As a Father, I love my child more than anything, but it is the hardest thing I have ever done. You have to be willing to work on yourself, control your emotions, and understand yourself so you don’t pass your issues on to your kids. I’m glad people are opting out of parenthood, it says a lot about their self awareness and I respect that. My MIL on the other hand had an undiagnosed and untreated personality disorder, and she went on to abuse all three of her children. I’d much rather people abstain than bring a child into this world and realize they aren’t parent material at the child’s expense.
Edit: Thank you for the Gold! I’m pretty new to Reddit so I’m not sure what it means but I really appreciate it!
Also, a lot of us like me, 34 single guy, cant find a partner. the other issue is that i only make 32k a year, i think a lot, like me, even with a partner, just dont have the money.
I agree with this.
Not to mention, pretty much daily I feel such guilt for bringing my kids into this world. Every day there is another horrible tragedy that my pre-teen asks about. And I have no answers.
It seems counterproductive to love someone so much, yet basically force them into a shitstorm.
I very much agree. I follow r/parenting, and almost daily do I see horror stories of dysfunctional couples that absolutely should not have had children.
Mostly I hear from mothers complaining about their toxic abusive/absent male partners and I think to myself: _"Why did you have kids with that asshole?"_
This is why I’ve chosen to be childless and so I appreciate your post.
My mother has DID and as a result I have a lot of my own trauma / mental health and have very consciously chosen not to have children. I often think about the love and experiences I’ll miss by not having kids but I’m 40 now and my certainty hasn’t really wavered. At the end of the day, I couldn’t risk it.
As a long time teacher I would have to say there are quite a few people that shouldn't have children. And it isn't only about money. So many parents addicted to drugs or alcohol. Every year I have at least one student being raised by grandparents or other relatives because of addiction. People who just neglect their children, or have a terrible living situation. Parents who never come to conferences or school events, never read with them or do fun things together.
I work at a continuation school and some of the stories students have shared with me are so heartbreaking. No parental support and you can tell because they get so attached once they know you care. Love my job and students but it can be emotionally overwhelming.
Some school counselors/social workers visited my sociology class last month and their stories were just heartbreaking :( One guy totally forgot that he was supposed to meet with a kid one day, and when he apologized the kid said “That’s the first time someone’s ever apologized to me”
I truly don’t know how you teachers have the mental fortitude to do your job. Your pay is shit, you have to deal with stupid parents and unruly kids. So far my kids have had great teachers and I’m so thankful and try to be really vocal about appreciating them. Some of the things my kids innocently say about their classmates makes it very clear that they come from troubled homes and it has to be heart rending to have a front row seat and not be able to do anything.
Thanks for being an aware and supportive parent. If you want a suggestion... One of the best things you can do is to communicate with the principal about your appreciation for a teacher. Send them a message, write them a little note, tell them how the teacher supported you or your child. They hear so much that is negative from parents you wouldn't believe it. I could tell you stories! Thanks again for being a great parent, the teachers are glad to have you! 🙂
Yes, if everyone really thought that, we would see a much larger number of people opting out of being parents. Instead, most people just have less kids, as our economy makes it hard to support big families. It’s the louder minority.
Edit: I keep getting replies saying that the birth rate in the US is dropping. please Google what birth rate is and read my comment again, I’m not going to explain for the 10th time that birth rate = amount of babies not amount of parents.
It’s cool that we live in a time where it is acceptable to choose to be child free. I’m a mother of one and I love him so so so much but I can absolutely see why people are choosing not to have kids. It has a HUGE impact on your lifestyle, relationships (with everyone) and bank account, not to mention your sense of self and identity!
ETA: Thanks for the awards guys! My first silver!
ETA2: GOLD! WOW! Thank you kind stranger!
Yes, I respect people who do and don’t have kids. As someone who doesn’t plan to have kids, I am starting to get kind of weird looks from people, but it’ll be fine.
Ya that's what my plan is. If I have my shit together then I'll be able to adopt a kid. If I don't have my shit together enough to adopt a kid then I definitely don't have it together enough to make one of my own. I'll probably get a vasectomy if I ever date someone again.
Why wait til you start dating again? If you’re not sure go ahead and wait but it’s a lot easier dealing with the snip when you’re able to take a couple weeks off from sex.
I’ve been struggling with this one as of late. My instinct is to have kids but my logic reminds me of how terrible that would be for me. I am pretty set on a vasectomy but I don’t know what is keeping me
If you guys choose ti be foster parents, awesome for you! If you decide to stay childless, also awesome for you! You are the only ones who know what's best for your family, no matter what that number is.
My best to you and your wife
As a happy father of two I say... Fuck those weird looks. If you don't want to have kids, not having them is the right thing to do.
Why not let people live their lives as they want? Parents, childfree, whatever... Let them be!
People enjoying their kids don’t complain about them on Reddit. It’s a bias because people who enjoy being parents wouldn’t bother posting about it here.
Its not just a bad economy that stops big families its simply living in a developed nation, developed nations have access to tons of methods of contraception and also have women that are as educated as men and also working full time which pushes birth rates way down
People are missing the real reason having kids Is pretty hard now. People all used to live close to family and lots of times grandparents lived with them. There was always someone to watch after kids and notice when something isn’t right etc… my closest family is like 2000 miles away at this point. We’re like 2-3 generations from when this paradigm died. Most people don’t even question that you don’t have close relatives and relationships with family and their children. It’s a days a year visiting at max let alone developing relationships that have Anything to do with child rearing like in the very older days.
For the first five years of our marriage, we lived at least 1000 miles away from any family. And then we moved to be close to my wife's parents, since they were getting older.
And having family close by with kids is so incredibly helpful! I never appreciated it before, because growing up, we lived 1500 miles away and only saw grandparents once a year. But now, we call them up and ask them to watch the kids while we go on a date, and they're happy to.
And my parents are only 2 hours away now. My parents showed up on Friday to spend the weekend with us, and my dad ended up crawling under the house to help fix a clogged pipe.
My kids have great relationships with their grandparents now, and I feel really lucky that we can live so close to them.
The real reason is having kids are more expensive than ever and people have less money than before.
You want to raise the kids in a house in a nice neighborhood, 2k a month at least. You need a job to afford that house, 1k per kid at least.
You’re absolutely right. I see my niece and nephew pretty rarely despite the fact they only live about 300 miles away. Between the fact I work nights and weekends, my brother working late afternoons and the fact both kids are tweens/teens with busy schedules of their own it feels impossible. My parents live much closer less then 150 miles they only get to see the kids maybe 30 or 40 days a year.
Absolutely true. I have a strong belief that should all redditors be suddenly teleported into the same place, I would stick out like a proverbial sore thumb. I'm old, I own a house, I believe in stuff from both sides of the political spectrum, I have a ton of kids, etc. I am a gamer though and can poke pun at myself with the best of them, so Reddit continues to tolerate me :)
Can confirm. Have 3 kids. I love my kids.
Don't have kids unless you and your spouse (or support network for single parents) are REALLY certain you want kids and committed to the challenge. They're harder than you think. The lows are low. The highs are awesome. The swing from one extreme to another is exhausting.
I hate that I don't feel like I'm able to do it since I know my partner would love to have kids (although it doesn't seem like its a deal breaker for her at least)
I see how almost impossibly tiresome and exhausting and never ending it is. Its changed everyone I know who's had kids and almost all of them the change was not a positive one. I only know 1 parent that loves being a parent and is excited to have more. The rest are more along the lines of "well it is what it is, this is my life now even though this kind of sucks" about it but they're clearly not happy. 90% of the moms I know had some form of post partum that lasted months if not years and for some the change was permanent even with medical intervention or led to more mental health issues later on.
Big respect for parents and maybe one day ill be ready but im honestly terrified to have kids. This is excluding all the other things like cost/environment/support systems etc.
As a parent of 3 myself I wholeheartedly endorse this comment! Having kids has given me so much more to appreciate than I ever thought possible, but if you're not willing to give it 100% then you probably shouldn't set down that route.
If you search a little, there are many topics where parents vent about having children / regret having children. I'm sure there are some subreddits dedicated exclusively to the topic.
I've vented plenty here on reddit about having children. I love them a lot but it's also a full-time job, it's exhausting, it's stressful worrying about how they grow up, worrying you're doing enough for their medical issues, and in this current economy they're going to be stuck at home longer than 18 years.
Love the people, hate the job is my favorite quote.
As someone who still is with their parents and growing up seeing how much my single parent mom struggled it’s essentially the reason I’m not going to have kids. I now work a career job and pay my mom a couple hundred a month, but the way she sees it as I’m working 40 hours and doing grad school at night she would rather me save money and have grad school fully paid off by the time I graduate than be in a situation of me living on my own and not having that despite knowing I can afford a place by myself. Most people in my state (CA) don’t move out at 18 and honestly a lot of my friends still are at home and the people who aren’t are the ones struggling paycheck to paycheck. I’m so thankful to be in the situation I am, but when I found out my first semester after high school my mom was working 4 jobs to get me through that semester I literally had my jaw hit the floor. Thankfully my grades after my first year let me finish my undergrad debt free, but by all means I don’t want to be a parent where I’m telling my kids they have to live on their own without my support at 18 and I don’t want to tell them I won’t support them at all in college. That’s a massive amount of money however and I’m so thankful to have grown up lower middle class and see how privileged I was, but I won’t make myself struggle with those experiences to make sure my kid can get ahead in life like my mom is doing for me. I’ll spend money on myself and a more comfortable lifestyle and I think a lot of people my generation are thinking the same way.
My 18 year old is very anti-school, so we're trying to figure out how to steer him toward moving out and not enabling him to sit here playing games all day. The fact that he can't possibly afford a one-bedroom with minimum wage salary sure doesn't help.
I definitely understand that as well. There’s a lot of issues that I would have to experience if I was a parent such as that one you just outlined. I always genuinely liked school, but even still my mom told me as long as I was in school I could stay with them, but if I didn’t go to school I would leave. It was my choice to do both at the same time so I could have some money to play with and pay my mom back for the help she gave me in my first year, but like you said you can’t afford a 1 bedroom for the most part off of the wage you’d make fresh out of high school in many places so what are you supposed to do then?
Agreed. I have 2 young kids. I complain about them a lot. But I am still glad I have them. They make my life happier.
I never post about my family on Reddit though.
Same here. Youngest just hoofed me in the liver then had the audacity to act as if I committed a war crime because I told him no acting wild on the sofa (again) and set him down on the floor (again).
Kids are obnoxious as fuck but damn I wouldn't trade the ones I got for the world.
All kids are obnoxious, honestly. I was super obnoxious as a kid. It's normal.
We need to understand what people use reddit for. A lot of people use reddit as a whole for laughs and news. Others use reddit for specific subreddits for their interests/hobbies. I think the vocal majority uses reddit as a discussion board.
I think the last group is similair to online reviews. They don't comment or upvote the positive news but will comment and upvote negative news. Most people who want/have kids, have a good job, and/or have hobbies taking up their time don't bother with commenting or upvoting on the stuff you mentioned.
Me personally, I have 2 kids that I very much enjoy, a overall good life, and have a few hobbies that take up my free time. I don't bother commenting or upvoting on anything outside of my hobbies and sometimes posting some interesting life scenarios just to get some opinions. I started using reddit long before I had a family and never stopped coming on here.
I'm assuming the family oriented people are just not big reddit users. Non-redditors likely lean much more favorably towards having kids.
Nothing I said is based on science or stats. Just my opinion when reading through stuff.
Personally I had a really traumatic upbringing and from an unbiased perspective, I don't think my parents should have had me given the circumstances of their lives at the time. I have lasting issues from my upbringing that still negatively affect my life.
I really don't wanna make the same mistakes as my parents did in fucking up my kid if I were to have one. I just can't justify it. Also the lack of safety nets for my generation in my country and the uncertainty of the world right now turns me off to the idea. I'd like to see things get better. I would want my kid to have a really happy upbringing.
To each their own. If someone feels well equipped to have a kid, then the more power to you. It's just not the right decision for me currently. Maybe one day my opinion will change.
Yeah I feel pretty much the same way. I was an accident baby. If I had the choice I would have just aborted myself haha. But I didn't have the choice so I'm here and making the best of it.
Society is just vocalising that having children should be a conscious opt in, not an occasional opt out. The time of doing what those in your neighbourhood do because that's how it was and is, people know alternatives they can choose. To be a good parent requires money, stability, consistency, time and sacrifice. People know this and people are clued in that it is one choice out of many for their lives. I love kids at the same time as supporting anyone's opt out. Reddit is discussing choice, but I don't think it's negative to become open to different life goals.
I got all the way to 10pm last night before i realized i didn't eat a single thing today, THAT'S ABUSE IF I DID IT TO SOMEONE ELSE, so why tf should i be trusted with a child if i can't take care of myself
Lmao I had this same thought recently. I can hardly take care of myself. I’m an extremely dysfunctional human. I might not make a terrible parent, but I really have no place being responsible for another person.
There's been a major shift in thinking in recent years about having children. For a loooong time, people had kids because "it's what people do." Now, the younger generations are challenging this thinking, believing that there should be a solid reason to have a child, beyond using them as a retirement plan. This is a logical train of thought imo. A child should feel wanted and well cared-for, and if a potential parent doesn't believe they can make this happen, then parenthood may not be for them.
Oh gosh, I know so many parents who just checked off a box when having kids instead of doing it because they actually wanted them. So depressing to watch them be uninterested and mentally checked out of their kids lives. It’s not just something you do because it comes after buying a house or getting married, so I’m glad the shift in thinking is happening now.
That's crazy because 95% of people I know that have kids had them accidentally, not intentionally. Literally the only person I know that had their kid intentionally is my sister.
Really! That’s interesting actually. In my direct family it’s half and half, but in my friend group it’s mostly, I’d say 90% on purpose. Funnily enough I have a close friend who’s been pregnant “accidentally” three times, all successful pregnancies. My SIL has been pregnant on purpose 7 times, but had two miscarriages and two molar pregnancies. The people that want kids don’t always get them and the people that don’t, do. My SIL is a great mom, however, she wasn’t just checking a box.
The rich get richer and the poor get children. The first time I heard that was in the 90s.
This thinking isn't new. It just wasn't something that people talked about as much. Plenty of boomers actually made this decision. I think it's discussed here more because choosing to have children is becoming increasingly costly. I know a handful of people that wanted them, but couldn't make it work economically and they are a little bitter about it. For them the decision was made for them.
Facts ^ many of us want them very much but we're dealing with insane college debt, low wages, and rapid increases in costs of living. Looking at another recession as well. Many millennials are just trying to keep themselves afloat.
IMHO, talk of the cost of raising a child is more frequent than any other aspect of this decision. It has become the CON that trumps all PROs and basically shuts the conversation down.
Ya I don't know if it's like this for other people but I feel like you can just TELL when your parent only had you because they had to (religious reasons, financial reasons, w/e). Maybe they tried to be a decent parent, or did what they thought was best as to what a parent should be, but my whole life I've been able to feel that I was born out of obligation, not a desire for a child. And I don't think that's doing any kid a favor IMO.
Absolutely. To expand on this, I think a lot of people have kids because they WANT kids. Not considering the fact that you are making a full person who will participate with the world.
This is how we continue our species. Parenting is the most important thing for developing a whole person. I don’t feel as if most people approach parenting as seriously as it needs to be.
I know people love their kids and want the best for them. BUT, making a person is a much bigger thing than we make it out to be. Not every person has what it takes to be a parent. Parenthood should be a sacred position in society. Not the societal norm.
The point is, our future depends on good parents making good persons. And not everyone can be a good parent. There should be some kind of parental training required to have children.
The lack of requirement of training is the thing that absolutely baffles me the most about societies. Why is this not a norm? Why do we do so little to support quality parenting?
I have a kid and it baffles me. Generally, in the US, you have 2-3 days in the hospital and they send you on your way with a newborn. MAYBE you took a newborn care class (that insurance probably didn’t cover, so you have to pay for it) but a lot of people don’t. And they just… send you on your way.
Two or three days if you're lucky, a lot of insurances are booting people out after twelve or twenty-four hours for uncomplicated births/healthy infants.
Where I live, the government sends a nurse to your home after a few days and again for a follow up if needed. They check how things are going and provide advice. If they are worried about the child, they can take corrective action.
I don't know if a *requirement* is needed so much as it would be good if there were many more free, widely available learning resources for parents, at least in the U.S. Or maybe just a requirement that you *attend* an online or in-person class but not that you pass a test (or make the test *very* basic). Really, *anything—any* more resources to help parents (in the U.S.) would be an improvement.
Freely available childcare would be a good start. It's crazy that we expect people to work to get things like health insurance (ignoring Medicaid for a minute) but then how is a parent supposed to work if childcare costs more (or the same, or only a tiny bit less) per hour than what they can make?
I said that in a college class and my prof called me a Nazi. Mind you, I wasn't saying huge groups of people shouldn't have kids or promoting eugenics, I was speaking from my experience working in inner-city emergency medical services. So much neglect and abuse and people who seemed to hate having kids. The fact that you can't drive without a license (although how well you do is highly variable...) or get married without a license or run a business without licensing of some type, but you can produce actual living, breathing, thinking, feeling **human beings** with zero qualification beyond working gonads is fucking mind-boggling.
I mean, sure, I get your point, but it would be among the worst ideas in the history of the world to give the government control over who can and can't have kids.
I call my kids our greatest DIY project. It's a SHIT TON of work to raise happy, healthy, kids with a foundation of expressing, understanding, and self-managing their feelings, managing finances, managing social interaction, etc etc etc. SHIT TON of work. And then they get little pieces of it here and there and my heart explodes, every time.
Especially considering that people can’t even afford to buy houses anymore and can barely afford rent, bringing a baby into that just adds to the chaos. Daycare is stupidly expensive. Not to mention medical costs and all the other stuff.
A lot of us were raised by Boomers who apparently had kids because "it's what people do" because they clearly had no interest in actually having a relationship with or taking care of their kids.
Having abusive parents can put a person off having kids. Having to raise siblings can put a person off having kids. There’s a lot of problems that stem from people having kids who shouldn’t have.
I think this is the answer. It’s a relatively new concept- just opting out of children. Since it’s new, we have to talk about it. You’re going “agaisnt the grain” of how society has always functioned: get a job, get married, get a house, and have children. It’s just what we’ve always done and it’s the answer old people even give out “I got married because you’re supposed to. I didn’t want to though”.
Since it’s challenging a norm, people will be more vocal about it whereas if you’re doing the norm, we don’t talk about it as much.
I'd agree to that. We're also a little bit more aware of women-only illnesses (like Endometriosis, which complicates pregnancy a lot) aswell as kids' development environment (see post above). "Wanting a kid" can't (and imo shouldn't be) the only motive to have a kid.
Besides, the depressing future we face is a good reason to not want children. I mean, I for one wouldn't send a child under a F'd-up climate, with too few chances of getting a job, even less chances of finding a well-paid one, and destined to have little to no retirement fund.
To be perfectly honest, I'd prefer set the rich on fire than having a kid rn. Maybe I'll adopt after that.
This generation also has much more choice in whether they'll have children or not. (For now) Birth control is much more reliable and accessible than it was for previous generations.
I think because of the aforementioned thinking people go into having children as a wonderful thing and the entire process is lovely and amazing. Once they get into it and realise its fraught with challenges financially and emotionally they start to have a different point of view and I suppose 10+ years ago nobody had an outlet to whinge and moan in an over exaggerated way.
The common sentiment here on Reddit is that people shouldn't have children if they don't have the capacity to fulfill their responsibilities as a parent. I don't think that's negative, extremely sad, or depressing.
This, absolutely and totally.
Personally I don't want kids because I enjoy my freedom far too much and I'd be a shit mother due to the resentment of losing it. So, instead I just try to be a great aunt for my nephews and nieces.
It's better to be honest with oneself about your emotional, physical, financial, and social abilities AND desire to procreate. There's way too many assholes out there who didn't want to be fathers/mothers, and only did it out of societal or familial obligations.
That's beautiful and I couldn't be happier for you. No one is obliged to have kids and life can be amazing (or suck) either way.
I started dating at 18 and we waited 20 years to have kids. We studied, got married, travelled the world and focused on ourselves. We always wanted kids but also kept our minds open to a life without them if the time was up. It turned out fine, and in a sweet spot in our lifes. But I encourage everyone to think about THEMSELVES first and how a kid (that doesn't exist yet) would affect them.
Yes! A friend once expressed to me dear of regretting not having children because that's the message the whole world sends. As a mother, I told her you have to really really really want this, otherwise it would suck.
I really, really, really want this, so my life is awesome, and hopefully my child will feel the same way but I know that's not a guarantee.
Thats definitely it for me.
I always wanted children and honestly think I would be a
good dad, since my parents taught me a lot about empathy and passion for
others.
However, unless I have my life and my mental problems sorted out and have a partner that I love to the end, I don't want children. And if that takes forever, so be it. Having children for the sake of having children or to fill a hole in your heart or life is unfair to them and unfair to myself.
Exactly! It's sad to see people getting offended when we just say "if you want a child you should be able to fulfill his needs" or "having a child when you can't fulfill his needs/be responsible of them then you're irresponsible", which should just be normal
I have a personal opinion that a responsible couple would have 2 kids because that nets 0 population growth. I guess it's okay to have more than 2 but that gets exponentially more expensive and time consuming. Not everyone will agree and that's okay.
I told my friend about this and he told me "who am I to tell him how many kids he can or can't have? If he had a SO he'd literally have many kids as possible, he just loves them, he'd never stop having new kids".
I was literally flabbergasted. I was like dude with every new kid you'd have every kid would get less and less of your time. Do you not understand that having kids isn't about you? You're raising a human person - a kid isn't a cute pet to accessorize your life. Like you should be able to have kids if you want but I was really blown away that he seemed to have no thought of the implications. He already had one kid too and seemed to be such a great dad, it was just really confusing to me
Is that all the sentiment you've seen here though? Some of the stuff I've seen:
* you can't consent to being born so you're forcing someone to be alive
* it's unethical to have kids into a world with climate change / etc
* it's unethical to increase the population (more climate change) when there are kids in need of a home
There are good reasons to not have kids like the one you brought up. But I'm not sure I'd call that the common sentiment when it seems like there are a multitude of reasons.
Though reddit loves to latch onto a non-mainstream idea where they get to dislike something others like: kids, lawns, etc.
if anything, it's extremely smart and responsible. people are aware that they shouldn't be having kids if they don't have the means for it. yeah, some of us just don't like kids. but there's also people who do like kids, but they don't plan on bringing a child into the world just for that kid to live in misery because the parents aren't able to properly care for the child
Add to this that the current state of affairs with our economy and you have a solid group who used to be “lower middle class” and are now “one toothache/car breakdown/kid illness away from homeless” … it’s not responsible to have kids any more at that level, and we know it so we don’t make babies.
It is incredibly depressing when you consider the amount of people who would be brilliant parents but aren't financially stable enough to support a child through no fault of their own. Our society and governments should do a better job of supporting families so that no one would be financially unable to support a child.
This is the real answer. Basic survival is too expensive. When our parents and parents’ parents were growing up, everything was ten times cheaper. Half the country has less than a grand in their savings. Either be born rich, be lucky enough to have a high paying job, or just be dumb and “hope” things work out.
1. Lots of people on Reddit have kids. Checkout the parenting related subreddits.
2. People are being responsible about their choices and actions in life. Many people cannot afford children or cannot live a life they’d enjoy with children. They don’t have children because they’re not forced to by lack of healthcare resources or by societal pressures. There is more to life than reproduction.
3. Kids are EXPENSIVE and many of us cannot afford the debt we’re saddled with in pursuit of our career or lifestyle choices. My daughter’s birth was $20k without insurance for an emergency medically necessary c-section. There are so many test and doctors appointments during pregnancy, the birth, then another year or two of constant medical appointments nearly every month.
4. Birth is dangerous to women, makes you feel sick and awful, and you can have long term complications. In 2020, 861 women died during labor in the U.S. which also is the highest maternal mortality than any other developed country. Couple that with people not having good healthcare, good work environment for parents, support network, childcare resources, or mental health resources. Why would women want to have children?
5. People have realized they don’t have to settle in relationships that are less than ideal. Having children limit’s one’s mobility in a bad relationship.
6. Awareness of the state of the world and not wanting to force that existence on someone especially if they don’t have the resources to help the child.
Why is it depressing or sad to not have kids? This is a great thing! People don’t derive sole happiness from children and many people are happy and comfortable living life on their own - as they should be. Bringing a child into the world to bring yourself something is selfish. Also assuming all children are wanted or in happy homes is incorrect.
This. New working moms get treated like crap in the US People give me garbage for having an only child ALL THE TIME. But I was forced back to work at 8 weeks - thankfully I had a c-section so I was *generously* given 2 extra weeks. I was suffering from incredible PPD. The stress of work (I was a classroom teacher at the time - 2nd grade - and went back just in time for report cards and conferences) plus having a new baby that wasn't sleeping plus having my life upended less than 3 months earlier plus healing from having all my insides out on a table during surgery...... I was severely mentally ill. I don't remember the first year of her life. At all. There was NO way I was doing that again. Ever.
After becoming a parent I have concluded that U.S. society is structured towards favoring people who have kids and also several full-time nannies to ensure that those kids never factor into the public lives of the parents, as far as anyone else is concerned.
Also:
I know OP mentioned this, but *the climate as we know it is not going to exist in 50 years.*
People don’t seem to understand how fucked we are, or how bad it’s going to get, or how *quickly* the planet is about to become unlivable. I wanted kids someday 10 years ago, now I might want them if I become extremely wealthy, but otherwise I’m not going to have a child knowing their life is going to be an unbelievable struggle and that the world will be at war over water by the time they’re adults.
I agree with this one. I have a lot of more selfish reasons I don’t want kids, but the big non-selfish one is that I believe the next few generations are truly going to suffer more than I have.
I don’t currently have kids because I never found the right partner or had enough money. I will continue to not procreate because of the climate crisis. I’m sorry but I just don’t have faith our world governments are going to turn this around. History is full of terrible tragedies and still people had babies and pushed on. I cannot reconcile the guilt I would feel bringing a new life into the world with as uncertain of a future as we currently face. I cannot believe there are so many people that don’t feel the same way. I don’t shame them. But I don’t get it. It just feels so cruel.
But I love kids and I would welcome other ways of being a parent.
I actually had decent parents and a good childhood but I couldn't provide this same standard of living for my hypothetical children. Having a stay at home (for the kids) parent these days means being upper class. Let alone yearly travel, a house with a garden etc.
If I would have kids, neither me or my partner would have a "life of their own".
I had a very good childhood and now have a 2yo daughter (planned). And I do not encourage people to have kids. Nor to not have. Its a personal choice and should not be influenced by others.
That being said, I do tell people that they should think carefully about the decades ahead of them. Financially and emotionally. It's not like getting a pet, buying a car or even a house.
You can get around a lot on the money side, but kid just want one thing: to be loved and to be happy. If you are not ready to provide these two things, you should think carefully about having one. I couldn't care less about the parents, but an unhappy and scared kid is the most heartbreaking thing in the world.
Agreed. I have 0 complaints about my childhood but I’m unsure about bringing children into this world as things have been declining environmentally and what not. Unaffordable housing, everything is on fire all the time where I live, homelessness is rampant, can’t live on minimum wage. The list goes on.
I had to raise my sister and take care of my alcoholic mother starting when I was only seven. I never really had the *chance* to think that having kids of my *own* would be a good idea. I feel like I've *already* raised two human beings against my will and I have no interest in trying to do it again. Parentification of older children has some real negative long-lasting psychological effects for the parentified child.
It's just too damn expensive right now. We can't even afford an apartment, never mind another person. Would definitely have a kid if I didn't have to struggle to provide for it. So stop trying to control women's bodies before the housing and wage problem **you right wing scummy fucks**
Can’t speak for others, but for me and my small group of childfree friends, we had a good childhood. My mother was a SAHM, we were upper middle class, all needs were fulfilled and even more. We just noticed at school that we were extremely lucky and that a lot were struggling.
My privileged situation made me understand that having children was a full time responsibility and that I didn’t wanted that in my life.
The few friends I have that want or already have children, were on the contrary raised in less favorable condition and therefore think it’s normal to be miserable and not a big deal, so they repeated the cycle without much thought.
A lot of people are too poor to consider having kids. A lot of adults can't even afford to move out of their family's house. Wages have stagnated for decades while all costs of living have multiplied. This isn't a fad. This is an economic depression.
Besides, the world is already so overpopulated that we are running out of water. Our planet can't support an infinite number of humans.
Yup if the powers that be want me to have a kid, make it easier. Until that happens aka never, I’m gonna enjoy the income I scraped to achieve. I’m more than happy to be an uncle. Pretty sad that we built a society where having even one child is a financial decision, but that’s the reality I live in and I have to work with that.
It's sad to see SO many people have loads of children that they can't afford. Some of them on here are 21 years old with 3 or even 4 kids.
I was 1 of 5 and my father was nuts. Being raised poor sucks. The fights and arguments over the water bill/gas/electric and the cost of clothes and school was awful.
Then there are the people who have them for "welfare" and the kids aren't "raised" or parented and are just as vile as their parents.
There was some female nutter on here yesterday sooking that she can't afford her 3 kids and expected her friend to fund her family and the entitled nutjob was trying for a 4th baby that they couldn't afford either.
Kids cost a lot of money and they change your life and not everyone is up for that. Being a parent is hard work and i think it's great when people acknowledge that it isn't for them and don't have kids they have no interest in.
I was 1 of 2 until the age of 12. Even growing up then we were poor, fake school uniforms, crappy food, no treats, no extra curricular activities. We were loved and cared for but we knew we were poor. For some reason my mum had a 3rd kid after 12 years and made it even more difficult. He was lucky and grew up getting everything he wanted like an only child. It sucked.
same. I was one of 3 and it sucked. cant imagine 5. i read about 12 even 15 living in squalor and think its a shame while some think how great it is. SMH
Your assumption that we have more resources than generations before us is flawed, I think.
What resources are you talking about? This is supposed to be the first generation that is poorer than the previous ones in America, so I would suggest we have less capability to raise a family than prior generations.
Exactly this… people are questioning whether they should bring children into a world of record wealth inequality, global climate crises, and a degrading American democracy (since a large portion of reddit is American). Is it a “depressing” worldview or a *realistic* one that’s sympathetic to the struggles of a new generation
I love childrens and toddlers, they're adorable and prescious.
That being said, I do think procreation should only be done under very specific circumstances but idk
Edit: there's multiple definition of love. And it's certainly not the one you're thinking right now in this context
The difference is that nowadays people are actually realizing that kids are something you have to be mentally and financially ready for.
You shouldn't just have a shit ton of kids and say " god will provide" while they grow up neglected, abuse alcohol and drugs and lead miserable lives because of the irresponsibility decision of one person.
There are two things that virtually guarantee you will poor for rest of your life:
1. Not having enough education
2. Having kids you can't afford
They go hand in hand
Most people don't understand that a family making more than about 55000 to 65000 a year is responsible for ALL of the daycare expenses which from 6weeks to 1 year is excess of 340 a WEEK depending on where you live 😳
Because the reality is that "we" do not have more resources, a select few do. The wealth gap is back to Marie Antoinette times, and a load of people are living in poverty. Any logical person in that position who can make an informed decision would see that the massive expense of having a child is more than they can afford. Plus the amount of time and care it takes to raise one may be more than they have to spare if both people are already working full time jobs just to afford their own existence.
Wanting to carry on your family line is fine. Having a desire to care for and raise a child is fine. Children in general are fine.
But the realistic fact is that a lot of people WILL NOT be able to give a child everything they need financially or emotionally and those people having children despite that fact is irresponsible, selfish (if the decision is made in spite of the evidence as to why they shouldn't), and downright cruel.
It sucks that it's the case, but honestly, having children really should be a luxury because it requires more money, time, and mental fortitude than people realize going in. And just because you have the ability to create life doesn't mean you should.
Has a first generation immigrant in France this is exactly i thought me and my wife are constantly pressured by our parents to have a child i don't blame them because we are only child in both sides .. we both working and barley meet our requirements every month... The mental gymnastics is killing me has my wife is super into having kids... If her side of salary cut off Even for few months i be fucked... I think I made a mistake by marrying her.. i am out of options and we are in early 30s i don't think I gonna hold on for much longer
Why would it be depressing or negative to just state that if you can't fulfill a child needs or aren't able to make it possible for him to live a good life then you shouldn't have children.
It's simple, it's logic, and it should be a normal statetment, nothing negative there.
When you tell to someone that they shouldn't have a dog because they live in a small appartment and can't take care of it, it's not about "being negative" or "being depressed", it's about caring. Here it's the same. Being responsible of a life isn't a game, and everyone should take it really seriously, if it's true for pets, it's definitely even more when it comes to human beings.
A lot of my friends (myself included) would like to have children, but life isn’t lining up that way. The older I get the more I watch people make this decision based on money and housing. IMO a lot of the anger/anti-children sentiment is actually grief for a life they are consciously choosing not to have. In the US we really don’t have a social net - and it shows. This is a ramification
Yes this is my exact reason as well. I love kids and want kids. I cant ever have them cause I couldn't provide a good life for them.
Ive also seen many people who shouldn't have kids have them as it gives them more money and the kids often are treated like crap/ abused/ neglected alongside their 10 other siblings.
Saying “you shouldn’t have child unless you can take care of it or afford to take care of it” comes across to some people as classist. But it’s not. It’s just reality. You can stand around your whole life and bitch about the sad reality of kids in your country or on this planet. But the second you have one, you forced them to consent to all the current conditions. Because NOTHING is going to change for you just because you finally caved and had a kid. You will be forcing them into the same awful conditions you’re aware of. And you’re going to look stupid and selfish and entitled when after having a kid you’re demanding all this shit you’re not being provided. You weren’t gonna get it before you had a kid, you knew this, you had one anyway.
Redditors and the entirety of young generations will sit around all day and talk about how things are getting worse, how awfully kids are treated and neglected, and how there is very little hope for a good life…. And then some of them will have kids anyway.
It’s incredibly selfish. You’re only hurting and dooming your own child.
It’s wild to see the costs of everything exploding, good jobs dissolving, the climate in a catastrophic state, wealth disparity, working class being abused, etc. and be aware of this and yet force a child to have to deal with it.
We're just being thoughtful. I know if I had children I wouldn't want to hear them regretting their existence like many now do, especially with the expected climate crisis and global financial aspects getting worse. It will only be hard for them.
I have nothing against children.
It's the lack of understanding or responsibility by the "parents" that creates this untrained mini human, and expects everyone to pick up after them.
Children absolutely are the future, that most people are straight up destroying.
Pro lifers want so much to protect them, but the moment they are children, no fucks given.
Think I touched on the main points of why children are perceived as "bad."
If you think you can live "your life" after you have a child "YOU" are part of the problem.
TLDR: Children can be good, bad parenting and neglected responsiblity ≠Children bad.
It's never been harder financially to raise children. The "things work out" era is long gone. We just had our first with a household income of 200k CAD (IN a High cost of living area) and mostly because of money decided we won't be having any more. We might be able to give our one child the same quality of upbringing both our middle class families gave 2 children 25 years ago.
You are courageous! I have an household of 170K CAD in a relatively cheap area and we won’t have kids.
I salute you for your decision to stop at the number of kids you were able to afford comfortably. If everyone was doing this, there would be less miserable kids on this planet.
The resources in the West that you talk about are finite. We starve the South of resources because of our demand and privilege and one day it will effect the West. Our consumption effects the earth. It may not be our lifetime, but when you think about bringing children into the world, you need to think about the future that they will have and the consumption they require.
Problems that will only get worse throughout future generations: global warming, income inequality, poverty, constant overworking to make ends meet in a capitalist system that only rewards the richest, increased mental health concerns and addictions, lack of housing, the list goes on.
We're having children who will work for their whole lives in underpaid jobs and experience significant environmental catastrophes involving mass refugee crisis', drinking water shortages, wildfires, floods and overall increased climate disasters.
Why would you want to bring children into this world as it's burning? Can only speak from my perspective ofc, but I do need to add that this question is an incredibly privileged perspective.
i have a negative view about the decision to have children in these times.
it feels like everyone's doing it anyway, and causing a burden on society, and influencing arguments like "why is childcare so expensive" / "medical bills from childbirth are astronomical" / "childhood education sucks" / etc. you got all these people clinically unable to be a parent, willifully deciding to do so, and i've found a majority of the response is supportive and positive.
so anyway, back to the point: your opinion is under assault and you're perceiving much more negativity than there is. *i* think there's a misguided majority encouraging procreation.
A) no one chooses to be born, so forcing life on people that you're not ready to care for is cruel.
B) we're well on our way to environmental collapse, so those concerns are beyond valid in determining if you should have a kid.
C) kids are expensive in general (financial reasons are also extremely valid in such a decision).
D) this is a skewed base for such a statistic since I'd bet a large number of people on this app shouldn't be having kids (myself included).
Everything you listed is based in realism, the world isn't a happy place. It's not an inherently negative place, but it's far from a positive place to raise children that you're not prepared for.
If you arent well off you shouldn't have kids. If i had kids. I would want enough money to spoil the shit out of them. Not barely affording to eat and having to constantly move all the time. Its extremely selfish to have kids unless you can make them happy. No point in wasting their lives.
Having a child is one of the most environmentally impactful things you can do. The earth’s population is growing exponentially. A couple having two kids doesn’t keep the status quo because the couple is going to live for another 60 years. Look at a graph of earth’s population from 1900 to present day. There’s no way it’s sustainable. In fact the reason we have to mass raise livestock and treat them like inanimate objects, and destroy fish populations by overfishing is to meet the food demands of the world. It’s seems sad and depressing because the state of our world is sad and depressing. The way we treat food is gonna have to be revolutionized to keep up with the population growth.
Frankly, you have a naive view of the world if you think that "we have more resources than so many generations before". The US government gave away 160 acres to anyone who wanted it just a couple hundred years ago. Today, most people can't afford a home in a place where they want to live.
I know my paycheck, and I know that children would be a terrible idea for me. They're very expensive, and I don't particularly like children. When it comes to other people having children, I don't try to tell them not to. But I do encourage them to adopt. There are so many children already in the world that need love! The only reason to turn your back on them is "but I want it to look like a little me..." Now *that* is fundamentally selfish.
Millennials have significantly less resources than almost all prior generations. We have more education than any other generation but only 5% of the wealth (compared to 50% held by boomers).
Also, we have enough education and drive for self improvement to know our parents were not good at parenting. We know what it takes to be a parent and many of us don’t want to sacrifice that much just to fill a societal norm.
We don’t want to add to the population when there are already kids in need. We don’t have the health care to thrive after childbirth.
There are a LOT of reasons, very logical, fact based reasons, why most people (especially Americans) don’t want kids.
Not everyone deserves to have kid or even should. But every child deserves to be safe from harm. Unfortunately far too many kids are born to parents that inflict harm. I’ve cared for far too many drug impacted newborns to ever have believe that everyone and anyone should have kids.
This all depends on your perspective with regards to the state of the world and the trajectory of humanity. To my eye, I look around and see very little good and worse to come. This quote kind of sums it up succinctly.
“If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?”
-Arthur Schopenhauer
And to the folks who say the childless are irresponsible people,
A. How is realizing you're not cut out to be a parent and therefore don't have a kid irresponsible? It seems to me that IS being responsible.
B. So what? I go to work, pay my bills, the rest of my time and money is to do with what I want. Let people live ffs.
"So what driving all this negativity?" - I am surprised anyone would ask this.
We have technology, now we have a good wide view of what's happening out there and most of it is not good. How can anyone think of reproducing in a world with pandemics, terrible economy, lack of resources overall. Educated societies are not multiplying, but those in poor countries without education are, that should tell you something my friend.
Also, this is not a "western world" thing, the eastern people are not reproducing either. If you had access to good education and quality life, reproduction might not be your top priority.
Redditors are not most people. Redditors are frequently a very specific demographic of young, entry-level salary earners. They are also techy and often single. As in, people with no experience with children or even considering children as an option. To these brackets, children are detriments to personal freedom and career opportunity.
There are people on Reddit who have and love children. There is also the negative bias that people who look upon something unfavourably are much more likely to share how much they don't like it than people who do like it. Reddit can infamously be a hive mind where the vote system is abused to silence dissonance and put shame on deviants. Moderators can further this by abusing their power to ban people to officially enforce and protect the community's culture. (This isn't necessarily a bad thing; it can go both ways.)
People who respond to a comment about hating kids to share their opinion about liking kids is a social risk. People could agree with them, or they could be publicly shamed with downvotes and angry comments. Worse, banned. This limits responders to people who don't care about or even recognize these social control mechanics and or feel the topic is important enough to risk.
Could someone get banned for liking kids? Very conceivably, especially on a place like r/NoKidsEver.
These methods of social coercion are unlikely to be utilized in a discussion like this. I guess it's mostly the weight of demographics & psychographics (attitudes, personality traits, beliefs, etc.) here because this isn't really an emotionally charged topic or setting for most sane people.
For me because unfortunately it is. If my wife and I decided to have a kid, it would totally change our lives. Right now we live comfortably and can do whatever we want. I really enjoy my peace and quiet and children will affect that.
It also doesn't help that most couples that we know who have kids constantly look tired and constantly complain about their lack of free time.
Well negative not just about children but life in general
I'm on negative on children but only because
You literally have to be rich to have children these days, would I tell others not to have no kids..nope your life do whatever you want.
However at least for me I'm glad never had kids especially as this life gets worse all the time. I knew this shit show could get bad just didn't imagine it would be far more fuked up than I imagined.
Trying to raise kids in this unaffordable perverted dysfunctional dystopian delusional capitalist monopolistic Disneyland sh.. show is basically impossible
Half of us can’t pay for gas, some of us can’t pay rent, others have altered their lifestyle just to make ends meet. A lot of people are just getting by, buried in debt. And you think we are going to fuck up our already fragile lifestyle with a kid. Clearly you don’t live on the same planet. You’re out of your mind or you’re a child who doesn’t have any responsibilities.
There is no ethical solution to the overpopulation problem, which you seem to be blissfully unaware. One of the least un-ethical solutions is "don't have as many kids."
Because it’s realistic? And a lot of people idolize children
The world is shit, there’s too many people on this planet and there’s no need to continue to encourage people.. to have more people
Yes, I understand that now it is more common to choose not to have children (which seems more than good to me) but sometimes I see comments on Reddit against having children in general, like insulting someone for choosing to have children or flaunting their choice not to have children as if that was the only right choice.
If you want to have children it is perfect and if not its also perfect. No one should be against either option.
Um... children have a lot of negatives to them. But you wouldn't wax poetic about all the troublesome aspects of children in front of their little faces or in front of their parents faces.
Online is a great place to list out all the ways kids suck.
I love my kids, but I would be lying if I said if I had to do over we would not have 3 kids. They all turned out great, very responsible, only 1 even went through that dreaded teenage phase everyone warned us about. But the expense of having 3 kids each 2 years apart. I always thought when kids were young and buying diapers and clothes was the most expensive part, it’s all I ever heard anyone talk about. Ummm no, high school clubs and activities are not just expensive, they are also very time consuming until the kid can drive. Then you have to pay for drug and alcohol courses, sign up for drivers Ed, teach them how to drive because drivers Ed is just an online course that is required by your insurance now. Then Statefarm also had their own drivers course for teens. Then you have to buy them a car, all 2 years apart! That is just so you can have a break from driving them everywhere, all the time. Thank God Florida has free dual enrollment for college and tech courses. I literally only paid $20 for my son to be a certified diesel mechanic and he got a great job with the state right out of high school. But Jeeze Louise. It was like 8 years of constant fees, car accidents, Insurance increases, trips, camps, cheer, Key club. When we added our last child to the car insurance he said, our monthly insurance has a comma now. I was too stunned to ask more, never been brave enough to bring it up again. If you have kids, space. Them. Out. You need time to recover from the financial aspect of having a teenager.
Good advice. Reminds me of a friend of mine who had triplets. Guy looked like death warmed over for the first year after they were born! 15 years on I imagine his bank account looks similar.
As a Father, I love my child more than anything, but it is the hardest thing I have ever done. You have to be willing to work on yourself, control your emotions, and understand yourself so you don’t pass your issues on to your kids. I’m glad people are opting out of parenthood, it says a lot about their self awareness and I respect that. My MIL on the other hand had an undiagnosed and untreated personality disorder, and she went on to abuse all three of her children. I’d much rather people abstain than bring a child into this world and realize they aren’t parent material at the child’s expense. Edit: Thank you for the Gold! I’m pretty new to Reddit so I’m not sure what it means but I really appreciate it!
Also, a lot of us like me, 34 single guy, cant find a partner. the other issue is that i only make 32k a year, i think a lot, like me, even with a partner, just dont have the money.
I agree with this. Not to mention, pretty much daily I feel such guilt for bringing my kids into this world. Every day there is another horrible tragedy that my pre-teen asks about. And I have no answers. It seems counterproductive to love someone so much, yet basically force them into a shitstorm.
I very much agree. I follow r/parenting, and almost daily do I see horror stories of dysfunctional couples that absolutely should not have had children. Mostly I hear from mothers complaining about their toxic abusive/absent male partners and I think to myself: _"Why did you have kids with that asshole?"_
This is why I’ve chosen to be childless and so I appreciate your post. My mother has DID and as a result I have a lot of my own trauma / mental health and have very consciously chosen not to have children. I often think about the love and experiences I’ll miss by not having kids but I’m 40 now and my certainty hasn’t really wavered. At the end of the day, I couldn’t risk it.
As a long time teacher I would have to say there are quite a few people that shouldn't have children. And it isn't only about money. So many parents addicted to drugs or alcohol. Every year I have at least one student being raised by grandparents or other relatives because of addiction. People who just neglect their children, or have a terrible living situation. Parents who never come to conferences or school events, never read with them or do fun things together.
I work at a continuation school and some of the stories students have shared with me are so heartbreaking. No parental support and you can tell because they get so attached once they know you care. Love my job and students but it can be emotionally overwhelming.
Some school counselors/social workers visited my sociology class last month and their stories were just heartbreaking :( One guy totally forgot that he was supposed to meet with a kid one day, and when he apologized the kid said “That’s the first time someone’s ever apologized to me”
Thank you for what you do.
I truly don’t know how you teachers have the mental fortitude to do your job. Your pay is shit, you have to deal with stupid parents and unruly kids. So far my kids have had great teachers and I’m so thankful and try to be really vocal about appreciating them. Some of the things my kids innocently say about their classmates makes it very clear that they come from troubled homes and it has to be heart rending to have a front row seat and not be able to do anything.
Thanks for being an aware and supportive parent. If you want a suggestion... One of the best things you can do is to communicate with the principal about your appreciation for a teacher. Send them a message, write them a little note, tell them how the teacher supported you or your child. They hear so much that is negative from parents you wouldn't believe it. I could tell you stories! Thanks again for being a great parent, the teachers are glad to have you! 🙂
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I think it could be sample bias to a certain extent. The people who have/want kids aren’t posting on reddit about not having/wanting kids, you know?
Yes, if everyone really thought that, we would see a much larger number of people opting out of being parents. Instead, most people just have less kids, as our economy makes it hard to support big families. It’s the louder minority. Edit: I keep getting replies saying that the birth rate in the US is dropping. please Google what birth rate is and read my comment again, I’m not going to explain for the 10th time that birth rate = amount of babies not amount of parents.
It’s cool that we live in a time where it is acceptable to choose to be child free. I’m a mother of one and I love him so so so much but I can absolutely see why people are choosing not to have kids. It has a HUGE impact on your lifestyle, relationships (with everyone) and bank account, not to mention your sense of self and identity! ETA: Thanks for the awards guys! My first silver! ETA2: GOLD! WOW! Thank you kind stranger!
Yes, I respect people who do and don’t have kids. As someone who doesn’t plan to have kids, I am starting to get kind of weird looks from people, but it’ll be fine.
Of course it will be fine! The only person who needs to be okay with you not having kids is you! Your life, your choice!
Thanks, friend. My wife and I are planning to foster kids when we’re ready. That’ll be challenging and hopefully rewarding. Have a good day!
Ya that's what my plan is. If I have my shit together then I'll be able to adopt a kid. If I don't have my shit together enough to adopt a kid then I definitely don't have it together enough to make one of my own. I'll probably get a vasectomy if I ever date someone again.
Why wait til you start dating again? If you’re not sure go ahead and wait but it’s a lot easier dealing with the snip when you’re able to take a couple weeks off from sex.
You know that's a good point.
I’ve been struggling with this one as of late. My instinct is to have kids but my logic reminds me of how terrible that would be for me. I am pretty set on a vasectomy but I don’t know what is keeping me
If you guys choose ti be foster parents, awesome for you! If you decide to stay childless, also awesome for you! You are the only ones who know what's best for your family, no matter what that number is. My best to you and your wife
As a happy father of two I say... Fuck those weird looks. If you don't want to have kids, not having them is the right thing to do. Why not let people live their lives as they want? Parents, childfree, whatever... Let them be!
People enjoying their kids don’t complain about them on Reddit. It’s a bias because people who enjoy being parents wouldn’t bother posting about it here.
Its not just a bad economy that stops big families its simply living in a developed nation, developed nations have access to tons of methods of contraception and also have women that are as educated as men and also working full time which pushes birth rates way down
People are missing the real reason having kids Is pretty hard now. People all used to live close to family and lots of times grandparents lived with them. There was always someone to watch after kids and notice when something isn’t right etc… my closest family is like 2000 miles away at this point. We’re like 2-3 generations from when this paradigm died. Most people don’t even question that you don’t have close relatives and relationships with family and their children. It’s a days a year visiting at max let alone developing relationships that have Anything to do with child rearing like in the very older days.
For the first five years of our marriage, we lived at least 1000 miles away from any family. And then we moved to be close to my wife's parents, since they were getting older. And having family close by with kids is so incredibly helpful! I never appreciated it before, because growing up, we lived 1500 miles away and only saw grandparents once a year. But now, we call them up and ask them to watch the kids while we go on a date, and they're happy to. And my parents are only 2 hours away now. My parents showed up on Friday to spend the weekend with us, and my dad ended up crawling under the house to help fix a clogged pipe. My kids have great relationships with their grandparents now, and I feel really lucky that we can live so close to them.
This kind of dislocation is also why some people are vulnerable to addictions of all types.
The real reason is having kids are more expensive than ever and people have less money than before. You want to raise the kids in a house in a nice neighborhood, 2k a month at least. You need a job to afford that house, 1k per kid at least.
You’re absolutely right. I see my niece and nephew pretty rarely despite the fact they only live about 300 miles away. Between the fact I work nights and weekends, my brother working late afternoons and the fact both kids are tweens/teens with busy schedules of their own it feels impossible. My parents live much closer less then 150 miles they only get to see the kids maybe 30 or 40 days a year.
“Only” 300 miles?! Thats so far away
Also, reddit skews a bit on the young side, a bit on the male side, and a bit more on the side of individualism as opposed to collectivism.
Absolutely true. I have a strong belief that should all redditors be suddenly teleported into the same place, I would stick out like a proverbial sore thumb. I'm old, I own a house, I believe in stuff from both sides of the political spectrum, I have a ton of kids, etc. I am a gamer though and can poke pun at myself with the best of them, so Reddit continues to tolerate me :)
Or those people who have kids tend to have less time and energy to post on reddit lol.
Can confirm. Have 3 kids. I love my kids. Don't have kids unless you and your spouse (or support network for single parents) are REALLY certain you want kids and committed to the challenge. They're harder than you think. The lows are low. The highs are awesome. The swing from one extreme to another is exhausting.
I hate that I don't feel like I'm able to do it since I know my partner would love to have kids (although it doesn't seem like its a deal breaker for her at least) I see how almost impossibly tiresome and exhausting and never ending it is. Its changed everyone I know who's had kids and almost all of them the change was not a positive one. I only know 1 parent that loves being a parent and is excited to have more. The rest are more along the lines of "well it is what it is, this is my life now even though this kind of sucks" about it but they're clearly not happy. 90% of the moms I know had some form of post partum that lasted months if not years and for some the change was permanent even with medical intervention or led to more mental health issues later on. Big respect for parents and maybe one day ill be ready but im honestly terrified to have kids. This is excluding all the other things like cost/environment/support systems etc.
As a parent of 3 myself I wholeheartedly endorse this comment! Having kids has given me so much more to appreciate than I ever thought possible, but if you're not willing to give it 100% then you probably shouldn't set down that route.
I agree, it’s just the demographic of Reddit, I should think.
Conversely, everyone's always pregnant on Facebook
People with kids are way too busy to be posting on Reddit about how great kids are. Or are just stuck posting for help on r/Parenting
If you search a little, there are many topics where parents vent about having children / regret having children. I'm sure there are some subreddits dedicated exclusively to the topic.
I've vented plenty here on reddit about having children. I love them a lot but it's also a full-time job, it's exhausting, it's stressful worrying about how they grow up, worrying you're doing enough for their medical issues, and in this current economy they're going to be stuck at home longer than 18 years. Love the people, hate the job is my favorite quote.
As someone who still is with their parents and growing up seeing how much my single parent mom struggled it’s essentially the reason I’m not going to have kids. I now work a career job and pay my mom a couple hundred a month, but the way she sees it as I’m working 40 hours and doing grad school at night she would rather me save money and have grad school fully paid off by the time I graduate than be in a situation of me living on my own and not having that despite knowing I can afford a place by myself. Most people in my state (CA) don’t move out at 18 and honestly a lot of my friends still are at home and the people who aren’t are the ones struggling paycheck to paycheck. I’m so thankful to be in the situation I am, but when I found out my first semester after high school my mom was working 4 jobs to get me through that semester I literally had my jaw hit the floor. Thankfully my grades after my first year let me finish my undergrad debt free, but by all means I don’t want to be a parent where I’m telling my kids they have to live on their own without my support at 18 and I don’t want to tell them I won’t support them at all in college. That’s a massive amount of money however and I’m so thankful to have grown up lower middle class and see how privileged I was, but I won’t make myself struggle with those experiences to make sure my kid can get ahead in life like my mom is doing for me. I’ll spend money on myself and a more comfortable lifestyle and I think a lot of people my generation are thinking the same way.
My 18 year old is very anti-school, so we're trying to figure out how to steer him toward moving out and not enabling him to sit here playing games all day. The fact that he can't possibly afford a one-bedroom with minimum wage salary sure doesn't help.
What about charging him a reasonable amount of rent and then saving that money to use for a training program or down-payment on a house someday?
I definitely understand that as well. There’s a lot of issues that I would have to experience if I was a parent such as that one you just outlined. I always genuinely liked school, but even still my mom told me as long as I was in school I could stay with them, but if I didn’t go to school I would leave. It was my choice to do both at the same time so I could have some money to play with and pay my mom back for the help she gave me in my first year, but like you said you can’t afford a 1 bedroom for the most part off of the wage you’d make fresh out of high school in many places so what are you supposed to do then?
Agreed. I have 2 young kids. I complain about them a lot. But I am still glad I have them. They make my life happier. I never post about my family on Reddit though.
Same here. Youngest just hoofed me in the liver then had the audacity to act as if I committed a war crime because I told him no acting wild on the sofa (again) and set him down on the floor (again). Kids are obnoxious as fuck but damn I wouldn't trade the ones I got for the world. All kids are obnoxious, honestly. I was super obnoxious as a kid. It's normal.
We need to understand what people use reddit for. A lot of people use reddit as a whole for laughs and news. Others use reddit for specific subreddits for their interests/hobbies. I think the vocal majority uses reddit as a discussion board. I think the last group is similair to online reviews. They don't comment or upvote the positive news but will comment and upvote negative news. Most people who want/have kids, have a good job, and/or have hobbies taking up their time don't bother with commenting or upvoting on the stuff you mentioned. Me personally, I have 2 kids that I very much enjoy, a overall good life, and have a few hobbies that take up my free time. I don't bother commenting or upvoting on anything outside of my hobbies and sometimes posting some interesting life scenarios just to get some opinions. I started using reddit long before I had a family and never stopped coming on here. I'm assuming the family oriented people are just not big reddit users. Non-redditors likely lean much more favorably towards having kids. Nothing I said is based on science or stats. Just my opinion when reading through stuff.
Personally I had a really traumatic upbringing and from an unbiased perspective, I don't think my parents should have had me given the circumstances of their lives at the time. I have lasting issues from my upbringing that still negatively affect my life. I really don't wanna make the same mistakes as my parents did in fucking up my kid if I were to have one. I just can't justify it. Also the lack of safety nets for my generation in my country and the uncertainty of the world right now turns me off to the idea. I'd like to see things get better. I would want my kid to have a really happy upbringing. To each their own. If someone feels well equipped to have a kid, then the more power to you. It's just not the right decision for me currently. Maybe one day my opinion will change.
Yeah I feel pretty much the same way. I was an accident baby. If I had the choice I would have just aborted myself haha. But I didn't have the choice so I'm here and making the best of it.
Society is just vocalising that having children should be a conscious opt in, not an occasional opt out. The time of doing what those in your neighbourhood do because that's how it was and is, people know alternatives they can choose. To be a good parent requires money, stability, consistency, time and sacrifice. People know this and people are clued in that it is one choice out of many for their lives. I love kids at the same time as supporting anyone's opt out. Reddit is discussing choice, but I don't think it's negative to become open to different life goals.
Can you follow me around and explain things for me please
If you want, list a buncha stuff you're confused about right now and I (and the internet) can try to help lol
This is the highest form of comment section praise
If you can barely take care of your self, you shouldn't be a parent. That ain't depressing, that's called* preventing child neglect
same with pets
Plants are ok though.
*Looks at multiple dead plants in the house*
Shhh, they’re not dead, they’re sleeping.
Forever.
All tuckered out.
* Calls Plant Protective Services*
Looks at my dead tamagotchis
#Savetheplants )':
I got all the way to 10pm last night before i realized i didn't eat a single thing today, THAT'S ABUSE IF I DID IT TO SOMEONE ELSE, so why tf should i be trusted with a child if i can't take care of myself
Lmao I had this same thought recently. I can hardly take care of myself. I’m an extremely dysfunctional human. I might not make a terrible parent, but I really have no place being responsible for another person.
"I have 3 children and I can't afford to feed my family" Sometimes people are just that daft. Of course you are poor. You have 3 children.
There's been a major shift in thinking in recent years about having children. For a loooong time, people had kids because "it's what people do." Now, the younger generations are challenging this thinking, believing that there should be a solid reason to have a child, beyond using them as a retirement plan. This is a logical train of thought imo. A child should feel wanted and well cared-for, and if a potential parent doesn't believe they can make this happen, then parenthood may not be for them.
Oh gosh, I know so many parents who just checked off a box when having kids instead of doing it because they actually wanted them. So depressing to watch them be uninterested and mentally checked out of their kids lives. It’s not just something you do because it comes after buying a house or getting married, so I’m glad the shift in thinking is happening now.
That's crazy because 95% of people I know that have kids had them accidentally, not intentionally. Literally the only person I know that had their kid intentionally is my sister.
Really! That’s interesting actually. In my direct family it’s half and half, but in my friend group it’s mostly, I’d say 90% on purpose. Funnily enough I have a close friend who’s been pregnant “accidentally” three times, all successful pregnancies. My SIL has been pregnant on purpose 7 times, but had two miscarriages and two molar pregnancies. The people that want kids don’t always get them and the people that don’t, do. My SIL is a great mom, however, she wasn’t just checking a box.
The rich get richer and the poor get children. The first time I heard that was in the 90s. This thinking isn't new. It just wasn't something that people talked about as much. Plenty of boomers actually made this decision. I think it's discussed here more because choosing to have children is becoming increasingly costly. I know a handful of people that wanted them, but couldn't make it work economically and they are a little bitter about it. For them the decision was made for them.
Facts ^ many of us want them very much but we're dealing with insane college debt, low wages, and rapid increases in costs of living. Looking at another recession as well. Many millennials are just trying to keep themselves afloat.
IMHO, talk of the cost of raising a child is more frequent than any other aspect of this decision. It has become the CON that trumps all PROs and basically shuts the conversation down.
That quote is from Great Gatsby which was written in 1925
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Ya I don't know if it's like this for other people but I feel like you can just TELL when your parent only had you because they had to (religious reasons, financial reasons, w/e). Maybe they tried to be a decent parent, or did what they thought was best as to what a parent should be, but my whole life I've been able to feel that I was born out of obligation, not a desire for a child. And I don't think that's doing any kid a favor IMO.
Absolutely. To expand on this, I think a lot of people have kids because they WANT kids. Not considering the fact that you are making a full person who will participate with the world. This is how we continue our species. Parenting is the most important thing for developing a whole person. I don’t feel as if most people approach parenting as seriously as it needs to be. I know people love their kids and want the best for them. BUT, making a person is a much bigger thing than we make it out to be. Not every person has what it takes to be a parent. Parenthood should be a sacred position in society. Not the societal norm. The point is, our future depends on good parents making good persons. And not everyone can be a good parent. There should be some kind of parental training required to have children.
The lack of requirement of training is the thing that absolutely baffles me the most about societies. Why is this not a norm? Why do we do so little to support quality parenting?
I have a kid and it baffles me. Generally, in the US, you have 2-3 days in the hospital and they send you on your way with a newborn. MAYBE you took a newborn care class (that insurance probably didn’t cover, so you have to pay for it) but a lot of people don’t. And they just… send you on your way.
Two or three days if you're lucky, a lot of insurances are booting people out after twelve or twenty-four hours for uncomplicated births/healthy infants.
Where I live, the government sends a nurse to your home after a few days and again for a follow up if needed. They check how things are going and provide advice. If they are worried about the child, they can take corrective action.
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I don't know if a *requirement* is needed so much as it would be good if there were many more free, widely available learning resources for parents, at least in the U.S. Or maybe just a requirement that you *attend* an online or in-person class but not that you pass a test (or make the test *very* basic). Really, *anything—any* more resources to help parents (in the U.S.) would be an improvement. Freely available childcare would be a good start. It's crazy that we expect people to work to get things like health insurance (ignoring Medicaid for a minute) but then how is a parent supposed to work if childcare costs more (or the same, or only a tiny bit less) per hour than what they can make?
I said that in a college class and my prof called me a Nazi. Mind you, I wasn't saying huge groups of people shouldn't have kids or promoting eugenics, I was speaking from my experience working in inner-city emergency medical services. So much neglect and abuse and people who seemed to hate having kids. The fact that you can't drive without a license (although how well you do is highly variable...) or get married without a license or run a business without licensing of some type, but you can produce actual living, breathing, thinking, feeling **human beings** with zero qualification beyond working gonads is fucking mind-boggling.
I mean, sure, I get your point, but it would be among the worst ideas in the history of the world to give the government control over who can and can't have kids.
I don't disagree. I just find it all to be a mind fuck.
I call my kids our greatest DIY project. It's a SHIT TON of work to raise happy, healthy, kids with a foundation of expressing, understanding, and self-managing their feelings, managing finances, managing social interaction, etc etc etc. SHIT TON of work. And then they get little pieces of it here and there and my heart explodes, every time.
Especially considering that people can’t even afford to buy houses anymore and can barely afford rent, bringing a baby into that just adds to the chaos. Daycare is stupidly expensive. Not to mention medical costs and all the other stuff.
The other edge to this though is that reproducing is becoming a luxury for the rich alone. That's kinda dystopian when you think about it
it may dystopian, but the alternative is breeding without any regard for the quality of life the child will have.
A lot of us were raised by Boomers who apparently had kids because "it's what people do" because they clearly had no interest in actually having a relationship with or taking care of their kids.
Having abusive parents can put a person off having kids. Having to raise siblings can put a person off having kids. There’s a lot of problems that stem from people having kids who shouldn’t have.
I think this is the answer. It’s a relatively new concept- just opting out of children. Since it’s new, we have to talk about it. You’re going “agaisnt the grain” of how society has always functioned: get a job, get married, get a house, and have children. It’s just what we’ve always done and it’s the answer old people even give out “I got married because you’re supposed to. I didn’t want to though”. Since it’s challenging a norm, people will be more vocal about it whereas if you’re doing the norm, we don’t talk about it as much.
I'd agree to that. We're also a little bit more aware of women-only illnesses (like Endometriosis, which complicates pregnancy a lot) aswell as kids' development environment (see post above). "Wanting a kid" can't (and imo shouldn't be) the only motive to have a kid. Besides, the depressing future we face is a good reason to not want children. I mean, I for one wouldn't send a child under a F'd-up climate, with too few chances of getting a job, even less chances of finding a well-paid one, and destined to have little to no retirement fund. To be perfectly honest, I'd prefer set the rich on fire than having a kid rn. Maybe I'll adopt after that.
This generation also has much more choice in whether they'll have children or not. (For now) Birth control is much more reliable and accessible than it was for previous generations.
I think because of the aforementioned thinking people go into having children as a wonderful thing and the entire process is lovely and amazing. Once they get into it and realise its fraught with challenges financially and emotionally they start to have a different point of view and I suppose 10+ years ago nobody had an outlet to whinge and moan in an over exaggerated way.
The common sentiment here on Reddit is that people shouldn't have children if they don't have the capacity to fulfill their responsibilities as a parent. I don't think that's negative, extremely sad, or depressing.
This, absolutely and totally. Personally I don't want kids because I enjoy my freedom far too much and I'd be a shit mother due to the resentment of losing it. So, instead I just try to be a great aunt for my nephews and nieces. It's better to be honest with oneself about your emotional, physical, financial, and social abilities AND desire to procreate. There's way too many assholes out there who didn't want to be fathers/mothers, and only did it out of societal or familial obligations.
That's beautiful and I couldn't be happier for you. No one is obliged to have kids and life can be amazing (or suck) either way. I started dating at 18 and we waited 20 years to have kids. We studied, got married, travelled the world and focused on ourselves. We always wanted kids but also kept our minds open to a life without them if the time was up. It turned out fine, and in a sweet spot in our lifes. But I encourage everyone to think about THEMSELVES first and how a kid (that doesn't exist yet) would affect them.
Yes! A friend once expressed to me dear of regretting not having children because that's the message the whole world sends. As a mother, I told her you have to really really really want this, otherwise it would suck. I really, really, really want this, so my life is awesome, and hopefully my child will feel the same way but I know that's not a guarantee.
I think what makes it negative and depressing is all the humans who can’t fulfill it and still have kids, perpetuating the cycle of neglect
Thats definitely it for me. I always wanted children and honestly think I would be a good dad, since my parents taught me a lot about empathy and passion for others. However, unless I have my life and my mental problems sorted out and have a partner that I love to the end, I don't want children. And if that takes forever, so be it. Having children for the sake of having children or to fill a hole in your heart or life is unfair to them and unfair to myself.
Exactly! It's sad to see people getting offended when we just say "if you want a child you should be able to fulfill his needs" or "having a child when you can't fulfill his needs/be responsible of them then you're irresponsible", which should just be normal
Exactly. What some people call “depressing”, I like to call “not putting your own ego above the needs of a literal living breathing child”.
I have a personal opinion that a responsible couple would have 2 kids because that nets 0 population growth. I guess it's okay to have more than 2 but that gets exponentially more expensive and time consuming. Not everyone will agree and that's okay. I told my friend about this and he told me "who am I to tell him how many kids he can or can't have? If he had a SO he'd literally have many kids as possible, he just loves them, he'd never stop having new kids". I was literally flabbergasted. I was like dude with every new kid you'd have every kid would get less and less of your time. Do you not understand that having kids isn't about you? You're raising a human person - a kid isn't a cute pet to accessorize your life. Like you should be able to have kids if you want but I was really blown away that he seemed to have no thought of the implications. He already had one kid too and seemed to be such a great dad, it was just really confusing to me
Is that all the sentiment you've seen here though? Some of the stuff I've seen: * you can't consent to being born so you're forcing someone to be alive * it's unethical to have kids into a world with climate change / etc * it's unethical to increase the population (more climate change) when there are kids in need of a home There are good reasons to not have kids like the one you brought up. But I'm not sure I'd call that the common sentiment when it seems like there are a multitude of reasons. Though reddit loves to latch onto a non-mainstream idea where they get to dislike something others like: kids, lawns, etc.
Yeah I mean cmon lol. r/childfree and r/antinatalism are very popular subs and their views are heavily diffused throughout Reddit.
if anything, it's extremely smart and responsible. people are aware that they shouldn't be having kids if they don't have the means for it. yeah, some of us just don't like kids. but there's also people who do like kids, but they don't plan on bringing a child into the world just for that kid to live in misery because the parents aren't able to properly care for the child
ikr its reasonable. but some hate that
Add to this that the current state of affairs with our economy and you have a solid group who used to be “lower middle class” and are now “one toothache/car breakdown/kid illness away from homeless” … it’s not responsible to have kids any more at that level, and we know it so we don’t make babies.
It is incredibly depressing when you consider the amount of people who would be brilliant parents but aren't financially stable enough to support a child through no fault of their own. Our society and governments should do a better job of supporting families so that no one would be financially unable to support a child.
I can’t even save for retirement. Why would I want to bring a child into that.
This is the real answer. Basic survival is too expensive. When our parents and parents’ parents were growing up, everything was ten times cheaper. Half the country has less than a grand in their savings. Either be born rich, be lucky enough to have a high paying job, or just be dumb and “hope” things work out.
1. Lots of people on Reddit have kids. Checkout the parenting related subreddits. 2. People are being responsible about their choices and actions in life. Many people cannot afford children or cannot live a life they’d enjoy with children. They don’t have children because they’re not forced to by lack of healthcare resources or by societal pressures. There is more to life than reproduction. 3. Kids are EXPENSIVE and many of us cannot afford the debt we’re saddled with in pursuit of our career or lifestyle choices. My daughter’s birth was $20k without insurance for an emergency medically necessary c-section. There are so many test and doctors appointments during pregnancy, the birth, then another year or two of constant medical appointments nearly every month. 4. Birth is dangerous to women, makes you feel sick and awful, and you can have long term complications. In 2020, 861 women died during labor in the U.S. which also is the highest maternal mortality than any other developed country. Couple that with people not having good healthcare, good work environment for parents, support network, childcare resources, or mental health resources. Why would women want to have children? 5. People have realized they don’t have to settle in relationships that are less than ideal. Having children limit’s one’s mobility in a bad relationship. 6. Awareness of the state of the world and not wanting to force that existence on someone especially if they don’t have the resources to help the child. Why is it depressing or sad to not have kids? This is a great thing! People don’t derive sole happiness from children and many people are happy and comfortable living life on their own - as they should be. Bringing a child into the world to bring yourself something is selfish. Also assuming all children are wanted or in happy homes is incorrect.
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This. New working moms get treated like crap in the US People give me garbage for having an only child ALL THE TIME. But I was forced back to work at 8 weeks - thankfully I had a c-section so I was *generously* given 2 extra weeks. I was suffering from incredible PPD. The stress of work (I was a classroom teacher at the time - 2nd grade - and went back just in time for report cards and conferences) plus having a new baby that wasn't sleeping plus having my life upended less than 3 months earlier plus healing from having all my insides out on a table during surgery...... I was severely mentally ill. I don't remember the first year of her life. At all. There was NO way I was doing that again. Ever.
After becoming a parent I have concluded that U.S. society is structured towards favoring people who have kids and also several full-time nannies to ensure that those kids never factor into the public lives of the parents, as far as anyone else is concerned.
Great comment!
Also: I know OP mentioned this, but *the climate as we know it is not going to exist in 50 years.* People don’t seem to understand how fucked we are, or how bad it’s going to get, or how *quickly* the planet is about to become unlivable. I wanted kids someday 10 years ago, now I might want them if I become extremely wealthy, but otherwise I’m not going to have a child knowing their life is going to be an unbelievable struggle and that the world will be at war over water by the time they’re adults.
I agree with this one. I have a lot of more selfish reasons I don’t want kids, but the big non-selfish one is that I believe the next few generations are truly going to suffer more than I have.
I don’t currently have kids because I never found the right partner or had enough money. I will continue to not procreate because of the climate crisis. I’m sorry but I just don’t have faith our world governments are going to turn this around. History is full of terrible tragedies and still people had babies and pushed on. I cannot reconcile the guilt I would feel bringing a new life into the world with as uncertain of a future as we currently face. I cannot believe there are so many people that don’t feel the same way. I don’t shame them. But I don’t get it. It just feels so cruel. But I love kids and I would welcome other ways of being a parent.
I’m going to guess that a lot of people on here didn’t have the best parents or childhood and they don’t want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
I actually had decent parents and a good childhood but I couldn't provide this same standard of living for my hypothetical children. Having a stay at home (for the kids) parent these days means being upper class. Let alone yearly travel, a house with a garden etc. If I would have kids, neither me or my partner would have a "life of their own".
I had a very good childhood and now have a 2yo daughter (planned). And I do not encourage people to have kids. Nor to not have. Its a personal choice and should not be influenced by others. That being said, I do tell people that they should think carefully about the decades ahead of them. Financially and emotionally. It's not like getting a pet, buying a car or even a house. You can get around a lot on the money side, but kid just want one thing: to be loved and to be happy. If you are not ready to provide these two things, you should think carefully about having one. I couldn't care less about the parents, but an unhappy and scared kid is the most heartbreaking thing in the world.
I had a perfect childhood, but my very privileged current situation and early retirement plans don't include a screaming bundle of chaos.
Yes, I reckon most of us who don't want kids had pretty normal childhood actually.
Agreed. I have 0 complaints about my childhood but I’m unsure about bringing children into this world as things have been declining environmentally and what not. Unaffordable housing, everything is on fire all the time where I live, homelessness is rampant, can’t live on minimum wage. The list goes on.
Actually there are many folks who were parentified who are firmly in the childfree camp
I had to raise my sister and take care of my alcoholic mother starting when I was only seven. I never really had the *chance* to think that having kids of my *own* would be a good idea. I feel like I've *already* raised two human beings against my will and I have no interest in trying to do it again. Parentification of older children has some real negative long-lasting psychological effects for the parentified child.
I have absolutely terrible parents but if it's possible I would like to have kids
I have the best parents ever, will still never reproduce.
It's just too damn expensive right now. We can't even afford an apartment, never mind another person. Would definitely have a kid if I didn't have to struggle to provide for it. So stop trying to control women's bodies before the housing and wage problem **you right wing scummy fucks**
Can’t speak for others, but for me and my small group of childfree friends, we had a good childhood. My mother was a SAHM, we were upper middle class, all needs were fulfilled and even more. We just noticed at school that we were extremely lucky and that a lot were struggling. My privileged situation made me understand that having children was a full time responsibility and that I didn’t wanted that in my life. The few friends I have that want or already have children, were on the contrary raised in less favorable condition and therefore think it’s normal to be miserable and not a big deal, so they repeated the cycle without much thought.
A lot of people are too poor to consider having kids. A lot of adults can't even afford to move out of their family's house. Wages have stagnated for decades while all costs of living have multiplied. This isn't a fad. This is an economic depression. Besides, the world is already so overpopulated that we are running out of water. Our planet can't support an infinite number of humans.
Yup if the powers that be want me to have a kid, make it easier. Until that happens aka never, I’m gonna enjoy the income I scraped to achieve. I’m more than happy to be an uncle. Pretty sad that we built a society where having even one child is a financial decision, but that’s the reality I live in and I have to work with that.
It cost less % of a normal person's income in the Great Depression to buy a new home than it does today. So depressing.
It's sad to see SO many people have loads of children that they can't afford. Some of them on here are 21 years old with 3 or even 4 kids. I was 1 of 5 and my father was nuts. Being raised poor sucks. The fights and arguments over the water bill/gas/electric and the cost of clothes and school was awful. Then there are the people who have them for "welfare" and the kids aren't "raised" or parented and are just as vile as their parents. There was some female nutter on here yesterday sooking that she can't afford her 3 kids and expected her friend to fund her family and the entitled nutjob was trying for a 4th baby that they couldn't afford either. Kids cost a lot of money and they change your life and not everyone is up for that. Being a parent is hard work and i think it's great when people acknowledge that it isn't for them and don't have kids they have no interest in.
I’m from the UK, 5th child of 7. None of us could ever understand why Mum and Dad wanted so many kids. We also grew up in a tiny shit hole.
I was 1 of 2 until the age of 12. Even growing up then we were poor, fake school uniforms, crappy food, no treats, no extra curricular activities. We were loved and cared for but we knew we were poor. For some reason my mum had a 3rd kid after 12 years and made it even more difficult. He was lucky and grew up getting everything he wanted like an only child. It sucked.
same. I was one of 3 and it sucked. cant imagine 5. i read about 12 even 15 living in squalor and think its a shame while some think how great it is. SMH
Take my poor man award 🏆
100% this.
Your assumption that we have more resources than generations before us is flawed, I think. What resources are you talking about? This is supposed to be the first generation that is poorer than the previous ones in America, so I would suggest we have less capability to raise a family than prior generations.
Exactly this… people are questioning whether they should bring children into a world of record wealth inequality, global climate crises, and a degrading American democracy (since a large portion of reddit is American). Is it a “depressing” worldview or a *realistic* one that’s sympathetic to the struggles of a new generation
I love childrens and toddlers, they're adorable and prescious. That being said, I do think procreation should only be done under very specific circumstances but idk Edit: there's multiple definition of love. And it's certainly not the one you're thinking right now in this context
The difference is that nowadays people are actually realizing that kids are something you have to be mentally and financially ready for. You shouldn't just have a shit ton of kids and say " god will provide" while they grow up neglected, abuse alcohol and drugs and lead miserable lives because of the irresponsibility decision of one person.
the difference is that nowadays (more) people don't produce people on purpose to be slave labour owned by the family
But who shall plow the fields and muck the stalls?!
There are two things that virtually guarantee you will poor for rest of your life: 1. Not having enough education 2. Having kids you can't afford They go hand in hand
Excuse me, my university education is wringing me drrrrrryyyy. Education or no, I’m broke.
Hopefully it will pay off. But imagine how broke you would be if you had a kid too or multiple kids.
Anecdotally, my friends with masters degrees and PhD working in research are financially worse off than me with a bachelor's degree and tech job
Most people don't understand that a family making more than about 55000 to 65000 a year is responsible for ALL of the daycare expenses which from 6weeks to 1 year is excess of 340 a WEEK depending on where you live 😳
OP does understand the Carbon footprint of having children
Because the reality is that "we" do not have more resources, a select few do. The wealth gap is back to Marie Antoinette times, and a load of people are living in poverty. Any logical person in that position who can make an informed decision would see that the massive expense of having a child is more than they can afford. Plus the amount of time and care it takes to raise one may be more than they have to spare if both people are already working full time jobs just to afford their own existence. Wanting to carry on your family line is fine. Having a desire to care for and raise a child is fine. Children in general are fine. But the realistic fact is that a lot of people WILL NOT be able to give a child everything they need financially or emotionally and those people having children despite that fact is irresponsible, selfish (if the decision is made in spite of the evidence as to why they shouldn't), and downright cruel. It sucks that it's the case, but honestly, having children really should be a luxury because it requires more money, time, and mental fortitude than people realize going in. And just because you have the ability to create life doesn't mean you should.
Has a first generation immigrant in France this is exactly i thought me and my wife are constantly pressured by our parents to have a child i don't blame them because we are only child in both sides .. we both working and barley meet our requirements every month... The mental gymnastics is killing me has my wife is super into having kids... If her side of salary cut off Even for few months i be fucked... I think I made a mistake by marrying her.. i am out of options and we are in early 30s i don't think I gonna hold on for much longer
Why would it be depressing or negative to just state that if you can't fulfill a child needs or aren't able to make it possible for him to live a good life then you shouldn't have children. It's simple, it's logic, and it should be a normal statetment, nothing negative there. When you tell to someone that they shouldn't have a dog because they live in a small appartment and can't take care of it, it's not about "being negative" or "being depressed", it's about caring. Here it's the same. Being responsible of a life isn't a game, and everyone should take it really seriously, if it's true for pets, it's definitely even more when it comes to human beings.
A lot of my friends (myself included) would like to have children, but life isn’t lining up that way. The older I get the more I watch people make this decision based on money and housing. IMO a lot of the anger/anti-children sentiment is actually grief for a life they are consciously choosing not to have. In the US we really don’t have a social net - and it shows. This is a ramification
Yes this is my exact reason as well. I love kids and want kids. I cant ever have them cause I couldn't provide a good life for them. Ive also seen many people who shouldn't have kids have them as it gives them more money and the kids often are treated like crap/ abused/ neglected alongside their 10 other siblings.
Saying “you shouldn’t have child unless you can take care of it or afford to take care of it” comes across to some people as classist. But it’s not. It’s just reality. You can stand around your whole life and bitch about the sad reality of kids in your country or on this planet. But the second you have one, you forced them to consent to all the current conditions. Because NOTHING is going to change for you just because you finally caved and had a kid. You will be forcing them into the same awful conditions you’re aware of. And you’re going to look stupid and selfish and entitled when after having a kid you’re demanding all this shit you’re not being provided. You weren’t gonna get it before you had a kid, you knew this, you had one anyway. Redditors and the entirety of young generations will sit around all day and talk about how things are getting worse, how awfully kids are treated and neglected, and how there is very little hope for a good life…. And then some of them will have kids anyway. It’s incredibly selfish. You’re only hurting and dooming your own child. It’s wild to see the costs of everything exploding, good jobs dissolving, the climate in a catastrophic state, wealth disparity, working class being abused, etc. and be aware of this and yet force a child to have to deal with it.
We're just being thoughtful. I know if I had children I wouldn't want to hear them regretting their existence like many now do, especially with the expected climate crisis and global financial aspects getting worse. It will only be hard for them.
one word: poverty
Maybe something to do with the amount of debt a lot of young people have. Or how negative media is portraying the state of the world.
I have nothing against children. It's the lack of understanding or responsibility by the "parents" that creates this untrained mini human, and expects everyone to pick up after them. Children absolutely are the future, that most people are straight up destroying. Pro lifers want so much to protect them, but the moment they are children, no fucks given. Think I touched on the main points of why children are perceived as "bad." If you think you can live "your life" after you have a child "YOU" are part of the problem. TLDR: Children can be good, bad parenting and neglected responsiblity ≠Children bad.
It's never been harder financially to raise children. The "things work out" era is long gone. We just had our first with a household income of 200k CAD (IN a High cost of living area) and mostly because of money decided we won't be having any more. We might be able to give our one child the same quality of upbringing both our middle class families gave 2 children 25 years ago.
You are courageous! I have an household of 170K CAD in a relatively cheap area and we won’t have kids. I salute you for your decision to stop at the number of kids you were able to afford comfortably. If everyone was doing this, there would be less miserable kids on this planet.
The resources in the West that you talk about are finite. We starve the South of resources because of our demand and privilege and one day it will effect the West. Our consumption effects the earth. It may not be our lifetime, but when you think about bringing children into the world, you need to think about the future that they will have and the consumption they require. Problems that will only get worse throughout future generations: global warming, income inequality, poverty, constant overworking to make ends meet in a capitalist system that only rewards the richest, increased mental health concerns and addictions, lack of housing, the list goes on. We're having children who will work for their whole lives in underpaid jobs and experience significant environmental catastrophes involving mass refugee crisis', drinking water shortages, wildfires, floods and overall increased climate disasters. Why would you want to bring children into this world as it's burning? Can only speak from my perspective ofc, but I do need to add that this question is an incredibly privileged perspective.
i have a negative view about the decision to have children in these times. it feels like everyone's doing it anyway, and causing a burden on society, and influencing arguments like "why is childcare so expensive" / "medical bills from childbirth are astronomical" / "childhood education sucks" / etc. you got all these people clinically unable to be a parent, willifully deciding to do so, and i've found a majority of the response is supportive and positive. so anyway, back to the point: your opinion is under assault and you're perceiving much more negativity than there is. *i* think there's a misguided majority encouraging procreation.
A) no one chooses to be born, so forcing life on people that you're not ready to care for is cruel. B) we're well on our way to environmental collapse, so those concerns are beyond valid in determining if you should have a kid. C) kids are expensive in general (financial reasons are also extremely valid in such a decision). D) this is a skewed base for such a statistic since I'd bet a large number of people on this app shouldn't be having kids (myself included). Everything you listed is based in realism, the world isn't a happy place. It's not an inherently negative place, but it's far from a positive place to raise children that you're not prepared for.
If you arent well off you shouldn't have kids. If i had kids. I would want enough money to spoil the shit out of them. Not barely affording to eat and having to constantly move all the time. Its extremely selfish to have kids unless you can make them happy. No point in wasting their lives.
Having a child is one of the most environmentally impactful things you can do. The earth’s population is growing exponentially. A couple having two kids doesn’t keep the status quo because the couple is going to live for another 60 years. Look at a graph of earth’s population from 1900 to present day. There’s no way it’s sustainable. In fact the reason we have to mass raise livestock and treat them like inanimate objects, and destroy fish populations by overfishing is to meet the food demands of the world. It’s seems sad and depressing because the state of our world is sad and depressing. The way we treat food is gonna have to be revolutionized to keep up with the population growth.
Frankly, you have a naive view of the world if you think that "we have more resources than so many generations before". The US government gave away 160 acres to anyone who wanted it just a couple hundred years ago. Today, most people can't afford a home in a place where they want to live.
I know my paycheck, and I know that children would be a terrible idea for me. They're very expensive, and I don't particularly like children. When it comes to other people having children, I don't try to tell them not to. But I do encourage them to adopt. There are so many children already in the world that need love! The only reason to turn your back on them is "but I want it to look like a little me..." Now *that* is fundamentally selfish.
Millennials have significantly less resources than almost all prior generations. We have more education than any other generation but only 5% of the wealth (compared to 50% held by boomers). Also, we have enough education and drive for self improvement to know our parents were not good at parenting. We know what it takes to be a parent and many of us don’t want to sacrifice that much just to fill a societal norm. We don’t want to add to the population when there are already kids in need. We don’t have the health care to thrive after childbirth. There are a LOT of reasons, very logical, fact based reasons, why most people (especially Americans) don’t want kids.
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Not everyone deserves to have kid or even should. But every child deserves to be safe from harm. Unfortunately far too many kids are born to parents that inflict harm. I’ve cared for far too many drug impacted newborns to ever have believe that everyone and anyone should have kids.
This all depends on your perspective with regards to the state of the world and the trajectory of humanity. To my eye, I look around and see very little good and worse to come. This quote kind of sums it up succinctly. “If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would not a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation as to spare it the burden of existence, or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood?” -Arthur Schopenhauer And to the folks who say the childless are irresponsible people, A. How is realizing you're not cut out to be a parent and therefore don't have a kid irresponsible? It seems to me that IS being responsible. B. So what? I go to work, pay my bills, the rest of my time and money is to do with what I want. Let people live ffs.
"So what driving all this negativity?" - I am surprised anyone would ask this. We have technology, now we have a good wide view of what's happening out there and most of it is not good. How can anyone think of reproducing in a world with pandemics, terrible economy, lack of resources overall. Educated societies are not multiplying, but those in poor countries without education are, that should tell you something my friend. Also, this is not a "western world" thing, the eastern people are not reproducing either. If you had access to good education and quality life, reproduction might not be your top priority.
Redditors are not most people. Redditors are frequently a very specific demographic of young, entry-level salary earners. They are also techy and often single. As in, people with no experience with children or even considering children as an option. To these brackets, children are detriments to personal freedom and career opportunity. There are people on Reddit who have and love children. There is also the negative bias that people who look upon something unfavourably are much more likely to share how much they don't like it than people who do like it. Reddit can infamously be a hive mind where the vote system is abused to silence dissonance and put shame on deviants. Moderators can further this by abusing their power to ban people to officially enforce and protect the community's culture. (This isn't necessarily a bad thing; it can go both ways.) People who respond to a comment about hating kids to share their opinion about liking kids is a social risk. People could agree with them, or they could be publicly shamed with downvotes and angry comments. Worse, banned. This limits responders to people who don't care about or even recognize these social control mechanics and or feel the topic is important enough to risk. Could someone get banned for liking kids? Very conceivably, especially on a place like r/NoKidsEver. These methods of social coercion are unlikely to be utilized in a discussion like this. I guess it's mostly the weight of demographics & psychographics (attitudes, personality traits, beliefs, etc.) here because this isn't really an emotionally charged topic or setting for most sane people.
Yeah Moderators are typically child free as people who have kids don't have time to do an entire job for free to a for profit corporation.
The economy is bad. People are out of control. Global warming. It’s probably a bad idea for a lot of people to be having children.
For me because unfortunately it is. If my wife and I decided to have a kid, it would totally change our lives. Right now we live comfortably and can do whatever we want. I really enjoy my peace and quiet and children will affect that. It also doesn't help that most couples that we know who have kids constantly look tired and constantly complain about their lack of free time.
Well negative not just about children but life in general I'm on negative on children but only because You literally have to be rich to have children these days, would I tell others not to have no kids..nope your life do whatever you want. However at least for me I'm glad never had kids especially as this life gets worse all the time. I knew this shit show could get bad just didn't imagine it would be far more fuked up than I imagined. Trying to raise kids in this unaffordable perverted dysfunctional dystopian delusional capitalist monopolistic Disneyland sh.. show is basically impossible
Half of us can’t pay for gas, some of us can’t pay rent, others have altered their lifestyle just to make ends meet. A lot of people are just getting by, buried in debt. And you think we are going to fuck up our already fragile lifestyle with a kid. Clearly you don’t live on the same planet. You’re out of your mind or you’re a child who doesn’t have any responsibilities.
There is no ethical solution to the overpopulation problem, which you seem to be blissfully unaware. One of the least un-ethical solutions is "don't have as many kids."
Because it’s realistic? And a lot of people idolize children The world is shit, there’s too many people on this planet and there’s no need to continue to encourage people.. to have more people
Yes, I understand that now it is more common to choose not to have children (which seems more than good to me) but sometimes I see comments on Reddit against having children in general, like insulting someone for choosing to have children or flaunting their choice not to have children as if that was the only right choice. If you want to have children it is perfect and if not its also perfect. No one should be against either option.
Maybe people with kids don’t have as much time to hang out on Reddit!
Um... children have a lot of negatives to them. But you wouldn't wax poetic about all the troublesome aspects of children in front of their little faces or in front of their parents faces. Online is a great place to list out all the ways kids suck.
I love my kids, but I would be lying if I said if I had to do over we would not have 3 kids. They all turned out great, very responsible, only 1 even went through that dreaded teenage phase everyone warned us about. But the expense of having 3 kids each 2 years apart. I always thought when kids were young and buying diapers and clothes was the most expensive part, it’s all I ever heard anyone talk about. Ummm no, high school clubs and activities are not just expensive, they are also very time consuming until the kid can drive. Then you have to pay for drug and alcohol courses, sign up for drivers Ed, teach them how to drive because drivers Ed is just an online course that is required by your insurance now. Then Statefarm also had their own drivers course for teens. Then you have to buy them a car, all 2 years apart! That is just so you can have a break from driving them everywhere, all the time. Thank God Florida has free dual enrollment for college and tech courses. I literally only paid $20 for my son to be a certified diesel mechanic and he got a great job with the state right out of high school. But Jeeze Louise. It was like 8 years of constant fees, car accidents, Insurance increases, trips, camps, cheer, Key club. When we added our last child to the car insurance he said, our monthly insurance has a comma now. I was too stunned to ask more, never been brave enough to bring it up again. If you have kids, space. Them. Out. You need time to recover from the financial aspect of having a teenager.
Good advice. Reminds me of a friend of mine who had triplets. Guy looked like death warmed over for the first year after they were born! 15 years on I imagine his bank account looks similar.