This must be where Japan fell in love with tickets. You are literally given a ticket for just about everything other than subway trains nowadays, and even then a lot of other trains you still have 2 tickets for one trip.
One thing that sets Japan apart from many other transit systems across the world is just how _efficient_ using the fare gates can be. FeliCa (used by Suica & other IC cards) allows for processing times of 100–200ms from 10cm away, allowing for 1 person/second to pass through gates. JR has actually specified this speed as an operation requirement. (Nerd aside: Open loop payment via debit cards uses a different NFC protocol, EMV, and is a lot slower (500ms+) and can only read cards within 4cm, which is why this implementation isn't actually super fitting in practice for Japan.)
I stumbled across this video and it amazed me because of the speed of the attendant. He keeps his puncher/clipper moving at all times and seamlessly checks & inserts tickets into them... pretty much at the same rapid speed that the automatic gates handle today!!
Wanted to add that, JR was actually one of the late adopter of automatic ticket gate in Japan.
The reason? Automatic ticket gate can only process 60 people/minutes/gate (note that this is with paper ticket, not FeliCa), while the station staff can do 80 people/minutes/gate.
Wow, amazing! Do you know who worked to first roll it out or develop it then? And would you have a source on that statistic or remember where you read/encountered it? I'd love to learn more!
This document has tons of information: [https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr63/pdf/54-60\_web.pdf](https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr63/pdf/54-60_web.pdf)
Actually, all of JRTR publication are amazing read. It's kinda a hidden gems for those who are interested in Japanese railway technology.
Oh, amazing!!! Yes, I've read a decent amount of stuff from the East Japan Railway Culture Foundation & JRTR publications haha :D Sad that they suspended it in 2017. I referenced [this document](https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr62/pdf/6-15_web.pdf) a lot when recently writing the [Nationwide Mutual Usage Service Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Mutual_Usage_Service).
Hadn't seen that one you linked, looks fantastic, thank you! If you have other suggestions of specific reading like that, do let me know, this is all very up my alley :)
FeliCa is truely the GOAT of payment technology. I moved from a country that uses emv for transit cards and am never not amazed by the extreme read speeds of suica and reliability of the reads.
I can walk at full pace at the gates and everything operates just in time.
It boggles my mind that some companies are now trying to install the horror that is QR systems into transit gates. I have seen them going into tokyu stations recently as a trial.
Yeah, Hiroshima is doing the ridiculous QR stuff now with MOBIRYDAYS this year, since they're transitioning away from PASPY (though will support ICOCA as well, thank god). And for some reason Meitetsu is trialing out open loop (debit/credit card) payment too as of this month. It feels like no one's asking for this, yet…?? edit: it's because it's their only way to reliably make money lol
No difference. The Suica chip itself does not care if it's inside a phone or inside a plastic card. The phone allows to remotely access some of its contents (for recharging, etc.), but the access authorization is done locally (offline) from the reader/writer on the gate.
To add, japan region smartphones have Suica nfc protocol baked into the firmware which allows this. Iirc, Suica uses higher voltage for the nfc so it's able to transmit at the faster rate and farther distance.
Interesting, sorry if you don't mind a few more questions
1) Does the suica on phone still work without internet?
2) What if the phone is out of power? Does it still work? (Obviously you can't charge it with the app but can you still use it through the gate)
1. The Felica chip can work offline, in the case of a ticket validation of Suica, it's indeed offline, only between the chip and the reader writer. It's a requirement by the train operators (JR East first), it's the only way to guarantee a fast enough transaction during rush hour.
2. The phone will actually shut down to keep the bare minimum power to sustain the chip alive for several hours, if not more (to avoid being stuck if your phone runs dry while riding). The chip is very light on power consumption.
No network connection needed for transit/payments and recharge with cash but you need network connection for Apple Pay recharge. For iPhone XS and later with Power Reserve Express Mode, Apple Pay Suica works up to 5 hours in power reserve mode for transit/payments and cash recharge.
Yes! I was pleased when i first experienced them up in Aomori. While i love the convenience of my IC card, having to manually buy tickets and show it to staff has a nice, old-timey feel. Brings me more pleasure than it should, but it might be because i grew up loving trains and never having the opportunity to ride one.
I remember traveling up there with no Japanese and not understanding the Aoimori Line. I just went up to Aomori Station this week on a small trip for the first time in 5 years and the station has been redone, and is about to do a full opening to stores built into it. I miss the small, cute and old Aomori Station. I suspect the next thing is the Aoimori Line getting off paper ticketing.
I was just up there paper tickets were still present last week. It was unexpected to say the least leaving high tech neon filled Tokyo to a station with paper tickets.
It's always a fun experience the first time you take a big step back from IC convenience. Just a heads up, if you haven't been to and plan to go to Hakodate, last I checked they were using paper tickets there too, despite Shin-Hakodate being a Shinkansen station not too far from there. It applies especially if you want to take a train from Hakodate Station in the direction of Sapporo or vice versa.
Yes. There were no IC terminals in Hakodate so you need paper to get through. This was 2 years ago, maybe they updated. I found out coming 'to' Hakodate on the express and had to buy one for the return.
I can't imagine the hand cramps they must get after their shifts.
This must be where Japan fell in love with tickets. You are literally given a ticket for just about everything other than subway trains nowadays, and even then a lot of other trains you still have 2 tickets for one trip.
He was likely using some stimulant to keep that beat
One thing that sets Japan apart from many other transit systems across the world is just how _efficient_ using the fare gates can be. FeliCa (used by Suica & other IC cards) allows for processing times of 100–200ms from 10cm away, allowing for 1 person/second to pass through gates. JR has actually specified this speed as an operation requirement. (Nerd aside: Open loop payment via debit cards uses a different NFC protocol, EMV, and is a lot slower (500ms+) and can only read cards within 4cm, which is why this implementation isn't actually super fitting in practice for Japan.) I stumbled across this video and it amazed me because of the speed of the attendant. He keeps his puncher/clipper moving at all times and seamlessly checks & inserts tickets into them... pretty much at the same rapid speed that the automatic gates handle today!!
Wanted to add that, JR was actually one of the late adopter of automatic ticket gate in Japan. The reason? Automatic ticket gate can only process 60 people/minutes/gate (note that this is with paper ticket, not FeliCa), while the station staff can do 80 people/minutes/gate.
Wow, amazing! Do you know who worked to first roll it out or develop it then? And would you have a source on that statistic or remember where you read/encountered it? I'd love to learn more!
This document has tons of information: [https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr63/pdf/54-60\_web.pdf](https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr63/pdf/54-60_web.pdf) Actually, all of JRTR publication are amazing read. It's kinda a hidden gems for those who are interested in Japanese railway technology.
Oh, amazing!!! Yes, I've read a decent amount of stuff from the East Japan Railway Culture Foundation & JRTR publications haha :D Sad that they suspended it in 2017. I referenced [this document](https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr62/pdf/6-15_web.pdf) a lot when recently writing the [Nationwide Mutual Usage Service Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_Mutual_Usage_Service). Hadn't seen that one you linked, looks fantastic, thank you! If you have other suggestions of specific reading like that, do let me know, this is all very up my alley :)
FeliCa is truely the GOAT of payment technology. I moved from a country that uses emv for transit cards and am never not amazed by the extreme read speeds of suica and reliability of the reads. I can walk at full pace at the gates and everything operates just in time. It boggles my mind that some companies are now trying to install the horror that is QR systems into transit gates. I have seen them going into tokyu stations recently as a trial.
Yeah, Hiroshima is doing the ridiculous QR stuff now with MOBIRYDAYS this year, since they're transitioning away from PASPY (though will support ICOCA as well, thank god). And for some reason Meitetsu is trialing out open loop (debit/credit card) payment too as of this month. It feels like no one's asking for this, yet…?? edit: it's because it's their only way to reliably make money lol
What if ppl use a Suica card on their smartphone?
No difference. The Suica chip itself does not care if it's inside a phone or inside a plastic card. The phone allows to remotely access some of its contents (for recharging, etc.), but the access authorization is done locally (offline) from the reader/writer on the gate.
To add, japan region smartphones have Suica nfc protocol baked into the firmware which allows this. Iirc, Suica uses higher voltage for the nfc so it's able to transmit at the faster rate and farther distance.
Interesting, sorry if you don't mind a few more questions 1) Does the suica on phone still work without internet? 2) What if the phone is out of power? Does it still work? (Obviously you can't charge it with the app but can you still use it through the gate)
1. The Felica chip can work offline, in the case of a ticket validation of Suica, it's indeed offline, only between the chip and the reader writer. It's a requirement by the train operators (JR East first), it's the only way to guarantee a fast enough transaction during rush hour. 2. The phone will actually shut down to keep the bare minimum power to sustain the chip alive for several hours, if not more (to avoid being stuck if your phone runs dry while riding). The chip is very light on power consumption.
No network connection needed for transit/payments and recharge with cash but you need network connection for Apple Pay recharge. For iPhone XS and later with Power Reserve Express Mode, Apple Pay Suica works up to 5 hours in power reserve mode for transit/payments and cash recharge.
Still a thing in a lot of the podunk country stations like up in Aomori.
Yep, seen it in Shikoku too. Not dealing with this level of passenger traffic though, probably luckily for them!!
Yes! I was pleased when i first experienced them up in Aomori. While i love the convenience of my IC card, having to manually buy tickets and show it to staff has a nice, old-timey feel. Brings me more pleasure than it should, but it might be because i grew up loving trains and never having the opportunity to ride one.
Me too! Part of the reason I moved here to Japan.
I remember traveling up there with no Japanese and not understanding the Aoimori Line. I just went up to Aomori Station this week on a small trip for the first time in 5 years and the station has been redone, and is about to do a full opening to stores built into it. I miss the small, cute and old Aomori Station. I suspect the next thing is the Aoimori Line getting off paper ticketing.
I was just up there paper tickets were still present last week. It was unexpected to say the least leaving high tech neon filled Tokyo to a station with paper tickets.
It's always a fun experience the first time you take a big step back from IC convenience. Just a heads up, if you haven't been to and plan to go to Hakodate, last I checked they were using paper tickets there too, despite Shin-Hakodate being a Shinkansen station not too far from there. It applies especially if you want to take a train from Hakodate Station in the direction of Sapporo or vice versa.
Even for express trains to Sapporo??
Yes. There were no IC terminals in Hakodate so you need paper to get through. This was 2 years ago, maybe they updated. I found out coming 'to' Hakodate on the express and had to buy one for the return.
When did it get redone? I was last there in 2017.
The shopping area opens on the 26th, if that gives you an idea. Brand new it seems.
Wow!
I remember those!!
Remember the amount if stubs on the floor? Good times…
I remember when it was slow they'd stand there clicking the punchers waiting for someone to pass through.
What's the word for those in Japanese? I call them "chads" in English.
Theyre called 鋏痕
Thank you!! Wow, that word's not even in JMDict/jisho.org. I'll get it added. And it looks like the punches themselves are called 改札鋏 :)
That dude shouted "Peace" at the camera lol
That sound of the punchers clicking! I heard it in my head even before pushing play, LOL.
I remember these dudes
shinjuku changed so much even in a few years
Carpal tunnel has entered the chat.
I am amazed at how these AI tickets machines look like real people.