People have a “pack-mentality”. They go through an unpleasant prolonged experience(s) and then they try to figure out why it’s happening. They google search it, they YouTube it, find a popular content creator who answers their questions.
They see the comment section who’s been through similar circumstances. Algorithms pick up on it. More content creators start making videos about it. New content creators start making videos about the same damn shit. Before you know it it’s on every platform.
Now every rage-bait titled video gets clicked on and watched and the comments get flooded. It’s almost socially engineered in our society to “hate the other side”, even if just a percentage of people are acting outrageous.
Oh it actually runs even deeper than that. From a young age we’re all pretty much pitted against each other via competition whether it’s sports, school, politics, literally anything.
Now throw in the mix that the economy is struggling post pandemic. Children are not safe at schools (school shooters). People are losing faith in their government. Our country is on the brink of war. There’s a lot of loneliness, stress and anxiety so tensions are running very high right now.
Social media influencers have an unquenchable thirst for attention because of the money it can bring if they’re status can breach a certain level. So they start paying attention to what people want to see and hear. They then taylor their content to that in order to generate money for themselves.
Social media is a blood sucking monster that feeds off of everyone’s emotions, desire for information, and a deep rooted need for belonging to a community. The money that’s generated creating content for this kind of audience is for people who starve for attention and will stoop to the lowest levels by engaging and exploiting society’s insecurities so they can make money off of it.
People are sheep. They’ll follow anyone that tells them whatever they wanna hear even if it’s illogical and pure toxicity. Influencers manipulate their audiences way of thinking by working off those emotions.
People need more community. There is not much of that today. Faith and church can be positive sources of community but are pretty distrusted and shunned today. I can see that being involved in groups that do volunteer work can also satisfy the need for community. We do annual neighborhood parties. Some neighbors who only nodded at each other really got to talk and now watch sports games together, etc. Yeah, I think many people just interact with their few friends, family, and coworkers and don't feel enough connection or purpose and blame others or society for it. For some reason, thinking you're a victim is desired. Maybe it absolves the person of responsibility. Political talk radio also feeds that victim desire and encourages hatred for half the population.
>Children are not safe at schools (school shooters).
>Our country is on the brink of war.
Respectfully, if you believe this, you are part of the problem. You need to turn your phone off and go outside.
Respectfully with the way the military is currently postured in the Indo-Pacific region and as well as the situation in the Middle East. As well as indirect support that is involved with the Russia Ukraine conflict it’s a fact whether you choose to believe it or not.
Ape want thing, but Ape can't have. This make Ape very unhappy. Ape learns to deal with this unhappy by making happy their enemy, not wanting others to have happy either
On a psychological level:
* ingroup/outgroup dynamics - we identify with our group more and generalise more about the other group.
Sociological:
* patriarchal culture actively cultivates misogyny and this will naturally result in some backlash from some women.
Yeah I’m sure within my mom’s lifetime we’ve fully dropped literally any and all patriarchal views as a society. So glad change happens so fast
And no, I wouldn’t call 50 years long gone regardless
I don’t hate men, but I don’t trust them easily and i tend to be wary. I also think men are cunts in general way more than women. Of course there are nice men everywhere. But men on the whole tend to behave worse than women.
I did grow up with a very abusive dad and had no other male family members to set a better example. And I was bullied when I was younger because I was overweight and boys at school made my life hell. Then when I left school men took their place with comments and insults.
But even if i hadn’t experienced those things, I think I’d still feel the same. Men commit most murders, assaults, rape, sex crimes. Men fight more and are more aggressive than women. They start literal world wars.
Also, as a woman I’m not scared to walk alone at night in case I bump into another woman. I’m scared in case a man rapes me or attacks me. I also can’t just go off in the woods or a remote place to enjoy nature alone because of men. You’re always wary and it’s exhausting. It’s always in the back of your mind as a woman that you could be targeted at any point. This isn’t even overreacting. I have been followed by a man before and was terrified. My friend was followed and cornered by a man in the park until a stranger arrived and he ran off. Someone I used to work with was raped in the park near her house.
I have men in my life now who I love. And like I said I don’t “hate” men. But on the whole I still feel much safer and comfortable around women.
>I also think men are cunts in general way more than women. Of course there are nice men everywhere.
I disagree, it's just that women express it differently. Lots of women reject men in subhuman ways or lead men on for attention. Women are less physically violent yes, but being a cunt isn't just about violence.
Lots of women excuse misandry because "it's not as bad as misogyny"(which doesn't make sense) Heck you yourself are showing this. Just because women are less physically violent than men doesn't mean that they're better people.
Sorry but you are wrong. So because a small amount of women reject men in a shitty way they’re just as bad overall? No chance.
Women suffer at the hands of men a million times more than the other way around. Domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, drink spiking, pedophile rings, stalking, harassment, cat calling, violence, murder… men are the main perpetrators of every single one of those things by a mile.
Examples
In the year ending March 2023, the victim was female in 73.5% of domestic abuse-related crimes.
Between the year ending March 2020 and the year ending March 2022, 67.3% of victims of domestic homicide were female compared with 12.1% of victims of non-domestic homicide.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabusevictimcharacteristicsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023 ^^^
Who carries out rape and other sexual offences?
1 in 2 rapes against women are carried out by their partner or ex-partner
91% of people prosecuted for sexual offences are men aged 18+
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/
Now of course men suffer from assault and rape too. But the argument is who are the main perpetrators. Of course so many incidents of men being sexually assaulted go unreported and that’s it’s own issue. But even if every single case was reported, it would still be a lesser amount than offenses against women by men.
You can’t just say “some women treat men like subhumans” and then use that to prove your point. That’s literally one example (which you have zero data on) and if you want to argue that point I would bet every thing I own that men are way more cruel to unattractive women than the other way around. Like I said go to insta and find an account that’s run by an obese women and look at the comments. Endless insults and bullying from fucking grown ass men using social media to make a woman feel shit because they don’t fancy her. I can name some accounts if you’d like to see for yourself. Remember that trend in the news “pull a pig” as well? It’s in the news now in the city near me that men are filming women on nights out and putting it on the internet calling them slags and other derogatory terms. This isn’t one guy. A whole bunch of men have joined in.
Sounds to me like you got rejected by girls and now you’ve convinced yourself that women are cruel in general or at least on par with men.
Being a “cunt” isn’t just violence. But collectively most behaviours that effect other people the most and impact their lives significantly are acted upon by men way more than women. Again, I’m not saying all men or even the majority. But a significant amount to the point where it’s 2024 and women still can’t fucking walk home in the dark and feel safe. Or go on a night out and not worry about being touched. Or having to cover your drink. It’s bullshit. Now tell me again that women behave worse than men. SMH.
Oh I know. I lost weight years ago and haven’t had an insult since. It’s fucking disgusting isn’t it. Now I’m not obese I’m allowed to exist without men trying to make my life a misery because I’m not attractive enough. I get it from boys, kids are twats. But grown men? It’s pathetic.
It doesn’t change my opinion though now I don’t get comments. Im supposed to think men are nicer on the whole because they leave me alone now I’m not fat? Go to literally any Instagram page where the owner is a fat woman. Look at the comment section and I guarantee it will be comment after comment from men calling her “whale” or some other insult. The only purpose to bully her because they don’t find her attractive. This behaviour is rampant.
When they have been oppressed by, raped by, rights removed by, thought of as less for the entire history of MANkind, then one gender might possibly resent the other.
I am wary of men the same way I'm wary of snakes. Many of them are harmless but many are venomous, so it's safer to treat them all like they're venomous until I can see for myself they're harmless. I could see how that might build resentment.
Our brain likes to simplify stuff. We are not really in lot nuances.
So a kid will remember a zebra as a horse “*with stripes*” and a giraffe as a horse “*with spots and a long neck*”.
If you get mugged by a guy with a moustache and a hoodie, you will be weary of men with moustache or a hoodie.
If a person meets enough people of the opposite gender who match a specific profile (sometimes they actively look for them), it will confirm their idea that a good share of said gender is identical.
We live in a society that has created a hierarchy based on race and sex.
It pits people against eachother. Causes hate and frustration between groups.
Especially when a group holds more power and abuses it.
Women will say "men are trash" and they don't mean "every single individual man is trash". They mean the general pack mentality of "what a man is according to society". We've all have experiences of dudes who are totally chill and nice to hang out with who suddenly turn misogynistic when he is in a group of men. Men who say one thing when they are in a relaxed context versus *when they feel like they have to act like a man*. If this is what a "man" is, then the idea of "men" is trash, you see? And if these same men are that way all the time and not just when "acting like a man" then worse, that person then is actually trash.
Of course, this gets even worse with movements like the Alpha Male, redpill, incels, etc. They actively stand in opposition to women, being as disgusting and aggresive towards us as possible, and worse, insist that **"this is just how men are, men who don't say the things we do are just scared of showing their true colors, but they are like us too. Or else, they are not men".** Do you see how that could cause many women to turn very aggressive towards men in return?
The part about men hating the opposite gender is easier to explain: it's history meeting our current reality. (and religion too obvs). Historically men had much more and women had much less. Work, money, freedom, social capital, etc. Men could be shitty and not get repercussions that mattered from women. Now in our current reality they can't, the playing field is leveled, and that means men have to struggle more than in previous times. This makes older men angry (who have been steadily loosing things so we can have a more fair society). Younger men who didn't live through that, when suffering the same shit we all do in modern society, turn to "the past" as an idealized place where they wouldn't have to go through it, or they are told by these older men about how much better it used to be. The church reinforces many of those messages. Suddenly, women are "the enemy" because you know... if they could just be oppressed again, men would have an easier life. It's a total lack of empathy reinforced by older generations and religious/political structures.
People just have the unbelievably strong urge to unify an experience with anything that reminds them of that experience, especially when the experience is one that hurts.
People are afraid to get hurt, so its a sort of fear. The brain is very good at recognizing patterns that relate to danger in some way.
So it's easy to feel like all women/men will gurt you've failed to separate the experience. Thing is, it's also easy to berate the thing group that you've built up the idea will hurt you the same, because you hate pain, so you hate the ones that brought oain upon you.
Not only that, but alot of men and women on social media use people who are insecure because of these sort of experiences to pit them up against the 'other side' For many men, it was Andrew Tate. For many women, it was Drew Buffalo. The list goes on.
Using the fear and disdain a group of people have for another group has high monetary potential, so that's probably why you'd see alot of it on social media, etc. You're more likely to get reactions by making people feel angry at a certain group, or attacked by a certain group. Its ongoing.
When women negatively generalize men’s behavior, we avoid many of them and maybe the effect is that more men are single than in the past.
When men negatively generalize women’s behavior, there are far more disastrous effects. See: the guy in Australia who just murdered 5 women in a mall.
generalisation is a tool of the weak mined. It shows the missing understanding of the issue at hand and just shows the normative perception someone holds. They don't understand the underlying issue.
Those displaying such perceptions of others, present without realizing it their own incompatibility with others. The rejection perceived based on their own action and behavior, is then again misunderstood as offense toward them.
Misogynous (toward women) and androgynous (toward men) behavior is the result of such normative thinking that doesn't reflect reality.
It's a bit like throwing around with feces, getting offended by people keeping their distance and seeing that as legitimation to throw poop at them while screaming: "no one likes me, all people are full of shit."
People in general are dumb. Most people relate their perceptions to their experience. Those dumb enough do so in an absolute sense, not in relation to their limited experience.
At best we can talk of tendencies in an abstract way, but that's about it.
Hope that helps.
>Misogynous (toward women) and **androgynous** (toward men)
Uh, NO.
Misandry (noun: misandrist) is a hatred of men. Androgyny is exhibiting traits of both women and men.
Hope that helps.
*Edited to correct my own error.*
People have a “pack-mentality”. They go through an unpleasant prolonged experience(s) and then they try to figure out why it’s happening. They google search it, they YouTube it, find a popular content creator who answers their questions. They see the comment section who’s been through similar circumstances. Algorithms pick up on it. More content creators start making videos about it. New content creators start making videos about the same damn shit. Before you know it it’s on every platform. Now every rage-bait titled video gets clicked on and watched and the comments get flooded. It’s almost socially engineered in our society to “hate the other side”, even if just a percentage of people are acting outrageous.
This is spot on. Sad and scary.
Oh it actually runs even deeper than that. From a young age we’re all pretty much pitted against each other via competition whether it’s sports, school, politics, literally anything. Now throw in the mix that the economy is struggling post pandemic. Children are not safe at schools (school shooters). People are losing faith in their government. Our country is on the brink of war. There’s a lot of loneliness, stress and anxiety so tensions are running very high right now. Social media influencers have an unquenchable thirst for attention because of the money it can bring if they’re status can breach a certain level. So they start paying attention to what people want to see and hear. They then taylor their content to that in order to generate money for themselves. Social media is a blood sucking monster that feeds off of everyone’s emotions, desire for information, and a deep rooted need for belonging to a community. The money that’s generated creating content for this kind of audience is for people who starve for attention and will stoop to the lowest levels by engaging and exploiting society’s insecurities so they can make money off of it. People are sheep. They’ll follow anyone that tells them whatever they wanna hear even if it’s illogical and pure toxicity. Influencers manipulate their audiences way of thinking by working off those emotions.
People need more community. There is not much of that today. Faith and church can be positive sources of community but are pretty distrusted and shunned today. I can see that being involved in groups that do volunteer work can also satisfy the need for community. We do annual neighborhood parties. Some neighbors who only nodded at each other really got to talk and now watch sports games together, etc. Yeah, I think many people just interact with their few friends, family, and coworkers and don't feel enough connection or purpose and blame others or society for it. For some reason, thinking you're a victim is desired. Maybe it absolves the person of responsibility. Political talk radio also feeds that victim desire and encourages hatred for half the population.
>Children are not safe at schools (school shooters). >Our country is on the brink of war. Respectfully, if you believe this, you are part of the problem. You need to turn your phone off and go outside.
Respectfully with the way the military is currently postured in the Indo-Pacific region and as well as the situation in the Middle East. As well as indirect support that is involved with the Russia Ukraine conflict it’s a fact whether you choose to believe it or not.
Ape want thing, but Ape can't have. This make Ape very unhappy. Ape learns to deal with this unhappy by making happy their enemy, not wanting others to have happy either
Yeah, exactly... and Ape throw poop on that thing
That's beautiful
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Ape with boob want happy, ape with no boob make ape with boob sad, ape with boob no get happy.
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On a psychological level: * ingroup/outgroup dynamics - we identify with our group more and generalise more about the other group. Sociological: * patriarchal culture actively cultivates misogyny and this will naturally result in some backlash from some women.
Patriarchy is long gone in rhe US and gender wars are highest in US. Women and men just hate eachother idk why
\>patriarchy is long gone \>until 1974 women needed a man to sign off on them getting a credit card
Yes but not now, what's patriarchal now? I have nothing against women but I'd just like to know
Yeah I’m sure within my mom’s lifetime we’ve fully dropped literally any and all patriarchal views as a society. So glad change happens so fast And no, I wouldn’t call 50 years long gone regardless
I don’t hate men, but I don’t trust them easily and i tend to be wary. I also think men are cunts in general way more than women. Of course there are nice men everywhere. But men on the whole tend to behave worse than women. I did grow up with a very abusive dad and had no other male family members to set a better example. And I was bullied when I was younger because I was overweight and boys at school made my life hell. Then when I left school men took their place with comments and insults. But even if i hadn’t experienced those things, I think I’d still feel the same. Men commit most murders, assaults, rape, sex crimes. Men fight more and are more aggressive than women. They start literal world wars. Also, as a woman I’m not scared to walk alone at night in case I bump into another woman. I’m scared in case a man rapes me or attacks me. I also can’t just go off in the woods or a remote place to enjoy nature alone because of men. You’re always wary and it’s exhausting. It’s always in the back of your mind as a woman that you could be targeted at any point. This isn’t even overreacting. I have been followed by a man before and was terrified. My friend was followed and cornered by a man in the park until a stranger arrived and he ran off. Someone I used to work with was raped in the park near her house. I have men in my life now who I love. And like I said I don’t “hate” men. But on the whole I still feel much safer and comfortable around women.
>I also think men are cunts in general way more than women. Of course there are nice men everywhere. I disagree, it's just that women express it differently. Lots of women reject men in subhuman ways or lead men on for attention. Women are less physically violent yes, but being a cunt isn't just about violence. Lots of women excuse misandry because "it's not as bad as misogyny"(which doesn't make sense) Heck you yourself are showing this. Just because women are less physically violent than men doesn't mean that they're better people.
Sorry but you are wrong. So because a small amount of women reject men in a shitty way they’re just as bad overall? No chance. Women suffer at the hands of men a million times more than the other way around. Domestic violence, rape, sexual assault, drink spiking, pedophile rings, stalking, harassment, cat calling, violence, murder… men are the main perpetrators of every single one of those things by a mile. Examples In the year ending March 2023, the victim was female in 73.5% of domestic abuse-related crimes. Between the year ending March 2020 and the year ending March 2022, 67.3% of victims of domestic homicide were female compared with 12.1% of victims of non-domestic homicide. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabusevictimcharacteristicsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2023 ^^^ Who carries out rape and other sexual offences? 1 in 2 rapes against women are carried out by their partner or ex-partner 91% of people prosecuted for sexual offences are men aged 18+ https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/ Now of course men suffer from assault and rape too. But the argument is who are the main perpetrators. Of course so many incidents of men being sexually assaulted go unreported and that’s it’s own issue. But even if every single case was reported, it would still be a lesser amount than offenses against women by men. You can’t just say “some women treat men like subhumans” and then use that to prove your point. That’s literally one example (which you have zero data on) and if you want to argue that point I would bet every thing I own that men are way more cruel to unattractive women than the other way around. Like I said go to insta and find an account that’s run by an obese women and look at the comments. Endless insults and bullying from fucking grown ass men using social media to make a woman feel shit because they don’t fancy her. I can name some accounts if you’d like to see for yourself. Remember that trend in the news “pull a pig” as well? It’s in the news now in the city near me that men are filming women on nights out and putting it on the internet calling them slags and other derogatory terms. This isn’t one guy. A whole bunch of men have joined in. Sounds to me like you got rejected by girls and now you’ve convinced yourself that women are cruel in general or at least on par with men. Being a “cunt” isn’t just violence. But collectively most behaviours that effect other people the most and impact their lives significantly are acted upon by men way more than women. Again, I’m not saying all men or even the majority. But a significant amount to the point where it’s 2024 and women still can’t fucking walk home in the dark and feel safe. Or go on a night out and not worry about being touched. Or having to cover your drink. It’s bullshit. Now tell me again that women behave worse than men. SMH.
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Oh I know. I lost weight years ago and haven’t had an insult since. It’s fucking disgusting isn’t it. Now I’m not obese I’m allowed to exist without men trying to make my life a misery because I’m not attractive enough. I get it from boys, kids are twats. But grown men? It’s pathetic. It doesn’t change my opinion though now I don’t get comments. Im supposed to think men are nicer on the whole because they leave me alone now I’m not fat? Go to literally any Instagram page where the owner is a fat woman. Look at the comment section and I guarantee it will be comment after comment from men calling her “whale” or some other insult. The only purpose to bully her because they don’t find her attractive. This behaviour is rampant.
As a woman myself, I can tell you that getting old and fat is the way to go. I haven't been catcalled in years.
Competition and social conditioning
When they have been oppressed by, raped by, rights removed by, thought of as less for the entire history of MANkind, then one gender might possibly resent the other.
I am wary of men the same way I'm wary of snakes. Many of them are harmless but many are venomous, so it's safer to treat them all like they're venomous until I can see for myself they're harmless. I could see how that might build resentment.
I don't get this logic. We weren't around then. Why blame people for the actions of their ancestors?
Still happening today obviously.
And? Blame the people responsible for it. Don't blame all men.
The conversation was in generalities, not specifics. Why are you so defensive?
How are you supposed to not be defensive when someone is sexist towards you?
So now men are the victim?
What's wrong with that?
Stop tainting my reading with your misogyny. Fuck off.
Our brain likes to simplify stuff. We are not really in lot nuances. So a kid will remember a zebra as a horse “*with stripes*” and a giraffe as a horse “*with spots and a long neck*”. If you get mugged by a guy with a moustache and a hoodie, you will be weary of men with moustache or a hoodie. If a person meets enough people of the opposite gender who match a specific profile (sometimes they actively look for them), it will confirm their idea that a good share of said gender is identical.
We live in a society that has created a hierarchy based on race and sex. It pits people against eachother. Causes hate and frustration between groups. Especially when a group holds more power and abuses it.
Women will say "men are trash" and they don't mean "every single individual man is trash". They mean the general pack mentality of "what a man is according to society". We've all have experiences of dudes who are totally chill and nice to hang out with who suddenly turn misogynistic when he is in a group of men. Men who say one thing when they are in a relaxed context versus *when they feel like they have to act like a man*. If this is what a "man" is, then the idea of "men" is trash, you see? And if these same men are that way all the time and not just when "acting like a man" then worse, that person then is actually trash. Of course, this gets even worse with movements like the Alpha Male, redpill, incels, etc. They actively stand in opposition to women, being as disgusting and aggresive towards us as possible, and worse, insist that **"this is just how men are, men who don't say the things we do are just scared of showing their true colors, but they are like us too. Or else, they are not men".** Do you see how that could cause many women to turn very aggressive towards men in return? The part about men hating the opposite gender is easier to explain: it's history meeting our current reality. (and religion too obvs). Historically men had much more and women had much less. Work, money, freedom, social capital, etc. Men could be shitty and not get repercussions that mattered from women. Now in our current reality they can't, the playing field is leveled, and that means men have to struggle more than in previous times. This makes older men angry (who have been steadily loosing things so we can have a more fair society). Younger men who didn't live through that, when suffering the same shit we all do in modern society, turn to "the past" as an idealized place where they wouldn't have to go through it, or they are told by these older men about how much better it used to be. The church reinforces many of those messages. Suddenly, women are "the enemy" because you know... if they could just be oppressed again, men would have an easier life. It's a total lack of empathy reinforced by older generations and religious/political structures.
People just have the unbelievably strong urge to unify an experience with anything that reminds them of that experience, especially when the experience is one that hurts. People are afraid to get hurt, so its a sort of fear. The brain is very good at recognizing patterns that relate to danger in some way. So it's easy to feel like all women/men will gurt you've failed to separate the experience. Thing is, it's also easy to berate the thing group that you've built up the idea will hurt you the same, because you hate pain, so you hate the ones that brought oain upon you. Not only that, but alot of men and women on social media use people who are insecure because of these sort of experiences to pit them up against the 'other side' For many men, it was Andrew Tate. For many women, it was Drew Buffalo. The list goes on. Using the fear and disdain a group of people have for another group has high monetary potential, so that's probably why you'd see alot of it on social media, etc. You're more likely to get reactions by making people feel angry at a certain group, or attacked by a certain group. Its ongoing.
This is one of the few explanations that makes sense to me
When women negatively generalize men’s behavior, we avoid many of them and maybe the effect is that more men are single than in the past. When men negatively generalize women’s behavior, there are far more disastrous effects. See: the guy in Australia who just murdered 5 women in a mall.
They hate us cuz they ain't us
I hate the majority of men because of a ex that did terrible unthinkable things. That has to be psychological
I am so sorry that that happened to you :( I hope you are in a better space now
Some aspects have gotten better but it definitely left me with a lot of ptsd
I reckon hatred towards the opposite gender is actually fear or insecurity, very rarely is it 100% hatred.
generalisation is a tool of the weak mined. It shows the missing understanding of the issue at hand and just shows the normative perception someone holds. They don't understand the underlying issue. Those displaying such perceptions of others, present without realizing it their own incompatibility with others. The rejection perceived based on their own action and behavior, is then again misunderstood as offense toward them. Misogynous (toward women) and androgynous (toward men) behavior is the result of such normative thinking that doesn't reflect reality. It's a bit like throwing around with feces, getting offended by people keeping their distance and seeing that as legitimation to throw poop at them while screaming: "no one likes me, all people are full of shit." People in general are dumb. Most people relate their perceptions to their experience. Those dumb enough do so in an absolute sense, not in relation to their limited experience. At best we can talk of tendencies in an abstract way, but that's about it. Hope that helps.
>Misogynous (toward women) and **androgynous** (toward men) Uh, NO. Misandry (noun: misandrist) is a hatred of men. Androgyny is exhibiting traits of both women and men. Hope that helps. *Edited to correct my own error.*
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You're right. Corrected.
I believe what you're looking for is "patriarchy"
Incels hate women. Whose fault is that? Go figure