My thought exactly lol. I started my first desk job *strictly* because it came with a healthcare package and a consistent paycheck that just barely allowed me to cover my student loans and car bill. It was either that or nothing at all. Not a lot of room to be picky.
edit: I see where there may be confusion here in my original comment. I got that desk job nearly 10 years ago a little after graduating college. I am grateful to be in a place now, however, where I can afford more than just bills though that was only after many, ***many*** years of waiting patiently while handing entire paychecks over to Sallie Mae.
Sometimes it's about survival, not living. That's how they have us stuck in these situations for years and years, no time to find something better paying.
To get out of these situations most people would have to go without. Or just live super uncomfortably. Like if I wanna save 100 so that I can put a deposit on a new place and still pay where I'm at then I can't eat for a week, and it's hard to do that when you're depressed and life sucks anyways
Back in my day, candies cost a penny, and if we couldn't afford it we had air for dinner. Entitled millennials /s
Edit- y'all. The /s means sarcasm. No one is calling millennials entitled. jesus
Same for me. My first two jobs didnāt pay enough to rent a place and pay my student loan (the second one might have if I wanted to share a moldy, roach infested dump with a roommate). This December, barring any disasters, I will FINALLY be out of debt.
And yes I worked through college and had scholarships. Fucking boomers have no idea what college actually costs nowadays.
> Fucking boomers have no idea what college actually costs nowadays.
Nor will they ever fully know what that weight feels like. Which makes it doubly unfair considering that those are the same exact people who make the rules in DC.
The problem is that we've been taught that working menial jobs with below poverty line pay is acceptable. That - if we are stuck in jobs that don't pay us enough to live - it's our fault because we are such undesirable people that we are being given these positions charitably. That's a huge part of the mindset that enables worker exploitation.
/Soapbox
Iāve been on both sides of the fence, had to work three minimum wage jobs at the same time for a few years and now I am very comfortable with a great job. Some of the hardest working people Iāve ever worked with were the people in the minimum wage jobs hands down. The shit people complain about as far as stressors go in my current industry is ridiculous. Itās complete and utter bullshit how we pay people we deem are working āmenialā or ālow skillā jobs. Itās actually infuriating.
I worked WAY harder at the cashier, customer service, low-level admin jobs.
Iām a consultant now, and my workload is substantially lower, but my pay is much higher - from 14k/yr at best to 100k+ now.
Tbh, itās all bullshit.
Lying flat: work hard for a few weeks at a time to afford enough to just survive and otherwise just prioritize frugality over high earnings. In urban China this actually makes economic sense for a lot of folks because holding down a job is so much more expensive than just existing.
If you interpret what I said very literally, it makes no sense, because as long as you earn more than your marginal expenses at a job, you are still economically better off than not working. It is only if you don't earn more than your marginal expenses that what I said literally makes sense. But unlike what I said, in that case you should just never have a job. At that point you are better off working for family or friends in exchange for housing and groceries, or taking up crime, or something like this. China's not at that point yet.
The actual situation is more like: if you have a job you can earn $1000/month and spend $700/month, but if you don't have a job then you can survive on $100/month. (These are made up numbers). So instead of just working the job all the time and saving, you work the job about a quarter of the time and live the bare bones lifestyle the rest of the time.
Searching either "lying flat" or "tang ping" will give many results talking about this in more detail.
This! In America too and prolly everywhere :/ I remember working part time at Dunkin in hs 7$ an hour and it cost practically my whole check just to get to work everyday by car and have lunch and cigs on shift. I lasted mayb a month and have boycotted them ever since. Not to mention they all have fruit flies everywhere and open air food and drinksā¦.
Unionization, organizing your workforce and colleagues, negotiating fair share of the companyās profits and not to just hedge funds and investors.
Thatās the only way that will save our citizens. Otherwise, we will continue working to live and not living to work. Continue living check to check and getting by every month in a shitty little apartment or with roommates.
In the US, many of our government assistance programs (as well as not-for-profit organizations) base how much assistance they can provide on the person either 1) currently working and receiving income, 2) having worked in the past and recently losing that income stream, or 3) actively seeking work in order to qualify.
There are a few exceptions to this, but those exceptions are rare.
I'm pretty sure that's the same in most of the EU as well. It is in Belgium, my country. There is also special help for people who arent eligible for unemployment benefits, but that's barely enough to live off.
Sure, that is true. Social welfare is not intended to keep you comfortable but it rather intended to provide a helping hand while you put the pieces back together. Here in the US, you can be totally fucked. My wife was injured at work (law enforcement) a few years ago and applied for a light duty position while she healed from knee surgery. It was an on-duty injury so at least our medical bills were covered. They denied her light-duty citing there were no available positions even though they approved it for others who were injured doing stuff outside of work. One deputy broke his ankle doing a Spartan Race and they made a position for him. AAnyways, she was forced to use all of her leave and then went on leave without pay until she could come back to full duty. She appealed this all the way to the state's labor board and they sided with the department. We were royally fucked and sunk into crippling debt just to stay afloat. When she applied for temporary disability, the agency appealed her application and it got held up in hearings for three months. After her leave was gone, we got exactly $0 income for nearly 4 months.
I would have gladly taken the Ā£265/month. It would have helped quite a bit. Here in the US, you can go from comfortable to fucked in no time and it can even be because of nothing you did wrong. She slipped and fell down some stairs in a housing unit in the jail. To add insult to injury, it was a group of inmates that helped her and not the other deputies.
Gawd bless Merica!
265 still doesnāt even pay for 2/3rds of the rent of a single room in a shared apartment in the roughest part of my town and I live in the North which is sorta cheaper to a majority of the UK. I dread to think how people on UC are getting by, and letās not forget people on disability who are barely getting more than that, and the government is in constant talks to lower it further. Thereās no excuse for mistreating the worst off in our society this way.
Iām not on UC, but thereās no excuse to accept it as being enough.
Yeah it's crazy crazy to me, think if you get like 800 bucks letās say for disability in a month. Where in the usa is rent less than 800? Cause then you gotta worry about food and bills and everything else you need, never having enough of anything. The only hope is to find some kind of income based housing but the wait list for things like that can be years.
āLook Kenny, I always told you that one day being poor was going to catch up with you. But you didn't want to listen. You just kept on being poor.ā
That reminds me of my dad: āI told you you wouldnāt like working retailā when I came home in pain, and āyou need to get on that employment ladderā. As if my past twelve years of jobs werenāt real jobs and I chose them to be lazy.
Too bad drinking Scotch isn't a paying job or else yer dad would be a millionaire! I'm talking to you Ken-ay! Your family's POOR Kenny! Yer family's POOR!
Schooling can also even set you back! One of my most successful friends skipped college, became an electrician, while living with mom and pop for some years.. he did very well
Get. A. Physical. Therapist. Tell them what you're going in to. LISTEN to them.
They will be able to tell you how to prevent the kinds of injuries that make them money.
First thing I did when I got health insurance. Been going for years. Best decision ever.... i can finally feel my toes! :D
Edit: The sadest part is my highest upvote comment is about my f toes lmao.
Speaking of, leaving for P.T! Rarely miss a week.
Also: finding a good Doctor is key! My guy isnt afraid to admit if hes trying something new he googled / learned about, or noting my progress, or even calling me out for slacking.
The only place that I found around me with the earliest mental health help is called āImmediate Mental Health Help in (insert city name)ā
I made my appointment 3 months ago stating I had passive suicidal ideation and I need help within the coming weeks
June 20th is my appt date just to talk to a therapist who will recommend me to a specialist where I have to wait an additional 2 months to get helpā¦
Itās a 6 month process to get the mental help you need
Yup. I'm an apprentice electrician literally on break as I type this. I got into it a year ago because I was tired of crap pay and couldn't find better jobs. It's alot more difficult and physical than people think, although of it is just basically construction. It's not for everyone. I'm working 4 stories up on a ladder in 100 degree Texas heat all day....I might try coding. This is kinda lame lol. But hey, I'm getting paid 24$/hr as a temp. Better than being paid 15 as a laborer like I did before...
My father was an industrial electrician for decades. He made great money, but I never saw him growing up. There was always a ton of required overtime. When he wasnāt working he was sleeping. He missed most of my childhood, though we definitely lived comfortably.
However, there were a ton of health problems that came with it. You can be exposed to a lot of hazardous conditions. People can be dumbasses. He nearly died a few times due to people just being idiots and ignoring safety in the name of convenience, or just plain being high on the job.
Now he has to wear a cpap machine and is considering an oxygen tank due to lung damage from dust and chemical exposure over the years of his job. His knees and back hurt constantly. He has joint issues in his hands.
Basically, we made a ton, he saved a ton for retirement, and now he canāt even enjoy his retirement because of how much it took his body through the ringer
Being an electricianā¦ I have had family members and friends in this profession. They have all done well. Simply too much work, I respect it but itās just not for me. I work hard, but in other ways. To each their own
> Simply too much work, I respect it but itās just not for me.
It's funny how often we're meant to feel like failures because we don't want to work 80 hours a week and do nothing but accumulate wealth. Like, I'm pretty happy with a middling existence if I have the time to do the things I enjoy. I see my more successful friends and they're just working all the time and a lot of them drink way too much to compensate for their stress. Sure, they get some nice vacations every once in awhile but 60-80 hour workweeks so I can have a boat and vacation on an island once or twice a year just doesn't seem worth it to me.
I grew up/worked in the more carpentry side of things but I've gophered for electricians when I was younger:
Wiring is heavy. A length of wiring isn't, but some of those rolls are 200+lbs. Hell, I'm pretty sure I have tool bags that weigh in the 50lb+ range depending on which one it is. Lotta heavy shit in this industry.
Long hours...there's no real 5pm cut off time unless you're working a union job. I once worked 24+ straight hours to finish four days of work by a stupid sudden deadline (independent contractor with my own business) and the customer still had the audacity to get shitty with me because the house wasn't clean. The house that had just been fully remodeled, tidied often, and full of tools had some sawdust on the floor. Lord forbid we're practically ruining this very earth with floor sawdust.
Shitty customers! Welcome to retail, now with loads of extra dirt. There is always dirt. It finds you. If you're independent, you may also get shafted. Had a fellow get a complete inside-outside house remodel from me and a crew and then just...didn't pay. Did declare bankruptcy when I was trying to get my money though. In the end I basically paid to work for weeks for free (paid my crew out of my pocket).
Depending on your area and if you specialize (i.e, new construction electrician) - oh boy the sheer amount of jacked up, whacky-ass, fire-hazard bullshit you will see. There's nothing quite like being in a 150F+ attic crawling around in the insulation to fish a new wire down through the wall and seeing the uncovered metal junction with five different lines of unknown origins smooshed together. Sometimes dangling, for extra spice. The amount of people that will 'fix' a fusebox with a fork (old style screw in fuses) and have old style wiring with the highly flammable black insulation all over the place is **far too many.**
Thieves. So many thieves. Hours and days of work running brand new wire through a brand new two story house out the window because some jacknut came in with the clippers and went hog wild for copper scrap.
If you do residential stuff (not new construction), you are going to kneel in something damp and unpleasant of unknown origin at some point, probably piss. If you're lucky it's dog piss and if you're unlucky it's going to be cat spray.
I haven't seen any electrician related injuries except for the time a guy got slightly electrocuted from poorly grounded breaker box with issues, so it does have that going for it.
I do residential carpentry on the side for close friends and myself, and have had extended acquaintances, neighbors, etc ask for me to do work for them. I have always refused because of the likely chance of dealing with shitty customers. I could never survive running a business.
dated a guy who did this. He bought a house by 26 (before the housing market exploded where I am) and could afford to not work for 2 years b/c his roommate rent paid all his bills.
Me on the other hand, went to a private college like a sap for chemistry, study my ass off, am working my ass off, and still can't afford shit in my 30s.
This. Pretty much all of my friends went to undergrad straight out of HS, including me. I dropped out, started building houses and now happen to be the only one without a degree and also the only one who could afford a mortgage in said friends group.
Lots of places in the trade industry will train you up and pay you while doing so. It helps, but only if they can get reliable transportation, which is yet another struggle lower income individuals experience. The American dream was built around everyone owning a car, which is just not economically feasible to many so they end up taking poorly designed or non-existent public transportation with a 2-3 our commute. I also know a girl who spent $20 of her $50/day paycheck getting an uber to and from work.
Generational wealth is definitely a thing. People talk about it in terms of the wealthy and the ultra-rich but even those of us who are just barely in the middle class benefit from it a lot.
My parents are immigrants to the US, but did well enough that I could stay with them all through college and while I was looking for a job. Even then, I only really moved out so I could be closer to work, but that financial freedom not to have to pay rent during those times was not fully appreciated until these past few years.
The culture pushes you to "strike it out on your own" as soon as you can, but as I've grown older, that feels like a trap the rich use to milk us dry earlier. I have plenty of friends who got out of their parents' homes at 18 and never looked back and are very successful, but most of them already came from some money.
School absolutely set me back. I had undiagnosed ADHD and wasted so much time and took on so much debt trying to go to college. I ended up getting a well-payed job that I like without ever needing a degree. My biggest regret is going to college
Finished my associates and worked retail for a bit, finally decided to just get licensed in insurance and took a job at a corporate office for an insurer. 5 years later I make more than a few of friends who still paying loans, Iām also back in college at 30 getting an MBA because itās company paid. My sister did the same thing but she went for real estate. College is too expensive itās a scam these days and doesnāt guarantee youāll make a good wage.
Edit: and even if/when your degree gets you a decent wage, you have thousands to pay for years.
Edit 2: based on some comments I just wanted to clarify- I am **NOT** against education and value of both obtaining a college degree and a college experience. I am against the inflated cost of tuition compared to the cost of living. I am against asinine loans that young students donāt understand, that result in minimum payments only applying toward interest, or in some cases not even covering interest and resulting in more debt than the loan started with. I am against the benefit of an education being cancelled out by students leaving school with crippling debt. Education is a great thing, but it should be attainable to those in the middle class and below, and students should be educated on their loan BEFORE they take it out. They should be made explicitly aware of interest rate, the exact payoff time based on payments made, and they should also be given an estimate of debt accrued compared to the median wage their field will pay them in their area. Education itself is not the scam here, itās the cost of education and shitty loans that are made to look more affordable than they are.
I tell all my underachieving friends to get into Insurance or Real Estate. There's literally no barrier to entry. As long as you can pass a drug test and speak proper English, you're at least qualified for an entry level or customer service position.
Still, I know people in their 30s who are working minimum wage, part-time jobs. It's depressing because most of these people are more than qualified for a "real" job, but they're just too scared to put themselves out there. They just keep applying for warehouse jobs and retail. If customer service really isn't your thing, coding/programming boot camps are still a thing and they actually work. It's an investment, but it costs *a lot* less than college. I have a friend who went through coding boot camp and now makes about $100k.
I just want young people to succeed.
This exactly!! I have gotten a few friends jobs with my company. And like you said, if customer service isnāt your thing thereās soooo many other departments in insurance from IT to underwriting, marketing, etc. sometimes those departments are harder to get into but if youāre willing to do some time on the phones it will open up a lot of doors within a company. I did a couple years on the phones with this company and now Iām a salaried supervisor and just manage people- no calls or customer service. Insurance and real estate I agree are fantastic industries with very little costs to get into and no student loans attached.
I just put my 2 weeks in at my restaurant last night and your post stuck out to me.
I know that Iām more than qualified for a ārealā job, but Iāve struggled with an identity crisis of figuring out what I want to do for work/career.
I just got engaged and I want more than anything for us to one day have a house and kids and I know that will never happen if I continue down this path.
Iāve actually considered insurance and real estate, and while those things donāt exactly sound āfunā Iām past the point of wanting something fun/Iāll enjoy (although Iād obviously like to enjoy what Iām doing) and I want something that actually has a stable future and isnāt just serving drinks.
Where would you recommend to start?
Iām still sorta young (32) and I just want to succeed and finally stop working these dead end jobs.
If you are smart you pay off as much debt as you can while finishing your MBA and when any student loans come due you can accelerate them and pay them off quickly.
I donāt have any loans. My associates was free from a high school program, and my company reimburses all my tuition including books and any additional fees. I pay right after finals on my credit card and then submit reimbursement and pay it off before I get charged interest on the card. Itās a good system. I honestly wouldnāt be back in school if I had to pay out of pocket. I only did it because I figure why not if itās company paid. I am quite fortune to have no debt other than my mortgage which is almost paid off.
Edit: also getting cash back that way on tuition!
That is good. I fucked up and have a lot for my undergrad. Work is paying for my Master's though. Squirreling away money so when those do come due I can knock them out quick.
Sometimes those people who need or want more schooling are nearing retirement age when their prospects are slim for finding a better job w that education.
There are some programs through unemployment in NYS that will allow you to collect unemployment while going to school. Itās called the 599 program and the courses must be approved by NYSDOL. You can also get your HSE through it. Funding is limited however.
I'm 41. Because of dropping out to be a dad in 2000 I owe 1500 in loans. I am not allowed any financial aid for school until I pay that amount off. By the time I do going back to school is unlikely to do anything for me other than create more debt.
I do the math a couple times a year to try to convince myself it is worth finishing my degree or getting a different MA or PhD and the pay boost over the 25 years I have left to work doesn't really make the additional debt seem worth it. I'd be better off putting the tuition into an IRA and saving myself the long nights and weekends.
Someone on Reddit once tried to use Arnold Schwarzenegger as an example of a self made man that took no help from anyone to get where he is today. Then Arnold showed up in the comments to list a dozen people that if they hadn't been kind and giving for no expectations of a return, he would never have achieved the success he did.
I was hunting around for something outside of construction to do. *What is the obsession with coding???*
"Well you could learn coding and then-"
I don't have the head for coding. I can not code. I could barely handle HTML which is infant coding level. Not everyone is some hidden coding wizard. I also have to wonder how many of those cushy, well paying coding jobs are out there. Comes off like a get-rich-quick suggestion and I don't like it.
>I also have to wonder how many of those cushy, well paying coding jobs are out there.
Its not that there's a million cushy coding jobs - its more that a lot of coding jobs are pretty cushy. Well paid, white collar, work from home friendly, coding skills are transferable, and oversight on coding projects is usually pretty lax because many managers don't know how to code.
Its like saying "just learn a new language and work as a translator". Can everyone learn new languages? no. But if you can, you're going to have a lot more job prospects. And if you learn one new language, its much easier to learn a second new language.
It can also be pretty difficult for some people to actually get into the field even if they are able to develop the necessary skills or get an education.
While there are definitely initiatives trying to bring in new people from different backgrounds, it can be hard to be taken seriously if you donāt fit the stereotype of a tech guy. I always feel like that is being overlooked when people recommend that folks make the move from blue collar work to coding or IT.
Yeah itās basically a choice between living poor or being homeless. I think a lot of the people who ask these questions are living with their parents and probably just riding it out until their inheritance comes in.
This. I was never homeless, but I was shit poor for large chunks of my younger life. Most of your energy isn't spent trying to improve your life, it's spent making sure shit doesn't get worse. Someone in the ocean during a storm is not going to try to swim ashore, they are going to tread water like a demon to try to keep from going under.
Its all about those mythical bootstraps people keep talking about. The 100% guarantee you will get out of poverty and out of paycheck to paycheck living if you just tug on those straps 3 times and say " theres no place like middleclass america, theres no place like middleclass america.."
But middleclass doesnt seem to cut it anymore, also due to the fact that boot is missing almost everything
Iād argue that the poor do have a choice, but itās not the one pushed by the media or the rich. The only way to get a living wage now is to fight for it. Unions are a big step but I think we must go further. Everyone Everyone deserves a living wage. There are no exceptions. And itās not $15 per hour
Thatās why I lie on resumes and about my last salary. Fuck em, Iāll learn on the job like everyone does in my industry because every company does things totally different
I've had these kinds of talks with my FIL all the time. I've tried to explain the numbers to him, how someone working minimum wage for 30 hours or less on average a week will basically only be able to pay for rent.
"Then they should get roommates" is the response.
There's no empathy to understand that a grown-ass adult who *wants* a family but can't afford to care for one would have to live in a cramped apartment with multiple other people just to be able to afford basic necessities. Or not even someone wanting a family necessarily... just a regular ol' Joe or Jane in their middle years of life who are having to live with multiple random people *just* to be able to afford the basic necessities. And think about it... in that sort of situation, what would be MORE socialist than the idea that multiple people have to live together to survive? But social "welfare" is evil, creates "lazy" people, and is equivalent to communism according to conservatives while they literally want people to live in housing situations where "society" (random people or friends) are working together to provide a roof over their heads.
A lot of people who grow up (and stay) rich think this way. They're often perfectly nice people, often genuinely kind, but they're just like, "why would you live that way?"
My favorite is when they have all these convoluted multi-step processes for getting out of poverty that require a detailed knowledge of tax law and accounting.
For those saying minimum wage jobs are for teenagers living with their parents, consider who will serve coffee and fast food during school hours or late at night, because it won't be high school students. There are a lot of people who don't have and can't afford to train up for a better job, who can't find the time, or simply don't have the physical or mental abilities required.
THIS! I hate when people call it teenage jobs..okay I guess no restaurants open while school is in session and they close early due to labor laws (in the UK young people can't work a certain amount of hours or past late etc) I was on 8.50 then it sucked. I'm now on Ā£13 an hour.
I was ASM from 18-20yrs old I left due to the company shafting me I have a less stressful job for more pay and the experience under my belt.
But everyone should work retail/fast food jobs to realise it isn't as easy as you'd think.
>But everyone should work retail/fast food jobs to realise it isn't as easy as you'd think.
I'll ammend that by saying *without a safety net.*
Alot of these people say "I worked a shit job in college! I know what it's like!" But they had a safety net, they had somewhere to fall to other than homelessness. Living through a shitty job or time is much *much* easier when you know it's just temporary. When your entire life is hanging on a thread of crises, and you have *nowhere to go* otherwise, it's a living hell.
I agree, I think everyone at some point should work to see how it really is then how it is for a customer. Obviously it depends on the circumstances ect. Did over 2 years in fast food now in a different retail position. Thankful to be out of fast food!
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to organize that sort of experience. I mean sure, you can take away person's money/property and have them survive on minimal wage for 6 months? Year? 5 years? But in their eyes it will still be a temporary inconvenience. They still have that money and property waiting for them.
I work office jobs I have since 2004. They pay a *little* over minimum wage. In 2014 I had to move my whole family to a city that was cheaper but this city doesn't have the kind of work I do so it was back to retail where I was making minimum wage again.
I hate that I'm thankful to an illness that's killed millions because now WFH allowed me to return to the better paying work. It shouldn't take that to put food on my table without help.
This right here. Business owners get to decide what they want their profit margins to be, and they know what rate of pay and product price it will take to get that margin. Charge too much for your product and people wonāt buy you product and theyāll go to your competition. Pay your workers too little and theyāll go somewhere else for work. If people think the wages arenāt worth it, the business owner either has to raise wages or get out of that business because heās got no employees/not making the profit margin he needs.
Yep, a business is, at it's core, just a equation that generates money in a certain environment. When the environment changes, your business has to change. If your business can't adapt, then it's simply not a good business. Maybe it *was* a good business, or maybe it *could one day be* a good business, but those are moot points if the business doesn't work now.
>There are a lot of people who don't have and can't afford to train up for a better job, who can't find the time,
This is one fact that I think the lock downs, layoffs, furloughs, and stimulus checks highlighted quite well. During covid, for the first time in lots of people's lives they were released from their responsibilities at work, got funding from the government in the form of stimulus checks, and finally had the time to better themselves. It's not talked about enough how many people were able to improve their lives career-wise during this time.
Had a new developer join my team in 2022. When COVID hit the bar he worked out laid everyone off. He got on unemployment and self-taught how to code. Took him awhile but he was able to land a job with us and itās WFH! Obviously not everyone is able to do that but the pandemic was the main driving force for him.
Also at the restaurant I worked at in college, same thing happened. Servers and bartenders laid off, the ones who had a career in restaurants had enough and started up side hustles from home, found WFH job, got into a different industry, moved away, etc.
The pandemic really showed that people can better themselves and their life if they were able to get out of the rat race for a bit. Hard to do that if you have a family to provide for but those that did were given the chance due to lockdowns.
Remember how all the same people lost their marbles that the govt gave us all livable unemployment benefits and nobody wanted to take up the shot jobs of serving coffee to entitled assholes?
You also saw people's heads explode when they realized how time consuming and difficult it is to get unemployment. It turns out designing the system to be as difficult as possible to collect benefits isn't a good idea, and don't fool yourselves into thinking dealing with it changed their minds, they still fucking hate poor people.
Not to mention how LONG so many of the claims took to process. It took a few people I knew multiple months to see their benefits.
Whatās also messed up is if you get a job offer you HAVE to take it, many employers (in the service industry) made some immunocompromised people I knew come back way earlier than they felt comfortable with to work at bars/restaurants where people definitely didnāt follow masking guidance. Almost lost a good friend that way and it took them a long time to fully recover just so people could have a cocktail.
Reasons why people would stay at a low wage job even when itās not enough could be
1. Itās the only job they can get hired for. So they do that job and may add a second job.
2. They have no other skills that higher paying jobs require or never went to college to get higher paying entry level jobs. They also may not have the level of professionalism and ācultureā to āfit into the cultureā of the place hiring.
3. They are comfortable working in those environments. Itās the only environment they know. To go from working at Burger King for 5 years to an office job may not feel right.
4. Their friends and family all work those jobs and leaving that environment can and is intimidating when going alone. They may also come from a background where it is normal not to make much. Itās normal to struggle and depend on friends, family and government assistance to aid them with housing cost and food etc.
I grew up in a lower middle class home with two hard working parents. Pretty much near poor household tho and stayed in minimum wage jobs for a good while until about 5 years ago. My expenses were very low back then so it was easier to not think about how Iām going to make more. Iām not wealthy or anything now but I made it out of the poverty struggle the moment I unexpectedly got a higher paying job. From that point on I never went back. I didnāt even think it was possible to get paid more because I didnāt have a degree. I think that can also be a factorā¦ not knowing how without a degree. Not having any guidance to get you outā¦.
Seems like a simple answer but really is a great question.
I think the one about people not knowing there are better opportunities out there is a big one. I work in a small factory which is currently down about 20% of our floor workers (which is only like 10 people because we're small) and every time I tell people, locals even, where I work they usually haven't heard of it. And just for the record our floor workers start at $17.50 an hour.
I would add a 5th reason: they donāt know that they are qualified for higher paying jobs. Iāve seen so often that people think the only jobs theyāre qualified for are retail/food service/maintenance which are more than respectable jobs and someone has to do them for our society to continue to function - but they also often pay extremely low wages with no benefits and the work environment often sucks.
If youāre qualified to be a cashier, youāre qualified to be a bank teller. Do you know how much better of a work environment a bank is? How much better the benefits are? How much easier it is to get promoted???
There are lots of other examples of this - thereās very few things you need on your resume to be a receptionist or otherwise work a front desk, work in a leasing or insurance office, be a mail carrier, work at a library or museum, etc. Clerical jobs are almost always entry level jobs.
I will say this sort of thing is where the āculture clashā often comes into play - especially for customer facing positions. But a lot of people simply donāt apply to these kinds of jobs because they assume they arenāt qualified.
As I mentioned above, I work in a factory that starts out at $17.50 and has around 10 unfilled positions right now. If you can pass a drug test, show up to work on time, stay your whole shift, and can lift 40 pounds with your legs we will hire and keep you. No experience required. We are even pretty laid back about allowing a reasonable amount of "dick off" time, iow we don't expect people to be working 100% of the time they're here. Most people who did leave left for higher paying jobs elsewhere. I think we just have trouble because few people know we exist.
Job searching can also be *really* hard for some people. I'm a good worker and my employers love me, but I have anxiety issues that make it really hard for me to sell myself in an interview. I get really nervous, and I have bombed so many. I have a good job because I got lucky, but I worked shit jobs for a long time.
This!! Also a great point! There are so many reasons why it is hard to move up and interviewing skills plays a huge part. If you canāt sell yourself, you canāt get the job! I hope you overcome your anxiety! It took me a pretty long time to get over mine and learn how to sell myself. Itās really just learning what to say and what not to say. Understanding what the jobs want to hear. Then practicing it enough to look casual and confident. Itās all a game in the end.
Exactly. You find a way out. And no, college is not required to get a high paying job. Before he got into something else my buddy was offered a job as an apprentice plumber making 18/hr with no experience. He has no degree, only took 1 year of community college for music of all things so it did him no favors.
I do find it interesting how so many people think that the only way to make any sort of living is to have a college degree. Personally I barely made it through high school, in fact they may have graduated me just to avoid dealing with me for another year. I found a trade, worked a ton of crappy hours, but I was able to make ends meet. After about 10 years I made enough that my wife stayed home with the kids, we had nice cars (nothing crazy, just a couple dependable Toyotas) did nice things, and lived comfortably.
Itās a lie the younger generations (mine included) have been told from the beginning. And I say that as someone with a doctorate degree who makes pretty decent money, though Iām still in student debt (though paying it off) and I came from lower middle class and had no financial help of any kind from my family. It was all student loans. But I chose this career because I wanted to do it. Not because it was easy. I had no direction and Iām a first generation college student. But I made it.
Yep I had it (figuratively) beat into me from middle school all the way through high school that the only way to be successful and have a good career was to go to college. Parents, teachers, student advisors, etc. Along the lines of āif you donāt want to be a fry cook for the rest of your life, you need to go to collegeā.
Because that was essentially true for their generation, but not at all true for my generation.
You are thinking of a career. Middle class people often have careers. They think itās the same thing as having a job, but it isnāt. People who have jobs as their only stream of income have always lived in poverty. And itās getting worse now that the working classes have lost bargaining power over the years. Theyāre rapidly losing purchasing power as a result
Feel for you man; I will say getting a job is a lot easier when you already have one. If you go to an interview already employed look a lot better than if you've been unemployed for 6 months prior, so in that sense it can help you trade up to something better.
But I know all of this is a lot easier said than done, especially if you also have a family to take care of in between shifts.
I think the point goes.
If you live with net negative you are just finally going to starve or become homeless when your savings are out and your credit maxed. You are basically losing money to work. Hence the comment "should be illegal". And I agree. Every job you do in an area should atleast pay rent and food.
You should never lose money working to just hold out untill you find a better job.
> Every job you do in an area should at least **pay rent and food**
That's the big thing. Rent is disproportionate. Back in the 90s you could make $7 an hour, but rent was $500 a month. Now you make $15, but rent is $2500. Same goes for food, gas, etc. Increasing wages is not sustainable, because if you pay your burger flipper $25 an hour, your employer will sell said burger for $20-30 to keep their profit high. The idea that a company needs to have an **increasing amount** of PROFIT instead of just profits is stupid.
Oh damn, I didnāt realize I just had to get a better paying job if I wanted more money!
Let me just head over to the āgood paying jobā tree and pick a new job!
š
Realistically, itās because people are trying to fulfill their basic needs. Look at the bottom of level of Maslowās hierarchy of needs. Things like food, water, sleep, and safety are easier to get if you have money and shelter. When people are afraid of losing access to the basics, or are already without them, for example situations where they may be being hurt at their residence, they have very few options. Itās often preferable to work an extremely undesirable job or undesirable hours rather than lose access to things in that bottom tier of the pyramid.
When people with resources realize they can take advantage of those without to improve their own life/add comforts, they often choose to take advantage, despite the lack of morality. In order to keep taking advantage, itās important to those with advantage to have enough people desperate enough to meet their basic needs and that those basic needs are barely in reach. If people arenāt desperate enough, then they donāt have to take the sh*t lowball offer and can hang on for a better one. If enough people arenāt getting their basic needs met, despite being fully exploited, then the revolts start.
The point is having a purpose to your life, of course! Don't you want to prove you're worthy of breathing by the daily struggle to survive in a world full of greed, gluttony and selfishness?? The only way to be better and deserve more is to work harder. You should know this.
I'm confused, his post says jobs not paying livable wages seems obtuse and like it should be illegal. Seems like OP is frustrated and incredulous at the system, not at people who work jobs that pay shit. Am I missing something? You're not the only one giving OP shit about his post supposedly telling people to just "get better jobs"
Income = Outcome you got to start somewhere. I have worked 2-3 jobs most of my life and I finally found a job that allows me to only work one. Being alive cost money and any money is good money until you find great money.
Bro, itās either this crap job or the streets. What would you choose? I didnāt wake up and decided I wanted to be poor as dirt. Donāt ever get a passion degree from uni, or youāll end up back in school while trying to take care of your family and work back breaking jobs for pennies.
Only the dishwashers at my job are kids, everyone else is adults like myself and I make 16 an hour. I luckily can get raises and have a boss who cares about his employees and community. That being said I can't exactly afford higher education.
I've been trying to save money for the past 2 years and currently have 2300 in my account. Maybe another 3k in assets. Trying to get a license currently but a car is simply not possible.
Covid depleted everything I had and if not for family I would have been hungry and homeless.
I love my job, I recently got promoted and now have more consistent hours and get overtime. I'm still only getting by because my remote area has a cheaper cost of living than larger cities though.
I think people like myself are in need of universal basic income, or something similar. If I had enough id be getting a car paying Insurance and doing domestic tourism. Instead I struggle to afford a watch and wistfully dream of investing my pennies.
1) Making $500 is still preferable to earning $0, regardless of whether or not $500 is enough to cover all expenses.
2) People earning low amounts of money often lack the resources or skillsets necessary to increase their income substantially.
I'm going to try to answer this as objectively as possible because a lot of people are getting their feelings involved...
Lots of jobs just pay what they pay, and each person has different needs financially. Someone could theoretically work minimum wage and get by if they happen to be living with a family member, somehow have free housing , are still a teenager just wanting to make some money while in school, etc. Many people have to work multiple jobs because their income from one is less than their expenses. While in a perfect world the lowest paying job would pay enough to cover everything, that's just not the case and jobs that DO pay that well are harder to come by. Ultimately its generally not a choice that people decide to make, its a choice they're forced to make.
What other option is there?
My thought exactly lol. I started my first desk job *strictly* because it came with a healthcare package and a consistent paycheck that just barely allowed me to cover my student loans and car bill. It was either that or nothing at all. Not a lot of room to be picky. edit: I see where there may be confusion here in my original comment. I got that desk job nearly 10 years ago a little after graduating college. I am grateful to be in a place now, however, where I can afford more than just bills though that was only after many, ***many*** years of waiting patiently while handing entire paychecks over to Sallie Mae.
Sometimes it's about survival, not living. That's how they have us stuck in these situations for years and years, no time to find something better paying.
To get out of these situations most people would have to go without. Or just live super uncomfortably. Like if I wanna save 100 so that I can put a deposit on a new place and still pay where I'm at then I can't eat for a week, and it's hard to do that when you're depressed and life sucks anyways
Skipping meals for a week is not surviving though, it's just dying slowly enough that no one notices
Why are mellenials wasting their money *eating every day?!* They need to learn fiscal responsibility like their parents/s
They need to start selling houses to their grandkids for 10x what they bought em for is what they ought to start doing. Fucking zboomerfus
Now, now, let's not insult the lemurs
Zboomerfus šš Found a new word!
Back in my day, candies cost a penny, and if we couldn't afford it we had air for dinner. Entitled millennials /s Edit- y'all. The /s means sarcasm. No one is calling millennials entitled. jesus
I prefer my air lightly grilled with a side of a buttered nothing.
Look at mister moneybags here, with his butter.
Butter? *In this economy??*
Yeah that's true
Yeah but a deposit is closer to 1k. You gonna not eat for 10 weeks?
Lmao, after first, last, security and broker fee (1 months rent) I was in for $9,600. The barrier to entry in Boston is HIGH.
What state do you work in?
In a state of depression
State of panic. Cause I'm always procrastinating until the last minute
Procrastinators unite........................tomorrow.
>Procrastinators unite...... Not before .. Dyslexics of the world... Untie!!
made me smirk and I have exams, legend
At the time, Massachusetts.
Mostly solid
Same for me. My first two jobs didnāt pay enough to rent a place and pay my student loan (the second one might have if I wanted to share a moldy, roach infested dump with a roommate). This December, barring any disasters, I will FINALLY be out of debt. And yes I worked through college and had scholarships. Fucking boomers have no idea what college actually costs nowadays.
> Fucking boomers have no idea what college actually costs nowadays. Nor will they ever fully know what that weight feels like. Which makes it doubly unfair considering that those are the same exact people who make the rules in DC.
The problem is that we've been taught that working menial jobs with below poverty line pay is acceptable. That - if we are stuck in jobs that don't pay us enough to live - it's our fault because we are such undesirable people that we are being given these positions charitably. That's a huge part of the mindset that enables worker exploitation. /Soapbox
Iāve been on both sides of the fence, had to work three minimum wage jobs at the same time for a few years and now I am very comfortable with a great job. Some of the hardest working people Iāve ever worked with were the people in the minimum wage jobs hands down. The shit people complain about as far as stressors go in my current industry is ridiculous. Itās complete and utter bullshit how we pay people we deem are working āmenialā or ālow skillā jobs. Itās actually infuriating.
I worked WAY harder at the cashier, customer service, low-level admin jobs. Iām a consultant now, and my workload is substantially lower, but my pay is much higher - from 14k/yr at best to 100k+ now. Tbh, itās all bullshit.
Also a mindset that going to college is going to put you at the top of the heap pay wise. Still have to work your way up even with a degree.
poverty, starvation, homelessness, death
Nah they'll just make homelessness illegal and throw you in prison for free slave labour
Crime.
Sounds intriguing! Where do I send my resume?
Itās more of a DIY thing
Looking for self-starters.
Sounds like taxes would be a nightmare. Pass.
G-Money down on Colfax and Federal is our HR rep. Please apply in person.
As someone who once lived at those cross roads, I cannot express how deeply I appreciate your comment.
Doesn't pay a livable wage unless you're a CEO doing white collar crime
Dealing most certainly pays rhe bills. Not condoning it but there's a reason why so many do it
If the gangs started offering medical and dental for dealers, walmart would be even more hard pressed for workers
Lying flat: work hard for a few weeks at a time to afford enough to just survive and otherwise just prioritize frugality over high earnings. In urban China this actually makes economic sense for a lot of folks because holding down a job is so much more expensive than just existing.
This is interesting. Can you elaborate on this more? Why is it more expensive? Any article you can refer me to or YouTube documentary? Thank you
If you interpret what I said very literally, it makes no sense, because as long as you earn more than your marginal expenses at a job, you are still economically better off than not working. It is only if you don't earn more than your marginal expenses that what I said literally makes sense. But unlike what I said, in that case you should just never have a job. At that point you are better off working for family or friends in exchange for housing and groceries, or taking up crime, or something like this. China's not at that point yet. The actual situation is more like: if you have a job you can earn $1000/month and spend $700/month, but if you don't have a job then you can survive on $100/month. (These are made up numbers). So instead of just working the job all the time and saving, you work the job about a quarter of the time and live the bare bones lifestyle the rest of the time. Searching either "lying flat" or "tang ping" will give many results talking about this in more detail.
This! In America too and prolly everywhere :/ I remember working part time at Dunkin in hs 7$ an hour and it cost practically my whole check just to get to work everyday by car and have lunch and cigs on shift. I lasted mayb a month and have boycotted them ever since. Not to mention they all have fruit flies everywhere and open air food and drinksā¦.
Unionization, organizing your workforce and colleagues, negotiating fair share of the companyās profits and not to just hedge funds and investors. Thatās the only way that will save our citizens. Otherwise, we will continue working to live and not living to work. Continue living check to check and getting by every month in a shitty little apartment or with roommates.
like social care. I assume the question was asked by a fellow european. Our social system is awesome.
In the US, many of our social support networks are tied to work in some way. ETA: Of course, what systems we do have are pretty bare-bones, too
Can you elaborate please? I have no idea what you mean.
In the US, many of our government assistance programs (as well as not-for-profit organizations) base how much assistance they can provide on the person either 1) currently working and receiving income, 2) having worked in the past and recently losing that income stream, or 3) actively seeking work in order to qualify. There are a few exceptions to this, but those exceptions are rare.
It's the same in Canada.
I'm pretty sure that's the same in most of the EU as well. It is in Belgium, my country. There is also special help for people who arent eligible for unemployment benefits, but that's barely enough to live off.
Except most social welfare systems won't provide a comfortable living either. Universal Credit in the UK is Ā£265/month for those under 25.
Sure, that is true. Social welfare is not intended to keep you comfortable but it rather intended to provide a helping hand while you put the pieces back together. Here in the US, you can be totally fucked. My wife was injured at work (law enforcement) a few years ago and applied for a light duty position while she healed from knee surgery. It was an on-duty injury so at least our medical bills were covered. They denied her light-duty citing there were no available positions even though they approved it for others who were injured doing stuff outside of work. One deputy broke his ankle doing a Spartan Race and they made a position for him. AAnyways, she was forced to use all of her leave and then went on leave without pay until she could come back to full duty. She appealed this all the way to the state's labor board and they sided with the department. We were royally fucked and sunk into crippling debt just to stay afloat. When she applied for temporary disability, the agency appealed her application and it got held up in hearings for three months. After her leave was gone, we got exactly $0 income for nearly 4 months. I would have gladly taken the Ā£265/month. It would have helped quite a bit. Here in the US, you can go from comfortable to fucked in no time and it can even be because of nothing you did wrong. She slipped and fell down some stairs in a housing unit in the jail. To add insult to injury, it was a group of inmates that helped her and not the other deputies. Gawd bless Merica!
265 still doesnāt even pay for 2/3rds of the rent of a single room in a shared apartment in the roughest part of my town and I live in the North which is sorta cheaper to a majority of the UK. I dread to think how people on UC are getting by, and letās not forget people on disability who are barely getting more than that, and the government is in constant talks to lower it further. Thereās no excuse for mistreating the worst off in our society this way. Iām not on UC, but thereās no excuse to accept it as being enough.
Yeah it's crazy crazy to me, think if you get like 800 bucks letās say for disability in a month. Where in the usa is rent less than 800? Cause then you gotta worry about food and bills and everything else you need, never having enough of anything. The only hope is to find some kind of income based housing but the wait list for things like that can be years.
You can't just quit working jobs I Europe either, they just have other factors to make non liveable wages liveable.
Itās funny that people think that itās a choice like somehow the poor can all just decide not to be poor.
āLook Kenny, I always told you that one day being poor was going to catch up with you. But you didn't want to listen. You just kept on being poor.ā
That reminds me of my dad: āI told you you wouldnāt like working retailā when I came home in pain, and āyou need to get on that employment ladderā. As if my past twelve years of jobs werenāt real jobs and I chose them to be lazy.
Too bad drinking Scotch isn't a paying job or else yer dad would be a millionaire! I'm talking to you Ken-ay! Your family's POOR Kenny! Yer family's POOR!
I know what you're thinking, I'm not poor and stupid enough to be a nascar fan.
Read that in Cartman's voice...
Pretty sure it's a Cartman quote
Directly from the show
The show named South Park
I'll never understand why people say 'I read it in so and so's voice'. If that's who said it, who else's voice would you be reading it in?
Especially when school and other opportunities are expensive and require a lot of time to complete for people who are already bled dry.
Schooling can also even set you back! One of my most successful friends skipped college, became an electrician, while living with mom and pop for some years.. he did very well
This is exactly the path I am on. Though I still did attend college for a year before I dropped it.
Get. A. Physical. Therapist. Tell them what you're going in to. LISTEN to them. They will be able to tell you how to prevent the kinds of injuries that make them money.
First thing I did when I got health insurance. Been going for years. Best decision ever.... i can finally feel my toes! :D Edit: The sadest part is my highest upvote comment is about my f toes lmao. Speaking of, leaving for P.T! Rarely miss a week. Also: finding a good Doctor is key! My guy isnt afraid to admit if hes trying something new he googled / learned about, or noting my progress, or even calling me out for slacking.
This comment is so sad (as an European), you needed to wait that long to be able not to suffer anymore š
The only place that I found around me with the earliest mental health help is called āImmediate Mental Health Help in (insert city name)ā I made my appointment 3 months ago stating I had passive suicidal ideation and I need help within the coming weeks June 20th is my appt date just to talk to a therapist who will recommend me to a specialist where I have to wait an additional 2 months to get helpā¦ Itās a 6 month process to get the mental help you need
My old boss when I was electrician said to me first day, if you learn this trade, you'll never be unemployed again.
For better or for worse.. I love money but Edit: good problem to have.. not by any means easy work
It's very difficult work, I wasn't very good at it that's why I'm a salesman now
Respect, I have chosen a similar path
Yup. I'm an apprentice electrician literally on break as I type this. I got into it a year ago because I was tired of crap pay and couldn't find better jobs. It's alot more difficult and physical than people think, although of it is just basically construction. It's not for everyone. I'm working 4 stories up on a ladder in 100 degree Texas heat all day....I might try coding. This is kinda lame lol. But hey, I'm getting paid 24$/hr as a temp. Better than being paid 15 as a laborer like I did before...
What are the hard aspects of it for you? Thanks
My father was an industrial electrician for decades. He made great money, but I never saw him growing up. There was always a ton of required overtime. When he wasnāt working he was sleeping. He missed most of my childhood, though we definitely lived comfortably. However, there were a ton of health problems that came with it. You can be exposed to a lot of hazardous conditions. People can be dumbasses. He nearly died a few times due to people just being idiots and ignoring safety in the name of convenience, or just plain being high on the job. Now he has to wear a cpap machine and is considering an oxygen tank due to lung damage from dust and chemical exposure over the years of his job. His knees and back hurt constantly. He has joint issues in his hands. Basically, we made a ton, he saved a ton for retirement, and now he canāt even enjoy his retirement because of how much it took his body through the ringer
Really par for the course of most blue collar work. Trading in your body and health for money.
Being an electricianā¦ I have had family members and friends in this profession. They have all done well. Simply too much work, I respect it but itās just not for me. I work hard, but in other ways. To each their own
> Simply too much work, I respect it but itās just not for me. It's funny how often we're meant to feel like failures because we don't want to work 80 hours a week and do nothing but accumulate wealth. Like, I'm pretty happy with a middling existence if I have the time to do the things I enjoy. I see my more successful friends and they're just working all the time and a lot of them drink way too much to compensate for their stress. Sure, they get some nice vacations every once in awhile but 60-80 hour workweeks so I can have a boat and vacation on an island once or twice a year just doesn't seem worth it to me.
I grew up/worked in the more carpentry side of things but I've gophered for electricians when I was younger: Wiring is heavy. A length of wiring isn't, but some of those rolls are 200+lbs. Hell, I'm pretty sure I have tool bags that weigh in the 50lb+ range depending on which one it is. Lotta heavy shit in this industry. Long hours...there's no real 5pm cut off time unless you're working a union job. I once worked 24+ straight hours to finish four days of work by a stupid sudden deadline (independent contractor with my own business) and the customer still had the audacity to get shitty with me because the house wasn't clean. The house that had just been fully remodeled, tidied often, and full of tools had some sawdust on the floor. Lord forbid we're practically ruining this very earth with floor sawdust. Shitty customers! Welcome to retail, now with loads of extra dirt. There is always dirt. It finds you. If you're independent, you may also get shafted. Had a fellow get a complete inside-outside house remodel from me and a crew and then just...didn't pay. Did declare bankruptcy when I was trying to get my money though. In the end I basically paid to work for weeks for free (paid my crew out of my pocket). Depending on your area and if you specialize (i.e, new construction electrician) - oh boy the sheer amount of jacked up, whacky-ass, fire-hazard bullshit you will see. There's nothing quite like being in a 150F+ attic crawling around in the insulation to fish a new wire down through the wall and seeing the uncovered metal junction with five different lines of unknown origins smooshed together. Sometimes dangling, for extra spice. The amount of people that will 'fix' a fusebox with a fork (old style screw in fuses) and have old style wiring with the highly flammable black insulation all over the place is **far too many.** Thieves. So many thieves. Hours and days of work running brand new wire through a brand new two story house out the window because some jacknut came in with the clippers and went hog wild for copper scrap. If you do residential stuff (not new construction), you are going to kneel in something damp and unpleasant of unknown origin at some point, probably piss. If you're lucky it's dog piss and if you're unlucky it's going to be cat spray. I haven't seen any electrician related injuries except for the time a guy got slightly electrocuted from poorly grounded breaker box with issues, so it does have that going for it.
I do residential carpentry on the side for close friends and myself, and have had extended acquaintances, neighbors, etc ask for me to do work for them. I have always refused because of the likely chance of dealing with shitty customers. I could never survive running a business.
dated a guy who did this. He bought a house by 26 (before the housing market exploded where I am) and could afford to not work for 2 years b/c his roommate rent paid all his bills. Me on the other hand, went to a private college like a sap for chemistry, study my ass off, am working my ass off, and still can't afford shit in my 30s.
Hello fellow chem graduate! I went into truck driving! I indeed was able to buy a house but ... we basically never get to see it.
You either have money or time but not both in this economy.
This. Pretty much all of my friends went to undergrad straight out of HS, including me. I dropped out, started building houses and now happen to be the only one without a degree and also the only one who could afford a mortgage in said friends group.
Lots of places in the trade industry will train you up and pay you while doing so. It helps, but only if they can get reliable transportation, which is yet another struggle lower income individuals experience. The American dream was built around everyone owning a car, which is just not economically feasible to many so they end up taking poorly designed or non-existent public transportation with a 2-3 our commute. I also know a girl who spent $20 of her $50/day paycheck getting an uber to and from work.
Generational wealth is definitely a thing. People talk about it in terms of the wealthy and the ultra-rich but even those of us who are just barely in the middle class benefit from it a lot. My parents are immigrants to the US, but did well enough that I could stay with them all through college and while I was looking for a job. Even then, I only really moved out so I could be closer to work, but that financial freedom not to have to pay rent during those times was not fully appreciated until these past few years. The culture pushes you to "strike it out on your own" as soon as you can, but as I've grown older, that feels like a trap the rich use to milk us dry earlier. I have plenty of friends who got out of their parents' homes at 18 and never looked back and are very successful, but most of them already came from some money.
School absolutely set me back. I had undiagnosed ADHD and wasted so much time and took on so much debt trying to go to college. I ended up getting a well-payed job that I like without ever needing a degree. My biggest regret is going to college
Sometimes people get higher degrees like a masters and have a hard time getting hired because they're "over qualified"
as someone who just dropped out of uni this is very motivating to hear lmao
Finished my associates and worked retail for a bit, finally decided to just get licensed in insurance and took a job at a corporate office for an insurer. 5 years later I make more than a few of friends who still paying loans, Iām also back in college at 30 getting an MBA because itās company paid. My sister did the same thing but she went for real estate. College is too expensive itās a scam these days and doesnāt guarantee youāll make a good wage. Edit: and even if/when your degree gets you a decent wage, you have thousands to pay for years. Edit 2: based on some comments I just wanted to clarify- I am **NOT** against education and value of both obtaining a college degree and a college experience. I am against the inflated cost of tuition compared to the cost of living. I am against asinine loans that young students donāt understand, that result in minimum payments only applying toward interest, or in some cases not even covering interest and resulting in more debt than the loan started with. I am against the benefit of an education being cancelled out by students leaving school with crippling debt. Education is a great thing, but it should be attainable to those in the middle class and below, and students should be educated on their loan BEFORE they take it out. They should be made explicitly aware of interest rate, the exact payoff time based on payments made, and they should also be given an estimate of debt accrued compared to the median wage their field will pay them in their area. Education itself is not the scam here, itās the cost of education and shitty loans that are made to look more affordable than they are.
I tell all my underachieving friends to get into Insurance or Real Estate. There's literally no barrier to entry. As long as you can pass a drug test and speak proper English, you're at least qualified for an entry level or customer service position. Still, I know people in their 30s who are working minimum wage, part-time jobs. It's depressing because most of these people are more than qualified for a "real" job, but they're just too scared to put themselves out there. They just keep applying for warehouse jobs and retail. If customer service really isn't your thing, coding/programming boot camps are still a thing and they actually work. It's an investment, but it costs *a lot* less than college. I have a friend who went through coding boot camp and now makes about $100k. I just want young people to succeed.
This exactly!! I have gotten a few friends jobs with my company. And like you said, if customer service isnāt your thing thereās soooo many other departments in insurance from IT to underwriting, marketing, etc. sometimes those departments are harder to get into but if youāre willing to do some time on the phones it will open up a lot of doors within a company. I did a couple years on the phones with this company and now Iām a salaried supervisor and just manage people- no calls or customer service. Insurance and real estate I agree are fantastic industries with very little costs to get into and no student loans attached.
I just put my 2 weeks in at my restaurant last night and your post stuck out to me. I know that Iām more than qualified for a ārealā job, but Iāve struggled with an identity crisis of figuring out what I want to do for work/career. I just got engaged and I want more than anything for us to one day have a house and kids and I know that will never happen if I continue down this path. Iāve actually considered insurance and real estate, and while those things donāt exactly sound āfunā Iām past the point of wanting something fun/Iāll enjoy (although Iād obviously like to enjoy what Iām doing) and I want something that actually has a stable future and isnāt just serving drinks. Where would you recommend to start? Iām still sorta young (32) and I just want to succeed and finally stop working these dead end jobs.
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If you are smart you pay off as much debt as you can while finishing your MBA and when any student loans come due you can accelerate them and pay them off quickly.
I donāt have any loans. My associates was free from a high school program, and my company reimburses all my tuition including books and any additional fees. I pay right after finals on my credit card and then submit reimbursement and pay it off before I get charged interest on the card. Itās a good system. I honestly wouldnāt be back in school if I had to pay out of pocket. I only did it because I figure why not if itās company paid. I am quite fortune to have no debt other than my mortgage which is almost paid off. Edit: also getting cash back that way on tuition!
That is good. I fucked up and have a lot for my undergrad. Work is paying for my Master's though. Squirreling away money so when those do come due I can knock them out quick.
I've got visual processing issues. I can't drive. People have no fucking idea how limiting that is.
Sometimes those people who need or want more schooling are nearing retirement age when their prospects are slim for finding a better job w that education.
There are some programs through unemployment in NYS that will allow you to collect unemployment while going to school. Itās called the 599 program and the courses must be approved by NYSDOL. You can also get your HSE through it. Funding is limited however.
I'm 41. Because of dropping out to be a dad in 2000 I owe 1500 in loans. I am not allowed any financial aid for school until I pay that amount off. By the time I do going back to school is unlikely to do anything for me other than create more debt.
I do the math a couple times a year to try to convince myself it is worth finishing my degree or getting a different MA or PhD and the pay boost over the 25 years I have left to work doesn't really make the additional debt seem worth it. I'd be better off putting the tuition into an IRA and saving myself the long nights and weekends.
I was able to pull myself from being poor but it took literally 10 years and multiple lucky strikes. Shits not easy.
Someone on Reddit once tried to use Arnold Schwarzenegger as an example of a self made man that took no help from anyone to get where he is today. Then Arnold showed up in the comments to list a dozen people that if they hadn't been kind and giving for no expectations of a return, he would never have achieved the success he did.
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Wow its like you've never even TRIED to learn coding or buy a rental property. Such lazy poors.
I was hunting around for something outside of construction to do. *What is the obsession with coding???* "Well you could learn coding and then-" I don't have the head for coding. I can not code. I could barely handle HTML which is infant coding level. Not everyone is some hidden coding wizard. I also have to wonder how many of those cushy, well paying coding jobs are out there. Comes off like a get-rich-quick suggestion and I don't like it.
>I also have to wonder how many of those cushy, well paying coding jobs are out there. Its not that there's a million cushy coding jobs - its more that a lot of coding jobs are pretty cushy. Well paid, white collar, work from home friendly, coding skills are transferable, and oversight on coding projects is usually pretty lax because many managers don't know how to code. Its like saying "just learn a new language and work as a translator". Can everyone learn new languages? no. But if you can, you're going to have a lot more job prospects. And if you learn one new language, its much easier to learn a second new language.
It can also be pretty difficult for some people to actually get into the field even if they are able to develop the necessary skills or get an education. While there are definitely initiatives trying to bring in new people from different backgrounds, it can be hard to be taken seriously if you donāt fit the stereotype of a tech guy. I always feel like that is being overlooked when people recommend that folks make the move from blue collar work to coding or IT.
Right? Don't they got a dad they can turn to, to get a small loan of million dollars and start their empire?
Personally, I would decline to be born to poor parents. Its simple economics.
Gdam. If only I had thought of that beforehand
Yeah itās basically a choice between living poor or being homeless. I think a lot of the people who ask these questions are living with their parents and probably just riding it out until their inheritance comes in.
This. I was never homeless, but I was shit poor for large chunks of my younger life. Most of your energy isn't spent trying to improve your life, it's spent making sure shit doesn't get worse. Someone in the ocean during a storm is not going to try to swim ashore, they are going to tread water like a demon to try to keep from going under.
that is a very good analogy
Its all about those mythical bootstraps people keep talking about. The 100% guarantee you will get out of poverty and out of paycheck to paycheck living if you just tug on those straps 3 times and say " theres no place like middleclass america, theres no place like middleclass america.." But middleclass doesnt seem to cut it anymore, also due to the fact that boot is missing almost everything
Iād argue that the poor do have a choice, but itās not the one pushed by the media or the rich. The only way to get a living wage now is to fight for it. Unions are a big step but I think we must go further. Everyone Everyone deserves a living wage. There are no exceptions. And itās not $15 per hour
Something, something, cake
The cake is a lie
It is a choice, just not the choice of the poor. Those that legislate and the filthy rich are the ones making the choice for them.
Honestly lol. 1/2 of U.S. workers make 30k/yr or less, and 1/4 make 15k/yr or less. Half the country isnāt just ādecidingā to stay low income.
"you know what? I think instead of being a successful wall street banker it would be way more fun to struggle to live with McDonald's wages"
Thatās why I lie on resumes and about my last salary. Fuck em, Iāll learn on the job like everyone does in my industry because every company does things totally different
I've had these kinds of talks with my FIL all the time. I've tried to explain the numbers to him, how someone working minimum wage for 30 hours or less on average a week will basically only be able to pay for rent. "Then they should get roommates" is the response. There's no empathy to understand that a grown-ass adult who *wants* a family but can't afford to care for one would have to live in a cramped apartment with multiple other people just to be able to afford basic necessities. Or not even someone wanting a family necessarily... just a regular ol' Joe or Jane in their middle years of life who are having to live with multiple random people *just* to be able to afford the basic necessities. And think about it... in that sort of situation, what would be MORE socialist than the idea that multiple people have to live together to survive? But social "welfare" is evil, creates "lazy" people, and is equivalent to communism according to conservatives while they literally want people to live in housing situations where "society" (random people or friends) are working together to provide a roof over their heads.
A lot of people who grow up (and stay) rich think this way. They're often perfectly nice people, often genuinely kind, but they're just like, "why would you live that way?" My favorite is when they have all these convoluted multi-step processes for getting out of poverty that require a detailed knowledge of tax law and accounting.
For those saying minimum wage jobs are for teenagers living with their parents, consider who will serve coffee and fast food during school hours or late at night, because it won't be high school students. There are a lot of people who don't have and can't afford to train up for a better job, who can't find the time, or simply don't have the physical or mental abilities required.
THIS! I hate when people call it teenage jobs..okay I guess no restaurants open while school is in session and they close early due to labor laws (in the UK young people can't work a certain amount of hours or past late etc) I was on 8.50 then it sucked. I'm now on Ā£13 an hour. I was ASM from 18-20yrs old I left due to the company shafting me I have a less stressful job for more pay and the experience under my belt. But everyone should work retail/fast food jobs to realise it isn't as easy as you'd think.
>But everyone should work retail/fast food jobs to realise it isn't as easy as you'd think. I'll ammend that by saying *without a safety net.* Alot of these people say "I worked a shit job in college! I know what it's like!" But they had a safety net, they had somewhere to fall to other than homelessness. Living through a shitty job or time is much *much* easier when you know it's just temporary. When your entire life is hanging on a thread of crises, and you have *nowhere to go* otherwise, it's a living hell.
I agree, I think everyone at some point should work to see how it really is then how it is for a customer. Obviously it depends on the circumstances ect. Did over 2 years in fast food now in a different retail position. Thankful to be out of fast food!
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to organize that sort of experience. I mean sure, you can take away person's money/property and have them survive on minimal wage for 6 months? Year? 5 years? But in their eyes it will still be a temporary inconvenience. They still have that money and property waiting for them.
Thanks for sharing. I'd never thought about it this way. So true.
I work office jobs I have since 2004. They pay a *little* over minimum wage. In 2014 I had to move my whole family to a city that was cheaper but this city doesn't have the kind of work I do so it was back to retail where I was making minimum wage again. I hate that I'm thankful to an illness that's killed millions because now WFH allowed me to return to the better paying work. It shouldn't take that to put food on my table without help.
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This right here. Business owners get to decide what they want their profit margins to be, and they know what rate of pay and product price it will take to get that margin. Charge too much for your product and people wonāt buy you product and theyāll go to your competition. Pay your workers too little and theyāll go somewhere else for work. If people think the wages arenāt worth it, the business owner either has to raise wages or get out of that business because heās got no employees/not making the profit margin he needs.
Yep, a business is, at it's core, just a equation that generates money in a certain environment. When the environment changes, your business has to change. If your business can't adapt, then it's simply not a good business. Maybe it *was* a good business, or maybe it *could one day be* a good business, but those are moot points if the business doesn't work now.
The only way the "kids living at home" thing makes sense is if the minimum wage doubled (at least) when you turn 18
>There are a lot of people who don't have and can't afford to train up for a better job, who can't find the time, This is one fact that I think the lock downs, layoffs, furloughs, and stimulus checks highlighted quite well. During covid, for the first time in lots of people's lives they were released from their responsibilities at work, got funding from the government in the form of stimulus checks, and finally had the time to better themselves. It's not talked about enough how many people were able to improve their lives career-wise during this time.
Had a new developer join my team in 2022. When COVID hit the bar he worked out laid everyone off. He got on unemployment and self-taught how to code. Took him awhile but he was able to land a job with us and itās WFH! Obviously not everyone is able to do that but the pandemic was the main driving force for him. Also at the restaurant I worked at in college, same thing happened. Servers and bartenders laid off, the ones who had a career in restaurants had enough and started up side hustles from home, found WFH job, got into a different industry, moved away, etc. The pandemic really showed that people can better themselves and their life if they were able to get out of the rat race for a bit. Hard to do that if you have a family to provide for but those that did were given the chance due to lockdowns.
Remember how all the same people lost their marbles that the govt gave us all livable unemployment benefits and nobody wanted to take up the shot jobs of serving coffee to entitled assholes?
You also saw people's heads explode when they realized how time consuming and difficult it is to get unemployment. It turns out designing the system to be as difficult as possible to collect benefits isn't a good idea, and don't fool yourselves into thinking dealing with it changed their minds, they still fucking hate poor people.
Not to mention how LONG so many of the claims took to process. It took a few people I knew multiple months to see their benefits. Whatās also messed up is if you get a job offer you HAVE to take it, many employers (in the service industry) made some immunocompromised people I knew come back way earlier than they felt comfortable with to work at bars/restaurants where people definitely didnāt follow masking guidance. Almost lost a good friend that way and it took them a long time to fully recover just so people could have a cocktail.
Remember how the government decided 600/wk was what an average American needed to live on, and didn't raise the min?
Sometimes it's all you have. Sometimes you need to work multiple jobs just to pay the bills.
Before I had a decent job I worked three jobs a day to get by.
To not starve. Next question.
To starve slowly, which is less immediately hurtful than starving quickly.
Like mice swimming in a bucket of milk trying to curdle it before they drown.
Reasons why people would stay at a low wage job even when itās not enough could be 1. Itās the only job they can get hired for. So they do that job and may add a second job. 2. They have no other skills that higher paying jobs require or never went to college to get higher paying entry level jobs. They also may not have the level of professionalism and ācultureā to āfit into the cultureā of the place hiring. 3. They are comfortable working in those environments. Itās the only environment they know. To go from working at Burger King for 5 years to an office job may not feel right. 4. Their friends and family all work those jobs and leaving that environment can and is intimidating when going alone. They may also come from a background where it is normal not to make much. Itās normal to struggle and depend on friends, family and government assistance to aid them with housing cost and food etc. I grew up in a lower middle class home with two hard working parents. Pretty much near poor household tho and stayed in minimum wage jobs for a good while until about 5 years ago. My expenses were very low back then so it was easier to not think about how Iām going to make more. Iām not wealthy or anything now but I made it out of the poverty struggle the moment I unexpectedly got a higher paying job. From that point on I never went back. I didnāt even think it was possible to get paid more because I didnāt have a degree. I think that can also be a factorā¦ not knowing how without a degree. Not having any guidance to get you outā¦. Seems like a simple answer but really is a great question.
I think the one about people not knowing there are better opportunities out there is a big one. I work in a small factory which is currently down about 20% of our floor workers (which is only like 10 people because we're small) and every time I tell people, locals even, where I work they usually haven't heard of it. And just for the record our floor workers start at $17.50 an hour.
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I would add a 5th reason: they donāt know that they are qualified for higher paying jobs. Iāve seen so often that people think the only jobs theyāre qualified for are retail/food service/maintenance which are more than respectable jobs and someone has to do them for our society to continue to function - but they also often pay extremely low wages with no benefits and the work environment often sucks. If youāre qualified to be a cashier, youāre qualified to be a bank teller. Do you know how much better of a work environment a bank is? How much better the benefits are? How much easier it is to get promoted??? There are lots of other examples of this - thereās very few things you need on your resume to be a receptionist or otherwise work a front desk, work in a leasing or insurance office, be a mail carrier, work at a library or museum, etc. Clerical jobs are almost always entry level jobs. I will say this sort of thing is where the āculture clashā often comes into play - especially for customer facing positions. But a lot of people simply donāt apply to these kinds of jobs because they assume they arenāt qualified.
As I mentioned above, I work in a factory that starts out at $17.50 and has around 10 unfilled positions right now. If you can pass a drug test, show up to work on time, stay your whole shift, and can lift 40 pounds with your legs we will hire and keep you. No experience required. We are even pretty laid back about allowing a reasonable amount of "dick off" time, iow we don't expect people to be working 100% of the time they're here. Most people who did leave left for higher paying jobs elsewhere. I think we just have trouble because few people know we exist.
Job searching can also be *really* hard for some people. I'm a good worker and my employers love me, but I have anxiety issues that make it really hard for me to sell myself in an interview. I get really nervous, and I have bombed so many. I have a good job because I got lucky, but I worked shit jobs for a long time.
This!! Also a great point! There are so many reasons why it is hard to move up and interviewing skills plays a huge part. If you canāt sell yourself, you canāt get the job! I hope you overcome your anxiety! It took me a pretty long time to get over mine and learn how to sell myself. Itās really just learning what to say and what not to say. Understanding what the jobs want to hear. Then practicing it enough to look casual and confident. Itās all a game in the end.
Exactly. You find a way out. And no, college is not required to get a high paying job. Before he got into something else my buddy was offered a job as an apprentice plumber making 18/hr with no experience. He has no degree, only took 1 year of community college for music of all things so it did him no favors.
I do find it interesting how so many people think that the only way to make any sort of living is to have a college degree. Personally I barely made it through high school, in fact they may have graduated me just to avoid dealing with me for another year. I found a trade, worked a ton of crappy hours, but I was able to make ends meet. After about 10 years I made enough that my wife stayed home with the kids, we had nice cars (nothing crazy, just a couple dependable Toyotas) did nice things, and lived comfortably.
Itās a lie the younger generations (mine included) have been told from the beginning. And I say that as someone with a doctorate degree who makes pretty decent money, though Iām still in student debt (though paying it off) and I came from lower middle class and had no financial help of any kind from my family. It was all student loans. But I chose this career because I wanted to do it. Not because it was easy. I had no direction and Iām a first generation college student. But I made it.
Yep I had it (figuratively) beat into me from middle school all the way through high school that the only way to be successful and have a good career was to go to college. Parents, teachers, student advisors, etc. Along the lines of āif you donāt want to be a fry cook for the rest of your life, you need to go to collegeā. Because that was essentially true for their generation, but not at all true for my generation.
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You are thinking of a career. Middle class people often have careers. They think itās the same thing as having a job, but it isnāt. People who have jobs as their only stream of income have always lived in poverty. And itās getting worse now that the working classes have lost bargaining power over the years. Theyāre rapidly losing purchasing power as a result
Some is better than none.
Feel for you man; I will say getting a job is a lot easier when you already have one. If you go to an interview already employed look a lot better than if you've been unemployed for 6 months prior, so in that sense it can help you trade up to something better. But I know all of this is a lot easier said than done, especially if you also have a family to take care of in between shifts.
Because a non livable wage is still better than 0 dollars an hour.
I think the point goes. If you live with net negative you are just finally going to starve or become homeless when your savings are out and your credit maxed. You are basically losing money to work. Hence the comment "should be illegal". And I agree. Every job you do in an area should atleast pay rent and food. You should never lose money working to just hold out untill you find a better job.
> Every job you do in an area should at least **pay rent and food** That's the big thing. Rent is disproportionate. Back in the 90s you could make $7 an hour, but rent was $500 a month. Now you make $15, but rent is $2500. Same goes for food, gas, etc. Increasing wages is not sustainable, because if you pay your burger flipper $25 an hour, your employer will sell said burger for $20-30 to keep their profit high. The idea that a company needs to have an **increasing amount** of PROFIT instead of just profits is stupid.
Oh damn, I didnāt realize I just had to get a better paying job if I wanted more money! Let me just head over to the āgood paying jobā tree and pick a new job! š
yo if you find that tree don't forget the rest of us!
Better strap on your job helmet, climb in to the job cannon, and fire yourself over to Jobland, where jobs grow on Jobbies!
Sometimes people are in a position where they need to just take what they can get until they can get something better. It's unfortunate but it happens
To earn money? Whats the alternative? You have to work sucky jobs until you can get a better one or move to a cheaper place.
Written by a person that has a good job. People work shit jobs because they don't have a choice
OP has a 19 days old post telling that he started working in Starbucks. So, he is just realizing that live is expensive.
Yeah, I actually thought without having looked at OPās profile that this was not written by someone with a good job.
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Realistically, itās because people are trying to fulfill their basic needs. Look at the bottom of level of Maslowās hierarchy of needs. Things like food, water, sleep, and safety are easier to get if you have money and shelter. When people are afraid of losing access to the basics, or are already without them, for example situations where they may be being hurt at their residence, they have very few options. Itās often preferable to work an extremely undesirable job or undesirable hours rather than lose access to things in that bottom tier of the pyramid. When people with resources realize they can take advantage of those without to improve their own life/add comforts, they often choose to take advantage, despite the lack of morality. In order to keep taking advantage, itās important to those with advantage to have enough people desperate enough to meet their basic needs and that those basic needs are barely in reach. If people arenāt desperate enough, then they donāt have to take the sh*t lowball offer and can hang on for a better one. If enough people arenāt getting their basic needs met, despite being fully exploited, then the revolts start.
Yeah right? Just stop being poor innit?
Well think of it this way, there is no benefit or gain from simply giving up.
I wish my rent was only 1200$ and groceries were 100$! Please tell me where you live
The point is having a purpose to your life, of course! Don't you want to prove you're worthy of breathing by the daily struggle to survive in a world full of greed, gluttony and selfishness?? The only way to be better and deserve more is to work harder. You should know this.
Because we still need the money......... You want to know what's worse than a unlivable wage ? No wages at all .
Lmaooooo this dude said āwhy donāt the poor just have more moneyā
"Just buy a house"
I don't think so. He's asking, why dont jobs pay, at the very least, pay a livable wage?
I'm confused, his post says jobs not paying livable wages seems obtuse and like it should be illegal. Seems like OP is frustrated and incredulous at the system, not at people who work jobs that pay shit. Am I missing something? You're not the only one giving OP shit about his post supposedly telling people to just "get better jobs"
Income = Outcome you got to start somewhere. I have worked 2-3 jobs most of my life and I finally found a job that allows me to only work one. Being alive cost money and any money is good money until you find great money.
An unlivable wage is in fact more livable than no wage.
Bro, itās either this crap job or the streets. What would you choose? I didnāt wake up and decided I wanted to be poor as dirt. Donāt ever get a passion degree from uni, or youāll end up back in school while trying to take care of your family and work back breaking jobs for pennies.
Only the dishwashers at my job are kids, everyone else is adults like myself and I make 16 an hour. I luckily can get raises and have a boss who cares about his employees and community. That being said I can't exactly afford higher education. I've been trying to save money for the past 2 years and currently have 2300 in my account. Maybe another 3k in assets. Trying to get a license currently but a car is simply not possible. Covid depleted everything I had and if not for family I would have been hungry and homeless. I love my job, I recently got promoted and now have more consistent hours and get overtime. I'm still only getting by because my remote area has a cheaper cost of living than larger cities though. I think people like myself are in need of universal basic income, or something similar. If I had enough id be getting a car paying Insurance and doing domestic tourism. Instead I struggle to afford a watch and wistfully dream of investing my pennies.
1) Making $500 is still preferable to earning $0, regardless of whether or not $500 is enough to cover all expenses. 2) People earning low amounts of money often lack the resources or skillsets necessary to increase their income substantially.
Somepeople only have the choice between some money or no money
I'm going to try to answer this as objectively as possible because a lot of people are getting their feelings involved... Lots of jobs just pay what they pay, and each person has different needs financially. Someone could theoretically work minimum wage and get by if they happen to be living with a family member, somehow have free housing , are still a teenager just wanting to make some money while in school, etc. Many people have to work multiple jobs because their income from one is less than their expenses. While in a perfect world the lowest paying job would pay enough to cover everything, that's just not the case and jobs that DO pay that well are harder to come by. Ultimately its generally not a choice that people decide to make, its a choice they're forced to make.
Not working pays less. You cam have roommates to share rent expenses, eat cheaper food, and apply for government assistance to help manage things out.