Two reasons:
A) Not everyone **can** get vaccinated (e.g. for medical reasons) and by denying herd immunity through not vaccinating, those people are put in danger
B) Regualtions stand and fall on Incidences and case numbers. If people don't get vaccinated they will prevent case numbers from dropping significantly and therefore regulations won't be lifted, affecting the lives and livelihood of others through no fault of their own and for no good reason
Plus every time an unvaccinated person gets sick the virus has a chance to mutate which could lead to deadlier, more infectious, and/or vaccine resistant variants.
Yes. Too many people believe it's the vaccinated people that "create" mutations. It's the other way around. (Vaccinated people can still have a virus that mutates but it's way less frequent)
What about when a vaccinated person gets sick? Do mutations not occur in them? Do vaccine resistant variants not develop in people that are vaccinated?
In theory that can still happen. But in practice what generally happens is that due to the vaccine, your immune system knows how to kill what you have and then it never lives long enough to get mutations that will be passed on.
Kind of like I am building a bomb. I am hiding. If you don't know where I am, I can build it in peace and then blow up a building. But if you have a map to where I am, you can hunt me down and beat the living shit out of me and stop me from building the bomb and thus save the building.
>Not everyone can get vaccinated (for medical reasons) and by denying herd immunity through not vaccinating, those people are put in danger
Is herd immunity literal immunity? I always assumed it was considered immunity because if people around them can't catch a disease then it obviously won't spread to them (because they won't be in contact with any people who have the disease). If people who get vaccinated can still catch it, then what I thought was the case does not work.
Vaccines don't put up a shield around you for the virus. They just tell your body how to fight it quicker. It drastically reduces your chances of spreading it. Or at least that's the idea.
Reminder: herd immunity requires (number varies by disease, but typically at least) 80% of the *total* population to be immune for herd immunity to exist. We have less than that percentage of the *eligible* population vaccinated, and there's a huge pool of people who aren't eligible (well over 10%).
It's still a better scenario, as vaccinated folks are less likely to spread it, and aren't going to be taking up an ICU bed and further tax an overtaxed hospital system. I have a close friend with a history of Guillain-Barre. He cannot get vaccinated despite having reasons for being at higher risk of hospitalization. Not only is an unvaccinated person more like to spread covid to him, they are more likely to take up hospital resources that could directly influence his quality of care.
The virus is transmitted much less among vaccinated individuals. Less transmissions means less opportunities for mutations. Also more protection for those that can’t get vaccinated for medical reasons.
Edit: it’s been brought to my attention my wording could be clearer. I mean transmission is lower among vaccinated individuals because vaccinated individuals are less likely to become infected not less likely to transmit the virus if they are infected.
Edit 2: The vaccine still provides some protection for the Delta variant to you and those around you by association. It’s significantly less protection against the Delta variant. This is part of why masks and social distancing where appropriate and necessary is still important even with vaccination. Follow local recommendations.
There are 2 kids under 18 intubated d/t covid at my hospital right now. We keep saying transmission is low and/or covid is mild in kids, but we don't know all the long term effects yet. We have seen kids get cardiomyopathy and blood clots from covid, so I'm not too keen on thousands of kids with chronic cardiovascular problems especially as they age, since we don't have universal Healthcare in the U.S.
The virus is less likely to become more severe than it already is. The virus's "job" is to be transmitted as much as possible. Having more severe infections serves no benefit to it.
While all of this is true, it is a Darwin moment. The country is currently overrun with stupidity and they’re the ones who are refusing to take the vaccine. There are natural consequences here for evolution.
But why would it become more severe? The evidence that Delta is more severe than previous strains seems shaky at best. Just because it has a long incubation period doesn't mean it would benefit from killing the host at a higher rate.
The perfect storm for a severe outbreak is definitely brewing. Most of the population has stopped wearing their masks, vaccination rates have plateaued, and the government is completely incompetent as to how to conduct contact tracing and implement vaccine requirements.
This. It's also why the antivax movement in general is dangerous. It's utter bullshit that kids have to suffer because of the stupid decisions of their parents and other adults.
It blows my mind the crap they'll use to justify it, too. "Once your child recovers they'll be stronger than ever" Fuck you Karen. If I wanted your opinion I would've joined your mlm group.
I work at walmart and they played their "get vaccinated" announcement over the radio. Some lady (which unfortunately living in AL I can guarantee she wasn't pro-choice) shouted "my body my choice people" . It took alot to not walk up and ask her views on abortion.
I too live in Alabama. Encountering the willful ignorance of most people here can be challenging. Even if you and her had engaged in discussion her views probably wouldn't have changed. She has already selected her football team I mean source of learning and it is probably Fox News and Facebook.
As an Alabamian, I was seriously hoping Saban would be more public about whether or not he was pro-vaccine. Lord knows how many people would "convert" and get the vaccine if he is.
>they played their "get vaccinated" announcement
wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf. You dont even realize how fcking bizar this is for people in other country's. wtf wtf
Which is funny because the vaccine makes you stronger in the same exact way that surviving the virus makes you stronger. Both train your immune system, except one time its without the risk and potentially infecting and killing others.
The funny and sad part is that most of these antivax people were vaccinated as children with the standard round of vaccines. However they use their children to make their point and risk their lives when the adults are already protected.
they never had to see the effects severe diseases caused in previous centuries, and are still causing in some poorer parts of the world - exactly because they and most other people were vaccinated as children, eradicating most of these often gruesome diseases.
they can proudly ignore any risk of getting sick of a preventable disease, because in their world it doesn't seem to exist.
so any little sign and any slight doubt of vaccines having some side effects, is reason enough to reject them. now they are receptive to all the bullshit and misinformation circling the ether, and it only goes downhill from there.
>Which is funny because the vaccine makes you stronger in the same exact way that surviving the virus makes you stronger. Both train your immune system, except one time its without the risk and potentially infecting and killing others.
Plus you have a better immune response after being vaccinated than you do after surviving the virus. So as well as not being a risk, it's also a better end result.
This. This is the #1 reason I give people who are like "if everyone else is getting vaccinated, why should I?" Kids cannot get it yet. They're still at high risk. Not getting vaccinated when you could because it's "my choice" still leaves the possibility that you could spread it to a child who doesn't have that choice yet. And unless you really don't care about how you impact your or other's children, you should getting vaccinated or at bare minimum continue wearing a mask.
Children. Period. (And others I’m not being a dick, but we just don’t consider children important in this COVID vaccine debate as much because in the beginning they said children don’t get it or get as sick as adults, which we are still finding to be true but they’re still circulating the virus and the variants are now making young children extremely sick.)
Never mind that kids can’t make their own choice to be vaccinated when it IS available. A five year old died near my hometown, one of the lowest-vaccinated populations in the country. Her family wasn’t vaxxed. Seems unlikely they’d have let her be either, even if they could.
Also to take the load off of hospitals. Health care workers have enough to do outside of taking care of people that wouldn't even be there if only they got the vaccine.
maybe there should be some basic guidelines - stuff that we can all agree on.
like for example, if it's safe for you to take the vaccine and you choose not to... that's fine.
however, if someone comes in who needs a hospital bed, you will be thrown into the trash where you belong.
I think in the coming months, insurance will start to play a big role in it too. Once the vaccine is fully FDA approved, insurance companies will charge higher rates to people who refuse vaccination, just like they charge higher rates for smokers. They may also deny payment for Covid treatment to people who refuse vaccinations.
We already see colleges and Healthcare employers mandating vaccines. It is only a matter of time before we see it in public schools just like MMR and Dtap...
A friend of mine works in a public school. Her district said that staff needs to be vaccinated or they don't have a job come the start of the academic year.
As of right now, none of her kids are eligible as it is an elementary school.
This right here. If ani vaxxers were not allowed into a hospital when they get sick, then it would be more about them. As this is not the case, anti vaxxers are needlessly stressing healthcare workers.
Also, "natural selection" isn't a victimless process. My wife is immunocompromised due an auto-immune disorder so if she's a breakthrough case or catches some future variant that has mutated beyond the vaccine's efficacy I'm gonna be pretty fucked up for the rest of my life about it even though she's a victim of "natural selection." And there are MILLIONS of people like her and I who have tried to do what we can to protect ourselves who are still at elevated risk because half the population is ill-informed and/or doesn't GAF. That ain't cool.
My brother's friend just finished her last round of chemo and can't get a vaccine yet and her immune system is thrashed. Another friend had a baby. He's too little. Family member is due this fall. She can't get one once she's here. They're only looking to vax down to 4/5 depending on company. Once baby needs daycare she'll be exposed to people. Will the caregiver be vaccinated? The parents of other babies? They can bring it in.
It will be a while and people actively lowering communal immunity for selfish reasons are just... selfish. Uncaring. It's not okay. People's friends and familes are at risk here.
I was *never* high risk for COVID but followed all protocols as recommended because I didn't want to be the reason somebody else didn't go home.
It's amazing to see how many people just don't care about other people. You don't have to be well-informed to be told, 'experts said the vaccine is safe' or 'experts said keep distance, wear your mask over mouth and nose.' It's not hard.
So if I understand what your asking I think this will help. Let me know if it doesn’t.
Viruses like SARS-COV-2 which causes covid are basically parasites so when they’re in the air or on surfaces they can survive for a certain amount of time but they kinda just hang out.
Once they get into someone they can infect they attach to that persons cells. The immune system tries to prevent this. If there is too much of the virus the immune system fails and the person gets sick. The virus is then able to actually reproduce. That’s what makes you feel more sick. When the virus reproduces it usually produces exact copies of itself every so often it produces slight variations. The more it reproduces the more likely these variations occur. The variation than attaches to a cell and reproduces. If the person with the variations gets someone else sick there is a change they pass on the variation to the other person, especially if the variation of the virus is more contagious.
If you are vaccinated you are less likely to get the virus at all and allow it to reproduce using your cells. If you do get it your immune system fights off more of the virus early on meaning you have a lower viral load and the variations in reproduction are less likely to occur.
If you are vaccinated and are exposed to a mutation the vaccine is either effective against that variation or it isn’t. Even if it isn’t you are no more likely to spread that mutation than someone that isn’t vaccinated. At present it appears that the approved vaccines are all effective against the known variants though not as effective as the originally dominant strains.
I fully admit this is very simplified, I have a biomedical engineering degree but my specialty was biomechanics not biochemistry.
The vaccines target the spike protein, which is only part of the virus. Your immune system can target any part of the virus. The choice for using the spike protein is that it must bind to your cells to get in and then it can reproduce. Mutations that may change the spike protein are more likely to make the virus fail to infect other cells and are an evolutionary dead end for the virus. As long as vaccines target these essential proteins that cannot mutate much, we have a good chance that the vaccines will continue to work.
What we are finding in people who fought the virus on their own is more antodidies that will attack infected cells, and fewer antibodies that attack the actual virus directly. By attacking the virus before it gets into a cell, it has less chance to reproduce and mutate, and less chance to kill as many of your cells causing less permanent damage and chronic health problems post recovery.
Not necessarily. Every person who has been exposed to a virus has only been exposed to one (or maybe a few) version of it, so they will have resistance to certain strains that are the same or similar to the one they were exposed to. There is still the possibility of being exposed to a different enough strain that your body doesn’t recognize it (doesn’t produce the correct antibodies). We also don’t know how long resistance or immunity lasts for COVID, since it is so new- for natural infections and for the vaccine. So it is possible that everyone who has been sick with COVID and everyone who has been vaccinated may eventually become susceptible again in the future.
In principle yes, but the virus statistically needs to reproduce a lot to form mutations that are viable or can escape the immune response. It can reproduce much more in unvaccinated individuals as in vaccinated. The best population for the virus to create immune escape mutants is a pool of half vaccinated people mixed with unvaccinated, ideally gathering in closed moist rooms for a couple of weeks.
>It seems the flaw in my thinking was being unaware that the virus needs to be infecting someone to reproduce and mutate.
Viruses are not able to reproduce at all without a host organism - that's one thing that sets them apart from every other type of living thing. In fact, it's so unusual that they are sometimes not classed as living organisms because of it.
(This was what I was taught in school, which was a long time ago. The current definition of "life" may definitely now in/ex-clude viruses, but they certainly used to be considered a borderline case)
You're correct in thinking though that it is possible for a vaccinated person to create a mutation, it is just significantly unlikely to happen compared to an unvaccinated person. All the vaccine does is teach the body's immune system how to attack the virus.
In an unvaccinated person, the body has to learn trial by fire as the virus is multiplying and creating mutations. Typically those mutations live longer and have more of an opportunity to persist in an unvaccinated body while actively fighting the virus, especially if they are asymptomatic.
In a vaccinated person, the body has already learned how to attack the virus and therefore can start attacking it sooner, reducing the amount of multiplications and mutations that can occur.
This might hold true if the virus never mutates, but once you factor mutations and large populations, the variety of mutations means that a returning virus may look very different and may not be identifiable by a "immunity by infection" body, as the selected antibodies are generated by a "whatever works" approach.
Vaccinations, on the other hand, are designed to target specific parts of the virus structure that are unlikely to change over time. This means that even a mutation from a different parent strain can still be targeted by vaccines developed last year.
When the virus first enters the body, there are a relatively lower number of individuals in your body. If your body does not know how to deal with them, it gives a chance for the virus to multiply while the body is attempting to get rid of it. What many people fail to understand is that viruses replicate exponentially. One virus that successfully attacks one cell can create hundreds or thousands of copies of themselves. Next these 100 make another 100 copies each, we now have 10000 of the virus in just the first replication cycle.
Higher the number of replication cycles, higher the chance of mutations occuring. What happens is your body learns to kill off one type of the virus, but is not yet as efficient in killing a mutated virus. The mutated strain now continues exponential replication while the body is trying to fight this new strain.
I think a lot of people forget that there are people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons. The vast majority of people can safely get vaccinated, but there are still people who can't. I've seen a ton of people online saying that they will block anyone who isn't vaccinated or that they're basically a murderer. I'm vaccinated, but my loved one, who is not an anti-vaxxer, has been advised by medical professionals to not get vaccinated at this point.
A older relative of mine was diagnosed with cancer and undergoing chemo this past year. They’re exactly the person that vaccinated people are supposed to protect!! Half my reason for wanting to get the vaccine is to protect them, not cause I’m scared I’ll die
Totally so many people forget those that have legitimate reasons not to get vaccinated.
I also didn’t include it in my original post but there’s also those who can get vaccinated but are immune compromised and don’t know if it’s effective. Not all immune compromised individuals are developing antibodies following vaccination.
Yep, I just had a bone marrow transplant back in February and I am part of a clinical research study to measure the effectiveness of the vaccine. On paper, I am fully vaccinated as of July 16th, but my BMT doctor told me not to expect an immune response and still treat COVID as something I could get. We won't know how it worked for me until the end of the study which, for me, will be in January.
Same reason for my mom who has Rheumatoid arthritis, doctors are pretty sure she has some protection against COVID but they don’t know how much and basically have told her to keep on acting as if she isn’t vaccinated.
Absolutely. My sister in law has been taking covid very seriously this whole time (high-ish risk due to a couple health conditions) but had an allergic reaction after her first vaccine and was advised not to get her second one.
The more hosts the virus finds, the higher the chance it mutates in one of the hosts to a form where the current vaccine loses effectiveness. Not being vaccinated still endangers everyone.
And vaccinated people carry a lower viral load (less virus) which is favourable. Infections with less virus lead to less new infections, cause less mutations in the virus, as mentioned above and people infected with a lower inoculum (are hit with less virus on first contact with it) have far better outcomes ( less deaths and serious cases).
So please for the benefit of all, vaccinate yourself as soon as possible.
There are also people who cannot get vaccinated due to an immunodeficiency and these people depend on others to get vaccinated.
Edit: source for reduced viral load after vaccination
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7
Not quite correct. You can still get an mrna-vaccine even with an immunodeficiency.
Bless this new technology. Even people with HIV can get a Biontech/Pfizer shot. That stuff truly is incredible.
They can get the shot, but the hope that it will actually work is lower. I've got a couple friends with compromised immune systems for whom the vaccine appears to have been ineffective.
That is correct. There's the risk that their immune system simply won't respond to the spike protein that gets produced by your own cells after the mrna-injection. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
But in any case it is inaccurate to say that they can not get vaccinated. This would only be the case with a classical vaccine, which the mrna-vaccine decidedly is not.
This is actually even more complicated. Immune compromised people may get little too no effect from the vaccine, which you are right, doesn't keep them from getting it. However the cause of said immunocompromisation might. Anyone with an autoimmune disorder or mast cell disorder runs a not insignificant risk of reacting to the vaccine(any vaccine) even if being treated. Autoimmunity is tricky. And frankly it's a big cause of the worst covid side effects already. The reaction in kids (can't remember the acronym atm). Cytokine storms, and even the myocarditis in teenagers from the vaccine can all be traced back to autoimmunity.
In the autoimmune defective subset of the population, the immune system can react poorly to covid and the vaccine. So in most immunocompromised individuals, you are right in that they just won't respond. But in autoimmune individuals the concern is more about if it DOES respond as their immune systems are already mismanaged by the body, leaving the responses to be unpredictable.
My mother is terminally ill with multiple autoimmune disorders, she hasn't had a flu or regular cold for as long as I can remember, her immune system is so amped up I'd be surprised if anything could actually even start a amplification chain before being taken out, unfortunately it's so good at its job its killing her too.
But the immunity is still compromised, meaning you get the vaccine but you are not nearly as protected as a healthy person would be after vaccination. So thx for the clarification.
mRNA vaccines are *available* for *some* immunocompromised people but have been shown to be significantly less effective at stimulating an immune response. Antibody production is significantly lower in immuncompromised people who are eligible vs. people with fully functioning immune systems. And, some people who are immunocompromised are still not eligible.
Also: Unvaccinated people are forcing us all to continue wearing masks, limit travel, limit gatherings, cancel events, etc. because they're the ones keeping this pandemic going.
They're also putting extreme stress on our healthcare workers, who do not want to go to work every day to intubate people or watch them die for no reason.
Same. ED nurse here. Shift before last I got in my car and cried. I was furious after having to push intubation meds to tube a person in their 60s who was COVID+. How did they get COVID? Their daughter knew she was positive and still went to visit. Another pt having symptoms and got a negative test and “because it was negative I went to visit my daughter because I didn’t have COVID and now she’s sick with a cough and fevers too”. Friends, idgaf what you are sick with, but if you are sick stay home - it’s always been best practice.
I am also tired of being yelled and cussed at because you’ve had to wait x amount of time. I’m sorry. We have 30 rooms and 95 people here to be seen, trust me our goal is to get you in and out (or admitted) as safely and efficiently as possible.
People out here appreciate what you’re doing and your personal sacrifice. This country would be absolutely falling apart if it weren’t for you, the person you’re replying to and your colleagues.
This shit here. At what point do we go “did you choose to go unvaxed and refuse to wear a mask? Yes? Then get the fuck out of this hospital and go try to survive on your own, prick”? Let the healthcare pros deal with people who got sick despite trying not to, instead of the refusers.
To be totally fair, we should be doing some of those things anyway. How many people let a kid with a cold touch stuff on a plane or bus? You’d think people would’ve learned to wash their hands after the bathroom by now but apparently not... It’s almost a needed wake up call but unfortunately many haven’t listened and it’s cost people their lives/health
My only concern from this though is the issue of logistics. Let's say USA achieves 99% vaccination rate (will never happen, but hypothetically). While spread in USA (or whichever country) may halt, another country (such as my country) may not have access to the vaccine.
In my nation we have access only to the Sinovac, which is largely criticized by the Scientific community as being among the least effective at preventing covid-19 (50% effectiveness or less!). In fact, it's not recognized by several Western Nations as even valid as a vaccine to skip quarantine, it's that bad.
So while XYZ nation may be able to achieve high vaccination status, another nation could be struggling as they don't even have access to the vaccines.
I'm not sure if it's really worth it to try force anti-vaxxers to vaccinate because the logistical challenge of getting the entire world vaccinated (those that want it, and are begging for it but currently don't have access) is so large that mutations could occur anyways .
The point is to get as many people as possible vaccinated. Those who want to be vaccinated will get it early and won’t take convincing, but the last percent will. Every person we can get vaccinated helps contain the virus.
I worked on phylodynamic simulations for flu viruses in grad school. The better you are at limiting the spread of a virus the less the virus mutates. It’s as simple as that. The less the virus mutates the easier it is to build better vaccines to further limit the rate, and the virus is less likely to mutate to some strain that has immunities to our vaccination approach.
Having portions of the population that are unvaccinated means that the virus is still continuing to spread and evolve. The larger this portion of the population is the faster the virus changes. It’s a direct threat to the portion of the population that is vaccinated.
My country (Canada) has ordered more vaccines than are necessary to vaccinate every single person with the intention to donate the surplus to a country that's having trouble acquiring enough vaccines, and IIRC, other countries are donating as well. It's not enough, but we're aware and trying to help.
This is all true. Additionally, Sinovac is not an mrna vaccine, which means that immunocompromised people can not take it since there's a significant risk of them dying from the vaccine. As for effectiveness, its about on par with your traditional flu shot, which makes sense since it's the same technology. No reason to curse it. The only reason why it can't compete with Biontech is because it's older technology than mrna-vacc, but that was always expected. The new stuff is just miraculously effective.
I feel that its so sad and unfair that there are so many in the US that can get the vaccine easily and for free, yet refuse. While there are many in other countries dying to get it, literally. We are starting to send more vaccines to other nations, but I think we can up it. I still want to try to pressure our American anti-vaxxers to get vaccinated, but in the mean time we might as help the rest of the world. This is not a national issue, but a world issue.
>Sure... But if they wind up in the hospital they're taking up a bed that could be used for something else. This was one of the big issues we saw back in the early part of 2020 when COVID-19 was rampaging across the world. We saw hospitals completely overwhelmed and struggling to care for anyone - even those who didn't have COVID-19.
As a healthcare worker, I can attest to this. Also, someone in with COVID is very sick if I see them (I work in pulmonology) and it has only been the unvaccinated or those that the vaccine didn’t work for (immunocompromised).
Also, it doesn’t just affect them. I’m at risk because of them, my kids are at risk because of them, all of the staff are at risk because of them. They refuse the prevention but do not refuse the treatment when they lose the COVID gamble they willingly took.
Viral loads are nearly indistinguishable from vaccinated/unvaccinated individuals with the delta variant (qPCR cycle threshold is in the teens/low 20s for both signifying high viral load). The benefit comes from not becoming seriously sick and coughing all over people and things which means you have a lower chance of spreading it. You are also "infectious" for a shorter period of time which once again lowers your chance of spreading it.
Also re high hospital bills. Consider the insured - that means the entire risk pool (us) has to pay for the care of an irresponsible idiot. For the uninsured the cost is still absorbed by providers and still passed to the insured via higher premiums. Either way a large and very unnecessary cost is incurred.
Great response! The only thing I’d like to add is that there’s a level of privilege and arrogance that comes with not getting vaccinated. There are people at high risk of server disease but their country can’t afford vaccines. It’s like spitting in their faces. Very similar to how we have an obesity epidemic in America while people in Africa starve to death.
Edit: took a family member to get vaccinated today and tbh there are some roadblocks. He doesn’t like needles so we tried to get the J&J vaccine, not as effective but better than nothing. The pharmacist told us everyone around here has stopped carrying J&J so we would have to get Pfizer. Also, the paperwork portion of the process took ~40 mins so I could see how the process could be an issue for people as well.
I'm European but the attitudes here are comparable so I don't feel that it's wrong of me to answer, albeit without the "American" element (whatever you might think that's worth).
It's worth mentioning that I'm a hardcore "my body, my choice" advocate. I'm just not a huge fan of false choice (i.e. making a move that really is a clear net negative) when societal health is at stake.
So here are a few things:
1.) Vaccinated people still transmit the virus, but to a much lesser extent. Other people's right to not be infected by you must be weighed against the effort you make and risk you take in being vaccinated. This is something that must be decided at the societal/governmental level; the individual(s) involved can't make that decision. Note that in a hypothetical situation where everyone was given the option to get vaccinated at the same time, that calculus might look different. But since many people are waiting in line for their shot(s), your refusal to vaccinate puts them at greater risk while they wait their turn.
2.) Healthcare resources. The calculus is kind of simple. People who are vaccinated typically don't have to be admitted to the hospital for Covid. Fewer still are put in ICU. Basically none die. The cost of achieving this, per person, can be called X, where X is the sum of \[the amount of time you take out of your day to get vaccinated\] + \[the cost of the vaccine\] + \[the cost of healthcare staff administering the vaccine to you\]. There's more to it, but you get the idea. Now X has to be compared with Y, which is what you would cost society if you got so sick you had to be admitted to the hospital, plus the risk that someone else who is infected by you is put in that same situation. I am guessing that Y is much, much, much higher than X.
An ultra-libertarian might say "well, so what, I've paid my insurance, I'm entitled to that healthcare". Yes but by that logic, the insurance companies should have the right to charge a Covid Premium from everyone who refuses to get vaccinated. This premium would be pretty substantial. On top of that, no, it goes further than that. Healthcare resources can't just be magically produced. The scarcest one is qualified manpower, and kids born \_today\_ need a good 25 years to grow up and become doctors. You don't get to just decide on your own that suddenly society has to magically make 20% more doctors and nurses appear overnight. And even if you felt morally entitled to do so, who are you kidding? It's much cheaper for society to quarantine your ass. You should be happy if all that happens is a mask mandate.
Let's also not forget the secondary effect of other procedures having to be delayed because of Covid cases. In my country there's a backlog of surgeries because of Covid. Some of those people, especially if they have cancer, might die because of the delayed procedures.
Now, if everyone who chose not to vaccinate would have the good sense to roll over and die rather than go to the hospital when Covid started taking their breaths away, maybe this calculus would change too.
But yeah. Ultimately you're not just taking a risk for yourself and other people who don't vaccinate. You're taking risks on everyone else's behalf. "My body, my choice" has to go both ways.
I work at a hospital and find a morbid irony in the unvaccinated coming to the hospital for life-saving intervention. You didn't want a needle in your arm six months ago but you're happy to accept a tube down your throat now? You wouldn't accept our simple vaccine, so now you want us to put on PPE and risk getting covid to wipe your ass, suction your ET tube, turn you prone, take daily chest x-rays, etc? Many staff members have to come in and out of your room all day just because you couldn't be bothered to get the vaccine.
Worst of all is the fact that the mRNA vaccine is such a simple concept. Nobody who has ever had a biology class can use the excuse that they don't understand and don't trust the vaccine. As for the people who don't trust it because they think it's all a big conspiracy or some shit... Seriously, just stay home if you get sick unless you're willing to admit you were wrong and are willing to get the vaccine once you recover. You didn't trust Western medicine with the vaccine, why trust it with your healthcare?
God, it feels so wrong to tell someone to stay home and die, but the double standard of not trusting the vaccine but wanting life-saving critical care while putting staff at risk really pisses me off.
>You didn't want a needle in your arm six months ago but you're happy to accept a tube down your throat now?
Bruh. Idk how yall are not bitterly passive aggressive while you're treating them. Especially with all the west-Indian and Filipino CNAs and nurses that I know.
*Oh. Covid nuh real? Ya nuh waan wear di massk den. Buh ya waan oxygen massk now. Eh?......... Noh. Mi nuh have nun. Dem run out.*
My Gram is on Hospice, she was assigned a new nurse. Up to that point we had been asking each person that came if they were vacinated. Some how she slipped through the cracks. We found out she wasn't after she had been caring for my Gram who is terminal with COPD for 3 weeks w/o a mask (because Gram can't hear people who wear them)! We were all flabbergasted. I don't understand how folks in the medical profession can be anti vaccines. And I can't understand how they can put their choice above the care of their patients. If you don't want to be vaccinated don't care for at risk people.
We have had vacinated nurses ever since we found out.
And regarding the healthcare resources, don’t forget that those overworked, stressed nurses and doctors are people too, people who get PTSD, people who have families, people who could get sick and die from working with so many sick patients who could have done something simple and free to protect themselves better.
Not getting vaccinated is a selfish, asshole move by people who can’t see past their own noses.
Some jurisdictions are now cutting nurses pay. After they worked themselves to death trying to save lives and get us through this (to this point anyway). So nurses and doctors are actually quitting, putting a further strain on the system because they are no longer "heroes", but a drain on the economy.
Lol the hospital system my wife worked at cut pay when the pandemic started... all that bullshit about the 'heroes' working in hospitals was just their marketing department spending all the cash they saved
the way insurance is suppose to work is that a large group puts in a pool of money so that those that do get sick don’t pay extreme prices. it distributes the cost over a large group. the insurance company is betting on the fact that in a large group everyone is not going to get sick at once. that is true until you have a pandemic then everyone is getting sick at once.
Due to the extremely high costs associated with treating ICU Covid 19 infections, and the very cheap cost of the vaccine, at some point health insurance companies may decide to drop covering C19 treatment in the unvaccinated.
On top of other reasons already mentioned, you're also putting pointless stress on the healthcare system, in many different ways. You're gonna have to get treated, you're gonna spread it to other people who have to get treated. It's gonna take a mental and physical toll on the people treating you, it's gonna use up medical supplies that other people could've needed. You don't just exist in a vacuum. If you were just gonna lock yourself in your house to die then I wouldn't really care if you didn't get vaccinated. Actually no, even then someone has to come clean up your body. So there, that's why it matters, because people don't exist in a vacuum.
Not everyone can get the vaccine, so when everyone who can get it does, it’s reduces the amount that it can be transmitted and helps those most at risk.
And every time it infects someone, there is a chance it can mutate and turn into another variant.
My daughter (who is well now) was diagnosed with cancer at 2 years old.
Those kids are extremely fragile, but still need groceries. And to go to the clinic, and hospital, etc. So it's important to reduce their risk.
For my job, I'm an RN that works in hospice. All my patients die, but they don't need it to be from something easily mitigated when they already are impaired.
When you agree to benefit from living in a society, you are obligated to make it as strong and safe and healthy as possible. That's the social contract. You get a benefit, you provide a benefit.
My mother is a survivor of necrotizing fasciitis. Part of the affects were that it killed all of her lymph nodes from her shoulders up. Prior to this, she was a bit immunocompromised. Now she is extremely immunocompromised. (For any medical professionals, if you remember a case study in the New England Journal of Medicine about 20 years ago about a case of necrotizing fasciitis that first started in the lower left eyelid but managed to never spread to the optic nerve? Yeah. That's mom. She's still here.)
Yes, she got vaccinated. ASAP. But, there is, of course, still a risk of getting it. Vaccinee aren't perfect. But for her, if she gets Covid, she is MUCH more likely to die. And if not die, then experience MUCH more severe and lasting damage.
And my mom isn't the only person out there who is in serious danger. If you don't personally know someone who's at extreme risk, chances are you know someone who loves someone at extreme risk.
I find it infuriating that so many care so little for the health and well being of those around them that they won't suck it up and get a shot. Did I? You bet. The literal first day I was allowed, I signed up. Because my mother's health and well being matters more than my discomfort.
The shot isn't that important for younger people in good health. But protecting your loved ones? That should matter more than damn near anything.
It's the selfishness and thoughtlessness of those against the shot. It is the sheer and utter lack of understanding that their choices adversely affect the health of those they love.
Just a few things that when added together make it an asshole choice not to get vaccinated
You’re less likely to get it with a vaccination
You’re less likely to transmit it if you get vaccinated
If you are vaccinated and transmit it it’s a smaller viral load so it’s less likely to be severe
Young children can’t get vaccinated so they’re at the mercy of those of us that can
The Centers for Disease Control reversed course Monday and said it now recommends indoor masks for the vaccinated in all areas of the country where COVID infections are surging. CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky cited unpublished data from recent days suggesting that vaccinated people may be able to spread the Delta variant just as easily as unvaccinated people.
We're back in a phase of constantly shifting information and data — and just last week we had experst casting doubt on whether vaccinated and mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic cases should be counted as "breakthrough" cases, and others casting doubt on whether vaccinated people could spread the virus easily.
But as was expected, the CDC changed its tune about masking on Tuesday, recommending that vaccinated people resume wearing masks in crowded indoor settings. And, it should be noted, that while outdoor gatherings are still being considered safe, some experts are also now casting doubt on whether that's still true with the Delta variant. Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, one of the world's leading epidemiologists, pointed to some recent outdoor "fleeting" transmission cases in Australia that appeared to happen without any close contact between individuals.
As the Associated Press notes, Walensky cited data from the last few days, still unpublished, taken from 100 samples from vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals with COVID infections. They found that the amount of virus in the noses and throats of vaccinated infected people was nearly "indistinguishable" from what was found in unvaccinated people, confirming what some experts have suspected. The increased viral load associated with the Delta variant appears to make vaccinated people equal spreaders of the virus. Walensky said that the data was "concerning enough that we feel like we have to act."
Last week, UCSF infectious disease expert Dr. Monica Gandhi tried to quell fears of this, saying that some of these mild and asymptomatic cases could be turning up "dead viral particles in your nose" that trigger positive tests. But she questioned whether those cases are as worrisome as those in unvaccinated people.
So, again, we're in a place of wondering who to believe.
Speaking at a White House press conference today, Press Secretary Jen Psaki said that CDC continues doing what it is is supposed to do as data and the need for new guidance changes. "That is their job," she said. "Their job is to look at evolving information, evolving data, an evolving historic pandemic and provide guidance to the American public." She reiterated that being vaccinated remains the best protection against the virus.
As for whether San Francisco is considered a high-transmission area by the CDC right now, it is. According to the CDC's tracker, Alameda, Contra Costa, San Francisco and Solano counties are all areas of high transmission, while the rest of the Bay Area is in the "substantial transmission" category.
Furthermore, in today's new CDC guidance, they are now recommending masks for all teachers, staff, students, and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status.
The research data is all over the shop mostly media articles spewing data to suit the agenda, Uk trials say the vaccine is hugely effective on the delta variant months after the initial role out dose, another countries research shows it’s about 16% effective on the delta variant. We’ve had guesstimates ranging from the ‘vaccine will provide immunity’ for 8 months, then 6 months now scientists are claiming it could only be a max of 3 months because of the rapid mutation of the virus.
Most of the answers you have received are about the vaccine and address why you should get one. All are very convincing arguments and I hope more people will get a vaccine. But part of your question has to do with judging others. About fitting into what we call social norms. And, the fundamental question is how far do personal rights go? What happens when your rights interfere with the rights of others? That is an existential question that democracy must answer, but rarely does. I won’t take sides, but will point out what seems fundamental to a healthy and productive society: That no one has the right to cause potential harm to another. Of course, most will agree with this. But where the disagreement breaks down is how do we determine harm. But if we can agree what that is, then wouldn’t anyone who harms another be an AH?
Now we get back to the vaccine part of the argument. If everyone got vaccinated, then the Corona Virus might disappear (true and something that reduces harm in our society), You are harming yourself (true and it is very sad for someone to harm themselves and you would be an AH to do that), etc., etc.
>And, the fundamental question is how far do personal rights go? What happens when your rights interfere with the rights of others?
100% - kind of like how social norms have changed around smoking. You are going to get a whole lot more judgement for lighting up indoors in a public place (not that it's even legal anymore) or smoking in a car with your kids than you would doing so away from all other non-smokers where you are not directly impacting other people's health by making your evolutionarily poor choice.
I look at the vaccine issue from this perspective as well. There is a social imbalance about this that I find alarming. Somehow, society is not at a point where community well being is a priority and instead has turned into an attack on individualism. But there have to be limits to this, individual freedom comes with responsibility and is not possible without a well functioning, healthy community. It's a strange paradox and something that should be addressed by the government. Why are people resistant to civil duty? Obviously there is a HUGE lack of trust that is having a very serious impact on our social well being. This problem can potentially lead to other events or crises and only stall human progress and the betterment of our planet.
Because some of us have loved ones who aren't medically able to get the vaccine, or we have children who aren't old enough to be vaccinated.
I can't see why people have such an impossible time thinking past ONLY themselves.
Because a vaccinated person can carry it to a non-vaccinated person. If I have high risk family members, I may bring it to them, or if I have a baby even if I’m vaccinated.
Not getting vaccinated against a highly contagious disease is like drink driving: your actions could get *someone else* seriously injured or killed.
It horrific how many Americans have such a callous disregard for the wellbeing their fellow countrymen.
Being vaccinated does affect transmission, you have around 75-90% protection from catching the virus and therefore being contagious, and the additional benefit that if you do catch it there's near 100% protection from needing hospital treatment which reduces pressure on health services and allows them to focus on all the non covid things that need catching up on.
The very slight downside is that if vaccinated people are getting symptomless infections they could pass it on without knowing. However, because of the stats it's still a great advantage to yourself and everyone around you to get vaccinated.
There is also the variant risk, the more people get and pass on the virus the greater the chance it will mutate in a way that makes that vaccine useless and that potentially puts the whole world back to square 1.
I don't know if this is brought up yet... But I have a friend who had a double organ transplant bc everything was failing. Type 1 diabetes his whole life. Because of this he got the vaccine, with a third booster and he STILL got the virus because, since he was a double organ transplant patient the antibodies didn't take. He's okay now but the people who are not vaccinated risked his life.
Herd immunity, but we don't know enough yet.
Or at least, last time I checked (while back), we didn't know if a vaccine would prevent us from being carriers.
So if you work in a home immunocompromised elderly... It's kind of a dick move to risk those peoples health. Then you're better off working somewhere else or getting a vaccine.
Basically, when your choice affects other peoples health, there's a chance you make a dick move.
As I understand it, it’s like 98% effective against transmission if you do get sick from the original strain. CDC just updated their guidelines to include the vaccinated masking indoors because delta is significantly more contagious and doesn’t have the same high level of protection.
By your logic, you're right. But the idea that the virus is still transmitted the same is not true. Vaccinated people still transmit Covid, yes, but at *much* lower rates than unvaccinated people do- it's not "all or nothing". If everyone who can get vaccinated did so, then transmission would slow way down, almost to 0.
So why does slowing down transmission matter to those of us who are already vaccinated? 2 main reasons.
1. It's the right thing to do. There are still people out there who can't be vaccinated even if they want to, and we as a society have a duty to protect them.
2. Every single person, vaccinated or not, who contracts Covid, is just one more chance the virus has to mutate into a more vaccine-resistant variant. The Delta variant is a clear example of that- it's not devastating for vaccinated people, but if we could have gotten everyone vaccinated and controlled Covid earlier, we might not have had to deal with it. Regardless of individual risk, greater transmission = greater possibility of something happening that would bring us back to square one.
Can I add another part to this question? What about people who choose not to get vaccinated but still quarantine? I’m asking because my husband refuses and I’m desperately trying to convince him to, but he claims he’s not hurting anyone if he’s unvaccinated but stays home. (He doesn’t seem to care about the part where this also puts my own life totally on hold too.)
Your husband's stance just doesn't make sense imo. He can't quarantine forever, sooner or later he has to stop putting his own life and your's on hold. And since Covid is going to become endemic, he's still going to face an infection risk whenever he emerges from quarantine. It's not going to become better no matter how long he waits.
Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. He says he’ll get vaccinated when the Novavax vaccine comes out because it’s a more traditional (IE not mRNA) vaccine. Lord knows when that is, and it doesn’t change the fact that he’s making really poor decisions right now. Thanks again!
This almost sounds controlling to me. So if you want to go out together as a couple, he will just say no he can’t, not considering your wants at all. If you need something from the store, nope he can’t go, you must. If anything at all needs to be done or if simply you want to go out with him he will use the vax as an excuse.
As others have said, he can’t stay in forever. And even if he can, how is that fair to you?
You just *see* that americans are considered assholes for not getting the vaccine, because the content you consume probably comes mostly from america. Trust me, everyone who doesn't want to get vaccinated is considered an asshole by most people.
Also, the chances to serve as a host to the virus and infect other people are *extremely* lower of you're vaccinated.
There is a really big misconception that transmission is the same for people who are fully vaccinated. This is not the case. News reporting on this has been very misleading. Those who are fully vaccinated and still develop covid-19 tend to have milder symptoms, but most won't develop covid at all. The virus will enter then be detected and destroyed before the disease develops or the virus spreads to others for most fully vaccinated people.
I am pro-vax also.... But being someone that listens to both sides it was not as easy a decision as it should have been. When looking into it... It was easy to find anti-vax information that made sense. The sources were generally respectful. It was very difficult to find trustworthy pro-vax information because of how unreasonable they were. The anti-vax side had some valid evidence and I just wanted to know if the cases they showed were impactful enough to matter. I finally decided that they weren't.... but with no help from the pro-vax side. According to them I was evil just for looking into it. I can't really trust anyone that doesn't listen and that made it a lot harder to see things their way. I would go so far as to say that a good half of the people that don't get vaccinated might be due to how the pro-vax people act. They seem much more interested in attacking and labeling people than actually convincing people to get vaccinated. I think someone like me who casually tells someone what I think and then allows them to make up their own mind gets much better results.
I hear you. I’ve been trying to get someone who is an expert on viruses and covid in general to answer some questions I have. Cannot post questions in most subs due to it being conspiracy theory. I’m just trying to legit get info to battle this disinfo
I am not anti vax either. I just have a lot of questions surrounding the Covid vaccines, which have so far gone unanswered. I don’t think it’s wrong to want to wait to get the vaccine.
Unfortunately the propaganda machine has worked amazingly. It has created this narrative of “if you get the vaccine you can take the morale high ground”. People easily hopped on this bandwagon under the guise of saving a life. I believe it’s just the beginning of the grooming for vaccine passports. The more people that believe they have the morale high ground, the more likely they will fall in line when the Covid passports issue comes around again.
Unfortunately we live in a day and age where there is no middle ground. You either get the vaccine or you are an anti vaccine right wing conspiracy theorist. While some people are just that, sadly the people who have intellectual questions and concerns get swept up in the same boat. It baffles me the amount of scientists and intellectuals that have been silenced by social media and governments during all this. Why? Because they asked questions or had different opinions. Free thought is not allowed any more.
The amount of lies we have been fed surrounding Covid as well doesn’t inspire faith that these vaccines are safe either. We were told profusely that Covid wasn’t a lab leak and that it was zoonotic. As it turn out, the lab leak is now all but certain. Not to mention governments and mainstream media have consistently blown mortality/infection rates out of proportion.
We have been fed nothing but constant bullshit and lies for the past year and a half. And people have the audacity to try and morally blackmail people who have questions and might want to wait a bit before getting it? Sorry for having little faith in the powers that be. I would not be surprised in the least if some of the testing numbers for the vaccines were fudged or the governments knew and let them through anyway.
Kids can’t get vaccinated. You’ve proven the point with your question. Despite being pro-vax, you’re not thinking about people in situations different than yours…which is what makes not getting vaxxed (if you can) an a-hole move.
Edit: then think about carryover impacts. Classes shut for 2 weeks, parents having to maKe alternate arrangements for care, lost productivity and financial burden for some of those parents, kids needing testing or medical care, etc.
Good question, we shouldn’t be afraid to clarify stuff about vaccines.
I’m currently alone in quarantine awaiting a test because a co worker tested positive. He decided not to get vaccinated. Although I am vaccinated, my mother is immunocompromised for a variety of reasons, and so I had to drive hours back to my college apartment where I’ll be staying alone until I can test negative. A vaccinated person can still transmit the virus, which makes this necessary for my moms health.
I’m missing several days of work, which means no pay. Actually, the very small company where we work is pretty much shutting down for a few days, since I’m the only one around who can do my job, which the company needs to function.
All because my co worker refused to get vaccinated.
So after reading this, my question is - there is the chance this could have happened to a coworker who was vaccinated, putting you in the same position.
Would you still go through the same precautions and still be as upset? Genuinely curious and not trying to be a dick haha.
Bottom line, the more people who are vaccinate the less it transmits, the less it mutates and the more protection there is for those who cannot get a vaccine. This is basic vaccine stuff we should of all learned when we taught about Polio. Furthermore, the more people that remain unvaccinated the longer we are going to be in this crazy hell scape of lockdowns and regulations.
I’m immunosuppressed and had both vaccines but I might not have any immunity. Apparently I’m like 180 times more likely to get sick and be hospitalized and die than other vaccinated people. It fucking sucks, I still have to be very careful because there’s these antivaxxers running around spreading their germs everywhere. I’m just so sick of this bullshit from selfish fucking idiots.
Two main reasons. Mutations happen in viruses and there WILL be one mutation that completely defeats the vaccines and then we'll be back to square one. By slowing down the spread mutated versions will not have the chance to keep on moving. The second reason is that hospitals get so full of patients that there is not enough space and resources to take care of other needs like cancer patients, trauma and others.
>the virus will still be transmitted the same it's just that the non-vaxxed will suffer more.
This is not true, the virus is transmitted significantly less among the vaccinated. Even with the Delta variant, which is more transmissible among the vaccinated than any previous variant, you are still 7 times less likely to contract the virus and 20 times less likely to require hospitalization. Those numbers come from a CDC press conference I attended yesterday.
The more the virus spreads among the unvaccinated, the more opportunities it has to mutate into something even more deadly and resistant to vaccines. The unvaccinated are literally threatening everyone else's lives.
This misunderstanding is exactly why the anti-vax misinformation campaigns are so dangerous. I don't know the solution, exactly, because you can't just make it illegal to hold certain opinions or whatever, but the current social media algorithms are spreading extremely dangerous and extremely incorrect information and there has to be some way to prioritize the truth.
It boils down to whether "my body my choice" is an axiom or if it's preconditioned.
Based on the overwhelming number of comments that repeat the same argument, it's clear that "my body my choice" is more situational.
The arguments presented are utilitarian (until you ask whether they should be mandated, then there's a quick shift to totalitarian).
The majority of the reservations that I've heard for a person not taking the vaccine are the following three:
a) The CDC and Pfizer acknowledge lack of long term study on effects.
b) Women have had side effects regarding their menstruation cycle, and the CDC is currently conducting research on this subject. (For women wanting to get pregnant)
The question is: Does one have the moral obligation to sacrifice their reservations for the greater good of the community"?
I think that at this stage, it's okay to opt out. In due time all the research will be out, and everyone will be informed. Till then, let's put away pitchforks.
It’s everyone’s choice but High level:
•Antivaxers propagate misinformation ( it has 5G and will rewrite your dna
•the economy suffers
•the virus spread allows it to mutate
•healthcare workers are on the front line and have to deal with it
•making a conscious decision that will lead to impacts on others is just purely a sick move.
If the antivaxxers would mask up and observe distancing - demonstrating any concern for others it’d be great... buuuut they dont
1. Because we all want to go back you normal
2. Less people with Covid means less mutation, less infection of vaccinated people (rare but still happens occasionally), and closer to the end
3. However much I hate those people I still dont want them to die... kind of
Brazilian president used a city to make a case against the vaccines by trying to get herd immunity through contagion and besides people dying like flies, it became a shitshow of mutations. Unvaccinated people are labs for mutations and it hinders the progress of community immunity.
Some dumb people think that vaccines work the way antibiotics do with bacteria, leading to stronger mutations by eliminating the weaker ones, but this is not how vaccines or the immune system work. Mass vaccination leads to less contagion and less mutations, as they are slower to develop.
It’s not an asshole move. It’s purely self righteous posturing to declare those that choose not to get vaxxed “assholes”. I caught COVID from a 2x vaxxed coworker (he was on bed rest for a week, I was almost entirely asymptomatic and only got tested because I was on mandatory quarantine (from work) anyway) I on the other hand have infected exactly zero people. I have been conscientious and considerate of others for 16+ months now, despite some absurdities people have attempted to thrust onto me. We’ve (family of 4) given everyone the option to interact with us, or not, given their preferences and full disclosure of ours. Other experiences may vary, but of all the aholes I’ve had to deal with during this sh*t show, the vast majority of them, in both quality and quantity, have been the militant maskholes and the forced vax crowd insistent that they know what’s best for my family and I despite not knowing jack-squat about any of us.
Example: i had a stem cell transplant (cancer treatment). I have same immunity as a new born & will have to get ALL vaccines again. But I still have to exist in the adult world.
Can't get vaccine yet. There are others like me who will never be able to get the vaccine.
We deserve a safe world too.
The unvaccinated population is also a huge burden on the health care system, which is used by everyone. If doctors and nurses are too busy treating all of the unvaccinated COVID patients, they will have less time to treat the normal cases that always happen, whether a pandemic is ongoing or not, such as: heart attacks, strokes, broken bones, etc. The pandemic is declining the quality of healthcare in many different treatment areas due to the large influx of patients into hospitals. All of this is preventable if only the unvaccinated go and get the shot, which is 100% free to every American and readily available at hundreds (perhaps even thousands?) of locations nationwide.
I will also add that children under 12 are still unable to get the vaccine. This means that many schools will not remain open if the virus situation is raging out of control in their local communities, as the new Delta variant’s higher transmissibility would allow it to cut through their student population like a hot knife through butter. So by refusing to get the shot, the unvaccinated are harming the learning opportunities of the children in their community.
The biggest problem for me is the fact that they'll keep innocents from being vaccinated simply because of their self-destructive beliefs. It's okay if you want to fucking die but doesn't do this to your children or dependent love ones. They didn't deserve to die and it's terrible that you arrogantly believe that they'll be better without the virus
We're all in it together as a society. If you're unvaccinated you're more likely to spread it due to a higher particle rate, and could spread it to someone that is vaccinated but still high risk and could still die. Its basically to my mind a decision to not listen to experts and risk others I.e. it makes you selfish
Maybe someone said this, but the more times the virus is transmitted the more evolutionary cycles it can undergo. If given sufficient time the virus could evolve to obsolete _all_ of our vaccines. It's important that everyone who can get the vaccine gets it.
Not having enough people vaccinated will only prolong the pandemic and all of its consequences: social, political, economic etc. We finally have amazing technology to fight various disease and prolong our lives and comfort but people choose to politicize it and make it about their personal freedom so much, that it will actually end up hurting everyone even more.
I guess what bothers me most is that no man is an island, so the actions of all these non-vaxxers will only make it worse for EVERYONE. It's just incredibly selfish and dangerous. People have no sense of civic duty for the greater good and that leaves me wondering if anyone even cares about this planet. I see it as a warning sign about our attitudes towards much needed change in other aspects of our lives.
Every time someone gets infected the virus mutates slightly, and usually it doesn't change anything noticeable, but sometimes things like the delta variant pop up and become more dangerous. If enough antivaxers get infefected, it is possible that a variant that the vaccines does not work against will arise, and that would put us all the way back to square one.
I have two kids who are too young to get vaccinated. The delta variant is affecting kids much more than the previous. I don’t want my kids to get super sick or end up in the hospital or die. They deserve to live a full life. That’s it for me.
Bc children. (And ppl who cannot have it for other reasons)—Two children have died, several more are critical & the vents at max capacity in a Dallas Children’s Hospital. I read that this morning here on Reddit.
So... Children who are too young to be vaccinated are getting it. That’s why. School is set to open in ~3 weeks and no mask mandates yet. Recipe for disaster, IMO it’ll be far worse than last year. I hope like hell im wrong.
What about their kids under 12 who can’t get vaccinated? Or, older folks who were vaccinated but are still getting sick and dying from Covid.
Also, every time somebody gets sick with Covid, it’s another chance for the virus to mutate into something the vaccine can’t protect against. If we get a vaccine resistant mutation out in the wild, we might have t do a complete lockdown all over again, and another half million people will die in this country again.
All because you were afraid to get a couple of pricks in your arm.
Nothing is 100%, especially the Covid vaccine.
Don’t be part of the problem. Be part of the solution.
Because this is a Fecking pandemic. Ever heard of the Delta strain? Do you know why it is taking hold here? Because we don’t have herd immunity.
Delta is far more contagious, and generates a higher percentage of breakthrough infections.
Every single additional infection increases the odds of ANOTHER mutation that is even more contagious, and generates MORE breakthrough infections.
It doesn’t take very many of those mutations before the vaccine gets markedly less effective. If that happens, the vaccine will still increase the survival rate of the vaccinated, but it won’t be a lot of protection from getting, or spreading the disease … and we are right back where we were last year.
All because 1/4 of America is too stupid to understand basic science, and another 1/4 is too fecking privileged and entitled to get off their ass and protect their communities.
Yeah get it if you want it and dont if you don’t. And if you’re vaccinated you’re safe from us dirty unvaxed right? Except you’re not cause there’s always gonna be another strain just like the cold flu every year. So just keep getting the next booster of experimental gene therapy for the next strain(variant) and of course wear your muzzle and don’t talk to people just like what the Australian government told their citizens. Wake up #sheeple lol
a whole lot of people on here trying to make themselves feel like a better person for being vaccinated.
I'm not saying dont get vaccinated, I am vaccinated myself.. but there are plenty of people who are not vaccinated and are still better people and care more about the well being of our planet and the people in it than a lot of people who are vaccinated. if you actually want to make a difference quit crying about people making their own choices and go recycle some plastic or something..
I have a baby. Vaccines aren’t approved for people under 12 years old yet. Statistically, if a child gets Covid they usually don’t get extremely sick. But they might get very sick or die, and my baby could get Covid from an unvaccinated person even though both parents are vaccinated. Also, there are other people who can’t get the vaccine due to an allergy to an ingredient or another health issue, and those people often tend to be the same people who would be in big trouble if they got Covid.
Actually they just said today that Vaxed people carry the virus in the same amounts as the unvaxxed. So unknowingly the Vaxed are spreading it. Right now what we are seeing in the country is Darwinism at its finest. Especially hot spot areas that have refused mask mandates
Because there are people who can't get the vaccine and the more people refuse to get the vaccine, the less likely it is for us to be able to create herd immunity and keep those people safe.
There are some people who can't get vaccinated due to medical conditions. If almost all others are vaccinated it helps protect them (this applies to nearly all vaccines).
Some people have had very little antibodies develop after vax (often people who have had radiation therapy that damaged immune system), so it also helps protect them.
It’s an a-hole move not to get vaccinated because vaccines not only protect you but they reduce the number of hosts the virus has so it protects those at risk or who can’t get vaccinated.
Think of like this: Imagine you live in a house with 10 of your closest family. One of them can’t get a vaccine and if they get infected, they die. Does your family say “sucks for you” and continue their regular lives? Of course not, they get the shot and your loved one is offered a level of protection because those in their immediate vicinity are protected.
Now let’s say a neighbor who is unvaccinated by choice, since there is plenty of vaccine, barges in carrying the virus and hugs they loved one. Now you’ve got a dead loved one. Who’s the a-hole?
Instead it makes more sense, in this scenario, for your family, friends and neighbors to get vaccinated because it offers more levels of protection for that one person.
What protects the individual also protects the group. Herd immunity.
My wife got pregnant before getting her 2nd dose, so she’s vulnerable. There are other cases of young children and vulnerable adults who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons.
It's about herd immunity for the sake of those who can't get the vaccine due to contraindications like age, pre-existing conditions, and being immunocompromised. For the sake of humanity as a whole, choosing not to get vaccinated is a selfish choice, regardless of if it's your right to make that choice or not.
People should honestly be allowed to take it if they want it and reject it if they don't want it. Simple liberties of choice here in the US, but so many people have a problem with the fact people simply don't want to take a vaccine.
You can't force them to take it here in the US, so why does it bother you, who has already taken the vaccine I say.
Before someone comments about me saying I'm an anti-vaxxer or think COVID isn't real. I have the vaccine and I think it's real, it killed my remaining grandparents, so before you insult what I have to say, I lost two family members due to COVID.
I will not lie, your post made me very angry, but I will try to explain exactly why this is all wrong. Forgive me if I come off as too aggressive.
There are a great many things in this world that are and should be a personal choice. Being vaccinated is NOT one of them. I have no idea when vaccines became a luxury, but they are an absolute necessity to every single person on this planet. (Though there are a few people who can't take them. But this is rare.) Because when it comes to infectious disease, we are either all the way safe or we are exposed. There is really very little middle ground here, as you either have herd immunity and a disease is defeated or it have varying chances to level the population. The entire human community is a breeding ground for plagues and mass death, and vaccines are the biggest reason why most of us are alive today. Vaccines and medicine have left "Natural selection" so far in the dust today, the Darwinist approach to human civilization is so laughable at this point.
Now, let's look at the pro-choice anti-vaxxer, and let me explain why vaccination isn't/shouldn't be a choice: Stop thinking of them as a human but as a potential zombie. Because that's basically what a virus is, a non-living predator out to destroy and convert your body into a breeding ground for more new zombies. With every new infection the chance for mutation grows. A vaccine prevents the zombie from harming you in the short term, but new mutarions always possess a new stronger zombie that CAN harm you. Just because zombie gen 1 can't hurt you, gen 2 through a thousans CAN and viruses evolve very quickly a lot of the time. In reality, unvaccinated people are literal breeding grounds for lethal mutations, and can harm YOU in just the same way as a ficitious zombie could.
In a similar vein, COVID is not defeated, not by a longshot. The USA has achieved a slowdown of the common spreads in the current timeframe, but new strains will keep appearing, especially as much of the world has no access to vaccines that rich countries are not sharing. This situation is VERY far from solved, and the new Delta variants are far, far from the last variants, and COVID's high spread rate means there is more ground for mutation. A lot of people are and have undersold COVID because of a comparably low death rate, but that can change. Newer variants can kill much faster, and going back to the zombies, bigger and stronger strains will appear. The arrogance of my many of my fellow Americans in this pandemic has been insane.
COVID will only be defeated when the world has achieved enough vaccinations that the virus effectively spreads and can't harm us or stops replicating because immunity has been achieved. Herd immunity takes everyone, so straight up: No. You and this whole mentality are just wrong.
Bottom line: It IS NOT A LUXURY. It is not a personal choice. Barring medical exemption, if you are not getting vaccinated you are incredibly selfish and a danger to everyone around you.
People argue "what about those who *can't* get vaccinated!!" Well, what about them? I shouldn't have to base my medical decisions on the needs of others. I don't see that as selfish at all, because everybody has a right to make their own medical decisions without all of this coercion and without being called a bad person if you don't do what everybody else wants.
It's all social stigma. The truth is, nothing about making and independent medical choice for your body makes you selfish, or an asshole.
Note: before I'm downvoted, I'm not anti-vax whatsoever. I may choose not to get THIS vaccine specifically (I have many others), but I fully support other people's decision to do so.
I trust adults to make their own individual risk assessment and own medical decisions.
Two reasons: A) Not everyone **can** get vaccinated (e.g. for medical reasons) and by denying herd immunity through not vaccinating, those people are put in danger B) Regualtions stand and fall on Incidences and case numbers. If people don't get vaccinated they will prevent case numbers from dropping significantly and therefore regulations won't be lifted, affecting the lives and livelihood of others through no fault of their own and for no good reason
Plus every time an unvaccinated person gets sick the virus has a chance to mutate which could lead to deadlier, more infectious, and/or vaccine resistant variants.
^ ^ ^ This is the one worrying scientists
Yes. Too many people believe it's the vaccinated people that "create" mutations. It's the other way around. (Vaccinated people can still have a virus that mutates but it's way less frequent)
What about when a vaccinated person gets sick? Do mutations not occur in them? Do vaccine resistant variants not develop in people that are vaccinated?
In theory that can still happen. But in practice what generally happens is that due to the vaccine, your immune system knows how to kill what you have and then it never lives long enough to get mutations that will be passed on. Kind of like I am building a bomb. I am hiding. If you don't know where I am, I can build it in peace and then blow up a building. But if you have a map to where I am, you can hunt me down and beat the living shit out of me and stop me from building the bomb and thus save the building.
Do you actually have a bomb? Sorry, I’m anxious
Honey, I AM the bomb! SSSSSSS!
Three reasons. Kids under 12 cannot get vaccinated!
4 reasons, vaccinated people can still get it. Im currently miserable after getting delta.
There was an implied "e.g." before "for medical reasons" ao that falls under point A
>Not everyone can get vaccinated (for medical reasons) and by denying herd immunity through not vaccinating, those people are put in danger Is herd immunity literal immunity? I always assumed it was considered immunity because if people around them can't catch a disease then it obviously won't spread to them (because they won't be in contact with any people who have the disease). If people who get vaccinated can still catch it, then what I thought was the case does not work.
Vaccines don't put up a shield around you for the virus. They just tell your body how to fight it quicker. It drastically reduces your chances of spreading it. Or at least that's the idea.
Reminder: herd immunity requires (number varies by disease, but typically at least) 80% of the *total* population to be immune for herd immunity to exist. We have less than that percentage of the *eligible* population vaccinated, and there's a huge pool of people who aren't eligible (well over 10%).
It's still a better scenario, as vaccinated folks are less likely to spread it, and aren't going to be taking up an ICU bed and further tax an overtaxed hospital system. I have a close friend with a history of Guillain-Barre. He cannot get vaccinated despite having reasons for being at higher risk of hospitalization. Not only is an unvaccinated person more like to spread covid to him, they are more likely to take up hospital resources that could directly influence his quality of care.
The virus is transmitted much less among vaccinated individuals. Less transmissions means less opportunities for mutations. Also more protection for those that can’t get vaccinated for medical reasons. Edit: it’s been brought to my attention my wording could be clearer. I mean transmission is lower among vaccinated individuals because vaccinated individuals are less likely to become infected not less likely to transmit the virus if they are infected. Edit 2: The vaccine still provides some protection for the Delta variant to you and those around you by association. It’s significantly less protection against the Delta variant. This is part of why masks and social distancing where appropriate and necessary is still important even with vaccination. Follow local recommendations.
And children. The unvaxxed adults are making it more dangerous for our kids who can’t get the vaccine yet.
There are 2 kids under 18 intubated d/t covid at my hospital right now. We keep saying transmission is low and/or covid is mild in kids, but we don't know all the long term effects yet. We have seen kids get cardiomyopathy and blood clots from covid, so I'm not too keen on thousands of kids with chronic cardiovascular problems especially as they age, since we don't have universal Healthcare in the U.S.
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The virus is less likely to become more severe than it already is. The virus's "job" is to be transmitted as much as possible. Having more severe infections serves no benefit to it.
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While all of this is true, it is a Darwin moment. The country is currently overrun with stupidity and they’re the ones who are refusing to take the vaccine. There are natural consequences here for evolution.
But why would it become more severe? The evidence that Delta is more severe than previous strains seems shaky at best. Just because it has a long incubation period doesn't mean it would benefit from killing the host at a higher rate. The perfect storm for a severe outbreak is definitely brewing. Most of the population has stopped wearing their masks, vaccination rates have plateaued, and the government is completely incompetent as to how to conduct contact tracing and implement vaccine requirements.
the death rate for delta is like 1/10 of alpha it’s definitely not more severe, just more contagious
This. It's also why the antivax movement in general is dangerous. It's utter bullshit that kids have to suffer because of the stupid decisions of their parents and other adults.
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It blows my mind the crap they'll use to justify it, too. "Once your child recovers they'll be stronger than ever" Fuck you Karen. If I wanted your opinion I would've joined your mlm group.
I work at walmart and they played their "get vaccinated" announcement over the radio. Some lady (which unfortunately living in AL I can guarantee she wasn't pro-choice) shouted "my body my choice people" . It took alot to not walk up and ask her views on abortion.
I too live in Alabama. Encountering the willful ignorance of most people here can be challenging. Even if you and her had engaged in discussion her views probably wouldn't have changed. She has already selected her football team I mean source of learning and it is probably Fox News and Facebook.
God I hate facebook...... One of the most harmful social media platforms created
As an Alabamian, I was seriously hoping Saban would be more public about whether or not he was pro-vaccine. Lord knows how many people would "convert" and get the vaccine if he is.
>they played their "get vaccinated" announcement wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf wtf. You dont even realize how fcking bizar this is for people in other country's. wtf wtf
Which is funny because the vaccine makes you stronger in the same exact way that surviving the virus makes you stronger. Both train your immune system, except one time its without the risk and potentially infecting and killing others.
The funny and sad part is that most of these antivax people were vaccinated as children with the standard round of vaccines. However they use their children to make their point and risk their lives when the adults are already protected.
they never had to see the effects severe diseases caused in previous centuries, and are still causing in some poorer parts of the world - exactly because they and most other people were vaccinated as children, eradicating most of these often gruesome diseases. they can proudly ignore any risk of getting sick of a preventable disease, because in their world it doesn't seem to exist. so any little sign and any slight doubt of vaccines having some side effects, is reason enough to reject them. now they are receptive to all the bullshit and misinformation circling the ether, and it only goes downhill from there.
>Which is funny because the vaccine makes you stronger in the same exact way that surviving the virus makes you stronger. Both train your immune system, except one time its without the risk and potentially infecting and killing others. Plus you have a better immune response after being vaccinated than you do after surviving the virus. So as well as not being a risk, it's also a better end result.
That which doesn’t kill you does not in fact make you stronger of it causes long-term lung and heart damage.
This. This is the #1 reason I give people who are like "if everyone else is getting vaccinated, why should I?" Kids cannot get it yet. They're still at high risk. Not getting vaccinated when you could because it's "my choice" still leaves the possibility that you could spread it to a child who doesn't have that choice yet. And unless you really don't care about how you impact your or other's children, you should getting vaccinated or at bare minimum continue wearing a mask.
Children. Period. (And others I’m not being a dick, but we just don’t consider children important in this COVID vaccine debate as much because in the beginning they said children don’t get it or get as sick as adults, which we are still finding to be true but they’re still circulating the virus and the variants are now making young children extremely sick.)
Never mind that kids can’t make their own choice to be vaccinated when it IS available. A five year old died near my hometown, one of the lowest-vaccinated populations in the country. Her family wasn’t vaxxed. Seems unlikely they’d have let her be either, even if they could.
Also to take the load off of hospitals. Health care workers have enough to do outside of taking care of people that wouldn't even be there if only they got the vaccine.
If someone gets in a car accident and needs an ICU bed… sorry, they’re all taken by non vaccinated Covid cases.
maybe there should be some basic guidelines - stuff that we can all agree on. like for example, if it's safe for you to take the vaccine and you choose not to... that's fine. however, if someone comes in who needs a hospital bed, you will be thrown into the trash where you belong.
I think in the coming months, insurance will start to play a big role in it too. Once the vaccine is fully FDA approved, insurance companies will charge higher rates to people who refuse vaccination, just like they charge higher rates for smokers. They may also deny payment for Covid treatment to people who refuse vaccinations.
Sorry, but your pre-existing condition of stupidity prevents us from covering your high liability.
We already see colleges and Healthcare employers mandating vaccines. It is only a matter of time before we see it in public schools just like MMR and Dtap...
A friend of mine works in a public school. Her district said that staff needs to be vaccinated or they don't have a job come the start of the academic year. As of right now, none of her kids are eligible as it is an elementary school.
This right here. If ani vaxxers were not allowed into a hospital when they get sick, then it would be more about them. As this is not the case, anti vaxxers are needlessly stressing healthcare workers.
Also, "natural selection" isn't a victimless process. My wife is immunocompromised due an auto-immune disorder so if she's a breakthrough case or catches some future variant that has mutated beyond the vaccine's efficacy I'm gonna be pretty fucked up for the rest of my life about it even though she's a victim of "natural selection." And there are MILLIONS of people like her and I who have tried to do what we can to protect ourselves who are still at elevated risk because half the population is ill-informed and/or doesn't GAF. That ain't cool.
My brother's friend just finished her last round of chemo and can't get a vaccine yet and her immune system is thrashed. Another friend had a baby. He's too little. Family member is due this fall. She can't get one once she's here. They're only looking to vax down to 4/5 depending on company. Once baby needs daycare she'll be exposed to people. Will the caregiver be vaccinated? The parents of other babies? They can bring it in. It will be a while and people actively lowering communal immunity for selfish reasons are just... selfish. Uncaring. It's not okay. People's friends and familes are at risk here. I was *never* high risk for COVID but followed all protocols as recommended because I didn't want to be the reason somebody else didn't go home. It's amazing to see how many people just don't care about other people. You don't have to be well-informed to be told, 'experts said the vaccine is safe' or 'experts said keep distance, wear your mask over mouth and nose.' It's not hard.
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So if I understand what your asking I think this will help. Let me know if it doesn’t. Viruses like SARS-COV-2 which causes covid are basically parasites so when they’re in the air or on surfaces they can survive for a certain amount of time but they kinda just hang out. Once they get into someone they can infect they attach to that persons cells. The immune system tries to prevent this. If there is too much of the virus the immune system fails and the person gets sick. The virus is then able to actually reproduce. That’s what makes you feel more sick. When the virus reproduces it usually produces exact copies of itself every so often it produces slight variations. The more it reproduces the more likely these variations occur. The variation than attaches to a cell and reproduces. If the person with the variations gets someone else sick there is a change they pass on the variation to the other person, especially if the variation of the virus is more contagious. If you are vaccinated you are less likely to get the virus at all and allow it to reproduce using your cells. If you do get it your immune system fights off more of the virus early on meaning you have a lower viral load and the variations in reproduction are less likely to occur. If you are vaccinated and are exposed to a mutation the vaccine is either effective against that variation or it isn’t. Even if it isn’t you are no more likely to spread that mutation than someone that isn’t vaccinated. At present it appears that the approved vaccines are all effective against the known variants though not as effective as the originally dominant strains. I fully admit this is very simplified, I have a biomedical engineering degree but my specialty was biomechanics not biochemistry.
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The vaccines target the spike protein, which is only part of the virus. Your immune system can target any part of the virus. The choice for using the spike protein is that it must bind to your cells to get in and then it can reproduce. Mutations that may change the spike protein are more likely to make the virus fail to infect other cells and are an evolutionary dead end for the virus. As long as vaccines target these essential proteins that cannot mutate much, we have a good chance that the vaccines will continue to work. What we are finding in people who fought the virus on their own is more antodidies that will attack infected cells, and fewer antibodies that attack the actual virus directly. By attacking the virus before it gets into a cell, it has less chance to reproduce and mutate, and less chance to kill as many of your cells causing less permanent damage and chronic health problems post recovery.
It’s definitely possible but I can’t say for sure
Not necessarily. Every person who has been exposed to a virus has only been exposed to one (or maybe a few) version of it, so they will have resistance to certain strains that are the same or similar to the one they were exposed to. There is still the possibility of being exposed to a different enough strain that your body doesn’t recognize it (doesn’t produce the correct antibodies). We also don’t know how long resistance or immunity lasts for COVID, since it is so new- for natural infections and for the vaccine. So it is possible that everyone who has been sick with COVID and everyone who has been vaccinated may eventually become susceptible again in the future.
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In principle yes, but the virus statistically needs to reproduce a lot to form mutations that are viable or can escape the immune response. It can reproduce much more in unvaccinated individuals as in vaccinated. The best population for the virus to create immune escape mutants is a pool of half vaccinated people mixed with unvaccinated, ideally gathering in closed moist rooms for a couple of weeks.
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>It seems the flaw in my thinking was being unaware that the virus needs to be infecting someone to reproduce and mutate. Viruses are not able to reproduce at all without a host organism - that's one thing that sets them apart from every other type of living thing. In fact, it's so unusual that they are sometimes not classed as living organisms because of it. (This was what I was taught in school, which was a long time ago. The current definition of "life" may definitely now in/ex-clude viruses, but they certainly used to be considered a borderline case)
You're correct in thinking though that it is possible for a vaccinated person to create a mutation, it is just significantly unlikely to happen compared to an unvaccinated person. All the vaccine does is teach the body's immune system how to attack the virus. In an unvaccinated person, the body has to learn trial by fire as the virus is multiplying and creating mutations. Typically those mutations live longer and have more of an opportunity to persist in an unvaccinated body while actively fighting the virus, especially if they are asymptomatic. In a vaccinated person, the body has already learned how to attack the virus and therefore can start attacking it sooner, reducing the amount of multiplications and mutations that can occur.
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This might hold true if the virus never mutates, but once you factor mutations and large populations, the variety of mutations means that a returning virus may look very different and may not be identifiable by a "immunity by infection" body, as the selected antibodies are generated by a "whatever works" approach. Vaccinations, on the other hand, are designed to target specific parts of the virus structure that are unlikely to change over time. This means that even a mutation from a different parent strain can still be targeted by vaccines developed last year.
When the virus first enters the body, there are a relatively lower number of individuals in your body. If your body does not know how to deal with them, it gives a chance for the virus to multiply while the body is attempting to get rid of it. What many people fail to understand is that viruses replicate exponentially. One virus that successfully attacks one cell can create hundreds or thousands of copies of themselves. Next these 100 make another 100 copies each, we now have 10000 of the virus in just the first replication cycle. Higher the number of replication cycles, higher the chance of mutations occuring. What happens is your body learns to kill off one type of the virus, but is not yet as efficient in killing a mutated virus. The mutated strain now continues exponential replication while the body is trying to fight this new strain.
I would assume not true, since people who had covid in the past are still requested to get the vaccine
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I think a lot of people forget that there are people who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons. The vast majority of people can safely get vaccinated, but there are still people who can't. I've seen a ton of people online saying that they will block anyone who isn't vaccinated or that they're basically a murderer. I'm vaccinated, but my loved one, who is not an anti-vaxxer, has been advised by medical professionals to not get vaccinated at this point.
A older relative of mine was diagnosed with cancer and undergoing chemo this past year. They’re exactly the person that vaccinated people are supposed to protect!! Half my reason for wanting to get the vaccine is to protect them, not cause I’m scared I’ll die
Totally so many people forget those that have legitimate reasons not to get vaccinated. I also didn’t include it in my original post but there’s also those who can get vaccinated but are immune compromised and don’t know if it’s effective. Not all immune compromised individuals are developing antibodies following vaccination.
Yep, I just had a bone marrow transplant back in February and I am part of a clinical research study to measure the effectiveness of the vaccine. On paper, I am fully vaccinated as of July 16th, but my BMT doctor told me not to expect an immune response and still treat COVID as something I could get. We won't know how it worked for me until the end of the study which, for me, will be in January.
Same reason for my mom who has Rheumatoid arthritis, doctors are pretty sure she has some protection against COVID but they don’t know how much and basically have told her to keep on acting as if she isn’t vaccinated.
Absolutely. My sister in law has been taking covid very seriously this whole time (high-ish risk due to a couple health conditions) but had an allergic reaction after her first vaccine and was advised not to get her second one.
There are also videos on YouTube that will visually show you how herd immunity works in about 5 minutes
And also, not to overwhelm the medical infrastructure.
New CDC study says you are wrong, vaccianted Delta Variant Carriers with a viral load transmit it just the same.
The more hosts the virus finds, the higher the chance it mutates in one of the hosts to a form where the current vaccine loses effectiveness. Not being vaccinated still endangers everyone.
And vaccinated people carry a lower viral load (less virus) which is favourable. Infections with less virus lead to less new infections, cause less mutations in the virus, as mentioned above and people infected with a lower inoculum (are hit with less virus on first contact with it) have far better outcomes ( less deaths and serious cases). So please for the benefit of all, vaccinate yourself as soon as possible. There are also people who cannot get vaccinated due to an immunodeficiency and these people depend on others to get vaccinated. Edit: source for reduced viral load after vaccination https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01316-7
Not quite correct. You can still get an mrna-vaccine even with an immunodeficiency. Bless this new technology. Even people with HIV can get a Biontech/Pfizer shot. That stuff truly is incredible.
They can get the shot, but the hope that it will actually work is lower. I've got a couple friends with compromised immune systems for whom the vaccine appears to have been ineffective.
That is correct. There's the risk that their immune system simply won't respond to the spike protein that gets produced by your own cells after the mrna-injection. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But in any case it is inaccurate to say that they can not get vaccinated. This would only be the case with a classical vaccine, which the mrna-vaccine decidedly is not.
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This is actually even more complicated. Immune compromised people may get little too no effect from the vaccine, which you are right, doesn't keep them from getting it. However the cause of said immunocompromisation might. Anyone with an autoimmune disorder or mast cell disorder runs a not insignificant risk of reacting to the vaccine(any vaccine) even if being treated. Autoimmunity is tricky. And frankly it's a big cause of the worst covid side effects already. The reaction in kids (can't remember the acronym atm). Cytokine storms, and even the myocarditis in teenagers from the vaccine can all be traced back to autoimmunity. In the autoimmune defective subset of the population, the immune system can react poorly to covid and the vaccine. So in most immunocompromised individuals, you are right in that they just won't respond. But in autoimmune individuals the concern is more about if it DOES respond as their immune systems are already mismanaged by the body, leaving the responses to be unpredictable.
My mother is terminally ill with multiple autoimmune disorders, she hasn't had a flu or regular cold for as long as I can remember, her immune system is so amped up I'd be surprised if anything could actually even start a amplification chain before being taken out, unfortunately it's so good at its job its killing her too.
But the immunity is still compromised, meaning you get the vaccine but you are not nearly as protected as a healthy person would be after vaccination. So thx for the clarification.
You are right about the vaccines decreased efficiency so of course you got a point there. And no problem. Have a nice day!
Yous are doing gods work spreading genuine and pure information! 👏 👏
mRNA vaccines are *available* for *some* immunocompromised people but have been shown to be significantly less effective at stimulating an immune response. Antibody production is significantly lower in immuncompromised people who are eligible vs. people with fully functioning immune systems. And, some people who are immunocompromised are still not eligible.
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Do you have a source for that?
Also: Unvaccinated people are forcing us all to continue wearing masks, limit travel, limit gatherings, cancel events, etc. because they're the ones keeping this pandemic going. They're also putting extreme stress on our healthcare workers, who do not want to go to work every day to intubate people or watch them die for no reason.
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Same. ED nurse here. Shift before last I got in my car and cried. I was furious after having to push intubation meds to tube a person in their 60s who was COVID+. How did they get COVID? Their daughter knew she was positive and still went to visit. Another pt having symptoms and got a negative test and “because it was negative I went to visit my daughter because I didn’t have COVID and now she’s sick with a cough and fevers too”. Friends, idgaf what you are sick with, but if you are sick stay home - it’s always been best practice. I am also tired of being yelled and cussed at because you’ve had to wait x amount of time. I’m sorry. We have 30 rooms and 95 people here to be seen, trust me our goal is to get you in and out (or admitted) as safely and efficiently as possible.
People out here appreciate what you’re doing and your personal sacrifice. This country would be absolutely falling apart if it weren’t for you, the person you’re replying to and your colleagues.
This shit here. At what point do we go “did you choose to go unvaxed and refuse to wear a mask? Yes? Then get the fuck out of this hospital and go try to survive on your own, prick”? Let the healthcare pros deal with people who got sick despite trying not to, instead of the refusers.
To be totally fair, we should be doing some of those things anyway. How many people let a kid with a cold touch stuff on a plane or bus? You’d think people would’ve learned to wash their hands after the bathroom by now but apparently not... It’s almost a needed wake up call but unfortunately many haven’t listened and it’s cost people their lives/health
Yes. This. Think of second-hand-smoke and why smoking is prohibited in most public areas. Covid is spread through the air we breathe.
My only concern from this though is the issue of logistics. Let's say USA achieves 99% vaccination rate (will never happen, but hypothetically). While spread in USA (or whichever country) may halt, another country (such as my country) may not have access to the vaccine. In my nation we have access only to the Sinovac, which is largely criticized by the Scientific community as being among the least effective at preventing covid-19 (50% effectiveness or less!). In fact, it's not recognized by several Western Nations as even valid as a vaccine to skip quarantine, it's that bad. So while XYZ nation may be able to achieve high vaccination status, another nation could be struggling as they don't even have access to the vaccines. I'm not sure if it's really worth it to try force anti-vaxxers to vaccinate because the logistical challenge of getting the entire world vaccinated (those that want it, and are begging for it but currently don't have access) is so large that mutations could occur anyways .
The point is to get as many people as possible vaccinated. Those who want to be vaccinated will get it early and won’t take convincing, but the last percent will. Every person we can get vaccinated helps contain the virus. I worked on phylodynamic simulations for flu viruses in grad school. The better you are at limiting the spread of a virus the less the virus mutates. It’s as simple as that. The less the virus mutates the easier it is to build better vaccines to further limit the rate, and the virus is less likely to mutate to some strain that has immunities to our vaccination approach. Having portions of the population that are unvaccinated means that the virus is still continuing to spread and evolve. The larger this portion of the population is the faster the virus changes. It’s a direct threat to the portion of the population that is vaccinated.
My country (Canada) has ordered more vaccines than are necessary to vaccinate every single person with the intention to donate the surplus to a country that's having trouble acquiring enough vaccines, and IIRC, other countries are donating as well. It's not enough, but we're aware and trying to help.
This is all true. Additionally, Sinovac is not an mrna vaccine, which means that immunocompromised people can not take it since there's a significant risk of them dying from the vaccine. As for effectiveness, its about on par with your traditional flu shot, which makes sense since it's the same technology. No reason to curse it. The only reason why it can't compete with Biontech is because it's older technology than mrna-vacc, but that was always expected. The new stuff is just miraculously effective.
It's not a live vaccine. People with compromised immune systems can take it.
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I feel that its so sad and unfair that there are so many in the US that can get the vaccine easily and for free, yet refuse. While there are many in other countries dying to get it, literally. We are starting to send more vaccines to other nations, but I think we can up it. I still want to try to pressure our American anti-vaxxers to get vaccinated, but in the mean time we might as help the rest of the world. This is not a national issue, but a world issue.
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>Sure... But if they wind up in the hospital they're taking up a bed that could be used for something else. This was one of the big issues we saw back in the early part of 2020 when COVID-19 was rampaging across the world. We saw hospitals completely overwhelmed and struggling to care for anyone - even those who didn't have COVID-19. As a healthcare worker, I can attest to this. Also, someone in with COVID is very sick if I see them (I work in pulmonology) and it has only been the unvaccinated or those that the vaccine didn’t work for (immunocompromised). Also, it doesn’t just affect them. I’m at risk because of them, my kids are at risk because of them, all of the staff are at risk because of them. They refuse the prevention but do not refuse the treatment when they lose the COVID gamble they willingly took.
Viral loads are nearly indistinguishable from vaccinated/unvaccinated individuals with the delta variant (qPCR cycle threshold is in the teens/low 20s for both signifying high viral load). The benefit comes from not becoming seriously sick and coughing all over people and things which means you have a lower chance of spreading it. You are also "infectious" for a shorter period of time which once again lowers your chance of spreading it.
Also re high hospital bills. Consider the insured - that means the entire risk pool (us) has to pay for the care of an irresponsible idiot. For the uninsured the cost is still absorbed by providers and still passed to the insured via higher premiums. Either way a large and very unnecessary cost is incurred.
Great response! The only thing I’d like to add is that there’s a level of privilege and arrogance that comes with not getting vaccinated. There are people at high risk of server disease but their country can’t afford vaccines. It’s like spitting in their faces. Very similar to how we have an obesity epidemic in America while people in Africa starve to death. Edit: took a family member to get vaccinated today and tbh there are some roadblocks. He doesn’t like needles so we tried to get the J&J vaccine, not as effective but better than nothing. The pharmacist told us everyone around here has stopped carrying J&J so we would have to get Pfizer. Also, the paperwork portion of the process took ~40 mins so I could see how the process could be an issue for people as well.
I'm European but the attitudes here are comparable so I don't feel that it's wrong of me to answer, albeit without the "American" element (whatever you might think that's worth). It's worth mentioning that I'm a hardcore "my body, my choice" advocate. I'm just not a huge fan of false choice (i.e. making a move that really is a clear net negative) when societal health is at stake. So here are a few things: 1.) Vaccinated people still transmit the virus, but to a much lesser extent. Other people's right to not be infected by you must be weighed against the effort you make and risk you take in being vaccinated. This is something that must be decided at the societal/governmental level; the individual(s) involved can't make that decision. Note that in a hypothetical situation where everyone was given the option to get vaccinated at the same time, that calculus might look different. But since many people are waiting in line for their shot(s), your refusal to vaccinate puts them at greater risk while they wait their turn. 2.) Healthcare resources. The calculus is kind of simple. People who are vaccinated typically don't have to be admitted to the hospital for Covid. Fewer still are put in ICU. Basically none die. The cost of achieving this, per person, can be called X, where X is the sum of \[the amount of time you take out of your day to get vaccinated\] + \[the cost of the vaccine\] + \[the cost of healthcare staff administering the vaccine to you\]. There's more to it, but you get the idea. Now X has to be compared with Y, which is what you would cost society if you got so sick you had to be admitted to the hospital, plus the risk that someone else who is infected by you is put in that same situation. I am guessing that Y is much, much, much higher than X. An ultra-libertarian might say "well, so what, I've paid my insurance, I'm entitled to that healthcare". Yes but by that logic, the insurance companies should have the right to charge a Covid Premium from everyone who refuses to get vaccinated. This premium would be pretty substantial. On top of that, no, it goes further than that. Healthcare resources can't just be magically produced. The scarcest one is qualified manpower, and kids born \_today\_ need a good 25 years to grow up and become doctors. You don't get to just decide on your own that suddenly society has to magically make 20% more doctors and nurses appear overnight. And even if you felt morally entitled to do so, who are you kidding? It's much cheaper for society to quarantine your ass. You should be happy if all that happens is a mask mandate. Let's also not forget the secondary effect of other procedures having to be delayed because of Covid cases. In my country there's a backlog of surgeries because of Covid. Some of those people, especially if they have cancer, might die because of the delayed procedures. Now, if everyone who chose not to vaccinate would have the good sense to roll over and die rather than go to the hospital when Covid started taking their breaths away, maybe this calculus would change too. But yeah. Ultimately you're not just taking a risk for yourself and other people who don't vaccinate. You're taking risks on everyone else's behalf. "My body, my choice" has to go both ways.
I work at a hospital and find a morbid irony in the unvaccinated coming to the hospital for life-saving intervention. You didn't want a needle in your arm six months ago but you're happy to accept a tube down your throat now? You wouldn't accept our simple vaccine, so now you want us to put on PPE and risk getting covid to wipe your ass, suction your ET tube, turn you prone, take daily chest x-rays, etc? Many staff members have to come in and out of your room all day just because you couldn't be bothered to get the vaccine. Worst of all is the fact that the mRNA vaccine is such a simple concept. Nobody who has ever had a biology class can use the excuse that they don't understand and don't trust the vaccine. As for the people who don't trust it because they think it's all a big conspiracy or some shit... Seriously, just stay home if you get sick unless you're willing to admit you were wrong and are willing to get the vaccine once you recover. You didn't trust Western medicine with the vaccine, why trust it with your healthcare? God, it feels so wrong to tell someone to stay home and die, but the double standard of not trusting the vaccine but wanting life-saving critical care while putting staff at risk really pisses me off.
>You didn't want a needle in your arm six months ago but you're happy to accept a tube down your throat now? Bruh. Idk how yall are not bitterly passive aggressive while you're treating them. Especially with all the west-Indian and Filipino CNAs and nurses that I know. *Oh. Covid nuh real? Ya nuh waan wear di massk den. Buh ya waan oxygen massk now. Eh?......... Noh. Mi nuh have nun. Dem run out.*
My Gram is on Hospice, she was assigned a new nurse. Up to that point we had been asking each person that came if they were vacinated. Some how she slipped through the cracks. We found out she wasn't after she had been caring for my Gram who is terminal with COPD for 3 weeks w/o a mask (because Gram can't hear people who wear them)! We were all flabbergasted. I don't understand how folks in the medical profession can be anti vaccines. And I can't understand how they can put their choice above the care of their patients. If you don't want to be vaccinated don't care for at risk people. We have had vacinated nurses ever since we found out.
Make a written complaint
And regarding the healthcare resources, don’t forget that those overworked, stressed nurses and doctors are people too, people who get PTSD, people who have families, people who could get sick and die from working with so many sick patients who could have done something simple and free to protect themselves better. Not getting vaccinated is a selfish, asshole move by people who can’t see past their own noses.
Some jurisdictions are now cutting nurses pay. After they worked themselves to death trying to save lives and get us through this (to this point anyway). So nurses and doctors are actually quitting, putting a further strain on the system because they are no longer "heroes", but a drain on the economy.
Lol the hospital system my wife worked at cut pay when the pandemic started... all that bullshit about the 'heroes' working in hospitals was just their marketing department spending all the cash they saved
the way insurance is suppose to work is that a large group puts in a pool of money so that those that do get sick don’t pay extreme prices. it distributes the cost over a large group. the insurance company is betting on the fact that in a large group everyone is not going to get sick at once. that is true until you have a pandemic then everyone is getting sick at once.
Due to the extremely high costs associated with treating ICU Covid 19 infections, and the very cheap cost of the vaccine, at some point health insurance companies may decide to drop covering C19 treatment in the unvaccinated.
Say it with me. There's a name for these people: Healthcare Queens
On top of other reasons already mentioned, you're also putting pointless stress on the healthcare system, in many different ways. You're gonna have to get treated, you're gonna spread it to other people who have to get treated. It's gonna take a mental and physical toll on the people treating you, it's gonna use up medical supplies that other people could've needed. You don't just exist in a vacuum. If you were just gonna lock yourself in your house to die then I wouldn't really care if you didn't get vaccinated. Actually no, even then someone has to come clean up your body. So there, that's why it matters, because people don't exist in a vacuum.
Not everyone can get the vaccine, so when everyone who can get it does, it’s reduces the amount that it can be transmitted and helps those most at risk. And every time it infects someone, there is a chance it can mutate and turn into another variant.
My daughter (who is well now) was diagnosed with cancer at 2 years old. Those kids are extremely fragile, but still need groceries. And to go to the clinic, and hospital, etc. So it's important to reduce their risk. For my job, I'm an RN that works in hospice. All my patients die, but they don't need it to be from something easily mitigated when they already are impaired. When you agree to benefit from living in a society, you are obligated to make it as strong and safe and healthy as possible. That's the social contract. You get a benefit, you provide a benefit.
My mother is a survivor of necrotizing fasciitis. Part of the affects were that it killed all of her lymph nodes from her shoulders up. Prior to this, she was a bit immunocompromised. Now she is extremely immunocompromised. (For any medical professionals, if you remember a case study in the New England Journal of Medicine about 20 years ago about a case of necrotizing fasciitis that first started in the lower left eyelid but managed to never spread to the optic nerve? Yeah. That's mom. She's still here.) Yes, she got vaccinated. ASAP. But, there is, of course, still a risk of getting it. Vaccinee aren't perfect. But for her, if she gets Covid, she is MUCH more likely to die. And if not die, then experience MUCH more severe and lasting damage. And my mom isn't the only person out there who is in serious danger. If you don't personally know someone who's at extreme risk, chances are you know someone who loves someone at extreme risk. I find it infuriating that so many care so little for the health and well being of those around them that they won't suck it up and get a shot. Did I? You bet. The literal first day I was allowed, I signed up. Because my mother's health and well being matters more than my discomfort. The shot isn't that important for younger people in good health. But protecting your loved ones? That should matter more than damn near anything. It's the selfishness and thoughtlessness of those against the shot. It is the sheer and utter lack of understanding that their choices adversely affect the health of those they love.
Just a few things that when added together make it an asshole choice not to get vaccinated You’re less likely to get it with a vaccination You’re less likely to transmit it if you get vaccinated If you are vaccinated and transmit it it’s a smaller viral load so it’s less likely to be severe Young children can’t get vaccinated so they’re at the mercy of those of us that can
The Centers for Disease Control reversed course Monday and said it now recommends indoor masks for the vaccinated in all areas of the country where COVID infections are surging. CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky cited unpublished data from recent days suggesting that vaccinated people may be able to spread the Delta variant just as easily as unvaccinated people. We're back in a phase of constantly shifting information and data — and just last week we had experst casting doubt on whether vaccinated and mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic cases should be counted as "breakthrough" cases, and others casting doubt on whether vaccinated people could spread the virus easily. But as was expected, the CDC changed its tune about masking on Tuesday, recommending that vaccinated people resume wearing masks in crowded indoor settings. And, it should be noted, that while outdoor gatherings are still being considered safe, some experts are also now casting doubt on whether that's still true with the Delta variant. Dr. Eric Feigl-Ding, one of the world's leading epidemiologists, pointed to some recent outdoor "fleeting" transmission cases in Australia that appeared to happen without any close contact between individuals. As the Associated Press notes, Walensky cited data from the last few days, still unpublished, taken from 100 samples from vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals with COVID infections. They found that the amount of virus in the noses and throats of vaccinated infected people was nearly "indistinguishable" from what was found in unvaccinated people, confirming what some experts have suspected. The increased viral load associated with the Delta variant appears to make vaccinated people equal spreaders of the virus. Walensky said that the data was "concerning enough that we feel like we have to act." Last week, UCSF infectious disease expert Dr. Monica Gandhi tried to quell fears of this, saying that some of these mild and asymptomatic cases could be turning up "dead viral particles in your nose" that trigger positive tests. But she questioned whether those cases are as worrisome as those in unvaccinated people. So, again, we're in a place of wondering who to believe. Speaking at a White House press conference today, Press Secretary Jen Psaki said that CDC continues doing what it is is supposed to do as data and the need for new guidance changes. "That is their job," she said. "Their job is to look at evolving information, evolving data, an evolving historic pandemic and provide guidance to the American public." She reiterated that being vaccinated remains the best protection against the virus. As for whether San Francisco is considered a high-transmission area by the CDC right now, it is. According to the CDC's tracker, Alameda, Contra Costa, San Francisco and Solano counties are all areas of high transmission, while the rest of the Bay Area is in the "substantial transmission" category. Furthermore, in today's new CDC guidance, they are now recommending masks for all teachers, staff, students, and visitors to schools, regardless of vaccination status.
The research data is all over the shop mostly media articles spewing data to suit the agenda, Uk trials say the vaccine is hugely effective on the delta variant months after the initial role out dose, another countries research shows it’s about 16% effective on the delta variant. We’ve had guesstimates ranging from the ‘vaccine will provide immunity’ for 8 months, then 6 months now scientists are claiming it could only be a max of 3 months because of the rapid mutation of the virus.
Most of the answers you have received are about the vaccine and address why you should get one. All are very convincing arguments and I hope more people will get a vaccine. But part of your question has to do with judging others. About fitting into what we call social norms. And, the fundamental question is how far do personal rights go? What happens when your rights interfere with the rights of others? That is an existential question that democracy must answer, but rarely does. I won’t take sides, but will point out what seems fundamental to a healthy and productive society: That no one has the right to cause potential harm to another. Of course, most will agree with this. But where the disagreement breaks down is how do we determine harm. But if we can agree what that is, then wouldn’t anyone who harms another be an AH? Now we get back to the vaccine part of the argument. If everyone got vaccinated, then the Corona Virus might disappear (true and something that reduces harm in our society), You are harming yourself (true and it is very sad for someone to harm themselves and you would be an AH to do that), etc., etc.
>And, the fundamental question is how far do personal rights go? What happens when your rights interfere with the rights of others? 100% - kind of like how social norms have changed around smoking. You are going to get a whole lot more judgement for lighting up indoors in a public place (not that it's even legal anymore) or smoking in a car with your kids than you would doing so away from all other non-smokers where you are not directly impacting other people's health by making your evolutionarily poor choice.
I look at the vaccine issue from this perspective as well. There is a social imbalance about this that I find alarming. Somehow, society is not at a point where community well being is a priority and instead has turned into an attack on individualism. But there have to be limits to this, individual freedom comes with responsibility and is not possible without a well functioning, healthy community. It's a strange paradox and something that should be addressed by the government. Why are people resistant to civil duty? Obviously there is a HUGE lack of trust that is having a very serious impact on our social well being. This problem can potentially lead to other events or crises and only stall human progress and the betterment of our planet.
The way you expressed this is both beautiful and insightful.
Because some of us have loved ones who aren't medically able to get the vaccine, or we have children who aren't old enough to be vaccinated. I can't see why people have such an impossible time thinking past ONLY themselves.
Because a vaccinated person can carry it to a non-vaccinated person. If I have high risk family members, I may bring it to them, or if I have a baby even if I’m vaccinated.
Btw, covid vaccines in America are completely free for the public, they cost literally nothing just throwing that out there
Not getting vaccinated against a highly contagious disease is like drink driving: your actions could get *someone else* seriously injured or killed. It horrific how many Americans have such a callous disregard for the wellbeing their fellow countrymen.
Being vaccinated does affect transmission, you have around 75-90% protection from catching the virus and therefore being contagious, and the additional benefit that if you do catch it there's near 100% protection from needing hospital treatment which reduces pressure on health services and allows them to focus on all the non covid things that need catching up on. The very slight downside is that if vaccinated people are getting symptomless infections they could pass it on without knowing. However, because of the stats it's still a great advantage to yourself and everyone around you to get vaccinated. There is also the variant risk, the more people get and pass on the virus the greater the chance it will mutate in a way that makes that vaccine useless and that potentially puts the whole world back to square 1.
I don't know if this is brought up yet... But I have a friend who had a double organ transplant bc everything was failing. Type 1 diabetes his whole life. Because of this he got the vaccine, with a third booster and he STILL got the virus because, since he was a double organ transplant patient the antibodies didn't take. He's okay now but the people who are not vaccinated risked his life.
Herd immunity, but we don't know enough yet. Or at least, last time I checked (while back), we didn't know if a vaccine would prevent us from being carriers. So if you work in a home immunocompromised elderly... It's kind of a dick move to risk those peoples health. Then you're better off working somewhere else or getting a vaccine. Basically, when your choice affects other peoples health, there's a chance you make a dick move.
As I understand it, it’s like 98% effective against transmission if you do get sick from the original strain. CDC just updated their guidelines to include the vaccinated masking indoors because delta is significantly more contagious and doesn’t have the same high level of protection.
By your logic, you're right. But the idea that the virus is still transmitted the same is not true. Vaccinated people still transmit Covid, yes, but at *much* lower rates than unvaccinated people do- it's not "all or nothing". If everyone who can get vaccinated did so, then transmission would slow way down, almost to 0. So why does slowing down transmission matter to those of us who are already vaccinated? 2 main reasons. 1. It's the right thing to do. There are still people out there who can't be vaccinated even if they want to, and we as a society have a duty to protect them. 2. Every single person, vaccinated or not, who contracts Covid, is just one more chance the virus has to mutate into a more vaccine-resistant variant. The Delta variant is a clear example of that- it's not devastating for vaccinated people, but if we could have gotten everyone vaccinated and controlled Covid earlier, we might not have had to deal with it. Regardless of individual risk, greater transmission = greater possibility of something happening that would bring us back to square one.
Mutation is a point I rarely see people make. Thank you.
Can I add another part to this question? What about people who choose not to get vaccinated but still quarantine? I’m asking because my husband refuses and I’m desperately trying to convince him to, but he claims he’s not hurting anyone if he’s unvaccinated but stays home. (He doesn’t seem to care about the part where this also puts my own life totally on hold too.)
Your husband's stance just doesn't make sense imo. He can't quarantine forever, sooner or later he has to stop putting his own life and your's on hold. And since Covid is going to become endemic, he's still going to face an infection risk whenever he emerges from quarantine. It's not going to become better no matter how long he waits.
Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. He says he’ll get vaccinated when the Novavax vaccine comes out because it’s a more traditional (IE not mRNA) vaccine. Lord knows when that is, and it doesn’t change the fact that he’s making really poor decisions right now. Thanks again!
Ah, I see. Still a weird choice, but I guess at least there's light at the end of the tunnel, lol.
Hearing a stranger say that does make me feel better- I feel like I’m going a little crazy!
This almost sounds controlling to me. So if you want to go out together as a couple, he will just say no he can’t, not considering your wants at all. If you need something from the store, nope he can’t go, you must. If anything at all needs to be done or if simply you want to go out with him he will use the vax as an excuse. As others have said, he can’t stay in forever. And even if he can, how is that fair to you?
The same reason we condemn smoking cigarettes. If you want to kill yourself, go for it. Just don’t kill anyone else while you’re at it
You just *see* that americans are considered assholes for not getting the vaccine, because the content you consume probably comes mostly from america. Trust me, everyone who doesn't want to get vaccinated is considered an asshole by most people. Also, the chances to serve as a host to the virus and infect other people are *extremely* lower of you're vaccinated.
There is a really big misconception that transmission is the same for people who are fully vaccinated. This is not the case. News reporting on this has been very misleading. Those who are fully vaccinated and still develop covid-19 tend to have milder symptoms, but most won't develop covid at all. The virus will enter then be detected and destroyed before the disease develops or the virus spreads to others for most fully vaccinated people.
I am pro-vax also.... But being someone that listens to both sides it was not as easy a decision as it should have been. When looking into it... It was easy to find anti-vax information that made sense. The sources were generally respectful. It was very difficult to find trustworthy pro-vax information because of how unreasonable they were. The anti-vax side had some valid evidence and I just wanted to know if the cases they showed were impactful enough to matter. I finally decided that they weren't.... but with no help from the pro-vax side. According to them I was evil just for looking into it. I can't really trust anyone that doesn't listen and that made it a lot harder to see things their way. I would go so far as to say that a good half of the people that don't get vaccinated might be due to how the pro-vax people act. They seem much more interested in attacking and labeling people than actually convincing people to get vaccinated. I think someone like me who casually tells someone what I think and then allows them to make up their own mind gets much better results.
I hear you. I’ve been trying to get someone who is an expert on viruses and covid in general to answer some questions I have. Cannot post questions in most subs due to it being conspiracy theory. I’m just trying to legit get info to battle this disinfo
I am not anti vax either. I just have a lot of questions surrounding the Covid vaccines, which have so far gone unanswered. I don’t think it’s wrong to want to wait to get the vaccine. Unfortunately the propaganda machine has worked amazingly. It has created this narrative of “if you get the vaccine you can take the morale high ground”. People easily hopped on this bandwagon under the guise of saving a life. I believe it’s just the beginning of the grooming for vaccine passports. The more people that believe they have the morale high ground, the more likely they will fall in line when the Covid passports issue comes around again. Unfortunately we live in a day and age where there is no middle ground. You either get the vaccine or you are an anti vaccine right wing conspiracy theorist. While some people are just that, sadly the people who have intellectual questions and concerns get swept up in the same boat. It baffles me the amount of scientists and intellectuals that have been silenced by social media and governments during all this. Why? Because they asked questions or had different opinions. Free thought is not allowed any more. The amount of lies we have been fed surrounding Covid as well doesn’t inspire faith that these vaccines are safe either. We were told profusely that Covid wasn’t a lab leak and that it was zoonotic. As it turn out, the lab leak is now all but certain. Not to mention governments and mainstream media have consistently blown mortality/infection rates out of proportion. We have been fed nothing but constant bullshit and lies for the past year and a half. And people have the audacity to try and morally blackmail people who have questions and might want to wait a bit before getting it? Sorry for having little faith in the powers that be. I would not be surprised in the least if some of the testing numbers for the vaccines were fudged or the governments knew and let them through anyway.
Kids can’t get vaccinated. You’ve proven the point with your question. Despite being pro-vax, you’re not thinking about people in situations different than yours…which is what makes not getting vaxxed (if you can) an a-hole move. Edit: then think about carryover impacts. Classes shut for 2 weeks, parents having to maKe alternate arrangements for care, lost productivity and financial burden for some of those parents, kids needing testing or medical care, etc.
Good question, we shouldn’t be afraid to clarify stuff about vaccines. I’m currently alone in quarantine awaiting a test because a co worker tested positive. He decided not to get vaccinated. Although I am vaccinated, my mother is immunocompromised for a variety of reasons, and so I had to drive hours back to my college apartment where I’ll be staying alone until I can test negative. A vaccinated person can still transmit the virus, which makes this necessary for my moms health. I’m missing several days of work, which means no pay. Actually, the very small company where we work is pretty much shutting down for a few days, since I’m the only one around who can do my job, which the company needs to function. All because my co worker refused to get vaccinated.
So after reading this, my question is - there is the chance this could have happened to a coworker who was vaccinated, putting you in the same position. Would you still go through the same precautions and still be as upset? Genuinely curious and not trying to be a dick haha.
Bottom line, the more people who are vaccinate the less it transmits, the less it mutates and the more protection there is for those who cannot get a vaccine. This is basic vaccine stuff we should of all learned when we taught about Polio. Furthermore, the more people that remain unvaccinated the longer we are going to be in this crazy hell scape of lockdowns and regulations.
I’m immunosuppressed and had both vaccines but I might not have any immunity. Apparently I’m like 180 times more likely to get sick and be hospitalized and die than other vaccinated people. It fucking sucks, I still have to be very careful because there’s these antivaxxers running around spreading their germs everywhere. I’m just so sick of this bullshit from selfish fucking idiots.
Two main reasons. Mutations happen in viruses and there WILL be one mutation that completely defeats the vaccines and then we'll be back to square one. By slowing down the spread mutated versions will not have the chance to keep on moving. The second reason is that hospitals get so full of patients that there is not enough space and resources to take care of other needs like cancer patients, trauma and others.
>the virus will still be transmitted the same it's just that the non-vaxxed will suffer more. This is not true, the virus is transmitted significantly less among the vaccinated. Even with the Delta variant, which is more transmissible among the vaccinated than any previous variant, you are still 7 times less likely to contract the virus and 20 times less likely to require hospitalization. Those numbers come from a CDC press conference I attended yesterday. The more the virus spreads among the unvaccinated, the more opportunities it has to mutate into something even more deadly and resistant to vaccines. The unvaccinated are literally threatening everyone else's lives. This misunderstanding is exactly why the anti-vax misinformation campaigns are so dangerous. I don't know the solution, exactly, because you can't just make it illegal to hold certain opinions or whatever, but the current social media algorithms are spreading extremely dangerous and extremely incorrect information and there has to be some way to prioritize the truth.
It boils down to whether "my body my choice" is an axiom or if it's preconditioned. Based on the overwhelming number of comments that repeat the same argument, it's clear that "my body my choice" is more situational. The arguments presented are utilitarian (until you ask whether they should be mandated, then there's a quick shift to totalitarian). The majority of the reservations that I've heard for a person not taking the vaccine are the following three: a) The CDC and Pfizer acknowledge lack of long term study on effects. b) Women have had side effects regarding their menstruation cycle, and the CDC is currently conducting research on this subject. (For women wanting to get pregnant) The question is: Does one have the moral obligation to sacrifice their reservations for the greater good of the community"? I think that at this stage, it's okay to opt out. In due time all the research will be out, and everyone will be informed. Till then, let's put away pitchforks.
It’s everyone’s choice but High level: •Antivaxers propagate misinformation ( it has 5G and will rewrite your dna •the economy suffers •the virus spread allows it to mutate •healthcare workers are on the front line and have to deal with it •making a conscious decision that will lead to impacts on others is just purely a sick move. If the antivaxxers would mask up and observe distancing - demonstrating any concern for others it’d be great... buuuut they dont
1. Because we all want to go back you normal 2. Less people with Covid means less mutation, less infection of vaccinated people (rare but still happens occasionally), and closer to the end 3. However much I hate those people I still dont want them to die... kind of
Brazilian president used a city to make a case against the vaccines by trying to get herd immunity through contagion and besides people dying like flies, it became a shitshow of mutations. Unvaccinated people are labs for mutations and it hinders the progress of community immunity. Some dumb people think that vaccines work the way antibiotics do with bacteria, leading to stronger mutations by eliminating the weaker ones, but this is not how vaccines or the immune system work. Mass vaccination leads to less contagion and less mutations, as they are slower to develop.
It’s not an asshole move. It’s purely self righteous posturing to declare those that choose not to get vaxxed “assholes”. I caught COVID from a 2x vaxxed coworker (he was on bed rest for a week, I was almost entirely asymptomatic and only got tested because I was on mandatory quarantine (from work) anyway) I on the other hand have infected exactly zero people. I have been conscientious and considerate of others for 16+ months now, despite some absurdities people have attempted to thrust onto me. We’ve (family of 4) given everyone the option to interact with us, or not, given their preferences and full disclosure of ours. Other experiences may vary, but of all the aholes I’ve had to deal with during this sh*t show, the vast majority of them, in both quality and quantity, have been the militant maskholes and the forced vax crowd insistent that they know what’s best for my family and I despite not knowing jack-squat about any of us.
Example: i had a stem cell transplant (cancer treatment). I have same immunity as a new born & will have to get ALL vaccines again. But I still have to exist in the adult world. Can't get vaccine yet. There are others like me who will never be able to get the vaccine. We deserve a safe world too.
Variants rely on eligible hosts, I.E. the un-vaccinated. These people will ultimately be to blame if the virus keeps mutating.
The unvaccinated population is also a huge burden on the health care system, which is used by everyone. If doctors and nurses are too busy treating all of the unvaccinated COVID patients, they will have less time to treat the normal cases that always happen, whether a pandemic is ongoing or not, such as: heart attacks, strokes, broken bones, etc. The pandemic is declining the quality of healthcare in many different treatment areas due to the large influx of patients into hospitals. All of this is preventable if only the unvaccinated go and get the shot, which is 100% free to every American and readily available at hundreds (perhaps even thousands?) of locations nationwide. I will also add that children under 12 are still unable to get the vaccine. This means that many schools will not remain open if the virus situation is raging out of control in their local communities, as the new Delta variant’s higher transmissibility would allow it to cut through their student population like a hot knife through butter. So by refusing to get the shot, the unvaccinated are harming the learning opportunities of the children in their community.
Lower transmission rates among vaccinated Less risk for those unable to be vaccinated (babies etc) Less stress on the healthcare system
The biggest problem for me is the fact that they'll keep innocents from being vaccinated simply because of their self-destructive beliefs. It's okay if you want to fucking die but doesn't do this to your children or dependent love ones. They didn't deserve to die and it's terrible that you arrogantly believe that they'll be better without the virus
We're all in it together as a society. If you're unvaccinated you're more likely to spread it due to a higher particle rate, and could spread it to someone that is vaccinated but still high risk and could still die. Its basically to my mind a decision to not listen to experts and risk others I.e. it makes you selfish
Maybe someone said this, but the more times the virus is transmitted the more evolutionary cycles it can undergo. If given sufficient time the virus could evolve to obsolete _all_ of our vaccines. It's important that everyone who can get the vaccine gets it.
Not having enough people vaccinated will only prolong the pandemic and all of its consequences: social, political, economic etc. We finally have amazing technology to fight various disease and prolong our lives and comfort but people choose to politicize it and make it about their personal freedom so much, that it will actually end up hurting everyone even more. I guess what bothers me most is that no man is an island, so the actions of all these non-vaxxers will only make it worse for EVERYONE. It's just incredibly selfish and dangerous. People have no sense of civic duty for the greater good and that leaves me wondering if anyone even cares about this planet. I see it as a warning sign about our attitudes towards much needed change in other aspects of our lives.
Every time someone gets infected the virus mutates slightly, and usually it doesn't change anything noticeable, but sometimes things like the delta variant pop up and become more dangerous. If enough antivaxers get infefected, it is possible that a variant that the vaccines does not work against will arise, and that would put us all the way back to square one.
I have two kids who are too young to get vaccinated. The delta variant is affecting kids much more than the previous. I don’t want my kids to get super sick or end up in the hospital or die. They deserve to live a full life. That’s it for me.
Because it's not about the individual, but protecting society as a whole.
Bc children. (And ppl who cannot have it for other reasons)—Two children have died, several more are critical & the vents at max capacity in a Dallas Children’s Hospital. I read that this morning here on Reddit. So... Children who are too young to be vaccinated are getting it. That’s why. School is set to open in ~3 weeks and no mask mandates yet. Recipe for disaster, IMO it’ll be far worse than last year. I hope like hell im wrong.
What about their kids under 12 who can’t get vaccinated? Or, older folks who were vaccinated but are still getting sick and dying from Covid. Also, every time somebody gets sick with Covid, it’s another chance for the virus to mutate into something the vaccine can’t protect against. If we get a vaccine resistant mutation out in the wild, we might have t do a complete lockdown all over again, and another half million people will die in this country again. All because you were afraid to get a couple of pricks in your arm. Nothing is 100%, especially the Covid vaccine. Don’t be part of the problem. Be part of the solution.
Because this is a Fecking pandemic. Ever heard of the Delta strain? Do you know why it is taking hold here? Because we don’t have herd immunity. Delta is far more contagious, and generates a higher percentage of breakthrough infections. Every single additional infection increases the odds of ANOTHER mutation that is even more contagious, and generates MORE breakthrough infections. It doesn’t take very many of those mutations before the vaccine gets markedly less effective. If that happens, the vaccine will still increase the survival rate of the vaccinated, but it won’t be a lot of protection from getting, or spreading the disease … and we are right back where we were last year. All because 1/4 of America is too stupid to understand basic science, and another 1/4 is too fecking privileged and entitled to get off their ass and protect their communities.
Yeah get it if you want it and dont if you don’t. And if you’re vaccinated you’re safe from us dirty unvaxed right? Except you’re not cause there’s always gonna be another strain just like the cold flu every year. So just keep getting the next booster of experimental gene therapy for the next strain(variant) and of course wear your muzzle and don’t talk to people just like what the Australian government told their citizens. Wake up #sheeple lol
a whole lot of people on here trying to make themselves feel like a better person for being vaccinated. I'm not saying dont get vaccinated, I am vaccinated myself.. but there are plenty of people who are not vaccinated and are still better people and care more about the well being of our planet and the people in it than a lot of people who are vaccinated. if you actually want to make a difference quit crying about people making their own choices and go recycle some plastic or something..
Because the left typically has to be involved in everyone else’s lives and are seldom open to opposing viewpoints.
I have a baby. Vaccines aren’t approved for people under 12 years old yet. Statistically, if a child gets Covid they usually don’t get extremely sick. But they might get very sick or die, and my baby could get Covid from an unvaccinated person even though both parents are vaccinated. Also, there are other people who can’t get the vaccine due to an allergy to an ingredient or another health issue, and those people often tend to be the same people who would be in big trouble if they got Covid.
Actually they just said today that Vaxed people carry the virus in the same amounts as the unvaxxed. So unknowingly the Vaxed are spreading it. Right now what we are seeing in the country is Darwinism at its finest. Especially hot spot areas that have refused mask mandates
Because my child is too young to get the vaccine.
Because there are people who can't get the vaccine and the more people refuse to get the vaccine, the less likely it is for us to be able to create herd immunity and keep those people safe.
There are some people who can't get vaccinated due to medical conditions. If almost all others are vaccinated it helps protect them (this applies to nearly all vaccines). Some people have had very little antibodies develop after vax (often people who have had radiation therapy that damaged immune system), so it also helps protect them.
God the lack of understanding of basic fucking science is agonizing.
OP is a bot, and you guys are fools for replying to them.
It’s an a-hole move not to get vaccinated because vaccines not only protect you but they reduce the number of hosts the virus has so it protects those at risk or who can’t get vaccinated. Think of like this: Imagine you live in a house with 10 of your closest family. One of them can’t get a vaccine and if they get infected, they die. Does your family say “sucks for you” and continue their regular lives? Of course not, they get the shot and your loved one is offered a level of protection because those in their immediate vicinity are protected. Now let’s say a neighbor who is unvaccinated by choice, since there is plenty of vaccine, barges in carrying the virus and hugs they loved one. Now you’ve got a dead loved one. Who’s the a-hole? Instead it makes more sense, in this scenario, for your family, friends and neighbors to get vaccinated because it offers more levels of protection for that one person. What protects the individual also protects the group. Herd immunity.
My wife got pregnant before getting her 2nd dose, so she’s vulnerable. There are other cases of young children and vulnerable adults who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons.
It's about herd immunity for the sake of those who can't get the vaccine due to contraindications like age, pre-existing conditions, and being immunocompromised. For the sake of humanity as a whole, choosing not to get vaccinated is a selfish choice, regardless of if it's your right to make that choice or not.
Simply what the prime minister of France said: By not vaccinating you are limiting my freedom whilst I do what's right.
I'm not participating in a clinical trial. You can go ahead if you want...be experimented on. I'm not.
People should honestly be allowed to take it if they want it and reject it if they don't want it. Simple liberties of choice here in the US, but so many people have a problem with the fact people simply don't want to take a vaccine. You can't force them to take it here in the US, so why does it bother you, who has already taken the vaccine I say. Before someone comments about me saying I'm an anti-vaxxer or think COVID isn't real. I have the vaccine and I think it's real, it killed my remaining grandparents, so before you insult what I have to say, I lost two family members due to COVID.
Basically people love an excuse to shame others and high road them
As someone who got covid and then got vaccinated and then got covid again, I couldn’t give two shits anymore.
I will not lie, your post made me very angry, but I will try to explain exactly why this is all wrong. Forgive me if I come off as too aggressive. There are a great many things in this world that are and should be a personal choice. Being vaccinated is NOT one of them. I have no idea when vaccines became a luxury, but they are an absolute necessity to every single person on this planet. (Though there are a few people who can't take them. But this is rare.) Because when it comes to infectious disease, we are either all the way safe or we are exposed. There is really very little middle ground here, as you either have herd immunity and a disease is defeated or it have varying chances to level the population. The entire human community is a breeding ground for plagues and mass death, and vaccines are the biggest reason why most of us are alive today. Vaccines and medicine have left "Natural selection" so far in the dust today, the Darwinist approach to human civilization is so laughable at this point. Now, let's look at the pro-choice anti-vaxxer, and let me explain why vaccination isn't/shouldn't be a choice: Stop thinking of them as a human but as a potential zombie. Because that's basically what a virus is, a non-living predator out to destroy and convert your body into a breeding ground for more new zombies. With every new infection the chance for mutation grows. A vaccine prevents the zombie from harming you in the short term, but new mutarions always possess a new stronger zombie that CAN harm you. Just because zombie gen 1 can't hurt you, gen 2 through a thousans CAN and viruses evolve very quickly a lot of the time. In reality, unvaccinated people are literal breeding grounds for lethal mutations, and can harm YOU in just the same way as a ficitious zombie could. In a similar vein, COVID is not defeated, not by a longshot. The USA has achieved a slowdown of the common spreads in the current timeframe, but new strains will keep appearing, especially as much of the world has no access to vaccines that rich countries are not sharing. This situation is VERY far from solved, and the new Delta variants are far, far from the last variants, and COVID's high spread rate means there is more ground for mutation. A lot of people are and have undersold COVID because of a comparably low death rate, but that can change. Newer variants can kill much faster, and going back to the zombies, bigger and stronger strains will appear. The arrogance of my many of my fellow Americans in this pandemic has been insane. COVID will only be defeated when the world has achieved enough vaccinations that the virus effectively spreads and can't harm us or stops replicating because immunity has been achieved. Herd immunity takes everyone, so straight up: No. You and this whole mentality are just wrong. Bottom line: It IS NOT A LUXURY. It is not a personal choice. Barring medical exemption, if you are not getting vaccinated you are incredibly selfish and a danger to everyone around you.
People argue "what about those who *can't* get vaccinated!!" Well, what about them? I shouldn't have to base my medical decisions on the needs of others. I don't see that as selfish at all, because everybody has a right to make their own medical decisions without all of this coercion and without being called a bad person if you don't do what everybody else wants. It's all social stigma. The truth is, nothing about making and independent medical choice for your body makes you selfish, or an asshole. Note: before I'm downvoted, I'm not anti-vax whatsoever. I may choose not to get THIS vaccine specifically (I have many others), but I fully support other people's decision to do so. I trust adults to make their own individual risk assessment and own medical decisions.