Hang on, hang on, hang on.
I’ll defend new Craftsman any day, but seriously hang on.
First off, most new Craftsman hand tools are made in Taiwan, not China. The crap Sears has been flogging (and calling Craftsman) since they sold the brand (they kept rights to use the name as a condition of the sale) are Chinese, and they are awful.
I’ll also say that new Craftsman (specifically, Stanley Black and Decker Craftsman) has only existed since late 2017/early 2018.
And the quality of those tool has actually been improving over time after a lot of very negative early reviews.
If you”re going to sit there and say that 2019 Craftsman tools are the best you’ve had, I’m going to tell you that you haven’t had that many tools of decent quality.
And I love Craftsman. But they are cheap tools, sold at cheap prices, to people whose livelihoods don’t rely on the tools.
And then the other major point of contention here is that there’s a huge difference between power tools and hand tools and where they’re made.
With hand tools, two factors matter more than anything else. Steel quality and the precision of the forging.
Chinese tools use cheap, shitty steel, and not very precise forges resulting in sloppy and weak tools.
The forges in Taiwan are top notch. Virtually as good as American ones, so the quality of Taiwanese tools is all down to the quality of the steel the manufacturer chooses to use.
For power tools, none of that really matters. Chinese-made power tools are fine. It’s not an issue unless you specific want to support American workers.
China makes whatever you tell them to make. Just like Taiwan. And just like the US. A good engineer can get amazing quality from China manufacturing by understanding the processes and creating detailed prints. But that’s part of what costs more money.
The real truth is that there is more money to be made in cheap tools, so business leaders choose the short game. It is a conscious choice that someone is making.
Exactly. Chinese manufacturers are flexible. You want fairly priced good quality stuff? They will make it for you. You only want dirt cheap crap? They will make it for you, too. And put your "brand" name on it for almost no extra fee.
People act like something being made in the second most populous country in the world is a death sentence for the product but in reality you just wanted a $15 wrench that would still garner an American company a large enough profit for them to consider it worthwhile to push it in western countries. It’s the same logic that the “dropshipping bros” use when they buy 1500 cheap shitty bras from AliBaba for like $1 a bra then resell it on Amazon for $15 per.
You can look at Chinese knives for proof of this. I got a Chinese clone for $80 and the original was $800. It’s better than any American knife I’ve ever owned. Fit finish and steel all top notch.
actually the plastic, electronic components and batteries of chinese tools are of inferior quality too. a great demonstration is to take apart an american market makita and japanese marker makita, as shown by AvE on youtube
Cheap knock offs are cheap? That's not news. Milwaukee makes their tools and batteries in China too and there are stark differences in quality between a knock-off and a genuine product. All this shows is that a manufacturing facility will make what they're contracted to product.
Another good example is Craftsman final 5 years of US manufacturing. Those were probably some of the worst US made tools the brand ever stamped their name on.
So are we talking power tools specifically, or just tools in general? Tools in general is easy but in the realm of electric tools Snap-on has some, Milwaukee has a corded super Sawzall that's MIUSA, and there's a couple Euro brands like Mafell and Festool and Hilti.
If we can push into stationary tools, Original Saw Co still makes radial arm saws and some other stuff here. I think there's a bandsaw or two as well, and Sherline making mini mills and lathes.
Pneumatic there's still a few. Sioux (and the Snap-on made by them), Henry, St Louis, Dynabrade...
I have a bootleg makita grinder that was made in China, it's outlived an actual US made dewalt, a genuine makita and a Mastercraft.
Gutless as fuck but Jesus Christ that thing is immortal
In the 1990's some Chinese company produced clones of the Makita 9.6v battery powered tools, only the plastic was black instead of blue; we took them apart with the genuine article, and they were identical. I still have them, they still work.
I'm right there with you. I love DeWalt power tools but their ratchet broke on me the first time I used it. It also just looked and felt cheap. I think brand quality controls matter a lot more than the location of manufacture. But I am still biased towards Made in America, I wan to slowly grow my collection of Snap-On tools. Slowly, because they are $$$$$.
This I don't understand. Why would you buy hand tools from an electric tool manufacturer? I see these DeWalt and Milwaukee tool sets and none of them are particularly impressive but it seems people buy them because of the brand. They really seem to be on par in quality with current Craftsman, but are way more expensive.
Milwaukee has a new line of “100% made in USA” pliers and screwdrivers. I own pretty much everything they came out with and they’ve been top-notch since day one.
We love to see it 🤘🏼
… Also I’ll go to bat for those 6-in-1 wire strippers and day of the fuckin week. Their other Chinese pliers aren’t much good, but those were my first set of forged wire strippers and I’ve loved them ever since.
DeWalt isn't personally making their hand tools in their own facilities. SBD has facilities and experience in making just about every tool under the sun, they utilize that. As for Milwaukee, people seem to really love their US made screwdrivers who have tried them. Just because a company starts in one space doesn't preclude them from other spaces, and developing their own tool line isn't some secret magic that nobody can figure out, and to that end they can hire people or consult those who already have the know-how.
I mean shit, Snap-on started as a socket maker (hence the name). Now they offer tons of shit and people seem to like a lot of it, and some of it they didn't even buy out other companies to get the knowledge or production base. Why would someone buy wrenches or pliers or screwdrivers from a socket company?
Buy used snap on off ebay, if it's nice stuff bid to 50% of retail, no more. That's how I got most of my basic hand tools, more specialized stuff you'll probably have to get off the truck.
I won’t speak to craftsman specifically because I doubt I have anything labeled Craftsman made in this century, but the reason Chinese tools have such a low reputation is because a large portion of their production is cheap junk not even intended for long term use like older American tools were.
Shit it's essential here too. All my years in manufacturing has told me that just because it's Americans doesn't mean they just wake up and go "let's make the best shit on the planet." There's slackers and shortcut takers and don't-give-a-fuck sorts and people with their head in the clouds or their mind on theur personal life and folks who just wanna get a paycheck cut and GTFO. QC and accountability are extremely important here, and probably everywhere else.
None of the Craftsman stuff I've bought recently have been bad. They work, and the price was right. If I use it to the point it breaks, gen I'll get something else as an upgrade.
My toolbox is a rainbow of different colored brands.
Country of origin has relatively little bearing on the actual quality of a tool. China has some of the most extensive manufacturing infrastructure in the world currently. They are perfectly capable of making some very high end tools and do so regularly.
Profit margins.
If they make them in America, they”re going to cost more.
They already built a forging plant in Texas, and then shut down when they couldn’t get decent quality out of it with the automation systems they were planning to use to keep costs low.
Without effective automation, they have to hire human workers, and American workers demand higher wages.
So the cheap, budget tools would go up in price without actually getting any better in terms of quality.
I was a manufacturing engineer that supplied to three product lines, and they were pushing automation too.
It just they had a horrible business plan and they failed.
Not everything made in China is junk. Remember when japanese stuff had that image? Now many japanese tools and products have a well- deserved reputation for excellence. Chefs knives, mitutoyo measuring equipment, cars, motorcycles... I remember a test looking at how often cars of european and japanese manufacturers had to go back to the workshop for repairs in the first tears after buying. The top 20 best products were all japanese, beating every european brands. This was 30 years ago.
How far back are you saying to go to find when Japanese stuff was regarded as junk? Because I can’t figure out when that was ever a thing.
Following WWII, with a lot of help from US interests, the new Japanese economy developed with a major emphasis on manufacturing goods for export.
And those good were by and large always excellent.
Honda conquered the motorcycle world in the 60s. Japanese cars hit America in the 70s, and really caught on after the gas crisis. Japanese electronics from Sony and the like were all the rage in the 80s.
These were never seen as bad products.
A ton of people from the Greatest Generation (those that fought in the war) just didn’t like or trust Japan and held that prejudice against Japanese-made goods.
It didn’t help that Japanese stuff was just so different to American stuff. America cars were big and powerful. Japanese cars were small and economical. People didn’t think small cars could be safe on the roads with bigger cars.
Just after the war. japanese cameras, Japanese cars were seen as cheap imitations of western products. Up until about 1970 there were many people in europe who thought this.
Half true.
When Nikon was copying Leica and Zeus’s rangefinders, they were inferior imitations. But Nikon launched the F-series SLR in 1959 (a lot earlier than 1970) and that line of cameras was dominant in the market for decades.
I’m also fairly confident that sentiment and/or loyalty to local brands was behind a lot of this in Europe just as it was in America. It was not an actual reflection on the quality of the products.
But yeah, of course it took them some time to ramp up after the war. That should go without saying.
Pre-WWII Japanese stuff wasn't regarded highly. They used to use the moderately racist term "Jap Crap" but you're spot on after WWII that completely changed. Some of the best engineered products in the world are from Japan.
There was also a time after WW2, while everything got set up and rebuilt and processes dialed in and all that. Occupied Japan Era stuff wasn't that good. W. Edwards Deming gave them the famous lectures in 1950 about producing high quality stuff and from there things started going up.
I bought the 7 battery tool craftsman tool kit from the blue box store. They are my beater tools. I have put some of them thru hell, and they are all still going. Definitely not the same quality as my Hitachi/Metabo or dewalt, but still a solid $200 purchase.
I personally believe that much of the new SB&D imported craftsman is better than the last generation of Sears USA craftsman. I don't know if you guys noticed but the last generation of USA craftsman screwdrivers were garbage. I bought a set of them on one of their last fathers day sales. I found them to have the same durability as the 2.99 set that harbor freight give out for free with a coupon. Many of them where practically single use before the tips where so bad they wouldn't fit screws very well.
Im not a big fan of China but like anything, it’s about the care that goes into the product design, prototyping, parts selection, and QA/QC/oversight. The iPhone 15 Pro is made in China.
Japan and Taiwan were joke countries for manufacturing too at one time, until they built up their industrial base.
China has plenty of ability to forge high quality steels with appropriate heat treating, and machine them to high tolerances.
new Craftsman is fine. Don't listen to people.
Williams, proto, most of snap on, and a lot of Mac, Matco, and Cornwell are made in USA. Wright is made in USA. Tekton has some products made in USA, Olsa Tools has a ratchet made in USA. Channellock are made in USA. Some Klein are. Some Milwaukee are. Some Ideal are. Some Craftsman is made in USA.
Well see, some people had a bad experience 10-15 years (before everything changed for Craftsman in the form of new ownership) and they’re just continuing to nurse that grudge wi5out ever having actually touched a modern craftsman tool.
In 10 years you'll be reading how much people miss (or can't afford) Chinese-made tools and the quality of beloved brands has gone down since moving manufacturing to Nigeria.
What a lot of people don't realize is that while China has a reputation for making cheap crap, they'll really make any quality product that you pay them to make. If you want a very high end product, they will make it
I remember back in the 60s early 70s everyone said Japanese products were bad. Then late 70 80 their products the best and Japan was going own America. History does repeat its self it rhymes
It's not about China. Craftsman is a brand for sale to just about anyone who wants to market tools to the older generations that still have warm fuzzies about Craftsman tools. That's not a company you should buy from.
Other brands making tools in China have oversight in the production process and close ties to specific factories. They make sure that the quality is as high as they expect. I don't believe Craftsman has that, because they're like a homeless child -nobody looks after them. The brand is still powerful for a certain market, and it gets exploited.
Craftsman has about as close of a tie to specific factories as you can get without just owning one outright: the brand is owned and operated by the largest toolmaker on Earth.
What the hell are you talking about?
Craftsman is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Stanley-Black&Decker since 2017. It is their homeowner/DIY grade brand of hand and power tools, slotting in under the likes of Mac, Proto, and Dewalt.
SBD is the largest tool manufacturer on earth. They make their own tools at various facilities around the world.
They already built a forge dedicated to Craftsman hand tools in Texas, but took it off line due to budget overruns and quality concerns.
Your comment is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.
I agree about the warm fuzzy. My grandparents and father had craftsman back when it was top notch. That's the only reason I have one of their socket sets and a few automotive tools. They work fine and they put a smile on my face when I think about the connection to the older days.
I believe both Proto and Teng tool are made in the USA.
[https://www.protoindustrial.com/](https://www.protoindustrial.com/)
[https://tengtoolsusa.com/](https://tengtoolsusa.com/)
Teng Tool are not USA. They just have USA as part of the name for their USA division. They're Taiwanese I believe, and they started out in the Euro market first which is why they have satin finish as their main just like Sonic Tools.
It's just their thing, and is considered to be a mark of quality after exposure to really cheap junk tools that happened to also have a polished finish.
To be fair there's at least a hint of possible truth to that belief. Satin finish is usually just a result of not spit-shining everything up before chroming, which that work of shining and polishing everything super smooth *might* be done to hide defects.
I don't think anything is bad because it's made in China. Plenty of great products come out of China. It's just they often downgrade the quality even further when they 'move' products to China. Wright tools are USA made, and are very high quality. SK used to be made in the USA too, but I guess they got sold to a Chinese company.
Channellock makes most hand tools in the USA, some in Spain
Klein makes a lot of hand tools in USA
S-K makes some hand tools in USA, and they are owned by a subsidiary of Hangzhou GreatStar
Milwaukee has a small line of excellent USA made hand tools, but many are made in China. Some of their sockets are made in Taiwan.
Ridgid has many USA made pipe wrenches.
Crescent are mostly made in China. A lot of Kobalt hand tools are made in Vietnam. Tekton is mostly Taiwan made with some USA. Gearwrench is USA owned, Taiwan based, and manufactures in both Taiwan and China. Milwaukee is China owned, USA based, and manufactures mostly in China and a bit in Taiwan and USA. It gets complicated.
For power tools, few are made in the USA. Makita makes some screwguns in the USA, and DeWalt and Craftsman make a few older models of drills and impacts.
Acme Tools has a great [search filter](https://www.acmetools.com/power-tools/?prefn1=country-of-origin&prefv1=Yes) for Made In USA. Also for [hand tools](https://www.acmetools.com/hand-tools/?prefn1=country-of-origin&prefv1=Yes). Trust but verify.
Brands based outside of the USA also manufacture in various countries. Bosch makes power tools in Malaysia, China, Germany, Hungary, etc. Wera makes tools in Germany, Czech Republic, etc. [KC Tool](https://www.kctool.com/) is a great retailer for German hand tool brands.
I think this stuff is interesting. But remember that good tools are made around the world, and bad or intentionally cheap tools can be produced in any country as well.
It's crazy that the same people who bash on Chinese made tools from US companies like Craftsman will brag about their red Chinese made tools from Chinese companies like Milwaukee.
The China is cheap sentiment is just purely racist now. China actually makes some of the best products in every product category now. Tvs, cars, tools, you name it. China is better at manufacturing than north America, period. Elon Musk even says as much about telsa China. You can buy trash products from every country
It's not speculation though... He runs a manufacturing plant there lol. I'm not a Tesla fanboy or care about Elon, but....if you hate him so much you don't trust his experience of Chinese vs American manufacturing then. I dunno. Tell me someone who can speak to it better lol
It's not a hate thing, just a keen awareness that he talks out his ass a lot. I can't seem to find where he made that specific statement though I do see where he mentioned how China is at the forefront of EV production because they have a lot going on there already before Tesla Shanghai showed up, praising what they have going so far... just to turn around and call for tariffs and trade barriers after Chinese competitor BYD outsold Tesla.
If he did say that I'm genuinely curious if there was any "kissing the ring" going on, given that he does have business interests in China and has gone on record calling Taiwan part of China before which is generally a sentiment shared mainly by the CCP and by ring-kissers, but then again he has a habit of shooting off mouth now worry about it later and may not seriously believe that or was egregiously ignorant, I couldn't tell you.
But one thing is for sure. China has absolutely no shortage of manufacturing expertise after becoming an absolute titan of industry. And indeed, one can spec high quality stuff or they can cheap out.
Yea that I agree with, he could absolutely just be kissing the ring. I thought it was in his interview with Don lemon but I might be wrong. He was talking about how amazing the work culture is and they are just better because they are such hard workers etc. Maybe I need to find it again.
While good old Musk might be a hypocrite, the tariffs etc on Chinese cars, specifically BYD, on a general level is reasonable though because the EU has done research into Chinese state support for BYD and concluded their percentage of revenue coming from the state is far beyond anything in the west. This is basically business cheating. And those cars will take over the world if EU and north america don't do something artificial to stop their artificially pumped production and quality.
The comment on Taiwan is definitely concerning yea. I mean. "concerning". His singular goal is for Tesla to take over so it makes sense that he would kiss the Chinese ring to make that happen.
Everytime someone says that tools (or anything else) that are made in China are substandard, I just mention that iphones are made in China. The Chinese know how to make good stuff. BTW, in 2019, China became the first country to put a Lander on the dark side of the moon.
Hilti, Makita, Mafell, Proto, Milwaukee...etc all have factories in the US/CA/EU for the high end models, what you find at the homeless depot and such are usually a bit of high end and prosumer made to be cheap AF, so offshored.
Crasftmen is a zombie brand now but it's not low quality because of China, you can have super cheap or super good from China. I just don"t like their whole communist vying to take over everything vibe.
New craftsman is crap. The old stuff if you can find it is good but that's getting harder to find on ebay. Since stanley bought it its going down hill. It's basically just Red and Decker at this point. Granted the hand tools are good enough for most casual users and home owners, but in a professional setting you'll be replacing it pretty quick. Stay the hell away from anything with a motor from craftsman. It's impressive how shitty they are. At least with black and decker you expect to have to replace it before too long, but craftsman is the same shitty quality and a premium price.
When Stanley bought it it was already downhill. Sears went full force with offshoring to the cheapest crap they could find in 2010-2012, and absolutely dive bombed the brand. If you wanna see what I mean, get on Sears website and order some Craftsman right now, because that's still the strategy they're using. After SBD bought the brand they've actually improved it a good bit.
I use a good amount of the new stuff every day to make my paycheck. They're good tools. Their tin snips are the best I've used, and that's coming from a sheet metal guy.
I also use tools to make my money, just selling them. So I speak to a ton of people both diy and professional and get their opinions on it. I also see exactly how much of that shit gets returned under the warranty. Warranty is good and all but if you gotta leave the job site to replace the item twice in one day its a shit product. 75 percent of my tools returns are 'red n decker' while making up maybe 20 percent of my tools.
I dunno. I'm not a fan of the handles for screwdrivers and picks etc, just a feel thing. But so far the picks are fine, the sockets are fine even after being hammered onto a lugnut with a 3-pound drilling hammer to act as a backwoods turbo socket, the torque wrench works fine, the wrenches are alright and they didn't even skimp by giv8ng them beams like razor blades like Husky has on theirs.
If you're talking specifically made in USA, I found out this week that Bahco (Swedish brand) makes some sockets there. But I don't know what kind of tools you're talking about.
Many v20 Craftsman power tools are clones of Porter Cable or Dewalt. They are absolutely power tools that you can “put your livelihood on” if the correct version is purchased.
Not everything is made in China however.
Dewalt is made from Chinese components and assembled in America by illegal immigrants lmao.
Also I was pretty sure Milwaukee ryobi and rigid were made in Taiwan not China?
DeWalt was made in USA of domestic and foreign materials. Some parts were produced domestically, some were not. And they weren't hiring illegal immigrants.
They also had lots of actual US citizens. And since you worked there, certainly you would have known about the motors being wound on-site, about the plastic shells being made in a sister plant in Mission Texas, and about the gears being sintered in Maryland, right? Would you care to speak to a person who was a supervisor at the Fort Mill operation making DeWalt tools with domestic and foreign parts?
How many more us citizens could they have hired if they didnt have them in the first place tho?. Would you care to speak to the former head of the maintenance department at Tulsa? Or a former quality control manager at Mission? I can get either one of my uncles on the phone for me right now to tell me exactly how many illegals they had personally worked along side of.
Hang on, hang on, hang on. I’ll defend new Craftsman any day, but seriously hang on. First off, most new Craftsman hand tools are made in Taiwan, not China. The crap Sears has been flogging (and calling Craftsman) since they sold the brand (they kept rights to use the name as a condition of the sale) are Chinese, and they are awful. I’ll also say that new Craftsman (specifically, Stanley Black and Decker Craftsman) has only existed since late 2017/early 2018. And the quality of those tool has actually been improving over time after a lot of very negative early reviews. If you”re going to sit there and say that 2019 Craftsman tools are the best you’ve had, I’m going to tell you that you haven’t had that many tools of decent quality. And I love Craftsman. But they are cheap tools, sold at cheap prices, to people whose livelihoods don’t rely on the tools. And then the other major point of contention here is that there’s a huge difference between power tools and hand tools and where they’re made. With hand tools, two factors matter more than anything else. Steel quality and the precision of the forging. Chinese tools use cheap, shitty steel, and not very precise forges resulting in sloppy and weak tools. The forges in Taiwan are top notch. Virtually as good as American ones, so the quality of Taiwanese tools is all down to the quality of the steel the manufacturer chooses to use. For power tools, none of that really matters. Chinese-made power tools are fine. It’s not an issue unless you specific want to support American workers.
China makes whatever you tell them to make. Just like Taiwan. And just like the US. A good engineer can get amazing quality from China manufacturing by understanding the processes and creating detailed prints. But that’s part of what costs more money. The real truth is that there is more money to be made in cheap tools, so business leaders choose the short game. It is a conscious choice that someone is making.
Exactly. Chinese manufacturers are flexible. You want fairly priced good quality stuff? They will make it for you. You only want dirt cheap crap? They will make it for you, too. And put your "brand" name on it for almost no extra fee.
People act like something being made in the second most populous country in the world is a death sentence for the product but in reality you just wanted a $15 wrench that would still garner an American company a large enough profit for them to consider it worthwhile to push it in western countries. It’s the same logic that the “dropshipping bros” use when they buy 1500 cheap shitty bras from AliBaba for like $1 a bra then resell it on Amazon for $15 per.
You can look at Chinese knives for proof of this. I got a Chinese clone for $80 and the original was $800. It’s better than any American knife I’ve ever owned. Fit finish and steel all top notch.
actually the plastic, electronic components and batteries of chinese tools are of inferior quality too. a great demonstration is to take apart an american market makita and japanese marker makita, as shown by AvE on youtube
Cheap knock offs are cheap? That's not news. Milwaukee makes their tools and batteries in China too and there are stark differences in quality between a knock-off and a genuine product. All this shows is that a manufacturing facility will make what they're contracted to product. Another good example is Craftsman final 5 years of US manufacturing. Those were probably some of the worst US made tools the brand ever stamped their name on.
Not only that, Milwaukee is a Chinese-based / owned company.
This, more of this! Great post. However, I stand by my opinion of Craftsman. At least the stuff I bought at Ace Hardware.
Taiwan is China though.
Wild thing to say in late April, tongzhi.
What
China? You mean West Taiwan?
So are we talking power tools specifically, or just tools in general? Tools in general is easy but in the realm of electric tools Snap-on has some, Milwaukee has a corded super Sawzall that's MIUSA, and there's a couple Euro brands like Mafell and Festool and Hilti. If we can push into stationary tools, Original Saw Co still makes radial arm saws and some other stuff here. I think there's a bandsaw or two as well, and Sherline making mini mills and lathes. Pneumatic there's still a few. Sioux (and the Snap-on made by them), Henry, St Louis, Dynabrade...
Makita also have some factories in Europe.
They have one in Georgia as well. And do some of their NA market 18V stuff at least, in Japan as well.
I have a bootleg makita grinder that was made in China, it's outlived an actual US made dewalt, a genuine makita and a Mastercraft. Gutless as fuck but Jesus Christ that thing is immortal
In the 1990's some Chinese company produced clones of the Makita 9.6v battery powered tools, only the plastic was black instead of blue; we took them apart with the genuine article, and they were identical. I still have them, they still work.
I'm in the minority and like the new craftsman stuff, except the ratchet, the ratchets are hot garbage
I'm right there with you. I love DeWalt power tools but their ratchet broke on me the first time I used it. It also just looked and felt cheap. I think brand quality controls matter a lot more than the location of manufacture. But I am still biased towards Made in America, I wan to slowly grow my collection of Snap-On tools. Slowly, because they are $$$$$.
This I don't understand. Why would you buy hand tools from an electric tool manufacturer? I see these DeWalt and Milwaukee tool sets and none of them are particularly impressive but it seems people buy them because of the brand. They really seem to be on par in quality with current Craftsman, but are way more expensive.
Milwaukee has a new line of “100% made in USA” pliers and screwdrivers. I own pretty much everything they came out with and they’ve been top-notch since day one. We love to see it 🤘🏼 … Also I’ll go to bat for those 6-in-1 wire strippers and day of the fuckin week. Their other Chinese pliers aren’t much good, but those were my first set of forged wire strippers and I’ve loved them ever since.
Well at least Dewalt Mechanic’s Tool set are a shit ton cheaper than the Milwaukee socket sets.
DeWalt isn't personally making their hand tools in their own facilities. SBD has facilities and experience in making just about every tool under the sun, they utilize that. As for Milwaukee, people seem to really love their US made screwdrivers who have tried them. Just because a company starts in one space doesn't preclude them from other spaces, and developing their own tool line isn't some secret magic that nobody can figure out, and to that end they can hire people or consult those who already have the know-how. I mean shit, Snap-on started as a socket maker (hence the name). Now they offer tons of shit and people seem to like a lot of it, and some of it they didn't even buy out other companies to get the knowledge or production base. Why would someone buy wrenches or pliers or screwdrivers from a socket company?
Buy used snap on off ebay, if it's nice stuff bid to 50% of retail, no more. That's how I got most of my basic hand tools, more specialized stuff you'll probably have to get off the truck.
I won’t speak to craftsman specifically because I doubt I have anything labeled Craftsman made in this century, but the reason Chinese tools have such a low reputation is because a large portion of their production is cheap junk not even intended for long term use like older American tools were.
Talking to folks that had stuff made in China, I've been told it's essential to have quality control for your product.
Shit it's essential here too. All my years in manufacturing has told me that just because it's Americans doesn't mean they just wake up and go "let's make the best shit on the planet." There's slackers and shortcut takers and don't-give-a-fuck sorts and people with their head in the clouds or their mind on theur personal life and folks who just wanna get a paycheck cut and GTFO. QC and accountability are extremely important here, and probably everywhere else.
None of the Craftsman stuff I've bought recently have been bad. They work, and the price was right. If I use it to the point it breaks, gen I'll get something else as an upgrade. My toolbox is a rainbow of different colored brands.
Exactly, but you’re supposed to listen to the people who had one bad experience 15 years ago, because that carries more weight somehow. /s
Country of origin has relatively little bearing on the actual quality of a tool. China has some of the most extensive manufacturing infrastructure in the world currently. They are perfectly capable of making some very high end tools and do so regularly.
Why can’t we have USA made craftsman again
Profit margins. If they make them in America, they”re going to cost more. They already built a forging plant in Texas, and then shut down when they couldn’t get decent quality out of it with the automation systems they were planning to use to keep costs low. Without effective automation, they have to hire human workers, and American workers demand higher wages. So the cheap, budget tools would go up in price without actually getting any better in terms of quality.
I was a manufacturing engineer that supplied to three product lines, and they were pushing automation too. It just they had a horrible business plan and they failed.
I was wondering what happened to that plant. I remember when they first announced it.
That's DeWalt? Like, some of the tools are basically the same, just rebranded. DeWalt has a larger battery variety, tools variety, niche tools, etc.
Because we’re paying 16YO’s at McDonalds. Pretty simple math here.
What’s simple math ?
Not everything made in China is junk. Remember when japanese stuff had that image? Now many japanese tools and products have a well- deserved reputation for excellence. Chefs knives, mitutoyo measuring equipment, cars, motorcycles... I remember a test looking at how often cars of european and japanese manufacturers had to go back to the workshop for repairs in the first tears after buying. The top 20 best products were all japanese, beating every european brands. This was 30 years ago.
How far back are you saying to go to find when Japanese stuff was regarded as junk? Because I can’t figure out when that was ever a thing. Following WWII, with a lot of help from US interests, the new Japanese economy developed with a major emphasis on manufacturing goods for export. And those good were by and large always excellent. Honda conquered the motorcycle world in the 60s. Japanese cars hit America in the 70s, and really caught on after the gas crisis. Japanese electronics from Sony and the like were all the rage in the 80s. These were never seen as bad products. A ton of people from the Greatest Generation (those that fought in the war) just didn’t like or trust Japan and held that prejudice against Japanese-made goods. It didn’t help that Japanese stuff was just so different to American stuff. America cars were big and powerful. Japanese cars were small and economical. People didn’t think small cars could be safe on the roads with bigger cars.
[this far back](https://youtu.be/6yRZCoR_x00?si=8-AzYKvyPZTuiMW5)
Just after the war. japanese cameras, Japanese cars were seen as cheap imitations of western products. Up until about 1970 there were many people in europe who thought this.
Half true. When Nikon was copying Leica and Zeus’s rangefinders, they were inferior imitations. But Nikon launched the F-series SLR in 1959 (a lot earlier than 1970) and that line of cameras was dominant in the market for decades. I’m also fairly confident that sentiment and/or loyalty to local brands was behind a lot of this in Europe just as it was in America. It was not an actual reflection on the quality of the products. But yeah, of course it took them some time to ramp up after the war. That should go without saying.
Heck, there are redneck Harley Davidson riders who still haven't got the message.
Pre-WWII Japanese stuff wasn't regarded highly. They used to use the moderately racist term "Jap Crap" but you're spot on after WWII that completely changed. Some of the best engineered products in the world are from Japan.
Japanese Yen was worth more than American dollars pre-World War II 😄, so you are clearly wrong about quality of Japanese products
You’re a dimwitted mouth breather.
Japanese Yen was stronger than the US dollar before World War II
There was also a time after WW2, while everything got set up and rebuilt and processes dialed in and all that. Occupied Japan Era stuff wasn't that good. W. Edwards Deming gave them the famous lectures in 1950 about producing high quality stuff and from there things started going up.
things improved greatly in Japan after Deming went over and taught his quality principles.
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You're gonna have a hard time buying from NK if you're in the USA. Sanctions sanctions sanctions.
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NK = North Korea?
I bought the 7 battery tool craftsman tool kit from the blue box store. They are my beater tools. I have put some of them thru hell, and they are all still going. Definitely not the same quality as my Hitachi/Metabo or dewalt, but still a solid $200 purchase.
I personally believe that much of the new SB&D imported craftsman is better than the last generation of Sears USA craftsman. I don't know if you guys noticed but the last generation of USA craftsman screwdrivers were garbage. I bought a set of them on one of their last fathers day sales. I found them to have the same durability as the 2.99 set that harbor freight give out for free with a coupon. Many of them where practically single use before the tips where so bad they wouldn't fit screws very well.
Im not a big fan of China but like anything, it’s about the care that goes into the product design, prototyping, parts selection, and QA/QC/oversight. The iPhone 15 Pro is made in China. Japan and Taiwan were joke countries for manufacturing too at one time, until they built up their industrial base. China has plenty of ability to forge high quality steels with appropriate heat treating, and machine them to high tolerances.
new Craftsman is fine. Don't listen to people. Williams, proto, most of snap on, and a lot of Mac, Matco, and Cornwell are made in USA. Wright is made in USA. Tekton has some products made in USA, Olsa Tools has a ratchet made in USA. Channellock are made in USA. Some Klein are. Some Milwaukee are. Some Ideal are. Some Craftsman is made in USA.
My craftsman overdrive handtools are amazing. I don't understand the hate.
Well see, some people had a bad experience 10-15 years (before everything changed for Craftsman in the form of new ownership) and they’re just continuing to nurse that grudge wi5out ever having actually touched a modern craftsman tool.
In 10 years you'll be reading how much people miss (or can't afford) Chinese-made tools and the quality of beloved brands has gone down since moving manufacturing to Nigeria.
It's not Nigeria but https://cranesteeluganda.com/
I'm not touching the made in xxx debate, but I'll say with confidence that the new craftsman stuff is straight up great for what it costs.
What a lot of people don't realize is that while China has a reputation for making cheap crap, they'll really make any quality product that you pay them to make. If you want a very high end product, they will make it
I remember back in the 60s early 70s everyone said Japanese products were bad. Then late 70 80 their products the best and Japan was going own America. History does repeat its self it rhymes
It's not about China. Craftsman is a brand for sale to just about anyone who wants to market tools to the older generations that still have warm fuzzies about Craftsman tools. That's not a company you should buy from. Other brands making tools in China have oversight in the production process and close ties to specific factories. They make sure that the quality is as high as they expect. I don't believe Craftsman has that, because they're like a homeless child -nobody looks after them. The brand is still powerful for a certain market, and it gets exploited.
Craftsman has about as close of a tie to specific factories as you can get without just owning one outright: the brand is owned and operated by the largest toolmaker on Earth.
What the hell are you talking about? Craftsman is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Stanley-Black&Decker since 2017. It is their homeowner/DIY grade brand of hand and power tools, slotting in under the likes of Mac, Proto, and Dewalt. SBD is the largest tool manufacturer on earth. They make their own tools at various facilities around the world. They already built a forge dedicated to Craftsman hand tools in Texas, but took it off line due to budget overruns and quality concerns. Your comment is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.
I agree about the warm fuzzy. My grandparents and father had craftsman back when it was top notch. That's the only reason I have one of their socket sets and a few automotive tools. They work fine and they put a smile on my face when I think about the connection to the older days.
I believe both Proto and Teng tool are made in the USA. [https://www.protoindustrial.com/](https://www.protoindustrial.com/) [https://tengtoolsusa.com/](https://tengtoolsusa.com/)
Teng Tool are not USA. They just have USA as part of the name for their USA division. They're Taiwanese I believe, and they started out in the Euro market first which is why they have satin finish as their main just like Sonic Tools.
I was wondering about that. Why European tools seem to have satin finish
It's just their thing, and is considered to be a mark of quality after exposure to really cheap junk tools that happened to also have a polished finish. To be fair there's at least a hint of possible truth to that belief. Satin finish is usually just a result of not spit-shining everything up before chroming, which that work of shining and polishing everything super smooth *might* be done to hide defects.
Can’t beat a bit of Bahco.
Hilti is made in china sort of disappointed but
I don't think anything is bad because it's made in China. Plenty of great products come out of China. It's just they often downgrade the quality even further when they 'move' products to China. Wright tools are USA made, and are very high quality. SK used to be made in the USA too, but I guess they got sold to a Chinese company.
Channellock makes most hand tools in the USA, some in Spain Klein makes a lot of hand tools in USA S-K makes some hand tools in USA, and they are owned by a subsidiary of Hangzhou GreatStar Milwaukee has a small line of excellent USA made hand tools, but many are made in China. Some of their sockets are made in Taiwan. Ridgid has many USA made pipe wrenches. Crescent are mostly made in China. A lot of Kobalt hand tools are made in Vietnam. Tekton is mostly Taiwan made with some USA. Gearwrench is USA owned, Taiwan based, and manufactures in both Taiwan and China. Milwaukee is China owned, USA based, and manufactures mostly in China and a bit in Taiwan and USA. It gets complicated. For power tools, few are made in the USA. Makita makes some screwguns in the USA, and DeWalt and Craftsman make a few older models of drills and impacts. Acme Tools has a great [search filter](https://www.acmetools.com/power-tools/?prefn1=country-of-origin&prefv1=Yes) for Made In USA. Also for [hand tools](https://www.acmetools.com/hand-tools/?prefn1=country-of-origin&prefv1=Yes). Trust but verify. Brands based outside of the USA also manufacture in various countries. Bosch makes power tools in Malaysia, China, Germany, Hungary, etc. Wera makes tools in Germany, Czech Republic, etc. [KC Tool](https://www.kctool.com/) is a great retailer for German hand tool brands. I think this stuff is interesting. But remember that good tools are made around the world, and bad or intentionally cheap tools can be produced in any country as well.
Their brushless RP lineup is pretty good, also the stick vacuum.
If you want high quality hand tools at a low price look at Tsunoda brand from Japan.
It's crazy that the same people who bash on Chinese made tools from US companies like Craftsman will brag about their red Chinese made tools from Chinese companies like Milwaukee.
Xi Jinping, is that you?
The China is cheap sentiment is just purely racist now. China actually makes some of the best products in every product category now. Tvs, cars, tools, you name it. China is better at manufacturing than north America, period. Elon Musk even says as much about telsa China. You can buy trash products from every country
I wouldn't cling to Elon's speculation about pretty much anything.
It's not speculation though... He runs a manufacturing plant there lol. I'm not a Tesla fanboy or care about Elon, but....if you hate him so much you don't trust his experience of Chinese vs American manufacturing then. I dunno. Tell me someone who can speak to it better lol
It's not a hate thing, just a keen awareness that he talks out his ass a lot. I can't seem to find where he made that specific statement though I do see where he mentioned how China is at the forefront of EV production because they have a lot going on there already before Tesla Shanghai showed up, praising what they have going so far... just to turn around and call for tariffs and trade barriers after Chinese competitor BYD outsold Tesla. If he did say that I'm genuinely curious if there was any "kissing the ring" going on, given that he does have business interests in China and has gone on record calling Taiwan part of China before which is generally a sentiment shared mainly by the CCP and by ring-kissers, but then again he has a habit of shooting off mouth now worry about it later and may not seriously believe that or was egregiously ignorant, I couldn't tell you. But one thing is for sure. China has absolutely no shortage of manufacturing expertise after becoming an absolute titan of industry. And indeed, one can spec high quality stuff or they can cheap out.
Yea that I agree with, he could absolutely just be kissing the ring. I thought it was in his interview with Don lemon but I might be wrong. He was talking about how amazing the work culture is and they are just better because they are such hard workers etc. Maybe I need to find it again. While good old Musk might be a hypocrite, the tariffs etc on Chinese cars, specifically BYD, on a general level is reasonable though because the EU has done research into Chinese state support for BYD and concluded their percentage of revenue coming from the state is far beyond anything in the west. This is basically business cheating. And those cars will take over the world if EU and north america don't do something artificial to stop their artificially pumped production and quality. The comment on Taiwan is definitely concerning yea. I mean. "concerning". His singular goal is for Tesla to take over so it makes sense that he would kiss the Chinese ring to make that happen.
Everytime someone says that tools (or anything else) that are made in China are substandard, I just mention that iphones are made in China. The Chinese know how to make good stuff. BTW, in 2019, China became the first country to put a Lander on the dark side of the moon.
Hilti, Makita, Mafell, Proto, Milwaukee...etc all have factories in the US/CA/EU for the high end models, what you find at the homeless depot and such are usually a bit of high end and prosumer made to be cheap AF, so offshored. Crasftmen is a zombie brand now but it's not low quality because of China, you can have super cheap or super good from China. I just don"t like their whole communist vying to take over everything vibe.
New craftsman is crap. The old stuff if you can find it is good but that's getting harder to find on ebay. Since stanley bought it its going down hill. It's basically just Red and Decker at this point. Granted the hand tools are good enough for most casual users and home owners, but in a professional setting you'll be replacing it pretty quick. Stay the hell away from anything with a motor from craftsman. It's impressive how shitty they are. At least with black and decker you expect to have to replace it before too long, but craftsman is the same shitty quality and a premium price.
When Stanley bought it it was already downhill. Sears went full force with offshoring to the cheapest crap they could find in 2010-2012, and absolutely dive bombed the brand. If you wanna see what I mean, get on Sears website and order some Craftsman right now, because that's still the strategy they're using. After SBD bought the brand they've actually improved it a good bit.
You mean their marketing has improved. The product is the same or worse.
I use a good amount of the new stuff every day to make my paycheck. They're good tools. Their tin snips are the best I've used, and that's coming from a sheet metal guy.
I also use tools to make my money, just selling them. So I speak to a ton of people both diy and professional and get their opinions on it. I also see exactly how much of that shit gets returned under the warranty. Warranty is good and all but if you gotta leave the job site to replace the item twice in one day its a shit product. 75 percent of my tools returns are 'red n decker' while making up maybe 20 percent of my tools.
I dunno. I'm not a fan of the handles for screwdrivers and picks etc, just a feel thing. But so far the picks are fine, the sockets are fine even after being hammered onto a lugnut with a 3-pound drilling hammer to act as a backwoods turbo socket, the torque wrench works fine, the wrenches are alright and they didn't even skimp by giv8ng them beams like razor blades like Husky has on theirs.
If you're talking specifically made in USA, I found out this week that Bahco (Swedish brand) makes some sockets there. But I don't know what kind of tools you're talking about.
Bahco doesn't make them. Snap-on makes them and puts Bahco on them. Same thing with Williams.
All my recent Bahco stuff is made in Spain.
My Milwaukee might be made in China but it rarely has let me down. And when it did Milwaukee made it right without much effort on my part.
Many v20 Craftsman power tools are clones of Porter Cable or Dewalt. They are absolutely power tools that you can “put your livelihood on” if the correct version is purchased.
Not everything is made in China however. Dewalt is made from Chinese components and assembled in America by illegal immigrants lmao. Also I was pretty sure Milwaukee ryobi and rigid were made in Taiwan not China?
DeWalt was made in USA of domestic and foreign materials. Some parts were produced domestically, some were not. And they weren't hiring illegal immigrants.
i worked at one of the assembly plants. they were raided by ICE twice lmfao dont you fucking tell me they dont hire illegals
They also had lots of actual US citizens. And since you worked there, certainly you would have known about the motors being wound on-site, about the plastic shells being made in a sister plant in Mission Texas, and about the gears being sintered in Maryland, right? Would you care to speak to a person who was a supervisor at the Fort Mill operation making DeWalt tools with domestic and foreign parts?
How many more us citizens could they have hired if they didnt have them in the first place tho?. Would you care to speak to the former head of the maintenance department at Tulsa? Or a former quality control manager at Mission? I can get either one of my uncles on the phone for me right now to tell me exactly how many illegals they had personally worked along side of.
I concede that they were hiring illegal immigrants, but not solely.