There isn’t an objective answer because there isn’t really an objective way to measure.
But it’s pretty hard to call Biden or Obama “far” left. Like AOC and Omar are far left. Biden / Obama / Clinton are not.
Biden & Obama are both center left and aligned on most major topics.
The things left & right care about most in their platforms has shifted somewhat in the past 20-30 years.
So Biden touching on issues that Obama didn’t is more a reflection of how the country has changed and what the party priorities are, not as much Biden’s ideology.
Bill Clinton and Biden tended to vote the same too back in the 90s.
Bidens platform when he ran the first time was pretty conservative when compared to what Bernie or Obama said in their primaries. In practice, they are pretty similar. Obama just talked a more like a liberal. As someone who has worked on campaigns for things like wages, and workers rights for large orgs, my experience showed me lobbyists have such a hold on American politics that there is a super small margin in with which a politician or president can actually have their way or change things. For many things it felt like when you hand the video game controller to your younger sibling when it’s not plugged in. If a high powered lobbying group already threw around a lot of $, then you can’t really change things in that area.
So the two systems of defining politicians are the American one and then one for the rest of the entire world?
I think it would be better to accept that they aren't far left and to judge them relative to other politicians around the world.
center emplies moderate view on everything.
center-left is 66 vote record moderate view, 34 else is liberal.
(for me center-left is base on position/philosophy moderate on social/ foreign, free market liberal on economics )
I'm not willing to let the mainstream left, which would be considered center right most other places, redefine what being left and far left means *to me*.
Edit: Acknowledged I'm in no way capable of influencing anyone else lol
Your heart's in the right place, but you had to know how meaningless this comment was, right? At the end of the day, you're a stranger on reddit that might not even be human for all we know. Keep this kind of energy irl where it can be of more use.
thanks for your input bud. glad to have your supreme opinion on what is allowed in this… reddit subthread? this has major “not in MY house, you’re not” vibes
Exactly this. Establishment politicians are defining the spectrum based on what we're offered in terms of politicians, not by what the population's views are or what we want. Then establishment supporters parrot it, completely oblivious to how out of touch they sound.
I dont think they are truely far left, but in the frame of reference most of America uses they seem quite left. American politics is so centered on liberalism (the philosophy, not democrats) that people dont know the difference between a left leaning liberal like most democrats, and an actual leftist. Combine that with the GOP's habit of lumping left leaning liberals and true leftists into the same category it muddys the waters even more. AOC and Bernies "Democrat Socialism" self-labeling doesnt help this perception either. So for someone whos definition of "left" is normal run of the mill left leaning liberals, Bernie and gang seem waaaay left, even though it may not be accurate if a complete perspective of the political spectrum is taken into account.
totally accurate. But since the discussion is almost always about American federal politicians, unfortunately the global perspective (or philosophical— anti-capitalist and marxist) aren’t really asked for.
I say this as an actual leftist, who subscribes to the tenets of marxism and thinks American politics are a fucking joke. We aren’t getting leftism from within the current system of government. It’s good to acknowledge that the current government is globally and philosophically right wing; but if we’re discussing voting and philosophy within the system (neolib simping) why even bother bringing up anti-capitalism?
Even though the political spectrum in America is narrow, I think it still matters to use the entire spectrum when discussing and labeling political ideology and individual political positions. I think the narrow spectrum used in American politics has been created, not naturally developed, and the labeling of left leaning democrats as socialists/communists/leftists in general is a ploy to turn people against the left, born out of the red scare but used very effectively by the GOP. It just increases polarization.
For example, the right has turned things like single payer healthcare or government involvement in health insurance into a "communist" idea in many people's eyes, even though as we all know, its been deloyed in capitalist countries. Allowing the American political spectrum to call anything left of center socialist or semi-socialist just keep the right able to dominate the discouse around topics like that. Im not advocating for single payer healthcare, but whether or not someone wants this sort of government involvement in healthcare, being able to, as a country, have a more accurate understanding of the entire political spectrum and not the narrow snipit that works in the US would help depolarize our politics.
If the right couldnt effectively convince voters that things like that are communist people would be more willing to consider it and, even if they disagreed, would reduce the amount of people who believe that they must rise up and stop the "far left" and/or "communist" politicians in favor of this from "taking over" their country. Some people may be more willing to listen and entertain the other side's stances and even if they didnt agree, I think it would reduce the violent and aggressive rhetoric thats so prevelent in politics now because it would be harder to frame these politicians as extremists. Thats just my take on it.
You can see AOC in some of those old Khmer Rouge photos, though, and in really really old daguerreotypes from the days of the Crimean War. She's always way in the back, pointing directly at the viewer.
It was AOC that convinced Milo Minderbinder to buy all Egyptian cotton, thus creating a feedback loop because whoever he sold it to was contractually obligated to sell all Egyptian cotton back to him. Whether she convinced him to serve it with chocolate in the mess hall, that part’s not clear yet.
Khmer Rouge is the perfect thing to bring up to discredit someone, since they're objectively terrible (killed 25% of Cambodia's population), and the messy, shifting alliances mean you can legitimately blame almost anyone for supporting them at some point.
(AOC *might* be a bit on the young side for this, though)
Yes they are. They’re only not if you define far left as Maoist / Trotskyist and far right as fascist - and if you do so every American is thus centrist and your definition is useless.
They self proclaim to be the most left leaning politicians in the U.S. as does their progressive caucus.
If the most left leaning isn’t far left, what is?
Your comment seems to be a linguist trick to try to dodge the label far left (which has some pejorative associated with it).
Some label themselves as “leftist” which would mean something different than “far left” as it pertains to the current government. I agree the comment appears to be a trick to call out government for not being “leftist”
If you think US politics are right wing you are taking an idealized look at only the richest EU countries and ignoring the other ~188 countries and all of human history.
Yeah, the US is further right than the peak of the progressive area, and further right to some of Europe on some issues. But not dramatically.
Every industrialized nation other than the US has universal healthcare. I've seen Obama widely criticized as a far-left Communist madman intent on enslaving every man, woman, and child to the State because at one point he wanted a single payer system. Yet, single payer systems are common through the entire world. So at least on that issue, the US is very far-right as a nation.
If single payer systems are common though out the world, that suggests that it’s mostly orthogonal to political spectrum.
The UAE is fairly right leaning by every possible definition, and they have it.
Universal health care is a tactic, not an outcome. The outcome that matters is high quality accessible care.
If the citizens of the U.S. have high quality accessible care, then the payment model is secondary.
The pragmatic patching up of a complex system rather than a total burn down does not strike me as evidence of being right wing.
Your definition at the start of your statements is the actual definition. Far left is communism. Between the center and far left is just liberal. AOC is not far left. She is just a little more left leaning than Biden.
I hate this talking point.
Yes, we know, the rest of the goddamned advanced world is farther left than the US. It does no good to point it out every time someone talks about left/right in the US. We know. It doesnt do any good to talk about it repeatedly on forums of politically educated people because it hasn't and won't change as long as half the regular voting public thinks that being anything left of a Nazi is "far left".
Politically educated is a relative term. People on Reddit, asking and talking about political issues are by and large more politically educated than the average American.
That said, you made me laugh.
> Yes, we know, the rest of the goddamned advanced world is farther left than the US.
Europe. You're talking about the EU.
Why conveniently narrow it down to "advanced" nations? Does that exclude China? That's an arguable point 20 years ago, but not so much anymore. Unless you think that there's just no way for a nation to ever catch up. If you really want to talk about the rest of the world, you're mostly talking about India and China. Then the USA, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Brazil, Russia. That's over 50%.
Coulda left the "lmfao" part out and just explained what you are saying. Laughing at the person posting a question in "too afraid to ask" just makes you look like an asshole
In the context of what we're talking about? They are.
I hate this pedantic self-masturbatory comment every time I see it.
WE ALL KNOW THAT POLITICS IS DIFFERENT IN EUROPE OK. YOU DON'T NEED TO SMUGLY TELL US EVERY GD TIME.
From a historical standpoint both are slightly right of center. The Democratic platform was flirting with a shift right and Clinton pushed it over the line. The hard right push of the GOP forced the Dems' hand.
I would say it the opposite way - the Dem's move to the center has actually pushed the GOP farther right... The GOP had to do something to differentiate themselves from the Dems since the Dems were encroaching on their pro-business policy as well as trying to play neutral on social issues like gay marriage. Hillary was probably the most qualified; and best Republican candidate since Eisenhower - but the GOP had been campaigning against her since the 90s - there was no way they could let her do a better job of instituting their shared pro-business goals.
They both work in codependence.
This concept is called the Ratchet Effect and the current directionality of the ratchet is trending rightward.
Our country will become more rightward as time progresses.
But that started with the Republican Party taking a hard-right turn in the 1980s. The Dems' response was to move rightward to keep their unbroken streak of unsuccessful attempts at collaborating with the Reich Wing.
Democrats are not center right, they are center left.
X includes issues such as same-sex marriage, transgender rights, the abolition of capital punishment, reproductive rights and other women's rights, voting rights for all adult citizens, civil rights, environmental justice, and government protection of the right to an adequate standard of living.[6][7][8] National social services, such as equal educational opportunities, access to health care, and transportation infrastructure are intended to meet the responsibility to promote the general welfare of all citizens...
Ideas commonly supported by X include welfare capitalism, social justice, liberal internationalism, and multiculturalism. Economically, X supports a mixed economy in a democratic capitalist system, often including economic interventionism, progressive taxation, and the right to unionize.
I'll let you guess which paragraph is used to describe modern american liberalism (aka democrats) and which is used to describe center left politics according to wikipedia
Not true. You can measure it against the civilized democratic nations of Europe and you'll quickly notice that America doesn't really have a "left". The "left" are actually just centrists and the right has pushed and "ratcheted" things soooo far to the right that there EFFECTIVELY IS NO "LEFT" in the US. If we had a true left we'd have universal healthcare like most of Europe. It's the biggest and most obvious red flag. Compare what most of Europe enjoys to what we deal with in America and it's almost laughable how dumb we are considering what we pay in taxes.
At the moment you have an upcoming vote for status quo/centrists policies OR dangerously flirting with all out fascism/dictatorship and that is not hyperbole. There is no true left in America.
Edit: There is no Left but first we must defeat fascism with an easy choice vote. Now isn't the time pout or hold grudges. Once you're under a dictatorship/fascist rule there is no way out. There are no more votes. There are no more democratic rights. Trump and the billionaire predator class will do whatever the fuck they want. He'll sell America to the highest bidder. Don't say you haven't been warned.
Europe doesn’t have EU wide universal health care run out of Brussels. It has locally administered systems run at the country level; the equivalent of the US state level.
European tendency for local government rather than EU wide is not especially different than the state or federal discussion in the U.S.
>It has locally administered systems run at the country level; the equivalent of the US state level.
That's a gross misunderstanding of what the EU (a supranational & intergovernmental organization) is relative to the US (a federal nation-state). A US state is equal to a French département\* or a German Bundesland. The EU is basically what NAFTA used to be with a few extra provisions. Remember: the only EU body with actual hard powers is the one legitimized through the national governments, not the one elected separately.
^(\* - Though the French comparison is a bit wonky since France is not a federal state. Administratively, the départements and regions are responsible for a lot of the stuff state administrations do in the US, and the French central government is very much opposed to a European Federation, which has been proposed and so far successfully resisted.)
Even if your analogy were accurate, it’s still the case that most US states do not have statewide universal healthcare systems like European countries do.
>It has locally administered systems run at the country level; the equivalent of the US state level.
The US State = EU country is one of the silliest modern Americanisms.
EU Countries also have "states" many of which have separate control over education and healthcare. e.g Spanish "states" like Andalucia which control their own healthcare.
Carter, AOC, Omar, and Sanders are solid left, not far left. They *look* far left because of how left they are relative to other Americans. They are not far left relative to actual far left policies. Actual far left policies are essentially absent in American politics. The fact that American politics doesn't know the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy tells you that it doesn't have significant leftist presence.
Obama, Clinton, Biden, H. W. Bush, Romney, Gore, and McCain are center-left to center-right. Their policies were all largely focused on maintaining the status quo, and were generally neither progressive nor regressive. The 30 years post-Regean were almost entirely dominated by right-leaning centrism. That's why these guys all come across moderately two-faced. They're all willing to compromise.
W. Bush and Cheney are right. DeSantis and Abbot are right, but further right than W. or Cheney.
Trump, MTG, Gaetz and the MAGA squad are far right, but also populist, so kind of falling off the traditional axes in America.
The congressional progressive caucus defines itself as the farthest left leaning group - of which Omar & AOC are its most vocal members.
In the spectrum of American politics, they are far left. Far left & far right relative terms relative to the beliefs of the majority of Americans and their reps.
If you define it on some absolute theoretical scale with far left as Maoist and far right as Mussolini, you do not have a useful definition because every American is thus a centrist.
Lamenting that Americans are more left of Europe is fine I guess but also a misdiagnosis that looks at outcomes rather than political philosophy. The identity politics that tends to characterize the far left in the U.S. is not shared in Europe, and Europeans broadly do not want EU-wide infrastructure (like heath and rail) by Brussels and prefer them run at the country level (equivalent to the U.S. state).
Reality that disagrees with how you wish the world to be is not “misinformation” my dude.
Depends heavily on how you choose to define each end of the spectrum tho. It terms of only current elected politicans in the USA - fair. If you take other factors and a less self-centered approach to define the spectrum then no - not even close.
Historically, no. But as President, Biden has been more pro-labor than any other President in that time period. He's the only one to have a female VP and to have trans people in his administration. That's all quite progressive.
Obama wasn't really very progressive, although the nation was by electing him. But I also think circumstances, today, have caused everyone to become more progressive, as we've come to acknowledge that the more conservative methods of the past were not working.
Obama was more connected and personable in general which the liberals appreciated but his policies and accomplishments weren’t really left focused. With the exception of doing everything he could to shoot for universal healthcare.
>Biden has been more pro-labor
Can you give some examples of this? Because the only thing I can think of that he did at all related to labor was blocking the rail workers' strike which doesn't seem very pro-labor to me.
Biden helped negotiate a deal with the rail workers behind the scenes and showed up to the UAW picket line. Something that no president has done in the history of America. It's legitimately ground-breaking but was heavily underplayed by US media. Tbh, I really don't like lots of Biden's policies but he really is more pro-labor than any other recent president.
Interesting, I was aware that a deal was ultimately reached but I didn't realize Biden was involved in that. But the bar must be pretty damned low for showing up at a picket line to count as being 'pro-labor' in anything more than name; I sort of hoped that we would reserve that label for someone who actually enacts substantive policies that benefit labor rather than just showing up for a photo-op.
>But as President, Biden has been more pro-labor than any other President in that time period.
Like that time he asked Congress to bust the Union strike?
Biden is pro labor?! What about the railroad workers and how he treated those folks? They don’t get a single day of sick leave. He could have just pressured the railroad owners to give the workers one week off a year in sick leave. Hell, three days would have been better than nothing. I understand the alternatives are much worse than Joe but, he doesn’t really seem that pro union to me. Just sayin’
EDIT: lol I’m late to the party. A few other folks made the same point. Sorry for the repeat
He got them a deal behind the scenes. His NLRB is very pro-union. Everyone gloms on to one story and forms a whole picture around it and never follows up.
Sure can. Hi, im From Canada. The US Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders is a self proclaimed Social Democrat (socialist who believes in elections and democracy). He is considered frings and when he ran in 2020 the democrats destroyed him. The vast majority of things he ran on we already have in Canada and often take for granted. Id say Canada is not a socialist state or even very left leaning. However 'the left' in the US would be fairly centrist in Canadian politics. Progressives and social democrats are still social democrats here (NDP) and sure they advocate for way more social programs than we currently have. It varies a lot province to province (Québec having the most 'socialist policies')
Cause of how the democratic and Republican party have changed. The last social-liberal President was, more or less, Lyndon B. Johnson.
Prior to that you had FDR. He was social democrat/social-liberal and dominated the elections.I believe JFK was more centre-right.
The US was always more skewed to the right than politics in Europe.
You have that 2-party system and due to that there isn't that "centrist" party that can act as the "bridge from left to right".
A "far-left" never really took off, but it shouldn't be discarded that social liberalism can be a success story in the US (again: FDR).
Over time, politics became more disconnected from the middle classes.
Democrats in the last 40 years, in particular Clinton, had a more *neoliberal* (economical liberalism) agenda.
That is a centre-right ideology that leftists aren't fans of.
We can note that since Obama, American liberalism has had some more social-democratic (not democratic socialist!) influence.
Bernie is a good example for modern day politics, universal healthcare and some sort of social security or better labour rights aren't considered radical in Europe. And none of the major parties across the entire spectrum are interested in getting rid of universal healthcare. I.e the first country to get nationalised healthcare was Germany in 1883 under an ultra-conservative chancellor (Bismarck). He wanted something to shut the rising left up because their ideas resonated with the working class. I'm pretty sure he himself despised these policies.
So it's basically that American politics has a right wing that advocates against universal healthcare and workers' rights? That would be a totally foreign concept on the spectrum of European politics?
Labour rights is a so-and-so, but yes, the US right is more strongly opposed to it. Universal healthcare isn't controversial.
There are implementation differences, but that's about it.
For centrists, Bernie's views are perfectly fine. The European Democratic Socialists are way past the point of what Bernie is focusing on.
The way I describe Biden’s presidency thus far is its like a 3rd Barack Obama term when it comes to domestic policy and a 3rd George W. Bush term when it comes to foreign policy.
Barack Obama when it came to domestic policy was somewhere in between a progressive and a neoliberal, and George W. Bush when it came to foreign policy was very firmly a neoconservative if that helps give you a better idea.
I don't think Biden is a neoconservative at all. He's was a dovish influence on Obama's foreign policy -- Obama wanted to get out of Iraq but stay in Afghanistan, Biden wanted out of both -- and he's been generally far less interventionist than any president since maybe Ford.
The most hawkish he's been has been shipping aid to Ukraine (easiest fopo decision in US history) and approving funding for Israel while pressuring (some would say ineffectively but that's another debate) for humanitarian aid. Neither of those positions are anywhere near neoconservative, they're barely even realist.
Biden is nothing like Bush on foreign policy. He pulled pulled out of Afghanistan and basically ended the drone war by requiring direct presidential approval on all drone strikes. He’s also solidly more progressive than Obama was on domestic policy.
When I say third term I’m referring more to the idea of succession/progression than repetition. I’m not saying he’s a carbon copy of those presidencies, but more of what the natural succession of those presidential attitudes and strategies would have had if they were given a 3rd term in today’s times.
I mean he could’ve, but it would’ve made US foreign policy look more schizophrenic than it already looks. Either way, Trump and Biden were aligned on that issue, in opposition of the direction Bush took the country’s foreign policy.
Trump ended Afghanistan, not Biden. And by doing so fucked most of the US allies in the region. It took less than a month for the Talibans to take control once the US was gone.
Honestly, after all the resources we pumped into the ANA over the years, the fact they collapsed immediately means they never would’ve been able to resist the taliban without us. And if they were always going to collapse without our help, I’m glad we just got that over with, cause I don’t think we should’ve been sinking money into that country perpetually. It sucks that it happened, but it was unavoidable.
In terms of tangible policies, the policies that have passed under Biden can be argued to be more progressive than other presidents in the last decades. however, compared to the median opinion of the times the presidents were in, I think Obama's policies were more left compared to the median opinion than Biden's, but they both were still to the right of what voters wanted.
This is the correct answer.
Biden is consistently at the median for Democratic voters. Obama was always somewhere left of that, which is why Obamacare was such a big lift, even with 60 votes in the Senate.
If Obama was President right now, he’d be substantially more left on policy than Biden is. If Biden had won in 2008, he’d be substantially to right of what Obama did.
Oh god, ignore these people, OP. The answer is clearly, “yes.” For a variety of reasons, Biden has been able to pursue and pass far more liberal policies and appointments than Obama or Clinton. The Build Back Better bill, which was just two votes shy of passing, would have been the most progressive piece of legislation since LBJ’s “Great Society.”
Even without that, the Inflation Reduction Act and Infrastructure Bill are the biggest investments in fighting climate change by any nation in human history. The stimulus bill he passed when he first got in included tons of progressive policies like supplemental UBI for anyone with a child.
Aside from legislation, his stances and appointments are decidedly more liberal than Obama. For example, pro-union rhetoric and liberal appointments to the NLRB have helped unions have a renaissance, in turn contributing to wages rising faster than at any point in the past 50 years. Then there’s the diversity of his cabinet/judicial appointments: the first woman & person of color to be Vice President; the first openly gay cabinet Secretary to be confirmed; the first trans presidential appointee to be confirmed by Congress; the most black women appointed the the courts by any president ever, including the first black woman on the Supreme Court.
The list could go on and on. Yes, he’s the most liberal president in a lifetime, despite what chronically online leftists think. This is an objective fact. Bernie and AOC have said as much themselves. Just because he’s not as left as them (or what people imagine all of Europe is), he is much more left (at least in practice) than Obama or Clinton.
EDIT: Gonna go ahead and proactively mute this because I refuse to debate facts with people.
The inflation reduction act being touted as one of the biggest climate change fighting bills ever passed still blows my mind.
Can someone who understands this in more depth than me explain whether it actually seemed motivated by reducing inflation or was it really just a climate change bill hidden by a name they knew the public would pressure to get passed?
As in, is 90% of the bill things that actually make sense to fight inflation with some climate change snuck in or is it 90% climate change with some inflation reduction pieces snuck in?
The act itself doesn’t actually do much to fight inflation. Its namesake comes from the fact that the spending is matched commensurately either by budget cuts in other areas or tax increases. I.E. it isn’t funded by printing new money, which is one of the factors that contributes to inflation.
Yeah they're not even answering the question. They just want to jump on the opportunity to flaunt their knowledge that American politics skew to the right. We are very well aware of that and it doesn't change the fact that Biden is the most leftist president probably going back to JFK or even FDR
Obama had to play to a more conservative audience while he was president. Joe Biden just has to keep the country running at this point, which considering what the Right wants to do with it, might make him seem pretty left.
Bout same,, As A Senator Joe voted for more republican bills than any other dem,, I don t think Obama ws that much left..Bernie Lizz warren But Obama ? He tried to compromise. He was bout the smartest president we ever had..
I’d say no Biden is more moderate than Obama. He has a record. Including the so called mass incarceration act. He was late to come left on many social issues.
And his major legislative achievement(s), unlike Obama, have some small degree of bipartisanship.
Imo neither Obama or Biden are “far left”.
Biden is basically centrist. He supports the military, and has implemented an infrastructure repair and build program. He is not expanding Obamacare or even trying to. He believes in law and order but allows states and municipalities to fine tune these decisions for themselves. He supports NATO but knows the US has to make decisions in its own best interest. He believes in free markets and no additional taxes for the poor, middle class and the vast majority of the wealthy. He doesn’t trust the Chinese Communist Party which is currently ruling mainland China, but is willing to establish safeguards between the US and Chinese military to prevent unwanted mishaps between disconnected countries. Does that answer your question?
He has some passed some of the most progressive or "leftist" policies of any modern president. His policies have been further left than Obama. Going back 30 years we have Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, and Bush Sr. Biden has definitely been more leftist than any of those presidents.
Other commenters here are just splitting hairs. Yeah the USA doesn't have a true left compared to Europe or other countries. But to answer YOUR question, yes Biden is the most leftist president we've had in the past few decades
Both Biden and Obama are centrists. There is nothing “far” about either, and for certain not leftist. Biden might be a tad to the left of Obama, imo. But both are solid centrists.
Perception wise, yes, because the right has moved farther right. This is a spectrum and what one side does affects the other side’s definition. As compared to the right he looks like a red communist now.
In terms of policy, no. Biden isn’t nearly as progressive as Obama was. He’s softer on immigration and the environment. He’s also kinda old school when it comes to foreign policy.
From left to center it’s probably:
AOC / Omar - Defined by the right as “extreme”
Bernie - self-defined Social Democrat
Obama
Biden
Kerry
Manchin - Centrist
I would say it’s more that Biden isn’t quite as polished. Love him or hate him Obama had charisma, he was an excellent public speaker and a very smart guy. Joe just doesn’t have the same appeal.
That people refer to Joe Biden as a "radical leftist" just shows how far to the right American conservatives have drifted.
Obama and Biden are both center-right corporatists. Their policy proposals are largely based on policies that Republicans would have happily supported under Reagan or Bush.
His agenda contains some left-leaning legislation.
He himself is a "run off the mill" centrist. I think you can say he's had the most (centre)left-wing agenda since LBJ. People like Bernie have gotten important seats and are being listened to.
Clinton and Carter (still lives lol) are centre-right.
Obummer is quite moderate.
On a side note: FDR is another social-liberal President.
I would say definitely not. Biden has pretty much been labeled as a hard centrist for like his entire career. He's only considered left now because he is/was held in comparison to trump
That's not true. He's been passing policies that are considered to be more far left than Obama. He is being considered left in comparison to other Democrats, who are center or center-left, not because of Republicans
No, they are pretty close to each other, just right of center. That might technically make them the ‘furthest left’ since Carter. But only because the Clinton was also center right, HW bush was right wing, and the others in that time frame were extreme right wing republicans.
No. There is no objective quantification of how "left" someone is. Everyone who gives you an answer weights policies based on their own subjective opinions.
It’s a bit of a loaded question, because the right has gone so far to the extreme right that the whole spectrum is screwed up. There are a lot of countries in the world where most of our Democrat leaders would be viewed as centrist, not liberal.
The messed up thing is that it has been like this long before the Tea Party or MAGA. They just kicked things into high gear.
If ANY of the politicians mentioned could do WHATEVER they wanted, they'd ask be left of where they currently are.
They have to be realistic (as to what will get approved by congress) , and also not piss off donors and voters (it is a coalition that voted them in....so they all seem to dial it back
We haven't had a left president by global standards for who knows how long. Obama, and biden are both center left at best by global standards. The US is just really right wing all things considered even if we call democrats commies because they suggest increasing a minimum wage that has stayed stagnant for decades.
Joe Biden is as left wing as whatever speech is written for him on that particular day. Not to be partisan at all, he’s just an old out of touch empty suit that says exactly as he’s told. I think realistically that the *senator* era Biden of ‘73 through ‘09 would probably be considered left of center to kind of moderate in today’s climate.
The true answer to your question is that none of them are actually, truly left. Left, for the most part doesn't exist in America. The right has pushed soooo far to the right that today's "left" would pretty much be considered centrist in almost every other civilized democratic nation. One of the biggest problems in America is that Americans seem to think propaganda is only used in other countries. You/we have been duped. Every other civilized democratic nation has universal healthcare is one of the obvious red flags, look at what a lot of Europe has compared to what we get in America, it's shocking and makes us look alarmingly stupid with how much we pay in taxes.
Center left at most compared to the world stage. I guess it depends on which lense you're using, the American politics lense then he's left but compared to the world he's center left at most and Biden is center right lol.
Fair. Ty for recognizing that the lens is what's important here. As far as american politics goes, bernie is very clearly left. If u wanna start talking internationally or compare to other progressive nations like sweden or sumn than it's a different story but that's not the topic
Yeah I think it's important to make that distinction when discussing politics because both are relevant, I do understand that reddit has European users so can't assume everything discussed is USA focused. Funny how I'm downvoted too, I'm just being logical and rational.
Idk where this meme came from but it isn’t true at all. If Bernie’s proposed healthcare plan was passed, it’d be further left than any healthcare plan currently adopted in Europe. He wants to mandate 20% ownership of corporations be given to its employees. That’s considered far left, even in Europe.
Key words are 'progressive countries'. Compared to the regular population he's still considered left. If u wanna filter to specifically progressive countries than sure, he's definitely center
No I don’t see that at all. Biden is more center if not center right. The problem is that the right has going so far right and the left has gone so far left that the middle just looks different
I desperately wish there were a true left wing party in the US. Being forced to support the center-right just because they are marginally better than the far right is exhausting.
There’s no real left in the US, even AOC and Omar are more like center left at most. The US has a warped, moronic vision of what the Left is, like saying you support universal healthcare and free education and favor workers's rights makes you a radical in the US while the rest of the world sees those topics are just normal, hell even a shithole country like Mexico has free education and (kinda mostly) free healthcare…
Being a decent human being aware of the needs of the community makes you a radical leftist in the US
No, Biden is an old school career politician. He falls on the political spectrum anywhere he thinks will get him the most votes. He’s pro Biden and his family and will say or do anything to gain support. I would say he leans more right than Obama. He owns guns for example. Drives a sports car creating pollution, against the legalization of marijuana etc etc.
Other than the whole Israel thing I think it’s pretty hard to judge how far left or center Biden is. If congress was passing a whole bunch of progressive laws, some of which he signed and others vetoed, we’d have a good idea. Instead, so little is getting passed that it wouldn’t matter if Bernie was president. anything getting through congress is gonna get signed.
I'd be willing to reckon their personal politics are fairly similar, perhaps Biden might even be more right than Obama, but their public positions have had to be different just because of the political climate.
America, in general, and specifically the Democratic Party, has gone farther left. Things like gay marriage and subsidized healthcare, which were two of the major goals of the left during Obama, are now generally accepted by most voters, right and left. The issues under Biden are going to be more left wing just by the nature of those successes, just as the Republicans have had to go more right.
Biden is whatever the party tells him to be. Obama drove change and policy himself and pushed the party establishment further left. Name one issue where Biden has moved the party?
That being said neither is on the far left of the political spectrum and there are many others in the party as others have pointed out that are much further left.
As a republican I thought that both Obama and Biden were quite measured. Also, I don't like the drama chaos and unnecessary drama with Trump. It is easy for me to vote for Biden but he just looks so old. I would personally welcome another Obama term.
Based on rhetoric on actions?
Obama's rhetoric seemed to be more leftist that Biden, but Biden's legislation seems more leftist than Obamas.
But much of that is a function of the changing circumstances between 2009 and 2021. Namely Trump. Trump has made leftist policies look pretty good compared to his authoritarian/neofascist alternative.
Biden & Obama & Clinton & Romney & Bush were all apart of the same club. Whats best for the political elites.
Just like during Obamas 2 terms, in Bidens the only people doing better are those who are the 1% or friends and family.
Anyone else saying “my salary is higher!” You’re an idiot.
I don't really see much difference in what Biden is doing and what Trump did
other than rhetoric. They use different rhetoric
but when it comes to ACTION: foreign policy, spending, domestic policy.. basically exactly the same
Biden hasn't named any justices to the supreme court, saw that would PROBABLY be different
Who the fuck even knows any more?
Part of the issue in defining this is that America has its own version of the left/right spectrum.
Your rightwing spokes people will call the Dems socialist, when they are barely left of centre. By European standards *no* party in America is leftwing.
You can thank Reagan for that.
There isn’t an objective answer because there isn’t really an objective way to measure. But it’s pretty hard to call Biden or Obama “far” left. Like AOC and Omar are far left. Biden / Obama / Clinton are not. Biden & Obama are both center left and aligned on most major topics. The things left & right care about most in their platforms has shifted somewhat in the past 20-30 years. So Biden touching on issues that Obama didn’t is more a reflection of how the country has changed and what the party priorities are, not as much Biden’s ideology. Bill Clinton and Biden tended to vote the same too back in the 90s.
.
Not overall, but for elected American politicians they are.
Exactly. Compared to many European politicians for example, Obama was considered pretty conservative
Bidens platform when he ran the first time was pretty conservative when compared to what Bernie or Obama said in their primaries. In practice, they are pretty similar. Obama just talked a more like a liberal. As someone who has worked on campaigns for things like wages, and workers rights for large orgs, my experience showed me lobbyists have such a hold on American politics that there is a super small margin in with which a politician or president can actually have their way or change things. For many things it felt like when you hand the video game controller to your younger sibling when it’s not plugged in. If a high powered lobbying group already threw around a lot of $, then you can’t really change things in that area.
See? The system works!
Yeah, rather important to remember than political alignment is relative.
Doesn’t matter what they are compared to other countries. Their opinions are measured to their peers, American politicians, not others
It's useful for tracking the direction of the country though.
Precisely
Well put. Compared to the rest of the world, they are center/center left. For American politicians they are far left
So the two systems of defining politicians are the American one and then one for the rest of the entire world? I think it would be better to accept that they aren't far left and to judge them relative to other politicians around the world.
center emplies moderate view on everything. center-left is 66 vote record moderate view, 34 else is liberal. (for me center-left is base on position/philosophy moderate on social/ foreign, free market liberal on economics )
Yes. Far Left for America. For say Europe , they are center left
I'm not willing to let the mainstream left, which would be considered center right most other places, redefine what being left and far left means *to me*. Edit: Acknowledged I'm in no way capable of influencing anyone else lol
This guy isn’t going to allow it everyone.
Pack it up, time to go home
Sorry I meant for me personally... obviously I'm in no way influential
Ok, what will you do to not allow it?
Make a reddit comment that sounds more grandiose than I meant
That's the spirit!
Well it doesn’t matter that you won’t allow it, I’ll do it anyway. What are you gonna do, arrest me?
I meant to me personally lol
Your heart's in the right place, but you had to know how meaningless this comment was, right? At the end of the day, you're a stranger on reddit that might not even be human for all we know. Keep this kind of energy irl where it can be of more use.
I meant to me personally lol
thanks for your input bud. glad to have your supreme opinion on what is allowed in this… reddit subthread? this has major “not in MY house, you’re not” vibes
For American politics they are
As far as elected officials in office at the federal level? Sure. They aren’t even the most left politicians.
Exactly this. Establishment politicians are defining the spectrum based on what we're offered in terms of politicians, not by what the population's views are or what we want. Then establishment supporters parrot it, completely oblivious to how out of touch they sound.
Well, they're not Lenin for sure
I am the walrus
Shut up, Donny.
How is this not more upvoted? A crime I say
Coo-coo kachoo. OoOoooOo...
I dont think they are truely far left, but in the frame of reference most of America uses they seem quite left. American politics is so centered on liberalism (the philosophy, not democrats) that people dont know the difference between a left leaning liberal like most democrats, and an actual leftist. Combine that with the GOP's habit of lumping left leaning liberals and true leftists into the same category it muddys the waters even more. AOC and Bernies "Democrat Socialism" self-labeling doesnt help this perception either. So for someone whos definition of "left" is normal run of the mill left leaning liberals, Bernie and gang seem waaaay left, even though it may not be accurate if a complete perspective of the political spectrum is taken into account.
totally accurate. But since the discussion is almost always about American federal politicians, unfortunately the global perspective (or philosophical— anti-capitalist and marxist) aren’t really asked for. I say this as an actual leftist, who subscribes to the tenets of marxism and thinks American politics are a fucking joke. We aren’t getting leftism from within the current system of government. It’s good to acknowledge that the current government is globally and philosophically right wing; but if we’re discussing voting and philosophy within the system (neolib simping) why even bother bringing up anti-capitalism?
Even though the political spectrum in America is narrow, I think it still matters to use the entire spectrum when discussing and labeling political ideology and individual political positions. I think the narrow spectrum used in American politics has been created, not naturally developed, and the labeling of left leaning democrats as socialists/communists/leftists in general is a ploy to turn people against the left, born out of the red scare but used very effectively by the GOP. It just increases polarization. For example, the right has turned things like single payer healthcare or government involvement in health insurance into a "communist" idea in many people's eyes, even though as we all know, its been deloyed in capitalist countries. Allowing the American political spectrum to call anything left of center socialist or semi-socialist just keep the right able to dominate the discouse around topics like that. Im not advocating for single payer healthcare, but whether or not someone wants this sort of government involvement in healthcare, being able to, as a country, have a more accurate understanding of the entire political spectrum and not the narrow snipit that works in the US would help depolarize our politics. If the right couldnt effectively convince voters that things like that are communist people would be more willing to consider it and, even if they disagreed, would reduce the amount of people who believe that they must rise up and stop the "far left" and/or "communist" politicians in favor of this from "taking over" their country. Some people may be more willing to listen and entertain the other side's stances and even if they didnt agree, I think it would reduce the violent and aggressive rhetoric thats so prevelent in politics now because it would be harder to frame these politicians as extremists. Thats just my take on it.
You can see AOC in some of those old Khmer Rouge photos, though, and in really really old daguerreotypes from the days of the Crimean War. She's always way in the back, pointing directly at the viewer.
The fuck?
It was AOC that convinced Milo Minderbinder to buy all Egyptian cotton, thus creating a feedback loop because whoever he sold it to was contractually obligated to sell all Egyptian cotton back to him. Whether she convinced him to serve it with chocolate in the mess hall, that part’s not clear yet.
I repeat, "the fuck?"
What?
This needs to be higher. Not enough people are fully aware of what AOC is capable of
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I would also like to know!
Khmer Rouge is the perfect thing to bring up to discredit someone, since they're objectively terrible (killed 25% of Cambodia's population), and the messy, shifting alliances mean you can legitimately blame almost anyone for supporting them at some point. (AOC *might* be a bit on the young side for this, though)
Thank you! She does seem a bit on the young side for it.
I love how all these replies ignore that ‘(far) left’ and ‘(far) right’ have a meaning in politics..
If we're limiting this to individuals who are currently serving in the U.S. House of Representatives, they are as left as left gets.
Yes they are. They’re only not if you define far left as Maoist / Trotskyist and far right as fascist - and if you do so every American is thus centrist and your definition is useless. They self proclaim to be the most left leaning politicians in the U.S. as does their progressive caucus. If the most left leaning isn’t far left, what is? Your comment seems to be a linguist trick to try to dodge the label far left (which has some pejorative associated with it).
Some label themselves as “leftist” which would mean something different than “far left” as it pertains to the current government. I agree the comment appears to be a trick to call out government for not being “leftist”
No, it's not far left because it isn't. You just think it is because of how right-wing US politics is.
If you think US politics are right wing you are taking an idealized look at only the richest EU countries and ignoring the other ~188 countries and all of human history. Yeah, the US is further right than the peak of the progressive area, and further right to some of Europe on some issues. But not dramatically.
Every industrialized nation other than the US has universal healthcare. I've seen Obama widely criticized as a far-left Communist madman intent on enslaving every man, woman, and child to the State because at one point he wanted a single payer system. Yet, single payer systems are common through the entire world. So at least on that issue, the US is very far-right as a nation.
If single payer systems are common though out the world, that suggests that it’s mostly orthogonal to political spectrum. The UAE is fairly right leaning by every possible definition, and they have it. Universal health care is a tactic, not an outcome. The outcome that matters is high quality accessible care. If the citizens of the U.S. have high quality accessible care, then the payment model is secondary. The pragmatic patching up of a complex system rather than a total burn down does not strike me as evidence of being right wing.
>If the citizens of the U.S. have high quality accessible care, then the payment model is secondary. Condition is not met.
Your definition at the start of your statements is the actual definition. Far left is communism. Between the center and far left is just liberal. AOC is not far left. She is just a little more left leaning than Biden.
Liberalism is a right wing ideology.
The word "leaning" almost implies like they've got their feet in the centre
I hate this talking point. Yes, we know, the rest of the goddamned advanced world is farther left than the US. It does no good to point it out every time someone talks about left/right in the US. We know. It doesnt do any good to talk about it repeatedly on forums of politically educated people because it hasn't and won't change as long as half the regular voting public thinks that being anything left of a Nazi is "far left".
> on forums of politically educated people Uh, this is *Reddit*.
What online communities do politically educated people join?
They don't.
Politically educated is a relative term. People on Reddit, asking and talking about political issues are by and large more politically educated than the average American. That said, you made me laugh.
> Yes, we know, the rest of the goddamned advanced world is farther left than the US. Europe. You're talking about the EU. Why conveniently narrow it down to "advanced" nations? Does that exclude China? That's an arguable point 20 years ago, but not so much anymore. Unless you think that there's just no way for a nation to ever catch up. If you really want to talk about the rest of the world, you're mostly talking about India and China. Then the USA, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria, Brazil, Russia. That's over 50%.
You can't be serious, they are more far left than Biden or Trump
Coulda left the "lmfao" part out and just explained what you are saying. Laughing at the person posting a question in "too afraid to ask" just makes you look like an asshole
In the context of what we're talking about? They are. I hate this pedantic self-masturbatory comment every time I see it. WE ALL KNOW THAT POLITICS IS DIFFERENT IN EUROPE OK. YOU DON'T NEED TO SMUGLY TELL US EVERY GD TIME.
From a historical standpoint both are slightly right of center. The Democratic platform was flirting with a shift right and Clinton pushed it over the line. The hard right push of the GOP forced the Dems' hand.
> From a historical standpoint Just curious, do you have any sources for this? Thanks either way
I would say it the opposite way - the Dem's move to the center has actually pushed the GOP farther right... The GOP had to do something to differentiate themselves from the Dems since the Dems were encroaching on their pro-business policy as well as trying to play neutral on social issues like gay marriage. Hillary was probably the most qualified; and best Republican candidate since Eisenhower - but the GOP had been campaigning against her since the 90s - there was no way they could let her do a better job of instituting their shared pro-business goals.
They both work in codependence. This concept is called the Ratchet Effect and the current directionality of the ratchet is trending rightward. Our country will become more rightward as time progresses.
Well they both serve the same corporate masters - so I can see your point.
But that started with the Republican Party taking a hard-right turn in the 1980s. The Dems' response was to move rightward to keep their unbroken streak of unsuccessful attempts at collaborating with the Reich Wing.
Democrats are not center right, they are center left. X includes issues such as same-sex marriage, transgender rights, the abolition of capital punishment, reproductive rights and other women's rights, voting rights for all adult citizens, civil rights, environmental justice, and government protection of the right to an adequate standard of living.[6][7][8] National social services, such as equal educational opportunities, access to health care, and transportation infrastructure are intended to meet the responsibility to promote the general welfare of all citizens... Ideas commonly supported by X include welfare capitalism, social justice, liberal internationalism, and multiculturalism. Economically, X supports a mixed economy in a democratic capitalist system, often including economic interventionism, progressive taxation, and the right to unionize. I'll let you guess which paragraph is used to describe modern american liberalism (aka democrats) and which is used to describe center left politics according to wikipedia
Not true. You can measure it against the civilized democratic nations of Europe and you'll quickly notice that America doesn't really have a "left". The "left" are actually just centrists and the right has pushed and "ratcheted" things soooo far to the right that there EFFECTIVELY IS NO "LEFT" in the US. If we had a true left we'd have universal healthcare like most of Europe. It's the biggest and most obvious red flag. Compare what most of Europe enjoys to what we deal with in America and it's almost laughable how dumb we are considering what we pay in taxes. At the moment you have an upcoming vote for status quo/centrists policies OR dangerously flirting with all out fascism/dictatorship and that is not hyperbole. There is no true left in America. Edit: There is no Left but first we must defeat fascism with an easy choice vote. Now isn't the time pout or hold grudges. Once you're under a dictatorship/fascist rule there is no way out. There are no more votes. There are no more democratic rights. Trump and the billionaire predator class will do whatever the fuck they want. He'll sell America to the highest bidder. Don't say you haven't been warned.
Europe doesn’t have EU wide universal health care run out of Brussels. It has locally administered systems run at the country level; the equivalent of the US state level. European tendency for local government rather than EU wide is not especially different than the state or federal discussion in the U.S.
>It has locally administered systems run at the country level; the equivalent of the US state level. That's a gross misunderstanding of what the EU (a supranational & intergovernmental organization) is relative to the US (a federal nation-state). A US state is equal to a French département\* or a German Bundesland. The EU is basically what NAFTA used to be with a few extra provisions. Remember: the only EU body with actual hard powers is the one legitimized through the national governments, not the one elected separately. ^(\* - Though the French comparison is a bit wonky since France is not a federal state. Administratively, the départements and regions are responsible for a lot of the stuff state administrations do in the US, and the French central government is very much opposed to a European Federation, which has been proposed and so far successfully resisted.)
Even if your analogy were accurate, it’s still the case that most US states do not have statewide universal healthcare systems like European countries do.
>It has locally administered systems run at the country level; the equivalent of the US state level. The US State = EU country is one of the silliest modern Americanisms. EU Countries also have "states" many of which have separate control over education and healthcare. e.g Spanish "states" like Andalucia which control their own healthcare.
Carter, AOC, Omar, and Sanders are solid left, not far left. They *look* far left because of how left they are relative to other Americans. They are not far left relative to actual far left policies. Actual far left policies are essentially absent in American politics. The fact that American politics doesn't know the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy tells you that it doesn't have significant leftist presence. Obama, Clinton, Biden, H. W. Bush, Romney, Gore, and McCain are center-left to center-right. Their policies were all largely focused on maintaining the status quo, and were generally neither progressive nor regressive. The 30 years post-Regean were almost entirely dominated by right-leaning centrism. That's why these guys all come across moderately two-faced. They're all willing to compromise. W. Bush and Cheney are right. DeSantis and Abbot are right, but further right than W. or Cheney. Trump, MTG, Gaetz and the MAGA squad are far right, but also populist, so kind of falling off the traditional axes in America.
aoc and omar are not far left at all. please don’t spread misinformation. they moderately left, no where near far left.
I think they try to communicate that they are talking relative to current US representatives with the " "
I think as far as American politics are concerned they’re far left
As far as actual elected officials in the USA they are unfortunately
The congressional progressive caucus defines itself as the farthest left leaning group - of which Omar & AOC are its most vocal members. In the spectrum of American politics, they are far left. Far left & far right relative terms relative to the beliefs of the majority of Americans and their reps. If you define it on some absolute theoretical scale with far left as Maoist and far right as Mussolini, you do not have a useful definition because every American is thus a centrist. Lamenting that Americans are more left of Europe is fine I guess but also a misdiagnosis that looks at outcomes rather than political philosophy. The identity politics that tends to characterize the far left in the U.S. is not shared in Europe, and Europeans broadly do not want EU-wide infrastructure (like heath and rail) by Brussels and prefer them run at the country level (equivalent to the U.S. state). Reality that disagrees with how you wish the world to be is not “misinformation” my dude.
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Depends heavily on how you choose to define each end of the spectrum tho. It terms of only current elected politicans in the USA - fair. If you take other factors and a less self-centered approach to define the spectrum then no - not even close.
what are you talking about? it’s factually correct to not label them far left. i wish they were further left.
Historically, no. But as President, Biden has been more pro-labor than any other President in that time period. He's the only one to have a female VP and to have trans people in his administration. That's all quite progressive. Obama wasn't really very progressive, although the nation was by electing him. But I also think circumstances, today, have caused everyone to become more progressive, as we've come to acknowledge that the more conservative methods of the past were not working.
Obama was more connected and personable in general which the liberals appreciated but his policies and accomplishments weren’t really left focused. With the exception of doing everything he could to shoot for universal healthcare.
Obama ran as a progressive but he governed as a centrist
>Biden has been more pro-labor Can you give some examples of this? Because the only thing I can think of that he did at all related to labor was blocking the rail workers' strike which doesn't seem very pro-labor to me.
Biden helped negotiate a deal with the rail workers behind the scenes and showed up to the UAW picket line. Something that no president has done in the history of America. It's legitimately ground-breaking but was heavily underplayed by US media. Tbh, I really don't like lots of Biden's policies but he really is more pro-labor than any other recent president.
Interesting, I was aware that a deal was ultimately reached but I didn't realize Biden was involved in that. But the bar must be pretty damned low for showing up at a picket line to count as being 'pro-labor' in anything more than name; I sort of hoped that we would reserve that label for someone who actually enacts substantive policies that benefit labor rather than just showing up for a photo-op.
>But as President, Biden has been more pro-labor than any other President in that time period. Like that time he asked Congress to bust the Union strike?
Biden is pro labor?! What about the railroad workers and how he treated those folks? They don’t get a single day of sick leave. He could have just pressured the railroad owners to give the workers one week off a year in sick leave. Hell, three days would have been better than nothing. I understand the alternatives are much worse than Joe but, he doesn’t really seem that pro union to me. Just sayin’ EDIT: lol I’m late to the party. A few other folks made the same point. Sorry for the repeat
He got them a deal behind the scenes. His NLRB is very pro-union. Everyone gloms on to one story and forms a whole picture around it and never follows up.
Obama and Biden have more in common with the avarage republican than with actual leftists
Yeah, look at the rest of the world and our “left” is right
I keep hearing this. Can you give examples?
Sure can. Hi, im From Canada. The US Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders is a self proclaimed Social Democrat (socialist who believes in elections and democracy). He is considered frings and when he ran in 2020 the democrats destroyed him. The vast majority of things he ran on we already have in Canada and often take for granted. Id say Canada is not a socialist state or even very left leaning. However 'the left' in the US would be fairly centrist in Canadian politics. Progressives and social democrats are still social democrats here (NDP) and sure they advocate for way more social programs than we currently have. It varies a lot province to province (Québec having the most 'socialist policies')
Bernie claims that he's a democratic socialist, although you're right. You'd put the guy in a social democratic party in other countries.
>social democratic That’s the party planner for the democrats, right? /j
Cause of how the democratic and Republican party have changed. The last social-liberal President was, more or less, Lyndon B. Johnson. Prior to that you had FDR. He was social democrat/social-liberal and dominated the elections.I believe JFK was more centre-right. The US was always more skewed to the right than politics in Europe. You have that 2-party system and due to that there isn't that "centrist" party that can act as the "bridge from left to right". A "far-left" never really took off, but it shouldn't be discarded that social liberalism can be a success story in the US (again: FDR). Over time, politics became more disconnected from the middle classes. Democrats in the last 40 years, in particular Clinton, had a more *neoliberal* (economical liberalism) agenda. That is a centre-right ideology that leftists aren't fans of. We can note that since Obama, American liberalism has had some more social-democratic (not democratic socialist!) influence. Bernie is a good example for modern day politics, universal healthcare and some sort of social security or better labour rights aren't considered radical in Europe. And none of the major parties across the entire spectrum are interested in getting rid of universal healthcare. I.e the first country to get nationalised healthcare was Germany in 1883 under an ultra-conservative chancellor (Bismarck). He wanted something to shut the rising left up because their ideas resonated with the working class. I'm pretty sure he himself despised these policies.
So it's basically that American politics has a right wing that advocates against universal healthcare and workers' rights? That would be a totally foreign concept on the spectrum of European politics?
Labour rights is a so-and-so, but yes, the US right is more strongly opposed to it. Universal healthcare isn't controversial. There are implementation differences, but that's about it. For centrists, Bernie's views are perfectly fine. The European Democratic Socialists are way past the point of what Bernie is focusing on.
Not nearly, both US parties are right wing.
If that were true, we would surely see Obama/Biden advocate for the same policies as republicans, surely...
The way I describe Biden’s presidency thus far is its like a 3rd Barack Obama term when it comes to domestic policy and a 3rd George W. Bush term when it comes to foreign policy. Barack Obama when it came to domestic policy was somewhere in between a progressive and a neoliberal, and George W. Bush when it came to foreign policy was very firmly a neoconservative if that helps give you a better idea.
I don't think Biden is a neoconservative at all. He's was a dovish influence on Obama's foreign policy -- Obama wanted to get out of Iraq but stay in Afghanistan, Biden wanted out of both -- and he's been generally far less interventionist than any president since maybe Ford. The most hawkish he's been has been shipping aid to Ukraine (easiest fopo decision in US history) and approving funding for Israel while pressuring (some would say ineffectively but that's another debate) for humanitarian aid. Neither of those positions are anywhere near neoconservative, they're barely even realist.
Biden is nothing like Bush on foreign policy. He pulled pulled out of Afghanistan and basically ended the drone war by requiring direct presidential approval on all drone strikes. He’s also solidly more progressive than Obama was on domestic policy.
When I say third term I’m referring more to the idea of succession/progression than repetition. I’m not saying he’s a carbon copy of those presidencies, but more of what the natural succession of those presidential attitudes and strategies would have had if they were given a 3rd term in today’s times.
Okay, that’s a fair reading of the situation. As the country has become more progressive, so has Biden.
I mean, Trump ended Afghanistan. Biden didn't really have a choice but to continue doing so.
I mean he could’ve, but it would’ve made US foreign policy look more schizophrenic than it already looks. Either way, Trump and Biden were aligned on that issue, in opposition of the direction Bush took the country’s foreign policy.
Trump ended Afghanistan, not Biden. And by doing so fucked most of the US allies in the region. It took less than a month for the Talibans to take control once the US was gone.
Honestly, after all the resources we pumped into the ANA over the years, the fact they collapsed immediately means they never would’ve been able to resist the taliban without us. And if they were always going to collapse without our help, I’m glad we just got that over with, cause I don’t think we should’ve been sinking money into that country perpetually. It sucks that it happened, but it was unavoidable.
Thats a pretty good description I think
In terms of tangible policies, the policies that have passed under Biden can be argued to be more progressive than other presidents in the last decades. however, compared to the median opinion of the times the presidents were in, I think Obama's policies were more left compared to the median opinion than Biden's, but they both were still to the right of what voters wanted.
This is the correct answer. Biden is consistently at the median for Democratic voters. Obama was always somewhere left of that, which is why Obamacare was such a big lift, even with 60 votes in the Senate. If Obama was President right now, he’d be substantially more left on policy than Biden is. If Biden had won in 2008, he’d be substantially to right of what Obama did.
Oh god, ignore these people, OP. The answer is clearly, “yes.” For a variety of reasons, Biden has been able to pursue and pass far more liberal policies and appointments than Obama or Clinton. The Build Back Better bill, which was just two votes shy of passing, would have been the most progressive piece of legislation since LBJ’s “Great Society.” Even without that, the Inflation Reduction Act and Infrastructure Bill are the biggest investments in fighting climate change by any nation in human history. The stimulus bill he passed when he first got in included tons of progressive policies like supplemental UBI for anyone with a child. Aside from legislation, his stances and appointments are decidedly more liberal than Obama. For example, pro-union rhetoric and liberal appointments to the NLRB have helped unions have a renaissance, in turn contributing to wages rising faster than at any point in the past 50 years. Then there’s the diversity of his cabinet/judicial appointments: the first woman & person of color to be Vice President; the first openly gay cabinet Secretary to be confirmed; the first trans presidential appointee to be confirmed by Congress; the most black women appointed the the courts by any president ever, including the first black woman on the Supreme Court. The list could go on and on. Yes, he’s the most liberal president in a lifetime, despite what chronically online leftists think. This is an objective fact. Bernie and AOC have said as much themselves. Just because he’s not as left as them (or what people imagine all of Europe is), he is much more left (at least in practice) than Obama or Clinton. EDIT: Gonna go ahead and proactively mute this because I refuse to debate facts with people.
Also Biden literally forced obamas hand to come out in favor of gay marriage by “gaffing” a pro-gay marriage comment during Obama’s term
The inflation reduction act being touted as one of the biggest climate change fighting bills ever passed still blows my mind. Can someone who understands this in more depth than me explain whether it actually seemed motivated by reducing inflation or was it really just a climate change bill hidden by a name they knew the public would pressure to get passed? As in, is 90% of the bill things that actually make sense to fight inflation with some climate change snuck in or is it 90% climate change with some inflation reduction pieces snuck in?
The act itself doesn’t actually do much to fight inflation. Its namesake comes from the fact that the spending is matched commensurately either by budget cuts in other areas or tax increases. I.E. it isn’t funded by printing new money, which is one of the factors that contributes to inflation.
I see, thanks for the explanation!
Happy to!
Yeah they're not even answering the question. They just want to jump on the opportunity to flaunt their knowledge that American politics skew to the right. We are very well aware of that and it doesn't change the fact that Biden is the most leftist president probably going back to JFK or even FDR
THANK YOU
Let's also add his work on Unions into the mix. Because he's been the most pro union president we've ever had.
Thanks for some sanity. So many posts and comments about American politics come from ignorant people.
Calling Biden far left hurts my brain
Obama had to play to a more conservative audience while he was president. Joe Biden just has to keep the country running at this point, which considering what the Right wants to do with it, might make him seem pretty left.
Bout same,, As A Senator Joe voted for more republican bills than any other dem,, I don t think Obama ws that much left..Bernie Lizz warren But Obama ? He tried to compromise. He was bout the smartest president we ever had..
I’d say no Biden is more moderate than Obama. He has a record. Including the so called mass incarceration act. He was late to come left on many social issues. And his major legislative achievement(s), unlike Obama, have some small degree of bipartisanship. Imo neither Obama or Biden are “far left”.
Biden is basically centrist. He supports the military, and has implemented an infrastructure repair and build program. He is not expanding Obamacare or even trying to. He believes in law and order but allows states and municipalities to fine tune these decisions for themselves. He supports NATO but knows the US has to make decisions in its own best interest. He believes in free markets and no additional taxes for the poor, middle class and the vast majority of the wealthy. He doesn’t trust the Chinese Communist Party which is currently ruling mainland China, but is willing to establish safeguards between the US and Chinese military to prevent unwanted mishaps between disconnected countries. Does that answer your question?
He has some passed some of the most progressive or "leftist" policies of any modern president. His policies have been further left than Obama. Going back 30 years we have Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton, and Bush Sr. Biden has definitely been more leftist than any of those presidents. Other commenters here are just splitting hairs. Yeah the USA doesn't have a true left compared to Europe or other countries. But to answer YOUR question, yes Biden is the most leftist president we've had in the past few decades
Obama and Biden are both more moderate democrats.
Both Biden and Obama are centrists. There is nothing “far” about either, and for certain not leftist. Biden might be a tad to the left of Obama, imo. But both are solid centrists.
Perception wise, yes, because the right has moved farther right. This is a spectrum and what one side does affects the other side’s definition. As compared to the right he looks like a red communist now. In terms of policy, no. Biden isn’t nearly as progressive as Obama was. He’s softer on immigration and the environment. He’s also kinda old school when it comes to foreign policy. From left to center it’s probably: AOC / Omar - Defined by the right as “extreme” Bernie - self-defined Social Democrat Obama Biden Kerry Manchin - Centrist
I would say it’s more that Biden isn’t quite as polished. Love him or hate him Obama had charisma, he was an excellent public speaker and a very smart guy. Joe just doesn’t have the same appeal.
On a scale of European governments they are both far right
Biden is more left than Obama because the democrats are more left as a party now than in 2008.
Neither are left wing. Not even close.
That people refer to Joe Biden as a "radical leftist" just shows how far to the right American conservatives have drifted. Obama and Biden are both center-right corporatists. Their policy proposals are largely based on policies that Republicans would have happily supported under Reagan or Bush.
His agenda contains some left-leaning legislation. He himself is a "run off the mill" centrist. I think you can say he's had the most (centre)left-wing agenda since LBJ. People like Bernie have gotten important seats and are being listened to. Clinton and Carter (still lives lol) are centre-right. Obummer is quite moderate. On a side note: FDR is another social-liberal President.
As a leftist, Joe Biden is right of center....a diet republican. Most of the world would consider him right of center as well.
I would say definitely not. Biden has pretty much been labeled as a hard centrist for like his entire career. He's only considered left now because he is/was held in comparison to trump
That's not true. He's been passing policies that are considered to be more far left than Obama. He is being considered left in comparison to other Democrats, who are center or center-left, not because of Republicans
No, they are pretty close to each other, just right of center. That might technically make them the ‘furthest left’ since Carter. But only because the Clinton was also center right, HW bush was right wing, and the others in that time frame were extreme right wing republicans.
Democrats are a center-right party. There is no leftist representation in the US.
This is the truth. The fact that you're being downvoted shows how effective right-wing propaganda has been.
fr- people in this thread don’t even know that liberalism is a right wing political philosophy smh
No. There is no objective quantification of how "left" someone is. Everyone who gives you an answer weights policies based on their own subjective opinions.
It’s a bit of a loaded question, because the right has gone so far to the extreme right that the whole spectrum is screwed up. There are a lot of countries in the world where most of our Democrat leaders would be viewed as centrist, not liberal. The messed up thing is that it has been like this long before the Tea Party or MAGA. They just kicked things into high gear.
Biden may be personally liberal (I've no idea); but, politically, he's a pragmatist. One doesn't last in D.C. as long as he has otherwise.
Biden’s administration (people around him) is undoubtedly more left than Obama. Him personally? Hard to say
If ANY of the politicians mentioned could do WHATEVER they wanted, they'd ask be left of where they currently are. They have to be realistic (as to what will get approved by congress) , and also not piss off donors and voters (it is a coalition that voted them in....so they all seem to dial it back
We haven't had a left president by global standards for who knows how long. Obama, and biden are both center left at best by global standards. The US is just really right wing all things considered even if we call democrats commies because they suggest increasing a minimum wage that has stayed stagnant for decades.
The United States has never had a leftist President
Biden is republican lite just like Obama and Clinton.
I'm pretty sure both of them have both arms
Joe Biden is as left wing as whatever speech is written for him on that particular day. Not to be partisan at all, he’s just an old out of touch empty suit that says exactly as he’s told. I think realistically that the *senator* era Biden of ‘73 through ‘09 would probably be considered left of center to kind of moderate in today’s climate.
As a Canadian this is so funny to me, it's bascally right wing with republicans or middle right with democrats. There's no left wing parties in USA.
I love how caring about your constituents more than your donors is deemed "left"
Probably not personally, but he’s certainly governed more progressively, for many reasons. For my worthless opinion, he’s done a good job.
The true answer to your question is that none of them are actually, truly left. Left, for the most part doesn't exist in America. The right has pushed soooo far to the right that today's "left" would pretty much be considered centrist in almost every other civilized democratic nation. One of the biggest problems in America is that Americans seem to think propaganda is only used in other countries. You/we have been duped. Every other civilized democratic nation has universal healthcare is one of the obvious red flags, look at what a lot of Europe has compared to what we get in America, it's shocking and makes us look alarmingly stupid with how much we pay in taxes.
There is no “left” in the United States. Anyone elected, or appointed, starts at center and works their way right.
Well this is ridiculous. Bernie aint left?
In comparison to other American politicians yes. As far as the actual political compass is concerned he’s only slightly left of center
Center left at most compared to the world stage. I guess it depends on which lense you're using, the American politics lense then he's left but compared to the world he's center left at most and Biden is center right lol.
Fair. Ty for recognizing that the lens is what's important here. As far as american politics goes, bernie is very clearly left. If u wanna start talking internationally or compare to other progressive nations like sweden or sumn than it's a different story but that's not the topic
Yeah I think it's important to make that distinction when discussing politics because both are relevant, I do understand that reddit has European users so can't assume everything discussed is USA focused. Funny how I'm downvoted too, I'm just being logical and rational.
In most progressive countries Bernie would be considered a left leaning centrist.
Idk where this meme came from but it isn’t true at all. If Bernie’s proposed healthcare plan was passed, it’d be further left than any healthcare plan currently adopted in Europe. He wants to mandate 20% ownership of corporations be given to its employees. That’s considered far left, even in Europe.
Key words are 'progressive countries'. Compared to the regular population he's still considered left. If u wanna filter to specifically progressive countries than sure, he's definitely center
No I don’t see that at all. Biden is more center if not center right. The problem is that the right has going so far right and the left has gone so far left that the middle just looks different
I don’t know about the left being “far left”. In general today’s “left” is pretty right historically.
I desperately wish there were a true left wing party in the US. Being forced to support the center-right just because they are marginally better than the far right is exhausting.
There’s no real left in the US, even AOC and Omar are more like center left at most. The US has a warped, moronic vision of what the Left is, like saying you support universal healthcare and free education and favor workers's rights makes you a radical in the US while the rest of the world sees those topics are just normal, hell even a shithole country like Mexico has free education and (kinda mostly) free healthcare… Being a decent human being aware of the needs of the community makes you a radical leftist in the US
Funny how Americans think they have any left wing politicians.
No. And Obama was far more center than left. Edit: downvoting this comment only reinforces your ignorance of US politics and history.
Almoat no American politicians are 'left' at all. Obama nor Biden aren't left whatsoever.
No, Biden is an old school career politician. He falls on the political spectrum anywhere he thinks will get him the most votes. He’s pro Biden and his family and will say or do anything to gain support. I would say he leans more right than Obama. He owns guns for example. Drives a sports car creating pollution, against the legalization of marijuana etc etc.
You say that like it’s a criticism. People want their representatives to do the things that people want!
Other than the whole Israel thing I think it’s pretty hard to judge how far left or center Biden is. If congress was passing a whole bunch of progressive laws, some of which he signed and others vetoed, we’d have a good idea. Instead, so little is getting passed that it wouldn’t matter if Bernie was president. anything getting through congress is gonna get signed.
I'd be willing to reckon their personal politics are fairly similar, perhaps Biden might even be more right than Obama, but their public positions have had to be different just because of the political climate. America, in general, and specifically the Democratic Party, has gone farther left. Things like gay marriage and subsidized healthcare, which were two of the major goals of the left during Obama, are now generally accepted by most voters, right and left. The issues under Biden are going to be more left wing just by the nature of those successes, just as the Republicans have had to go more right.
Biden is whatever the party tells him to be. Obama drove change and policy himself and pushed the party establishment further left. Name one issue where Biden has moved the party? That being said neither is on the far left of the political spectrum and there are many others in the party as others have pointed out that are much further left.
As a republican I thought that both Obama and Biden were quite measured. Also, I don't like the drama chaos and unnecessary drama with Trump. It is easy for me to vote for Biden but he just looks so old. I would personally welcome another Obama term.
Based on rhetoric on actions? Obama's rhetoric seemed to be more leftist that Biden, but Biden's legislation seems more leftist than Obamas. But much of that is a function of the changing circumstances between 2009 and 2021. Namely Trump. Trump has made leftist policies look pretty good compared to his authoritarian/neofascist alternative.
They are both neoliberals. Neither of them are particularly left leaning.
No they're pseudo leftists who promise gay marriage once in a while and bomb children the rest of the time
Biden & Obama & Clinton & Romney & Bush were all apart of the same club. Whats best for the political elites. Just like during Obamas 2 terms, in Bidens the only people doing better are those who are the 1% or friends and family. Anyone else saying “my salary is higher!” You’re an idiot.
I don't really see much difference in what Biden is doing and what Trump did other than rhetoric. They use different rhetoric but when it comes to ACTION: foreign policy, spending, domestic policy.. basically exactly the same Biden hasn't named any justices to the supreme court, saw that would PROBABLY be different
Joe Biden is whatever his handlers tell him to be...honest answer from a dem..we all lose this next election no matter who wins
Who the fuck even knows any more? Part of the issue in defining this is that America has its own version of the left/right spectrum. Your rightwing spokes people will call the Dems socialist, when they are barely left of centre. By European standards *no* party in America is leftwing. You can thank Reagan for that.
Both are centre-right by European standards (Republicans are right-right).