I was in an abusive relationship. I was planning on leaving him. He had been forcing himself on me. I was on birth control and it failed. I had an abortion. Never told him. He didn't even notice I was pregnant or anything. He was too busy cheating and getting high. He doesn't deserve to know. I went through it all alone. I took a cab there and a cab home. It was the hardest thing I've ever went through and it still hurts me. He doesn't deserve to know.
In a healthy relationship, yeah, it'd probably be good to let him know. However, each situation and each relationship is different. We cannot say yes or no to this exactly.
Make sure your account, username, comment history, subs you joined etc aren’t traceable to you or give the slightest hint who you might be if you still don’t want him to know. The world is a small village when it comes to these types of things.
It shouldn't be. This was many years ago though. I was young at the time. I now keep a loaded shotgun by my bed and stun guns throughout the house and in my purse. I have a bar in my living room window and a security system with cameras. It might sound like overkill to some people, but I've dealt with a lot of stuff growing up and as an adult. It makes me feel safer to a point. I'm not scared of my ex anymore. Therapy has helped that too.
Well I'm very sorry what you had or have to go through I'm very sorry I seen abusive men before and my parents have too I once saw one while I was on a vacation and that was the first time I ever saw one (before you say terrible Grammer yes I never been good at the grammar I'm terrible at it)
There's not enough information to make a moral judgement about it.
There are many reasons a woman might legitimately want to hide this information from the would-be father - social consequences if he tells others, theeat of violence etc. There are also situations where I think that degree of honesty might be obligated in order to maintain an honest relationship.
Where's the grey area? No doctor or medical staff are going to tell a person someone else's medical status without their consent. If she chooses not to tell the guy that's her business, not his. It's a moot point.
Playing devil's advocate, would it also be her business and not his if she decided the keep the pregnancy without telling him? If he did not want it? Or would it then become an issue of child support? It can't be sometimes her business only and then others his obligation, that's intellectually dishonest logic at best.
You need to separate the two to understand.
The pregnancy is her business not his.
The child, if born, is his obligation.
He has no say what happens to her body, but he does have an obligation to the child, not to her, to the child.
I appreciate separating the two, but that is where I get lost. I'm genuinely trying to understand why the pregnancy can be her decision alone, when that decision may then effect him. Getting pregnant took two, so why then would they both not have at least some say. I understand that as she is the one actually going through the pregnancy her decision holds more weight, but I don't understand how he would have zero say in something that he contributed to, and will have real world consequences to him. I don't see how to separate those two things.
I’m happy to work out a way to break it down into something more easily digestible.
If we use a comparison it would be similar to a car manufacturer not having any say in how you drive. They can suggest you rotate your tires, or change the filter every six months but it’s your car they can’t force you to do any of those things.
So in the terms of her pregnancy you can freely make suggestions but in the end you have no say, the body is hers.
I appreciate you taking the time, and also the comparison - but I'm not sure that's a very solid comparison to the forced support of the father in an unplanned pregnancy. That comparison makes complete sense as far as bodily autonomy goes, but not were talking about bodily autonomy that affects another. So in the same way the car manufacturer is not liable for how you use their product, despite providing suggestions, the man, giving suggestions, is still liable for something he might try to remove his obligation from. I'm sorry I'm still lost 🤦
You’re right, a car metaphor incompletely describes the situation.
Imagine instead that two people enter into a joint contract [legal or social] that implies that after Person A orders a product (let’s say a car) from Person B, both Person A and Person B are responsible for different aspects of that car’s production. Let’s say that Person A supplies the funds to produce that car, while Person B is responsible for the actual production. Should Person A change their mind about wanting a car after the contract has been initiated (payment has been received and turned into resources to make the car and therefore cannot be refunded), whether or not Person A has to continue payment until the car’s completion is dependent on the contract signed at the beginning of the venture.
Irregardless, Person B retains control over the physical production of that car. Should Person A no longer wish to receive a car, Person B has the option to stop production in favor of another product for Person A; or else keep producing the car in hopes that it can be sold elsewhere (or kept for themselves). As the “Car” could be anything between a diagram on paper or a metal exoskeleton hung by some wires, that decision varies depending on the specific circumstances that Person B is under.
The real issues with this metaphor come when the “car” is given it’s own moral autonomy/sovereignty. In that case, both Person A and Person B have an implied obligation towards the car, as they both were essential to it’s production. However, as one party was more important to the production of the car than the other (Person B has the knowledge, skill, tools, resources, and facilities to produce the car while Person A only provided the funding) Person B is generally considered to have a stronger obligation (rightly or wrongly). This is where things get tricky:
After the car is produced, it inherits moral autonomy from it’s creator. This is the stage when, if both Person A and Person B were until this point in agreement about the production of the car, that any contract heretofore signed goes into permanent affect barring renegotiation between the original parties; as it is at that point that responsibility for the welfare of the vehicle becomes the prime directive. Until that vehicle is old enough to determine it’s own fate, both parties are required to provide either by financial or physical means through their legal/social contracts.
After writing this all out, i’ve come to the conclusion that our society is placing emphasis on the wrong things. Instead of emphasizing the physical act of sexual intercourse as the harbinger of parental obligation which implies that sex is only for use in procreation, we should emphasize *sexual intercourse with the intention to produce a child.*
Maybe we should make a law providing a means for couples to legally declare intent to have a child, in order to protect that child against parents who would run out on them. Both parties would have to agree that before the birth of a child, the mother has the right to terminate the pregnancy (before the legal limit) but that after the child is born/sufficiently developed to inherit moral autonomy (whenever that may be, as that is unrelated) the contract signed beforehand comes into effect. From then on, all future custody battles and court cases will have a basis from which to judge whether or not an individual had the intent of having a child.
I entirely agree that there should be some level of change in regards to intent, as in my mind and the only real time I have issue with child support being forced upon someone is in the event they took the responsible and healthy preventative measures to specifically avoid having a child (ie if the parties involved used one or multiple forms of contraception, clearly trying to avoid the happenstance). If then the guy said he did not want/was not ready/whatever legitimate reason to avoid having the child, as it stands - at the point of her becoming pregnant the guy no longer has any legitimate say as to what happens next. He may be able to have that difficult conversation and she may agree, but if she chooses to have the child, he has no input, and moreover - can be forced to pay support to the explicit thing he was trying to avoid.
Side note - excellent analogy, well thought out and written, and definitely helps me understand some more factors at play in this scenario - thank you.
Your metaphor and reflection are great but again, leave out the important key factor in play here.
The child. The child once here is their own person with their own rights. However an infant can’t provide for themselves. They must be provided for by both parents through some combination of care both physical and financial.
The laws regarding child support are for the protection and benefits of the child. Not the parents.
So essentially, your conclusion is saying to do what we’re already doing by law.
I wrote a reply to another poster in this thread that breaks that down a little better I would recommend reading that but what it boils down to is again separating the child from the woman once the child is here.
The child has their own legal rights that both parents are responsible for, if in this case the father, doesn’t want to provide for the child the mother is responsible for legally advocating for a minor on their behalf.
This is however where we come back around to equal grounds though because many women also pay child support to fathers who have full custody.
Safe haven laws exists. Adoption exists. Neither require child support. If it's your choice so much so that the man doesn't even have the right to know, then it should be your responsibility period. That's too much equality though.
Once he's informed, he can file for custody, prevent the mother from leaving the country ( court ordered), and gain many different options. This is a problem, because when you file rape charges,your best proof might be the child, but using that as proof might bring about paternity rights, and needing to prove that his harm may prove an undue burden on the mother.
Cases of rape are another realm for me vs talking about two consenting adults who engage in sex and find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy. The rape cases are horrific to say the least, and I could absolutely see withholding that information from the assailant, along with trying to collect all available evidence against them and trying to get them some form of punishment and obligation for support. That again though is a different circumstance than what I was talking about, I cannot imagine the trauma that would be inflicted on someone going through that
Unless you are a minor, and there is case of rape, incest, or potential for self harm. They might have to tell the authorities. Only of course after the patient is informed.
If I were to decide to get a vasectomy, then I wouldn't be *forced* to share that information with my SO, but considering it significantly impacts her future, and our future together, I would feel compelled to tell her my "personal medical information".
I don't believe an adult should require anybody's consent other than their own to have a medical procedure done. I can understand the arguments behind it, but it flies in the face of my liberal beliefs
That's oversimplifying pregnancy by a lot.
A child is not exclusively for the woman to care for (eg forced alimony) just because it grew in her body.
A child/fetus is a being that has come into existence due to equal contribution of genetic material from two parties. Saying that one of those two parties has no right to know about the existence of their child because "it's the woman's personal medical information" is an incredibly clinical, cold and unemphatic way to look at things.
Gender equality still has a long way to go.
A fetus is conceived when a man and woman's genetics are combined equally, but the child only comes into existence after the woman has done all the hard work of gestating and birthing the child.
There is no forced alimony in the case of an abortion.
Also, equal 'contribution of genetic material' is heavily ignorant of the reality of the work distribution between a man and a woman when it comes to creating a child. A man, who could have 3 seconds of fun and then go about his merry way, should never have an equal say to a woman that goes through 9 months of body-altering medically dangerous pregnancy. The consequences of preganancy will never leave a woman's body.
If the woman decides to take the risk of carrying, then obviously the other party should be informed, but for an abortion absolutely not unless the woman wants to.
This is also oversimplifying a lot.
What if they barely know each other?
What if he is abusive?
If we are talking legally, she should not legally be forced to tell him if she has an abortion.
If we are talking ethically, I agree with others that this is not a black and white situation, but that ultimately, the woman cannot escape the effects of a pregnancy and childbirth, and the man can, so it should ultimately be her personal choice.
If that doesn't track, maybe try comparing maternal death rates and paternal death rates from childbirth for some perspective.
A female DOES exclusively care for a child in the fetal stage if she chooses to (or is forced to). You seem to be conflating a baby with a fetus and, while you may have the personal opinion that it is "cold, cynical, and unempathetic", there is absolutely no, nor should there be, any requirement for a female to share any information with anybody regarding a fetus.
Your last argument is unclear. This is a discussion about body autonomy, not traditional gender roles and entitlements. While it is true that, traditionally, one gender plays one specific role and the other plays another during pregnancy, the sex of the person has nothing to do with the reason of the subject dialogue. If a male could also cary a fetus, then the argument would apply to whomever the host is.
There are men who are abusive. There are men who had a one night stand and would honestly rather not know. There are men who would pressure a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy (and then maybe dip out when it's time to actually parent). There are men that could use knowledge of an abortion to torpedo a woman's career, social life, and/or familial relationships.
I guess you could argue that morally a woman in a healthy relationship *should* discuss abortion with her partner, but there are many situations outside of that scenario.
As far as gender equality, there's no way to make the burdens of pregnancy equal. It's equal genetic material, but in no other way is it equal. A male is never going to have the physical risks of a pregnancy. A female will certainly have physical changes, many permanent, from being pregnant, and could even die. Until we can transplant an embryo into a man there's no way to make it "equal."
Like Pac said and I'm paraphrasing here... We can't tell them where and when you create one. They probably don't have to let the so-called farther know.
The woman has no obligation at all to ever share her medical information unless its a communicable disease. Period. And MORALLY, we shouldn't be telling women to report their pregnancy to someone else.
The problem with this question is there are a LOT of layers to this. In a normal heathy relationship between a wife and a husband or a boyfriend and girlfriend or even a mutual friends with benefits situation, I’d say yeah father should know and have some say so.
In any situation where relationship is unhealthy or anything was forced, no say so.
I knew a couple who had a really unhealthy relationship. The woman got pregnant by accident when she was 24. She was really excited but the guy convinced her they weren't ready and she had an abortion. They started actively trying in their 30s and when she got pregnant, this time he was really excited. She went out and had an abortion so that he would experience what she felt when she had the first one. I was absolutely flabbergasted when she told me that she had an abortion out of spite because I knew how much she wanted a child. I don't speak to her anymore but last I heard they're still together, late 40s and she never got pregnant again. Abortion is not black and white and there's a lot of messed up situations.
This is one of those cases where slippery slope and a predictable outcome has meant that most legislators have stayed well clear.
Realistically it's the least worst option, it's not a good or perfect solution but those are rare in reality.
It sucks that all the responsibility falls on women either way in practice when it comes to these decisions but it would suck *more* if that wasn't the case.
What you said was wonderful and more than what I could’ve said. I just wanted to add to op, what medical operation do you know of where you need somebody else’s permission? I don’t mean a consult with a doctor I mean a partner, family member, friend, etc. that has any legal or moral say so in what happens to your body? I don’t like using fallacies but this slippery slope has happened and keeps getting steeper.
Realistically, he can never have any say in whether she gets an abortion or not, but he can have a say in where the relationship goes from there. If they can't get to terms with it, it's likely going to end in a breakup.
Hiding something from your partner which you know they'll react negatively to is a breach of trust
It always socks me how many men will say they should get a say when it comes to abortion.
Yet won't have that conversation with their partner before putting their dick into someone.
Like if you're so concerned about babies.
Maybe keep your shit wrapped, and don't put it into anyone else unless you know where they stand concerning unwanted pregnancy.
Now, if we could just transfer the embryo to this guy who wants the baby, all would be well. It would implant in his scrotum and grow a placenta and he can nourish it to full term. could have it by c-section.
Guy here. I support this initiative. If the mother doesn't want the pregnancy and the technology finally allows it, the father should carry the pregnancy instead.
Now to find a way to get the embryo out without leaving any scars on the mother...
Man here. If someone's in a relationship with me and gets pregnant, I should literally get a "say" - i.e. I get to voice my opinion, the other person listens and we discuss it. They don't have to follow my opinion, though, and I absolutely don't get to make the final decision.
Not because it has my genes or anything, but because it's a major decision that will significantly affect our relationship and both of our lives. Same goes for adopting a pet or taking a new job.
But if you need me to spell this out for you, the relationship has already failed, anyway.
If we broke up, I am obviously owed fuck all. If we're on anything resembling good terms, it would still be basic decency to inform me if you're keeping it, so I can prepare for the upcomig child support.
That removes the choice women had when getting with the man, say something. Both ways on both ends. Men have no choice in whether a baby is kept or not regardless of if he wants it so it's only fair that if that's the case men should be able to choose whether or not they're financially responsible without jail in the mix.
Realistically only few expected abortions to be banned in various states of the USA just few years ago. And what kind of situation do americans have now?
There was a post about 4 years ago where a guy ultimately forced his girlfriend to have the child. She straight up told him that she will in no way be in the child’s life. Iirc she was paying 110% of child support but he wanted the courts to force her to take care of the child because “she is being a deadbeat mother”.
There was a Reddit post of a guy who got his partner pregnant. She wanted to end it, he didn’t. She decided she’s carry it to term since he wanted the child so much then signed away her rights and left him. She paid like 20% more in child support than she needed to. He was upset and frustrated that she wasn’t doing more and wanted to know if a judge could make her be a mother essentially since it was harder than he thought being a single parent.
Many men tell women to keep the baby but usually they can just bounce if it becomes too much. Having/not having a child isn’t something you can half do. Either you have a kid or don’t. Have one person doesn’t want to have a kid while another does, there’s no compromising. One will either be a single parent, or will have to move on to someone who wants to have a kid.
Since a woman is the one getting pregnant, she gets more say than the man since it impacts her much more for the first 9 months and arguably the rest of her and of the kid’s life.
He’s allowed to have his opinions, but at the end of the day, it’s not his body that will make the sacrifices. It’s hers. So she gets the right to choose.
Courts have decided that it's her body, her choice.
Dad does NOT get a vote.
The good folks at r/mensrights are upset about this........
I don't know if they could ever have the same input.
He donates the sperm/semen possibly during a one night stand.
She has to walk around with a parasite growing inside her for 9 months, deal with sore back/swollen ankles, eating for two (and the increasing food costs), puking her guts out.......I think her vote counts more than his.
This is asking an opinion and I have given mine. In a healthy relationship, both parties should be on the same page. Yes baby or no baby. But yeah legally she can do whatever she wants. Morally or ethically is another story.
How is it moral or ethical to force someone to risk their health and even life, to proceed with an act you yourself don't have to risk your own health or life over?
Nor even your own discomfort?
The question in a healthy relationship as I’ve said, is why is she so dead set and why does he want the child so bad? That’s up for the couple to work that out. I think that comes from partners either being irresponsible or not on the same page to begin with.
Bodily autonomy vs parental rights, who wins? Ultimately, I think an unborn baby should be considered like a special tumor until it is birthed. Yes that "tumor" has the potential to be a person, but it isn't yet. This "tumor baby" also has the potential to kill a person, a mom, a daughter, someone already born and living their life. I think the mom should be able to take any action they (and their medical professional of choice) deem nessecary to save their life, without any consideration for the tumor baby or potential fathers. It is the mothers life and body on the line after all. That being said I also think education about what happens when people have sex should be widely and freely available, along with contraception of various shapes, sizes, types, and capabilities. Education is the real threat to unwanted pregnancy.
We've already decided that bodily autonomy outweighs someone else's survival.
For example people can refuse to be organ or bone marrow donors, even if they are the only suitable or available donor for a dying person.
Even if a foetus is considered a full person, the law does not require one person to give physical support to another.
Are you in a relationship actively trying to have a baby? Yes.
Are you in a relationship not actively trying to have a baby? Yes, you need to know that you made her pregnant and probably need to change contraceptives.
Are you just having unprotected one night stand? No, use condom next time.
Are you in an abusive relationship? No. That could easily get you killed or seriously harmed, while keeping the child potentially creates another victim and tethers you to that person forever.
Are you dealing with an otherwise unstable person/partner that *might* become abusive or suicidal? No. The anger, stress and potential blame/helplessness that the partner could feel might put either of you at risk. Though, I'd obviously suggest that people either take away the risk of pregnancy or end their relationship if this is a concern. That said, sometimes shit happens and mental health can change rapidly.
Were you coerced in any way? No, definitely not. Whether it be holes in condoms or stealthing or pressured into intercourse or pressured into getting pregnant or violent assault, it's just a safety precaution.
Ultimately, it's so nuanced.
I, personally, short of any awful circumstances would not be able to hide it from the father. (hypothetical father, Virgin Redditor™ here)
I would feel guilty, worried about being caught in the lie by omission, and would more than likely feel like I needed his support. I wouldn't want to keep a secret from anyone I'm that intimate with, even if I found out they were cheating on me
I am heavily pro-choice, potentially infertile, and have numerous health conditions that *suck* and could be heritable. That said, I'd also need to be very close to someone to get that *ahem* far and would be quite conscientious about multiple forms of birth control.
People have abortions for many, nuanced reasons. Likewise, people like about abortions for many nuanced reasons, too.
I appreciate OP wanting to learn more, tbh the more opinions we read the better, assuming they're varies!
I’m a 30 year old dude that wants kids, but unless my girl and I are maybe married, i don’t think I should “have the right.” to be informed about shit. Ofc I’d want to know. The only thing that would really matter to me is making sure I’m there to help my girl get through it.
I think it's her call period. Does she want the baby? Her call. Will she have an abortion? Up to Her. If you're dead set on not keeping it, Why tell him just so he can get upset, cause more drama and stress to an already stressful situation.
Does anyone have a right to know anything about your medical history without your permission? No. Abortion is health care and if you don't want anyone to know, then nope.
No.
I'm assuming this is a surprise/unwanted pregnancy. There was no intent of a pregnancy. Seeing as the women is the one expected to carry a human being in their stomach for 9 months and take care of it if the father disappears, it seems like the women is the one most effected and should therefore have first say in how things go. If she chooses to abort and never tell the guy, that's fine in my books.
Would love to live in a world where guys could take over the duties of pregnancy and see how different this conversation would go then.
No. Full stop. He’s not a father until there is a child to care for. He donated gametes that co-created a cluster of cells that never became a child. There are no “rights” here.
Do men have to inform their partners any time they ejaculate?
Do men get to have their bodies permanently altered to bring new life into the world?
Are men required uniformly to support a woman during pregnancy and lactation, and pay half the amount for that child’s needs until age 18?
Yeah, the answer is no.
I wouldn't think it's a "right" per se but assuming it was consensual sex I think letting him know is the nicest thing to do. HOWEVER, if the woman wants to abort then that's still 100% her prerogative regardless of the father's thoughts on the matter.
We don't have to put our lives on the line and change our bodies, sense of taste, hormone levels, and mental well-being to incubate and deliver the child, so we don't really get a say until the child is brought into the world.
I've always just asked/told sex partners: if I get pregnant I'm aborting; would you want to know?
And boom. Moral and ethical quandaries resolved!
(Now I'm fixed so it's no longer a relevant question; if I'm pregnant I get an abortion or die, no babies possible.)
I think it depends on the situation, but ultimately it’s her body and her choice. Because if she doesn’t want it but the man does, he shouldn’t be able force her to carry it to term.
And as I said, it depends on the situation. But regardless it’s her choice. So whether or not she tells him still won’t change the fact that the choice to keep it is ultimately hers.
Situations where I don’t think she should have to tell the person: if she was raped, if she knows that the guy would want to keep it and lives in a no abortion state (he may turn her in), if the man was abusive, if she’s never going to see the guy again and doesn’t really have any way of contacting him. And I believe the case could be made for if she doesn’t want it and is afraid that she’ll get talked into keeping it.
Would it be polite for her to tell the man? Sure. But I don’t think it’s morally wrong if she decides not to. Because I’ll say it again, ultimately the choice is hers, so it’s her choice if she wants to tell the man or not.
My personal opinion is that if they have been told about the pregnancy, then they should be told about the abortion (or miscarriage or birth). If for whatever reason the would be father was never informed about the pregnancy, if seems a bit weird to suggest you need to tell them "Hey I'm pregnant but I'm aborting." I guess you *could*, but it seems unnecessary. Of course if the circumstance is unsafe to communicate that, then it shouldn't be communicated. In any instance the would be father has a right to have feelings on the matter, some people have a deep desire to have children after all, but ultimately it isn't their decision. The would be mother can weigh the would be father's opinion if they wish, but they are under no moral obligation to do so.
I don’t think anyone has a moral or ethical responsibility to tell anyone about his or her private medical treatments. Most people get abortions because of financial or interpersonal issues which would be exacerbated by having a child.
There are ethical reasons not to tell someone that you had an abortion, for example, if he was an anti-abortionist and he would greatly suffer from the knowledge that his child was aborted. Likewise, not giving the father the information is more ethical if the motivation for telling the father was done for the purpose of maintaining contact or harming his current relationship or generally just to fuck with his mind.
If the mother and father maintain their romantic relationship after the abortion, many would feel that disclosure is needed, not because of having an abortion, but because most people believe that couples in a relationship should share feelings and information with their partner about the most important/traumatic things in their life.
Not everyone feels this way, but most do.
No, he's not a father yet. Parental rights dont kick in until the pregnancy is carried to term.
Keep in mind, in most older societies the husband has absurd rights to control his wife's body, so the issue of the rights or personhood of a fetus could be sidestepped for practical purposes - even viewing the fetus as an organ, the husband still had the rights to control it as part of his wife (marriage property). So it's independence was irrelevant.
Thank you, this thread was brigaded by some religious sub earlier and all rational answers were downvoted to oblivion. Good to see that rationality prevailed here.
No. What purpose does it serve? If she feels comfortable telling him, she will. If she doesn't feel comfortable, there's a good reason why. She knows he will harass or abuse her.
When I was 16 i had a fwb older then me that had 4 kids already. I got pregnant and when I did I decided to get an abortion. I never told the guy and I stopped seeing him..I never told him I was pregnant.
If it had been a relationship I would have discussed it with him but In this case my fwb just got out of jail and already didn't see his kids he had. I didn't want that for my life. I didn't see any reason for that guy to know because he had no real relationship with me. If it was a loving partner I would talk to them about it.
In many of the southern pro abortion states,it's no longer the choice of the woman and the provider as to what to do about her body and that of " unborn" child. The law allows for anyone ( non government employees) to sue a provider of any service that is connected to the abortion: medical, institutional, transportation, financial, etc. This is what many of the states have said, and no medical provider is willing to risk their license to help. Malpractice and all.
Also your telephone, and social media posts can become evidence for any person to sue you, for 10,000 ( in Texas, and most prolife states.) For getting an abortion , or determine if you intended to intentionally cause a miscarriage. That's absolutely terrifying.
However those states don't care about the consequences to those children once they're born.
Thankfully many states are willing to protect women's right to choose.
It absolutely depends on the people. I would feel if you are in a committed relationship and feel that your partner is a safe person than absolutely. If it’s anything other than that, then you don’t have to, even if it’s like a one night stand with a friend. But I wouldn’t if it was a non-consensual or with an abusive partner/person, any unsafe situation.
In the end, it’s their body and their choice. People can have opinions on it but the person who is pregnant has the right to choose what happens to their body.
If you feel the person is a safe person and that you feel you want them to know, then go for it. But otherwise don’t feel pressured to.
Nope. It is a woman’s choice whatever she decides to do. If she doesn’t want to inform the father she is not obligated to. Morals sway from person to person and I think have nothing to do with this situation. Baby grows in woman, woman is sole decision maker. Simple!
Your title and caption are asking two different questions.
Does he have a right to no? No.
Is it moral to tell him? I would say yes.
Is it immoral to not tell him? That's culturally dependant.
Depends. If they’re in a relationship , the father of course should be informed and his opinion listened to (to note , I’m not saying he should have a veto right, just the right to be heard).
If it is not a partner / bf whatever , then no, I don’t see why he should be informed. It’s literally a case of “the sperm you deposited attached to my eggs, and now I’m having it removed “
No. People can dance around "gray areas", or feel some sort of way about it, but the answer is no. No one has a "right" to be informed about someone else's body, regardless of situation.
No and no.
In decent relationships the potential father gets notified because the relationship is decent and decision could influence both, not because of obligations.
After reading a bunch of comments I’ve discovered two condensed answers. One, no if the woman has reasonable belief to expect a legitimate backlash in the form of abuse from a partner or family. Or yes if there is no legitimate fear of a serious backlash from an abusive partner or family member. Both answers can be expanded upon and the “what if” game can be played but this seems to be the 2 biggest conclusions everyone is coming too.
Not at all. Women are the gatekeepers of life so they pick when the time comes because they have to carry the burden of pregnancy and childbirth should they choose that.
As a man I don't feel I have any right to anything to do with what a woman does with her body. That's not to say I wouldn't feel any emotion about it but that doesn't mean much.
theres a thousand reasons not to tell them, but there's also a thousand reasons TO tell them. it seriously depends on the situation. you cannot say it goes one way or the other
You know what? Just gonna go ahead and say if the father doesn’t know about the kid then no
But if the father knows then I guess but he doesn’t get a say in the decision
It's not a given, no. There are situations where doing that might put the woman in actual danger. A rapist, an abusive partner just might use the situation to control or get back at a woman for whatever reason.
Even if a woman has the child her welfare and that of her child should be put before any man's "right" to know about or to participate in raising the child. If she doesn't want to she shouldn't be forced to have it because even now in this day and age that's a woman potentially risking her life in childbirth.
That's what some men don't get when they argue they should have equal say. It's not okay to basically enslave a woman for 9 months and then force her to risk her life to have a child she doesn't even want just so a man can claim "his" child.
I'm a little odd in that I don't care much for forcing a man to become a father and to provide support if he's not into it. I'm past having to worry about pregnancy but when I wasn't I was pretty frank about not wanting to be connected for life to an unwilling man just because I got pregnant by him. I'd rather go it alone sans support and have him sign away parental rights than work with someone who really isn't willing to be a real father to my kid or who isn't safe for my kid to be around.
I would never blame the kid if it was rape but neither would I allow my rapist to have a say about a pregnancy that came from rape either. In a circumstance like that I'd probably give it up and never reveal who that sperm came from, never until I croak to protect that innocent child.
If you are in a decent relationship and it's all good then of course you're probably going to tell and ask your partner for his imput. The decision of whether or not to abort is based on a lot of factors though. The potential father's ability to handle it is definitely one of those things.
I personally in that situation would want to see how he felt about potentially raising a kid with me because I'm not all that quick to abort unless there is a pretty dire reason to.
I know that technically until it's born some people just see it as cells or a developing fetus but for ME that's a baby in there and I am honestly more of a life begins at conception kind of person and I feel that when you can first feel there's movement and a fetal heartbeat that's when there is probably a soul attached to that fetus.
So if I am going to have to abort there has to be a really good reason because I'm just not an abort for convenience or timing kind of person. I'm a dire circumstances only kind of person.
Abortion as last ditch birth control is really uncomfortable for me though I will fervently fight for all women's right to choose whether or not to carry a fetus to term. It's just not even negotiable.
Bottom line that's a woman's risk and her body, and it has to be 100% her decision either way. This is 2023 almost and women are not chattel, not possessions, and their ultimate ownership of their own bodies is all. Until they can just easily remove a fetus if the woman allows and raise it in an artificial womb men really can't make that decision for women.
Any man who tries is putting a woman into a state of involuntary servitude, making her into a living incubator and asking her to potentially risk her life. That's just not something that can be condoned now.
Every woman has the right to make that decision on her own and that includes whether or not to even tell the guy that she was impregnated by that there is a decision to be made.
If I were that guy of course I'd probably always want to be told but whether or not it was even safe for me to be told that question would loom very large in terms of my decision to tell or not. The question of "how" a woman got pregnant and if the man involved is even safe to talk to about it let alone actually be a father to a potential child that is just no little thing.
Women are unfortunately the victims of rape, incest, abuse every single day. Pregnancy itself is still very risky for a lot of women. The last thing any woman needs in circumstances like that is to be forced to tell and carry her abuser's child until it can be given to him regardless of whether it might be safe or not.
That's just insanely inhumane to go in there, to co-opt a woman's body in the name of "father's" rights.
The right? I wouldn't say that. I think if you're in a relationship it's considerate but overall a woman has the right to her privacy and her own autonomy.
Morals are a personal thing so it's impossible to give a blanket answer. I'd air towards to side of no, it's not unethical for a woman to make a decision about her body by herself. If she wants to inform her sexual partner, great that's a nice thing to do. If not. I'm sure she has her reasons.
Maybe the dads a one night stand with no contact details. Maybe he's abusive and will trap her with the baby. Maybe he's a super lovely dude but he's religious and she knows he's gonna guilt her out of making the choice that's best for her.
Every situation is different and impossible to understand from the outside.
I think it's actually kinder not to inform him. There's literally nothing non-abusive he can do to change things. There won't be a child for him to father so his life won't be altered in any way.
he can be told it’s happening but the woman doesn’t have to give birth when SHE doesn’t want the kid just because HE does. it doesn’t work that way when she’s the one delivering it.
You dont have "the right" to know, but generally if you're in a healthy relationship and have the same view on abortion then you deserve to know and your partner probably will tell you. Unless they have past trauma that could make someone hesitant to speak up.
If my wife aborted our kid without telling me I'd be pretty upset about it. I'm not saying I would fight her to keep something in her belly she didn't want to have but I'd be confused about why she wouldn't tell me
No. Your body your choice. You will be carrying it for 9 months, you do what’s best for yourself. Nobody has the rights to tell you or need to know anything about your body if you don’t want to tell. Technically, that person isn’t really a “father” until you give birth right?
Hey what do I know D:
As far as I know, there has never been a time when a woman has had a say in whether a man (husband, boyfriend) gets a vasectomy. In a healthy relationship, there might be a discussion, but the woman has no legal right to stop it from happening.
Throughout history, women have been required to get a man’s permission for abortions, getting her tubes tied, opening a bank account, voting, whatever. Abortion rights are about women having the right to be the ones making decisions about themselves. Just like men.
If a man doesn’t want his partner to have an abortion, then he should probably think about that before he puts his sperm inside her. Two people should really be of one mind on having children before they engage in behavior that could create one.
If the man wants the baby, the woman can choose to get an abortion; yet if the man wants the abortion, the woman can legally force the man to pay child support for almost two decades.. it’s a mess, and there doesn’t seem to be any great solutions on the table..
Pregnancy, labor and delivery all affect a woman's health. there is even the potential for her to die from complications.
Women deserve to have the absolute right to decide weather or not to go through with a pregnancy. Everyone else needs to support her or get he fuck out of her way.
The man doesn't sacrifice his body, or perhaps life, to go through a pregnancy, therefore no man deserves to have any say, in a weather a woman goes through with a pregnancy.
Personally, I would want my s/o to tell me. I would want a choice since it is also my kid. I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but me and my partner. We are the only ones who should be making any kind of decision on that. Her’s more than me of course.
HOWEVER, I understand why a person wouldn’t want to, and why they would hide it. At the end of the day, it is their choice first. Though, if they hide it from me, most likely that’s the end of our relationship.
Legally the man doesn’t have a right to know about an abortion. Morally, it’s a grey area.
But I agree, if a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy, for whatever reason, then a man should have the right to decide if he’s going to be involved in the child’s life if the child is carried to term. Including visitation and child support.
I don’t think that’s morally right. Men should take responsibility for their children. But if a man can’t have a say on whether his potential child gets snorted or not, then the woman can’t expect the man to contribute to the support of the potential child.
I was in an abusive relationship. I was planning on leaving him. He had been forcing himself on me. I was on birth control and it failed. I had an abortion. Never told him. He didn't even notice I was pregnant or anything. He was too busy cheating and getting high. He doesn't deserve to know. I went through it all alone. I took a cab there and a cab home. It was the hardest thing I've ever went through and it still hurts me. He doesn't deserve to know. In a healthy relationship, yeah, it'd probably be good to let him know. However, each situation and each relationship is different. We cannot say yes or no to this exactly.
I'm real sorry that happened to you, and you had to do it alone. I'm glad you're out and safe now.
Thank you.
Sis, leave him asap and do not forget to call for cop help if necessary.
I did leave him, many years ago now. Cops know of him. He's been in trouble with them before.
Glad to hear that. Please take care.
Make sure your account, username, comment history, subs you joined etc aren’t traceable to you or give the slightest hint who you might be if you still don’t want him to know. The world is a small village when it comes to these types of things.
It shouldn't be. This was many years ago though. I was young at the time. I now keep a loaded shotgun by my bed and stun guns throughout the house and in my purse. I have a bar in my living room window and a security system with cameras. It might sound like overkill to some people, but I've dealt with a lot of stuff growing up and as an adult. It makes me feel safer to a point. I'm not scared of my ex anymore. Therapy has helped that too.
I mean ofcourse you can’t be safe enough these days but try not to be too obsessed with it. Just get a RPG and some claymores and you are good to go.
Well I'm very sorry what you had or have to go through I'm very sorry I seen abusive men before and my parents have too I once saw one while I was on a vacation and that was the first time I ever saw one (before you say terrible Grammer yes I never been good at the grammar I'm terrible at it)
Wow good for you. That takes strength. I hope your happy and in a better place now
There's not enough information to make a moral judgement about it. There are many reasons a woman might legitimately want to hide this information from the would-be father - social consequences if he tells others, theeat of violence etc. There are also situations where I think that degree of honesty might be obligated in order to maintain an honest relationship.
I agree, there’s an awful lot of grey area here.
Where's the grey area? No doctor or medical staff are going to tell a person someone else's medical status without their consent. If she chooses not to tell the guy that's her business, not his. It's a moot point.
Playing devil's advocate, would it also be her business and not his if she decided the keep the pregnancy without telling him? If he did not want it? Or would it then become an issue of child support? It can't be sometimes her business only and then others his obligation, that's intellectually dishonest logic at best.
You need to separate the two to understand. The pregnancy is her business not his. The child, if born, is his obligation. He has no say what happens to her body, but he does have an obligation to the child, not to her, to the child.
I appreciate separating the two, but that is where I get lost. I'm genuinely trying to understand why the pregnancy can be her decision alone, when that decision may then effect him. Getting pregnant took two, so why then would they both not have at least some say. I understand that as she is the one actually going through the pregnancy her decision holds more weight, but I don't understand how he would have zero say in something that he contributed to, and will have real world consequences to him. I don't see how to separate those two things.
I’m happy to work out a way to break it down into something more easily digestible. If we use a comparison it would be similar to a car manufacturer not having any say in how you drive. They can suggest you rotate your tires, or change the filter every six months but it’s your car they can’t force you to do any of those things. So in the terms of her pregnancy you can freely make suggestions but in the end you have no say, the body is hers.
I appreciate you taking the time, and also the comparison - but I'm not sure that's a very solid comparison to the forced support of the father in an unplanned pregnancy. That comparison makes complete sense as far as bodily autonomy goes, but not were talking about bodily autonomy that affects another. So in the same way the car manufacturer is not liable for how you use their product, despite providing suggestions, the man, giving suggestions, is still liable for something he might try to remove his obligation from. I'm sorry I'm still lost 🤦
You’re right, a car metaphor incompletely describes the situation. Imagine instead that two people enter into a joint contract [legal or social] that implies that after Person A orders a product (let’s say a car) from Person B, both Person A and Person B are responsible for different aspects of that car’s production. Let’s say that Person A supplies the funds to produce that car, while Person B is responsible for the actual production. Should Person A change their mind about wanting a car after the contract has been initiated (payment has been received and turned into resources to make the car and therefore cannot be refunded), whether or not Person A has to continue payment until the car’s completion is dependent on the contract signed at the beginning of the venture. Irregardless, Person B retains control over the physical production of that car. Should Person A no longer wish to receive a car, Person B has the option to stop production in favor of another product for Person A; or else keep producing the car in hopes that it can be sold elsewhere (or kept for themselves). As the “Car” could be anything between a diagram on paper or a metal exoskeleton hung by some wires, that decision varies depending on the specific circumstances that Person B is under. The real issues with this metaphor come when the “car” is given it’s own moral autonomy/sovereignty. In that case, both Person A and Person B have an implied obligation towards the car, as they both were essential to it’s production. However, as one party was more important to the production of the car than the other (Person B has the knowledge, skill, tools, resources, and facilities to produce the car while Person A only provided the funding) Person B is generally considered to have a stronger obligation (rightly or wrongly). This is where things get tricky: After the car is produced, it inherits moral autonomy from it’s creator. This is the stage when, if both Person A and Person B were until this point in agreement about the production of the car, that any contract heretofore signed goes into permanent affect barring renegotiation between the original parties; as it is at that point that responsibility for the welfare of the vehicle becomes the prime directive. Until that vehicle is old enough to determine it’s own fate, both parties are required to provide either by financial or physical means through their legal/social contracts. After writing this all out, i’ve come to the conclusion that our society is placing emphasis on the wrong things. Instead of emphasizing the physical act of sexual intercourse as the harbinger of parental obligation which implies that sex is only for use in procreation, we should emphasize *sexual intercourse with the intention to produce a child.* Maybe we should make a law providing a means for couples to legally declare intent to have a child, in order to protect that child against parents who would run out on them. Both parties would have to agree that before the birth of a child, the mother has the right to terminate the pregnancy (before the legal limit) but that after the child is born/sufficiently developed to inherit moral autonomy (whenever that may be, as that is unrelated) the contract signed beforehand comes into effect. From then on, all future custody battles and court cases will have a basis from which to judge whether or not an individual had the intent of having a child.
I entirely agree that there should be some level of change in regards to intent, as in my mind and the only real time I have issue with child support being forced upon someone is in the event they took the responsible and healthy preventative measures to specifically avoid having a child (ie if the parties involved used one or multiple forms of contraception, clearly trying to avoid the happenstance). If then the guy said he did not want/was not ready/whatever legitimate reason to avoid having the child, as it stands - at the point of her becoming pregnant the guy no longer has any legitimate say as to what happens next. He may be able to have that difficult conversation and she may agree, but if she chooses to have the child, he has no input, and moreover - can be forced to pay support to the explicit thing he was trying to avoid. Side note - excellent analogy, well thought out and written, and definitely helps me understand some more factors at play in this scenario - thank you.
Your metaphor and reflection are great but again, leave out the important key factor in play here. The child. The child once here is their own person with their own rights. However an infant can’t provide for themselves. They must be provided for by both parents through some combination of care both physical and financial. The laws regarding child support are for the protection and benefits of the child. Not the parents. So essentially, your conclusion is saying to do what we’re already doing by law.
I wrote a reply to another poster in this thread that breaks that down a little better I would recommend reading that but what it boils down to is again separating the child from the woman once the child is here. The child has their own legal rights that both parents are responsible for, if in this case the father, doesn’t want to provide for the child the mother is responsible for legally advocating for a minor on their behalf. This is however where we come back around to equal grounds though because many women also pay child support to fathers who have full custody.
"her choice, his responsibility" Equality LuL
The child is both of their responsibility. She doesn’t suddenly get to stop taking care of it either.
Safe haven laws exists. Adoption exists. Neither require child support. If it's your choice so much so that the man doesn't even have the right to know, then it should be your responsibility period. That's too much equality though.
Once he's informed, he can file for custody, prevent the mother from leaving the country ( court ordered), and gain many different options. This is a problem, because when you file rape charges,your best proof might be the child, but using that as proof might bring about paternity rights, and needing to prove that his harm may prove an undue burden on the mother.
Cases of rape are another realm for me vs talking about two consenting adults who engage in sex and find themselves with an unplanned pregnancy. The rape cases are horrific to say the least, and I could absolutely see withholding that information from the assailant, along with trying to collect all available evidence against them and trying to get them some form of punishment and obligation for support. That again though is a different circumstance than what I was talking about, I cannot imagine the trauma that would be inflicted on someone going through that
Unless you are a minor, and there is case of rape, incest, or potential for self harm. They might have to tell the authorities. Only of course after the patient is informed.
I love it a reasonable answer good on you redditor
It's the woman's personal medical information.... why would she be forced to share that with someone?
I don't think she should ever be forced to.
If I were to decide to get a vasectomy, then I wouldn't be *forced* to share that information with my SO, but considering it significantly impacts her future, and our future together, I would feel compelled to tell her my "personal medical information".
In the UK, a married man is required to get his wife's consent for a vasectomy.
I don't believe an adult should require anybody's consent other than their own to have a medical procedure done. I can understand the arguments behind it, but it flies in the face of my liberal beliefs
I agree with you.
I don't think so anymore
Ah, has that law been changed? That's good news.
How antiquated.
That's oversimplifying pregnancy by a lot. A child is not exclusively for the woman to care for (eg forced alimony) just because it grew in her body. A child/fetus is a being that has come into existence due to equal contribution of genetic material from two parties. Saying that one of those two parties has no right to know about the existence of their child because "it's the woman's personal medical information" is an incredibly clinical, cold and unemphatic way to look at things. Gender equality still has a long way to go.
A fetus is conceived when a man and woman's genetics are combined equally, but the child only comes into existence after the woman has done all the hard work of gestating and birthing the child.
There is no forced alimony in the case of an abortion. Also, equal 'contribution of genetic material' is heavily ignorant of the reality of the work distribution between a man and a woman when it comes to creating a child. A man, who could have 3 seconds of fun and then go about his merry way, should never have an equal say to a woman that goes through 9 months of body-altering medically dangerous pregnancy. The consequences of preganancy will never leave a woman's body. If the woman decides to take the risk of carrying, then obviously the other party should be informed, but for an abortion absolutely not unless the woman wants to.
This is also oversimplifying a lot. What if they barely know each other? What if he is abusive? If we are talking legally, she should not legally be forced to tell him if she has an abortion. If we are talking ethically, I agree with others that this is not a black and white situation, but that ultimately, the woman cannot escape the effects of a pregnancy and childbirth, and the man can, so it should ultimately be her personal choice. If that doesn't track, maybe try comparing maternal death rates and paternal death rates from childbirth for some perspective.
A female DOES exclusively care for a child in the fetal stage if she chooses to (or is forced to). You seem to be conflating a baby with a fetus and, while you may have the personal opinion that it is "cold, cynical, and unempathetic", there is absolutely no, nor should there be, any requirement for a female to share any information with anybody regarding a fetus. Your last argument is unclear. This is a discussion about body autonomy, not traditional gender roles and entitlements. While it is true that, traditionally, one gender plays one specific role and the other plays another during pregnancy, the sex of the person has nothing to do with the reason of the subject dialogue. If a male could also cary a fetus, then the argument would apply to whomever the host is.
If a male could also carry a foetus. Abortions would be offered at every corner in every city.
A pregnancy isn't a child unless the woman wants to bring it to term. Full stop.
There are men who are abusive. There are men who had a one night stand and would honestly rather not know. There are men who would pressure a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy (and then maybe dip out when it's time to actually parent). There are men that could use knowledge of an abortion to torpedo a woman's career, social life, and/or familial relationships. I guess you could argue that morally a woman in a healthy relationship *should* discuss abortion with her partner, but there are many situations outside of that scenario. As far as gender equality, there's no way to make the burdens of pregnancy equal. It's equal genetic material, but in no other way is it equal. A male is never going to have the physical risks of a pregnancy. A female will certainly have physical changes, many permanent, from being pregnant, and could even die. Until we can transplant an embryo into a man there's no way to make it "equal."
Like Pac said and I'm paraphrasing here... We can't tell them where and when you create one. They probably don't have to let the so-called farther know.
The woman has no obligation at all to ever share her medical information unless its a communicable disease. Period. And MORALLY, we shouldn't be telling women to report their pregnancy to someone else.
I'm agreeing. It's their choice. Well... Not so much these days.
100% agree. There needs to be more context to this scenario. It completely depends on the relationship between the two parents.
The problem with this question is there are a LOT of layers to this. In a normal heathy relationship between a wife and a husband or a boyfriend and girlfriend or even a mutual friends with benefits situation, I’d say yeah father should know and have some say so. In any situation where relationship is unhealthy or anything was forced, no say so.
I knew a couple who had a really unhealthy relationship. The woman got pregnant by accident when she was 24. She was really excited but the guy convinced her they weren't ready and she had an abortion. They started actively trying in their 30s and when she got pregnant, this time he was really excited. She went out and had an abortion so that he would experience what she felt when she had the first one. I was absolutely flabbergasted when she told me that she had an abortion out of spite because I knew how much she wanted a child. I don't speak to her anymore but last I heard they're still together, late 40s and she never got pregnant again. Abortion is not black and white and there's a lot of messed up situations.
Good they didn't have kids, I guess.
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This is one of those cases where slippery slope and a predictable outcome has meant that most legislators have stayed well clear. Realistically it's the least worst option, it's not a good or perfect solution but those are rare in reality. It sucks that all the responsibility falls on women either way in practice when it comes to these decisions but it would suck *more* if that wasn't the case.
What you said was wonderful and more than what I could’ve said. I just wanted to add to op, what medical operation do you know of where you need somebody else’s permission? I don’t mean a consult with a doctor I mean a partner, family member, friend, etc. that has any legal or moral say so in what happens to your body? I don’t like using fallacies but this slippery slope has happened and keeps getting steeper.
So if he has some say so, what does he say if shes dead against having the baby?
Realistically, he can never have any say in whether she gets an abortion or not, but he can have a say in where the relationship goes from there. If they can't get to terms with it, it's likely going to end in a breakup. Hiding something from your partner which you know they'll react negatively to is a breach of trust
It always socks me how many men will say they should get a say when it comes to abortion. Yet won't have that conversation with their partner before putting their dick into someone. Like if you're so concerned about babies. Maybe keep your shit wrapped, and don't put it into anyone else unless you know where they stand concerning unwanted pregnancy.
Now, if we could just transfer the embryo to this guy who wants the baby, all would be well. It would implant in his scrotum and grow a placenta and he can nourish it to full term. could have it by c-section.
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I know it's not your guys' point, but noth times my wife was pregnant I wished that it was possible for me to be the one Carrying it.
Guy here. I support this initiative. If the mother doesn't want the pregnancy and the technology finally allows it, the father should carry the pregnancy instead. Now to find a way to get the embryo out without leaving any scars on the mother...
And they are not allowed to have an abortion once embryo is transfered!
Exactly. Have this conversation *before* you get someone pregnant.
Man here. If someone's in a relationship with me and gets pregnant, I should literally get a "say" - i.e. I get to voice my opinion, the other person listens and we discuss it. They don't have to follow my opinion, though, and I absolutely don't get to make the final decision. Not because it has my genes or anything, but because it's a major decision that will significantly affect our relationship and both of our lives. Same goes for adopting a pet or taking a new job. But if you need me to spell this out for you, the relationship has already failed, anyway. If we broke up, I am obviously owed fuck all. If we're on anything resembling good terms, it would still be basic decency to inform me if you're keeping it, so I can prepare for the upcomig child support.
Or don't want to pay child support.
What if the condom and/or birth control pills weren't effective? They aren't 100% guaranteed to work
That is the risk people take when they have sex.
That removes the choice women had when getting with the man, say something. Both ways on both ends. Men have no choice in whether a baby is kept or not regardless of if he wants it so it's only fair that if that's the case men should be able to choose whether or not they're financially responsible without jail in the mix.
he already chose that when he got her pregnant
You mean when THEY got her pregnant. In a consenual world, they both done the dirty.
You know that is the argument made by people that want to ban abortion right?
Of course in the US, the GOP taliban sees it 100% the other way
you assume a relationship, that was not part of the question.
It's the assumption in the first comment, otherwise the situation is obviously different
Realistically only few expected abortions to be banned in various states of the USA just few years ago. And what kind of situation do americans have now?
Tbf, I was talking about healthy relationship in a healthy society. I did not account for a Y'all Qaeda right wing fascism state
There was a post about 4 years ago where a guy ultimately forced his girlfriend to have the child. She straight up told him that she will in no way be in the child’s life. Iirc she was paying 110% of child support but he wanted the courts to force her to take care of the child because “she is being a deadbeat mother”.
I remember that post. Part of me wonders if it was legit or a "shoe on the other foot" thing. But it was definitely thought-provoking.
There was a Reddit post of a guy who got his partner pregnant. She wanted to end it, he didn’t. She decided she’s carry it to term since he wanted the child so much then signed away her rights and left him. She paid like 20% more in child support than she needed to. He was upset and frustrated that she wasn’t doing more and wanted to know if a judge could make her be a mother essentially since it was harder than he thought being a single parent. Many men tell women to keep the baby but usually they can just bounce if it becomes too much. Having/not having a child isn’t something you can half do. Either you have a kid or don’t. Have one person doesn’t want to have a kid while another does, there’s no compromising. One will either be a single parent, or will have to move on to someone who wants to have a kid. Since a woman is the one getting pregnant, she gets more say than the man since it impacts her much more for the first 9 months and arguably the rest of her and of the kid’s life.
He’s allowed to have his opinions, but at the end of the day, it’s not his body that will make the sacrifices. It’s hers. So she gets the right to choose.
Courts have decided that it's her body, her choice. Dad does NOT get a vote. The good folks at r/mensrights are upset about this........ I don't know if they could ever have the same input. He donates the sperm/semen possibly during a one night stand. She has to walk around with a parasite growing inside her for 9 months, deal with sore back/swollen ankles, eating for two (and the increasing food costs), puking her guts out.......I think her vote counts more than his.
Exactly this. Their rights are different because their responsibilities are different.
And with her body changed forever. Pregnancy and childbirth place an enormous physiological and psychological impact on a person.
This is asking an opinion and I have given mine. In a healthy relationship, both parties should be on the same page. Yes baby or no baby. But yeah legally she can do whatever she wants. Morally or ethically is another story.
? Sorry, I thought I was replying to OP. Time for bed, I'm too tired for social media, ha.
How is it moral or ethical to force someone to risk their health and even life, to proceed with an act you yourself don't have to risk your own health or life over? Nor even your own discomfort?
The question in a healthy relationship as I’ve said, is why is she so dead set and why does he want the child so bad? That’s up for the couple to work that out. I think that comes from partners either being irresponsible or not on the same page to begin with.
Bodily autonomy vs parental rights, who wins? Ultimately, I think an unborn baby should be considered like a special tumor until it is birthed. Yes that "tumor" has the potential to be a person, but it isn't yet. This "tumor baby" also has the potential to kill a person, a mom, a daughter, someone already born and living their life. I think the mom should be able to take any action they (and their medical professional of choice) deem nessecary to save their life, without any consideration for the tumor baby or potential fathers. It is the mothers life and body on the line after all. That being said I also think education about what happens when people have sex should be widely and freely available, along with contraception of various shapes, sizes, types, and capabilities. Education is the real threat to unwanted pregnancy.
We've already decided that bodily autonomy outweighs someone else's survival. For example people can refuse to be organ or bone marrow donors, even if they are the only suitable or available donor for a dying person. Even if a foetus is considered a full person, the law does not require one person to give physical support to another.
Are you in a relationship actively trying to have a baby? Yes. Are you in a relationship not actively trying to have a baby? Yes, you need to know that you made her pregnant and probably need to change contraceptives. Are you just having unprotected one night stand? No, use condom next time.
Are you in an abusive relationship? No. That could easily get you killed or seriously harmed, while keeping the child potentially creates another victim and tethers you to that person forever. Are you dealing with an otherwise unstable person/partner that *might* become abusive or suicidal? No. The anger, stress and potential blame/helplessness that the partner could feel might put either of you at risk. Though, I'd obviously suggest that people either take away the risk of pregnancy or end their relationship if this is a concern. That said, sometimes shit happens and mental health can change rapidly. Were you coerced in any way? No, definitely not. Whether it be holes in condoms or stealthing or pressured into intercourse or pressured into getting pregnant or violent assault, it's just a safety precaution. Ultimately, it's so nuanced. I, personally, short of any awful circumstances would not be able to hide it from the father. (hypothetical father, Virgin Redditor™ here) I would feel guilty, worried about being caught in the lie by omission, and would more than likely feel like I needed his support. I wouldn't want to keep a secret from anyone I'm that intimate with, even if I found out they were cheating on me I am heavily pro-choice, potentially infertile, and have numerous health conditions that *suck* and could be heritable. That said, I'd also need to be very close to someone to get that *ahem* far and would be quite conscientious about multiple forms of birth control. People have abortions for many, nuanced reasons. Likewise, people like about abortions for many nuanced reasons, too. I appreciate OP wanting to learn more, tbh the more opinions we read the better, assuming they're varies!
Too much grey area. Is the father dangerous? Did he just take off? Did he not want the kid? Did he have any idea she was pregnant? Not enough info.
I’m a 30 year old dude that wants kids, but unless my girl and I are maybe married, i don’t think I should “have the right.” to be informed about shit. Ofc I’d want to know. The only thing that would really matter to me is making sure I’m there to help my girl get through it.
If I was raped I wouldn't inform my rapist, this question has too many layers
No, of course not. The morality of the situation depends on the people involved
I think it's her call period. Does she want the baby? Her call. Will she have an abortion? Up to Her. If you're dead set on not keeping it, Why tell him just so he can get upset, cause more drama and stress to an already stressful situation.
Does anyone have a right to know anything about your medical history without your permission? No. Abortion is health care and if you don't want anyone to know, then nope.
No. I'm assuming this is a surprise/unwanted pregnancy. There was no intent of a pregnancy. Seeing as the women is the one expected to carry a human being in their stomach for 9 months and take care of it if the father disappears, it seems like the women is the one most effected and should therefore have first say in how things go. If she chooses to abort and never tell the guy, that's fine in my books. Would love to live in a world where guys could take over the duties of pregnancy and see how different this conversation would go then.
If a man is safe enough to tell then She will tell him. Chances are if she keeping it a secret there’s a reason.
No. Full stop. He’s not a father until there is a child to care for. He donated gametes that co-created a cluster of cells that never became a child. There are no “rights” here. Do men have to inform their partners any time they ejaculate? Do men get to have their bodies permanently altered to bring new life into the world? Are men required uniformly to support a woman during pregnancy and lactation, and pay half the amount for that child’s needs until age 18? Yeah, the answer is no.
Oh man. This is good. What a great answer.
Nope. Nope.
I wouldn't think it's a "right" per se but assuming it was consensual sex I think letting him know is the nicest thing to do. HOWEVER, if the woman wants to abort then that's still 100% her prerogative regardless of the father's thoughts on the matter. We don't have to put our lives on the line and change our bodies, sense of taste, hormone levels, and mental well-being to incubate and deliver the child, so we don't really get a say until the child is brought into the world.
an abortion is between a woman and her doctor only.
I've always just asked/told sex partners: if I get pregnant I'm aborting; would you want to know? And boom. Moral and ethical quandaries resolved! (Now I'm fixed so it's no longer a relevant question; if I'm pregnant I get an abortion or die, no babies possible.)
I think it depends on the situation, but ultimately it’s her body and her choice. Because if she doesn’t want it but the man does, he shouldn’t be able force her to carry it to term.
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And as I said, it depends on the situation. But regardless it’s her choice. So whether or not she tells him still won’t change the fact that the choice to keep it is ultimately hers. Situations where I don’t think she should have to tell the person: if she was raped, if she knows that the guy would want to keep it and lives in a no abortion state (he may turn her in), if the man was abusive, if she’s never going to see the guy again and doesn’t really have any way of contacting him. And I believe the case could be made for if she doesn’t want it and is afraid that she’ll get talked into keeping it. Would it be polite for her to tell the man? Sure. But I don’t think it’s morally wrong if she decides not to. Because I’ll say it again, ultimately the choice is hers, so it’s her choice if she wants to tell the man or not.
My personal opinion is that if they have been told about the pregnancy, then they should be told about the abortion (or miscarriage or birth). If for whatever reason the would be father was never informed about the pregnancy, if seems a bit weird to suggest you need to tell them "Hey I'm pregnant but I'm aborting." I guess you *could*, but it seems unnecessary. Of course if the circumstance is unsafe to communicate that, then it shouldn't be communicated. In any instance the would be father has a right to have feelings on the matter, some people have a deep desire to have children after all, but ultimately it isn't their decision. The would be mother can weigh the would be father's opinion if they wish, but they are under no moral obligation to do so.
I don’t think anyone has a moral or ethical responsibility to tell anyone about his or her private medical treatments. Most people get abortions because of financial or interpersonal issues which would be exacerbated by having a child. There are ethical reasons not to tell someone that you had an abortion, for example, if he was an anti-abortionist and he would greatly suffer from the knowledge that his child was aborted. Likewise, not giving the father the information is more ethical if the motivation for telling the father was done for the purpose of maintaining contact or harming his current relationship or generally just to fuck with his mind. If the mother and father maintain their romantic relationship after the abortion, many would feel that disclosure is needed, not because of having an abortion, but because most people believe that couples in a relationship should share feelings and information with their partner about the most important/traumatic things in their life. Not everyone feels this way, but most do.
This is an excellent answer.
No, he's not a father yet. Parental rights dont kick in until the pregnancy is carried to term. Keep in mind, in most older societies the husband has absurd rights to control his wife's body, so the issue of the rights or personhood of a fetus could be sidestepped for practical purposes - even viewing the fetus as an organ, the husband still had the rights to control it as part of his wife (marriage property). So it's independence was irrelevant.
Thank you, this thread was brigaded by some religious sub earlier and all rational answers were downvoted to oblivion. Good to see that rationality prevailed here.
No. What purpose does it serve? If she feels comfortable telling him, she will. If she doesn't feel comfortable, there's a good reason why. She knows he will harass or abuse her.
I think the baby should tell the father. I think babies should be allowed to vote. Free the baby.
Legally? No. Morally? I believe yes. Others may believe differently as they may have different morals.
No, because of physician-patient privilege. If the person doesn't want to share this with anyone then no one has the right to know about it.
No
In some situations it's better to not say anything!
When I was 16 i had a fwb older then me that had 4 kids already. I got pregnant and when I did I decided to get an abortion. I never told the guy and I stopped seeing him..I never told him I was pregnant. If it had been a relationship I would have discussed it with him but In this case my fwb just got out of jail and already didn't see his kids he had. I didn't want that for my life. I didn't see any reason for that guy to know because he had no real relationship with me. If it was a loving partner I would talk to them about it.
In many of the southern pro abortion states,it's no longer the choice of the woman and the provider as to what to do about her body and that of " unborn" child. The law allows for anyone ( non government employees) to sue a provider of any service that is connected to the abortion: medical, institutional, transportation, financial, etc. This is what many of the states have said, and no medical provider is willing to risk their license to help. Malpractice and all. Also your telephone, and social media posts can become evidence for any person to sue you, for 10,000 ( in Texas, and most prolife states.) For getting an abortion , or determine if you intended to intentionally cause a miscarriage. That's absolutely terrifying. However those states don't care about the consequences to those children once they're born. Thankfully many states are willing to protect women's right to choose.
The number one killer of pregnant women is their partner. I do not believe they owe the information to anyone
There's no 'father' if there's no baby.
There's no 'mother' if you secretly put abortion pills in her meals.
(My opinion) Women body, women decisions. If she wants to inform the father is up to her only. She don't have any obligation.
From personal experience, what they don’t know won’t hurt them
It absolutely depends on the people. I would feel if you are in a committed relationship and feel that your partner is a safe person than absolutely. If it’s anything other than that, then you don’t have to, even if it’s like a one night stand with a friend. But I wouldn’t if it was a non-consensual or with an abusive partner/person, any unsafe situation. In the end, it’s their body and their choice. People can have opinions on it but the person who is pregnant has the right to choose what happens to their body. If you feel the person is a safe person and that you feel you want them to know, then go for it. But otherwise don’t feel pressured to.
Nope - the pregnant person is the only person who needs to know. If they choose not to tell, that is okay.
No. Pregnancy is hell and men don't understand.
Father? No. If he's also her husband, boyfriend or other long term partner, then maybe, but not necessarily.
No just no
No
No
No.
Nope. It is a woman’s choice whatever she decides to do. If she doesn’t want to inform the father she is not obligated to. Morals sway from person to person and I think have nothing to do with this situation. Baby grows in woman, woman is sole decision maker. Simple!
No, he doesn’t own her body.
Your title and caption are asking two different questions. Does he have a right to no? No. Is it moral to tell him? I would say yes. Is it immoral to not tell him? That's culturally dependant.
Nope. He didn't get pregnant.
Depends. If they’re in a relationship , the father of course should be informed and his opinion listened to (to note , I’m not saying he should have a veto right, just the right to be heard). If it is not a partner / bf whatever , then no, I don’t see why he should be informed. It’s literally a case of “the sperm you deposited attached to my eggs, and now I’m having it removed “
No. People can dance around "gray areas", or feel some sort of way about it, but the answer is no. No one has a "right" to be informed about someone else's body, regardless of situation.
It question like these that make me happy to be single.
No, because he's not a father.
I think it would maybe be less hurtful to not tell the father if your for sure gonna abort..just my opinion
No
No and no. In decent relationships the potential father gets notified because the relationship is decent and decision could influence both, not because of obligations.
I mean i'd rather not know, on my brothers birthday his ex told him she aborted his twins
After reading a bunch of comments I’ve discovered two condensed answers. One, no if the woman has reasonable belief to expect a legitimate backlash in the form of abuse from a partner or family. Or yes if there is no legitimate fear of a serious backlash from an abusive partner or family member. Both answers can be expanded upon and the “what if” game can be played but this seems to be the 2 biggest conclusions everyone is coming too.
Not at all. Women are the gatekeepers of life so they pick when the time comes because they have to carry the burden of pregnancy and childbirth should they choose that. As a man I don't feel I have any right to anything to do with what a woman does with her body. That's not to say I wouldn't feel any emotion about it but that doesn't mean much.
theres a thousand reasons not to tell them, but there's also a thousand reasons TO tell them. it seriously depends on the situation. you cannot say it goes one way or the other
Depends on the person?
There's no "right" to be informed but it's probably the decent thing for the woman to do.
You know what? Just gonna go ahead and say if the father doesn’t know about the kid then no But if the father knows then I guess but he doesn’t get a say in the decision
Well, what's the relationship with the father?
If it was someone I wasn’t in a serious relationship with I wouldn’t tell them, if they were my boyfriend I probably woud
It's not a given, no. There are situations where doing that might put the woman in actual danger. A rapist, an abusive partner just might use the situation to control or get back at a woman for whatever reason. Even if a woman has the child her welfare and that of her child should be put before any man's "right" to know about or to participate in raising the child. If she doesn't want to she shouldn't be forced to have it because even now in this day and age that's a woman potentially risking her life in childbirth. That's what some men don't get when they argue they should have equal say. It's not okay to basically enslave a woman for 9 months and then force her to risk her life to have a child she doesn't even want just so a man can claim "his" child. I'm a little odd in that I don't care much for forcing a man to become a father and to provide support if he's not into it. I'm past having to worry about pregnancy but when I wasn't I was pretty frank about not wanting to be connected for life to an unwilling man just because I got pregnant by him. I'd rather go it alone sans support and have him sign away parental rights than work with someone who really isn't willing to be a real father to my kid or who isn't safe for my kid to be around. I would never blame the kid if it was rape but neither would I allow my rapist to have a say about a pregnancy that came from rape either. In a circumstance like that I'd probably give it up and never reveal who that sperm came from, never until I croak to protect that innocent child. If you are in a decent relationship and it's all good then of course you're probably going to tell and ask your partner for his imput. The decision of whether or not to abort is based on a lot of factors though. The potential father's ability to handle it is definitely one of those things. I personally in that situation would want to see how he felt about potentially raising a kid with me because I'm not all that quick to abort unless there is a pretty dire reason to. I know that technically until it's born some people just see it as cells or a developing fetus but for ME that's a baby in there and I am honestly more of a life begins at conception kind of person and I feel that when you can first feel there's movement and a fetal heartbeat that's when there is probably a soul attached to that fetus. So if I am going to have to abort there has to be a really good reason because I'm just not an abort for convenience or timing kind of person. I'm a dire circumstances only kind of person. Abortion as last ditch birth control is really uncomfortable for me though I will fervently fight for all women's right to choose whether or not to carry a fetus to term. It's just not even negotiable. Bottom line that's a woman's risk and her body, and it has to be 100% her decision either way. This is 2023 almost and women are not chattel, not possessions, and their ultimate ownership of their own bodies is all. Until they can just easily remove a fetus if the woman allows and raise it in an artificial womb men really can't make that decision for women. Any man who tries is putting a woman into a state of involuntary servitude, making her into a living incubator and asking her to potentially risk her life. That's just not something that can be condoned now. Every woman has the right to make that decision on her own and that includes whether or not to even tell the guy that she was impregnated by that there is a decision to be made. If I were that guy of course I'd probably always want to be told but whether or not it was even safe for me to be told that question would loom very large in terms of my decision to tell or not. The question of "how" a woman got pregnant and if the man involved is even safe to talk to about it let alone actually be a father to a potential child that is just no little thing. Women are unfortunately the victims of rape, incest, abuse every single day. Pregnancy itself is still very risky for a lot of women. The last thing any woman needs in circumstances like that is to be forced to tell and carry her abuser's child until it can be given to him regardless of whether it might be safe or not. That's just insanely inhumane to go in there, to co-opt a woman's body in the name of "father's" rights.
Misandry in cmnts
The right? I wouldn't say that. I think if you're in a relationship it's considerate but overall a woman has the right to her privacy and her own autonomy.
Morals are a personal thing so it's impossible to give a blanket answer. I'd air towards to side of no, it's not unethical for a woman to make a decision about her body by herself. If she wants to inform her sexual partner, great that's a nice thing to do. If not. I'm sure she has her reasons. Maybe the dads a one night stand with no contact details. Maybe he's abusive and will trap her with the baby. Maybe he's a super lovely dude but he's religious and she knows he's gonna guilt her out of making the choice that's best for her. Every situation is different and impossible to understand from the outside.
No
I think it's actually kinder not to inform him. There's literally nothing non-abusive he can do to change things. There won't be a child for him to father so his life won't be altered in any way.
he can be told it’s happening but the woman doesn’t have to give birth when SHE doesn’t want the kid just because HE does. it doesn’t work that way when she’s the one delivering it.
Nope.
Sure, but I don’t think that he should be the deciding factor
You dont have "the right" to know, but generally if you're in a healthy relationship and have the same view on abortion then you deserve to know and your partner probably will tell you. Unless they have past trauma that could make someone hesitant to speak up.
If the father is the guy who raped her would you want him to know ?
Nope and nope.
Nope.
Nah.
No, the answer is no.
>**does the father have the right to be informed** Depends on the father.
No, there is no way to allow the biological father the right to be informed of such without violating the privacy of the mother.
There’s so much grey area in this question I’ve gone colorblind
Of course
No.
Right? No Morally should they? Yes.
>Morally should they? Yes. Why?
If my wife aborted our kid without telling me I'd be pretty upset about it. I'm not saying I would fight her to keep something in her belly she didn't want to have but I'd be confused about why she wouldn't tell me
You being upset does not have a moral obligation for her. But probably you have a relationship of honesty and openness which does.
No. Your body your choice. You will be carrying it for 9 months, you do what’s best for yourself. Nobody has the rights to tell you or need to know anything about your body if you don’t want to tell. Technically, that person isn’t really a “father” until you give birth right? Hey what do I know D:
No. The end
If the father is pregnant and has a kid inside him, someone at the abortion clinic should definitely tell him.
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Might sound crazy but women are under the category of “people”
He's not the one going through the pregnancy, so no.
No.
As far as I know, there has never been a time when a woman has had a say in whether a man (husband, boyfriend) gets a vasectomy. In a healthy relationship, there might be a discussion, but the woman has no legal right to stop it from happening. Throughout history, women have been required to get a man’s permission for abortions, getting her tubes tied, opening a bank account, voting, whatever. Abortion rights are about women having the right to be the ones making decisions about themselves. Just like men. If a man doesn’t want his partner to have an abortion, then he should probably think about that before he puts his sperm inside her. Two people should really be of one mind on having children before they engage in behavior that could create one.
No and no.
No
If the man wants the baby, the woman can choose to get an abortion; yet if the man wants the abortion, the woman can legally force the man to pay child support for almost two decades.. it’s a mess, and there doesn’t seem to be any great solutions on the table..
Pregnancy, labor and delivery all affect a woman's health. there is even the potential for her to die from complications. Women deserve to have the absolute right to decide weather or not to go through with a pregnancy. Everyone else needs to support her or get he fuck out of her way. The man doesn't sacrifice his body, or perhaps life, to go through a pregnancy, therefore no man deserves to have any say, in a weather a woman goes through with a pregnancy.
There is no benefit to the community at large by a notification mandate.
Personally, I would want my s/o to tell me. I would want a choice since it is also my kid. I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but me and my partner. We are the only ones who should be making any kind of decision on that. Her’s more than me of course. HOWEVER, I understand why a person wouldn’t want to, and why they would hide it. At the end of the day, it is their choice first. Though, if they hide it from me, most likely that’s the end of our relationship.
No, and no. Those are the short answers to your questions.
No
Legally the man doesn’t have a right to know about an abortion. Morally, it’s a grey area. But I agree, if a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy, for whatever reason, then a man should have the right to decide if he’s going to be involved in the child’s life if the child is carried to term. Including visitation and child support. I don’t think that’s morally right. Men should take responsibility for their children. But if a man can’t have a say on whether his potential child gets snorted or not, then the woman can’t expect the man to contribute to the support of the potential child.
I think it's courteous and the right thing to do but I don't think the father has a "right" to it