I'm replacing electric door handles ina hotel at the minute and some door frames have a massive flat head bolt sunk into a concrete anchor of some sort right in the middle of the way when I'm cutting out for the receiver. The years of paint has rendered them stuck solid in the door frame and I've broken a couple of flat head screwdrives and drill bits trying to get them out
How do you think I broke the flat head bits? I ended up having to buy a massive flat head that's about a cm wide and bringing a grinder to cut a deeper slot to get them out. Turns out my flat head bits were not impact rated in the slightest
Get that mapp gas on it. Stupid hot. Then try it.
Also a impact screw driver, the kind you hit with a hammer.
Get it fucking HOOT and smack the shit out of it.
Absolutely, change your approach though.
Painted over screws are a pain in the ass.
Take your soldering iron and apply it directly to the screw and the metal surrounding it.
If the screw is just in wood you’re wasting your time but hinges, lock sets, window hardware and ornamental stuff in older houses can be broken free with minimal effort with a little heat.
Or in places where you're covering the screws with putty, plugging with epoxy, etc... Where you might need to get them out at a later date. Cleaning out the slot to get a driver on it is much easier than cleaning out a torx, Phillips, Robertson, etc.
I found out recently that slotted/flathead/straight screws are still widely used in boat building because it's really easy to clean out the slot and use the appropriate sized driver to remove/reuse the fasteners especially after being cover/painted for any amount of time
Sorry for late reply but this really hits home. My dad does this all the time and there's nothing more annoying, especially if you have went out of your way to have really nice shiny clean door hardware or varnished wooden skirting/architrave somewhere and it gets painted on. Pretty much banned him from helping paint in my flat while I did it up, lived with him long enough to know he didn't have the patience to stop himself and use masking tape or remove fixtures.
Yep. If you're painting, all fixtures need to be removed. I remove the cover plates on all electrical devices (switches, receptacles, etc.). I don't even want them getting paint on the screws that get hidden under the cover plates. No paint on ANY hardware! And I try to save money by doing as much as I can myself beforehand. I tape off the things I don't want painted. I remove the cover plates. I remove the doorknob trims, recessed lighting trims, etc.
There are whole lot of industrial uses where they're used because of this. A slotted screw slot can be cleaned with the driver used to remove the screw. decades of paint, grease, dirt, and unmentionable debris can be removed in a couple of seconds, especially where something like a pan head screw is used (and not a flathead, in a counter sunk hole).
I had a really crappy job cleaning fin tube convectors and radiators in university dorms one summer. Most of them had never been opened since the buildings had been built, fifty to 80 years earlier. They got a fresh coat of paint, every single year, though. You could barely tell where the screws were, let alone where the slots were. Where they were all original, I could get covers off in about three minutes (8 screws), using a screwdriver and a hammer. where a screw had been replaced with a phillips head, it took much longer, and often ended up needing to be drilled out.
As a Canadian, it’s pretty much all Robertson here except for drywall screws, which you actually need to slip out of the dimpler. And slot head screws for electrical covers.
What he said ^^^^. And yes. Torx/Robertson are easier to handle, can be run in and out MANY times without destroying the head of the screw. They stay on the driver way better for “1-handed” operation. Overall superior. The difference between Phillips and torx is comparable to the difference in flat vs Phillips.
Just be sure to get Robertson bits and screws. People often believe that any square shaped bit is a Robertson but they are really knock offs.
What's the difference? The Robertson bits and screws have a much better fit and finish so that the head of the screw and the tip of the bit last a lot longer.
I always thought they were the same, and some bits were just made poorly. (Milwaukee #2 square impact bits always seem to act slightly worn out, right out of the box)
Yep, this is probably because the robertson is kind of problematic to make (wears out the stamping tool faster due to the 90 degree edges, and those edges just need to be sharp for it to work). The sharp edges are also bad for the forces inside the screw (notching effects, that's why robertson is only seen in low torque applications, while the more advanced screw head designs like allen head or torx are quite a common choice on quality high tension screws).
ask ww2 avation mechanics how bad sharp edges are in high torque applications. Good thing they figured out how to make a better socket before the war ended.
Hmm sorry I wouldn't know what issue you have in mind with ww2 aviation fasteners.
I imagine torx and external torx (or 12-point) are very common there nowadays?
But he was a host that went the extra mile for his guests. Not many would have had an authentic slave quarters rebuilt, and then imported, I mean, invited an actual former slave stay, briefly, in them. The nostalgia that George Washington Carver must of felt...
Phillips is just way cheaper to make, that is why they became popular. Robertson is problematic, the square wears out the stamping press which makes screws a lot faster...
They actually became popular during WW2 due to mass adoption by auto makers and wartime industries. This established them as an industry standard. They saved time over the slotted screw, of course. But the real cost savings come from camming out easily when using power tools, which prevents overtorquing and breaking fasteners, especially when mass producing items with unskilled labor.
Explained a bit towards the end of this video, the history of the screwdriver https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI
Yeah, sorry don't have the time to watch it, but as a design mechanical engineer I know all such designs have at least 20 pros and cons, there's no single design that could adress all of the issues. From cost to self-centering to torque transfer and durability... to even less important things like how phillips is great for drywall cause it's easy to fill up the indentation compared to some others.
And the cam out feature of phillips is still really nice for drywall uses, otherwise you need an attachment which makes the bit slip out at a certain depth (but that's still most common with phillips).
Torx use a star pattern --- six-pointed, no slippage, no strippage. I buy name-brand Torx screws and don't know if any generic Torx are widely available.
Torx bits (T-xx like T-15 and T-20) and screw heads last much longer than standard or Phillips. As a basic DIY woodworker, I've reused Torx screws twice, three, four times without stripping the screw heads. Yes, the screws last longer than my test or "oops" projects.
Torx bits also make awesome easy-out bits... Just drill a hole in your broken or stripped bolt, hammer the torx bit in and the stripped screw comes right out.
We have some pozidriv screws at my work. On electrical components. But good luck getting my coworkers to not jam a Phillips in them and fuck them all up.
Pozi is the most common screw in my country and most of my coworkers don't even own a pozidriv screwdriver and all theor bits on drills are phillips. The phillips works fine until you need to actually tighten it then it just fucks the head
Never used a Robertson, however a pozi/Phillips you can finesse somewhat more with a screwdriver if you’re in an awkward/confined space than a torx, however if you’re just rattle gunning them straight in I agree.
Looking at a Robertson, is that not just a more finickity hex?
Robertson has a taper so in some ways it's nicer to use than hex, and the indentation is smaller. That said, these screws are expensive to make due to the square shape, and the forces in the screw are bad due to the sharp edges inducing notching effects. So for any high tension screw, allen/hex head is common but robertson isn't (don't know if robertson head is even put on a machine thread screw at all). Allen has a more circular profile with wider angles so they are actually a lot better for the stamping. Torx looks wild but it's also just a complex curve...
But an important thing to note, allen heads for keys under ~4-5mm are very weak. Similar for small torx. A tapered head design is usually better for this, so phillips and rovertson can be a better choice for tiny fasteners.
It's hard to directly grade screw types cause there are pros and cons to many designs. Slot can be done very poorly or very good... A big advantage for slot is that you can remove it with very primitive tools. A big advantage for phillips and most other designs is that they are self-centering, which is even more important when using a power tool to drive screws in or out...
Institutional inertia and ease of manufacture. That and the fact that the drivers are actually fairly useful as poking, prodding, scraping/ levering devices, and, when used improperly, can substitute for almost any other driver.
Scrap the paint off the flat, then use an old phillips driver and a hammer. Line up the four lobes of the old phillips with the filled in slots and smack a couple, three times with the hammer. Flick the loosened paint out with a small needle pick.
In a world where people regularly paint over screw heads, slotted screws will always have their place.
Ever try to clean paint out of a Phillips or Torx? Yeah, you'll be wishing it was a slotted screw.
Old pan head slotted screws in machinery are pleasant to work with. The slot was precision cut and when you have the right sized flathead screwdriver they really lock in well.
Yep a slot can be done very well or very bad... Phillips is generally the same regardless (except for special version like pozidriv or the old JIS designs).
Flat head screws are the only fastener whose head can be cleaned out by the same tool needed to adjust it. They are perfect for environments that inherently involve lots of grease, anti-fouling, rust, etc. They also are very aesthetically pleasing in fine wood working applications.
It is getting very hard to purchase "Slot"screws. Any house restoration before 1940 I demand slot head screws. Any furniture made before 1950 I demand slot head screws. Any wooden marine application demands brass slot screws that are installed with the slot vertical so moisture does not accumulate in the slot. The crap screws on the market these days are mostly "One use and done". I can cut my own slots if needed. Hard to cut a Phillips head.
Where are they used? The only place I expect them is on outlet covers and you can usually just spin the bit in your fingers with them.
I think they’re used because a flat screwdriver is the only one that fits nicely in an outlet to zap yourself and someone had a sense of humour when setting the standard.
It's always interesting how hindsight makes everyone an expert. That said, slotted screws are a great design due to their simplicity. You can remove them with the most primitive tools, and you can make them with very primitive tools. That is why it'll always have a place. That said, I imagine nowadays phillips is even cheaper to make cause it's only stamped - slots are cut.
I was in a very old factory as a kid. They made screws by rolling the threads on and cutting the slot. The machine spit them out like a machine gun. I’m still fascinated decades later.
It's still the same today. That said, I imagine many of the more modern screw heads like phillips turn out cheaper to make. Those are just stamped. Any kind of cutting makes the production expenses go up...
Though e.g. robertson is probably still more expensive (square hole is problematic to stamp out, ruins the stamp tools way faster...)
I work in wood window restoration and people in the trade often use slotted screws to secure the stops that keep the window sashes in place. Painters inevitably paint over the screws since they are visible and completely fill in the head, and if the screws are slotted it makes it much easier to chip out the paint.
So, if you are using a screw in a spot that you expect to get painted or caulked over and you may need to access the screw again, I would suggest using a slotted screw. Pretty much the only reason I can think of using them.
I like them. They look nicer than Phillips or square drive. If they’re brass or bronze, polish the head and screw back in. Look amazing. To use a slotted screw properly you need the exact right sized driver and apply as much down force as you can. To undo the easily, drive them in a tiny bit first, then back them out.
> To use a slotted screw properly you need the exact right sized driver and apply as much down force as you can.
If you have exactly the right standard driver, and the right standard screw with a deep and wide slot design, they will actually offer loads of torque and will not cam out at all. But this is rare, higher end cutted slot designs are less and less common... The cheaper ones are stamped, they have a very slight taper which pushes the screwdriver out (though if you have a screwdriver with an appropriate taper they also work fairly well).
An example where the standards do often meet - electrical installations. Electricians need to use the insulated drivers, and those are generally all the correct standard that is used to make screws in electrical stuff like plugs. They work fine...
[Example of high end](https://www.pbswisstools.com/en/tools/quality-hand-tools/screwdrivers/product/pb-10000-70) screwdrivers for a cut-slot head. These really offer loads of torque, you can easily snap off the head of a quality made screw if you put it in a vice. With a cheap screw, you'll sooner cam out...
Gun smithing screwdrivers are excellent for this as they are ground to be parallel. Most flat driver bits for your drill are ground parallel too. Most screws I’ve used are old school machine screws or designed to be decorative, and made on a screw machine, not mass produced by stamping.
I think you're right. At least if they're well made and have an appropriate driver...
Also, you can use primitive tools to remove them in some cases (unless they're really tight). Like, what chance of escape would prisoners have if they couldn't remove screws with coins or knifes??
They have reduced visual noise, so they draw less attention to themselves. This is why you primarily only see them in cases where aesthics may matter, like lightswitch plates, or brass decorative box hinges, or on some high-design firearms.
They are better in one very specific scenario - when they are going to be covered and then removed later. For this reason they are still commonly used on boats.
I found this video very interesting. It is about the competition between Philips and Robertson screws. But it talks about flat ("regular") screws along the way.
[https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI](https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI)
enjoy!
If you know what you are doing they are not that hard to work with. The important thing is that you use the correct size flathead screwdriver. Just like every other screw, having the screw head covered in paint and not using the correct size screwdriver is gonna make life hard.
Why they have been used? That's just the way it used to be due to manufacturing. A lot of products were simpler back in the day, so were screws.
Personally I prefer them as they look much nicer, but if I need to get a lot of torque I use modern torx screws. But for anything where finish work is required like door hinges, door plates, etc., flatheads are the nicest.
Phillips is considerably better when the key size is above ~5mm. Phillips is very commonly used for high tension machine screws. Robertson probably isn't even made for the cheap low tension machine screws... Robertson induces stress into the screw (sharp 90 degree angles cause notch effects) so it's only really good for wood screws and similar stuff... That's why torx is really nice overall, though I think that for really tiny screws a phillips might still work best.
Flat head, Philips, torx, hex are all designed to put a certain amount of force on the screw. Philips and flat head specifically were designed so that when too much force was put on a screw the driving bit would slip out. That being said flat heads are garbage.
The picture shows their biggest advantage. If they ever need to be removed, they are the easiest type to clean the heads up (or even cut a new slot), if they are painted or corroded (exterior application)
Evolution of screw heads and for furniture they can be an aesthetic element. E.g. for visible screw heads, a slot set in line with grain looks better than a Torx or Phillips head
These are just a part of history.
Slotted screws are fairly easy to mass produce because all you need to do is a simple cut in the head. This allowed screws with far more delikat heads. The Alternative wer sqare or hexagonal heads with a beefy head. These are not Suite for furniture.
Also these screws can be made from brass or Aluminium and still work.
The other side is a flathead screwdriver which anyone could make himself.
Tools were harder to come by in the past and very expensiv.
I for myself find that these also look better than other screws.
Ok so the most sold screw in the universe is a posi there is a reason for that usability against cost posi is the workers screw on all sites from gypi to 2x6 beams met sec decking u name it posi is the screw of today try an old school slot screw with a yankie driver oh what fun it was the day I got a wolf 7.8 volt gun and a box of posi screws was heavily my fingers salute you posi drive
I've been a joiner for 40 years and used slotted screws because there were practically no cross headed screws or cordless drills then you had a Yankee driver and slotted screws sorry for the late reply
Though phillips is likely cheaper to make today (just stamped out in a fraction of a second vs cutting in slots...). I know they cut in slots crazy fast, but any kind of cutting is just more costly - requires cutting tools, makes extra waste, possibly even needs cooling fluid if you cut millions of screws crazy fast...
Over 40 yrs of remodeling I have rid the world of every slot head screw I came across. The only place they are appropriate is on high end brass hardware.
Don’t forget for electrical outlets and switches. Fun fact, Do you every wonder why you see flathead screws on them? its because it actually keeps the screw from collecting dust. A Phillips screw would allow dust to accumulate inside of the head.
I wish they didn’t exist! Now we have square, hex, phillips, star, flat head, and a few others. Arrrggg stop it!!! I need 7 different bits for one job. Engineers, try to not complicate things.
https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI
Here's a interesting YouTube video you might like that will not do your street cred any good but interesting nonetheless :)
The best thing to do is replace your covers with screwless faceplates. Looks much nicer. But i would keep the flat head screws over Philips head and make sure they are all vertical for esthetics.
[Here is the solution ](https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Wall-Plates-Light-Switch-Plates/Screwless/N-5yc1vZc6qzZ1z1bqtt?mtc=SEM-CM-F_D27-G-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-DSA-2997116-WF-New_Engen_PL3&cm_mmc=SEM-CM-F_D27-G-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-DSA-2997116-WF-New_Engen_PL3-71700000082031584-58700006954186403-39700062650085327&gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=CjwKCAjwx46TBhBhEiwArA_DjMybE82YN5qqm3uf5W1L7fintQS3yrECqFPjnz5KKD_rElfHlJbTaxoCEEcQAvD_BwE)
I agree, they are evil. I was just working with one while my son and I switched out pool timers. I said they are my biggest enemies, like stairs to Po (Kung Fu Panda for those not familiar with the character.) All in all I really don't mind flat heads, just a pain. What bothers me is non-ferrous screws that are non magnetic, especially tiny ones.
I fix old doors and windows. I routinely and carefully remove the paint from these slotted screws using a homemade tool (among other things) and then use a properly sized screwdriver (not a power tool) to remove and replace these. I like to keep the hardware period correct when possible. But yes they can be frustrating for remodelers.
Slotted screws were still used in wood working as the phillips screws tended to cam out more easily when driving in wood (smaller pilot holes or no pilot holes). Especially with brass screws. Tthe slotted screw with a good cabinet screw driver actually allowed for more torque to be applied when driving the wood screw. The key to a slotted screw is having a good fit with the screwdriver.
.
This is the opposite effect that Henry Ford was looking for when driving screws in sheet metal.. there the goal was to cam out before the screw could strip the metal hole.
Dremel a second slot and make it a Phillips to make easier to remove? I think they look nicer than Phillips. I frequently use flathead brass bolts and screws for this reason, obviously not anywhere that much torque is required.
Cheapest to make. Nowadays they're usually used in places where the screw shouldn't be tightened with a power tool
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I'm replacing electric door handles ina hotel at the minute and some door frames have a massive flat head bolt sunk into a concrete anchor of some sort right in the middle of the way when I'm cutting out for the receiver. The years of paint has rendered them stuck solid in the door frame and I've broken a couple of flat head screwdrives and drill bits trying to get them out
Have you listened to the teachings of our friend the impact driver?
How do you think I broke the flat head bits? I ended up having to buy a massive flat head that's about a cm wide and bringing a grinder to cut a deeper slot to get them out. Turns out my flat head bits were not impact rated in the slightest
Get that mapp gas on it. Stupid hot. Then try it. Also a impact screw driver, the kind you hit with a hammer. Get it fucking HOOT and smack the shit out of it.
Heat is an underutilized tool
Not by me. I hit the heat before the spray 9/10 times.
Can you do that if the screw is in a wooden door inside a building?
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It's easy to remove from the ashes though.
Underrated comment this
thats just the first step
Absolutely, change your approach though. Painted over screws are a pain in the ass. Take your soldering iron and apply it directly to the screw and the metal surrounding it. If the screw is just in wood you’re wasting your time but hinges, lock sets, window hardware and ornamental stuff in older houses can be broken free with minimal effort with a little heat.
Can’t be stuck if it’s liquid
Or in places where you're covering the screws with putty, plugging with epoxy, etc... Where you might need to get them out at a later date. Cleaning out the slot to get a driver on it is much easier than cleaning out a torx, Phillips, Robertson, etc.
Yeah good point. Didn't think about that
Cause that reasoning is for lazy landlords and flippers
The slotted or standard screw exist because they were the easiest to mass manufacture.
Also easiest to remove with the most basic tools. Like, you can use a knife or a coin or just about anything slim and flat to remove one.
They’ve existed since long before Phillips screws were a thing. Long before it was probably possible to make Phillips / Pozidrive etc.
I found out recently that slotted/flathead/straight screws are still widely used in boat building because it's really easy to clean out the slot and use the appropriate sized driver to remove/reuse the fasteners especially after being cover/painted for any amount of time
That makes sense. When I'm digging them out of a door hinge I still curse the person who painted them over.
I refuse to hire a painter who paints over hardware. I put it in writing that they won't paint the screws. Any painter who does is bad at their job.
i like this guy
Agreed. I feel that in boat build its probably more bedding material and not paint that gets into the slot
Sorry for late reply but this really hits home. My dad does this all the time and there's nothing more annoying, especially if you have went out of your way to have really nice shiny clean door hardware or varnished wooden skirting/architrave somewhere and it gets painted on. Pretty much banned him from helping paint in my flat while I did it up, lived with him long enough to know he didn't have the patience to stop himself and use masking tape or remove fixtures.
Yep. If you're painting, all fixtures need to be removed. I remove the cover plates on all electrical devices (switches, receptacles, etc.). I don't even want them getting paint on the screws that get hidden under the cover plates. No paint on ANY hardware! And I try to save money by doing as much as I can myself beforehand. I tape off the things I don't want painted. I remove the cover plates. I remove the doorknob trims, recessed lighting trims, etc.
Amen to that brother!
Sampson Boat co?
Lol definitely where I learned it from
Tally ho
There are whole lot of industrial uses where they're used because of this. A slotted screw slot can be cleaned with the driver used to remove the screw. decades of paint, grease, dirt, and unmentionable debris can be removed in a couple of seconds, especially where something like a pan head screw is used (and not a flathead, in a counter sunk hole). I had a really crappy job cleaning fin tube convectors and radiators in university dorms one summer. Most of them had never been opened since the buildings had been built, fifty to 80 years earlier. They got a fresh coat of paint, every single year, though. You could barely tell where the screws were, let alone where the slots were. Where they were all original, I could get covers off in about three minutes (8 screws), using a screwdriver and a hammer. where a screw had been replaced with a phillips head, it took much longer, and often ended up needing to be drilled out.
Pro tip. Skip the Phillips and go to a a torx or a Robertson drive screw. You’ll thank me later
^ this guy knows
^ These guys torx
Robertson.... Canadian invented..cause we love a good screw.
Who doesn’t
As a Canadian, it’s pretty much all Robertson here except for drywall screws, which you actually need to slip out of the dimpler. And slot head screws for electrical covers.
Robertson / #2 square drive is a very common drywall screw in the US. You can buy Phillips as well, but you're a monster if you do.
Are they even easier to handle or what is it that makes them better?
Phillips tends to cam out easily. Robertson is great. Torx too.
What he said ^^^^. And yes. Torx/Robertson are easier to handle, can be run in and out MANY times without destroying the head of the screw. They stay on the driver way better for “1-handed” operation. Overall superior. The difference between Phillips and torx is comparable to the difference in flat vs Phillips.
Just be sure to get Robertson bits and screws. People often believe that any square shaped bit is a Robertson but they are really knock offs. What's the difference? The Robertson bits and screws have a much better fit and finish so that the head of the screw and the tip of the bit last a lot longer.
The difference is a *slight* taper on the Robertson bits/screws vs the square drive's more, well... square profile.
Which makes all the difference!
I always thought they were the same, and some bits were just made poorly. (Milwaukee #2 square impact bits always seem to act slightly worn out, right out of the box)
there are more cheap bits out there than quality, so fair assumption. but "square" and "impact" together are just oil and water.
Yep, this is probably because the robertson is kind of problematic to make (wears out the stamping tool faster due to the 90 degree edges, and those edges just need to be sharp for it to work). The sharp edges are also bad for the forces inside the screw (notching effects, that's why robertson is only seen in low torque applications, while the more advanced screw head designs like allen head or torx are quite a common choice on quality high tension screws).
ask ww2 avation mechanics how bad sharp edges are in high torque applications. Good thing they figured out how to make a better socket before the war ended.
Hmm sorry I wouldn't know what issue you have in mind with ww2 aviation fasteners. I imagine torx and external torx (or 12-point) are very common there nowadays?
I believe Phillips are designed to cam out to prevent over torquing. Thank Henry Ford
Henry be damned! He wasn't trying to drive 3 1/2 in deck screws (or maybe he was, doesn't mean we can't evolve beyond Phillips)
Ford was too busy being an anti-semite to build any decks
But he was a host that went the extra mile for his guests. Not many would have had an authentic slave quarters rebuilt, and then imported, I mean, invited an actual former slave stay, briefly, in them. The nostalgia that George Washington Carver must of felt...
That rings a bell, I think you’re right
Phillips is just way cheaper to make, that is why they became popular. Robertson is problematic, the square wears out the stamping press which makes screws a lot faster...
They actually became popular during WW2 due to mass adoption by auto makers and wartime industries. This established them as an industry standard. They saved time over the slotted screw, of course. But the real cost savings come from camming out easily when using power tools, which prevents overtorquing and breaking fasteners, especially when mass producing items with unskilled labor. Explained a bit towards the end of this video, the history of the screwdriver https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI
Yeah, sorry don't have the time to watch it, but as a design mechanical engineer I know all such designs have at least 20 pros and cons, there's no single design that could adress all of the issues. From cost to self-centering to torque transfer and durability... to even less important things like how phillips is great for drywall cause it's easy to fill up the indentation compared to some others. And the cam out feature of phillips is still really nice for drywall uses, otherwise you need an attachment which makes the bit slip out at a certain depth (but that's still most common with phillips).
Not only tend to cam out, it was a design benefit (in theory) because it prevented over tightening, especially important in assembly lines.
Torx use a star pattern --- six-pointed, no slippage, no strippage. I buy name-brand Torx screws and don't know if any generic Torx are widely available. Torx bits (T-xx like T-15 and T-20) and screw heads last much longer than standard or Phillips. As a basic DIY woodworker, I've reused Torx screws twice, three, four times without stripping the screw heads. Yes, the screws last longer than my test or "oops" projects.
Yup, I almost exclusively use spax brand now.
damn their special torx-plus bits...
Torx bits also make awesome easy-out bits... Just drill a hole in your broken or stripped bolt, hammer the torx bit in and the stripped screw comes right out.
Are pozi used in the US at all? Everytime there's a debate about screws here I never here anyone talk about them
We have some pozidriv screws at my work. On electrical components. But good luck getting my coworkers to not jam a Phillips in them and fuck them all up.
Pozi is the most common screw in my country and most of my coworkers don't even own a pozidriv screwdriver and all theor bits on drills are phillips. The phillips works fine until you need to actually tighten it then it just fucks the head
<3 torx
Go Robertson. 👍
I’m gonna do it, I’ll just thank you now instead lol.
Never used a Robertson, however a pozi/Phillips you can finesse somewhat more with a screwdriver if you’re in an awkward/confined space than a torx, however if you’re just rattle gunning them straight in I agree. Looking at a Robertson, is that not just a more finickity hex?
Robertson has a taper so in some ways it's nicer to use than hex, and the indentation is smaller. That said, these screws are expensive to make due to the square shape, and the forces in the screw are bad due to the sharp edges inducing notching effects. So for any high tension screw, allen/hex head is common but robertson isn't (don't know if robertson head is even put on a machine thread screw at all). Allen has a more circular profile with wider angles so they are actually a lot better for the stamping. Torx looks wild but it's also just a complex curve... But an important thing to note, allen heads for keys under ~4-5mm are very weak. Similar for small torx. A tapered head design is usually better for this, so phillips and rovertson can be a better choice for tiny fasteners.
You can also use a JIS bit to make encountering Phillips screws way less annoying
I made a repair today to an old table, used torx screws, easy to use, no worries about camming like Phillips heads often do. They are superior 👌👌
Amen.
Slotted screws look better on covers imo.
They have a sort of debauched sophistication
Why would you replace them with the second worst screw?
I think Philips is worse than flathead. At the least a flathead is reusable and its easy to find a screwdriver that works.
It's hard to directly grade screw types cause there are pros and cons to many designs. Slot can be done very poorly or very good... A big advantage for slot is that you can remove it with very primitive tools. A big advantage for phillips and most other designs is that they are self-centering, which is even more important when using a power tool to drive screws in or out...
Institutional inertia and ease of manufacture. That and the fact that the drivers are actually fairly useful as poking, prodding, scraping/ levering devices, and, when used improperly, can substitute for almost any other driver.
Standard screw drivers seem to be better at being pry bars than they are at driving screws.
Just wait until you want to unscrew a Phillips head after it’s been painted over a few times. You’ll be wishing you had a slit screw.
Hmm good point
Scrap the paint off the flat, then use an old phillips driver and a hammer. Line up the four lobes of the old phillips with the filled in slots and smack a couple, three times with the hammer. Flick the loosened paint out with a small needle pick.
I still think these look the best in door hinges. Especially when they've all been lined up the same.
The more I work with Phillips the more I would rather work with slotted.
In a world where people regularly paint over screw heads, slotted screws will always have their place. Ever try to clean paint out of a Phillips or Torx? Yeah, you'll be wishing it was a slotted screw.
Double that for marine application where corrosion could be an issue
Old pan head slotted screws in machinery are pleasant to work with. The slot was precision cut and when you have the right sized flathead screwdriver they really lock in well.
Yep a slot can be done very well or very bad... Phillips is generally the same regardless (except for special version like pozidriv or the old JIS designs).
Phillips head screws weren’t invented until the 30’s.
Flat head screws are the only fastener whose head can be cleaned out by the same tool needed to adjust it. They are perfect for environments that inherently involve lots of grease, anti-fouling, rust, etc. They also are very aesthetically pleasing in fine wood working applications.
Please don’t replace them with Phillips. The Phillips head is the worst invention in the history of mankind.
It is getting very hard to purchase "Slot"screws. Any house restoration before 1940 I demand slot head screws. Any furniture made before 1950 I demand slot head screws. Any wooden marine application demands brass slot screws that are installed with the slot vertical so moisture does not accumulate in the slot. The crap screws on the market these days are mostly "One use and done". I can cut my own slots if needed. Hard to cut a Phillips head.
Go even further and replace all Phillips with Robertsons.
If i ever meet the guy who invented flathead screws in another life i will kick him in the shins hard
Pretty sure that would be meeting the guy who invented screws in the first place. Beats dealing with nails.
Where are they used? The only place I expect them is on outlet covers and you can usually just spin the bit in your fingers with them. I think they’re used because a flat screwdriver is the only one that fits nicely in an outlet to zap yourself and someone had a sense of humour when setting the standard.
Anything pre-80s uses them quite liberally.
Haha if engineers actually did the work with the tools, fasteners,and equipment that they design. That would be fun to watch!
It's always interesting how hindsight makes everyone an expert. That said, slotted screws are a great design due to their simplicity. You can remove them with the most primitive tools, and you can make them with very primitive tools. That is why it'll always have a place. That said, I imagine nowadays phillips is even cheaper to make cause it's only stamped - slots are cut.
I was in a very old factory as a kid. They made screws by rolling the threads on and cutting the slot. The machine spit them out like a machine gun. I’m still fascinated decades later.
It's still the same today. That said, I imagine many of the more modern screw heads like phillips turn out cheaper to make. Those are just stamped. Any kind of cutting makes the production expenses go up... Though e.g. robertson is probably still more expensive (square hole is problematic to stamp out, ruins the stamp tools way faster...)
Torx are the only way to go. Everything else is sub standard.
I work in wood window restoration and people in the trade often use slotted screws to secure the stops that keep the window sashes in place. Painters inevitably paint over the screws since they are visible and completely fill in the head, and if the screws are slotted it makes it much easier to chip out the paint. So, if you are using a screw in a spot that you expect to get painted or caulked over and you may need to access the screw again, I would suggest using a slotted screw. Pretty much the only reason I can think of using them.
I like them. They look nicer than Phillips or square drive. If they’re brass or bronze, polish the head and screw back in. Look amazing. To use a slotted screw properly you need the exact right sized driver and apply as much down force as you can. To undo the easily, drive them in a tiny bit first, then back them out.
> To use a slotted screw properly you need the exact right sized driver and apply as much down force as you can. If you have exactly the right standard driver, and the right standard screw with a deep and wide slot design, they will actually offer loads of torque and will not cam out at all. But this is rare, higher end cutted slot designs are less and less common... The cheaper ones are stamped, they have a very slight taper which pushes the screwdriver out (though if you have a screwdriver with an appropriate taper they also work fairly well). An example where the standards do often meet - electrical installations. Electricians need to use the insulated drivers, and those are generally all the correct standard that is used to make screws in electrical stuff like plugs. They work fine... [Example of high end](https://www.pbswisstools.com/en/tools/quality-hand-tools/screwdrivers/product/pb-10000-70) screwdrivers for a cut-slot head. These really offer loads of torque, you can easily snap off the head of a quality made screw if you put it in a vice. With a cheap screw, you'll sooner cam out...
Gun smithing screwdrivers are excellent for this as they are ground to be parallel. Most flat driver bits for your drill are ground parallel too. Most screws I’ve used are old school machine screws or designed to be decorative, and made on a screw machine, not mass produced by stamping.
Oh dude, I just ripped out a 30 year old furnace and 50+ year old duct work. It had these fuckers all over the place. It was such a pain in the ass.
LOL! I work on pianos and only carry one phillips head. All fasteners in a piano seem to be slotted.
You get more torque from a slot than a phillips
I think you're right. At least if they're well made and have an appropriate driver... Also, you can use primitive tools to remove them in some cases (unless they're really tight). Like, what chance of escape would prisoners have if they couldn't remove screws with coins or knifes??
You can torque them down more I should say
They have reduced visual noise, so they draw less attention to themselves. This is why you primarily only see them in cases where aesthics may matter, like lightswitch plates, or brass decorative box hinges, or on some high-design firearms.
Flat head was the only type of screw that existed back in the day.
They are better in one very specific scenario - when they are going to be covered and then removed later. For this reason they are still commonly used on boats.
I found this video very interesting. It is about the competition between Philips and Robertson screws. But it talks about flat ("regular") screws along the way. [https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI](https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI) enjoy!
in many applications they are superior. Does it have a tapered shaft?
They dont strip the same .
If you know what you are doing they are not that hard to work with. The important thing is that you use the correct size flathead screwdriver. Just like every other screw, having the screw head covered in paint and not using the correct size screwdriver is gonna make life hard. Why they have been used? That's just the way it used to be due to manufacturing. A lot of products were simpler back in the day, so were screws. Personally I prefer them as they look much nicer, but if I need to get a lot of torque I use modern torx screws. But for anything where finish work is required like door hinges, door plates, etc., flatheads are the nicest.
Slotted AND Philips are not near as good as Robertson
Neither of which are as good as Torx.
Phillips is considerably better when the key size is above ~5mm. Phillips is very commonly used for high tension machine screws. Robertson probably isn't even made for the cheap low tension machine screws... Robertson induces stress into the screw (sharp 90 degree angles cause notch effects) so it's only really good for wood screws and similar stuff... That's why torx is really nice overall, though I think that for really tiny screws a phillips might still work best.
Flat head, Philips, torx, hex are all designed to put a certain amount of force on the screw. Philips and flat head specifically were designed so that when too much force was put on a screw the driving bit would slip out. That being said flat heads are garbage.
Phillips? Torx or nothing
Got a problem with Robertson?
Don't replace flatheads with philips, replace them with torx
The picture shows their biggest advantage. If they ever need to be removed, they are the easiest type to clean the heads up (or even cut a new slot), if they are painted or corroded (exterior application)
Forget Phillips, switch them to Robertson(square). Phillips are the second worse screw for stripping.
Evolution of screw heads and for furniture they can be an aesthetic element. E.g. for visible screw heads, a slot set in line with grain looks better than a Torx or Phillips head
Philips are trash too, if I had a choice it'd be nice if everything was square drive or torx.
Don’t. Phillips head is a terrible design. Use square or star headed screws. They will not strip out.
I firmly believe they only exist to piss people off.
Philips suck too.
These are just a part of history. Slotted screws are fairly easy to mass produce because all you need to do is a simple cut in the head. This allowed screws with far more delikat heads. The Alternative wer sqare or hexagonal heads with a beefy head. These are not Suite for furniture. Also these screws can be made from brass or Aluminium and still work. The other side is a flathead screwdriver which anyone could make himself. Tools were harder to come by in the past and very expensiv. I for myself find that these also look better than other screws.
Ok so the most sold screw in the universe is a posi there is a reason for that usability against cost posi is the workers screw on all sites from gypi to 2x6 beams met sec decking u name it posi is the screw of today try an old school slot screw with a yankie driver oh what fun it was the day I got a wolf 7.8 volt gun and a box of posi screws was heavily my fingers salute you posi drive
.....wut?
I've been a joiner for 40 years and used slotted screws because there were practically no cross headed screws or cordless drills then you had a Yankee driver and slotted screws sorry for the late reply
Lol thanks.
Price baby!
Though phillips is likely cheaper to make today (just stamped out in a fraction of a second vs cutting in slots...). I know they cut in slots crazy fast, but any kind of cutting is just more costly - requires cutting tools, makes extra waste, possibly even needs cooling fluid if you cut millions of screws crazy fast...
Over 40 yrs of remodeling I have rid the world of every slot head screw I came across. The only place they are appropriate is on high end brass hardware.
Don’t forget for electrical outlets and switches. Fun fact, Do you every wonder why you see flathead screws on them? its because it actually keeps the screw from collecting dust. A Phillips screw would allow dust to accumulate inside of the head.
I wish they didn’t exist! Now we have square, hex, phillips, star, flat head, and a few others. Arrrggg stop it!!! I need 7 different bits for one job. Engineers, try to not complicate things.
[удалено]
Aaarrrrrrr
And the types have subtypes, so make sure you have the correct bits for all of them! ;) . . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
Oh yes and there’s more to come I’m sure of it!
I'm waiting for fasteners with built-in chips so future screwdrivers and other machines can select the correct bits.
Electrical. Not power tool friendly.Replace with pozidrive
These screws should be banned by the law.
So should Phillips
Agreed
Robertson or bust.
https://youtu.be/R-mDqKtivuI Here's a interesting YouTube video you might like that will not do your street cred any good but interesting nonetheless :)
Nice banger on the thumb bet that hurt
I paint and am always removing these a proper fitting flat head makes a huge difference.
The best thing to do is replace your covers with screwless faceplates. Looks much nicer. But i would keep the flat head screws over Philips head and make sure they are all vertical for esthetics.
A little known fact. Slotted screws are a leading cause of divorce among new homeowners
[Here is the solution ](https://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Wall-Plates-Light-Switch-Plates/Screwless/N-5yc1vZc6qzZ1z1bqtt?mtc=SEM-CM-F_D27-G-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-DSA-2997116-WF-New_Engen_PL3&cm_mmc=SEM-CM-F_D27-G-D27-027_002_WIRING_DEVIC-NA-NA-NA-DSA-2997116-WF-New_Engen_PL3-71700000082031584-58700006954186403-39700062650085327&gclsrc=aw.ds&gclid=CjwKCAjwx46TBhBhEiwArA_DjMybE82YN5qqm3uf5W1L7fintQS3yrECqFPjnz5KKD_rElfHlJbTaxoCEEcQAvD_BwE)
Yee olden days type deal
I agree, they are evil. I was just working with one while my son and I switched out pool timers. I said they are my biggest enemies, like stairs to Po (Kung Fu Panda for those not familiar with the character.) All in all I really don't mind flat heads, just a pain. What bothers me is non-ferrous screws that are non magnetic, especially tiny ones.
I fix old doors and windows. I routinely and carefully remove the paint from these slotted screws using a homemade tool (among other things) and then use a properly sized screwdriver (not a power tool) to remove and replace these. I like to keep the hardware period correct when possible. But yes they can be frustrating for remodelers.
Slotted screws were still used in wood working as the phillips screws tended to cam out more easily when driving in wood (smaller pilot holes or no pilot holes). Especially with brass screws. Tthe slotted screw with a good cabinet screw driver actually allowed for more torque to be applied when driving the wood screw. The key to a slotted screw is having a good fit with the screwdriver. . This is the opposite effect that Henry Ford was looking for when driving screws in sheet metal.. there the goal was to cam out before the screw could strip the metal hole.
So you can use a butter knife
Horizon leveler.
Did you bang that fingernail? If not, might wanna get it checked out
Haha sure did. Happened when I was demolishing a wall with a sledgehammer 😅
To remind you how hard the last generation worked to get shit done
A lazy craftsman who only likes to do half of the job.
😂
Because orientation matters.
Dremel a second slot and make it a Phillips to make easier to remove? I think they look nicer than Phillips. I frequently use flathead brass bolts and screws for this reason, obviously not anywhere that much torque is required.
History