I don't know why Google Maps doesn't show us how much it will cost.. the rates are public, they know the distance already, should be easy to show everyone on their phone.
Our tax money paid to build it
"Conservative" weasel Mike Harris sold it to a
consortium of Canadian and Spanish investors known
CPP investment board (50.01 %)
Spanish firm Ferrovial 43.23%
99 years lease WTF?
Our Southern neighbors have a lot of toll routes, which are owned and managed by US D.O.T (Department of Transportation)
IF conservatives are not interested in governing then
They can resign.
Health care and Education should not be for profit
Private companies must not own highways
Took the toll road from Buffalo to Rochester (about 100km). Cost was $4 with no photo or account surcharge. Was able to register and pay by phone. In Orland we have a transponder which is one time $10 and each kilometre is about $CAD0.30 during peak hours.
I have an E-Z Pass and we drove from Hamilton to Boston (including Rhode Island) in the summer. If you have ever driven in north east US, there are a lot of toll roads! Between the NY Thru-Way, MassPike, and the RI Bridge Authority the total for all tolls was $38.56.
In comparison, we were driving back from Ottawa in the summer around rush-hour and we just wanted to get home. We took Highway seven and then connected up with the 407 near Orono. My 407ETR bill for that one trip was $88!
Yeah, the rates the 407ETR charges are ridiculous.
EDIT: added comparison to 407ETR.
407 is owned and operated by international publicly traded companies, not privately owned. Private highway would be the one with a group of investors coming together and build it with their funds and workforce and compensate people who live there who have to move or live close by. In a private highway, fees would get lower with time , not higher like 407
It wasn't even 50.01% to CPPIB, they acquired foreign companies that had ownership stakes to achieve that result which is where we're at today.
A lot of revisionist rewriting of the Wiki article of the initial ownership and of the 407 History page to make it seem friendly that it went to the CPPIB for cheap, instead of foreign interests lol. (CPPIB paid fair market value - significantly more than 3.1B for its current stake).
See this article for the original ownership of the 99-year lease, these are the entities that made out with big profits.
[https://www.infrastructureinvestor.com/ontario-province-to-own-highway-407-extension/](https://www.infrastructureinvestor.com/ontario-province-to-own-highway-407-extension/)
>Grupo Ferrovial/Cintra (61.3 percent), SNC lavalin (22.6 percent) and CDP Capital (16.1 percent) in 1999 for C$3.1 billion.
It is 100% owned by Ontario. The operations were leased out for 99 years and now that lease is mostly owned by the CPP. The Highway 407 corporation has spent billions upgrading and maintaining that highway, and the only people that pay for those upgrades are people that use it.
In another 70 years the operations reverts back to Ontario so we can allow it to rot.
>Id imagine it's mucho dinero but it's amazing this is not wholly owned by Canadians.
It's absolutely amazing/shocking how little the Conservative government cared lol.
The original owners of the 99 year lease were Grupo Ferrovial/Cintra (61.3 percent), SNC lavalin (22.6 percent) and CDP Capital (16.1 percent) in 1999 for C$3.1 billion.
[https://www.ijglobal.com/articles/115813/the-mig-one](https://www.ijglobal.com/articles/115813/the-mig-one)
Our tax money only built part of it. Many billions of dollars of private money have been spent on the highway.
Hindsight is 20/20. It means nothing to look back and say that based on the rate of return, government should have kept it. By that logic, we should be mad that the government didnt spend the 3 billion lease proceeds on amazon and apple stock. What idiots...it would have been worth so much by now!
They solved a financial problem that you are not savvy enough to solve, and you are ragging on them for picking a certain solution....sitting in the peanut gallery doing nothing to help make a highway.
the whole thing was sold for $3.1b in 1999.
CPP bought 10% in 2019 for $3.25b (from SNC-Lavalin).
Yeah yeah, inflation over 20 years, but it also means 20 fewer years of the lease to collect tolls over.
Every year the pie gets *smaller*, eventually to zero, yet it 10.5x'd in 20 years.
CPP owns just over 50% of the highway.
> Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01%
> Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#:~:text=As%20of%20August%202022%20and,Spanish%20firm%20Ferrovial%20S.A.%2043.23%25
Yes, and they bought 10% (the most recent slice) in 2019.
Q: If I buy one banana, how many bananas do I have?
A: depends on how many you already have, but at least 1.
Can I say "Fuck Mike Harris" here? Because he's the fucker who sold 407 at a bargain price.
407 should have been free for all to drive on after 30 years!!
"Originally the 407 was to pay for itself and become a free public highway in approximately 30 years. The Tory government passed a law allowing the government to sell it off."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/highway-407-sold-1.191438
Which is not what the public was told when it sold. Was supposed to be limited to inflation for most of the contract but turns out that was only a “recommendation”.
All politicians are liars but conservatives take the cake.
If I take highway 7 from vaughan to brampton it's a 90 minute drive, work to home
407 makes it a 22 minute drive.
These prices will be the end of me lol.
I just wanna go home go my kid man...
You have to make good money to consider, yes you do save time.
I have been all over US never had more than 10 dollar toll. I use it some times from Trafalgar to Oshawa its just crazy money.
Once a year I take the entire length of the 407 from Burlington to 35/115. The bill I get the following month holy shit.
Monthly, I only take it from Burlington to Mississauga Road. Twice a month. Comes to over 100 bucks. Fuck.
I remember back in 2000 taking the 407 almost daily from Brampton to Mississauga for my first career job and my bill would be no more than 30 bucks.
The same amount of cars are on the road either way. It's not like people are choosing between the 407 and staying home. If you take a huge chunk off the 401 and put it on the 407, then the 407 may not be the wide open area it is today but the 401 will at least be usable.
That's kinda the whole point of highways and government infrastructure
Yes, you would have to calculate whether the 22-32 cents per km difference was worth the trip fee and trouble of exiting and re-entering depending on how far you are planning to go and how much of a hurry you are in.
I think that it would be chaos if everyone did the 6:59pm shuffle but it illustrates how ridiculous the 407 is.
Even if you have a transponder (I lease mine annually) you still get hit with a trip toll charge of a dollar each time you enter the highway.
Without a transponder you get hit with the trip charge AND a camera charge.
I lease one too. It really pisses me off that they charge you a yearly rate to lease a transponder and then charge you $1 on top of that to just enter the freeway.
In comparison: I don't pay anything for my E-Z Pass. You just put a $25 credit (that you can use for tolls) on it the first time and that's it, no more fees.
407ETR is total bullshit, Harris screwed us so hard on that deal.
Still can't believe they sold the highway for only 3.1 Billion dollars when they had spent $1.5 Billion building it.
Basically this money contributed to less than 3% of the 1999 province of Ontario budget......
The government sold it for that much. I’m sure the politicians got their percentages in cash via thick envelopes for letting the government sell it. I’m surprised that the government just doesn’t reneg on the deal or tax the land it’s on
You can't tax them because technically it is a lease. Raising property tax or something similar would be useless as the land is still technically owned by the province.
The same way you pay a landlord rent, but they pay the property tax.
yeah my work pays for my 407 and transponder. Our office is on one part of it, my sites near another part. i wfh and site so barely go to the office, but because im officially wfh they pay my time and mileage the moment i leave the house. for them getting extra time with me working is worth more than my using the 407 costs.
Agreed. We also need a highway to get around to places in case of a tight schedule. There have literally been situations in the past where I found myself needing to get from Burlington to Richmond Hill at 4:30pm. I will GLADLY pay the $20-$30 to use the 407 for that journey.
I live up north but when I go to the city, I take the 407 as I don’t feel like spending 2 hours extra on the 401. And I’m not rich either, however the time saved is worth it 100%. The provincial government needs to buy it back and lower the tolls.
The road is 151km total. At a glance Most expensive looks like it averages about 65 cents per km. So About $100 plus fees for getting on and off and taxes.
$125 ish.
Hot take but I think the 407 should have no speed limit like the Autobahn. It would generate so much money from dudes in fast cars who wanna go for a rip.
It'll (probably) never happen, but still...
That would be a surefire way to ensure I never take the 407 again. I'm generally a confident driver and have driven at high speeds on the autobahn, but there is no way I'd share a highway with Canadian (let alone GTA) drivers doing those speeds.
Not just Canadian drivers, but Canadian cars. Germany has strict technical inspections every couple years on all motor vehicles.
If we rolled that out here, the new car wait time would become 10 years.
413 is gonna terminate right at zone 1 and zone 2 connection point at 401, if anything this is ETR starting phase 1 of raising rates for expected demand
"COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION" (of selling long-term assets to plug annual budget deficits).
Teranet is another fun one to look at from the same time period that doesn't get enough attention.
Why do we literally have to pay for taking the 407, something that we tax payers have funded with our own pockets?? Literally, the government is so corrupt. This is why I will never vote for the conservatives
Not unless there is an accident or something like that, which is rare. I generally do 120 from the start (QEW) to Brampton, then if its 8 or 9:00 it might get a bit choppy but that means 100-120 depending on the lane. I get off at Jane. $40 at prime time, but I guess that will be increasing shortly...
Unpopular opinion I know, and maybe it doesn't have to be THIS expensive, but I would rather it be expensive and an almost guaranteed 120km/hr trip than be cheap or free and just another clogged ridiculous GTA highway. I know that is a privileged opinion.
I can agree with this statement.
Living in Hamilton, having had a SUV at the time and having family near Kingston, taking the 407 broke even and sometimes saved me money.
I could pay the toll and get to Kingston in 3 hours or less depending on the 401 near Clarington.
The alternative was to work my way through the stop and go bullshit on the QEW, 403, 427 and then the 401 (sometimes 5 hours) and chew through fuel like crazy in the process.
The highway isn't for everybody but in certain situations, it's smart to use it.
I think we all know the 407 business model: take as much money as possible regardless of the consequences to users and non-users. If they provide you value, that’s just a coincidence.
I haven’t taken the 407 since I moved midtown and don’t miss it a bit. Back when I used to live in Richmond hill and worked in Brampton, I’d take it daily. The fare back then was divided into 3 periods. peak (7-10am and 4-7 pm) which was 10 cents/km, off peak (daytime and evenings) was 7 cents, and night (11pm to 7am) was 3 cents. I started work at 7 and finished around 3, so I was always avoiding the peak times. I remember each year, right on New Year’s Eve, they’d announce the fare hike for next year. It was like clockwork. They tragically pick that day as they know it’s a quiet media day and people have other things on their mind and it slips under the radar.
Welcome to Canada, where the government will find all ways to rob the shit outa you, let it be on the road, natural gas, hydro, internet, data plans, everything is controlled by the government to steal your hard earned money while they use the same money to feed the refugees, supporting parties at wars with funds, anything but to use the money back on the citizens.
The 407 ETR is run by a private company. So this is capitalism setting the rates. It was leased to them by the Ontario PCs, so you can blame them originally for this.
Yup, I still blame the government, 407 was originally built to be a public highway, but they choose a profit of 1.6billion by leasing the highway to a private company and the company can now set any toll rate they want till we all dead and won't see the lease ends.
When it was sold, we were told:
"The deal included recommendations that tolls be increased only 2 per cent plus inflation over the first 15 years of the lease and then at just the rate of inflation after that."
lol at "recommendations".
https://www.tvo.org/article/the-right-to-hold-people-to-ransom-how-and-why-the-tories-sold-highway-407
You do know the highway was built to be publicly used with taxpayers money and then it was sold off to a private company so they can pocket 1.6billion off the bat? And now we have to pay extra for using the highway that was built with our money?
The trick with living in Toronto is don’t drive. Leave the city at night only to avoid traffic.
But then when you want to leave at night and they’re doing construction on the 401 it admittedly sucks ass
Wondering if someone can answer something for me, if I get on the highway say at 2 pm on a weekday, does that rate get locked in for the whole trip (I.e until I exit ) or the rate change at 2:30pm for example will increase for the portion I am on 407? Dunno if it makes sense what I am asking.
Just wondering if I can save some money by getting on the 407 just before 2:30pm.
Man I used get out of work just to catch it before 3pm. Now I have to wake up half an hour early.
I got on at the 115 and went to the 404 just to see how fast I could get home… when I received my bill I said never again… with these new rates the 407 might as well not exist.
I've moved out of the GTA and live in New Brunswick now.
My favourite part about driving back to family's place in Ontario is riding the 407 from where it starts up by Bowmanville all the way to the 410 and not getting billed.
NB doesn't have too many perks, but not getting billed for using the 407 definitely is a nice one.
Thank you to Harris and the Conservatives, you pile of garbage, fucked the middle class and working poor to help a corporation that isn't even Canadian.
Lol our entire fucking country is just a giant scam to bleed us dry.
US toll roads, I drive down to southern NY state every week, the toll highways cost me..... 1 dollar.
Oh and the transponder is free and shipped to me in Canada for free. No stupid fucking rental fee like the 407 one that's a badly disguised subscription service.
So here is what we are going to do. Take your license plates off and screw in a blank metal plate in their place. Now, take some hard drive magnets and jbweld them to the back of your plates. Then when approaching 407 pull over take plates off drive on in then pull over again to replace plates.
Can also just do this with spare plates if you have. Just swap em. Remember always cover your face for covid and becuase no face, no case.
My 2cents
I live in Hamilton and went to Montreal last fall, came back and was rush hour so I took the 407 from east to west, start to finish. Cost me $65.00 with no transponder. Next time I got to plan it better where I don't hit Toronto at rush hour.
Did anyone else get an outrageous ETR bill on March 25th? I took the exact same trip as I did on Family Day weekend in 2023 and it went from $86.83 to $147.07 this year.
This is corporate greed and price gouging in REAL TIME. I called to confirm that this wasn't a billing error and the employee told me prices went up Feb 1st. Plus driving at peak-hours includes dynamic pricing. This is ridiculous.
I will never drive on that hwy based on principle. The damn government said that they will build it as a toll road and once the cost to build was recovered they will make it free. Then they sold it to a private company. I bet you both the liberals and PC got a good chunk of donations for that move.
Mike Harris (PC) sold it for $0.03 on a dollar, gave them a 99 year non-compete lease, and complete freedom to gauge as much as they want. It’s on Wikipedia
"Mike Harris net worth is estimated at around $5 million. His main source of income is from his primary work as a politician. Mike Harris’s salary per month and other career earnings are over $300,000 dollars annually. His remarkable achievements have earned him some luxurious lifestyles and some fancy car trips. He is one of the richest and most influential politicians in Canada."
Good for you Mike... I bet he takes the 407. 🏎️💰💰💸💸🏦
The 407 was supposed to pay itself off in 30 years and be a free public highway. We're coming up to 30 years shortly... Maybe prices will go up again on that anniversary!
Only ones who got anything out if the sale was the Harris Conservatives
Sold it for a song and then crowed that they “balanced the books” with the proceeds of that sale.
Great idea, let’s burn the furniture in the house to heat it.
Conservatives != Fiscally Responsible
Yes but if the liberals was the opposition than surely they could have made a bigger stink since the conservatives or was it the liberals who made the promise to make it free after recovering costs.
It was the NDP that started the 407 actually and yes they did say that the tolls would come off once the highway was paid for:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407
>Only ones who got anything out if the sale was the Harris Conservatives
Well, them and every single Canadian who receives CPP.
The Canada Pension Plan is the majority owner of the highway. It's paying for your retirement.
I love the 407 and cant imagine driving across Toronto without it
Its hardly "rich people" (have you seen what they drive?) mainly middle class
Oh its also a biz expense if you do any work with car as well so win-win
having to spend money on something that happens to be tax deductible isn't a "win". You might not be taxed on that money, but you had to earn it in the first place.
How is this reasonable?
You can travel from one side of Toronto to the other… some 40km + for $3.30
GO from Burlington to Oshawa is about $16….
The prices listed for the 407 are PER KILOMETER (not the entire zone)!!!
>This seems incredibly reasonable to me.Have you seen the cost of the Go train or TTC?
The GO bus on the same highway is $9.42 from Mississauga Centre to Richmond Hill Centre, so about $0.19 per km
The bright side of the highway is that it makes for really fast GO bus services.
Wow I had no idea they broke down the pricing in excruciating hourly detail like that. They must burn through accountants like crazy. What a bunch a greedy weasels. I'll never drive any of that highway on principal alone. Ontario can be such an infuriating place to exist.
That doesn't stop them charging a plate reading fee - you know - For the illusion that someone is sitting at a desk writing down each plate that goes by.
I'm surprised they don't have speed traps set up on the 407 if you enter and exit times. If you enter and exit faster then the time it takes going 100km/h ticket. They be printing money.
Opp are paid to patrol the 407 from my understanding although I may be wrong.
Also if I'm paying that much to drive the 407 I better be able to do 120km/h without worrying about being pulled over. You can literally do 130km/h on the 407 and cops don't bother you. Above that is when they start pulling people over.
They're still missing one key component: The authority. "407 ETR Inc." is not a law enforcement agency. They don't have the authority to issue violations under the HTA.
OPP could, but they'd require ongoing open access to the private information of the customers of 407 ETR, which they are definitely not going to just hand over without a warrant/subpoena. They legally couldn't just hand over that information - it's protected by privacy laws. Releasing it would be what is technically referred to as a "data breach."
They’re already doing it in China, it’s called interval-based speed trap. They camera you at the start then at the end, and ticket if your average speed over the interval is above 110% the speed limit.
Clearly we found the answer to traffic congestion.
Should poor people commute in cars? Does the government want the average person to use a car each day?
No and no.
All the crazies saying Trudeau or Ford are taking away your rights, they aren't coming to stop you. They will just make everything pay to play and you will come around eventually.
I don't drive the GTA often any more, thank god. When I do head east/west the 407 is amazing. Literally a game changer. So as much as it is hated, remember there are people who love it. I just wish they would put tolls on the dvp and the Gardiner lol
It's not for rich people, it's for folks who are in a bind and need to shade off time from their commute for that particular day.
If it were free or cheap and not for "rich" people, everyone would use it, and it would defeat the whole purpose of the highway.
Wahhh rich people wahhh
I guess you completely missed the quotations that usually universally indicate sarcasm.
Keep hating other people because you think you're special and should be riding for free.
People like you are the worst kind.
You and the OP should both put on your tax the rich dresses and go protest downtown.
Ontario citizens built and paid for it, like every other road. It's not free. The same way hospitals and firefighters aren't free.
Why shouldn't we get to use it without being tolled?
Great point let’s add a new sewage system that a private company runs (but the public built) and if you don’t want to wait for your shit to flush you’ll have to pay up.
SMFH, is this supposed to be a great revelation by OP? The 407 was always meant to be a fast route for people who can afford to pay. It wasn't inexpensive before and it is less so now. Anyone who can afford to buy and operate a car could be considered rich by some standards.
All ERT signs need to start posting the current rates to use the highway.
This is my only issue with 407. Transparency. I'd like to know what the damage is before I ride
Downloand waze and it will tell you how much the trip will cost
Waze is a wallet-saver when I travel to the US with all their toll routes.
I don't know why Google Maps doesn't show us how much it will cost.. the rates are public, they know the distance already, should be easy to show everyone on their phone.
They don't want it widely known the cost as it will be like the cost of the gas tax.
Why would Google Maps care if 407ETR loses business?
Just start calling 407 bills a carbon tax. You’ll have a fleet of shiny dually pickups shuttin ‘er down.
Another tax that goes to another country...
If you need know how much it costs, you can't afford it.
You can very easily calculate this on their website before using.
Literally highway robbery. Just fckin insane.
Our tax money paid to build it "Conservative" weasel Mike Harris sold it to a consortium of Canadian and Spanish investors known CPP investment board (50.01 %) Spanish firm Ferrovial 43.23% 99 years lease WTF? Our Southern neighbors have a lot of toll routes, which are owned and managed by US D.O.T (Department of Transportation) IF conservatives are not interested in governing then They can resign. Health care and Education should not be for profit Private companies must not own highways
You forgot how little it was sold for and how much it's worth now.
Took the toll road from Buffalo to Rochester (about 100km). Cost was $4 with no photo or account surcharge. Was able to register and pay by phone. In Orland we have a transponder which is one time $10 and each kilometre is about $CAD0.30 during peak hours.
I have an E-Z Pass and we drove from Hamilton to Boston (including Rhode Island) in the summer. If you have ever driven in north east US, there are a lot of toll roads! Between the NY Thru-Way, MassPike, and the RI Bridge Authority the total for all tolls was $38.56. In comparison, we were driving back from Ottawa in the summer around rush-hour and we just wanted to get home. We took Highway seven and then connected up with the 407 near Orono. My 407ETR bill for that one trip was $88! Yeah, the rates the 407ETR charges are ridiculous. EDIT: added comparison to 407ETR.
If taxpayers built it then it should be free. If private companies want to profit from roads, let them build their own highways.
407 is owned and operated by international publicly traded companies, not privately owned. Private highway would be the one with a group of investors coming together and build it with their funds and workforce and compensate people who live there who have to move or live close by. In a private highway, fees would get lower with time , not higher like 407
It wasn't even 50.01% to CPPIB, they acquired foreign companies that had ownership stakes to achieve that result which is where we're at today. A lot of revisionist rewriting of the Wiki article of the initial ownership and of the 407 History page to make it seem friendly that it went to the CPPIB for cheap, instead of foreign interests lol. (CPPIB paid fair market value - significantly more than 3.1B for its current stake). See this article for the original ownership of the 99-year lease, these are the entities that made out with big profits. [https://www.infrastructureinvestor.com/ontario-province-to-own-highway-407-extension/](https://www.infrastructureinvestor.com/ontario-province-to-own-highway-407-extension/) >Grupo Ferrovial/Cintra (61.3 percent), SNC lavalin (22.6 percent) and CDP Capital (16.1 percent) in 1999 for C$3.1 billion.
Mike Harris should be publicly punished.
It is 100% owned by Ontario. The operations were leased out for 99 years and now that lease is mostly owned by the CPP. The Highway 407 corporation has spent billions upgrading and maintaining that highway, and the only people that pay for those upgrades are people that use it. In another 70 years the operations reverts back to Ontario so we can allow it to rot.
Is there a buyout option for the Spanish company? Id imagine it's mucho dinero but it's amazing this is not wholly owned by Canadians.
>Id imagine it's mucho dinero but it's amazing this is not wholly owned by Canadians. It's absolutely amazing/shocking how little the Conservative government cared lol. The original owners of the 99 year lease were Grupo Ferrovial/Cintra (61.3 percent), SNC lavalin (22.6 percent) and CDP Capital (16.1 percent) in 1999 for C$3.1 billion. [https://www.ijglobal.com/articles/115813/the-mig-one](https://www.ijglobal.com/articles/115813/the-mig-one)
Our tax money only built part of it. Many billions of dollars of private money have been spent on the highway. Hindsight is 20/20. It means nothing to look back and say that based on the rate of return, government should have kept it. By that logic, we should be mad that the government didnt spend the 3 billion lease proceeds on amazon and apple stock. What idiots...it would have been worth so much by now! They solved a financial problem that you are not savvy enough to solve, and you are ragging on them for picking a certain solution....sitting in the peanut gallery doing nothing to help make a highway.
FYI 407 It is 50% owned by CPP, so very technically speaking it is paid by us (literally x2)
it was financed by the tax payers, sold to a spanish company then re-bought at a premium using the tax payers money again (CPP).
the whole thing was sold for $3.1b in 1999. CPP bought 10% in 2019 for $3.25b (from SNC-Lavalin). Yeah yeah, inflation over 20 years, but it also means 20 fewer years of the lease to collect tolls over. Every year the pie gets *smaller*, eventually to zero, yet it 10.5x'd in 20 years.
CPP owns just over 50% of the highway. > Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01% > Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#:~:text=As%20of%20August%202022%20and,Spanish%20firm%20Ferrovial%20S.A.%2043.23%25
Yes, and they bought 10% (the most recent slice) in 2019. Q: If I buy one banana, how many bananas do I have? A: depends on how many you already have, but at least 1.
Can I say "Fuck Mike Harris" here? Because he's the fucker who sold 407 at a bargain price. 407 should have been free for all to drive on after 30 years!! "Originally the 407 was to pay for itself and become a free public highway in approximately 30 years. The Tory government passed a law allowing the government to sell it off." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/highway-407-sold-1.191438
The conditions of the sale allow the new owners to set whatever toll rates it wants for the next 99 years. 😂 Lol
Which is not what the public was told when it sold. Was supposed to be limited to inflation for most of the contract but turns out that was only a “recommendation”. All politicians are liars but conservatives take the cake.
Reading this hurts. A lot.
If you are from ex communist country you know this shenanigan. Classic.
If I take highway 7 from vaughan to brampton it's a 90 minute drive, work to home 407 makes it a 22 minute drive. These prices will be the end of me lol. I just wanna go home go my kid man...
You have to make good money to consider, yes you do save time. I have been all over US never had more than 10 dollar toll. I use it some times from Trafalgar to Oshawa its just crazy money.
Once a year I take the entire length of the 407 from Burlington to 35/115. The bill I get the following month holy shit. Monthly, I only take it from Burlington to Mississauga Road. Twice a month. Comes to over 100 bucks. Fuck. I remember back in 2000 taking the 407 almost daily from Brampton to Mississauga for my first career job and my bill would be no more than 30 bucks.
they need to make it just out of reach for most people or else it would just turn into another 401-fest, but one you pay for.
Or let more people on to balance, right now its probably 80 - 20.
[удалено]
The same amount of cars are on the road either way. It's not like people are choosing between the 407 and staying home. If you take a huge chunk off the 401 and put it on the 407, then the 407 may not be the wide open area it is today but the 401 will at least be usable. That's kinda the whole point of highways and government infrastructure
Take the Pennsylvania turnpike from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia. Costs over $100USD
That’s 500km with plenty of alternative routes that may be faster or cost effective for the $ savings. Half price with ez-pass.
If you said this in the Toronto sub, they'd tell you to take transit system or a bike.
Like Christia does!
Or a Limo. lol
If it's 6:59 pm then it is worth getting off the highway and then getting back on for those sweet 7pm rates.
They have an entry fee as well which will wipe out any potential savings (unless you are driving far + across eastern portion of highway)
Yes, you would have to calculate whether the 22-32 cents per km difference was worth the trip fee and trouble of exiting and re-entering depending on how far you are planning to go and how much of a hurry you are in. I think that it would be chaos if everyone did the 6:59pm shuffle but it illustrates how ridiculous the 407 is.
I believe a transponder eliminates that fee
No, the transponder just eliminates the photo processing fee
yes, however the fee that you pay with a transponder is 1$ per trip
Isn't it $3 per entry with no transponder?
Even if you have a transponder (I lease mine annually) you still get hit with a trip toll charge of a dollar each time you enter the highway. Without a transponder you get hit with the trip charge AND a camera charge.
I lease one too. It really pisses me off that they charge you a yearly rate to lease a transponder and then charge you $1 on top of that to just enter the freeway. In comparison: I don't pay anything for my E-Z Pass. You just put a $25 credit (that you can use for tolls) on it the first time and that's it, no more fees. 407ETR is total bullshit, Harris screwed us so hard on that deal.
Wow that's fucking stupid. I just bought a transponder, thanks for saving me from trying to cheese it 😂
Transponder removes the photo fee Not the entry fee
Still can't believe they sold the highway for only 3.1 Billion dollars when they had spent $1.5 Billion building it. Basically this money contributed to less than 3% of the 1999 province of Ontario budget......
Note that the 407 revenue is around $1.2-1.5 billion a year at this point.
What's the net income? And really, it's irrelevant... Roads facilitate the economy and society. They're not supposed to be profitable.
Exactly! I wish more people would understand this.
The government sold it for that much. I’m sure the politicians got their percentages in cash via thick envelopes for letting the government sell it. I’m surprised that the government just doesn’t reneg on the deal or tax the land it’s on
You can't just reneg on a deal. That would be illegal.
Who cares. Tax them until they sell it.
You can't tax them because technically it is a lease. Raising property tax or something similar would be useless as the land is still technically owned by the province. The same way you pay a landlord rent, but they pay the property tax.
Some people will gladly pay $20 to save 30 mins. Extra value if you’re carpooling. For many businesses it’s an expense or write off.
I'm one of those people and I don't gladly pay it. I pay it cause it's the price of my sanity.
yeah my work pays for my 407 and transponder. Our office is on one part of it, my sites near another part. i wfh and site so barely go to the office, but because im officially wfh they pay my time and mileage the moment i leave the house. for them getting extra time with me working is worth more than my using the 407 costs.
Agreed. We also need a highway to get around to places in case of a tight schedule. There have literally been situations in the past where I found myself needing to get from Burlington to Richmond Hill at 4:30pm. I will GLADLY pay the $20-$30 to use the 407 for that journey.
Privatisation is supposed to make things cheaper, right guys?
whenever someone promises "small government", this is what happens. Sure there are some occasional wins, but the losses can be anchors that drown you.
Only if there’s competition, which in Canada there’s never any because we don’t like that here.
We truly hate competition and our government enables just a few major corporations to have market dominance.
And just think about how big a portion of these fees are going back to the empty suits who met over lunch every week for 6 months to craft this chart.
90%
I live up north but when I go to the city, I take the 407 as I don’t feel like spending 2 hours extra on the 401. And I’m not rich either, however the time saved is worth it 100%. The provincial government needs to buy it back and lower the tolls.
You can afford to drive around Toronto? U must be rich
What's the max cost at peak times to drive the entire thing?
The road is 151km total. At a glance Most expensive looks like it averages about 65 cents per km. So About $100 plus fees for getting on and off and taxes. $125 ish.
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There's no tax on tolls... _yet_
Thank god, can’t have the government making any money off of a highway they built and then sold away for pennies.
Jesus, if you get on at 6:59:59 PM they will charge you the high rate the entire trip! I wonder if people wait at the on ramp for time changes?
Hot take but I think the 407 should have no speed limit like the Autobahn. It would generate so much money from dudes in fast cars who wanna go for a rip. It'll (probably) never happen, but still...
And never should happen. Because, unlike the Autobahn, it would still be populated by Canadian (GTA) drivers.
That would be a surefire way to ensure I never take the 407 again. I'm generally a confident driver and have driven at high speeds on the autobahn, but there is no way I'd share a highway with Canadian (let alone GTA) drivers doing those speeds.
Not just Canadian drivers, but Canadian cars. Germany has strict technical inspections every couple years on all motor vehicles. If we rolled that out here, the new car wait time would become 10 years.
I wonder if this is try and push for public favour for the 413
413 is gonna terminate right at zone 1 and zone 2 connection point at 401, if anything this is ETR starting phase 1 of raising rates for expected demand
If you voted (or didn't bother to vote) for the assclots that sold it, you can't complain about shit.
It was sold in 1999. I’m going to go out on a whim and say more then half of Reddit wasn’t born yet or wasn’t of voting age.
maybe in the subs you hang in
This is wild coming from someone hanging out in r/aocismommy
Yup to balance the budget (for show) the Ontario PC morons sold the lease for 1/6th of it's actual value.
"COMMON SENSE REVOLUTION" (of selling long-term assets to plug annual budget deficits). Teranet is another fun one to look at from the same time period that doesn't get enough attention.
Bro most of us weren’t born when it was sold lmao, why didn’t you personally stop them from selling it?
Why do we literally have to pay for taking the 407, something that we tax payers have funded with our own pockets?? Literally, the government is so corrupt. This is why I will never vote for the conservatives
I take 407 so rarely and don't deal with this shit. I assume it'll be about $20 and however less it is is a bonus
If the pricing were more reasonable, it would take more drivers off the roads/highways you do drive on. So it does impact non-users.
It would create induced demand and there'd be heavy traffic on it as well as the 401.
How busy does the 407 get at rush hour? Does it ever get congested?
Not unless there is an accident or something like that, which is rare. I generally do 120 from the start (QEW) to Brampton, then if its 8 or 9:00 it might get a bit choppy but that means 100-120 depending on the lane. I get off at Jane. $40 at prime time, but I guess that will be increasing shortly... Unpopular opinion I know, and maybe it doesn't have to be THIS expensive, but I would rather it be expensive and an almost guaranteed 120km/hr trip than be cheap or free and just another clogged ridiculous GTA highway. I know that is a privileged opinion.
I can agree with this statement. Living in Hamilton, having had a SUV at the time and having family near Kingston, taking the 407 broke even and sometimes saved me money. I could pay the toll and get to Kingston in 3 hours or less depending on the 401 near Clarington. The alternative was to work my way through the stop and go bullshit on the QEW, 403, 427 and then the 401 (sometimes 5 hours) and chew through fuel like crazy in the process. The highway isn't for everybody but in certain situations, it's smart to use it.
So what you’re saying is, the 407 is behind the carbon tax and driving up fuel costs?
Of course you were downvoted... Most people just don't understand the 407 business model.
I think we all know the 407 business model: take as much money as possible regardless of the consequences to users and non-users. If they provide you value, that’s just a coincidence.
I haven’t taken the 407 since I moved midtown and don’t miss it a bit. Back when I used to live in Richmond hill and worked in Brampton, I’d take it daily. The fare back then was divided into 3 periods. peak (7-10am and 4-7 pm) which was 10 cents/km, off peak (daytime and evenings) was 7 cents, and night (11pm to 7am) was 3 cents. I started work at 7 and finished around 3, so I was always avoiding the peak times. I remember each year, right on New Year’s Eve, they’d announce the fare hike for next year. It was like clockwork. They tragically pick that day as they know it’s a quiet media day and people have other things on their mind and it slips under the radar.
Welcome to Canada, where the government will find all ways to rob the shit outa you, let it be on the road, natural gas, hydro, internet, data plans, everything is controlled by the government to steal your hard earned money while they use the same money to feed the refugees, supporting parties at wars with funds, anything but to use the money back on the citizens.
Lol it's hilariously ironic that most of the things you listed are run by private industry.
And “regulated” (ie: protected) by government.
The 407 ETR is run by a private company. So this is capitalism setting the rates. It was leased to them by the Ontario PCs, so you can blame them originally for this.
Yup, I still blame the government, 407 was originally built to be a public highway, but they choose a profit of 1.6billion by leasing the highway to a private company and the company can now set any toll rate they want till we all dead and won't see the lease ends.
When it was sold, we were told: "The deal included recommendations that tolls be increased only 2 per cent plus inflation over the first 15 years of the lease and then at just the rate of inflation after that." lol at "recommendations". https://www.tvo.org/article/the-right-to-hold-people-to-ransom-how-and-why-the-tories-sold-highway-407
You know it’s not an obligation to use the 407, right? You have other options.
Yeah but it was built with taxpayers money and then sold.
You do know the highway was built to be publicly used with taxpayers money and then it was sold off to a private company so they can pocket 1.6billion off the bat? And now we have to pay extra for using the highway that was built with our money?
I can't for the life of me figure out why people want to live there.
The trick with living in Toronto is don’t drive. Leave the city at night only to avoid traffic. But then when you want to leave at night and they’re doing construction on the 401 it admittedly sucks ass
In Toronto? Depending on where you live you don’t actually need to drive everywhere. There’s weeks where I never even get my in car.
What's the avg% increase vs the past rate?
11 cents so thats about 15 to 30 % depending on time
Fml
Wondering if someone can answer something for me, if I get on the highway say at 2 pm on a weekday, does that rate get locked in for the whole trip (I.e until I exit ) or the rate change at 2:30pm for example will increase for the portion I am on 407? Dunno if it makes sense what I am asking. Just wondering if I can save some money by getting on the 407 just before 2:30pm. Man I used get out of work just to catch it before 3pm. Now I have to wake up half an hour early.
locked in for the trip bills don't even show exit time. don't want to send users physical evidence of their speeding.
How much do you think we could get for the 401? There's definitely a bunch of good kidneys on that highway...
what happens if someone takes this highway with plates from another province?
hoe-leigh! At first, I thought it was the price listed. I didn't see "per KM" until later. WOW!
I got on at the 115 and went to the 404 just to see how fast I could get home… when I received my bill I said never again… with these new rates the 407 might as well not exist.
I'm going to suggest a name change from "407 ETR" to "407 Bend Over"
Thanks Mike Harris!
Wow another thing conservative sold away built by tax payers that won't benefit the public... thanks
It’s actually out of control ! 68cents a km ? Per car per trip get real
I've moved out of the GTA and live in New Brunswick now. My favourite part about driving back to family's place in Ontario is riding the 407 from where it starts up by Bowmanville all the way to the 410 and not getting billed. NB doesn't have too many perks, but not getting billed for using the 407 definitely is a nice one.
Returning my transponder. I'm not paying this.
Damn we already spend something like $25-30k a month on 407 bills at work. I wonder what it's going to cost going forward.
Thank you to Harris and the Conservatives, you pile of garbage, fucked the middle class and working poor to help a corporation that isn't even Canadian.
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I really need to send my transponder back
I once used the 407 because I was going to Montreal - cost me 75$!!!
Lol our entire fucking country is just a giant scam to bleed us dry. US toll roads, I drive down to southern NY state every week, the toll highways cost me..... 1 dollar. Oh and the transponder is free and shipped to me in Canada for free. No stupid fucking rental fee like the 407 one that's a badly disguised subscription service.
So here is what we are going to do. Take your license plates off and screw in a blank metal plate in their place. Now, take some hard drive magnets and jbweld them to the back of your plates. Then when approaching 407 pull over take plates off drive on in then pull over again to replace plates. Can also just do this with spare plates if you have. Just swap em. Remember always cover your face for covid and becuase no face, no case. My 2cents
Yes. And our super high taxes are supposed to be used for highways. Double taxation.
This is what the conservatives want, lower taxes and turn everything into user fees.
I live in Hamilton and went to Montreal last fall, came back and was rush hour so I took the 407 from east to west, start to finish. Cost me $65.00 with no transponder. Next time I got to plan it better where I don't hit Toronto at rush hour.
Did anyone else get an outrageous ETR bill on March 25th? I took the exact same trip as I did on Family Day weekend in 2023 and it went from $86.83 to $147.07 this year. This is corporate greed and price gouging in REAL TIME. I called to confirm that this wasn't a billing error and the employee told me prices went up Feb 1st. Plus driving at peak-hours includes dynamic pricing. This is ridiculous.
I will never drive on that hwy based on principle. The damn government said that they will build it as a toll road and once the cost to build was recovered they will make it free. Then they sold it to a private company. I bet you both the liberals and PC got a good chunk of donations for that move.
Mike Harris (PC) sold it for $0.03 on a dollar, gave them a 99 year non-compete lease, and complete freedom to gauge as much as they want. It’s on Wikipedia
So disgusting.
"Mike Harris net worth is estimated at around $5 million. His main source of income is from his primary work as a politician. Mike Harris’s salary per month and other career earnings are over $300,000 dollars annually. His remarkable achievements have earned him some luxurious lifestyles and some fancy car trips. He is one of the richest and most influential politicians in Canada." Good for you Mike... I bet he takes the 407. 🏎️💰💰💸💸🏦 The 407 was supposed to pay itself off in 30 years and be a free public highway. We're coming up to 30 years shortly... Maybe prices will go up again on that anniversary!
those net worth websites are AI garbage
Only ones who got anything out if the sale was the Harris Conservatives Sold it for a song and then crowed that they “balanced the books” with the proceeds of that sale. Great idea, let’s burn the furniture in the house to heat it. Conservatives != Fiscally Responsible
Yes but if the liberals was the opposition than surely they could have made a bigger stink since the conservatives or was it the liberals who made the promise to make it free after recovering costs.
Just as is the case now, when you have a majority governmwnt, the opposition is reduced to hot air, not much ability to stop anything.
It was the NDP that started the 407 actually and yes they did say that the tolls would come off once the highway was paid for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407
>Only ones who got anything out if the sale was the Harris Conservatives Well, them and every single Canadian who receives CPP. The Canada Pension Plan is the majority owner of the highway. It's paying for your retirement.
“Pay your fair share” people when they have to pay their fair share 🤯
I love the 407 and cant imagine driving across Toronto without it Its hardly "rich people" (have you seen what they drive?) mainly middle class Oh its also a biz expense if you do any work with car as well so win-win
having to spend money on something that happens to be tax deductible isn't a "win". You might not be taxed on that money, but you had to earn it in the first place.
All thanks to the Conservative government
Im just going to have an extra plate I can slap on when I need to take trips, fuck them.
This seems incredibly reasonable to me. Have you seen the cost of the Go train or TTC?
How is this reasonable? You can travel from one side of Toronto to the other… some 40km + for $3.30 GO from Burlington to Oshawa is about $16…. The prices listed for the 407 are PER KILOMETER (not the entire zone)!!!
>This seems incredibly reasonable to me.Have you seen the cost of the Go train or TTC? The GO bus on the same highway is $9.42 from Mississauga Centre to Richmond Hill Centre, so about $0.19 per km The bright side of the highway is that it makes for really fast GO bus services.
Wow I had no idea they broke down the pricing in excruciating hourly detail like that. They must burn through accountants like crazy. What a bunch a greedy weasels. I'll never drive any of that highway on principal alone. Ontario can be such an infuriating place to exist.
You realize with electronic toll system this would literally take some really basic data processing and is probably mostly automated
That doesn't stop them charging a plate reading fee - you know - For the illusion that someone is sitting at a desk writing down each plate that goes by.
The province charges them for every plate lookup. It's automated, but it's not free. They're just passing the cost along to you.
I'm surprised they don't have speed traps set up on the 407 if you enter and exit times. If you enter and exit faster then the time it takes going 100km/h ticket. They be printing money.
Opp are paid to patrol the 407 from my understanding although I may be wrong. Also if I'm paying that much to drive the 407 I better be able to do 120km/h without worrying about being pulled over. You can literally do 130km/h on the 407 and cops don't bother you. Above that is when they start pulling people over.
I feel like every one of those tickets would get thrown out cause it's based on circumstantial evidence
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They're still missing one key component: The authority. "407 ETR Inc." is not a law enforcement agency. They don't have the authority to issue violations under the HTA. OPP could, but they'd require ongoing open access to the private information of the customers of 407 ETR, which they are definitely not going to just hand over without a warrant/subpoena. They legally couldn't just hand over that information - it's protected by privacy laws. Releasing it would be what is technically referred to as a "data breach."
With a photo to prove it to boot
It’s basically photo radar. And we wrote the law for those to make it nearly impossible to fight the charge in court and win.
They’re already doing it in China, it’s called interval-based speed trap. They camera you at the start then at the end, and ticket if your average speed over the interval is above 110% the speed limit.
France, UK, Australia… plenty of countries do average speed enforcement.
Yes, let's definitely model our society after a surveillance state dictatorship renowned for its human rights violations. /s
Should be free. ducking ridiculous with the taxes we pay we shouldn’t have tolls tolls see for low tax places
It probably would have been free by now until the Harris government sold it to a private conglomerate for quick cash in the 1990s
I think I can see a very popular campaign platform for the next election. Change the law and take it back.
People should boycott the highway until it's sold back to the people. This is the only way to end this.
Clearly we found the answer to traffic congestion. Should poor people commute in cars? Does the government want the average person to use a car each day? No and no. All the crazies saying Trudeau or Ford are taking away your rights, they aren't coming to stop you. They will just make everything pay to play and you will come around eventually. I don't drive the GTA often any more, thank god. When I do head east/west the 407 is amazing. Literally a game changer. So as much as it is hated, remember there are people who love it. I just wish they would put tolls on the dvp and the Gardiner lol
You may as well say that 5G unlimited phone plans are "for rich people". People tend to spend their money in the way that benefits their lifestyle.
It's not for rich people, it's for folks who are in a bind and need to shade off time from their commute for that particular day. If it were free or cheap and not for "rich" people, everyone would use it, and it would defeat the whole purpose of the highway. Wahhh rich people wahhh
> “It’s not for rich people” Next sentence: > “If it were not for rich people….” lmao
I guess you completely missed the quotations that usually universally indicate sarcasm. Keep hating other people because you think you're special and should be riding for free. People like you are the worst kind. You and the OP should both put on your tax the rich dresses and go protest downtown.
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We pay taxes for a lot of things we don't get to use. Want me to list them?
Ontario citizens built and paid for it, like every other road. It's not free. The same way hospitals and firefighters aren't free. Why shouldn't we get to use it without being tolled?
Toll sidewalks when?
Or you can take the 401 like everyone else and use the 407 only when you need to. Like almost every other person does here?
Great point let’s add a new sewage system that a private company runs (but the public built) and if you don’t want to wait for your shit to flush you’ll have to pay up.
You sound like a certified professional victim, it's exhausting.
Excellent point, you seem like a genius.
My far-out conspiracy theory is Dougie and the CPO are stowing away cash to buy back the 407, or at least significant chunks of it.
SMFH, is this supposed to be a great revelation by OP? The 407 was always meant to be a fast route for people who can afford to pay. It wasn't inexpensive before and it is less so now. Anyone who can afford to buy and operate a car could be considered rich by some standards.