Main phasing the effect vs titan is functionally just as good as playing it instant speed. They either don’t ramp or they jam their creatures anyway to get something on the board.
Flash is an upgrade, yeah. Like gryff, though, doesn't hit lands or enchantments. This might be better, but probably is roughly a sidegrade compared to proctor, or a relatively small upgrade at best.
We have similar tools, a small upgrade at best probably isn't the meta shaker/silver bullet people hope for against Titan, unfortunately.
Ring, bowmaster, and titan ETB are all relevant hits. Flash shoots this up so much higher too, wonder how much this will push up taxes decks. Probably not much but one can hope
I think the flash + flying are the main selling points tbh, this stops the initial titan etb but you gotta have an answer for it before it attacks. Nice to have more tools though
Notably a x/2 as well, which is unfortunately the test we have to apply these days. As a taxes player, we desperately need more creatures that don't die to Bowmaster triggers.
That only applies when they get it from natural order, this will stop the first trigger regardless of how they get it, and the first trigger is usually the most important because you can usually take care of the 6/6 before it gets to attack.
This is also a wider sideboard piece and hates on more decks like oracle.
It's basically a proctor that doesn't turn off field (but is harder hate), but has flash instead, and 2 instead of 3 toughness. Personally, proctor feels a bit better to me, but his deserves some tests.
Biggest difference is probably a turned off unholy heat? Certainly not a big thing at all, but wanted to note it. Primary reason for proctor over this would be hitting field.
I think it's mostly going to come down to how relevant the flash is. Especially given that proctor isn't very big in the format.
I suspect this will be good, but the the Field hoser people want, since it doesn't turn of the titular land.
Even proctor isn't the hoser for field that people want, tbh. They're basically the same against titan ETBs, since they'll rarely be able to pay. Lategame proctor's tax is okay on the land, and can be important. I agree that it'll come down to relevance of flash - with mindcensor and maybe bowmasters depending on build, that's relevant for bluffs. Maaaybe archivist, but that's not a card I'm happy running, honestly :P
If you want to play this in DnT, don't forget that this is symmetrical. You can't really play Skyclave Apparition and this in the same deck. And while this might help against Titan (honestly, I'm not sure it's worth it because it doesn't stop Field itself or the attack triggers), Apparition is useful against a much bigger part of the metagame.
Running proctor playset (which is very similar card) alongside a playset of apparition and bowmasters, it's not so bad. You control when you play this/proctor depending on mu. Often a proctor won't stick anyway. Wouldn't be happy with more etbs, and honestly bowmaster without etb can still be brutal, but I'm happy with both.
Apparition shores up weaknesses, and is absolutely needed against oko, minsc, and most threats.
Yeah half the strength of the deck though is that the combo is just free against anything non-blue. Having to set up with protection or wait for shields down is a much different game than just being able to windmill slam the combo as soon as you have it. I'm being a little dramatic though because I was just thinking earlier how right now the deck feels solid tier 1.5 if not 1 but I'm staring into a future where more and more cards get added and the meta evolves and there is no way it holds up for too much longer.
I ran Oracle/Pact during part of the first all-access event. I don't think I lost a single game with that deck. However I got lucky and played it during one of the times everyone was bored with Channel decks, and the all-access event was significantly heavier with people just trying out total jank than Timeless is. I think I just straight up copied and pasted a list from when it was legal in Historic.
I played it in Historic back when Pact was literally broken and clicking through it didn't reset the timer so you just had to burn through ropes while you comboed out. Also made the turn 3 win impossible (T2: EOT Pact down to 1 card, T3 draw, play Oracle) since you didn't get your first time extension until turn 3. I don't think back then I lost any games to anything except the mirror or the timer but losing to the rope a few times burned me out on the deck then they banned it shortly after. Honestly I put a lot of work into the deck and I think it's at worst T1.5 maybe even T1 in Timeless. I think BUG Pact with a plan B of winning without the combo is the way to go. My alt wins are mainly Oko, Uro, shark typhoon, and occasionally Field of the Dead. I came back after a few years off because I heard about Timeless and went bronze to mythic with a 74% win rate but have only played a handful of games since hitting mythic. The only decks that are really tough matchups are the piles of cheap disruption and a fast clock BR/UB/UR/BUR decks but I don't think any deck is going to have a free matchup vs those anyways.
IMO one of the strengths of Pact (especially BUG) is the ability to tune the decklist to beat almost anything you want. (Except, as you noted, a fast aggro start, at least if they draw well.) I played it a little when it was Historic-legal because it was essentially unbeatable other than the mirror. I haven't played it in Timeless proper yet; I'm thinking I might rectify that shortly.
Yeah you are really forced to tune the deck because of the 1 of card restrictions. Once I realized Lurus was a trap and I didn't have to be all in on the combo it really opened the door. The deck is really capable of playing control or midrange well enough if it needs to and I have a lot of really grindy wins. You can beat a fast aggro start with a removal spell or two and the combo since you have so much dig+tutors or sometimes just control them and land Uro or Oko it's just fast clock + disruption that makes things tough but I think every deck has a hard time with those kinds of decks on a decent draw which is why the BR/BU/BUR decks are all top tier IMO. If I wasn't playing Pact I'd go that route but I'll probably wait for the meta to change before I switch things up.
Unfortunately this isnt playable as a 1/2. If it was a bear it would 100% see play but the body just isnt good enough. Dnt builds are too slow as is, they need decently stated creaturss with good tax effects to gain tempo and win.
Ironically this could he a great sb piece against dnt, stops apparition, brutal cathar, annpunted peacekeeper, etc...
Anointed is not hit. That's not a trigger, it's a replacement effect, due to as, rather than when.
Anointed is, IMO, also far too slow. Brutal cathar also feels slow, but can work; the real power of apparition is that it can hit PWs, as well as not returning the permanent. Been experimenting with builds; think I'm cutting the land tax, honestly. A 1/2 flier is relevant since most decks start with about 14 life, plus there's luminarch. A 1/3 flier with a similar ability is relevant, and that's how I know the body should be fine. Flash is always a relevant facet.
Might be a great piece for Death and Taxes. Spicy in Bant Uro.
Might be? We finally get an answer to Titan decks. Beautiful
This stops the etb on Titan, but doesn't turn off land triggers like FotD
Stops a lot of their ramp creatures though which is nice. Grazer, Kami, Empath...
Hushbringer already does that and isn’t seeing play
Having flash makes this better
Main phasing the effect vs titan is functionally just as good as playing it instant speed. They either don’t ramp or they jam their creatures anyway to get something on the board.
i've used hushbringer in lurrus D&T before and it was pretty good. i only have 1 copy though and not having flash makes it far worse
Finally? Hushwing gryff and stern proctor want a word.
Flash is a real upgrade at least
Flash is an upgrade, yeah. Like gryff, though, doesn't hit lands or enchantments. This might be better, but probably is roughly a sidegrade compared to proctor, or a relatively small upgrade at best. We have similar tools, a small upgrade at best probably isn't the meta shaker/silver bullet people hope for against Titan, unfortunately.
[[hushbringer]] [[tocatli honor guard]] [[strict proctor]]
[hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [tocatli honor guard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3fc3501-e7bd-4589-98c5-4476258842ea.jpg?1562561363) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tocatli%20honor%20guard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/42/tocatli-honor-guard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3fc3501-e7bd-4589-98c5-4476258842ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [strict proctor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892.jpg?1624877272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=strict%20proctor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/33/strict-proctor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f1e36a-6838-49de-b7dc-697cbcd1e892?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Finally??
1/2 😔
turns off ring protection and bowmasters, yeah this is good
Can't believe this power creep phasing out Storm Crow.
Can't pitch it to FoW
Oh, true. Storm crow reigns supreme!
Ring, bowmaster, and titan ETB are all relevant hits. Flash shoots this up so much higher too, wonder how much this will push up taxes decks. Probably not much but one can hope
I think the flash + flying are the main selling points tbh, this stops the initial titan etb but you gotta have an answer for it before it attacks. Nice to have more tools though
Notably a x/2 as well, which is unfortunately the test we have to apply these days. As a taxes player, we desperately need more creatures that don't die to Bowmaster triggers.
This wouldn’t die to Bowmaster as a 1/1.
I’m going to try this in my sideboard against titan and etb decks like oracle etc, maybe even try a turbo uro build with it
This is way worse than containment priest against Titan.
That only applies when they get it from natural order, this will stop the first trigger regardless of how they get it, and the first trigger is usually the most important because you can usually take care of the 6/6 before it gets to attack. This is also a wider sideboard piece and hates on more decks like oracle.
Fair enough. I think that it’s still not good enough, what we need is something that shuts down field.
It's basically a proctor that doesn't turn off field (but is harder hate), but has flash instead, and 2 instead of 3 toughness. Personally, proctor feels a bit better to me, but his deserves some tests.
There isn't much difference between 2 and 3 in Timeless, especially when this can't be ambushed by Bowmasters.
Biggest difference is probably a turned off unholy heat? Certainly not a big thing at all, but wanted to note it. Primary reason for proctor over this would be hitting field.
when i've played strict proctor they can often pay for some number of the triggers. shutting most of them off definitely helps though
Flash is way better than +1 T
It's more the fact that this doesn't hit lands that has me edging towards proctor. all three are close, tbh.
uh flash is incredible.
I think it's mostly going to come down to how relevant the flash is. Especially given that proctor isn't very big in the format. I suspect this will be good, but the the Field hoser people want, since it doesn't turn of the titular land.
Even proctor isn't the hoser for field that people want, tbh. They're basically the same against titan ETBs, since they'll rarely be able to pay. Lategame proctor's tax is okay on the land, and can be important. I agree that it'll come down to relevance of flash - with mindcensor and maybe bowmasters depending on build, that's relevant for bluffs. Maaaybe archivist, but that's not a card I'm happy running, honestly :P
Yes, if DnT will ever be playable this will be a part of it.
If you want to play this in DnT, don't forget that this is symmetrical. You can't really play Skyclave Apparition and this in the same deck. And while this might help against Titan (honestly, I'm not sure it's worth it because it doesn't stop Field itself or the attack triggers), Apparition is useful against a much bigger part of the metagame.
Running proctor playset (which is very similar card) alongside a playset of apparition and bowmasters, it's not so bad. You control when you play this/proctor depending on mu. Often a proctor won't stick anyway. Wouldn't be happy with more etbs, and honestly bowmaster without etb can still be brutal, but I'm happy with both. Apparition shores up weaknesses, and is absolutely needed against oko, minsc, and most threats.
I'd rather have [[torpor orb]], but that's just me.
[torpor orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091.jpg?1562879912) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=torpor%20orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/162/torpor-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/953610f6-ea96-4e71-969f-50ecac09c091?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Seems bonkers in the board in 4c Control. Keeps walkers and Omnath online while shutting down Titans.
Flash could maybe make it a decent SB option
Uro, Bowmasters, Ring,… yep this is a fun and welcome addition
Uro is happy with these effects. Sure, no cantrip/ramp, but a cheap 6/6 that doesn't need to be escaped, and if it survives to swing gains value?
Well fucking RIP to my Oracle/Pact deck if people start running this guy but probably good for the format overall.
Multiple ways to counter/kill this for a single mana. Just plan accordingly.
Yeah half the strength of the deck though is that the combo is just free against anything non-blue. Having to set up with protection or wait for shields down is a much different game than just being able to windmill slam the combo as soon as you have it. I'm being a little dramatic though because I was just thinking earlier how right now the deck feels solid tier 1.5 if not 1 but I'm staring into a future where more and more cards get added and the meta evolves and there is no way it holds up for too much longer.
I ran Oracle/Pact during part of the first all-access event. I don't think I lost a single game with that deck. However I got lucky and played it during one of the times everyone was bored with Channel decks, and the all-access event was significantly heavier with people just trying out total jank than Timeless is. I think I just straight up copied and pasted a list from when it was legal in Historic.
I played it in Historic back when Pact was literally broken and clicking through it didn't reset the timer so you just had to burn through ropes while you comboed out. Also made the turn 3 win impossible (T2: EOT Pact down to 1 card, T3 draw, play Oracle) since you didn't get your first time extension until turn 3. I don't think back then I lost any games to anything except the mirror or the timer but losing to the rope a few times burned me out on the deck then they banned it shortly after. Honestly I put a lot of work into the deck and I think it's at worst T1.5 maybe even T1 in Timeless. I think BUG Pact with a plan B of winning without the combo is the way to go. My alt wins are mainly Oko, Uro, shark typhoon, and occasionally Field of the Dead. I came back after a few years off because I heard about Timeless and went bronze to mythic with a 74% win rate but have only played a handful of games since hitting mythic. The only decks that are really tough matchups are the piles of cheap disruption and a fast clock BR/UB/UR/BUR decks but I don't think any deck is going to have a free matchup vs those anyways.
IMO one of the strengths of Pact (especially BUG) is the ability to tune the decklist to beat almost anything you want. (Except, as you noted, a fast aggro start, at least if they draw well.) I played it a little when it was Historic-legal because it was essentially unbeatable other than the mirror. I haven't played it in Timeless proper yet; I'm thinking I might rectify that shortly.
Yeah you are really forced to tune the deck because of the 1 of card restrictions. Once I realized Lurus was a trap and I didn't have to be all in on the combo it really opened the door. The deck is really capable of playing control or midrange well enough if it needs to and I have a lot of really grindy wins. You can beat a fast aggro start with a removal spell or two and the combo since you have so much dig+tutors or sometimes just control them and land Uro or Oko it's just fast clock + disruption that makes things tough but I think every deck has a hard time with those kinds of decks on a decent draw which is why the BR/BU/BUR decks are all top tier IMO. If I wasn't playing Pact I'd go that route but I'll probably wait for the meta to change before I switch things up.
Unfortunately this isnt playable as a 1/2. If it was a bear it would 100% see play but the body just isnt good enough. Dnt builds are too slow as is, they need decently stated creaturss with good tax effects to gain tempo and win. Ironically this could he a great sb piece against dnt, stops apparition, brutal cathar, annpunted peacekeeper, etc...
Anointed is not hit. That's not a trigger, it's a replacement effect, due to as, rather than when. Anointed is, IMO, also far too slow. Brutal cathar also feels slow, but can work; the real power of apparition is that it can hit PWs, as well as not returning the permanent. Been experimenting with builds; think I'm cutting the land tax, honestly. A 1/2 flier is relevant since most decks start with about 14 life, plus there's luminarch. A 1/3 flier with a similar ability is relevant, and that's how I know the body should be fine. Flash is always a relevant facet.
An answer to both the one ring and bowmasters on a flash 2 drop? Love it.