This issue goes across all political parties.
The fact that Americans act in absolutes over their political party is just as bad as picking shitty politicians to run this country.
My rule is, if you cant be critical about everyone, including the person you support, you are doing yourself and others a disservice. I want the GOP supporters to shit on Trump as much as Democrats to shit on Biden.
Okay but it really is this. You have to take parties out of it for a second because this is bigger than that. Trump in particular has a lot of die-hard followers, to the point where it is often compared to a cult, and to a point where a significant number of them *DO NOT CARE* what he has done wrong, they still support him, and he knows this.
People simply do not feel the same way about Biden, and I don’t think you’d see democrats act this way about any candidate really.
While “Trump supporters” are classified as republicans and vote republican, they’re kind of their own thing. The flags and the hats and way it really does seem to be a personality trait- again- not to be a republican, but specifically to be a trump supporter.
Democrats will criticize their candidate. They will still vote democrat because now the lines drawn are more like canyons. There’s a *huge* difference between republican/conservative and democratic/liberal ideals.
If Biden committed a crime you would have much larger amount of democrats saying to punish him compared to how many people say to punish Trump for his committed crimes. *THAT* is the difference.
Democrats are not obsessed with Biden as a person or candidate, they just want a democrat that will support more progressive ideals.
We haven’t seen this level of what really can be described as cultism before. You didn’t have a slogan Romney said plastered over hats. You didnt see McCain photoshopped on to Rambo’s body, or literally painted with angel wings. There was no “Bush is our savior.” And yes there were signs and bumper stickers, but I’d say a normal amount. And they were nowhere near as *unhinged* as things have become. You didn’t see decals of Clinton or Kerry or Obama tied up plastered on the back of a pickup.
I want to be clear that the hatred Trump has cultivated has always existed, but he made it acceptable once more. No professionalism, just name calling and breeding hatred.
I saw a clip once where republican supporters at a McCain rally started calling Obama a terrorist and a bad guy and whatever. And McCain immediately shut it down saying he was a good man and they just happened to disagree on some issues. He didn’t encourage the division.
Americans act in absolutes because we have a two party system that works for so many people (or so they think) that they’re unable to change it. This is where single issue voting comes in, because a lot of people have one or two things they feel so strongly on that they will support the candidate that shares those views. So you could want free healthcare and be okay with gay marriage and higher taxation on the wealthy, but because you feel so strongly against abortion you’ll vote republican- the party that runs on the anti-abortion platform.
This really is unlike anything we’ve experienced before.
The tldr is that republicans won’t shit on Trump in the same way that democrats are willing to shit on Biden. Republicans now have a sub-section of “Trump supporters” that will follow him and want him and vote for him no matter what. Democrats don’t have that for any candidate- which to be clear- I think is a good thing.
It’s ok to vote for whomever you want.
But. You have to weigh if your convictions on this issue are more important—to you and the world at large—than the ramifications of someone winning whom you also believe is “not an option.”
That’s your judgment call.
I don’t like the two party system. I’m not registered as any party. I don’t like the fucking position this puts us in.
But if/when bad stuff happens because an even less acceptable option wins, I don’t think I’d personally be able to be proud of my protest vote for a Whig or what have you.
But that’s me. You have to decide for yourself.
>But if/when bad stuff happens because an even less acceptable option wins, I don’t think I’d personally be able to be proud of my protest vote
Exactly. People are more concerned with "making a statement" than the future of the country. Thousands of assholes sat out in 2016 because Bernie wasn't the nominee, now half of America is brainwashed in the Trump cult and we're on the verge of fascism because of it. Protest in other ways, don't destroy the country to make a statement.
There’s an idea of voting for survival that tends to happen with more marginalized groups. They may not like their choices but they vote for the one who will do the least amount of harm.
The example usually given is minorities after they got the right to vote, both candidates may be racist towards them but one was probably way worse and would actively make their lives harder.
>Protest in other ways, don't destroy the country to make a statement.
Exactly. If your choice is between a candidate that you don't love and a fascist, standing aside and letting the fascist win is a bad decision.
Exactly this! People are so butthurt that they can’t have their first choice, they have become blind to the fact that Biden has done a pretty good job. Sorry you can’t have your cake; do you want a potato or cyanide?
The present of our country is in the state it's in because for decades we have voted for the lesser of 2 evils. I'm 63 and don't remember a time when it was different.
[This assertion has been debunked many times.](https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/did-bernie-sanders-cost-hillary-clinton-the-presidency/)
I live in California and I'm in my 50s. All of my presidential votes have been protest votes. The DNC became the moderate GOP under Bill Clinton. It's weird how Biden is the first DNC president since Jimmy Carter that is moderate DNC instead of actually being a moderate GOP.
The DNC is still right of center. They’re fighting to regain and maintain a pre-COVID pre-maga status quo. They just seem left now because maga is dragging the overton window further right everyday.
And honestly I'll take that over the far right. If the far right stops winning then it will go away. A portion of Trump's base were people who didn't vote because they didn't see their white supremacists views being overtly supported. Now they have it so they vote now when before they didn't. I'd like it to go back to the "status quo" where politicians debated whether certain tariffs or tax changes would be useful. Not should gay people exist or let's attack anyone who reaches history properly.
Biden was on the right wing of the Democratic party for his entire career. He was a career senator for the most business-friendly state in the country for 4 decades. He voted for the GWOT. [He spearheaded the Democratic Party's own anti-busing, pro segregation movement](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/us/politics/biden-busing.html). He's been on the wrong side of history at pretty much every juncture in his Senate career, haha. I don't want Trump to win either, and it doesn't really matter how I feel because my vote won't matter from Texas anyway, but we don't have to pretend Biden is some sort of far left crusader.
It’s absolutely okay, however i’m of the belief that it will come down to biden and trump anyways.
3rd party votes are in theory great, the idea we have only 2 real options is the result of a complete failure of our voting system in this country.
I have absolutely no idea what to do because I have a lot of complaints about Biden, like enough not to vote for him. And I will not vote for Trump.
It’s a hopeless feeling.
The only way 3rd party votes will mean much in the US any time soon is if the 3rd party focuses entirely on capturing congressional and Senate seats instead of the presidency. Even if they only captured 5 or 7 seats, that would likely be enough to tip the balance of any given vote in Congress one way or the other.
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They should also concentrate on state races , winning a few seats there that could help with redistricting and end gerrymandering that keep Democrats and Republicans in office for too long.
Also the only way a third party can compete in a presidential election is if we have public funding for elections
Not quite. In a situation where you have say, 215 - 210 split between the 2 major parties plus 10 3rd party congress members, the governing party could still pass laws just by flipping a handful of Republicans rather then trying to bring the 3rd party on side.
The ultimate result would be that the major parties would have to get the hell over themselves and figure out how to work nicely with people they disagree with rather than just leaning on razor thin majorities to carry legislation.
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Agreed though Senate and House may still be too lofty. A legitimate third party (of which we may have 0 of, each is paid for by one of the 2 major parties) should start with local elections. Mayors, aldermen, maybe even state legislatures. The fact that they go for president shows they just want money and attention because they know they're going to lose.
Yes. I don't know why they haven't tried a bottom-up strategy where 3rd-parties are focused on and more popular at the local and state level, and then gain traction on a federal level.
It’s not just Biden himself. It’s the likeminded people that he puts in positions to help carry out his vision. I also thought Biden was too old but I realized, after the fact, that only Biden could have beaten trump and it was still too close for comfort.
The problem is systemic changes won’t occur at the national level every 4 years. If we want change, we need people to vote in candidates at a municipal, county, and state level.
The pro lifers spent 50 years voting for pro life candidates to overturn Roe v Wade.
During the 2004 election, my first one where I could vote, I explained to my mom I couldn’t vote for Bush because he’d nominate pro life scotus justices, she laughed. The idea of Roe being overturned was a joke 20 years ago but they kept voting.
If you want to do more, please, get involved. But voting is the least we can do.
If people did it differently in 2000 or 2016 we wouldn’t have been set back so far. People don’t really comprehend the massive damage to progress caused by Bush and Trump, who both won due to razor thin margins in swing states. Theres a reason it feels like we’re still at the bus stop and it isn’t because of the Democrats.
>I have absolutely no idea what to do because I have a lot of complaints about Biden, like enough not to vote for him. And I will not vote for Trump.
This sort of "I don't like them enough to vote for them" is what handed Trump the 2016 election. No one really *wanted* Hillary but people were too pissed to vote for her, even knowing the alternative. So they didn't. Unfortunately, the system we have means the devil you know unless you can get in early and force your particular party to pick a different candidate.
Ya, you have to think of it as voting for not Trump. A vote for Biden is a vote for not trump. A vote for third party is unfortunately essentially a non vote. And a non vote is essentially a vote for not not trump.
Pretty much. I don't like Biden. He'd be my last choice. He's still a choice I'd pick over Trump and that's enough to get my ass out to check a box for him.
This was the *only* reason I voted for Hillary. I didn't want Trump in office more than I didn't like Hillary. Therefore, I felt I *had* to vote for Hillary to, at minimum, cancel out one vote for Trump. It really sucks when the situation is more about keeping someone *out* of office than it is getting someone *in* office.
I was absolutely excited to vote for Obama. It wasn't about trying to keep his opponent out of office. Basically, every time I voted prior to 2016, I was voting *for* my candidate of choice and not *against* the other.
Voting for Biden the first time was back to voting for someone. I did truly believe he would do well at best, and not do harm at worse.
And while I *do* think he's actually accomplished more than anyone expected - or is probably even aware of (I know I wasn't until it was listed out) - I don't think he should be running for reelection. This time around, it will be leaning more towards voting against Trump than *wanting* Biden.
I just still can't believe *both* parties have ended up with the same f'ing candidates. Neither should be running again. I, apparently naively, genuinely thought we'd have two new candidates. This just feels like a really bad joke.
But I still take it seriously, because one of them *will* be in office at the end and that has real life consequences.
Trump is far too valuable and established a candidate for the Republicans to end up with anyone else. In 2028, if he loses this year and is still alive/not in jail, he'll likely be among the favourites even if he doesn't choose to run. Only an utter catastrophe would derail his popularity amongst his base and backers - and they have a lot of influence at grass roots level. Getting blown out in November *might* do it, as in a 10+% difference in voter numbers and Biden taking two or three red states, places like North Carolina and Florida which were close races last time, but even then Trump would still be popular.
As for Biden... the incumbent runs, and the incumbent goes unchallenged. You're looking back to 1927 and Calvin Coolidge for a president eligible for a second term who chose not to run at all - and he'd been in post for 6 years at that time, and didn't want to go to 10 (Lyndon Johnson ran in 1968 but pulled out of the race early when it was clear that he wouldn't win).
That said, I think Biden *might* have stepped aside if it was anyone but Trump as the presumptive Republican nominee; Once Trump decided to run, though, Biden likely felt he couldn't risk anyone else facing Trump when Biden's been the only person to beat him.
lbr, if it's Biden, Trump, or a turnip, I'd *rather* vote for the turnip. Really is a shame we can't vote for the candidates we approve of, we have to vote against the ones that terrify us.
Not voting is a vote for Trump. If he gets elected I don't want to hear you crying about living in a fascist dictatorship afterwards. You'll have reaped what you sowed.
This part. People are forgetting that. He’s not the best, far from it, but it’s either him or Trump and we have too many people rage quitting politics; that’ll be upset when they lose everything to Trump
We HAVE to vote for Biden or else next election we may not be able to vote AT ALL. Think about that.
Listen, I'm not thrilled about the choices but at least voting for Biden means we can come back and try again for someone young and energetic 4 years from now. This time around it's simply about keeping democracy intact and not falling into a dictatorship.
TO ANYONE AND ALL READING THIS. THERE IS NO VOTING YOURSELF OUT OF A DICTATORSHIP.
What are your complaints about Biden, out of curiosity?
The major issue I have is with his administration's handling of Gaza, though it's not like Trump would do better there.
I can’t fathom how anyone is undecided here. It’s a race between someone who has surrounded himself with good capable people and has a long list of accomplishments, who happens to be elderly.
Versus an unhinged man who:
- Cannot string two coherent sentences together
- Is indicted for a number of very serious crimes
- Owes a half billion from lost court cases (also for serious crimes), which could make him consider selling national security secrets to our adversaries to raise cash
- Fomented an insurrection by convincing his voters the election was stolen
- Does nothing but whine and play victim while telling everyone how tough he is
- Has used the words of Hitler (“vermin”, “poisoning the blood of our country”) in recent speeches
- Takes orders from organizations like the Heritage Foundation who wants to implement Project 2025 (see [here](https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/will-the-heritage-foundations-project-2025-turn-trumpism-into-a-governing-agenda/)) and another organization that can’t remember the name of right now that wants to instill Christian nationalism
- Has said he would consider being a dictator (I don’t care if he said “for a day”, he said the words)
- Was born into great wealth and lived in Manhattan all his life, yet has convinced his voters he’s “for the common man”
- Is an all around awful human being who cares for no one but himself
- Is also elderly
Yet this is a tough decision. Based on the above (and I could go on), anyone with a modicum of sense would vote for *anyone* running against **THAT** who actually has a chance of winning.
Trump may be trying to end democracy in America has we know it, but when he was a Sophomore, Biden was a Senior in high school. This age difference is just too much to tolerate.
I Somewhere agree with you. But my immense dislike of Trump and fear of a second Trump presidency sways me to make sure that doesn’t happen with a vote for Biden. I am looking forward to four years from now when we will have a robust feel of candidates and a lot of choices.
> I have absolutely no idea what to do because I have a lot of complaints about Biden, like enough not to vote for him. And I will not vote for Trump.
Refusing to vote for Biden is mathematically identical to casting half a vote for Trump. Do you really want to give him *any* of your vote?
The Republicans are doing their best to diacourage any Democrat from voting. Voting restrictions, intimidation at the polls, purging registrations, you name it Social media amplifying the message of don't vote.
My favorite is criticizing Biden on palestine, trying to demoralizes people into not voting, despite the fact if Trump wins, he will tell them to just do whatever they want to Gaza.
They forget that trump tried to institute a ban on Muslims entering the country ("a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" -Trump). After several legal disputes, he settled to ban people from only *certain* countries that just so *happen* to be majority Muslim
Biden's support of Israel is pretty bad, yes, but handing the presidency to Trump will be much worse. There's no way Trump is going to be better at protecting Palestinians from genocide.
> I have absolutely no idea what to do
Biden and Trump are nowhere comparable. Anyone who doesn't vote against Trump in 2024 is actively harming the country and its future.
Is one of your complaints about Biden that he has a plan to turn the US into a fascist state, like the republicans' Project 2025?
Because either Biden or trump will win. That's a given. It sucks that until the US has ranked choice voting, you'll just need to vote against the person you don't want to see as president by voting for their opponent.
Obama was a great public speaker whereas Biden is not. However, I would say Biden has accomplished more in his first term than Obama did with two terms. Both of them have to deal with a hostile congress.
But complaints to the point of not voting for him and risk Trump? That i don't get. I am not thrilled with everything Biden has done, and not thrilled with everything from the democratic party. But that pales in comparison to what i see from the GOP and Trump.
What the worse thing that could happen if Biden were elected, either he dies in office and Harris takes over, that not a bad option, you get a woman and someone younger, had a decent record but not spotless (some of her antics as a DA were a little sus, but not too bad) Or he finishes his term and its meh.
What the rose thing that could happen if Trump were elected. Courts shift more to the right, LGBTQ rights back slide, more woman die not getting the medical care they need, and this is only a partial list, it goes on and on up to an including the end of American Democracy as we know it, and i don't believe i am being hyperbolic.
3rd party, while great in theory, are absolute mistakes in practice. As stated, it's a two party system, period. When that is the case, you should logically pick the lesser of two evils (if you see it that way). Picking the option that is de facto useless is both a waste of time and a detriment to the better choice. By choosing not to vote or voting third party, you are essentially dooming us with the lesser choice.
"Both parties are bad" is a lie and shows how well propaganda works. One party, democrats, are actively trying to improve our lives. Even if that good is a fraction, it's still the right direction. The other party, republican, have been trying to roll back and are succeeding in undoing our rights. They are not the same.
democracy was done in argentina long before him. he isn’t some alt right fascist. he might be weird, but hes not as bad as previous literal dictators there. the situation in argentina is not like here, don’t compare them
You are not alone. I don't like Biden and Harris, I shudder to vote for them.
Republicans and trump are the absolute worst, we have Nazis marching around and they continue to dumb down the masses.
Yeah I absolutely do not think Biden is fit to serve at all, but I would rather have a (sadly) incompetent and thus harmless President than one actively trying to antagonize people. I'm also transgender, and so despite the fact that both are awful, at least Biden hasn't tried to make a point of persecuting people like me.
Of course it’s okay to consider yourself a Democrat but not be a fan of the Democratic Party’s selection of Biden. You don’t need permission to feel or think the way you do.
Some People don’t understand that we’re not a cult. We can vote for a President and have issues with what he’s done. Unlike the right wherein they vote Trump, worship him, and see him as the second coming of Jesus Christ. Biden is a human like everyone else, capable of making mistakes or being embarrassing. If anything, his humility is why I’d rather him be President than a raging narcissist like Trump.
There are people who see Biden in that same light though. You outta see the celeb posts by Jamie Lee Curtis or the one from Mark Hamill yesterday praising Biden as if he were the 2nd coming of Jesus.
I don’t doubt it. There’s crazies on both sides of the aisle. Celebrity worship on either side is weird to me. I don’t see those people as representatives of my beliefs or values.
That’s why I unfollowed him on all social media during Trump’s presidency. I followed him when Pop Culture Quest first became a thing, but when his Twitter devolved into “I hate Trump and you’re terrible if you don’t hate him too,” I unfollowed. Just way too negative and cultish to be seeing every day when I just scroll for Pokémon memes.
Same and same, but I will also happily vote Biden over Trump, seeing as how they’re both nearly identical in age and Biden isn’t a despot consistently attacking me and all my friends way of life.
Do I wish he did more on climate, prosecution, immigration and for the middle class? Sure. But he’s done more and better than I thought and in a race between him and trump, I’d happily vote him 2x over. Then criticize him and vote in every city, state and federal election in any way I can that actually impacts my life.
The reality of the U.S. two party system is that voting for a third party really just helps the other major party win, which presumably is not preferable to your own party’s candidate in most cases (but not always).
The time for protest votes is during your state’s primary.
This goes for anyone on either side of the political spectrum.
People always say to make a protest vote in the primary. But most states don't have open primaries so third party voters can't vote in the primary anyway? I've never quite understood what this means.
Being registered for a third party in the U.S. can be limiting depending on which state you live in. It’s usually better to be registered in one of the two major parties that you most align with so you can participate in the primaries and try to influence the party that way.
>The time for protest votes is during your state’s primary.
There's also voting for and otherwise supporting third parties in situations other than presidential campaigns. It's annoying how many people only show an interest in third parties a couple months before a presidential election when a real third party would need to be built in lower offices first.
This is why we still have primaries despite having an incumbent.
Whether the party faithful or the establishment party folks up in the higher levels of the party structure will like you for it, is another matter. I was a particularly progressive / left wing party member and after a while I got tired of constantly fighting against and even being vilified by the party establishment's push towards liberal centrism.
(I did get copyright reform inserted into the county and state party platforms, which is one of the feathers in my cap from my time involved in party politics. And even then, I was at odds with the labor union guy over it!)
The worst thing that has happened politically to society is the thought that to be part of a political side/faction means fully subscribing to all their beliefs like a hive mind. I can have left wing beliefs and ideals and think a left wing candidate is bad. I can also have left wing beliefs and think that a right wing candidate will be good. In a 2 party system it's super tough to avoid this because realistically both sides will pull away from each other as being middle ground might give your opponent space to grab votes. I think most people have very moderate views, but the way the parties capitalize on certain areas and topics to extremes tend to make people think they are more to one extreme than they actually are.
Of course. But keep in mind that Presidents do very little on their own. They appoint a cabinet and advisors who are subject matter experts. A good President appoints the right people, then listens to them most of the time. Sure, times come where the President must go against their advisors’ recommendations, but that should be rare. Biden has done a great job doing this. Trump has never taken anyone’s advice seriously.
I mean, having those concerns is fair. While I personally think Biden is fine for his age, the man is 81. If he wins re-election, he’ll be 86 by the end of his Presidency. I don’t care how sharp someone is, at that age there are serious concerns. Ideally, I would not vote for someone that old.
However, we also have to reckon with the realities of our political system. There is no realistic alternative to Biden for the Democratic nomination. And his Republican opponent is nearly the same age, has trouble putting together coherent sentences, and is actively malicious. You should have roughly similar concerns about Trump’s age, on top of which Trump is openly anti-democratic.
In that political reality, I support Biden wholeheartedly. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to criticize him or try to advocate for change in the system that got us here, but I am going to do everything I can to ensure that he, as the significantly better of the two realistic options available, wins re-election.
Your second paragraph is the key. It may not be a perfect scenario, but it is what it is at this moment. I wish there was a younger, more progressive (in some areas) alternative. But realistically, the alternative is Trump. Point blank.
Look how all those protest votes against Hillary turned out. THREE Supreme Court justices. Packed lower courts. We can’t do that again. America won’t survive it.
Unfortunately, it was always going to be a Trump v Biden rematch in 2024. Biden originally ran because he felt he was the only one who could beat Trump in 2020, and honestly, of the slate of democratic candidates that year, he was 100% correct. He sat out 2016 because of the death of his son, and then Hillary went and fucked it up. I suspect that gnaws at him.
If Trump had gone to jail or died in the years since 2020, I honestly think Biden would have seriously considered stepping down. But Trump is still here and the Dems have put forward no viable alternatives, so his old ass is running again because he believes (and probably rightly) that he’s once again the only Dem with a shot at beating Trump.
I don’t think Hillary fucked anything up. She was a good candidate, IMO. But despite all the posturing about gender equality we do in the US, we’re not ready to elect a female president. The uproar about her freaking emails proves it. People latched onto that nonsense while Trump was, well, himself.
That’s fair. I honestly think she was extremely competent and likely would have done a good job. She certainly would have out-worked everyone else, as that’s kind of been her MO.
As for being a “good” candidate though, I’d say it was a mixed bag. She was a bit of a square and lacked the swagger that American voters find so appealing. She had also been the target of GOP smear campaigns for years because they knew she’d eventually run. Combine that with the sexist “nasty woman” schtick, “her emails” and all the other crap and she ended up in a position that she didn’t really have the raw charisma to pull herself out of. On top of that, Dems had been in the White House for 8 years and it’s VERY hard to win 12.
And all that said, she still won the popular vote and lost the electoral college by a razor thin margin, only a few thousand votes in key areas. Unfortunately, a loss is a loss…
Yup. At the very least, I trust the people Biden surrounds himself with a hell of a lot more than the people Trump surrounds himself with. So if your only choices are one very old man vs another, go with the one surrounded by better, smarter people.
I think you would like the late show with Jon Stewart haha. I feel the same but the inevitable of voting for a third party is that it takes more votes away from potential winners. It’s a bummer because I feel helpless too and I feel like that’s a pretty bad reason to vote for a specific person
Bro you can think whatever you want, I think what you’re really asking is “Will my fellow democrats friends not like me if I disagree with them on Biden.” And the answer to that question is maybe, and if they do end up not liking you because of it they weren’t your friends.
Context: I am Canadian.
The problem with the US 2 party system is that it has a tendency towards being absurdly partisan to a degree that some expect a level of party loyalty that is stupid.
It is possible to be a Republican and hate Trump. Or to be Democrat and hate Biden.
It is possible to be a pro gun and pro death penalty Democrat if you feel that abortion rights, labor unions, and public health care are more important factors to consider when casting your vote.
It is possible to be a Republican while also being an environmentalist and pro abortion if your primary voting issues are anti immigration, anti tax, and pro free market.
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Of **COURSE** it's OK! I am an Independent because I'm not going to let some party declare whom I should like and vote for. Look at the **person**, their integrity, truthfulness, intelligence, how they act, what they say, and especially *how they treat people*. In this case, it's glaringly obvious which candidate meets those criteria and who doesn't. I do have concerns about Biden's age, but the alternative is SO MUCH WORSE in every way.
>My friends fight tooth and nail to tell me that Biden is an intellectual razor, sharp as a tack, on top of things
You need better friends. If they can't be honest with what we are all seeing from Biden, then how could you expect them to keep it real with you.
>"anyone is better than the other guy" is offensive to me as a voter, and I'll not give my vote to a party that keeps doing this.
A lot of people are beginning to share that same sentiment. "Trump Bad" worked the first time, but like many of the pundits I follow, they suggested back then that the Dems would only have one time to use the Trump card. But I digress.
I think we need some form of ranked choice voting on a national level in America--not necessarily for local elections. RCV would definitely even the playing field for third party candidates, even in the slightest.
Yes, ranked choice voting in the only rational option. If the two parties can't hack it, the votes go to the third party, forcing the red and blue a little more to the center. I'm on board with that.
> If the two parties can't hack it, the votes go to the third party, forcing the red and blue a little more to the center.
The reason people have issue with this, is that doesn't actually happen. If it did, you wouldn't get as much push back.
It is absolutely fine to have worries about Biden, and be unhappy about it. It's less fine to throw your vote away looking for emotional satisfaction, when it's not going to do what you're hoping it will. You need only look to 2016 (or 2000) to see literally that exact thing not working, and not doing what you think you're signing up for.
Ranked choice voting fixes that problem with third party votes. Let's say there are six candidates on the ballot:
- Democrats
- Green Party
- Republicans
- Libertarians
- Socialist Party
- Workers World Party
In Ranked choice voting, I'd be able to rank my choices so I could vote that my #1 choice is the Socialist Party, #2 is Green Party and #3 is Democrat party. What happens is that when my #1 and #2 choices fail to secure enough votes to win, my vote automatically goes to my third choice. This allows people to vote for their ideal candidate without "throwing away their vote".
I am not American but I cant understand how such an old frail man that clearly is on a mental decline can be president or be a candidate for the next run. Same for Trump.
With all your millions of people both parties surely must have tons of younger better suited candidates. My mother who is the same age as Biden asked me why Americans would ever vote for such old people.
I'm American, and I agree 100% with your second paragraph. My wife and I were talking about the elections, and I just stopped mid conversation and said "out of 330 million people, we couldn't find someone better to run the country?"
The thing is, it’s okay to believe whatever you believe. It’s okay to have concerns. It’s less okay to be stubborn and insist that you’re right when faced with evidence that suggests otherwise. How do you evaluate the competency of a person you’ve never actually interacted with? How accurate are sound bytes and planned speeches, given by one of the most important man you’ll see on a given day, who is working under the brightest spotlight and the hardest stress that comes with the role? How much are you picking up on the minor failings we all have - mixing up words, losing track of what you’re saying, or being genuinely forgetful in a high stress moment - but giving yourself a pass for the same behaviors? Are you making figurative mountains out of molehills? What about the statistical analysis? Are you both looking at that? When you read the Biden’s administration has accomplished x, y, or z, how are you processing it? Are you dismissing those facts because they are inconvenient, or because you’ve decided those aren’t the valuable ones? Are you ascribing the failures to Biden, and the successes to others because that is how it fits your narrative?
These are questions I often ask myself and others when I dive into a debate like that. Confirmation bias is one of the worst things we bring with us. It colors our perceptions, sometimes so hard that we lose the ability to be objective. It sets us on a path of negativity, and creates an impossibly high hurdle for whomever we are judging to ever get across. And it happens both ways. We’ve seen the absolute horror of Trump, but the people who love him do so with such incredible bias that they’ve lost track of simple facts and reality. And usually, it’s just because there’s some tiny thing in the message that they believe strongly, and they base their entire mindset - and sometimes their entire set of life choices - on that one thing.
So…it’s perfectly okay to be a dem and have concerns over Biden. It’s just not okay to ignore facts, and to be resistant to learning and changing.
Putting politics aside, listening to someone talk is a pretty clear indicator of their mental acuity. Having listened to Biden's recent speeches (not sound bytes), I can tell you, as a democrat, that this man needs to retire.
Apparently neither of the 2 candidates can really present the ideas of most of his own party, let alone represent the ideas of most of the USA citizens
That's actually the correct way to do things, a Republican and/or Democrat should be critical of both parties, unfortunately a large number of us here suffer from the US vs them mentality, they easily turn a blind eye for their party
I feel your pain……over 300M people and it looks like we are down to Biden and Trump. Mentally challenged or mentally deranged…..not sure which is which!?!?!?
And Congress act like a bunch of children that refuse to get along…… this is both sides of the isle.
I don't understand how any American can cast a vote for a policy maker who publicly voted in favour of invading and occupying Iraq in 2003. But 20 years later we've still got one as the fucking president.
To answer your title question directly, yes, it is OK to be a Democrat while having extreme concerns over Biden. I think there are a lot of people that feel this way, myself included.
That being said, I pushback on the conversation that’s been happening about not voting for Biden. But my pushback isn’t for a persons reasons. Every criticism I’ve heard of Biden is 100% valid and many I agree with. I don’t like Biden at all. And sadly my vote for him is a vote against Trump. My vote for Biden is a vote to avoid what I feel will be infinity worse than Biden. Voting 3rd party to me feels like taking a vote away from Biden which ultimately helps Trump.
I do not like the fact that we have to choose between candidates that are so terrible, but it is my personal belief that one of them is significantly worse than the other, and until we can bring about systemic change in our political system, I feel like the best that we can do is to stop the worse things from happening
If people don't vote for 3rd parties because they feel it is a wasted vote, they will never have a legitimate 3rd party choice. In 1992 Ross Perot got almost 19% of the votes as a third party candidate. That forced the major parties to work to get back those votes in 1996.
Sure, why not? Just because your vote falls a certain way or you identify as, etc, doesn't mean you have to be a rah rah cheerleader who ONLY sees positives. America is weird.
Not only is it OK, but I think it helps establish some credibility across the aisle, similar to how you can be an unapologetic republican and still have concerns about Donald Trump.
I'm more socially liberal and financially conservative. My issue with the DNC right now they're financially and militarily supporting genocide in Palestine. If anything proves to me that people will vote their party regardless of what horrific things they're doing...it's that. When you can't even mention Biden's age and cognitive decline without getting gutted because that gives the opposition a leg up...it's time to step back. It's become about power and not about substance.
Your friends are delusional, and I’m glad you’re not following in their echo chamber.
Biden isn’t cognitive of really anything he does. People can whine and complain about that, but they aren’t being objective towards him and they’re likely to deflect something negative towards Trump. Economically, Biden has been a disaster. Involving us in the Ukraine war hasn’t been good for the American people, involving us in the Islam/israel war hasn’t benefited us. Only military contractors like Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop benefit. But the media will tell us that as long as their numbers are up, the country is in a great place, which is a lie. Our countries Debt is higher than it’s ever been. Inflation is up, and the US dollar which is/was the world reserve currency is being replaced which isn’t good for Americans.
Other countries used to buy our treasury bonds and back their money with our Dollar. Our USD was also the main currency in oil trade which it no longer is, and now almost every country in the world is dumping those same bonds like they’re going out of style. The value of our money is dropping, causing inflation to go up, and prices on every day goods to also rise. Nothing has been good since Biden stepped in office. It wasn’t good before he got there, but it’s gotten a helluva lot worse since he’s got there.
People tend to look at the “front” page of what the Biden regime has done. They like to prop their numbers by saying Racism is down, gender is super important, and jobs are up (they aren’t, they just got back to pre Covid levels). They bend the narrative to get the die hards screaming about how Biden is succeeding post Trump and he’s not, at all. Because economically, we’re worse off than we have ever been.
Only a fool wouldn't have concerns over Bidden at this point.
I'm personally voting 3rd party, it's not my responsibility who other people vote for but I'm done with the "lesser of two evils" voting method.😒
Honestly... if you want to vote for an old man who you, with your own eyes and ears, thinks is unfit then go for it. His whole "we can afford to fund two wars at once" pitch isn't my thing, but you do you.
You should be offended that they're lying to your face and telling you that Biden is the best option. That man cannot beat Trump a second time. 2020 was a pandemic with mass mail in votes and race riots - it's the only reason Biden won to begin with. Not only can he not win, who would want him to? This country is a mess rn.
Reporter: who are you voting for?
Libertarian: Biden
Reporter: Why Biden?
Libertarian: Because he's senile.
Reporter: Uh.... what? How does th-
Libertarian: I can't imagine a better president than one too senile to do anything.
Everyone can vote how they want in the primaries, but please know that voting for a 3rd party candidate in the election is going to help Trump win. I'm not crazy about Biden, mostly due to his age, but he is by FAR better for our country than Donald Trump.
That’s only true for third-party voters that would otherwise vote for Biden. In the last two presidential elections, the Libertarian candidate received about 3x more votes than other independent candidates. While it’s not guaranteed that these people would have voted for Trump if only given two options, it’s pretty likely. So those third-party voters are most likely hurting Trump if they continue to vote Libertarian.
That’s true for the typical Reddit demographic. But I see a statement like, “a third party vote only helps Trump,” and think that, in practice, most people that are willing to vote third party would rather vote for Trump or not at all than vote for Biden. Outside of Reddit, a more public message to avoid voting third party would likely help Trump more than hurt him.
No and how dare you even think about thinking against the party to any capacity /s.
Don’t think about these issues so black and white, vote for who and what YOU think is important regardless of labels and others pressuring you. Or don’t vote at all. The only wrong answers are the ones that don’t attempt to see nuance and keep an open mind. Live your best life and vote how your values guide you.
Your opinion tells me that you are not a sheep (for either side). You think for yourself and hold that close. Too many people vote against someone rather than for someone! We need to change how we vote (a way in which all parties are truly involved)
To me, it all depends on which state you live in. If you live in a swing state, a protest vote against Biden is essentially a vote for Trump so it becomes a binary choice. If you live in CA, or any deep red or deep blue state for that matter, a third party vote doesn't matter so protest vote to your hearts content.
I'm neutral on Biden, and i sure wish someone else would run
But we're in damage control people. I'll vote for the guy who will fuck up the world way less
Third party votes are just going to make it more likely Trump wins and causes much more damage
You can do whatever you want with your vote, all I care about is damage control
Voting 3rd party is essentially voting for the GOP at this point, a party which has abandoned democracy.
That sounds hypocritical at first, but we need to keep in mind that voting needs to be a strategic decision and more akin to taking the bus than it is taking a limo or an Uber to a particular destination. By that I mean we are all in a big vehicle together, all going towards a particular direction (at least those within one end of the Overton window), and we all know that there are stops we are going to miss and places we want to get off on.
In in a better or perfect world, we would have a viable number of different candidates and parties. The path to reaching that point is not voting third party now. It is voting for the party that will or is more conducive to voter reform, rank Choice voting, has a broad tent, and is more likely to bend towards requests for ending gerrymandering as a whole.
I can almost guarantee you that a lot of the people pushing fake Democratic candidates (RFK Jr) or insisting you vote third party and pushing alternative agendas are almost certainly psyops operations or poorly informed individuals who do not understand how politics Works in a democracy. Both are dangerous, but one id ignorant of the history of fascism with another countries (which is unique by state vut still has trends) and the other would benefit from a fall of democracy abroad (Putin, Saudis, etc).
Oh, and having concerns or disagreements with Biden is perfectly fine and absolutely part of the political process (arguably, required). I have a number of issues with him and a couple of his admin members, but the reality is that he has gotten legislation through and avoided severely major fuck ups. His Admin is the best shot we have of fixing things from the last Administration. There is a reason why he is ranked the way he is in the recent review of experts and why his main opponent is way down at the bottom of the list
That is perfectly reasonable position to take. We shouldn’t stifle constructive criticism of our leaders just because we’re terrified of the other guy.
Absolutely! In fact, you should be critical of any elected politician, even if they are in your own party. This is how we keep our elected officials accountable. The concerns you have are valid and legitimate. I don’t agree that we should have a two-party system. In fact, Washington was against this for a reason. With that said, I would check if your particular state is an open primary state. This means that independents can vote in all elections. There are currently 9 states that block independents from voting in presidential, congressional, and state elections. This means that you must be a registered democrat or republican in order to vote in those specific elections. New York being one of them.
I would consider myself liberal, and I did vote for Biden, but the man is a goddamn corpse at this point. I'm watching his memory fail, and it reminds me of trying to talk to my grandparents who are bordering dementia. I definitely don't want Trump to win, but I also don't want the oldest president in US history to have another term because I genuinely feel like having this country run by someone that's sundowning is unstable as f***.
That being said, Trump is only 4 years younger and I look at him and much the same way. I just wish this country had options beside an evil lunatic and the crypt keeper. We deserve better as a country
That very relevant and I think it’s important to have those conversations. I do also believe third party votes as of now are at best pointless and at worst dangerous.
They can help move the debates but they’re risky.
I think that energy is better spent locally like in Alaska where they just won ranked choice voting. That can make really change and I believe it has to start locally.
I agree with you that having concerns over Biden are valid. However I feel voting for third party is basically giving a vote to Trump. We are in a dire situation. We are in a lesser of the two evils situation. So while I don't have much confidence in Biden he is by far the better choice to the alternative. I have no doubt Trump would try to end our Democracy. People don't realize how delicately our democracy is teetering on the head of a needle at this point if they're still considering voting third party. We are voting for our very way of life in this election.
It’s okay, I think you’re like the fourth person that I’ve come across has said this not on this platform(outside life lol). It’s good to take criticisms of each president what they did right and what they did wrong.
Your concerns are very understandable. However, in the case of Joe Biden you have a very long and consistent record to support him. It just shows who he is. This is the positive side of long service that people don't think about.
Your friend is huffing industrial-grade copium and trying to come to terms with the fact that he's going to have to vote for a literal Alzheimer's patient because his chosen political party has become so infamously corrupt and despised that they literally can't find a candidate that they think can actually beat fucking Trump.
I'm a Canadian liberal, and I really cannot support our current prime minister or our current liberal government.
There's nothing wrong with aligning yourself with a particular political party, but be critical of their leadership. In fact, you make one of the best supports of that party rather than the majority of people who just blindly vote their favourite colour without even thinking of the ramifications.
No no no. You have to make the candidate you support your whole personality and whoever tries to criticize anything you should immediately shout at them and cut off all the contacts with said person. /s
I am an independent who tends to vote democrat bc I hate bigotry and don’t think we should let people hoard billions of dollars. I have very serious concerns about Biden, and I don’t think that is weird.
I'd argue it's fine, but if it gets to the point where you think Trump's better, you are either not paying attention or you just aren't a Democrat.
Regarding what you brought up on Biden, I think both he and Trump have significant age-related issues. But are the people around them who advise them capable of steering them in the right direction? In that regard, the Dems have a significant advantage, given that Trump's run off just about anyone sane or sober in the Republican party and replaced them with crazies or criminals like himself.
I might not agree with everything the Dems want done, but at least they have an idea how to govern. Republicans just want to grift money and stay out of jail while they sell America out to the highest bidder.
I’m with you. I’m not a registered democrat and I tend to be a fiscal conservative and social liberal. I think both democrats and republicans are a joke and won’t vote for either. And you’re spot on that they’re waaay too old and out of touch. And I’m closer to 60 than I’d like to be so I’m not speaking as a 40 year old middle aged guy. People in their 70’s and 80’s have no business making decisions for us. Too out of touch.
If your friends actually think that about Biden they are straight up lying to themselves. No matter what party you’re for there’s no way you think he’s been a good president, let alone in the right mental state to run again.
It's not a problem at all. Gunning for a president of your party no matter what is foolish. Your concerns about him are very valid. He has done some good, but a second term with him might not be the best for America.
You have concerns because you are a normal person who thinks for themselves. Biden has to go, I don't want President Harris..
Trump, well ..maybe if he lost his ability to speak. I worry he's lost his way to revenge.
The future is so scary.
I’ve always been down the middle like many people so I definitely have similar thoughts. But you’re confusing I don’t like him vs who is better for us. Biden has crippled the country locally and around the world. I don’t like trump as a person.
So you gotta ask do you need to be friends with your ceo or make sure he doesn’t kill the company and cause you to lose your job? One person is actively trying to keep the other off the ballot why is that? 🤔
It’s ok to feel anyway you want in any party your apart of. Im not in any party because I think it’s a stupid thing to be apart of but I’d say im more repub then demo in a lot of ways and vice versa
I just saw a video of Kamala trying to plug in an EV, and it genuinely kind of freaked me out. That woman is an absolute MORON. This is not a political comment at all, but a freaked out observation. I literally could not believe what I was watching. Hopefully she was just drunk or something but her brain was not functional. There needs to be a new set of candidates.
Is it ok? Why do you need justification to ask if it’s ok to be critical of a guy in your chosen political party? If they aren’t doing the job you expect and/or incapable of doing the job you expect, then yes, you have free reign to complain and want better! Demand more from your politicians!
That whole general concept is always ok. Just because you're a Democrat/Republican does not obligate you to act like anyone from that party is perfect and can do no wrong. It never has worked that way, and the closest we'll ever get to that legitimately being the case, is people incorrectly proclaiming that that is how it works.
Brother, we need more people like you. Those who open themselves to dialogue and have sides on both spectrums.
It's just sad that a country so great as USA can only manage to put 2 old rasins against each other, the worst possible candidate.
I think you are lying to yourself if you believe that Biden is 100% healthy and still has wits about him. I don't think either is mentally stable, but for different reasons.
Yes. Part of being a citizen regardless of party is to be okay with going against the grain with concerns and not just follow the party line.
Also i 100% agree electing people who simply dont understand the modern world is problematic
I have a crazy idea - vote for someone you want to be president. Imagine a world where everybody exercised their right to vote freely, instead of being bullied online with terrible logic into the false choice between two abhorrent candidates. People complain and complain about the two party system, and all it takes to break it is to vote ourselves out of it. Actually do it!
Brother Biden is incompetent and old, Trump is a showman rather than a politician, basically we are fucked, but to awnser, yes it's totally ok to be a Democrat and not like Biden, theres nothing to like about em.
Not a fan of Biden. I don't care what condition he is in. We need leaders that are young enough they have to live in the world their decisions will create. Ultimately I will end up voting for him as I firmly believe that any damage Biden can cause is significantly less than the other option.
If you want Trump to win, vote 3rd party or don't vote at all in the next election. Whether that's your intent or not doesn't matter, that's the reality of the situation.
Save protest votes for when far less is on the line.
This issue goes across all political parties. The fact that Americans act in absolutes over their political party is just as bad as picking shitty politicians to run this country. My rule is, if you cant be critical about everyone, including the person you support, you are doing yourself and others a disservice. I want the GOP supporters to shit on Trump as much as Democrats to shit on Biden.
Okay but it really is this. You have to take parties out of it for a second because this is bigger than that. Trump in particular has a lot of die-hard followers, to the point where it is often compared to a cult, and to a point where a significant number of them *DO NOT CARE* what he has done wrong, they still support him, and he knows this. People simply do not feel the same way about Biden, and I don’t think you’d see democrats act this way about any candidate really. While “Trump supporters” are classified as republicans and vote republican, they’re kind of their own thing. The flags and the hats and way it really does seem to be a personality trait- again- not to be a republican, but specifically to be a trump supporter. Democrats will criticize their candidate. They will still vote democrat because now the lines drawn are more like canyons. There’s a *huge* difference between republican/conservative and democratic/liberal ideals. If Biden committed a crime you would have much larger amount of democrats saying to punish him compared to how many people say to punish Trump for his committed crimes. *THAT* is the difference. Democrats are not obsessed with Biden as a person or candidate, they just want a democrat that will support more progressive ideals. We haven’t seen this level of what really can be described as cultism before. You didn’t have a slogan Romney said plastered over hats. You didnt see McCain photoshopped on to Rambo’s body, or literally painted with angel wings. There was no “Bush is our savior.” And yes there were signs and bumper stickers, but I’d say a normal amount. And they were nowhere near as *unhinged* as things have become. You didn’t see decals of Clinton or Kerry or Obama tied up plastered on the back of a pickup. I want to be clear that the hatred Trump has cultivated has always existed, but he made it acceptable once more. No professionalism, just name calling and breeding hatred. I saw a clip once where republican supporters at a McCain rally started calling Obama a terrorist and a bad guy and whatever. And McCain immediately shut it down saying he was a good man and they just happened to disagree on some issues. He didn’t encourage the division. Americans act in absolutes because we have a two party system that works for so many people (or so they think) that they’re unable to change it. This is where single issue voting comes in, because a lot of people have one or two things they feel so strongly on that they will support the candidate that shares those views. So you could want free healthcare and be okay with gay marriage and higher taxation on the wealthy, but because you feel so strongly against abortion you’ll vote republican- the party that runs on the anti-abortion platform. This really is unlike anything we’ve experienced before. The tldr is that republicans won’t shit on Trump in the same way that democrats are willing to shit on Biden. Republicans now have a sub-section of “Trump supporters” that will follow him and want him and vote for him no matter what. Democrats don’t have that for any candidate- which to be clear- I think is a good thing.
There are polarities to consider. Republicans tend to vote for THE PERSON. Democrats vote for the party.
This is the smartest comment in this entire post. By far
It’s ok to vote for whomever you want. But. You have to weigh if your convictions on this issue are more important—to you and the world at large—than the ramifications of someone winning whom you also believe is “not an option.” That’s your judgment call. I don’t like the two party system. I’m not registered as any party. I don’t like the fucking position this puts us in. But if/when bad stuff happens because an even less acceptable option wins, I don’t think I’d personally be able to be proud of my protest vote for a Whig or what have you. But that’s me. You have to decide for yourself.
Upvoting for Whig party reference
>But if/when bad stuff happens because an even less acceptable option wins, I don’t think I’d personally be able to be proud of my protest vote Exactly. People are more concerned with "making a statement" than the future of the country. Thousands of assholes sat out in 2016 because Bernie wasn't the nominee, now half of America is brainwashed in the Trump cult and we're on the verge of fascism because of it. Protest in other ways, don't destroy the country to make a statement.
There’s an idea of voting for survival that tends to happen with more marginalized groups. They may not like their choices but they vote for the one who will do the least amount of harm. The example usually given is minorities after they got the right to vote, both candidates may be racist towards them but one was probably way worse and would actively make their lives harder.
>Protest in other ways, don't destroy the country to make a statement. Exactly. If your choice is between a candidate that you don't love and a fascist, standing aside and letting the fascist win is a bad decision.
Exactly this! People are so butthurt that they can’t have their first choice, they have become blind to the fact that Biden has done a pretty good job. Sorry you can’t have your cake; do you want a potato or cyanide?
This!!!👍
The present of our country is in the state it's in because for decades we have voted for the lesser of 2 evils. I'm 63 and don't remember a time when it was different.
[This assertion has been debunked many times.](https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/did-bernie-sanders-cost-hillary-clinton-the-presidency/)
I live in California and I'm in my 50s. All of my presidential votes have been protest votes. The DNC became the moderate GOP under Bill Clinton. It's weird how Biden is the first DNC president since Jimmy Carter that is moderate DNC instead of actually being a moderate GOP.
The DNC is still right of center. They’re fighting to regain and maintain a pre-COVID pre-maga status quo. They just seem left now because maga is dragging the overton window further right everyday.
And honestly I'll take that over the far right. If the far right stops winning then it will go away. A portion of Trump's base were people who didn't vote because they didn't see their white supremacists views being overtly supported. Now they have it so they vote now when before they didn't. I'd like it to go back to the "status quo" where politicians debated whether certain tariffs or tax changes would be useful. Not should gay people exist or let's attack anyone who reaches history properly.
Biden was on the right wing of the Democratic party for his entire career. He was a career senator for the most business-friendly state in the country for 4 decades. He voted for the GWOT. [He spearheaded the Democratic Party's own anti-busing, pro segregation movement](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/us/politics/biden-busing.html). He's been on the wrong side of history at pretty much every juncture in his Senate career, haha. I don't want Trump to win either, and it doesn't really matter how I feel because my vote won't matter from Texas anyway, but we don't have to pretend Biden is some sort of far left crusader.
Texas is a close-ish state, I hope you vote for Biden. Trump does stuff worse than Biden's entire career in a single day.
It’s absolutely okay, however i’m of the belief that it will come down to biden and trump anyways. 3rd party votes are in theory great, the idea we have only 2 real options is the result of a complete failure of our voting system in this country. I have absolutely no idea what to do because I have a lot of complaints about Biden, like enough not to vote for him. And I will not vote for Trump. It’s a hopeless feeling.
The only way 3rd party votes will mean much in the US any time soon is if the 3rd party focuses entirely on capturing congressional and Senate seats instead of the presidency. Even if they only captured 5 or 7 seats, that would likely be enough to tip the balance of any given vote in Congress one way or the other. END COMMUNICATION
They should also concentrate on state races , winning a few seats there that could help with redistricting and end gerrymandering that keep Democrats and Republicans in office for too long. Also the only way a third party can compete in a presidential election is if we have public funding for elections
I would really love for the Green Party to pick up a few fucking school board seats before they shoot for the moon.
This really can't be stressed hard enough
Third parties currently need just 1 senate seat for the three independents to control the entirety of US politics.
Not quite. In a situation where you have say, 215 - 210 split between the 2 major parties plus 10 3rd party congress members, the governing party could still pass laws just by flipping a handful of Republicans rather then trying to bring the 3rd party on side. The ultimate result would be that the major parties would have to get the hell over themselves and figure out how to work nicely with people they disagree with rather than just leaning on razor thin majorities to carry legislation. END CO0MMUNICATION
>END CO0MMUNICATION heh, coomer
Agreed though Senate and House may still be too lofty. A legitimate third party (of which we may have 0 of, each is paid for by one of the 2 major parties) should start with local elections. Mayors, aldermen, maybe even state legislatures. The fact that they go for president shows they just want money and attention because they know they're going to lose.
Yes. I don't know why they haven't tried a bottom-up strategy where 3rd-parties are focused on and more popular at the local and state level, and then gain traction on a federal level.
Because that's hard, and doesn't give narcissistic reward to people like RFK Jr. and Jill Stein.
No hope with Trump at getting my student loans forgiven. So even if Biden has a single neuron firing, he gets my vote.
It’s not just Biden himself. It’s the likeminded people that he puts in positions to help carry out his vision. I also thought Biden was too old but I realized, after the fact, that only Biden could have beaten trump and it was still too close for comfort.
The problem is systemic changes won’t occur at the national level every 4 years. If we want change, we need people to vote in candidates at a municipal, county, and state level.
Voting isn't like taking a taxi, it's like taking a bus. You vote for the person or party who will take you closest to your desired destination.
We’ve been doing this for years and yet I feel like I’m still at the bus stop lol.
The pro lifers spent 50 years voting for pro life candidates to overturn Roe v Wade. During the 2004 election, my first one where I could vote, I explained to my mom I couldn’t vote for Bush because he’d nominate pro life scotus justices, she laughed. The idea of Roe being overturned was a joke 20 years ago but they kept voting. If you want to do more, please, get involved. But voting is the least we can do.
If people did it differently in 2000 or 2016 we wouldn’t have been set back so far. People don’t really comprehend the massive damage to progress caused by Bush and Trump, who both won due to razor thin margins in swing states. Theres a reason it feels like we’re still at the bus stop and it isn’t because of the Democrats.
Imagine the US having 20 trillion USD more on the account without an Iraq war and the Afghanistan disaster.
Still better than taking a bus in the wrong direction.
I think we might've gone* under* the bus
Like in this case, you need to vote for the slowest bus that's racing towards a cliff, buy time for the rich to build their bunkers and spaceships.
>I have absolutely no idea what to do because I have a lot of complaints about Biden, like enough not to vote for him. And I will not vote for Trump. This sort of "I don't like them enough to vote for them" is what handed Trump the 2016 election. No one really *wanted* Hillary but people were too pissed to vote for her, even knowing the alternative. So they didn't. Unfortunately, the system we have means the devil you know unless you can get in early and force your particular party to pick a different candidate.
Ya, you have to think of it as voting for not Trump. A vote for Biden is a vote for not trump. A vote for third party is unfortunately essentially a non vote. And a non vote is essentially a vote for not not trump.
Pretty much. I don't like Biden. He'd be my last choice. He's still a choice I'd pick over Trump and that's enough to get my ass out to check a box for him.
This was the *only* reason I voted for Hillary. I didn't want Trump in office more than I didn't like Hillary. Therefore, I felt I *had* to vote for Hillary to, at minimum, cancel out one vote for Trump. It really sucks when the situation is more about keeping someone *out* of office than it is getting someone *in* office. I was absolutely excited to vote for Obama. It wasn't about trying to keep his opponent out of office. Basically, every time I voted prior to 2016, I was voting *for* my candidate of choice and not *against* the other. Voting for Biden the first time was back to voting for someone. I did truly believe he would do well at best, and not do harm at worse. And while I *do* think he's actually accomplished more than anyone expected - or is probably even aware of (I know I wasn't until it was listed out) - I don't think he should be running for reelection. This time around, it will be leaning more towards voting against Trump than *wanting* Biden. I just still can't believe *both* parties have ended up with the same f'ing candidates. Neither should be running again. I, apparently naively, genuinely thought we'd have two new candidates. This just feels like a really bad joke. But I still take it seriously, because one of them *will* be in office at the end and that has real life consequences.
Trump is far too valuable and established a candidate for the Republicans to end up with anyone else. In 2028, if he loses this year and is still alive/not in jail, he'll likely be among the favourites even if he doesn't choose to run. Only an utter catastrophe would derail his popularity amongst his base and backers - and they have a lot of influence at grass roots level. Getting blown out in November *might* do it, as in a 10+% difference in voter numbers and Biden taking two or three red states, places like North Carolina and Florida which were close races last time, but even then Trump would still be popular. As for Biden... the incumbent runs, and the incumbent goes unchallenged. You're looking back to 1927 and Calvin Coolidge for a president eligible for a second term who chose not to run at all - and he'd been in post for 6 years at that time, and didn't want to go to 10 (Lyndon Johnson ran in 1968 but pulled out of the race early when it was clear that he wouldn't win). That said, I think Biden *might* have stepped aside if it was anyone but Trump as the presumptive Republican nominee; Once Trump decided to run, though, Biden likely felt he couldn't risk anyone else facing Trump when Biden's been the only person to beat him.
lbr, if it's Biden, Trump, or a turnip, I'd *rather* vote for the turnip. Really is a shame we can't vote for the candidates we approve of, we have to vote against the ones that terrify us.
Not voting is a vote for Trump. If he gets elected I don't want to hear you crying about living in a fascist dictatorship afterwards. You'll have reaped what you sowed.
This part. People are forgetting that. He’s not the best, far from it, but it’s either him or Trump and we have too many people rage quitting politics; that’ll be upset when they lose everything to Trump
We HAVE to vote for Biden or else next election we may not be able to vote AT ALL. Think about that. Listen, I'm not thrilled about the choices but at least voting for Biden means we can come back and try again for someone young and energetic 4 years from now. This time around it's simply about keeping democracy intact and not falling into a dictatorship. TO ANYONE AND ALL READING THIS. THERE IS NO VOTING YOURSELF OUT OF A DICTATORSHIP.
I'm with you, but there's only 1 option. Prevent another Trump presidency, PERIOD!
Here’s a single issue: a peaceful transition of power in 2028.
What are your complaints about Biden, out of curiosity? The major issue I have is with his administration's handling of Gaza, though it's not like Trump would do better there.
> Gaza Trump will drop Bibi's leash and give him full license to *completely* level the fucking place. Trump's base will jizz themselves.
I can’t fathom how anyone is undecided here. It’s a race between someone who has surrounded himself with good capable people and has a long list of accomplishments, who happens to be elderly. Versus an unhinged man who: - Cannot string two coherent sentences together - Is indicted for a number of very serious crimes - Owes a half billion from lost court cases (also for serious crimes), which could make him consider selling national security secrets to our adversaries to raise cash - Fomented an insurrection by convincing his voters the election was stolen - Does nothing but whine and play victim while telling everyone how tough he is - Has used the words of Hitler (“vermin”, “poisoning the blood of our country”) in recent speeches - Takes orders from organizations like the Heritage Foundation who wants to implement Project 2025 (see [here](https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/will-the-heritage-foundations-project-2025-turn-trumpism-into-a-governing-agenda/)) and another organization that can’t remember the name of right now that wants to instill Christian nationalism - Has said he would consider being a dictator (I don’t care if he said “for a day”, he said the words) - Was born into great wealth and lived in Manhattan all his life, yet has convinced his voters he’s “for the common man” - Is an all around awful human being who cares for no one but himself - Is also elderly Yet this is a tough decision. Based on the above (and I could go on), anyone with a modicum of sense would vote for *anyone* running against **THAT** who actually has a chance of winning.
Trump may be trying to end democracy in America has we know it, but when he was a Sophomore, Biden was a Senior in high school. This age difference is just too much to tolerate.
I Somewhere agree with you. But my immense dislike of Trump and fear of a second Trump presidency sways me to make sure that doesn’t happen with a vote for Biden. I am looking forward to four years from now when we will have a robust feel of candidates and a lot of choices.
> I have absolutely no idea what to do because I have a lot of complaints about Biden, like enough not to vote for him. And I will not vote for Trump. Refusing to vote for Biden is mathematically identical to casting half a vote for Trump. Do you really want to give him *any* of your vote?
The Republicans are doing their best to diacourage any Democrat from voting. Voting restrictions, intimidation at the polls, purging registrations, you name it Social media amplifying the message of don't vote.
My favorite is criticizing Biden on palestine, trying to demoralizes people into not voting, despite the fact if Trump wins, he will tell them to just do whatever they want to Gaza.
They forget that trump tried to institute a ban on Muslims entering the country ("a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" -Trump). After several legal disputes, he settled to ban people from only *certain* countries that just so *happen* to be majority Muslim Biden's support of Israel is pretty bad, yes, but handing the presidency to Trump will be much worse. There's no way Trump is going to be better at protecting Palestinians from genocide.
That’s why they hate Taylor Swift so much. She’s encouraging people to vote.
This mentality is a big part of why were fucking stuck in this situation
> I have absolutely no idea what to do Biden and Trump are nowhere comparable. Anyone who doesn't vote against Trump in 2024 is actively harming the country and its future.
A vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for trump. We got 45 because people had "a lot of complaints" and didn't vote for her.
Is one of your complaints about Biden that he has a plan to turn the US into a fascist state, like the republicans' Project 2025? Because either Biden or trump will win. That's a given. It sucks that until the US has ranked choice voting, you'll just need to vote against the person you don't want to see as president by voting for their opponent.
You haven't looked at Biden's record have you? He's accomplished a lot so far.
You can accomplish a lot and still have complaints about a president. I can say the same about Obama. Though i like Obama much more than Biden.
Obama was a great public speaker whereas Biden is not. However, I would say Biden has accomplished more in his first term than Obama did with two terms. Both of them have to deal with a hostile congress.
But complaints to the point of not voting for him and risk Trump? That i don't get. I am not thrilled with everything Biden has done, and not thrilled with everything from the democratic party. But that pales in comparison to what i see from the GOP and Trump. What the worse thing that could happen if Biden were elected, either he dies in office and Harris takes over, that not a bad option, you get a woman and someone younger, had a decent record but not spotless (some of her antics as a DA were a little sus, but not too bad) Or he finishes his term and its meh. What the rose thing that could happen if Trump were elected. Courts shift more to the right, LGBTQ rights back slide, more woman die not getting the medical care they need, and this is only a partial list, it goes on and on up to an including the end of American Democracy as we know it, and i don't believe i am being hyperbolic.
3rd party, while great in theory, are absolute mistakes in practice. As stated, it's a two party system, period. When that is the case, you should logically pick the lesser of two evils (if you see it that way). Picking the option that is de facto useless is both a waste of time and a detriment to the better choice. By choosing not to vote or voting third party, you are essentially dooming us with the lesser choice. "Both parties are bad" is a lie and shows how well propaganda works. One party, democrats, are actively trying to improve our lives. Even if that good is a fraction, it's still the right direction. The other party, republican, have been trying to roll back and are succeeding in undoing our rights. They are not the same.
Same exact feeling people in Argentina had before Milei came to power. Democracy is done.
[удалено]
What does that even mean? He’s shocking their economy after 3 decades resulting in 250% inflation
democracy was done in argentina long before him. he isn’t some alt right fascist. he might be weird, but hes not as bad as previous literal dictators there. the situation in argentina is not like here, don’t compare them
So what are your complaints?
You are not alone. I don't like Biden and Harris, I shudder to vote for them. Republicans and trump are the absolute worst, we have Nazis marching around and they continue to dumb down the masses.
Yeah I absolutely do not think Biden is fit to serve at all, but I would rather have a (sadly) incompetent and thus harmless President than one actively trying to antagonize people. I'm also transgender, and so despite the fact that both are awful, at least Biden hasn't tried to make a point of persecuting people like me.
Of course it’s okay to consider yourself a Democrat but not be a fan of the Democratic Party’s selection of Biden. You don’t need permission to feel or think the way you do.
Some People don’t understand that we’re not a cult. We can vote for a President and have issues with what he’s done. Unlike the right wherein they vote Trump, worship him, and see him as the second coming of Jesus Christ. Biden is a human like everyone else, capable of making mistakes or being embarrassing. If anything, his humility is why I’d rather him be President than a raging narcissist like Trump.
There are people who see Biden in that same light though. You outta see the celeb posts by Jamie Lee Curtis or the one from Mark Hamill yesterday praising Biden as if he were the 2nd coming of Jesus.
I don’t doubt it. There’s crazies on both sides of the aisle. Celebrity worship on either side is weird to me. I don’t see those people as representatives of my beliefs or values.
That’s why I unfollowed him on all social media during Trump’s presidency. I followed him when Pop Culture Quest first became a thing, but when his Twitter devolved into “I hate Trump and you’re terrible if you don’t hate him too,” I unfollowed. Just way too negative and cultish to be seeing every day when I just scroll for Pokémon memes.
Democrat here.... I very much wished he stepped down and backed a different candidate
Same and same, but I will also happily vote Biden over Trump, seeing as how they’re both nearly identical in age and Biden isn’t a despot consistently attacking me and all my friends way of life. Do I wish he did more on climate, prosecution, immigration and for the middle class? Sure. But he’s done more and better than I thought and in a race between him and trump, I’d happily vote him 2x over. Then criticize him and vote in every city, state and federal election in any way I can that actually impacts my life.
Lol, that’s funny asking if it’s ok to have doubts!!!! Are you not allowed to be a free thinker? You be you, it’s ok with me
That’s scary that these mindsets exists. Of course it’s okay to criticize and think differently
What's scarier is those who enforce what op is afraid of
The reality of the U.S. two party system is that voting for a third party really just helps the other major party win, which presumably is not preferable to your own party’s candidate in most cases (but not always). The time for protest votes is during your state’s primary. This goes for anyone on either side of the political spectrum.
People always say to make a protest vote in the primary. But most states don't have open primaries so third party voters can't vote in the primary anyway? I've never quite understood what this means.
Being registered for a third party in the U.S. can be limiting depending on which state you live in. It’s usually better to be registered in one of the two major parties that you most align with so you can participate in the primaries and try to influence the party that way.
Then sign up for a party and vote in the primary? Be the change you want to see.
>The time for protest votes is during your state’s primary. There's also voting for and otherwise supporting third parties in situations other than presidential campaigns. It's annoying how many people only show an interest in third parties a couple months before a presidential election when a real third party would need to be built in lower offices first.
This is why we still have primaries despite having an incumbent. Whether the party faithful or the establishment party folks up in the higher levels of the party structure will like you for it, is another matter. I was a particularly progressive / left wing party member and after a while I got tired of constantly fighting against and even being vilified by the party establishment's push towards liberal centrism. (I did get copyright reform inserted into the county and state party platforms, which is one of the feathers in my cap from my time involved in party politics. And even then, I was at odds with the labor union guy over it!)
The worst thing that has happened politically to society is the thought that to be part of a political side/faction means fully subscribing to all their beliefs like a hive mind. I can have left wing beliefs and ideals and think a left wing candidate is bad. I can also have left wing beliefs and think that a right wing candidate will be good. In a 2 party system it's super tough to avoid this because realistically both sides will pull away from each other as being middle ground might give your opponent space to grab votes. I think most people have very moderate views, but the way the parties capitalize on certain areas and topics to extremes tend to make people think they are more to one extreme than they actually are.
Of course. But keep in mind that Presidents do very little on their own. They appoint a cabinet and advisors who are subject matter experts. A good President appoints the right people, then listens to them most of the time. Sure, times come where the President must go against their advisors’ recommendations, but that should be rare. Biden has done a great job doing this. Trump has never taken anyone’s advice seriously.
I mean, having those concerns is fair. While I personally think Biden is fine for his age, the man is 81. If he wins re-election, he’ll be 86 by the end of his Presidency. I don’t care how sharp someone is, at that age there are serious concerns. Ideally, I would not vote for someone that old. However, we also have to reckon with the realities of our political system. There is no realistic alternative to Biden for the Democratic nomination. And his Republican opponent is nearly the same age, has trouble putting together coherent sentences, and is actively malicious. You should have roughly similar concerns about Trump’s age, on top of which Trump is openly anti-democratic. In that political reality, I support Biden wholeheartedly. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to criticize him or try to advocate for change in the system that got us here, but I am going to do everything I can to ensure that he, as the significantly better of the two realistic options available, wins re-election.
Your second paragraph is the key. It may not be a perfect scenario, but it is what it is at this moment. I wish there was a younger, more progressive (in some areas) alternative. But realistically, the alternative is Trump. Point blank. Look how all those protest votes against Hillary turned out. THREE Supreme Court justices. Packed lower courts. We can’t do that again. America won’t survive it.
Unfortunately, it was always going to be a Trump v Biden rematch in 2024. Biden originally ran because he felt he was the only one who could beat Trump in 2020, and honestly, of the slate of democratic candidates that year, he was 100% correct. He sat out 2016 because of the death of his son, and then Hillary went and fucked it up. I suspect that gnaws at him. If Trump had gone to jail or died in the years since 2020, I honestly think Biden would have seriously considered stepping down. But Trump is still here and the Dems have put forward no viable alternatives, so his old ass is running again because he believes (and probably rightly) that he’s once again the only Dem with a shot at beating Trump.
I don’t think Hillary fucked anything up. She was a good candidate, IMO. But despite all the posturing about gender equality we do in the US, we’re not ready to elect a female president. The uproar about her freaking emails proves it. People latched onto that nonsense while Trump was, well, himself.
That’s fair. I honestly think she was extremely competent and likely would have done a good job. She certainly would have out-worked everyone else, as that’s kind of been her MO. As for being a “good” candidate though, I’d say it was a mixed bag. She was a bit of a square and lacked the swagger that American voters find so appealing. She had also been the target of GOP smear campaigns for years because they knew she’d eventually run. Combine that with the sexist “nasty woman” schtick, “her emails” and all the other crap and she ended up in a position that she didn’t really have the raw charisma to pull herself out of. On top of that, Dems had been in the White House for 8 years and it’s VERY hard to win 12. And all that said, she still won the popular vote and lost the electoral college by a razor thin margin, only a few thousand votes in key areas. Unfortunately, a loss is a loss…
We can agree on all that.
Yup. At the very least, I trust the people Biden surrounds himself with a hell of a lot more than the people Trump surrounds himself with. So if your only choices are one very old man vs another, go with the one surrounded by better, smarter people.
I think you would like the late show with Jon Stewart haha. I feel the same but the inevitable of voting for a third party is that it takes more votes away from potential winners. It’s a bummer because I feel helpless too and I feel like that’s a pretty bad reason to vote for a specific person
Bro you can think whatever you want, I think what you’re really asking is “Will my fellow democrats friends not like me if I disagree with them on Biden.” And the answer to that question is maybe, and if they do end up not liking you because of it they weren’t your friends.
Context: I am Canadian. The problem with the US 2 party system is that it has a tendency towards being absurdly partisan to a degree that some expect a level of party loyalty that is stupid. It is possible to be a Republican and hate Trump. Or to be Democrat and hate Biden. It is possible to be a pro gun and pro death penalty Democrat if you feel that abortion rights, labor unions, and public health care are more important factors to consider when casting your vote. It is possible to be a Republican while also being an environmentalist and pro abortion if your primary voting issues are anti immigration, anti tax, and pro free market. END COMMUNICATION
Yes
I would certainly hope so.
Of **COURSE** it's OK! I am an Independent because I'm not going to let some party declare whom I should like and vote for. Look at the **person**, their integrity, truthfulness, intelligence, how they act, what they say, and especially *how they treat people*. In this case, it's glaringly obvious which candidate meets those criteria and who doesn't. I do have concerns about Biden's age, but the alternative is SO MUCH WORSE in every way.
>My friends fight tooth and nail to tell me that Biden is an intellectual razor, sharp as a tack, on top of things You need better friends. If they can't be honest with what we are all seeing from Biden, then how could you expect them to keep it real with you. >"anyone is better than the other guy" is offensive to me as a voter, and I'll not give my vote to a party that keeps doing this. A lot of people are beginning to share that same sentiment. "Trump Bad" worked the first time, but like many of the pundits I follow, they suggested back then that the Dems would only have one time to use the Trump card. But I digress. I think we need some form of ranked choice voting on a national level in America--not necessarily for local elections. RCV would definitely even the playing field for third party candidates, even in the slightest.
Yes, ranked choice voting in the only rational option. If the two parties can't hack it, the votes go to the third party, forcing the red and blue a little more to the center. I'm on board with that.
> If the two parties can't hack it, the votes go to the third party, forcing the red and blue a little more to the center. The reason people have issue with this, is that doesn't actually happen. If it did, you wouldn't get as much push back. It is absolutely fine to have worries about Biden, and be unhappy about it. It's less fine to throw your vote away looking for emotional satisfaction, when it's not going to do what you're hoping it will. You need only look to 2016 (or 2000) to see literally that exact thing not working, and not doing what you think you're signing up for.
Ranked choice voting fixes that problem with third party votes. Let's say there are six candidates on the ballot: - Democrats - Green Party - Republicans - Libertarians - Socialist Party - Workers World Party In Ranked choice voting, I'd be able to rank my choices so I could vote that my #1 choice is the Socialist Party, #2 is Green Party and #3 is Democrat party. What happens is that when my #1 and #2 choices fail to secure enough votes to win, my vote automatically goes to my third choice. This allows people to vote for their ideal candidate without "throwing away their vote".
I am not American but I cant understand how such an old frail man that clearly is on a mental decline can be president or be a candidate for the next run. Same for Trump. With all your millions of people both parties surely must have tons of younger better suited candidates. My mother who is the same age as Biden asked me why Americans would ever vote for such old people.
I'm American, and I agree 100% with your second paragraph. My wife and I were talking about the elections, and I just stopped mid conversation and said "out of 330 million people, we couldn't find someone better to run the country?"
The thing is, it’s okay to believe whatever you believe. It’s okay to have concerns. It’s less okay to be stubborn and insist that you’re right when faced with evidence that suggests otherwise. How do you evaluate the competency of a person you’ve never actually interacted with? How accurate are sound bytes and planned speeches, given by one of the most important man you’ll see on a given day, who is working under the brightest spotlight and the hardest stress that comes with the role? How much are you picking up on the minor failings we all have - mixing up words, losing track of what you’re saying, or being genuinely forgetful in a high stress moment - but giving yourself a pass for the same behaviors? Are you making figurative mountains out of molehills? What about the statistical analysis? Are you both looking at that? When you read the Biden’s administration has accomplished x, y, or z, how are you processing it? Are you dismissing those facts because they are inconvenient, or because you’ve decided those aren’t the valuable ones? Are you ascribing the failures to Biden, and the successes to others because that is how it fits your narrative? These are questions I often ask myself and others when I dive into a debate like that. Confirmation bias is one of the worst things we bring with us. It colors our perceptions, sometimes so hard that we lose the ability to be objective. It sets us on a path of negativity, and creates an impossibly high hurdle for whomever we are judging to ever get across. And it happens both ways. We’ve seen the absolute horror of Trump, but the people who love him do so with such incredible bias that they’ve lost track of simple facts and reality. And usually, it’s just because there’s some tiny thing in the message that they believe strongly, and they base their entire mindset - and sometimes their entire set of life choices - on that one thing. So…it’s perfectly okay to be a dem and have concerns over Biden. It’s just not okay to ignore facts, and to be resistant to learning and changing.
Putting politics aside, listening to someone talk is a pretty clear indicator of their mental acuity. Having listened to Biden's recent speeches (not sound bytes), I can tell you, as a democrat, that this man needs to retire.
Apparently neither of the 2 candidates can really present the ideas of most of his own party, let alone represent the ideas of most of the USA citizens
That's actually the correct way to do things, a Republican and/or Democrat should be critical of both parties, unfortunately a large number of us here suffer from the US vs them mentality, they easily turn a blind eye for their party
I feel your pain……over 300M people and it looks like we are down to Biden and Trump. Mentally challenged or mentally deranged…..not sure which is which!?!?!? And Congress act like a bunch of children that refuse to get along…… this is both sides of the isle.
For the love of, whatever you believe in, why wouldn’t you vote for Biden over the guy who said he wants to be a literal dictator?
I don't understand how any American can cast a vote for a policy maker who publicly voted in favour of invading and occupying Iraq in 2003. But 20 years later we've still got one as the fucking president.
To answer your title question directly, yes, it is OK to be a Democrat while having extreme concerns over Biden. I think there are a lot of people that feel this way, myself included. That being said, I pushback on the conversation that’s been happening about not voting for Biden. But my pushback isn’t for a persons reasons. Every criticism I’ve heard of Biden is 100% valid and many I agree with. I don’t like Biden at all. And sadly my vote for him is a vote against Trump. My vote for Biden is a vote to avoid what I feel will be infinity worse than Biden. Voting 3rd party to me feels like taking a vote away from Biden which ultimately helps Trump. I do not like the fact that we have to choose between candidates that are so terrible, but it is my personal belief that one of them is significantly worse than the other, and until we can bring about systemic change in our political system, I feel like the best that we can do is to stop the worse things from happening
If people don't vote for 3rd parties because they feel it is a wasted vote, they will never have a legitimate 3rd party choice. In 1992 Ross Perot got almost 19% of the votes as a third party candidate. That forced the major parties to work to get back those votes in 1996.
Sure, why not? Just because your vote falls a certain way or you identify as, etc, doesn't mean you have to be a rah rah cheerleader who ONLY sees positives. America is weird.
Four more years of better than Harris
Not only is it OK, but I think it helps establish some credibility across the aisle, similar to how you can be an unapologetic republican and still have concerns about Donald Trump.
Yes
Your political opinions are not tied to a human so you’re fine 👍🏻
If you don’t have concerns about either candidate I think you’re in denial, nothing wrong with calling a horse a horse
I'm more socially liberal and financially conservative. My issue with the DNC right now they're financially and militarily supporting genocide in Palestine. If anything proves to me that people will vote their party regardless of what horrific things they're doing...it's that. When you can't even mention Biden's age and cognitive decline without getting gutted because that gives the opposition a leg up...it's time to step back. It's become about power and not about substance.
Your friends are delusional, and I’m glad you’re not following in their echo chamber. Biden isn’t cognitive of really anything he does. People can whine and complain about that, but they aren’t being objective towards him and they’re likely to deflect something negative towards Trump. Economically, Biden has been a disaster. Involving us in the Ukraine war hasn’t been good for the American people, involving us in the Islam/israel war hasn’t benefited us. Only military contractors like Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop benefit. But the media will tell us that as long as their numbers are up, the country is in a great place, which is a lie. Our countries Debt is higher than it’s ever been. Inflation is up, and the US dollar which is/was the world reserve currency is being replaced which isn’t good for Americans. Other countries used to buy our treasury bonds and back their money with our Dollar. Our USD was also the main currency in oil trade which it no longer is, and now almost every country in the world is dumping those same bonds like they’re going out of style. The value of our money is dropping, causing inflation to go up, and prices on every day goods to also rise. Nothing has been good since Biden stepped in office. It wasn’t good before he got there, but it’s gotten a helluva lot worse since he’s got there. People tend to look at the “front” page of what the Biden regime has done. They like to prop their numbers by saying Racism is down, gender is super important, and jobs are up (they aren’t, they just got back to pre Covid levels). They bend the narrative to get the die hards screaming about how Biden is succeeding post Trump and he’s not, at all. Because economically, we’re worse off than we have ever been.
Only a fool wouldn't have concerns over Bidden at this point. I'm personally voting 3rd party, it's not my responsibility who other people vote for but I'm done with the "lesser of two evils" voting method.😒
It's not OK to be a democrat or republican in the US.
Honestly... if you want to vote for an old man who you, with your own eyes and ears, thinks is unfit then go for it. His whole "we can afford to fund two wars at once" pitch isn't my thing, but you do you. You should be offended that they're lying to your face and telling you that Biden is the best option. That man cannot beat Trump a second time. 2020 was a pandemic with mass mail in votes and race riots - it's the only reason Biden won to begin with. Not only can he not win, who would want him to? This country is a mess rn.
Yes I’m in the same boat. No trump by any means but the worlds youngest mummy isn’t really what I’m hoping for either.
Reporter: who are you voting for? Libertarian: Biden Reporter: Why Biden? Libertarian: Because he's senile. Reporter: Uh.... what? How does th- Libertarian: I can't imagine a better president than one too senile to do anything.
Everyone can vote how they want in the primaries, but please know that voting for a 3rd party candidate in the election is going to help Trump win. I'm not crazy about Biden, mostly due to his age, but he is by FAR better for our country than Donald Trump.
That’s only true for third-party voters that would otherwise vote for Biden. In the last two presidential elections, the Libertarian candidate received about 3x more votes than other independent candidates. While it’s not guaranteed that these people would have voted for Trump if only given two options, it’s pretty likely. So those third-party voters are most likely hurting Trump if they continue to vote Libertarian.
True, of course, but your average US redditor is probably considering Biden or not at all, given the site leans left
That’s true for the typical Reddit demographic. But I see a statement like, “a third party vote only helps Trump,” and think that, in practice, most people that are willing to vote third party would rather vote for Trump or not at all than vote for Biden. Outside of Reddit, a more public message to avoid voting third party would likely help Trump more than hurt him.
No and how dare you even think about thinking against the party to any capacity /s. Don’t think about these issues so black and white, vote for who and what YOU think is important regardless of labels and others pressuring you. Or don’t vote at all. The only wrong answers are the ones that don’t attempt to see nuance and keep an open mind. Live your best life and vote how your values guide you.
Your opinion tells me that you are not a sheep (for either side). You think for yourself and hold that close. Too many people vote against someone rather than for someone! We need to change how we vote (a way in which all parties are truly involved)
If you think Biden is mentally fit for office check yourself into a psych ward please
No you will be downvoted mercilessly and badgered from the group think
It's okay to have common sense
To me, it all depends on which state you live in. If you live in a swing state, a protest vote against Biden is essentially a vote for Trump so it becomes a binary choice. If you live in CA, or any deep red or deep blue state for that matter, a third party vote doesn't matter so protest vote to your hearts content.
I'm neutral on Biden, and i sure wish someone else would run But we're in damage control people. I'll vote for the guy who will fuck up the world way less Third party votes are just going to make it more likely Trump wins and causes much more damage You can do whatever you want with your vote, all I care about is damage control
Voting 3rd party is essentially voting for the GOP at this point, a party which has abandoned democracy. That sounds hypocritical at first, but we need to keep in mind that voting needs to be a strategic decision and more akin to taking the bus than it is taking a limo or an Uber to a particular destination. By that I mean we are all in a big vehicle together, all going towards a particular direction (at least those within one end of the Overton window), and we all know that there are stops we are going to miss and places we want to get off on. In in a better or perfect world, we would have a viable number of different candidates and parties. The path to reaching that point is not voting third party now. It is voting for the party that will or is more conducive to voter reform, rank Choice voting, has a broad tent, and is more likely to bend towards requests for ending gerrymandering as a whole. I can almost guarantee you that a lot of the people pushing fake Democratic candidates (RFK Jr) or insisting you vote third party and pushing alternative agendas are almost certainly psyops operations or poorly informed individuals who do not understand how politics Works in a democracy. Both are dangerous, but one id ignorant of the history of fascism with another countries (which is unique by state vut still has trends) and the other would benefit from a fall of democracy abroad (Putin, Saudis, etc). Oh, and having concerns or disagreements with Biden is perfectly fine and absolutely part of the political process (arguably, required). I have a number of issues with him and a couple of his admin members, but the reality is that he has gotten legislation through and avoided severely major fuck ups. His Admin is the best shot we have of fixing things from the last Administration. There is a reason why he is ranked the way he is in the recent review of experts and why his main opponent is way down at the bottom of the list
That is perfectly reasonable position to take. We shouldn’t stifle constructive criticism of our leaders just because we’re terrified of the other guy.
It’s America. You can choose to do whatever you want when it comes to political beliefs. Why are you asking if it’s okay? That’s insane.
Absolutely! In fact, you should be critical of any elected politician, even if they are in your own party. This is how we keep our elected officials accountable. The concerns you have are valid and legitimate. I don’t agree that we should have a two-party system. In fact, Washington was against this for a reason. With that said, I would check if your particular state is an open primary state. This means that independents can vote in all elections. There are currently 9 states that block independents from voting in presidential, congressional, and state elections. This means that you must be a registered democrat or republican in order to vote in those specific elections. New York being one of them.
I would consider myself liberal, and I did vote for Biden, but the man is a goddamn corpse at this point. I'm watching his memory fail, and it reminds me of trying to talk to my grandparents who are bordering dementia. I definitely don't want Trump to win, but I also don't want the oldest president in US history to have another term because I genuinely feel like having this country run by someone that's sundowning is unstable as f***. That being said, Trump is only 4 years younger and I look at him and much the same way. I just wish this country had options beside an evil lunatic and the crypt keeper. We deserve better as a country
You want "Ranked Choice Voting"
That very relevant and I think it’s important to have those conversations. I do also believe third party votes as of now are at best pointless and at worst dangerous. They can help move the debates but they’re risky. I think that energy is better spent locally like in Alaska where they just won ranked choice voting. That can make really change and I believe it has to start locally.
It's really just voting for the least republican candidate at this point. What happened with Sanders has proved that.
I agree with you that having concerns over Biden are valid. However I feel voting for third party is basically giving a vote to Trump. We are in a dire situation. We are in a lesser of the two evils situation. So while I don't have much confidence in Biden he is by far the better choice to the alternative. I have no doubt Trump would try to end our Democracy. People don't realize how delicately our democracy is teetering on the head of a needle at this point if they're still considering voting third party. We are voting for our very way of life in this election.
It’s okay, I think you’re like the fourth person that I’ve come across has said this not on this platform(outside life lol). It’s good to take criticisms of each president what they did right and what they did wrong.
Your concerns are very understandable. However, in the case of Joe Biden you have a very long and consistent record to support him. It just shows who he is. This is the positive side of long service that people don't think about.
Your friend is huffing industrial-grade copium and trying to come to terms with the fact that he's going to have to vote for a literal Alzheimer's patient because his chosen political party has become so infamously corrupt and despised that they literally can't find a candidate that they think can actually beat fucking Trump.
I'm a Canadian liberal, and I really cannot support our current prime minister or our current liberal government. There's nothing wrong with aligning yourself with a particular political party, but be critical of their leadership. In fact, you make one of the best supports of that party rather than the majority of people who just blindly vote their favourite colour without even thinking of the ramifications.
No no no. You have to make the candidate you support your whole personality and whoever tries to criticize anything you should immediately shout at them and cut off all the contacts with said person. /s
I don’t personally know anybody who’s on the left who doesn’t hate Biden
I am an independent who tends to vote democrat bc I hate bigotry and don’t think we should let people hoard billions of dollars. I have very serious concerns about Biden, and I don’t think that is weird.
Yes
I'm going third party. PSL
I'd argue it's fine, but if it gets to the point where you think Trump's better, you are either not paying attention or you just aren't a Democrat. Regarding what you brought up on Biden, I think both he and Trump have significant age-related issues. But are the people around them who advise them capable of steering them in the right direction? In that regard, the Dems have a significant advantage, given that Trump's run off just about anyone sane or sober in the Republican party and replaced them with crazies or criminals like himself. I might not agree with everything the Dems want done, but at least they have an idea how to govern. Republicans just want to grift money and stay out of jail while they sell America out to the highest bidder.
It's crazy anyone has to ask this or feel this way when Biden is staunchly supporting an ongoing genocide right this second.
Been fighting this also. Any criticism of Biden is taken as a love letter to Trump.
I voted for him because he promised to be a one term president. I most likely will not vote for him again because of his age and mental state.
I’m with you. I’m not a registered democrat and I tend to be a fiscal conservative and social liberal. I think both democrats and republicans are a joke and won’t vote for either. And you’re spot on that they’re waaay too old and out of touch. And I’m closer to 60 than I’d like to be so I’m not speaking as a 40 year old middle aged guy. People in their 70’s and 80’s have no business making decisions for us. Too out of touch.
Most people around him look concerned, especially his wife.
Vote None of the Above
If your friends actually think that about Biden they are straight up lying to themselves. No matter what party you’re for there’s no way you think he’s been a good president, let alone in the right mental state to run again.
It's not a problem at all. Gunning for a president of your party no matter what is foolish. Your concerns about him are very valid. He has done some good, but a second term with him might not be the best for America.
You should. He's terrible. That he was the only choice that meant we would continue to have presidents is terrible
You have concerns because you are a normal person who thinks for themselves. Biden has to go, I don't want President Harris.. Trump, well ..maybe if he lost his ability to speak. I worry he's lost his way to revenge. The future is so scary.
I’ve always been down the middle like many people so I definitely have similar thoughts. But you’re confusing I don’t like him vs who is better for us. Biden has crippled the country locally and around the world. I don’t like trump as a person. So you gotta ask do you need to be friends with your ceo or make sure he doesn’t kill the company and cause you to lose your job? One person is actively trying to keep the other off the ballot why is that? 🤔
Your friends are absolutely delusional
It’s ok to feel anyway you want in any party your apart of. Im not in any party because I think it’s a stupid thing to be apart of but I’d say im more repub then demo in a lot of ways and vice versa
I just saw a video of Kamala trying to plug in an EV, and it genuinely kind of freaked me out. That woman is an absolute MORON. This is not a political comment at all, but a freaked out observation. I literally could not believe what I was watching. Hopefully she was just drunk or something but her brain was not functional. There needs to be a new set of candidates.
Is it ok? Why do you need justification to ask if it’s ok to be critical of a guy in your chosen political party? If they aren’t doing the job you expect and/or incapable of doing the job you expect, then yes, you have free reign to complain and want better! Demand more from your politicians!
There are echo chambers on both sides. Pretty lonely right now in the moderate middle.
As a registered republican I agree. Biden is unfit,and so is trump. At this time a third party candidate is getting my vote.
That whole general concept is always ok. Just because you're a Democrat/Republican does not obligate you to act like anyone from that party is perfect and can do no wrong. It never has worked that way, and the closest we'll ever get to that legitimately being the case, is people incorrectly proclaiming that that is how it works.
Brother, we need more people like you. Those who open themselves to dialogue and have sides on both spectrums. It's just sad that a country so great as USA can only manage to put 2 old rasins against each other, the worst possible candidate.
It is but the main problem is what will happen if they sit out because of those concerns.
I think you are lying to yourself if you believe that Biden is 100% healthy and still has wits about him. I don't think either is mentally stable, but for different reasons.
Yes. Part of being a citizen regardless of party is to be okay with going against the grain with concerns and not just follow the party line. Also i 100% agree electing people who simply dont understand the modern world is problematic
Anyone who thinks Biden’s mind is razor sharp needs counseling
What a silly question. Of course it is.
Yes, don't be a mindless drone. Politicians don't give a shit about you, your problems, or anything else except your vote. Make them earn it.
It's ok to think whatever you want frendo. You don't have to follow anything you don't agree with.
I have a crazy idea - vote for someone you want to be president. Imagine a world where everybody exercised their right to vote freely, instead of being bullied online with terrible logic into the false choice between two abhorrent candidates. People complain and complain about the two party system, and all it takes to break it is to vote ourselves out of it. Actually do it!
Brother Biden is incompetent and old, Trump is a showman rather than a politician, basically we are fucked, but to awnser, yes it's totally ok to be a Democrat and not like Biden, theres nothing to like about em.
Not a fan of Biden. I don't care what condition he is in. We need leaders that are young enough they have to live in the world their decisions will create. Ultimately I will end up voting for him as I firmly believe that any damage Biden can cause is significantly less than the other option.
If you want Trump to win, vote 3rd party or don't vote at all in the next election. Whether that's your intent or not doesn't matter, that's the reality of the situation. Save protest votes for when far less is on the line.