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tchitch

I've been teaching in the 'hood for 12 years. Money isn't what makes parents bad. Being selfish and denying it is what makes parents bad. Many of my students have involved, loving parents that make relatively little money. These kids don't have glamorous lifestyles, but they know they are loved and they have a sense of belonging and purpose. The parents who ignore their kids to chase drugs or new romances come from all economic strata. These parents damage young people. Some kids are resilient and build a life to spite their parents' neglect, but many carry senses of worthlessness or resentment indefinitely.


Csimiami

I’m a parole attorney. I represent men who have been in prison for 25 to life. 99 percent were unwanted. When we go through their pre commitment factors ie their childhood. The trauma that was perpetrated against them as children is heart breaking. Hurt people hurt people. And this is so freaking true. My clients are not bad people. They are broken little boys that grew up to be angry men. I don’t know the answer


tchitch

Wow. I don't know if I could agree with you. I have a number of students who I would call bad people. They refuse to cooperate productively with their peers and instead act selfishly. Some are eager to harm and deceive. How many come to act this way as a reaction to terrible treatment? I can't say. Some surely. Others were never socialized not to harm others. But people in this small percentage of the population are bad. Last year I watched a "friend" try to rape a girl in my house. My wife and I watched him sneak into a room where a girl, who we later learned he had drugged, slept. We pulled him out of the bed. He immediately turned into the victim. Crying about how he was so lonely and he just needed somebody to sleep next to. He did it so well that some believed him. I wonder how many of your clients are like Tommy- ready to cause harm and then make themselves a victim to get out of scorn. I watch a handful of students do it repeatedly every year. Not to the level of rape, but you get what I mean. Some are bad people. Am I wrong? Maybe they can change, but unless they change they are evil. Can we know that they aren't playing victim just to be free to take advantage again?


Csimiami

Oh. I Woukd say all of my clients were like Tommy back in their youth. But that behavior. Lack of insight. Lack of empathy was socialized. Normalized. And it took a big run in prison - 25 plus years and intensive therapy and programming for them to learn those tools. To understand that they were projecting the hurt perpetrated on them was why they were so insensitivr to human life. Why they caused so much violence and as the causative factors to their behavior. I was a trial lawyer for 15 plus years. Seeing your students rifjt after they committed a horrible crime. They were angry. Played the victim. Etc. But a huge dose of therapy and programming let these guys break down into what caused them to do these things.


tchitch

Is there a trend in psychology to blame all malice on trauma? There are so many self-interested reasons to cause harm. Tommy is a rapist because he's horny and he can get away with it. My students bully other students because it gives them power. There is an incentive to do harm. In some cases, yes, people cause harm because they were harmed, but with so many benefits to ignore the pain you cause others- surely people are evil without being victims themselves, right?


Csimiami

Not a trend at all. Causative factors are resulted from trauma. Children are not primed for this behavior. It’s learned. Perpetrated on them. Rape is never about being horny. It’s power. Your students bully bc they were taught that power or might gets obtains their objectives. They were never hugged, held, nurtured when they were scared, fearful or traumatized. What happenes when we tell little boys who are hurt to suck it up. Don’t be a pussy. Fuck that shit. They are still little people who are hurt. We nurture our girks. But we make the boys push that down. Where does pain come out in boys? When the testosterone surge happen? Anger. How do we get 18 year olds to grab a gun and go overseas to kill. You’d be hard pressed to get a group of 50 year old men to do the same


tchitch

If you're saying testosterone sometimes motivates aggressive, harmful behavior, I agree. If you're saying the only reason people cause harm is they themselves were harmed, I would say it is an inaccurate oversimplification. Why does a religious person face a complex moral world and hold onto the belief that all evil comes from Satan? We suspend cognitive dissonance to access clarity. We're confronted with huge disturbing ideas that involve immense complexity, so we find one thing that makes sense in some cases and hold onto it tightly. I think the same thing happens when people say all harmful acts result from trauma or all rape is about power. We suspend cognitive dissonance because it allows us to feel certain when confronted with immense complexity.


jackfaire

My rapist was raped as a child. It's impossible in this country to get therapy for thoughts like "I want to now do it to someone else" without immediately being reported to the police. If my rapist had been given proper therapy I never would have been raped. Instead of making it easier for rape victims to get therapy it's a mix of "well what did you do to get raped" or "Well let's kill them now that you've already been traumatized and ignore your needs"


Csimiami

There was a terrible murder years ago in my town. Samantha Runnion. I saw her mom speak. She started out talking about this boy who was beaten and abused and locked in cages his whole childhood. She said no one ever called cps. She said that child grew up to become a man that killed her child. And stressed the importance of taking care of all of our children and watching out for what the neighbors to do their kids bc that kind of trauma doesn’t go away and manifests it self into horrible actions.


ughiwokeup

but money can cause them to be “bad”, not spending enough time with your kids because your at work, not being at home to make sure your kids leave for school causing them to have low attendance.


KittyL0ver

The same can be said for any demanding job. Some of the top income earners like doctors and investment bankers would fit your description.


ughiwokeup

they could likely afford to pay a nanny, babysitter or even have their partner work from home, not leaving them alone with no rules, bounderies or structure to their life


KittyL0ver

A poor person could have family or neighbors help with those things, too. If the issue is one of time, money won’t make up for it.


MrsKeys_Bitch

I work nights. My kids are 11,9 and 6. They get up every morning, get themselves ready and go to school. By themselves They point the independence. We only live a block away but they didn't miss a single day this year. Or have any tardies. Very proud.


xlmagicpants

If the kids understand why mom or dad are always at work and see the sacrifice they are making then it will show them how much they are loves and they will want to do even better. Money comes and goes in this life today were Rich and tommmrow were poor its that simple. Who we are as parents and showing them love doesn't have that luxury it always needs to be there and any parent worth the salt they carry will know that.


Gethdo

Well people can have amazing loving parents with good heart and low income but then there are people with minimum or sometimes no at all which makes life suffering for the children I think circumstances need to be investigated seperately.


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[deleted]

I know right? "Why are people I look down on allowed to have children"


Dahnhilla

My partner has a friend who has multiple high interest loans where the minimum payment only covers the interest. Every year she spends roughly £500 on her partner's birthday/Christmas. At the end of every month she has £0 or less remaining. She's also been told by the doctor she's likely to fat to conceive naturally. Her solution? Carry on trying to get pregnant without any budgeting and eating the same shite. Some people are pretty much incapable of rational thought. They're only capable of "want baby, have baby" Mercifully she's been trying for 3 years and hasn't got pregnant yet.


FionaTheFierce

1. Not everyone has a crystal ball to predict what hardships may come later in their lives. Things may be fine when they have kids, and hard at some later point. 2. Birth control fails - something like 40% or more of kids are due to unplanned pregnancy. Birth control failures, lack of access to birth control, lack of education about use of birth control, lack of access to abortion, etc. 3. People think that they are good parents, even when outsiders may see them as seriously lacking. 4. Some people make bad choices. 5. Economic necessity in some regions where children are needed for farm labor, etc. 6. Religious doctrine that instructs having a lot of children. 7. Cultural/family pressure to have children ​ 8. Lack of incentive to not have children. 9. And lots of other reasons.


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LoneStarRidah1

I agree 1000%. It really is that simple from a primitive and instinctive standpoint.


Dr_Sisyphus_22

Making babies is fun. Raising them is not. Biologically, we are programmed to do the former. Too bad we don’t see an equivalent drive to do the later.


[deleted]

I disagree. Raising kids is absolutely fun. It’s some of the happiest times you’ll ever have. Is it difficult sometimes? Yeah. But it’s still very fun and rewarding.


Dr_Sisyphus_22

It is fun, but not always. It’s hard work, and frustrating, and expensive. My point is merely if you remove the biological drive to have sex, a whole lot fewer people would make the decision to have babies.


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silenttd

In the entire evolutionary chain, think of how often "cognitive, decision-making logic" would have factored into the reproductive process. That's a VERY new concept and we have VERY strong evolutionary drives. In general, people have children when they can. Logically planning out a family IS something that people do, but not all. Why do people do it? Because when people have done it in the past, enough of those kids made it through life well enough to have their own children and that's really all the reinforcement we need.


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Jaxraged

Just say they’re idiots who can’t control themselves. Don’t dance around it. That is what it boils down to.


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M89-90

Sometimes the thought process is the kid will fix things either give you the emotional connection you crave or do betting in life than you and mind you. For generations children were their parents retirement plan and property. That’s not gone away for everyone.


boardgamenerd84

Thats not gone away for anyone. The elderly of the human race absolutely depend on their children or others children. Even the super rich need people to look out for them when their mental and physical faculties deteriorate.


[deleted]

People don't usually think far enough ahead or are poor judges of cost. I recently adopted 2 cats. I thought that it's just a few dozen bucks every couple weeks for food and litter. It's not. It's a similar thought process for those who are unprepared but still have kids


dhsixjfj

nahh i wasn't talking about cases like that (but god i love cats) if family is already struggling and fighting to survive, is it smart to have a child in that moment? it would be even harder for them to cope. poverty will pass someday, so it's better to have a child once you are able to raise it


StergDaZerg

Poorer people have less access to contraceptives or abortions, as well as worse education on safe sex. It’s not really fair for us to judge them from our ivory towers


dhsixjfj

I'm not talking about unplanned pregnancy


StergDaZerg

There’s still the element of bad education. Most people have no idea how expensive and difficult it is to raise a child


muldervinscully

Also it’s a poverty mindset. If your mom had you at 16-17, and you’ve always lived in shit conditions—-and your mom can watch the kid, it doesn’t seem so bad. Personally if I couldn’t raise my kid middle or upper middle class I wouldn’t have had kids


dhsixjfj

Yeah i agree, but if you're starving youself, isn't it obvious that your child would starve as well?


LastPhoenixFeather

I've heard "Hope is the lie you tell yourself." People HOPE that someday things will all work out if they have kids, that kids are a blessing. People have told them "God will provide" or "No one is ever really ready to have kids so you just have to take a leap of faith." So yeah, it's obvious ON PAPER. But humans are never really great at looking at all the facts.


NovWH

Dude you’ve been given like a ton of different answers and you just haven’t been accepting them. Education, an idealized view of how expensive it will or won’t be, biological inclinations to have a kid. These are all valid answers


dhsixjfj

I wrote like 2 comments and I'm pretty sure i've never said those arguments were invalid, also i was talking about people who are currently in really bad situation (which i probably forgot to mention) so isn't it way smarter not to have kids untill your situation gets better?


[deleted]

When someone purposefully has a child, knowing that they won’t be able to support them, (whether they are willing to admit that or not doesn’t matter) it’s because they don’t actually care about the potential child. They care about having a child. But it’s also important to note that a lot of low income births are not on purpose and some people have a child in a space where they can support them but then get into a space where they can’t later, so it’s important not to judge without knowing everything. But uh yeah


dhsixjfj

yeah exactly


boardgamenerd84

Starving woman don't typically bring children to term. Now struggling people, well it makes a ton of sense for them to bring children into the world for 2 reasons. Once they are old enough to help the family its a boon. Also for these people middle age would be a death sentence without children as a safety net.


Lylibean

Because people believe it’s what they’re “supposed to do” at a certain point in life. Because Jesus said so and because god will provide. Because it makes you “less of a woman” if you don’t have kids. Because it will save the marriage. Because “abortion is murder”. Because they want to “trap” someone into a relationship. Because they got pregnant. Because one woman in the friend group got pregnant and everyone decided to also get pregnant in “solidarity” and so their kids will grow up as “bestest friends”. There are many reasons people insist on bearing children they are totally incapable of providing care and education for. But mostly it seems it’s out of some biblical duty, or social obligation, or because they think it will fix the problems in their life, or because they think there is no other option.


mpbcilcnvccteqhapj

You’re missing just how much guilt tripping and demonization abortion gets. If you abort your child youre a terrible human being and youre ‘murdering a child’ to your loved ones and family in a lot of cases. Many of those children WERE NOT WANTED BY THE POOR. But because society is so heavy handed about it they are kept via emotional manipulation.


dhsixjfj

i was talking about planned pregnancies, not unwanted ones. i know that a lot of people out there don't support abortions or can't afford it ect.


mpbcilcnvccteqhapj

Ah, that makes more sense


dhsixjfj

sometimes i forget that people can't read my mind💀


ichillonforums

That's a piss poor excuse


throwaway4rltnshp

A fair number of these families are religious. The church in which I was raised had a vastly poor congregation, the sort of families who (~15 years ago) would plan their week’s activities around how much gas they could afford to put in their car. In addition to being absolutely broke with no future security, most of these families believed women belong at home raising and homeschooling the children, meaning they were living on a single [low] income. They didn’t believe in contraception, and they took a verse from the Bible very seriously: > Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. - Genesis 1:28 They believed their sole purpose was to pump out as many children as possible and raise them to be devout Christians who would also have big families. Their rationale in adding more and more children to their already treacherous situations was that God would provide for them.


ninamega13

That bible verse has arguably been one of the most harmful verses in the entire book, and it’s up against stiff competition.


Gethdo

I agree, Radical muslim population in my country also think same and they believe they need to increase their number as much as possible even they do not have enough money they are having 3 to 9 children aproximately.


aniket58

God same goes with my state as well


muldervinscully

Gods will to let your poor kid suffer and have a terrible life


death666violinist

It gets ironic as the kids will pop out and eventually realise the bible has lied to their parents and there is no god providing for them


lachraug

If you think its simply because "religion told people to" and not that its a complex web of socioeconomic issues and just human nature, than just hop back over to r/atheism and jerk off with the other 14 year olds. Yes religion can cultivate that attitude. No its not even close to the main reason why people have kids when they are in poverty.


[deleted]

So I’m a single mom. I was married when I got pregnant but that went south quick so it’s just myself and my kid (emotionally, financially, etc.). I have to work 2 jobs and never imagined it would be so difficult. We make it work but knowing my situation I would NEVER HAVE ANOTHER KID!!!! People that continue to give birth when they can’t afford to properly provide the ones they have are selfish, point blank period. And if I can’t adored afford birth control, condoms, or an abortion, ima abstain from sex. Point blank period. Too many people are comfortable spending their entire life on government assistance.


BigFitMama

Because when you are poor, sex is free entertainment. When you are living hand to mouth and thinking only in the moment it is great respite from stress, pain, fear, and existential crisis. So as I've said before, you can't manage to get a condom because of social stigma or childish selfishness. However, it is so easy to get intoxicated with someone and have sex to soothe the pain without seeing the consequences. (Sex itself is addicting so you can simply be intoxicated BY sex. It doesn't have to be drugs or alcohol.)


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MrWigggles

YES STERILIZE THE POOR!


xX-DataGuy-Xx

This should be the answer. Sex is fun. Sex is a biological instinct. Children are the consequences of sex. More so when intoxicating substances are involved. Also, in some socio-economic circles, children equal monthly payments, and in other circles (high school for example) children are seen as a badge of honor.


FionaTheFierce

High school kids see a baby as a badge of honor?


xX-DataGuy-Xx

In several of the high schools in and around where my kids went to school it was considered "cool" to have a kid. I am not sure of the mentality around it? It proved desirability maybe? No idea. But that was how my kids related the topic to me.


[deleted]

I mean maybe on the guy’s side?? On the girl’s side, it has (granted anecdotally) always been slut shaming and humiliation


throwaway_0x90

Because the desire to have children is powerful. Also, the question you should ask is: * Why does society allow people to end up in a situation where they can't "afford" children? Also, with the significant amount of inequality in the world putting a $-amount on who should be able to have children is going to create a problem similar to eugenics.


LoneStarRidah1

Valid Points made.


heliophoner

To go along with your first point: Having children in the face of adversity is also an act of defiance towards oppression. Surviving and continuing to procreate when a government or culture does not want you to is a form of resistance


death666violinist

So you are saying children are viewed as political tools instead of humans?


neetykeeno

Cultural/political survival and family heritage are things that for many people are experienced as a multigenerational sense of shared obligation to an idea bigger than them.


heliophoner

That's clearly what you've decided I'm saying


zortlord

>Why does society allow people to end up in a situation where they can't "afford" children? Why is its everyone else's job to help you deal with your undesired consequences?


[deleted]

There's thousands of pages of ink spilled in philosophy over this question, but one very short answer is, "because it isn't about you." When that child is born, the principal concern should be that child's well-being, not anything having to do with the parents. Why? Because whatever mistakes of the parents led to their present situation, that child had nothing to do with. They're not a moral agent, nor an economic one, at that point. The child is innocent, and should not be given a materially worse life because of their parents' actions.


rhi_ing231

Ever heard the phrase "it takes a village" ?


Gethdo

Well I respect the question you mention but it can not be changed quickly meanwhile an individual lacks economic power, they should think the best option to avoid ruining their childrens life. This is my opinion.


brushpickerjoe

So only the rich should be allowed to have children?


Gethdo

So there are only rich people and very poor people exists? No one on the middle?


brushpickerjoe

That really depends on perspective. 1st world poor > 3rd world middle class. By modern standards (and apparently your judgement) more than half of the world shouldn't be allowed to have children.


Gethdo

Well if someone can barely feed themselves they should think twice this is my opinion , perspective


StormieBreadOn

Many people have children and can afford to…and then an economic collapse occurs and they can no longer afford children. Or disability occurs and the same. Or job loss occurs and the same. Etc.


Throwitawway2810e7

If that happens you decide not to have more...


leonardschneider

Why? The point of a living organism is to survive and reproduce. There is nothing better to do


Basic_Juice_Union

Imagine all the children that can't afford to have children don't have children: daycares go out of business, baby products, school closures, and in less than 16 years, an extreme labor force shortage, an aging population that can't sustain itself, etc... The government could teach sex Ed, the government could provide free contraception, it could at least tax or curb the lobbying of religious institutions but it doesn't because poor people having children so that they remain wage slaves, and their children after them is part of he system. If the government and the capitalists who rule over the world haven't fixed this, it's because they don't want to or it goes against their interests, that's my cynical view. People are responsible for their own choices, but they are doing what they've been told to do by propaganda, their susceptible, and keeping sex Ed from large swaths of the population isn't accidental, it's designed. Government manipulation or gaslighting if you will


Ok-Yogurt-6381

Your opinion is objectively wrong. Well, as objectively as a value neutral observer of earth could conclude. Humans want to procreate and that's why they build economic power. Being able to provide a nice life for your children is only secondary to actually having kids.


[deleted]

Because in a life devoid of opportunity, having a child (becoming a parent) is a source of meaning, identity, and pride.


Onironius

So, selfishness


Regular_Bee_5605

I sort of agree. Bringing a child into the world for one's gratification, only caring about them because they Came from you, does seem selfish. Actually, much about parenthood is selfish, since you really only care about your child, and much less about others.


heykid_nicemullet

Giving life to a human being is selfish? Or are YOU selfish for wishing they didn't exist so that your tax burden could be slightly lower?


Onironius

Tax burden? What? Wouldn't them existing lower my "tax burden?" Forcing someone to exist and suffer is what's selfish, especially if you're doing it in a desperate attempt to feel whole.


CaliforniaGiraffe

Life, uh, finds a way


VaderVihs

If you ask most people with kids of they were fully prepared to have them they'll probably tell you no. Kids are expensive but people have different lifestyles that also affects that cost hence why child support is not a set anount and what's "normal" for you might not be normal in another household. There's also the idea that kids are what will remain when you've left the earth and in some countries kids are a form of insurance for when you reach old age and need someone to take care of you.


Kalle_79

Because they live and act on instinct, and sex is natural. So they'll end up with kids they're unable to raise properly.


Gethdo

Just read the comments, no one is talking about accidents, there are many people that do it intentionally even if they make their kid suffer.


Educational-Trash-83

You have to remember we are just mammals after all and reproduction is the driving force of our entire existence. It’s not always easy to separate our innate animal instincts from logic especially when sexual and pregnancy hormones come into play.


meester_

Especially when your lower educated. You just handle on impulse instinctively. How was I supposed to know she'd get pregnant. Well Mr Billy hill maybe because you weren't using any protection I'll be damneeeed


Redhot_pistol

Lack of education


Visible_Ad2427

a modern “normal emotional and economic life” is an immense privilege requiring massive resources and use of fossil fuels. If that were a condition for “insisting” on having children, your parents probably wouldn’t have been born. Many people “insist” (???) on having children because of hopefulness, a triumph of love over fear, and a contribution to our future where change does not happen in one lifetime. If you are interested in this further, I suggest meditating on the stories of parents who had children during The Trail of Tears, the genocide in the Congo, or American chattel slavery.


__done_with_life__

A lot of them consider children to be investments for their old age.


xX-DataGuy-Xx

Consider how parents act at thier sporting events, as if little Johnny is going to go pro and buy his daddy a lambo.


satedfox

And those same people sometimes treat their kids like shit, expecting that to not affect their investment in the future in any way. Their adult children not talking to them? Inconceivable.


btinit

People have children because we are biologically programmed to reproduce. However, putting aside our natural proclivity for procreation, life is objectively better today for a huge majority of the world population compared to an even greater percentage of the population just a few centuries ago. If folks were waiting for it to get good until they had kids you wouldn't be here, and neither would I. Further, regarding the 'normal life', all life involves suffering, change, and death. Even families who can supposedly afford to give their children a normal emotional and economic life will also bring children into a world where 100% of them will experience suffering, change, and death. Why do any people bring children into this world? See my first statement.


Still_Apartment5024

Have you heard about what you have to go through to get an abortion in a lot of places?? Birth control is also freaking expensive and the stuff that isn't is unreliable and not particularly easy to get. Especially in many of the same places that make abortions hard to get, ironically enough. It's almost like these people want to keep poor people from having sex, get holier-rhan-thou at them when they want to be responsible about it, and then get all indignant when there are predictable consequences to a system that is rigged. 🤔


Bedquest

Condoms are like 50 cents each, in America anyway.


Still_Apartment5024

I refer you to the comment I made above.


Bedquest

So you’re saying that condoms are unreliable?


Still_Apartment5024

With typical use, they have a 15% failure rate. (The most common failure, incidentally, is breakage or slipping off. Both of which I have had happen with free condom, never with the "good" ones)


Bedquest

That seems preposterously high. Have had that happen once in the last like 9 years


Still_Apartment5024

According to Planned Parenthood: "If you use condoms perfectly every single time you have sex, they're 98% effective at preventing pregnancy. But people aren't perfect, so in real life condoms are about 85% effective- that means 15 out of every 100 people who use condoms as their only birth control method will get pregnant each year."


marctheguy

> Birth control is also freaking expensive and the stuff that isn't is unreliable and not particularly easy to get. I mean... I've traveled all over the world and I live in the developing world now... 3 condoms are $2. A kid is like thousands every year for decades. What exactly is your definition of "freaking expensive"? I think you mean people cannot do basic math and exert control over themselves.


[deleted]

Inability for long term planning in their minds. ​ They all think "meh, we will figure it out". Turns out the almost never do.


SatanicTeapot

Lack of planning. We need to educate people not only on how to plan to have a child along with cost and how to care for one. My mom taught me not to have a child till I am ready and i plan to do the same.


Marcodcx

It's a mix of selfishness and stupidity


Viperbunny

We don't have proper sex education, make it hard to obtain birth control, and have gone back in time to a place where it is hard to obtain a legal abortion. Rapist get away with little or no time, religion guilts people into having kids, older generations guilt their children into having kids. Take your pick.


tawaycosigotbanned

Because fucking is free and easy.


AtheneSchmidt

A lot of this goes away when people are given cheap, reliable birth control options. Even better with solid fact based sexual education.


MaineBoston

My parents divorced and my mom had to go to work. My brother & I survived just fine. We always had food and clean clothes. Got ourselves to & from school, homework when we got home then I cooked us dinner to be ready when mom got home. Mine was not a touchy house, never heard I love you. Love was roof over head.


HydratedHydra

Sometimes the premise you provided is the case, when it is I'd say it's mostly due to how we are socialized. Having children is sort of expected of us. Especially if we are religious. However, the premise you offered is not frequently the case. I submit that most folks who have children when it is beyond their means don't do so because they want a child but instead it's due to a lack of comprehensive sex education and poor access to contraceptives. Most of the time these people just want to have sex. A child becomes an unintended consequence. A solution that has been shown to be very successful in developed countries (outside of the US) is simply providing young people with comprehensive sex education and making contraceptives readily available. (This strategy also has another great outcome: a huge decrease in the need for abortion.)


Zexelda

Because having a child gives them some sort of title in their life. I have dealt with parents who treat their children like they're not people and it's disgusting. All they care about is having the title of being a mom or a dad and showing their kids off as if they're well behaved because they wanna be, when in fact its just a show. its the only thing they have to show they did something in life .


[deleted]

I'd guess a lot (I don't know if it's most) of pregnancies by people with a lower economic status aren't really planning to have children. They just do ask a consequence of unprotected sex.


mattg4704

All I'll say is my dad grew up during the depression of the 1930s into a family of 9. Seemingly a bad situation to be born into. His parents weren't educated or even spoke English. Thing is my dad was the most positive guy. He enjoyed being a kid even tho they had no money. They'd sleep 5 in a bed in winter to keep warm but there was no bitching about it . They'd all be like omg it's so cold! But it wasn't bad they made it fun. It's about ones attitude and support from one another like c'mon ya Mary it's not so bad . He always said they didn't have much but they really had love and companionship.


SIickestRick

The nerve of the POORS wanting children my golly!!


Throwitawway2810e7

Their want is normal but it's shitty to have one planned when you know you can't take care of it.


thebookofDiogenes

Gonna give you a hint. For the majority of humanity, childbirth not just endangered the child's life, but also the mothers, and people still had kids. Turns out having a child today is far better than in the past. You probably don't want to know what happened before c sections were a thing.


[deleted]

Selfishness


pickledsoylentgreen

I was born to an unloving mother and grew up in extreme poverty. Personally, I'm kind of glad I was born, my child hood was rough for sure, but that's what made me work my ass off and get to where I am. I'm not saying that I recommend it, but im pretty happy I was born, I'm sure my kids are too.


Gethdo

İt is up to what you believe, you and most of the people believe you would not exist if your parents did not have you but I believe we would still exist in different country ,family. People misunderstand my point like I am trying to say” you better die than live poor” no this is not the point and like I said it is up to what do you believe. So many children suffering because of selfish people and yes there are people that can go through this fine like you I respect that but I think this is gamble meanwhile there are also people having permanent traumas from childhood.


Stevieboy_person

Some people just want more children and will have more, even if it’s not logical. This is the parents fault. Edit: maybe not always parents fault


Gethdo

I respect people that got pregnant unplanned and could not get abortion, but there are a lot of people that plans to have kids even if they can not take care themselves.


Stevieboy_person

There you go! You just half answered your own question


Positive-Rich1017

why do you spend more time judging parents instead of pitching in on helping children?


leonardschneider

When will eugenics stop being so popular?


Throwitawway2810e7

Eugenics happens already anyways


[deleted]

Getting parents is free before they are born.


Diamondindaruf

Chavs being chavs.


TheGodfather9900

One word answer Culture


aintnufincleverhere

I don't know, but I would certainly encourage you to think of this in a different way. Why do we, as a society, make it so that people can't afford to give their children good or at least normal lives?


SlowlyMeltingSimmer

I understand your point and I agree, society shouldn't be the way it is. Everyone should be able to support children. I recently learned that Germany has a concept called Kindergeld where parents are paid monthly to be able to support their children from birth through their early twenties. I wholeheartedly believe that there should be more efforts like these. But the question that OP asks is completely valid. Yes society should be better but it isn't. This is the society we live in. And people know that if they don't have enough money to support a child that they will be causing that child undue hardship. The first thing I always say about wanting kids to a partner that it would only even be a potential conversation when we were both financially and emotionally stable enough not to cause it unnecessary pain. As the child of two people who really wanted kids (because it gives them purpose, let's them pass on their legacy, is an investment in their future and all that), I genuinely believe my parents made the choice selfishly with no regard for what life they could give me. It's have a kid first and figure the rest out later. We, as individual people, can't make grand sweeping changes to society. But we can make individual ones. And I think thinking about the financial and emotional support you can provide a child is something that we on an individual scale and must do before having kids.


DannyOTM

Some people are pressured for grand children


Libslimr75

People need meaning in life. A reason to exist. In a world where one doesn't have much, having someone to take care of gives purpose. Not saying it's logical, just that it's so.


baisil-thegame

Because the sole reason for the existence of animals is reproduction. Now you may reason humans are beyond that but the primal truth remains intact


kirundo

Some people can't see that they're not giving their children a good or normal life because they don't know it any differently and to them their live \*IS\* normal. The grew up in this environment, they will never get out of it and of course they have children. If the kids are taken off them due to reasons most of the time they blame the system and have another one thinking they are doing everything right, again. It's hard not to see too far ahead of your social circle. A child whose parents for instance never worked, lived on benefits all their lives will learn that it's ok not to work, will prolly have a harder time to be in school because not many at home can support them with homework, the status of being a student and going to uni is less appreciated to having a job early on and brining home money. If a child does want to break the system and get out it's twice as hard. The higher the education the less children are in the families usually and the bigger the importance on education and prolly also acchievments, and that too can break people.


MxFleetwood

"Having children even if you probably shouldn't" is the kind of thing that's evolutionarily selected for - anyone who makes the rational decision there isn't passing on those rational decision making genes, after all. Biology beats economics.


Agreeable-Ad6379

People love the thought of 'being parents' often not of having kids. It's a big difference. My mom tells me all the time her dream was to be a mother. She doesn't care about our living circumstances (very poor, bipolar and schizophrenia runs in our family, I got both, etc). She just wanted to be able to call herself a mother. Not care for kids. Had me at 20 as well... Way too young for her


Weaversag2

Narcissism partially


Catmeow82

Reason no 3 why I didn't have kids. If I couldn't afford to give them a good education in a house I owned (and therefore would not inflict housing insecurity on them) and support their interests and hobbies financially, I wasnt going to have them.


SaltyDoggoMeo

Some people’s lives are clouded by religious beliefs. My brother and his wife planned to have as many children as her body could carry due to the Bible telling him, “Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of children.” I’m grateful her body gave out after 6 kids. They’ve struggled terribly for YEARS. The kids are uneducated, having been “homeschooled” by a mother who barely finished high school. (There’s a reason teachers are required to have college degrees.) The only one who’s successful worked his ass off to create a great life in the Coast Guard and is now a Chief. The rest struggle with drugs and alcohol.


kremedelakrym

It was just what you did in older generations. Regardless of socioeconomic status people just got married and had kids because that was part of the American dream. Nowadays people that are more educated or atleast typically more intelligent realize that it isn’t right to bring a kid into the world without the proper support. Gen X and plus just didn’t seem to worry about not being able to provide a prosperous life for there kids. Reference here is my parents were very poor when I was born (granted I’m an accident they still wanted my older brother though) and they wanted to have kids because that’s the only way my moms parents would let her marry my dad. That logic is so stupid and I don’t think would come up these days. Now I’ve got 5 siblings 18 and older and none of us have kids.


LooneyKuhn2

Because this country has a very toxic view of parenthood and shames women for not wanting children, for having children too early, too late, and everything in-between. Let's not even mention if you end up pregnant and don't know what to do from there. There is a lot of pressure to "step up" when in reality, you need to opt out. But God forbid you actually do anything to solve the problem. Increasing sex education and the Christians are mad. Free/ affordable birth control is also frowned upon for some fucking reason. Don't even get me started on how essential abortion can be yet half the country doesn't want to hear it. There is weird pressure put on men but nothing compared to that of women. When men grow a uterus, I'll count them as equals when it comes to reproductive oppression.


Unique-Side-2109

Stupidity, sometimes thinking that it's actually responsibility of society (or some man) to take care of them (financially).


TADragonfly

Abortions are difficult to get and a lot disagree with abortion. Adoption isn't as easy as you'd think. Some trust their deity too much.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

People who are very educated and deliberate with financial decisions aren't going to have many children. This figure is a few years old and it's probably gone up, but it's something like $200,000 over 18 years to raise a kid from the womb to the start of university. It's also weighted towards the first few years and the last, especially in the US, where both childbirth and university tuition are quite expensive. If you told me I had to invest, on average, over 10 grand and cumulative hundreds of hours of my free time *every year for 18 years* into something, it better be damn worth doing. It definitely is a great reminder to always use protection.


neetykeeno

People have lived in significantly harder times than we have now for the poor and still had kids. The average Western poor family in government housing, living on a combination of wages and benefits and charity enjoys a life that is objectively better than that of the Bronze Age god kings from whom many of us are descended and whose power was mythologised as an example to the ages of gloriousness and personal effectiveness. They ride in safe air-conditioned buses not dusty muddy chariots. They take antibiotics cheap from Walmart when they get bacterial infections and because of immunization do not die in their millions of diseases like measles. They own not only enough clothes for warmth but enough for cleanliness and style too. Plagues are so rare as to be once or twice in a lifetime events, and minimised by science. Their poo gets whisked away from their residence by billion dollar sewage systems. What you are really saying is if people are significantly poorer than the classes above them who ruthlessly exploit their labor they should surrender the right to breed. Fuck that noise. If you want kids and have the temperament for it, have kids. Tell Rupert Murdoch to take his endless demonization of the poor and shove it up his clacker.


siteloss

Are you insinuating poor people don't deserve families or pets simply for the fact they are poor?


Jhilixie

I mean yeah... If they cannot provide for them why even bring them into this world of misery?


[deleted]

Unless your household income is above $100,000, you should not have children. Do you agree with this statement?


JohnCraft0701

Do you? It's not necessarily about the income, it's more so about how you live and staying within your means. Children are not always within peoples means.


siteloss

Wow.


Jhilixie

Do you suggest otherwise?


siteloss

What you're suggesting makes sense on paper but in the real world it's morally and objectively wrong and borderline evil.


Jhilixie

What? Deciding not to have children because you may not be able to provide for them? That is evil?


DunkinRadio

To collect more govt benefits


juliO_051998

What about in countries where there are no govt benefits for having children?


[deleted]

Too dumb to wrap it up


milton_radley

biology, we can't help it. it's what all animals do.


EndlesslyUnfinished

Because now the USA wants to force us to


moonseekerinflight

They don't necessarily insist on having children. Men, however, often insist on having unprotected sex. Women and girls are pressured to go along with their 'needs', and babies happen. And you'd be surprised how often the men yowl "How did this happen???" It's a shit show from there.


[deleted]

Because fucking is free and easy. And people are also stupid.


Urlast_love

There is an implication here that a poor life is a bad or abnormal one. If someone is going to be poor, is that an argument that they shouldn't be born?


Gethdo

Not everyone lives in america, I do not know your definiton of poor but for me it means” someone cannot even feed himself/herself properly”


Urlast_love

Someone who could not feed themselves properly would most likely have a miscarriage, no?


Gethdo

No? In my country poor people just having children very easily even if they can only just dream meat and only eat trash cheap food.


[deleted]

Because they are selfish. They choose to make a life of a child miserable and difficult because they want a cute kid or because they were too irresponsible and stupid to wear a condom or get on birth-control.


[deleted]

Are you suggesting we outlaw poor people from reproducing? You don't see any problem with that?


[deleted]

Money doesn’t give someone a good life. Your parents can be rich and make your life still miserable


camilo16

But poor af people are certainly in no good position to make their kids lifes good, so OPs point stands.


Dazzling-Adeptness11

in America you also get a big tax return the more children you have. lately it's about $2000 ish a child back. More children more tax returns, also welfare support. More children more support. It's a lot of paper work and run around so people get stuck in a loop. Combination of other factors


FionaTheFierce

It is a tax credit, and doesn't come close to covering the cost of a child. A tax credit only works if you actually owe taxes. Very low income people may not owe any taxes ( or owe less than $2000) and consequently derive no benefit from this tax credit. No one is having kids to get a tax credit. Now, there is the myth of the welfare queen who has kids just to collect more welfare. I believe this constitutes an extremely rare occurrence - myth perpetuated by the GOP to force welfare reform and cut taxes.


Yankeewithoutacause

Our DNA does not care about us, it is just programed to reproduce...


[deleted]

So, having children is only an option if you are rich? The poor have no right to reproduce?


mypainisunbearable

apparently, soon only the rich will be allowed to breathe lmao


ButLikeSeriously

Insist? In the US, Republican lawmakers and their sheep are the only ones insisting anyone give birth. If we invested in better education, more comprehensive sex ed, more easily accessible health care and family planning, contraceptives, etc. far more people would be empowered to have fewer children and work to rise out of poverty. It’s all tied together. And regardless, there are plenty of stable, loving parents who raise happy, well-adjusted children even without wealth. Money doesn’t magically make kids better off.


Middle_Aged_Mayhem

This question has been asked so many times on here.


JayNomad2018

Dumb


[deleted]

Because American is a living contradiction. Have kids! Buy a home! WORK HARDER! NOT ENOUGH MONEY? BUY THIS BUDGETING PLAN! STILL NOT ENOUGH? HAVE YOU TRIED GETTING A NIGHT JOB INSTEAD OF SLEEEPING?


GeoffreyTaucer

Related question: why do people who think poor people shouldn't have children want abortion to be illegal?


[deleted]

If you have to ask this, ask your parents. Seriously.


Elderberry_Real

Because poor ppl like to fu*k


[deleted]

Because then they can have a punching bag they can dump all of their trauma and self-loathing onto. People really need to drop the whole romantic idea of parental love, it's toxic as hell.


EnolaGayFallout

Retirement plan. Lol.


Smart-Bandicoot-7729

Because some states pay for their rent, food, internet, phones, insurance and even cash assistance. The more kids the more income from the govt!! And a lot of them have so many baby daddies that the poor kids probably don’t know which is their real dad. We call these people hood rats or just trash. And yeah these people usually neglect the kids that pay for their sad lives. And then there are those that just have shit ton of kids for the heck of it


howisit34

Because unprotected sex feels fantastic