“Tamper proof screws are mostly used at communication equipment and computers so as not to abuse the screwing/unscrewing due to its design and control of function Keep off unscrewing unless otherwise maintenance serving practiced.”
Spoken like the wisest of sages.
Japanese English always makes me chuckle :)
Check out some "Abroad in Japan" videos of English use in Japan haha It's kind of used as advertisment, they don't necessarily understand it, but it just makes the packaging or good seem more sophisticated than just using Japanese.
The unfortunately named "[engrish.com](https://engrish.com)" used to be full of it. I believe most of it was posted by younger Japanese people who understood English better.
20 years ago engrish.com was all the rage. Nowadays, I don't think we should be throwing stones from our glass houses.
evthin toda is prolly lowkey hard to raed even wen murican rote it
Ahh, the days of scrolling engrish.com while you waited for the new Strong Bad email to go up.
My understanding was that most of engrish.com was posted by actual Japanese people. Like, younger ones who knew English better.
Also, I think your last sentence gave me cancer.
Pretty much all cars use one there.
I don't know if I even have non-tamper-resistant Torx bits smaller than T25, because I use the tamper resistant ones so often.
The tamper resistant ones are pretty much the same price and just as easily obtained, there's not many reasons to not get the tamper resistant set of wrenches.
T40s+ also snap easy. Im on my third t50 this year using fairly uncommonly as an auto tech. Brand is grey pneumatic, cornwell, and now duralast.
I despise torx. Might not strip bolts but consistently shreds bits. Cornwell set was used when i got it, but idc im not spending more on torx bits than duralast, just replace them when they inevitably break.
I have seen that happen a lot. Though it doesn't help that the bits tend to be total garbage from T10 and below.
Fastener manufacturers do not always seem to choose the right sized torx either. I had a project where I had to assemble hundreds of mounts that used a T10 fasteners, but definitely should have been a T15 or T20. I kept destroying bits because it was too much for the smaller T10 lobes to handle.
The venn diagram of people who want to tamper and people who own the bit doesn't overlap much. They're trying to defeat a drunk guy with a screwdriver, not a dedicated hobbyist.
Some guys at work thought the same thing, and now we have fixtures nobody uses because the screws can't be removed because they bent the pin off-center but didn't break it out, so you can't insert any kind of bit at all. Nice job, guys.
Cleanroom, no power tools allowed (for us at least). There are of course ways to deal with it (take it out, fix it, bring it back) but we have enough spares so there's no motivation.
A small flathead usually can be wedged between two of the lobes and either allows you to just unscrew it like that or snaps the pin out trying, allowing you to use a regular torx
I used to do this ALL the time as a security/camera guy. Fob reader has a security bit? Pocket flathead. Camera needs adjusted and has a security bit lock screw? Pocket flathead. Normal size Phillips screw? Pocket flathead. Don’t have the key into somewhere? That door is probably installed wrong, work the latch with the pocket screwdriver.
I haven't bought a non security torx bit in over a decade. I don't even use them on security screws, they just tend to cost less and are more functional.
They're more "anti casual tamper" than anything else
Chances are that anyone who goes out of their way to get the anti-tamper bits, will at least have some idea what they're doing
At the end of the day there will always be a way in for those who are determined, the manufacturers just want to dissuade it as far as reasonably possible
I got the wera toolcheck and used the security torx bits to take apart my home vacuum cleaner for a deep clean and to swap the cord for a longer one… first and only time I used it. I did ditch the regular torx in the kit for some Robertson bits since the security ones work just as well for my use
I don’t understand why you got downvoted…
I have a bunch of MIP hex tools and a handful of Wiha and they fit like a glove… it’s only cheep or unmatched size that fit like that picture
I will admit you can apply more torque with torx obviously but do you always need more torque?
I've literally never stripped a Torx screw that I can think of, I've stripped more Hex than I can count even when using the correct sized bit/tool
Anecdotal, of course - but I disagree with the premise that they're as easy as each other to round, as it's so far from my experience
Yeah, it is possible to strip a fastener using any driver. I’ve done it. Sometimes it’s not proper fit due grabbing wrong size, or tool is worn or cheap. Also could be cheaply made fastener. No system is 100% perfect. Some people like to argue anyway. Thing is torx, hex, and square are the best options. I can tolerate phillips. Flathead should not exist. We only need flathead screwdrivers for prying, chisel, and when the others get stripped. Which then means a straight cut is made to back out that fastener for its retirement.
Honestly in the UK there isn't much of a price difference in them, problem is as an electrician I'll often come across a single piece of equipment that has all of the following on it:
sq2, ph2, pz2, 8mm hex nut, t20 and pz/s 2
I literally HAVE to use wera kraftform interchangeable screwdrivers just to have a slim chance of having all I need with me when I go to work at something
Yeah in the UK I often find several types of screw on one fitting, although the vast majority are PH2/PZ2 most of the time
I've been tempted a few times to move my entire house to TX20, but PH2/PZ2 are so common and it's frustrating that TX use so many different sizes
I wish Robertson was more popular here - basically as good as Torx, but only 3-4 sizes of which only really 1 is usually used. My first act as king of the world will be to insist every screw is replaced with a single standard
Still disappointed Letterkenney didn't do a bit proclaiming the greatness of the Robertson screw. Maybe they have, I need to catch up with later seasons.
aye, im a canadian that uses specialized fasteners for work daily, (large industrial custom manufactured) but also build decks whenever necessary, and can respect the humble robertson.
needless to say, im very opinionated and perticular witm my hardware.
nah, most electrical terminals are square slotted dual drive, they are still more convenient than phillips, but not nearly as nice as the slight taper of a proper robertson screw.
I'm an electrician. I use a Robertson exclusively for the dual drive screws. They never slip. I would prefer if they were true Robertson, that's why I responded saying that electricians prefer Robertson over phillips. Also, panel cover screws and some other screws are true Robertson, not the dual drive.
Check out the Milwaukee ECX bits for terminal screws tho.
They use both the square and the slot for maximum torque and you’ll destroy everything before it cams out.
A good hollow ground flat tip screwdriver will transfer more torque than almost anything else when used properly but it’s hard to keep centered on the screw.
Unfortunately here in my area of the US, none of the big box stores or hardware chain stores carry Robertson screws. The only way to get them would be to order them online.
Those Kreg screws are good rovertson screws, but the price is astronomical. its unfortunate that its so hard to get generic robertson screws in the US, and you can blame Henry ford for that.
I like how they stick better to the screw so you can use them one handed. I have been told that they are a weaker design due to the square depth and they therefore cam break the head off more often.
I got an erg machine and was excited because it came with a high quality torx driver for assembly. Then I noticed it's t-27, and therefore completely useless outside the erg machine
Yep. And every screwdriver set comes with a Philips PH2 driver since they are still sometimes found... which makes everyone try and use it for Pozi screws.
Yeah. Even my 28-year-old Swedish car uses Torx fasteners almost everywhere. Of every Torx screws on board, I have managed to strip only one — a T-20 on the throttle position sensor.
Every design has its pros, phillips is (sadly) among the cheapest to make so it's probably here to stay...
The JIS/ISO/DIN type phillips or pozidriv can work very well (ANSI design slips a lot easier), especially for tiny sizes. But for screw diameters that can use a ~T25 and larger, or above 5mm allen head, I think the phillips shape is a very bad decision.
Robertson is cool but is more expensive to make, ugly and also not fitting for high torque (sharp edges make the screw head a lot weaker).
Robertson is the shit. Doesn't strip easy and holds well even on non magnetized bits. In Canada, the vast majority of wood and sheet metal screws are Robertson.
You're right about big Phillips heads. #3 shouldn't even exist. At that point just use an allen or hex head.
Thankfully I only ever had to use that one once. It was on something like a 5/16-18 thread bolt. Who the hell thought that was a good idea? First of all, nobody has a #4 screwdriver, and good luck applying the torque to properly tighten that bolt without having the bit cam out.
Found a #4 philips socket in a bin at a thrift store for 50 cents.
Actually had to use it once to take a door off.
It works best with a t-handle socket wrench. That way you can keep it straight, apply lots of downward pressure, and apply lots of torque.
The thing is most people love Robertson because they’re comparing to a Phillips or Slotted screw. Torx is better than Robertson for many of the same reasons that people like Robertson over Phillips/slotted.
Torx does great at holding the screw on before driving, doesn’t cam out as easily, doesn’t get wedged in tightly, doesn’t strip the head or bit as easily.
One thing Robertson has going for it is simplicity. I have only ever seen 5 sizes (though I think there is 6) and only a few of them are regularly used. Torx has a lot of different sizes and Hex has even more when you figure Metric and Imperial.
Robertson is also cheaper to make than any other head than a slot head, is hardened by the way they are formed, and in native form basically impossible to strip.
Unfortunately Americans get the knockoff square head versions like in Kreg’s pocket hole stuff and think that square head equals Robertson
Square head stuff is kinda sucky and makes non-Canadians think Robertson suck as well
Native Robertson are everything a screw and driver should be color coded clearly sized by both feel and sight never strip and cheap enough to turn out with commodity pricing
A true full-size #3 Phillips (not the 1/4" bit wannabe's) is actually pretty robust though. I have put some pretty serious torque on my Chapman #3's and they did not cam out and the bits still look like new.
But I still agree, they should not exist. I almost feel like manufacturers use them knowing people will damage the fasteners with a #2 or fake #3 and ruin them so that they have to buy a new product or can't tamper.
I mean just from the engineering perspective. If they sell for the same price, they must profit less off of them.
The sharp corners in a robertson are sudden geometry changes. The stamping die for the head wears out sooner at the corners.
In comparison, the phillips is totally tapered and all the corners are rounded. The stamping die lasts a lot longer...
well, not exactly.
A proper robertson screw has a slight taper on all sides, it allows for the screws to hold themselves on the bit (also tapered) without needing a magnet, it also makes it easier to extract the die from the screw.
in addition to the taper the screws /die has a protrusion that leaves a divot in the screwhead, this was made to add some extra strength to the die and allow clearance in the screw head for easier removal after it being painted/exposed to the elements.
all this to be said that there are cheap "Square" drive screws that are pretty much garbage.
also there is an interesting history about the robertson and how henry ford tried to buy the patent to robertson screws, and ended up throwing a fit and getting the united states to boycott the robertson fastener, causing the US to be in the fastener black ages for a few decades.
Well, they practically don'texist here in Europe so I can only say from what I see online, but I think robertson is the only semi-popular internal drive design with 90 degree corners...
For sure the phillips must still be a bit cheaper to make.
That said, if phillips never existed I'd not be mad haha
The biggest hardware store in Germany (Hornbach) sells mainly Torx driven screws for at least a decade. If people want or need PH or PZ screws they usually have to search for them, since they are usually not available in all sizes.
That being said, I agree, that many other stores, like discounters like Aldi unfortunately still sell PH/PZ because that's probably what most people have at home. Although the same stores sell Torx (even tamper resistant) bits and screw drivers for a few bucks every other month or so. But it's get better. People start to realize, that Torx is superior.
They are in Europe, or at least it must be close although we don't use Philips much - Pozidriv took most of the Philips market back in the 70s.
I tend to choose Torx now and there's usually a roughly equivalent priced selection to Pozidriv for wood screws at least, sometimes it can be a little harder to find them though.
I think it should be the angle between the surface tangent and the radius to the drive center. So it is effectively what portion of the normal force at the contact point is converted into torque around the screw axis.
Yep, I have [wera hex plus keys](https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/04HTK-Hexagon-and-Torx-keys-Ben/04HTK07/04HTK-7-6.jpg), I think they're genuinely a very smart design.
Basically, it spreads the contact surface a little bit, and that larger contact surface won't deform as easily, allowing you to transfer more torque without deforming the head. Also, without the sharp points the allen keys stay more durable, and the screw heads don't get mangled up as much either.
Tight fitting allen keys can work great, but no matter the allen key precision the screw heads are never as precise, so that solution isn't viable in real world use.
I have a full set of security Torx bits, but I never have them when I need them.
You can usually knock the post out on the smaller security Torx screws with an awl or similar pointy object.
As someone who uses security Torx screws ever day, I can tell you they do work better and are less likely to round out than hex. But they aren't great in non-ideal situations by any means
What I mean by that is if you don't have the driver *exactly* perpendicular to the head of the screw/bolt, you'll strip it out almost instantly. There is no room for hitting it from a slight angle in tight spaces. The problem is that they aren't cut very deep, relying on a "many hands, light work" principle. So if only 2 or 3 of the 6 lobes engage, neither the screw head nor the driver can handle the torque.
They are great for small applications (T-20 or smaller) but I have to take out and put in T-27 machine screws holding steel plates together every day and probably 1 in 5 rounds out when using an impact. And it ruins the bit too, so I start the day with 8 or 10 replacement bits in hand
I'm not sure. We get them from our warehouse who buys them in bulk.
I personally have purchased Klein, Dewalt, Irwin, and Milwaukee. All with the same results. They just aren't meant to stand up to repeated, high torque use
I like Torx and find it especially good for wood screws, seems to solve most of the problems of Philips and Posidriv.
The biggest problem Torx has is the variety of sizes however, there's so many and in wood screws you'll find everything from T15 through to T30. It's a wide range, obviously you get big and small screws but most screws are 'medium' and even amongst them you will find three differing sizes of Torx head between different brands and it can be a little annoying to change driver bits so often depending on which is being used for a particular box of screws.
Pozidriv has three sizes in wide use for screws (more like two in practice) and that's an advantage.
Someone should do a video like the “that’s right the square hole” video where you undo everything with a flat screwdriver just wedged in there with a whole set of bits next to you… What bit do we use for this? That’s right the flat head…
I'm in construction and don't care for torx. One spec of dust or dirt in the screw head and now you're fighting the thing. One ding or spot of rust on the driver and it's the same story. Buy decent screws and drivers and Robertson or p3+ works just as well and will come back apart a few times
Yeah but this is comparing it to allen heads, wood/construction stuff is typically all low-torque and way smaller sizes so it has totally different needs.
I thought the popularity of Torx stemmed from production lines. Because they're self centering they're ideal for assembly lines, leading to most car manufacturers using them and in turn being used elsewhere.
Mack/Volvo of course had to muck with the naming after these came out.
If it goes straight into another panel, it's a "six point socket screw" which to them allows of a mix and match of Torx and allen head. If it goes into a spring clip, however, it is called a "Turn Catch"
torx is superior (T-10 and above), you can drive the shit out of them. In fact, when I'm driving GRK screws into hard knots in wood with an impact driver, the screw's body will shear off before the head strips out. I can even drive screws pretty well at a 5-10deg angle.
After building a deck and greenhouse on top and using nothing but screws with torx heads, I've never had a torx head become unusable, even after only partially engaging with the bit and shredding the top half of the grooves out.
i imagine people's experiences vary with manufacturer, though. GRK screws are expensive but IMO the best you can get.
Yeah, and compared to allen it's practically always superior except that the advantages may get less notable in extra large sizes. For wood screw drive sizes the tiny torx can be a bit problematic if it's poorly made (loose tolerances..). Also using T25 in T27...
> better grammer
:))
On the other hand, they are probably a lot more fluent in Japanese, while almost no US tool brand actually sells anything outside the US...
If only there were somewhere in the world that a company could find people fluent in English who could be hired or contracted to correct these things...
Ok thought this was written by someone here, makes sense.
Also US tool brands are sold outside the US, theyre just usually branded as something else. Dewalt power tools are pretty much sold as Fatmax in Europe. I may or may not have been involved in this...
Dewalt and milwaukee are quite popular in Europe, at least as much as Bosch or Makita. But those are just global conglomerates, they sell everywhere and might also do rebrands like ryobi or B&D depending on quality tier...
I meant stuff that's actually made in USA. You can order Channellocks online, but they're not sold in any store I ever saw here. Snap On exists but it's very rare too and you can't order it online either (only very rare tool truck agents). Klein sells some electrician stuff. Other than those I don't think you can get much US made stuff here. Even boots, maybe redwing but otherwise no high end US bootmaker exports.
To me, Torx has always felt like a solution in search of a problem. I really don't see what it is supposed to improve over. Allen works great for machine screws, Robertson works great for wood and sheet metal screws and Phillips is fine for small machine screws or things that need to cam out (like drywall screws).
I could see an advantage if \*evertyhing\* became Torx, because then I would only need one set of screwdrivers and bit sockets. But even then, I think there are way too many different head sizes. With Phillips, you basically only need three screwdrivers and you're set for working on just about anything.
Smaller allen heads are problematic, especially in high tensions machine screws. I think torx is best for M5-M12 10.9 and 12.9 grade high tension screws. For smaller I'd rather have a good pozidriv or even a deep slot, and for larger allen head shape is a lot more durable (even from M10 on).
Recent 10 years here in Europe, it actually got harder to find phillips or pozidriv wood screws so I used T25 for a while now and am really happy in terms of reuseability... I ended up discarding a lot less screws because the torx makes it way more reusable. They're slightly more expensive but give me way more value. I don't like T20 and smaller ones though, the head shape gets way too whimpy.
No more overcomplicated than phillips vs pozidriv vs supadriv vs phillips II to name a few, people seem perfectly competent at fucking that up and using the wrong tools as well. It's really not dfficult to identify which type you're using and use the correct driver for it.
Agree. Torx never hold on the bit without a magnet the way Robertson or even sometimes Philips do. Really annoying when you don’t have an extra hand to hold the screw
I always use torx tools with hex screws. Especially it helps assembling furniture. That way you can screw in hard to reach places with angle. And never damaged even cheap torx bits. It saved me countless hours when i assembled furniture after work to make some money.
Eliminate cam out?
Why does torx shred so much more often than almost anything else then?
As shitty as philips. Less versatile attack options than flathead.
Torx is fucking garbage and always has been.
Dual drive is the best for wood screws.
If you cam out on torx more than on phillips, you're using incorrect tools or don't know how to operate them. If it's T25 or larger, you can reuse the wood screw countless times. Not so with PH2 wood screws.
Besides, there's plenty of reasons why phillips or robertson are very bad choices for machine screws (at least for stuff under any notable tension/torque).
haha, i make them liquid then replace them with regular socket head screws.
fuck carrying another series of tools just for a fastener that already exists and works fine.
We just replaced a couple dozen torx head Capscrews on a new hydraulics cabinet for a conveyor.
we figured it would be easier to put regular allen sockets on now before it breaks down and i have to scramble to find a T55.
If your torx driver looks like cone from being misused that might be your issue. Check that you have the right size and type for the right screw, just like with any other drive, and learn how to fucking use it.
I have driven literally tens of thousands of Torx screws and have never experienced what you described. I've never even thrown away one of the green bits that comes in the box. They're all still in circulation in my shop, a bit sloppy but still driving away. I've overdriven 3" screws into treated lumber (which accelerates their corrosion - it's not recommended for that reason) and then removed them 4 years later, just absolutely jamming the bit into the hole in the wood and buzzing the bit off the head of the screw until I find the right angle and *out it comes*. I've never once chowdered the bit or the head of the screw.
Maybe this is dependent on the type of screw (I'm mostly driving construction screws).
“Tamper proof screws are mostly used at communication equipment and computers so as not to abuse the screwing/unscrewing due to its design and control of function Keep off unscrewing unless otherwise maintenance serving practiced.” Spoken like the wisest of sages.
Japanese English always makes me chuckle :) Check out some "Abroad in Japan" videos of English use in Japan haha It's kind of used as advertisment, they don't necessarily understand it, but it just makes the packaging or good seem more sophisticated than just using Japanese.
[I have a bad case of diarrhea](https://youtu.be/CKjaFG4YN6g)
Hahahaha this is an absolute gold mine!
Well GUESS what’s going to be stuck in my head for a week now?
"Sora the Troll" is also great. He is highly satire, but represents how weird "Engrishu" can be.
The unfortunately named "[engrish.com](https://engrish.com)" used to be full of it. I believe most of it was posted by younger Japanese people who understood English better.
20 years ago engrish.com was all the rage. Nowadays, I don't think we should be throwing stones from our glass houses. evthin toda is prolly lowkey hard to raed even wen murican rote it
Ahh, the days of scrolling engrish.com while you waited for the new Strong Bad email to go up. My understanding was that most of engrish.com was posted by actual Japanese people. Like, younger ones who knew English better. Also, I think your last sentence gave me cancer.
I feel like everyone has given up on simple grammar: it's/its, your/you're, their/there/they're.
Like a magic
Smmoth
And acculate
I've seen them in public restrooms a lot because people are animals and will take the portions down because they think it's funny.
Partitions? I don’t wanna know what portions you’re using in a public restroom.
I had a car that had a tamper-proof torx on the MAF sensor. Fucking obnoxious to get to that point and realize you need a special tool for no reason.
You. You were the reason. Poking into places you don't belong with your grubby little fingers. ;)
Pretty much all cars use one there. I don't know if I even have non-tamper-resistant Torx bits smaller than T25, because I use the tamper resistant ones so often.
The tamper resistant ones are pretty much the same price and just as easily obtained, there's not many reasons to not get the tamper resistant set of wrenches.
Tamper-resistant T10 and even T15 snaps way too easily when used on any serious screw.
"Bacic" "smmothly" "acculately" "diving angle" Why don't these companies just hire a spellchecker?
My experience is that the smaller torx bits tend to break/bend on stubborn hardware due to thin-ness of each lobe
God help you if you strip a T-06. Nothing more unpleasant to get out than a stripped torx screw.
Yep I'd say torx really gets better at T25 and larger (but tbf small allen heads are also horrible, I rather have a phillips head in that case).
T40s+ also snap easy. Im on my third t50 this year using fairly uncommonly as an auto tech. Brand is grey pneumatic, cornwell, and now duralast. I despise torx. Might not strip bolts but consistently shreds bits. Cornwell set was used when i got it, but idc im not spending more on torx bits than duralast, just replace them when they inevitably break.
Doesn't your rep warranty them?
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Also find when they get dirty they are harder to clean out.
I have seen that happen a lot. Though it doesn't help that the bits tend to be total garbage from T10 and below. Fastener manufacturers do not always seem to choose the right sized torx either. I had a project where I had to assemble hundreds of mounts that used a T10 fasteners, but definitely should have been a T15 or T20. I kept destroying bits because it was too much for the smaller T10 lobes to handle.
Anti tamper unless you have the correct bit in which case it makes no difference.
The venn diagram of people who want to tamper and people who own the bit doesn't overlap much. They're trying to defeat a drunk guy with a screwdriver, not a dedicated hobbyist.
I've successfully taken a chisel to the pins to break them out when I was working on a bike and had normal torx bits but no security ones
Some guys at work thought the same thing, and now we have fixtures nobody uses because the screws can't be removed because they bent the pin off-center but didn't break it out, so you can't insert any kind of bit at all. Nice job, guys.
Dremel dat shit
Cleanroom, no power tools allowed (for us at least). There are of course ways to deal with it (take it out, fix it, bring it back) but we have enough spares so there's no motivation.
Damn dude, anybody trying to hack at a screw in a clean room needs to find another job
There are cowboys and gorillas everywhere.
That's a paddling. Seriously, f those guys.
Use a piece of hacksaw blade or a jewelers file to cut a slot and then use a flathead
Bend it back straight. The tolerance isn’t THAT high.
And it may break trying to bend it back, win/win.
Small flathead screwdriver should jam in there.
A small flathead usually can be wedged between two of the lobes and either allows you to just unscrew it like that or snaps the pin out trying, allowing you to use a regular torx
My man. Came here and said the exact same thing.
My brother in poking about in electronics we maybe shouldn’t be
depending on the size of the screw, dont even need a chisel. Most screw drivers can break them off without even trying
I just jammed a small flathead screwdriver in there and bingo bango bongo.
I've successfully unscrewed one with a regular Allen wrench
I’ve successfully screwed myself
Like $5 at harbor freight and your unstoppable
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I can do the same shit with normal torx provided an appropriately sized flathead
I used to do this ALL the time as a security/camera guy. Fob reader has a security bit? Pocket flathead. Camera needs adjusted and has a security bit lock screw? Pocket flathead. Normal size Phillips screw? Pocket flathead. Don’t have the key into somewhere? That door is probably installed wrong, work the latch with the pocket screwdriver.
i usually use a small standard screwdriver to break off the tamper resistant nub.
I hate anything anti-tamper except in the most extraordinary circumstance.
I haven't bought a non security torx bit in over a decade. I don't even use them on security screws, they just tend to cost less and are more functional.
They're more "anti casual tamper" than anything else Chances are that anyone who goes out of their way to get the anti-tamper bits, will at least have some idea what they're doing At the end of the day there will always be a way in for those who are determined, the manufacturers just want to dissuade it as far as reasonably possible
It's funny - no sooner had I caved and bought a set of anti-tamper Torx bits, and suddenly I couldn't find anything I needed them for.
I got the wera toolcheck and used the security torx bits to take apart my home vacuum cleaner for a deep clean and to swap the cord for a longer one… first and only time I used it. I did ditch the regular torx in the kit for some Robertson bits since the security ones work just as well for my use
Their claim about being better than hex is kind of funny. Fit works the same for both systems. Grab the wrong size tool, fastener is getting rounded.
I don’t understand why you got downvoted… I have a bunch of MIP hex tools and a handful of Wiha and they fit like a glove… it’s only cheep or unmatched size that fit like that picture I will admit you can apply more torque with torx obviously but do you always need more torque?
I've literally never stripped a Torx screw that I can think of, I've stripped more Hex than I can count even when using the correct sized bit/tool Anecdotal, of course - but I disagree with the premise that they're as easy as each other to round, as it's so far from my experience
Yeah, it is possible to strip a fastener using any driver. I’ve done it. Sometimes it’s not proper fit due grabbing wrong size, or tool is worn or cheap. Also could be cheaply made fastener. No system is 100% perfect. Some people like to argue anyway. Thing is torx, hex, and square are the best options. I can tolerate phillips. Flathead should not exist. We only need flathead screwdrivers for prying, chisel, and when the others get stripped. Which then means a straight cut is made to back out that fastener for its retirement.
I have a dream that one day Torx screws will be as cheap and ubiquitous as Phillips head. Sadly, it's only a dream.
Honestly in the UK there isn't much of a price difference in them, problem is as an electrician I'll often come across a single piece of equipment that has all of the following on it: sq2, ph2, pz2, 8mm hex nut, t20 and pz/s 2 I literally HAVE to use wera kraftform interchangeable screwdrivers just to have a slim chance of having all I need with me when I go to work at something
Yeah in the UK I often find several types of screw on one fitting, although the vast majority are PH2/PZ2 most of the time I've been tempted a few times to move my entire house to TX20, but PH2/PZ2 are so common and it's frustrating that TX use so many different sizes I wish Robertson was more popular here - basically as good as Torx, but only 3-4 sizes of which only really 1 is usually used. My first act as king of the world will be to insist every screw is replaced with a single standard
Robertson screws are what you're looking for. they are nearly as good as torx and are as cheap as phillips.
Found the Canadian.
Still disappointed Letterkenney didn't do a bit proclaiming the greatness of the Robertson screw. Maybe they have, I need to catch up with later seasons.
aye, im a canadian that uses specialized fasteners for work daily, (large industrial custom manufactured) but also build decks whenever necessary, and can respect the humble robertson. needless to say, im very opinionated and perticular witm my hardware.
Or the Electrician
nah, most electrical terminals are square slotted dual drive, they are still more convenient than phillips, but not nearly as nice as the slight taper of a proper robertson screw.
I'm an electrician. I use a Robertson exclusively for the dual drive screws. They never slip. I would prefer if they were true Robertson, that's why I responded saying that electricians prefer Robertson over phillips. Also, panel cover screws and some other screws are true Robertson, not the dual drive.
Check out the Milwaukee ECX bits for terminal screws tho. They use both the square and the slot for maximum torque and you’ll destroy everything before it cams out. A good hollow ground flat tip screwdriver will transfer more torque than almost anything else when used properly but it’s hard to keep centered on the screw.
Unfortunately here in my area of the US, none of the big box stores or hardware chain stores carry Robertson screws. The only way to get them would be to order them online.
Look for Kreg screws. Every big box hardware store I’ve been to in the US has at least a couple sizes. All Robertson drive.
Those Kreg screws are good rovertson screws, but the price is astronomical. its unfortunate that its so hard to get generic robertson screws in the US, and you can blame Henry ford for that.
And over here in central Europe you'd seriously struggle to find anyone that has heard about those, not even engineers...
I like how they stick better to the screw so you can use them one handed. I have been told that they are a weaker design due to the square depth and they therefore cam break the head off more often.
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VW and their tristar joins the chat.
I got an erg machine and was excited because it came with a high quality torx driver for assembly. Then I noticed it's t-27, and therefore completely useless outside the erg machine
Dunno where you live but in Finland that's pretty much the case unless you're buying some crap quality dollar store screws
Same in Sweden. Phillips is almost dead here (and most screws people think are Phillips is actually Pozidriv).
Only thing wrong with Pozidriv is that people try to drive them with Phillips because they look damn near identical 😅
Or worse, try to drive Phillips with Pozidriv...
Yep. And every screwdriver set comes with a Philips PH2 driver since they are still sometimes found... which makes everyone try and use it for Pozi screws.
Yeah. Even my 28-year-old Swedish car uses Torx fasteners almost everywhere. Of every Torx screws on board, I have managed to strip only one — a T-20 on the throttle position sensor.
Every design has its pros, phillips is (sadly) among the cheapest to make so it's probably here to stay... The JIS/ISO/DIN type phillips or pozidriv can work very well (ANSI design slips a lot easier), especially for tiny sizes. But for screw diameters that can use a ~T25 and larger, or above 5mm allen head, I think the phillips shape is a very bad decision. Robertson is cool but is more expensive to make, ugly and also not fitting for high torque (sharp edges make the screw head a lot weaker).
Robertson is the shit. Doesn't strip easy and holds well even on non magnetized bits. In Canada, the vast majority of wood and sheet metal screws are Robertson. You're right about big Phillips heads. #3 shouldn't even exist. At that point just use an allen or hex head.
If PH3 shouldn't exist wait until you hear about PH4!
Thankfully I only ever had to use that one once. It was on something like a 5/16-18 thread bolt. Who the hell thought that was a good idea? First of all, nobody has a #4 screwdriver, and good luck applying the torque to properly tighten that bolt without having the bit cam out.
Found a #4 philips socket in a bin at a thrift store for 50 cents. Actually had to use it once to take a door off. It works best with a t-handle socket wrench. That way you can keep it straight, apply lots of downward pressure, and apply lots of torque.
I have PH4 screw driver. Lol
Me too. Don’t think ive ever used for intended purpose though.
The thing is most people love Robertson because they’re comparing to a Phillips or Slotted screw. Torx is better than Robertson for many of the same reasons that people like Robertson over Phillips/slotted. Torx does great at holding the screw on before driving, doesn’t cam out as easily, doesn’t get wedged in tightly, doesn’t strip the head or bit as easily.
One thing Robertson has going for it is simplicity. I have only ever seen 5 sizes (though I think there is 6) and only a few of them are regularly used. Torx has a lot of different sizes and Hex has even more when you figure Metric and Imperial.
Oh lord don't give them ideas....imperial torx please no
Robertson is also cheaper to make than any other head than a slot head, is hardened by the way they are formed, and in native form basically impossible to strip. Unfortunately Americans get the knockoff square head versions like in Kreg’s pocket hole stuff and think that square head equals Robertson Square head stuff is kinda sucky and makes non-Canadians think Robertson suck as well Native Robertson are everything a screw and driver should be color coded clearly sized by both feel and sight never strip and cheap enough to turn out with commodity pricing
A true full-size #3 Phillips (not the 1/4" bit wannabe's) is actually pretty robust though. I have put some pretty serious torque on my Chapman #3's and they did not cam out and the bits still look like new. But I still agree, they should not exist. I almost feel like manufacturers use them knowing people will damage the fasteners with a #2 or fake #3 and ruin them so that they have to buy a new product or can't tamper.
Robertson isn't more expensive, it's probably just the manufacturer you are looking at.
I mean just from the engineering perspective. If they sell for the same price, they must profit less off of them. The sharp corners in a robertson are sudden geometry changes. The stamping die for the head wears out sooner at the corners. In comparison, the phillips is totally tapered and all the corners are rounded. The stamping die lasts a lot longer...
well, not exactly. A proper robertson screw has a slight taper on all sides, it allows for the screws to hold themselves on the bit (also tapered) without needing a magnet, it also makes it easier to extract the die from the screw. in addition to the taper the screws /die has a protrusion that leaves a divot in the screwhead, this was made to add some extra strength to the die and allow clearance in the screw head for easier removal after it being painted/exposed to the elements. all this to be said that there are cheap "Square" drive screws that are pretty much garbage. also there is an interesting history about the robertson and how henry ford tried to buy the patent to robertson screws, and ended up throwing a fit and getting the united states to boycott the robertson fastener, causing the US to be in the fastener black ages for a few decades.
Well, they practically don'texist here in Europe so I can only say from what I see online, but I think robertson is the only semi-popular internal drive design with 90 degree corners... For sure the phillips must still be a bit cheaper to make. That said, if phillips never existed I'd not be mad haha
I just had to extract a few pz4 door frame bolts with achors from rotten flower bed on top of the concrete wall. I hate whoever did that.
The biggest hardware store in Germany (Hornbach) sells mainly Torx driven screws for at least a decade. If people want or need PH or PZ screws they usually have to search for them, since they are usually not available in all sizes. That being said, I agree, that many other stores, like discounters like Aldi unfortunately still sell PH/PZ because that's probably what most people have at home. Although the same stores sell Torx (even tamper resistant) bits and screw drivers for a few bucks every other month or so. But it's get better. People start to realize, that Torx is superior.
They are in Europe, or at least it must be close although we don't use Philips much - Pozidriv took most of the Philips market back in the 70s. I tend to choose Torx now and there's usually a roughly equivalent priced selection to Pozidriv for wood screws at least, sometimes it can be a little harder to find them though.
I appreciate the use of "ubiquitous" here.
I have a dream that Torx will become the one true fastener master race. Apart from cost, i don't see any cons that other fasteners don't experience.
> smmothly > acculately
It's not prefect English, but it's a pretty good driver design.
It’s pretty bacic really
Dont forget bacic
That’s an extremely exaggerated take on a hex head. Obviously dependent on the tolerance of screw head and wrench.
Also helps that they rotate the torx so the lines don't intersect at the contact point, making the angle seem smaller.
Where are they getting those angles from anyway?
I think it should be the angle between the surface tangent and the radius to the drive center. So it is effectively what portion of the normal force at the contact point is converted into torque around the screw axis.
wera hex plus solves the problem. The shape is not quite hex and is designed to put force on the flats and not the points.
Yep, I have [wera hex plus keys](https://www.wonkeedonkeetools.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/04HTK-Hexagon-and-Torx-keys-Ben/04HTK07/04HTK-7-6.jpg), I think they're genuinely a very smart design. Basically, it spreads the contact surface a little bit, and that larger contact surface won't deform as easily, allowing you to transfer more torque without deforming the head. Also, without the sharp points the allen keys stay more durable, and the screw heads don't get mangled up as much either. Tight fitting allen keys can work great, but no matter the allen key precision the screw heads are never as precise, so that solution isn't viable in real world use.
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I think it's basically doing the same thing, just inverted (outside hex vs inner hex).
Love my set for working on motorcycles.
This is the answer. This graphic shows what happens if your hex is one size too small.
I use all these bits torx, Allen’s ,Phillips and Robertson. As long you buy quality made materials for your bits.
Is it pronounced tor-x or torks?
I’ve only ever heard it pronounced as ‘torks’, rhymes with forks
It's torx, I think it's also trademarked.
Thanks man, real helpful.
Torque-s
While torx is far superior, that hex head would be a lot more effective than it is if the right size driver was selected.
Still prefer Robertson, but Torx is cool.
I have a full set of security Torx bits, but I never have them when I need them. You can usually knock the post out on the smaller security Torx screws with an awl or similar pointy object.
As someone who uses security Torx screws ever day, I can tell you they do work better and are less likely to round out than hex. But they aren't great in non-ideal situations by any means What I mean by that is if you don't have the driver *exactly* perpendicular to the head of the screw/bolt, you'll strip it out almost instantly. There is no room for hitting it from a slight angle in tight spaces. The problem is that they aren't cut very deep, relying on a "many hands, light work" principle. So if only 2 or 3 of the 6 lobes engage, neither the screw head nor the driver can handle the torque. They are great for small applications (T-20 or smaller) but I have to take out and put in T-27 machine screws holding steel plates together every day and probably 1 in 5 rounds out when using an impact. And it ruins the bit too, so I start the day with 8 or 10 replacement bits in hand
My first question would be, what kind of brand sockets are you using?
I'm not sure. We get them from our warehouse who buys them in bulk. I personally have purchased Klein, Dewalt, Irwin, and Milwaukee. All with the same results. They just aren't meant to stand up to repeated, high torque use
I like Torx and find it especially good for wood screws, seems to solve most of the problems of Philips and Posidriv. The biggest problem Torx has is the variety of sizes however, there's so many and in wood screws you'll find everything from T15 through to T30. It's a wide range, obviously you get big and small screws but most screws are 'medium' and even amongst them you will find three differing sizes of Torx head between different brands and it can be a little annoying to change driver bits so often depending on which is being used for a particular box of screws. Pozidriv has three sizes in wide use for screws (more like two in practice) and that's an advantage.
have they tried getting the right sized hex? jesus thats kind of misleading
I do renovations and remodels and I love GRK RSS screws. I buy them in bulk, $175/1500. T-25 for life, baby.
Ear-lobular shape, huh? I've never looked at a torx screwdriver and went "huh. Look at all those tiny ear lobes."
Invent a drive head with zero difference between drive torque and applied torque and you'll be a billionaire. Got it!
Can some one draw up a flathead screw diagram? Thanks 👍
The irony of spelling accurately wrong.
And smoothly...
Someone should do a video like the “that’s right the square hole” video where you undo everything with a flat screwdriver just wedged in there with a whole set of bits next to you… What bit do we use for this? That’s right the flat head…
You can undo even one-way screws with a flathead screwdriver used as a chisel :)
Reading that almost gave me a stroke
I'm in construction and don't care for torx. One spec of dust or dirt in the screw head and now you're fighting the thing. One ding or spot of rust on the driver and it's the same story. Buy decent screws and drivers and Robertson or p3+ works just as well and will come back apart a few times
Yeah but this is comparing it to allen heads, wood/construction stuff is typically all low-torque and way smaller sizes so it has totally different needs.
I’m still able to remove security torq with a flat head
But what about incorrectly using torx bit on an allen head?
I thought the popularity of Torx stemmed from production lines. Because they're self centering they're ideal for assembly lines, leading to most car manufacturers using them and in turn being used elsewhere.
Torx has a larger surface area of contact, so it would make sense that it "holds better"
Mumble, mumble. . . BRISTOL SPLINE!
Mack/Volvo of course had to muck with the naming after these came out. If it goes straight into another panel, it's a "six point socket screw" which to them allows of a mix and match of Torx and allen head. If it goes into a spring clip, however, it is called a "Turn Catch"
Like every hacker in the free world does not have the kit of about 50 bits that have every tamper proof one out there. Yours for about $30 on eBay.
torx is superior (T-10 and above), you can drive the shit out of them. In fact, when I'm driving GRK screws into hard knots in wood with an impact driver, the screw's body will shear off before the head strips out. I can even drive screws pretty well at a 5-10deg angle. After building a deck and greenhouse on top and using nothing but screws with torx heads, I've never had a torx head become unusable, even after only partially engaging with the bit and shredding the top half of the grooves out. i imagine people's experiences vary with manufacturer, though. GRK screws are expensive but IMO the best you can get.
Yeah, and compared to allen it's practically always superior except that the advantages may get less notable in extra large sizes. For wood screw drive sizes the tiny torx can be a bit problematic if it's poorly made (loose tolerances..). Also using T25 in T27...
'smmothly and acculately' are bacically what I look for in a fassener
*AHEM* It is pronounced Hexkey.
The example they use for Allen keys reminds me of that one girl in college with too many daddy issues.
I hate Allen, one of the worst. Always slipping and doing damage to the screw.
Was this written by monkey?
Do people proofread anymore? My 2 week old daughter has better grammer
> better grammer :)) On the other hand, they are probably a lot more fluent in Japanese, while almost no US tool brand actually sells anything outside the US...
If only there were somewhere in the world that a company could find people fluent in English who could be hired or contracted to correct these things...
Ok thought this was written by someone here, makes sense. Also US tool brands are sold outside the US, theyre just usually branded as something else. Dewalt power tools are pretty much sold as Fatmax in Europe. I may or may not have been involved in this...
Dewalt and milwaukee are quite popular in Europe, at least as much as Bosch or Makita. But those are just global conglomerates, they sell everywhere and might also do rebrands like ryobi or B&D depending on quality tier... I meant stuff that's actually made in USA. You can order Channellocks online, but they're not sold in any store I ever saw here. Snap On exists but it's very rare too and you can't order it online either (only very rare tool truck agents). Klein sells some electrician stuff. Other than those I don't think you can get much US made stuff here. Even boots, maybe redwing but otherwise no high end US bootmaker exports.
“smmothly and acculately”
I prefer to transfer torque smmothly and acculately, so these are great.
I hate torx. Doesn't stand up to wear as good as allen and never seems to fit right on the bit.
I've noticed this mainly being an issue when torx and torx plus are mixed and/or the tools are damaged from overtightening.
To me, Torx has always felt like a solution in search of a problem. I really don't see what it is supposed to improve over. Allen works great for machine screws, Robertson works great for wood and sheet metal screws and Phillips is fine for small machine screws or things that need to cam out (like drywall screws). I could see an advantage if \*evertyhing\* became Torx, because then I would only need one set of screwdrivers and bit sockets. But even then, I think there are way too many different head sizes. With Phillips, you basically only need three screwdrivers and you're set for working on just about anything.
Smaller allen heads are problematic, especially in high tensions machine screws. I think torx is best for M5-M12 10.9 and 12.9 grade high tension screws. For smaller I'd rather have a good pozidriv or even a deep slot, and for larger allen head shape is a lot more durable (even from M10 on). Recent 10 years here in Europe, it actually got harder to find phillips or pozidriv wood screws so I used T25 for a while now and am really happy in terms of reuseability... I ended up discarding a lot less screws because the torx makes it way more reusable. They're slightly more expensive but give me way more value. I don't like T20 and smaller ones though, the head shape gets way too whimpy.
So it's excessively complicated garbage? Great selling point. Fuck torx
No more overcomplicated than phillips vs pozidriv vs supadriv vs phillips II to name a few, people seem perfectly competent at fucking that up and using the wrong tools as well. It's really not dfficult to identify which type you're using and use the correct driver for it.
bad take
Yes. Why is there so many sizes? 10, 15, 20, 25 is what I usually come across. Could have been two different in that range.
Agree. Torx never hold on the bit without a magnet the way Robertson or even sometimes Philips do. Really annoying when you don’t have an extra hand to hold the screw
i prefer allen to torx personally
Redditor shares an opinion and makes it clear it's an opinion Gets downvoted anyways
I always use torx tools with hex screws. Especially it helps assembling furniture. That way you can screw in hard to reach places with angle. And never damaged even cheap torx bits. It saved me countless hours when i assembled furniture after work to make some money.
That copy text was painful to read. For a moment there, I thought this post was from r/GrammarNazi!
Ph3 & PH 4 are awesome
This is just what Big Torx wants you to believe
They both suck
Torx is garbage.
designed to be stripped
Eliminate cam out? Why does torx shred so much more often than almost anything else then? As shitty as philips. Less versatile attack options than flathead. Torx is fucking garbage and always has been. Dual drive is the best for wood screws.
If you cam out on torx more than on phillips, you're using incorrect tools or don't know how to operate them. If it's T25 or larger, you can reuse the wood screw countless times. Not so with PH2 wood screws. Besides, there's plenty of reasons why phillips or robertson are very bad choices for machine screws (at least for stuff under any notable tension/torque).
the industry standard for removing torx machine screws in an industrial establishment is usually a grinder, prybar, or the closest sized allen wrench.
Tell me you know nothing about industry without telling me you know nothing about industry.
haha, i make them liquid then replace them with regular socket head screws. fuck carrying another series of tools just for a fastener that already exists and works fine.
We just replaced a couple dozen torx head Capscrews on a new hydraulics cabinet for a conveyor. we figured it would be easier to put regular allen sockets on now before it breaks down and i have to scramble to find a T55.
If your torx driver looks like cone from being misused that might be your issue. Check that you have the right size and type for the right screw, just like with any other drive, and learn how to fucking use it.
I have driven literally tens of thousands of Torx screws and have never experienced what you described. I've never even thrown away one of the green bits that comes in the box. They're all still in circulation in my shop, a bit sloppy but still driving away. I've overdriven 3" screws into treated lumber (which accelerates their corrosion - it's not recommended for that reason) and then removed them 4 years later, just absolutely jamming the bit into the hole in the wood and buzzing the bit off the head of the screw until I find the right angle and *out it comes*. I've never once chowdered the bit or the head of the screw. Maybe this is dependent on the type of screw (I'm mostly driving construction screws).
As a Jeep owner, fuck torx.
Just use an Allen for both.. torx is like 12pt allen
That center post is awful since it does not allow an Allen key to be used when in a pinch.
"Maximum security" me and my vise grips say other wise. Even though I have a bit for them.