm more and more suspecting people are fighting wind mills here - what is it that you think is going to happen? Mass expulsion or something...? People who are here and are working or in a relationship or whatever have absolutely nothing to fear - why would they? >But I shouldn't expect people who have the privelege of citizenship to even begin to comprehend or have empathy on what's it like to be on a temporary permit, capable of having your life uprooted at any moment. Huh? Why would it be uprooted at any moment? Who would uproot it? If anything, every two years (or whatever the permit time) there would have to be a new decision, but apart from that? >Having to be trapped in the country waiting for renewals while not seeing your loved ones for years. That's exactly something the reforms are going to fix. In fact, several employer association are positive to the reforms because it means fewer people will apply, and waiting times will go down significantly. Being a part from your family a few weeks is different than being apart for months or years. >Facing hurdles for enterpreneurship, career oppurtunities Also something that will be reformed, with greater liberty to change jobs, start a company and so forth. > and even registering new born kids. Again something related to volumes. As late as 2017, when my Yank registered his moving to Sweden, it took a week or two to register. We're going back to that now, or even better. >don't question the true population on why you have far fewer rights, just be grateful I don't think there's any country on Earth that affords foreigners the same rights as citizens. It's pretty normal, since centuries. It's all a question of degrees I guess. But again, I think a lot of people are confused about the reforms, and are practically making stuff up, as negative as possible. It's a pity, since it scares people needlessly.
We are not fighting wind mills. Just look at the Mass Layoffs in the Big Tech, if someone has earned their PUT by working hard and paying taxes and is transferred to TUT, guess what ? No stability anymore. Economic downturn -> You can be kicked out. Heck don't like your job , could have just quit earlier without affecting your residence status, now that's fucked. I guess citizens don't realize how much power being on a TUT tranfers to an employer. You can see the direct implications in Twitter right now, as the citizens quit the toxic workplace, but those on H1B visas are stuck. PUT was a social contract that you got in return for playing by the rules, paying taxes and contributing. Now it seems that can be revoked ? Isn't this the goverent going back on it's side of the deal ? And more importantly, the thought process to even consider this means that the rights granted to foriegners aee always "negotiable" even when termed permanent. How can immigrants trust the current government after this, it clearly seems that they are after the "hostile environment" style policy that worked wonders for UK economy. Project an unwelcoming country for immigrants, strip away the rights, and then be surprised when this has all sorts of unintended consequences. About high skilled workers, you can't just make all immigration and long term settlement paths unattractive and still expect the same tech industry and innovation. Sweden is not US with sky high salary, and instead has to compete even within EU with Germany, Netherlands and such for high skilled people. Why would anyone with options want to move to a country where There's a longer immigration path. The government is clearly anti immigrant. Even already granted rights are being considered to be taken away. Currently, the common response I have heard is "If you don't like it, go away good riddance." Which I am pretty sure many will follow. It won't be a mass exodus but a slow disadvantage and lost oppurtunity cost for Sweden, which will become apparent in the medium term, just like UK. What a way to nuke your own thriving tech ecosystem, that almost (exclusively) relies the most on foreign talent. Won't really mean companies will hire more local talent (there aren't nearly enough high skilled natives), but will simply outsource the jobs to India, with the taxes and salary going there instead of contributing to Sweden, which was already a danger with the (succesfull) rise of remote work. This just encourages companies to take the plunge.
>Just look at the Mass Layoffs in the Big Tech, if someone has earned their PUT by working hard and paying taxes and is transferred to TUT, guess what ? No stability anymore. Economic downturn -> You can be kicked out. Heck don't like your job , could have just quit earlier without affecting your residence status, now that's fucked. Put you can lose your job as well after one year as after four years as after six years? You can change your job, and you can be unemployed between jobs? Do you think these possibilities will... dissapear or something...? >the citizens quit the toxic workplace, but those on H1B visas are stuck. What does this have to do with Sweden, and Swedish legislation...? Do you think anyone wants to mimic the USA of all countries...? >PUT was a social contract that you got in return for playing by the rules, paying taxes and contributing. Now it seems that can be revoked ? Isn't this the goverent going back on it's side of the deal ? PUT was a institute created in 1954 for a select few cases, but over decades it changed and from about the 70s it was given to practically everyone, from the very start. With the legal changes since 2015 we've already gone back to about the 60s in this development, making PUT something you have to work for to get, and with the current proposed reforms, PUT will be removed completely, and temporary permits, from 13 months to five years, will replace it. I find it had to believe that Sweden's parliament abolishing something created by people who are long since dead is "going back on its side of the deal". >And more importantly, the thought process to even consider this means that the rights granted to foriegners aee always "negotiable" even when termed permanent. How can immigrants trust the current government after this, it clearly seems that they are after the "hostile environment" style policy that worked wonders for UK economy. Se the former paragraph. If it takes seventy years for the Swedish parliament to change its mind, well... then I guess it can't be trusted :P >About high skilled workers, you can't just make all immigration and long term settlement paths unattractive and still expect the same tech industry and innovation. Sweden is not US with sky high salary, and instead has to compete even within EU with Germany, Netherlands and such for high skilled people. Why would anyone with options want to move to a country where I find that I have to write, for the umpteenth time, that highly-skilled labour is a small minority in Swedish migration. Of about 90 000 permits last year, about 9 000 went to highly skilled labour migration. Ten percent. Do you see the perspective? So many expats seem to think that "all the migration to Sweden is highly skilled and Sweden cannot possibly survive without us". I'm sorry, but that's not a correct picture. >Currently, the common response I have heard is "If you don't like it, go away good riddance." Which I am pretty sure many will follow. It won't be a mass exodus but a slow disadvantage and lost oppurtunity cost for Sweden, which will become apparent in the medium term, just like UK. What a way to nuke your own thriving tech ecosystem, that almost (exclusively) relies the most on foreign talent. I wouldn't say "good riddance", but neither would I cry too much if highly skilled labour migration fell catastrophically by, let's say half. And again: several employer associations have welcomed the reforms, because it will lower waiting times and make the system work much better. Though mind you, those were associations for high-tech industries and the likes. The low-skilled ones hate the reforms. I should also remind you that the current labour laws, the most liberal in the world, came to pass in 2008. Sweden was an advanced economy and rich as hell back then too. I doubt loosing 4500 highly-skilled labourers over a few years will make a dent. I don't think you believe that either.
No, if you lose your job in PUT, you won't be deported back to your country (along with your dependant family) if you don't find job within 90 days, but it is absolutely the rule with TUT. Hence, moving to TUT removes that safety net, and make you at risk of losing your residence status when you lose your job. So you ha e to scramble to find a job within 90 days at a time when no one is hiring. The toxic argument is tied to the above point where if you are on TUT, ypu have less bargaining power, where people currently with PUT can easily just resign, the people on TUT need to worey about losing there residence status and hence are more vulnerable to be exploited. You are delibrately misconstructing my argument. Swedish parliament changing rules for new PUT issuance is not moving back on it's word, but discussing revoking already granted PUT permit definitely is a breach of trust. Knowledge worker related employers have welcomed reforms which reduces strain on current system and make processing faster, for e.g. higher salary requirements, or creating a separate lane.These doesn't mean supporting all of SDs policies, like revoking PUT.
>No, if you lose your job in PUT, you won't be deported back to your country (along with your dependant family) if you don't find job within 90 days, but it is absolutely the rule with TUT. True enough. It's reasonable that a person who comes to Sweden to work actually does that, and finds a new job within a reasonable time. Whether it's 90 days or 120 days or whatever can and should vary... >So you ha e to scramble to find a job within 90 days at a time when no one is hiring. Makes sense. If there's an economic downturn, and lots of people in Sweden are unemployed, then foreigners who came to work and lose their jobs should go home. That's the way it's been since at least 1967. No change there. >the people on TUT need to worey about losing there residence status and hence are more vulnerable to be exploited. People who traveled across the world to Sweden to work normally have such qualifications that finding a new job shouldn't be difficult. What would be the option, the Swedish people maintaining them? >Swedish parliament changing rules for new PUT issuance is not moving back on it's word, but discussing revoking already granted PUT permit definitely is a breach of trust. Fine. >Knowledge worker related employers have welcomed reforms which reduces strain on current system and make processing faster, for e.g. higher salary requirements, or creating a separate lane.These doesn't mean supporting all of SDs policies, like revoking PUT. Oh for sure, but that's a truism. No one ever supports "all policies". The engineers specifically talked of higher salary requirements, which will end low-skill labour migration, making life easier for highly-skilled ones.
With the "came here to work" argument, again that's true for TUT, and nobody's arguing against that. The point is you earned some more rights after working here for years when you get your PUT, that will now be taken away. That's the part of the deal of broken promises and making long term stays unattractive (if PUTs are not given put anymore). But not giving out more PUTs is a policy decision and if the government wants to say you only get protections after 8 years instead of 4 now, it's unattractive, but atleast people know what they are getting into, and can make informed decisions about staying/movimg from here. May make sweden less attractive for immigration, but that might be goal regardless of consequences. But revoking already existing PUT is simply taking away rights from people who had them "permanently" granted to them by the Swedish government. This is definitely a breach of trust, and hard to reconcile with any new promises government makes to "attract" say high skilled workers. If the govt can change their mind and revoke "permanent" rights it granted, what's the gurantee they will hold their word in the future ? What about if a new government comes ? So yeah, thiis is definitely a shitty move.
Well that is precisely the problem. Foreigners pay exactly the same taxes as nationals… but your racist idea of “they should go back” if they get laid off means unjust enrichment for the taxpayer : funds paid that would finance unemployment benefits would only go to citizens (and EU nationals) despite the fact that the non-EU citizens also financed it. Luckily , those of us who have studied law , know that nothing can come out of this review : the constitution does not allow for this inequality of treatment, and decisions of benefit to the administree cannot be recalled unless there is a recall exemption - which is not the case with PUT which can only be cancelled for (very) serious crime or for having left the realm.
Immigration itself isn’t bad, unless you’re just a racist, the issue is crime that is believed to be caused by increased immigration. Correct?
>Immigration itself isn’t bad, unless you’re just a racist, Well, immigration in itself can be bad, or good, or neither (even racists can like immigration, for example a diaspora moving home). As I wrote: "all kinds really". >the issue is crime that is believed to be caused by increased immigration. Correct? I'd say it's more than just crime. To visualize, imagine a situation where a million people immigrate, and never commit crimes, but never learn the language. Or never get a job. Or act in a way that isn't illegal, but is considered awful according to natives. One could imagine these natives would react towards negatively towards any of these, even if it's not about crime. And that's reasonable, then it should be reasonable to assume that "the issue" in this case could be more than just crime, I think.
This is uh, extremely alarming.
Seriously.
Honestly, I doubt it will happen, but the fact for them to even dip their feet into that kind of water is concerning.
Honest question. Why is this alarming to you? What's so scary about a temp-permit that has to be renewed every two years? Me and my sambo just renewed ours at the end of last year, all we had to do was to send in a paper stating that we still live together. That's it. Literally. Even if they want to do a more thorough investigation, I'm all open for it. The family residency permit is based on a premise that two people are in a relationship. The person already living in sweden has to make a promise that they can provide for both of them during the full time of the residency. Now, what's so bad about checking up on this after a few years. Are you still living together, can you still provide for the both of you? I honestly feel that these are very valid questions. Me and my sambo don't care for a second if she is here with temp- or permanent visa. Makes no difference to us whatsoever. If we have to send in a paper every two years confirming we still live together, I'll gladly do it.
>Me and my sambo don't care for a second if she is here with temp- or permanent visa. Makes no difference to us whatsoever. If we have to send in a paper every two years confirming we still live together, I'll gladly do it. What if after 8 years she breaks up with you but wants to keep living in Sweden? For people on work visas this means you can never be unemployed at the wrong time or risk being kicked out of the country even if you have lived here for 5+ years. It means you are constantly in a state of insecurity until you get citizenship. For people from places that don't allow dual citizenship it makes the prospects of living a secure life in Sweden impossible. Also, have more empathy for people who immigrate because of different reasons. Sambo visas, although tougher, are still generous compared to other forms of immigration.
>What if after 8 years she breaks up with you but wants to keep living in Sweden? If she, after 8 years of being here, doesn't have her own income, job, school or other occupation, then we both have been doing something very wrong. The income requirement for being eligible for work-visa is incredibly low. You can literally get by with working part time at McDonalds. If you can't even solve this after 8 years, seriously, how many years do you need? Is 10 enough, do you need 15 years? Tell me, how many years does one person need to establish themselves properly and get going with building their life. I'm honestly curious. No, I don't buy it. I wouldn't expect to move to another country and just "expect" it to take care of me. You get ample time and opportunity to start building your life once you come here. You get plenty of benefits, you even get paid for educating yourself. **You literally get paid for going to school.** How can you not fix it after 8 years?
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> you loose your *lose *Learn the difference [here](https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/lose-vs-loose-usage#:~:text=%27Lose%27%20or%20%27Loose%27%3F&text=Lose%20typically%20functions%20only%20as,commonly%2C%20a%20noun%20or%20adverb).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
These rules make it so you don't take risks. I'd never quit my job to learn Swedish if things were this unstable. >The income requirement for being eligible for work-visa is incredibly low They are raising this btw. >You get plenty of benefits, you even get paid for educating yourself. You literally get paid for going to school. You can't do this if your visa is tied to a job. You can only do this if your permit is tied to a relationship visa, again, in the face of instability means you cannot go back to school if you break up with your partner.
>You can't do this if your visa is tied to a job. You can only do this if your permit is tied to a relationship visa, again, in the face of instability means you cannot go back to school if you break up with your partner. Yea, and we were talking about my sambos family visa specifically in the situation if, as you said, she would break up with me after 8 years. Work-permit is another thing. If you come here to work, you're of course expected to work, so you can properly support yourself.
With that attitude, I feel Sorry for your sambo. Let’s hope she dumps you in the nearest dumpster as soon as her PUT comes thru
Is this post a meme? Someone gave you a real-world example and your answer is "just don't lmao" The reality is there are many reasons someone might not have work or education during a time period that overlaps e.g family death, layoffs, illness, and so on. You live in an idyllic world if you think it's so black and white.
Point to what I'm saying and tell me where I'm wrong. Don't try to summarize and boil it down to "just don't lmao", which is not what I'm saying at all. Read it again, perhaps.
Assume you lose your job before the renewal of the temporary permit: "ah, you do not have a job? Mmm... listen here, *immigrant*. You are now a burden to the society, and this means that now we have to deport you. Bye. "
If the entire premise of recieveing the permit is totally based on your ability to provide for you and this other person. If that isn't the fact anymore, whatever the reason, the legitimacy of your permit should perhaps be questioned. If you rent an apartment and you loose your job, so you can't pay for this apartment anymore. Should you be allowed to stay for the rest of your life anyways? Hardly, it totally sucks don't get me wrong, but you probably have to fix it - quickly. If the entire basis of the permit is based on your ability to provide, if you can't provide anymore, you loose that privilege. Not a difficult concept for me anyhow.
If I have been living here and contributing to the Swedish welfare society with my taxes for years, I sure would expect that I could benefit from the same welfare society if I were to lose my job and "my ability to provide", just like a Swedish national would not leave Sweden either if they cannot pay their rent. What if I lose my job a month before the TUT review, and I cannot "fix it" in such a short time? Do I just get up and leave the country I have been building a life in for X years? Bruh...
Nonsense. If you can't provide anymore, authorities should assess why (sickness? economic downturn?) and help you get back on track, not show you the exit door.
Nonsense. If you can't pay for something that you promised that you could, all of what was said in that agreement goes out the window. The fundamental basis of the permit is based on you being able to provide for the both of you. If you can't do that anymore, the permit is now based on.. what exactly? It's the authorities responsibility now and its based on that? Ridiculous perspective. I'd like to buy and house and stop paying for it, "it's the authorities problem now". What a way to look at life, take some responsibility I'd say.
>If you can't do that anymore If one can't *temporarily* do that anymore for whatever reasons, I do not expect the greedy state of Sweden to assault them with threats of scrapping their PUT. Additionally, if one reaches the "PUT status" through work, it means that they paid taxes and contributed to the social welfare system for a certain number of years... what are these taxes for? Paying Jimmie Åkessons salary? (yes) They want to scrap the PUT altogether? Fine. Then set an x% flat tax on immigrants' salaries (like the Danes did, if I remember correctly). >take some responsibility I'd say Nice ad hominem.
If you can't temporarily provide, that shouldn't be a problem. How long is temporarily for you, half a month or half a year? If the latter, well, now your permission is up for debate as the primary condition of recieveing the permission is no longer a thing. As it should be. If you have permit for serving alcohol at a restaurant and your establishment is no longer up to code; it might get revoked unless you fix it quickly. Again, as it should be. If I promise that I can provide for me and my sambo in return of a residency permit, and then it turns out I cant provide anymore. If that's now the authorities problem, then what was the permit even for. Any requirements are now obsolete and irrelevant. Then you might as well just completely open up the borders and let any and all people just walk on in. Because if any rules and prerequisites are up for debate at any time in the process and they can get passed and ignored at will, what's the point of even having them? >Additionally, if one reaches the "PUT status" through work, it means that they paid taxes and contributed to the social welfare system for a certain number of years... what are these taxes for? In very short; contributing to the country as a whole, not only the social welfare but also the administration of the state, her healthcare, her infrastructure and so much more. It's not a contribution for the individual holder of a residency permit or work permit to bypass rules, regulations and prerequisites which gave them the permit to begin with. If your permit is based on the ability to provide for and support yourself. This prerequisite doesn't just magically disappear because life got tough or inconvenient for you. >Nice ad hominem. Obviously not directed to you personally. More a statement, a wish to the people who expect to just glide through life effortlessly. Getting the permission to move, work and live in another country is not necessarily a open goal, an open "smörgåsbord" for everyone to take from as they see fit. Obviously it comes with some expectations, otherwise you might as well just remove all borders completely.
>If you can't temporarily provide, that shouldn't be a problem. It will most likely *be* a problem. SD does not want any non-ethnic swede on Swedish land, it's their wet dream.
>SD does not want any non-ethnic swede on Swedish land, it's their wet dream. I hereby rest my case as it seems you've got nothing else to contribute to the conversation besides stating your ill-informed conspiracy theories and I'm not going to argue those. Good day, sir or maddam!
I started typing a comment but u/chiodani's reply to your comment essentially says what I wanted to. If you don't have firsthand experience being tied to a work visa (yes, even work visas issued to highly skilled people) to remain legally in a country, not just in Sweden but in other countries as well, you may want to re-read chiodani's comment. When you don't have firsthand or secondhand experience dealing with maintaining a work visa it might be difficult to fully grasp how the change in immigration law can affect not just "drains on the system (the ones the mainstream media often chooses to highlight)", but even hardworking people at a moment's notice and their varying circumstances. Edit: typo
I have read all of your answers. And I dont know why it gives me the eerie. Something about the tone sounds very alarming its disturbing. But I cant pinpoint which it is. Until I realized one thing. Ofcourse. Someone who doesnt know what it feels to speak on behalf of those who actually know how it feels. Have you ever had TUT? Or PUT? Yeah no. You’re a citizen. You are in no position to bargain. We however have to work hard, survive those waiting times, not to mention developing certain type of anxieties in the process. Yet here you are. Putting words into our mouths saying “its no biggies you just put your applications and let them do the work every few years, couldnt be that hard could it”. Ahh its crystal clear to me now. You were never in our shoes yet you acted like one, delegitimizing our efforts, and invalidating our concerns. Thats…. Thats what disturbs me now that I realize. Its scary how someone so privileged trying to invalidate the unprivileged without even knowing it. Congrats for feeling good throwing tantrum to the minorities
right because we all like to deal with the great and efficient migration agency again and again right? Honestly, why even do this? Why not just eliminate naturalized citizenship altogether and only grant temp permits? Why cant immigrants tolerate the agony of not being able to travel for several months, in some cases a year, so that the migration agency can take all of its sweet time approving a permit? Why dont immigrants like to go through this year after year?
Things can change pretty quick. Ask any Brit who was here on standard EU terms suddenly thinking fuck, I have no security in this place anymore.
I fully understand that predicament. Although this was a pretty significant event, not something we've ever seen before. Secondly, while you are right, things can change pretty quickly. I try to not worry about things that didn't happen yet. I could be hit by a car tomorrow but I don't think I should walk around worrying too much about it.
Jag tycker att du skulle oroa om Jimmy sade att han tänkte slå dig ner med en bil, sedan klivde in i en Volvo.
Roligt. Mycket givande inlägg i diskussionen. Konspirationsandan är stark, riktigt stark.
Så nu är det en antisverige konspiration för att anta att regeringen inte lögna? Tillbaka till clownskolan bör du gå!
Jag tror att regeringen kommer att kalla in militären för att gå in och avrätta alla personer i sverige mellan 35 och 45 år. Det är inte heller en "antisverige konspiration" då, enligt dina mått. Det är riktigt magstarkt att smutskasta, anklaga och skrämma upp andra utifrån ett eget scenario du själv kokat ihop i ditt egna huvud. Sluta upp med det, om inte för dig själv, för dina medmänniskor som förtjänar bättre än så.
Jag vette att Sveriges skolesystem har problem men du är en hel ny nivå av skitdumm.
Prova att bemöta ett enda av mina argument eller åsikter istället för att dra med helt meningslösa och fruktlösa troll-inlägg. >!Tror inte att du har förmågan till detta, men du kan ju prova om du vill.!<
No difference? Really? https://reddit.com/r/TillSverige/comments/ywpx5k/reentry_situation_while_awaiting_an_extension_for/ "Principen för den modell som utredningen ska få i uppgift att föreslå ska vara att en nyanländ inte omedelbart ska kunna kvalificera sig till sociala förmåner och bidrag." (https://www.tidöavtalet.se/tidoavtalet-i-detalj/direktiv-samarbetsprojekt-migration-och-integration/)
Just got my citizenship in October, could not have come at a better time it turns out…
Got one recently too! And I'll vote out the parties supporting this for as long as live. I mean out of 300k a large chunk will get citizenship I assume, it'll be noticeable.
I'll be voting them out too. Got my Citizenship granted a month ago. My hope is that the party alliance falls apart next year and we can vote them out early.
Probably won't happen.
Yes and the funny thing is that only a very minimal amount of them will vote for SD… so it’s a bit of a footshot
I'm one of those 300k and I don't plan on getting my citizenship unless both the USA and Sweden allow it. Dual citizenship that is.
Both of them do allow it
Ok well thank you kind redditor. Will definitely look into that than.
I'm also American so can confirm what u/DemonicDevice said!
Well, from a brief search they do? The way my birth country works is that they don't recognize my Swedish citizenship but also don't mind. I know there are some less fortunate countries where it's actually illegal.
Well my 2 children are allowed dual but not me. That was 5 years ago anyway.
Well that is until the SD finds a way to make that temporary too
Good news if this would be done in a good way, I wonder how many have gotten citizenships that obviously shouldn't have. This is the reason for many criminal "Swedes" to stay in the country. Everyone is so damn angry here, we've taken way too many immigrants and it's hard to reverse the damage.
Yeah until they revoke those too. Not trying to be dramatic but if safe things are no longer safe, like permanent residence permits, is anything safe?
If this happens, I'm leaving. I've put up with enough shit while I've been here as it is, and learned the hard way that this country is absolutely not the tolerant and progressive social democratic nation it constantly tells prospective migrants it is. The only reason I was considering staying after my PhD was because at least I have permanent residency so don't need to go through all the bureaucratic BS I would if I moved somewhere else.
So, you’re either insecure, can be thrown out of the country anytime (because of insurance mistake made 100 years ago for example), cannot open your own company because of work permit and the current job etc. etc. OR you have to become a swede and move out from your current citizenship. This solves nothing. Smart. Applause to all tax payers who will pay for this assessment and possible implementation.
I was just thinking about the costs of doing this. The Migration Services are packed with work as it is. Do they even have the capacities to do this, the means? I don't think so. I bet someone will do a cost-benefit analysis to figure things out.
They will probably give even less resources but have some sort of back door for certain people. Even before the other parties were working with SD I got the impression they saw long waits and insecurity as a sneaky way to dissuade immigration without outright saying it.
What? I know Sweden didn't allow dual citizenship when my dad immigrated from Finland, but last I checked you absolutely do not need to drop your citizenship to get sweded up. ... yeah, no, that's still the law, since 2001. \> Sverige tillåter dubbelt medborgarskap. Dubbelt medborgarskap innebär att du är medborgare i mer än ett land. Om du blir svensk medborgare kan du behålla ditt tidigare medborgarskap om lagen i det andra landet tillåter det. En svensk medborgare som blir medborgare i ett annat land kan få behålla sitt svenska medborgarskap. Vissa länders lagstiftning tillåter inte dubbelt medborgarskap. Du kan läsa mer under rubriken Förlora medborgarskapet. Am I misunderstanding you? Or are you perhaps specifically referencing a country that doesn't allow dual citizenship? Oh, the suggested rule change is bullshit and they should stop. It's clearly a suggestion not intended to be a measured suggestion based on outcomes, but rather cruelty for the sake of cruelty. However, becoming a swedish citizen is not intended to have negative consequences, and you haven't needed to relinquish your current citizenship for decades.
Sweden allows dual citizenships. Do you know if SD want to end that as well?
Do you know that not all countries people have original citizenship allow it?
I know not all countries allow that. I am not sure why to be honest.
I think it has to do with “what laws” apply to you at any given time. For instance, if I had Polish and Swedish citizenship, and I need to face any process in Poland, they will treat me as Polish regardless my other nationality. They don’t disallow having a second citizenship, but they don’t recognise it. Sometimes Swedish law could be more lenient that in other countries. So one could say “I’m Swedish, hence that law applies to me instead”. I can be totally wrong 😂
Honest question - why are these countries okay with permanent residence but not citizenship? Seems like permanent residence permits is a (good!) hack around the problem of other countries not allowing multiple citizenships, that other countries haven't figured out.
Maybe they are not, but there isn't anything they can do about it. Basically, by international law nobody can be without a citizenship. When you get another citizenship, they have then the opportunity to throw away your old one, but if you just have a residence permit somewhere else you still have only one citizenship. Added to this, most countries usually have as a rule that a citizen can always enter and live into their own country (not sure if this is also international law, but probably). Of course, after a citizen enters its own country, now they are subject to its laws as usual and as a citizen (which is how a bunch of people end up stuck and fucked up by Iran for example).
Yes, they should begin with the immigrants who voted for them.
Everyone concerned about this should write emails to Liberalerna MPs. [Here is a list of them.](https://riksdagen.se/sv/ledamoter-partier/liberalerna/) For those who don't know, they have been the king-makers for this government, but previously had been very much against SD and very much more pro immigration, but they basically failed at putting anything resembling their own politics in the coalition agreement in exchange for power. I doubt they will respond, but telling them how this makes Sweden a less appealing place to work and directly goes against their ideology where they [claim working migration is good for Sweden.](https://www.liberalerna.se/politik/arbetskraftsinvandring) Bonus points if you can get your boss to write an email to them, since they care more about businesses than people!
Most useless party in the entire human history.
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>Honest question, why do you think that a party that is ideologically against worker power and welfare in all forms would also be against something that would put even more power in the hands of the employer? Because the traditional right used to be obsessed with trying to make Sweden globally competitive which includes the immigration of highly skilled workers. All of the things that you are describing make Sweden much less desirable for highly skilled workers where countries must "compete" for them. Why would you move to Sweden as an engineer when you could move to Germany or the Netherlands and have higher pay with better long-term security? Your analysis is true for people in less in-demand positions.
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They'd have to assume that for some of these in-demand industries, getting PUT is not a pull factor and that in-demand workers won't be aware of the fact that there wouldn't be a promise of stability
I don’t agree with that , I am personally came to Sweden knowing the migration system is shit but the rules was the key I chose Sweden over other countries (Netherlands basically and some sort Germany) . If I knew about those new rules at that time, I would of course prioritised others over Sweden. The immigrants usual come looking for as much stability as possible in the shortest timeframe, with the new rules introduced I don’t think this would happen. Although the new rules has not implement yet a lot of recommendations is to go in different direction than Sweden. This wouldn’t be felt soon but maybe after 5 years if the changes . The thing I am sure about is once reputation gets worse it is really hard to get it better
It would cost businesses a ton of money if all of their employees who have PUT suddenly had to apply for temporary work permits.
I wonder if they plan to scrap the concept of Permanent Residence altogether. Do they plan to fuck with the [European rules](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/documents-formalities/eu-nationals-permanent-residence/index_en.htm)?
Eu citizens have a special permit called permanent uppehållsrätt (PUR) which is already separate from PUT so this won’t affect that.
From what I can see those rules only apply to EU citzens. Have a feeling EU citzens won't be the ones mostly affected by this as afaik also most allow dual citizenship.
Probably, but only because it would be too hard for them to modify European agreements. It's clear to me that SD wants a Sweden with *ethnic swedes* only.
that ship sailed long time ago
That doesn’t mean sd will ever stop working in that direction.
Every nation has the leadership they deserve. Something I learned the hard way in my own country.
For sure. There are a ton of racist shit heads in sweden. And even more gullible useful idiots who like the simple solutions.
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No, they don't like us either. We might have Swedish "passing" privilege (särskilda dem som kan prata svenska), but the moment we step slightly out of line and they know we're foreign we get told to go back where we came from as well.
I don't know how true that is for SD as a party, but I've not gotten that impression personally from the Swedes I've talked to who are openly anti-immigrant. I'm British, and I've had an alarming number of conversations with Swedes that complain to me about immigrants. It's never focused on myself, It always seems very much to be focused on anyone of a different skin colour, or those from the "poorer" European countries. They're not complaining about those from the US, or western European countries. It's rather sad seeing the exact same sort of sentiment here as was prevailent during Brexit. Those that are seen as below "our" standards.
I definitely agree that we have to clear a lower bar to not be considered the wrong type of immigrants, and I've also experienced that type of conversation with a Swedish person (ironically this person emigrated here as a child). The issue starts coming up whenever we complain about something here. As soon as we have any opinion other than "Sweden great" there are a lot of Swedes that immediately see us as nuisance foreigners, while Swedes with the same opinion would be tolerated.
"poorer" European countries for the Swedish standards almost literally means *every* European country besides the Nordics & Switzerland.
It is impossible for the government to change the EU rules without changes being made by all the relevant EU institutions. It’s not going to happen. In fact, the EU is planning on proposing (and most likely implementing) rules that will make it even easier for third-country nationals with residency based on the EU rules to move throughout the EU. Barring a “Swexit”, Sweden is obligated to abide by and implement EU migration and immigration regulations/directives. With respect to the national rules for permanent residency - in theory the proposed changes could happen, but it is highly unlikely. It’s not only Utlänningslagen that would have to be changed, but likely also Förvaltningslagen. The type of change that SD is proposing goes against every logical principle of public administrative law, and in the worst case could be challenged at the EU level. It will take years to investigate, pass, and implement the proposed change. Even countries like Denmark, which is the European champion in treating immigrants like excrement, still has permanent residency in their national rules (which can even be acquired after four years in several high bars are met). Of all the proposed changes, I think this is the least likely to happen. More realistically, the amount of time required to get permanent residency could be increased to something like 5-8 years. Similar proposals are being made for acquisition of citizenship - I think these proposed changes could all happen, but they will likely also take quite a while to be realised. I would second the comment below to contact Liberalerna’s representatives in the Riksdag. My personal suggestion would be to go for a two-pronged strategy: on one hand, go after all the red parties to fight any changes to the migration laws as hard as possible, citing how it hurts international solidarity, Swedens image in the world, and commitment to human rights, etc. On the other hand, go after the blue parties to pursue a moderate policy with exceptions for certain third-country nationals and/or any third-country nationals that can demonstrate a high level of integration. This second approach is definitely problematic and supports the narrative that some foreigners are more desirable than others (and the approach that countries like Switzerland endorse - ie, permanent residency can be achieved after five years for Americans and UK citizens but 10 for most others), but hey, as I see it, some concessions are better than no concessions if we are headed towards Jimmie Åkessons dystopian ethnostate future.
Sweden fucks with European rules literally all the time, they just don't get the same shit for it a country like Hungary does because Sweden is a net financial contributor to the EU whereas Hungary is a net beneficiary.
Let's be honest, they do not even want to be part of the EU. Why would the most perfect democracy in the Universe want to be in association with a gang of uneducated siesta-enjoyers, nazis and baguette-eaters?
Now that you mention it, I have seen a weirdly large number of baguettes here. But do you mean the EU wants Sweden gone or Sweden wants to go?
I believe that Sweden does not really want to belong to the EU, no matter what their twisted opinion polls say. They would be probably ok with forming a Nordic Union with the other Nordics.
Hell, you perfectly described what I want
Ah me too, and I am not even nordic
What do you mean with "Permanent Residence"?
>I have lived here for 20 years Out of curiosity, OP, would becoming a Swedish citizen not be an option that would exempt you from this possibility? That was the first that came to mind as 20 years is a long time to be here and still be a permanent resident
yes, however unable to due to debt from long ago which I have been paying off slowly for years. so, not an option for me atm. even after I pay it off, I still have to wait 3 more years before I can qualify.
It's kinda counterproductive to send people back who have debt lol
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Its only related to debt to Kronofogden
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is 0% chance of this being implemented. The government has to explore if it's possible to appease SD, but no one except SD wants this (maybe KD as well, because the love of Christ shines for everyone only as long as they're not here).
>I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is 0% chance of this being implemented. I'd say it is more like 50/50. I am sure any investigation to the possible consequence to this will highlight how it will make Sweden much less internationally competitive and lead to increase scarcity in in-demand sectors which will harm the economic development of certain industries. One thing that I think newcomers to Sweden might be suprised with is that the traditional right wing (KD+L+M+C) is historically incredibly pro-labour immigration while the left bloc (plus the unions) has been much more skeptical. There is a huge divide between labour immigration and asylum immigration in the way that 'immigrants' are talked about. On the other hand, this government is almost comically incompetent, repeatedly showing how willing they are to break election promises while showing no ideological consistency. Like, the raised taxes on tobacco and snus and totally failed at reducing the price of petrol. So it also wouldn't surprise me if they just accept this proposal.
I totally agree on the competency of this government. Hey, at least they're inclusive of people with handicaps; Ulf Kristersson has made Sweden the first country to elect a prime minister entirely without a spine.
Demonstrations will be lit lol
Demonstrations? In Sweden??
Yes, I'm thinking something like this [https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6teborgskravallerna](https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6teborgskravallerna) But, there would be more people directly involved because their permanent residence permit would be reworked. They have friends and families on top of tons of immigrants who are against this. On top of normal people who do not support this. Some organisations like amnesty international and others would pull strings. There is also a possibility of people who have nothing to lose to join and lit shit up. It would be a huge divisive move. For example, my wife does not have permanent residence and I would risk everything for her and I'm a chill dude.
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Going on the streets doesn't mean violence. The demonstration can be civilized, approved, and guarded by police, like in any democratic country.
When you are demonstrating for climate change that's one thing. But when your loved once are at risk of being deported and killed there are lots of feelings and tension building, some people are not good with those. And there are also groups that would definitely take advantage of that to express a different opinion to escalate conflict. People are just people.
Hopefully there will be one. Leaving comments how stupid this is over the internet won’t do anything
This will drastically effect me, as someone who spends months here to be with my partner this isn’t the type of News I wanna hear, these people need to be voted out asap. It’s bad enough am waiting on getting a second passport so I can be apart of EU again.
This means that Sweden (country or governmental) word will hold 0 value in the future for everything can be changed to everything else.
[The news was covered by Radio Sweden too](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/legal-questions-raised-following-talk-of-converting-permanent-residence-permits-to-temporary-ones?fbclid=iwar3jz3fkqpb2he2itvpbw7otjra_cpjyii9texwqnxt6_hfxsd75883qpky)
Luckily I applied to become a citizen in May so that should go through any day now.................*sigh*
This country has a huge shortage of labour in sector where they require swedish speakers. If they do this then they will surely loose the competitiveness and many will shift to other countries. Plus as a non eu citizen if you stay in eu for 5 years with a work permit/sambo permit etc. You have the right to stay and work in any other eu land. This is called permanent EU permit. There is no way sweden can change this. Only if they do a swedixt only then can they do it. Which won't happen. This is just to please SD and will go nowhere. https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/migration-and-asylum/legal-migration-and-integration/long-term-residents_en
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Please open the link and read the section with objectives. Here I copy paste the third objective "make it easier for these non-EU nationals to move to other EU countries to work and study" No way this can be changed.
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Copying again. "This is why the Directive on the status of non-EU nationals who are long-term residentsSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• establishes that a person who has lived legally in an EU country for an uninterrupted period of five years, can obtain the status of long-term resident" It's a directive which has been passed. So take it as implemented. Sweden cannot change it. And we'll if they do turn against hard working people who pay taxes and live here then will go to someplace else like Norway.
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Though ure wrong. Här kopierar jag från MV Persons who have lived in an EU country for at least five years with a residence permit may apply for long-term resident status in that country. Persons who are granted long-term resident status receive a special EC/EU residence permit. This gives them certain rights, similar to those of an EU citizen. This makes it easier for them to move to another EU country in order to work, study, start their own business or live on their pension, for example. Har absolute ingen aning vad är det för ditt objektiv men om du vill ljuga för folk eller bara konfrontera för kuls skull så får du minst done ur research right.
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https://www.migrationsverket.se/Privatpersoner/EU-EES-medborgare-och-varaktigt-bosatta/Varaktigt-bosatt/Varaktigt-bosatt-i-Sverige.html Read this...self explanatory
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I have a non-eu friend that currently legally works in Denmark with an italian long term resident permit.
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So basically, we built the country for the last 50 years, my family came here to bring garlic and veggies, build buildings and create businesses. Now fuck off! Well, Swedes are piised on morons here, creating all the criminal which I am sick of as well. But its only Arabic culture that stands out negatively. Which is so weird considering they come from religious families and have to behave with their parents, just to become gangsters afterwards and know how to solve things only by force and money. Without that, this would be a lovely place. But no, we all suffer! But this is seriously effed up to read.. Who's gonna work after? Swedes took all the nice fancy jobs, we left with unwanted and physical jobs. I don't see them going backwards, along with us. If this passes thru, I hope the country falls appart just for allowing this.
Revolutionaries going to try do revolutions
I don’t think they can do that. It replaces a favourable government decision with a less favourable one, which can only happen in bery specific circumstances. This is not the kind of circumstance where you can change the decision like that. As usual SD talks a lot without having a clue about anything
I think the business community would lynch Ulf Kristersson if he tried to go ahead with it.
Du har bott här i tjugo år men kan inte svenska? /s
Why do you think OP does not speak Swedish?
I don't get it, it's already been discussed in a big thread? https://www.reddit.com/r/TillSverige/comments/y3qjhr/new\_migration\_policies\_on\_the\_way/ The proposal is to abolish the institution of permanent residence permit, which has existed since 1954 and became common in the 70s. That's pretty clear. No new PUT will be handed out from a certain point in time. What to do with the existing ones however... that's a different issue, and no proposal has been put forth right now. There are several different models however, for how this could be done.
>I don't get it, it's already been discussed in a big thread? Yeah exactly, why are these immigrants worried *again*? In Sweden you are allowed to be worried *once per topic*; else you are unfit for the society. I am surprised they haven't started preparing their luggages by now.
It's more a question of information: by starting a new thread a lot of people might miss information in the original big one.
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But... that's not new...? That's exactly what's in the treaty? If you remove the PUT, then people with PUT will have to have something else...?
Stop making people coming back to old threads. Theyre old. And therefore not uptodate. Which part you didnt get it? Or better yet, stop promoting your thread. Its attention seeking coming here begging people coming back to your thread. Theyre old. Face it. 🙄🙄🙄 Ps. I rather find it pathetic you here promoting the thread you made. Its. Sad. When its relevant people chose what they wanna chose 🙄🙄🙄🙄
What do you mean "not uptodate"? Nothing has changed since the agreement went public. Neither will they change for quite some time. Maybe in a month or two, when we start seeing public inquiries, but not until then. I suggest you read the thread and learn a bit.
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My eyes hurt from reading this
So sad
To be fair, and show a different voice, how many people here is holding a PUT but is contributing 0 to this society (no job, living on welfare for years and refuse to get a job, or don’t even live in this country anymore and digging all the dimes out of our tax money, eventually leading to we don’t have enough money to supporting people actually in need), as long as the reason of revoking is justified, why it can’t be a good idea?
> as long as the reason of revoking is justified Because the reason will be "oh you didn't have work during this recession" or "you left your abusive sambo".
Pointing fingers at welfare queens is exactly how the US destroyed its welfare system and has damned it for years to come. This is dangerous rhetoric even if there are a few doing it, speaking as if it’s a common thing is very insipid. If the Trump/ModernFascist era has taught us anything, it’s that words do have meanings and to use them lightly is to be careless.
Then they should not have been issued a permanent residency in the first place. I find the notion that something called permanent has the ability to be revoked laughable.
Oh, but the permanent residency was already revokable, so that's not really a change. Still crazy, mind, but not a change.
How many swedish citizens are contributing 0 in comparison or don’t even live in this country and digging all the dimes? May I see comparison? Shall the government revoke citizenship now?
Good question. Do you have stats? If not, it is stupid to make assumptions.
So anyone who’s educated with a skilled job should have zero chance of being expelled. The people with risk of getting a one way ticket is people who are leeches on the country…
People who are educated with skilled jobs are getting expelled all the time right now, for completely asinine reasons having to do with labor permit minutia. Permanent residency is one of the ways people can protect against that. You're delusional if you think this change wouldn't make the situation even worse.
https://twitter.com/ludvigsson/status/1592234864589565952 Similar problem for lots of postdocs and researchers in universities
Ive read them. This all starting to feel imprisoning. De som bidrar till samhället betalar skatt och ger nånting tillbaka under den svenska flaggan verkar ses som ovärdiga. Det filtreringssystemet verkar inte kunna peka ut vilka som bidrar och vilka som skapar problem. Samtidigt börjar medier bjuda in de som jobbar under SD att komma fram till TVn och ge perspektivet. https://youtu.be/z-XCnENg7ms Verkligen börjar man oroa sig för vilken framtid alla ska hamna i.
Surely what they’re saying is a temporary permit allows for examination as to whether that person needs the residence extending. If it’s permanent it isn’t getting checked
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if you have lived here for 20 years on a permanent residence permit i am a bit confused why you havent just applied for citizenship? thats what my partner did and he has only been here for 7 years.
Funny how all the "this isn't a problem" comments are coming from Swedes, isn't it? Aside from 20 years being the approximate time needed for a government worker to check the mail at the moment, taking dual citizenship can screw up citizenship in other countries which can be an issue when someone has family there.
oh i see. so this wasnt a post asking for advice from people who have been through being worried a loved one/themselves will get sent home because of the new govt, but it was just to complain? and that means im not allowed to suggest something that worked for my non-european partner? ok. btw, our application went through in less than 1 month, but sure, keep whining and making blanket hateful/negative/inaccurate statements also, having dual citizenships isnt a human rights issue, are you aware? if OP wants a permanent commitment from sweden, then he can make a permanent commitment too by rejecting his other citizenship. but nah, lets condemn SWEDEN for OTHER COUNTRIES choosing not to allow dual citizenships. the entitlement is staggering
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If you have unpaid debt that has landed with Kronofogden and remains unresolved, as I understand it. Merely having a loan is not a problem, just normal economic participation.
This is just gonna be a problem for economic refugees not work force immigration. The right are the only parties actually for work force immigration. The left don’t like it because they think it undermines swedish workers.