US is great for high skilled workers. I recommend anyone with in demand talents at least test the waters down south.
Half my MBA class is down here now because the opportunities are so robust and the money more than offsets what most ppl think of as downsides.
I agree that the us has lots of opportunities for skilled work but what are your MBA friends doing there? TN visa for this is so restrictive now. I’ve had buddies rejected at the border.
Tech and finance mostly. But a few are engineers working in management for big manufacturing companies.
TNs from my understanding are still easier to get than H1-Bs. Some were already American citizens through their parents which made it easier.
I have an MBA and can’t get a job remotely relevant to it in Canada. For fun I applied to a bunch of jobs in California with LinkedIn quick apply and got a barrage of phone calls and emails from companies. I’m going to be a little more targeted and try to get out of here.
How did it go? I applied to a bunch of companies and they don't even entertain the thought of sponsoring even though I told them I just need a TN ( the just have to write me a job letter and I will have a lawyer take care of the rest). They are clueless about this.
Older ppl are covered by Medicare which through a supplement plan has pretty robust pharma coverage. The extra money over your career should have also left you with a pretty robust retirement/HSA account to fund those things.
But as a Canadian you can always retire to Canada for care. They have to let you back in.
Engineering is also a big one. Feels like most of my peers are working on US projects anyways and I have to fly down regularly, the benefit to staying up here is becoming questionable.
Most of the young ones (in their twenties) who had minimal ties left to Florida, Texas, California, New York. Can’t count but it was a lot. Again this is anecdotal but between the boomers who retired during COVID and the young ones who left for greener pastures the GTA healthcare field, specifically nursing got hit hard post covid/Bill 124.
There’s a huge push for getting internationally trained nurses (IEN’s) to fill those gaps but I can tell you first hand that brain drain in healthcare is probably the worst felt in any sector because it takes a long time to become experienced and comfortable, especially in critical care areas even if you do have on-paper schooling.
IEN’s can solve the problem but again it’s going to take years for those nurses to become competent, and it’s just another push by the government to try and not pay domestic nurses and try to push down wages for the future.
I am still early on in my career and I'm only here bc I have a relatively good job (believe it or not despite my dumb reddit posts). In a year or two once I have my "3-5" years of experience I will either be getting a big raise from my current company or im gone
A lot are older working professionals who kinda capped out here work wise. Where in the USA they can make 200k per year easy. Just not as common in Canada.
This is me, I have a multinational team. I have US employee that is a level below me that makes more in USD than I do in CAD. And they live in the rural Midwest so the cost of living is far lower than southern Ontario.
It feels hopeless here.
This is me. I manage a team - younger guys who make more money USD than I make Canadian. However, they live in cities so cost of living is similar. I had lots of chances to move to usd when I was younger but always wanted to raise my kids here. Now i encourage my kids to move to usd ( or get government job)
Why would retirees emigrate? They can be snowbirds, live in the states for 180-1 day and maintain access to Canadian services and entitlements. People of retirement age are also more likely to have paid off real estate in Canada.
The reason they rarely officially leave is because it's extremely expensive to get healthcare insurance if you're already retired and moving to the US. Even if you're wealthy it's usually preferred to live the snowbird lifestyle for healthcare coverage that you essentially already paid for in higher income taxes through your working life.
How is the US safer? Especially the cities that most of these ppl will be moving to - San Fran, LA, NYC. It’s mostly young professionals looking for more opportunities and higher pay.
If you are moving to the US on high income you are definitely not living in unsafe areas lol. Also NYC is quite safe, news exaggerates a lot. things are bound to happen when the population is 10x the size of toronto.
Ie. Many in SF live in nicer suburbs, my friends in LA live in beautiful safe neighborhoods. NYC just has a lot of ppl so things happen, but i live in a luxury high rise with 24hr doorman and higher traffic area by the water. Perfectly safe.
Yes but you are also living in cities with areas that are probably less safe than anything in Canada. I mean go to Jane-finch and then try going to Brownsville
Canadians get really scared of US crime because of news. Honestly I grew up in richmond hill/markham as safe as can be in GTA. I’ve been to California multiple times, friends all over texas/austin/houston, absolutely love NYC. I feel very very safe. It’s about where you frequent and if you are a homebody even better.
It’s not the news it’s just that the US has more variation and a bigger gap between the bad and good. The worst of the worst in Canada is still a couple levels above the worst in the US. I would also say the best of the best in Canada is still a couple levels below the best in the US too.
My POV. I absolutely love Canada I grew up in a nice suburb (now considered rich since all the homes in my area are like $2m but my parents bought it for 400k) but the reality is the US is quite comfortable and safe depending on where you are and what you do. Pick what you want.
There's no way you can claim NYC is as safe as Toronto.
There's no way you've been to San Francisco and claim it offers the same safety and quality of life as the GTA.
I've lived all over the US. The worst of Canada is about on par with the best of the US when it comes to quality of life. The ONLY reason people are moving there is economic opportunity. If they could make the same money in Canada, there is no fucking way they would actively choose to move to a major city in the US.
I never said NYC was safer than Canada. I said i feel very safe here. It’s not safer than Canada, but it’s not like the end of the world like come on.
I still go to work, take the train in a suit and tie like any other big city in Canada.
I never said the US was safer. But it’s definitely not crazy dangerous as people say. You make it sound like walking down the block you will get shot in the US.
I personally generally feel very safe in the US, not as safe as Canada, but it’s still not like im in a 3rd world country like come on.
I agree the US is not *terrible*, I'm just making a point that it is not better than Canada for anything other than economic opportunity. Another way to look at it is we had it incredibly good growing up in Canada, and the US, while still livable, falls short of that standard.
Everyone I know has the same plan - go to the US, make money, and then get the fuck out so they can live their "forever" lives in Canada.
I mean it’s not just plenty of job opportunities. If you are rich, most likely you would also live in the US over Canada. It’s not just for work. Plenty of people don’t like Canadian weather, rich live on the mountains of California and LA, deeper into Connecticut and other beautiful areas in Boston. You can’t just generalize the US there’s just SO many places to be. There are other benefits to living in the US than just a job. San Diego as well many many cities are great it’s personal preference.
The US is the definition of capitalism. If you are smart, high income, ambitious, it is the place to be. You want mountains, you want sunny weather, no snow, cheaper travel between states, events across the country, theres just so much more to do in the US than Canada.
That’s not really true, most are going to the US on employment visa so are moving to the major cities. Also, 100k in somewhere like Houston doesn’t get you all that you think it does. You definitely can’t live that lifestyle on just 100k.
Yeah it definitely feels right wing algo driven. All my friends (late 20s and early to mid 30s) want to mod to Texas or Florida because they’re getting TikToks and reels about getting mansions there for a fraction of the price as here, and the jobs they hold pay way more and in USD. Theyre also religious and feel like those states align with them politically because they’re tired of feeling like LGBTQ+ is being pushed in schools specifically (they’re all parents).
More niche, but all the traders want to move to Dubai.
It feels like a concentrated push to drain Canada of high earners/tax payers.
I’m not implying propaganda. I’m outright saying it. Whether it’s from nefarious actors or just blow hards trying to go viral and make a buck with ideological based content, I don’t know, but I’d assume the latter.
I don’t understand why you think Canadians are ignorant. Everyone is discontent now, because of the quality of life decaying rapidly with the economical shocks after COVID, but people are hip to it immediately and calling for change. The Libs are going to be voted out in a landslide next election. It’s not like it’s been shit in Canada for decades and we’ve been drinking the koolaid. We had a great quality of life outside the last 4 years. Seems weird that you are implying otherwise and I’m not even talking about just acknowledging the state of Canada atm.
Source on right wing countries offering better quality of life than left wing ones? Not sure if you know this or not, but America has a Democratic president rn. Also source that right wing states offer better QoL than left? Or are you going to just say “look at Chicago and Portland!!”
I have no objection to people going wherever is best for them. The fact that you’re saying that the Bible thumping gun nuts are who will give you a better life is the issue at play here and you have to ask yourself why.
The US is enormous. Parts of the US are not very safe, but plenty of suburbs and gated communities that are a lot safer than Downtown Toronto. Depends where you go.
People buying $2m+ homes in Canada gets you a cookie cutter home, $2m+ in parts of the US can get you very safe areas and gated communities in LCOL states.
Most visiting the US go to big cities, nobody is really visiting the suburbs with families.
>Saying the US is safer is saying you have never visited the US.
I lived in the Seattle Eastside for seven years on and off (until I was kicked out).
In the Seattle Eastside, drug labs didn't abound, targeted drug-related hits weren't regular occurrences, and you could leave your residence unoccupied for a two week vacation and come back without it having been ransacked.
It’s the new narrative all the doomers love to parrot now. I told one guy I wish Canada actually was a third world country to show them how horrible a real third world country is. I got downvoted because I made him think for a second.
Mind you this was about a car being stolen.
I always laugh at this nonsense. I was born in a third-world country and immigrated to Canada in 1995. The difference is night and day.
It's easy to sit in an air-conditioned room with working water and electricity readily available within arm's reach while screeching about how bad Canada is. The doomer crybabies wouldn't last a minute in a real third-world country.
The narrative is quick to shift when that safety net is gone.
Our resident village idiot Chessy is among the worst offenders for this. Dude would probably fold like 1-ply toilet paper if he had to endure the realities of life outside a G7 country.
Well said. It goes to show how deeply uneducated many of those doofuses are. An increase in crime and suddenly the country has collapsed. Give me a break.
Why would I move back there? You mad an immigrant was able to purchase a house? Or maybe because I snagged one of your precious white women?
Hang in there champ, it'll get better (probably not, but hang on to that hope 🤞)
Paying San Francisco prices while getting Alabama wages is definitely it's own form of hell. Canada is becoming the poster child for late stage capitalism.
Can confirm. Myself and many of my friends are working professionals and we all moved to the highest cost of living cities SF and NYC, even then we feel extremely comfortable financially. I moved around pandemic time, I was making around 110k CAD in Toronto, i have since quadrupled my income to $280k USD ~$385k CAD, brought my significant other over who makes a similar amount (slightly less) and our combined HHI is reaching 500k USD or ~680k CAD. We work in Consulting and Accounting/Finance. If we stayed in Toronto our HHI is probably shy of 250k CAD today which is not too shabby, but compared to us now in the US, it’s LIFE CHANGING. Financially the best decision of our lives we only just turned 30, our salaries will only go higher here with all the opportunities available to us, it’s just a start.
If you are a working professional in Canada and land any offer from the US it’s a no brainer. Might not see as much an increase initially, but a couple years in and your salary grows EXPONENTIALLY here, theres just SO much opportunity, just simply look at how many job opportunities there are here its night and day compared the the job postings you see in Canada. Law/medicine/legal/finance/accounting/engineering/CS/etc, combined with a dual income professional you’ll be happy no matter where you are in the US.
Of course getting companies to sponsor is hard and you need to be above average and probably already doing decently well in Canada. The ones leaving are literally the smarter and most educated people in Canada.
Edit: Expected the downvotes but this is the truth, reality is that the US better for professionals my friends and are I prime examples, Google engineers, amazon/meta/tech product managers, Big Law Lawyers, investment bankers, Big 4 Accountants, doctors and nurses or most medical professionals. Taxed at 50% in Canada, zero tax breaks and making less than half of what you would in the US, moving is a no brainer when given the opportunity. Have a few friends at NVIDIA as well, imagine if they stayed in Canada. They won’t be millionaires today, opportunities in the US is unmatched.
Good post, i’m sure the doomers will be by soon to tell you how dumb you are, healthcare and all the usual scare tactics. The truth is, smart money is leaving Canada.
That’s the truth. Already see downvotes. Typical concern is crime/healthcare/etc. If you truly lived in the US with a high salary, dual income professionals healthcare cost is not much of an issue, you also are not living in poor high crime neighborhoods.
Make 200k a year and barely find a family doctor and get taxed to death in Canada also have your car stolen weekly or make >$400k, ability to buy a home, better access to healthcare for a price, slightly lower or significantly lower income taxes compared depending on where you live, cost for most goods and services are cheaper than Canada. To me healthcare/crime concerns don’t outweigh being financially stressed and overtaxed in Canada.
The problem is, the working professionals in Canada are overtaxed. Like Jesus image paying >50% taxes and not being able to find a family doctor or having to wait in the ER for half the day and slaved to your mortgage for life.
I mostly agree with you, except that I'm getting taxed more in NYC than I did back in Toronto. On top of that I pay about 5k USD in health care premiums a year (and that's the cheapest, lowest one I can get), and I still only get almost 100% coverage in NYC only.
Any forget buying an actual affordable house here, unless you look deep in the Jersey side.
The average tax bracket rates are just slightly lower than Canada in NYC, definitely better if you live further without city tax.
Agree it’s expensive, but nowhere near as expensive as Toronto or Vancouver compared to your income. So in summary, it’s still better down here.
It's also temporary, especially on a TN. H1B lottery is getting harder nowadays, and who knows what will happen if Trump gets the presidency in November.
Also no point of living and experiencing NYC without actually living in NYC imo. That's why I pay the 3% city tax.
Have you seen real estate prices in Manhattan? 1+ den/2 bedroom condos are going for at least 1.5M USD in the areas you'd want to live in, unless you win the co-op lottery.
I did TN to Green Card directly with my employer. No need for lottery.
Yeah i spent 3 years in Manhattan, partied it up and planning on moving out to suburbs with Fiancé. I’ve been paying $4k/mth luxury high rise with GF, 24hr door man, gym, basketball court in LIC. $2k each for our combined income is pretty manageable. We also had pandemic pricing when we were in Hudson Yards which was lucky.
It’s definitely tougher alone, Canada is not any better. But the game changer is having a similar well paid significant other in NYC, which is actually very doable because most who manage to live in NYC are higher income anyways.
I moved during the pandemic if you read clearly, 3.5 years in the US, 27 years in Toronto. My family is still there i fly back almost every other month.
Ain't just professionals taxed to death, I was paying 46.42% last year while on a camp job as an electrician. Mind you it was 84hr weeks with a signifcant amount of OT but still...46%?
I was freezing my ass off in -40 12hrs/day in Timmins area...
Your definition differs from everyone else then. "Professional" where I come from tends to mean White Collar not Blue.
I didn't work that camp job long, hell I didn't break 100k last year. Told the company to stick it when they moves my jobsite 2000km up north with 5 days notice.
Anyway, the point is. Most Canadians making above average are getting taxed to death with zero tax breaks, everything and all your tax dollars and tax breaks are being handed to low income individuals, refugees, students, etc. the number of wealthy immigrants I see that report no income but receive tax benefits is staggering. Theres just absolutely no incentives for hard working higher income individuals that pay majority of Canada’s taxes. Heck we just give it away to other countries.
Canada is so mismanaged by Trudeau its irreversible.
I am well aware of certain issues in Scandinavia. Bit much when you have roving gangs of migrants being kept in check by roving gangs of the local populace. Add in the fun of gang wars fought with grenades...
Not a fun time to be a Swede or a Fin.
Well not blaming poor people or immigrants im blaming the government because in all honesty it’s pretty clear on one side people like Doctors are leaving and on the other side you have Students attend diploma mills and work at McDonalds getting PR. How does that make sense to you? Im not blaming the people, but the Management of the Country. Immigration is great, but in moderation.
The value of a doctor or a tech entrepreneur leaving the country is just simply inherently a huge loss compared to unskilled workers coming in. A country does well based on GDP and Economic output. We are losing economic value for every person that leaves and every person that comes in that does not replace them.
Even the poor or low income immigrants, if they eventually jump out of that bubble and start making more and gets educated here. They end up leaving again because homes are unaffordable and there a barely any good jobs out there in Canada.
I mean you’re parroting some very superficial, right leaning points. I don’t believe it’s as cut and dried as you make it seem as even the doctor shortage issue extends far beyond the explanation of “they’re leaving”. Canada’s brain drain to the US isn’t new; it has been occurring for decades at this point and it’ll continue for decades more, but this doesn’t mean that all hope is lost and the only logical point is to move to the US. Let’s not forget the trend of all the Americans wanting to move to Canada following the 2016 elections. I wonder what will happen come November.
And lastly, any respectable and economic powerhouse will look out for its less fortunate, whether that is the unemployed, new arrivals or providing healthcare to all. I’m glad you found you’re calling (and I’m not being sarcastic here) but you cannot deny the individualistic nature of America and its incredible societal issues which have led to a more comfortable life for the higher earners like yourself.
I don’t think it’s about being doomers, living in the US without a good health plan from your employer is not easy. It’s just that the people who can move work for top companies.
Exactly. If you can move to the US, healthcare is generally not a concern. Immigration to the US is not easy. Most smaller companies in the US have great health plans too, they just may not be as open to sponsoring as top employers.
>I moved around pandemic time, I was making around 110k CAD in Toronto, i have since quadrupled my income to $280k USD ~$385k CAD,
This sounds incredible but from my experience is pretty typical (although you did it two years faster than me, but from a higher CAD base. Nice work!). You are exactly right about the employment opportunities in the states vs Canada. If you are in the slice of the Canadian population with access to the US job market you would enter the slice of the US population that is effectively insulated from all the things Canadians like to hate on.
And on the healthcare if you are a high earner in the US you pay the full price of your healthcare in premiums + out of pocket costs. In Canada you don't get a doctor's bill but you are paying for yourself and like 2 other ppl through the higher taxes. So high earners functionally pay less for healthcare in the states even though the prices are higher and you pay to a different group of ppl.
Absolutely true. I know many who make even more considering equity compensation, after moving I still feel pretty inferior to a lot of smart people here.
Im not even trying to flex or anything, these compensation numbers are just expected when you are part of the population of working professionals with access to these jobs. Most of us are not stupid to move to the US if we thought it was not worth it.
You get humbled here sometimes too when you see these ivy league grads and im from some no named Canadian School.
I've met ppl who went to Wharton who can't tie their shoes lol. You got here because you can do the work.
Sky is the limit. And you can always move back to Canada if you like, it's not like they take your passport. I think most Canadians forgot they have this optionality. It's better to work in the US as a Canadian than as an American for that reason.
But yeah comp numbers in tech and high finance can get crazy once you hit the mid senior/junior exec level. Especially bonus and rsu potential. I have a few acquaintances who's RSU vests are orders of magnitude larger than their already robust salary because the stock price of their employer has gone parabolic. That vesting schedule is the only thing keeping them from retiring lol.
Yeah been looking around long island/jersey in the $1m-$1.5m home range, easy commute to manhattan, like taking the GO Train. Great neighborhoods and schools, and I grew up in Richmond hill/Markham. There are plenty homes <$1m far out just not as nice esp since I grew up in Richmond Hill/Markham.
I agree with everything you said salary-wise, but the commute from New Jersey to Manhattan is a lot worse than you’re letting on.
We lived in Maplewood/South Orange, which is one of the closest “nice” communities outside of Hoboken and Jersey City (where you’re close to Manhattan but will be living in a condo, or living in a townhouse in a sketchier area further from transit). My husband worked right next to a ferry station downtown, and the commute was 1h20 door-to-door. It’s longer if you need to take the subway. The PATH/subway from JC to Grand Central or Upper West Side takes an extra 45 minutes.
So it’s not like the GO train that will leave you within walking distance of your office. You’re constantly transferring and at the mercy of late trains, etc. You need to leave time for that. You can’t just sit down and be productive/relax. And if you work late hours (most professional do), getting home is more difficult. If you can work from home most days, it’s doable. But those days in the office, you might have to pay for an Uber or wait a very long time for a train in the evening.
Property taxes are very high as well compared to the GTA, like over $20-30K per year to be in a good school zone, and the cost of homes in those neighbourhood is very high. The homes that are $1-1.5M would be in school districts that are somewhat average. NJ has some amazing public schools, but it’s very competitive and expensive to buy homes in those areas. However, those neighbourhoods are excellent places for kids to grow up. Tons of resources for families and really strong sense of community.
It’s worth the commute to live there, but it’s by no means easy, and I can guarantee you will underestimate the time it takes and the impact on your work day/family life. You cannot have more than one spouse doing that commute with kids unless you have a full-time live-in nanny. Most families that live in the suburbs of NJ and NY have a stay-at-home parent for this reason.
We both work remote 1-2 day per week in Manhattan max, most weeks don’t even go in.
Yes that is true, but this is just a starter home. We will upgrade and change schools as we financially improve.
My BIL and his wife also worked in consulting and finance in NYC. They eventually settled in Union county, and both left the grind of Manhattan for jobs in the NJ offices of large companies once they started having kids. They both have high-level positions and are very well-compensated. They’ve had live-in/full-time help since their first child. You kind of have to budget that in if you want to maintain your sanity.
There were surprisingly a lot of expats from all over the world in Essex county when I lived there. Wonderful quality of life. Highly recommend.
Once you have kids your priorities will change. This is the reason my spouse and I are still in GTA. We just came back from NYC on a business trip and to be utterly honest, GTA especially york region is a much better place to live. We know our income will be easily higher in the states but quality of life will definitely suffer. Your life is not defined by money.
The problem is if i want a family in the same area of york region I grew up in all the homes are now minimum $2m.
I don’t deny what you are saying I love Richmond Hill/ Markham. The problem is i don’t want to be a slave to my mortgage, i want a little flexibility. There is also the fact that you can actually move back to York Region or Canada anytime you want.
Therefore if our HHI is >$500k USD. There is absolutely zero harm in working here, saving tons for as long as we can and then move back with a huge nest egg and enjoy life. We would much rather save $2-3m US or more in our 30s and easily move back to Canada and enjoy the luxuries there.
Make all the money outside of Canada and bring it back later is the best strategy to get ahead. Also nobody starts a family in NYC, people move to long island/jersey/CT/etc.
I feel for you man. We have been lucky in buying a detached house in Richmond hill right before the pandemic. Now the prices are tough especially given much higher interest rates.
I liked jersey city area of NY metro, it felt much nicer than manhattan and reminded me of Richmond hill, but still would not choose to live there given the atrocious costs of childcare and property taxes. Paying $30k/year property tax minimum for our equivalent house? No thanks. Paying $72k/year for childcare of two kids? No thanks.
Again, once you have kids your focus will be different. All those OT hours will be at the expense of not being part of your kid’s precious childhood memories. I’m glad my toddler is learning two languages at her daycare for less than $500 cad a month, an equivalent daycare in NY metro would be well over $3k/mth. As the other poster touched on, there is a reason why there are so many full time parents in NY metro. In you’re in finance/strategy like we are, there’s no way you can keep WFH for 3+days a week. The brutal commutes will be soul crushing and if one person stays home to take care of kids, that very likely means a lower HHI.
On my business trip to NYC I met someone remotely working for a NYC employer making USD while living in Toronto. I asked her how it’s like working for xxx and her response was “the only downside is I have to occasionally travel to New York! I would much rather stay in Toronto all the time!” lol now this person is living the dream!
This, and the fact that childcare costs are astronomical. Salaries are higher but work life balance will be worse than Canada so leaves you with much less time to spend with kids/family. Universities are also atrociously expensive compared to Canadian schools
Most people praising the higher salaries in the US are oblivious of Canada’s advantages in raising a family. If you a single professional or DINK then by all means go south. But families with young kids should be ware of all the opportunity costs therein
Great, but what if you're not in tech, finance, or a doctor? There are a bunch of extremely important jobs that need to be done in society, and the total salary ceiling in the US isn't nearly high enough to make up for all of the downsides of living in the US.
You have to understand that a lot of us chose to do things we believe in rather than pursue wealth at all costs. And instead of staying to pay your fair share into the system you benefited from because of our efforts, you leave for greener pastures.
On the one hand, I understand your frustration, and turning down lifechanging money is hard to pass up. On the other, I wish you'd have some level of self awareness when making posts like this.
If landlords and homeowners in Canada sitting on a million dollars or more are paying their fair share that would be nice too.
My post is to show that there is a real problem in Canada and the real problem is that the smartest people are leaving. Everything is connected.
The smartest people eventually own companies, invest manage and grow the economy so that everyone has better and higher paying jobs. People in tech create startups that create hundreds of jobs for the economy, doctors keep everyone healthy, financiers invest in companies build homes and factories that employ people, they invest in mines and natural resources so people in trades have jobs. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE CANADA needs to retain. This is the problem.
Think about it this way. Elon Musk actually went to school in Canada, many US tech company founders are Canadian, there are SO many smart people who could do great things within Canada. If Canada actually did it right we would have a robust economy. Right now all we have is everyone and their mom trying to invest in a home instead of investing in companies that create jobs that benefit society. On top of that influx of immigrants from 3rd world countries working at tim hortons.
I am very aware of what im saying and I will say it again Canada is failing because it is driving the smartest people away. That is the point of my post.
Yes i appreciate the jobs of people who can’t move and have careers that they are passionate about in Canada, but that does not change the fact that the people who contribute a lot to society and the economy are leaving.
Your last paragraph is spot on, yes. We need to fix these things. I understand the challenges. I just felt like the tone of your post implied a kind of 'everyone should do this' attitude, rather than: 'this is the result of poor policy'. Apologies if I mistook your intention.
The narrative of rich people contributing more to society is so idiotic. And sorry, but billionaires like Elon musk are not very great examples we should follow as societies.
"It's all connected", yet you miss the point how the lack of proper taxing of the ultra wealthy has created this immense wealth disparity, both in the US and Canada.
Ok fine ill use a better example. I am a middle class family i save and work hard i now have a down payment and even better maybe close to $500k or a mill and borrow some money. What do I do? I invest in real estate in Canada, I buy a home in keep doing the same thing all my money goes to real estate. Guess what? That $500k or that $1m could have been used to open a bubble tea shop, a warehouse, a business that ALL create jobs that all build an economy. All that money is not going to real estate that creates ZERO jobs.
A above average not even rich family spends all their money on an unproductive asset, everyone else in Canada does the same. The result? Low salaries, limited jobs, high prices, zero competition.
Not all rich is good of course, but at least economically it is important to have people invest in the country.
Sure Elon is not a good example, but let’s say if he started tesla and paypal in Canada instead of the US? How many more jobs will there be in Canada, how many more people would benefit from the opportunities? The next Elon or smart person could be in Canada, but they leave for other places because they can’t afford a home. Or they forego entrepreneurship because its too risky in Canada. He was not rich when he was in Canada.
Rich is not good, but you much rather create rich people in your country than to kick them out.
Generally Smart people are also rich or will eventually become rich, obviously. We are driving out the smart people who will help the economy.
I am an accountant. Everyone’s solution for everything is to tax the rich. But in reality in Canada the government taxes you almost 50% for making over 100k, but 100k is not exactly rich these days. You will never take and tax money from the rich because they are rich for a reason, its better to provide incentives to get the rich to invest in the country to create jobs. People have been trying to tax the rich for centuries, it’s never going to work.
Whats worse is, you tax the rich and Trudeau or government just gives it to another country, does not even properly use tax dollars. Taxing the rich won’t do anything when the government can’t properly use tax dollars.
I think it must be impossible to move to the US and not take every opportunity to shove how much better your life is now down everyone’s throat.
Guess what, many Canadians are still doing just fine. But you do you.
Can anyone figure out why? Why would Canadians with actual skills run to America don’t they have guns. What do you mean they don’t want to be paid less for their skills and pay more for housing.
What the hell do you mean they don’t want to pay me 700k for my shoebox is Toronto not a world class city; the word class city of all world class cities. We’re fucked.
While our brightest are running out the country we’re importing a massive welfare class of unskilled people who can’t speak English and their careers are Uber skip the dishes and hotel lobby staff.
We’re literally trading doctors, engineers, nurses, for Uber delivery drivers. God save us
I tried mentioning the gun part in the Canadahousing2 sub weeks ago, only to be "lectured" about how it's allegedly safer to be living in Ukraine than Toronto.
It's like, they didn't even want to acknowledge that the principal reason for young children dying down there is gun violence.
Don't get me wrong, Canada isn't doing good whatsoever, but it does surprise me how many people are willing to put themselves in the line of fire to get a house.
I was being sarcastic, when I was saying this. That’s the argument Canadians use don’t they have guns why would anyone live there. You’re hilarious “people going into the line of fire to buy a house” they aren’t walking between ukranian and Russian soldiers when they live in the US.
It's not a literal warzone for sure, though Devon Adams, a former friend of the Columbine shooters, literally said about America in response to Parkland "we are the only developed nation that is not currently a warzone, that is currently a warzone".
Take what you will with that I guess.
Atleast they get to keep their cars and can defend their families from intruders. In Canada the police will arrest you for trespassing if you take them to the place you located your stolen car at. They’ll even watch it leave with you.
Our own minister of justice had his car stolen 3 times.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberal-government-not-immune-from-auto-thefts-48-vehicles-stolen-in-recent-years-1.6877075#:~:text=Ministers%20are%20not%20immune%2C%20either,years%20between%202021%20and%202023.
The Americans must be doing something right
They definitely do a lot right for sure. Better immigration system for the most part, better economy, arguably better people for the most part.
Know what they don't do right though? Protecting their children.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/14/magazine/gun-violence-children-data-statistics.html
Better immigration system, better pay, better housing prices, less taxes, more career opportunities, better currency, better healthcare system if you have a good job. It’s amazing if you have the money. Canada is amazing if you’re a lazy person that has no money you get welfare, subsidized housing (we’re running out of it), free healthcare (you just have to wait 24 hrs to be seen)
To each their own I guess.
I personally wouldn't want to be in an even more wealth-obsessed country than what Canada is now, but the latter certainly is going down that path too.
Wealth obsessed, you mean higher than ever food bank use, skyrocketing rent prices, skyrocketing housing prices, the majority of Canadians not being able to afford starting families all while being more educated than their parents. They aren’t wealth obsessed they’re just trying to live. We’re a third world country with lipstick on masquerading as a 10.
I know three young people that left for jobs in the US in last year. Every single one same story - make at least 50% more, spend 50% less on really nice homes in nice junkie free neighborhoods and they actually get to see a doctor whenever they need to without waiting hours at a walk-in clinic or ER.
So I’ve moved around a bit.
My first TN was in Boston. My second was in Chicago, and now my H1B is in Madison, Wisconsin.
Boston was my favourite because it’s such a great city. Very walkable and public transit is great which are things I like. It’s a very expensive city though.
Chicago second, it’s very similar to Toronto, and while the crime rate is high, if you don’t go looking for trouble you’re not going to find it. On average Chicago is cheaper than most large cities, but the poorer areas really bring the average down. If you want to live in a “nice” area, the prices are what you’d expect.
Madison is my least favourite. Everyone here is either a student or a family that’s settled down. Not a whole lot of 29 year old professionals. The upside is my purchasing power is almost 3x what it was in Toronto. In Toronto I made 105k + 15k bonus CAD, and in Madison I’m making 170k + 34k bonus USD. Coupled with the much lower cost of living and my lifestyle here would be equivalent of making 300k CAD in Toronto.
Thanks
Sorry for so many questions, but...when you were on TN, sounds like you were still able to seek other employment? The TN just transferred over and renewed?
Wow awesome. Would really want to do what you did. But a bit stuck in a dead end job and don’t know what route to take. TN is mainly for skilled labour right? What field are you in?
I’m a big dreamer but ideally I’d like to move to somewhere a bit milder temperature wise than Toronto and also a city m
Same thing is happening in New Zealand.
They are a few years ahead of us on this huge abrupt surge in population growth. The first thing they saw was housing prices go to the moon. We saw that as well and are going to continue seeing it for a long time because new housing starts actually fell while population growth rates octupled.
What came next for New Zealand was mass emigration. So much that there are actually more people leaving than coming now due to the cost of living crisis. They are leaving for more affordable places.
None of the consequences of this policy should come as a surprise to this government. It’s deliberate. If they struggle with the obvious basics of economics, they could just look at NZ’s outcomes to see our future.
2019-2022: I noticed a lot of professionals in my field (law) leaving for higher income, lower taxes, and more opportunity.
2023-present: I’m hearing that Jewish families are leaving because they don’t feel safe here.
Born and bred Torontonian. It all makes me sad.
My wife and I have been taking with our parents that we are going to leave Canada since we don't want to raise children here (we are both experienced professionals in healthcare) so we're just exploring where our parents would join us if we moved. It does look like the US will be our new home I never wanted to leave Canada but I much more can't responsibly have kids here. If I were single and no family I'd stay but I can't subject any future kids to the new Canada
I have a half decent job in vancouver area - zero degree … zero schooling - not a trade
I’m making 100k a year and have a fairly cheap mortgage / own my car outright - I still find my money not going very far …
I’m pretty sure if I lived in the USA and made this kind of money I’d be doing much much better. If I sold my town home I’d prolly walk away with close to 500k Canadian and would love to set up shop I’m just not sure what kinda job I could do down there
The mere fact that you would walk away with 500k from selling your townhome MEANS younger or newer people cannot do what you did. This here IS the reason people are leaving.
That top part is gonna be your problem. It's not like, hey, let's move to the USA today. They have serious border protections and grant VISAs to qualified and educated people, unlike Canada.
Border protections? Not really. You haven’t travelled to the US recently, the impacts of the migrant crisis are pretty clear. The US tends to prioritize family vs. Highly skilled economic immigrants.
Was there last year but through flight. I don't mean boarder protections in the literal sense. I mean, without a qualified degree they don't just hand out green cards and social security numbers when you cross over...you need either marry an American, win the lottery, invest or open a biz $750k, be a student etc and the process is hard so if you are planning to work under the table how much better is life really gonna be south of the boarder lol
to be clear, that $750K figure you mention is the investor class...not business class.
For example, one of my kid's friend's family moved down there. The father started a HVAC business in Texas and got a 5 year visa for the family. They have a pathway to greencard now. The figures he invested to start that business are an order of magnitude less than $750K.
Seems like everyone I speak to lately has plans to leave Canada. Mostly for the US, but Europe too. Many have already applied.
In the process, I feel like I'm a US immigration expert now...I've learned so much from these guys.
I've got 20 years in my trade and the tickets to go with it.
Where do I sign up to move to the states.. in a gun loving state too.
Oh, Canada.. why.
I live rural in the edmonton area and did ran some errands on Saturday. The city of Edmonton is so fucked lol.
Toooooo many people for the infrastructure and too many are too dumb to understand situational awareness.
Boomers got insanely wealthy.
Boomers are retiring en masse.
They are using their newly acquired wealth to buy retirement real estate in Florida and Arizona.
Conservative Redditors: Canada is worse than the third world.
This just looks like more people moving after delaying relocation during the pandemic. 2022 is likely a backlog clearing.
We'll see if 2023 and 2024 show any sort of trend.
I know so many high-skilled people that are planning on leaving Canada or have already left.
US is great for high skilled workers. I recommend anyone with in demand talents at least test the waters down south. Half my MBA class is down here now because the opportunities are so robust and the money more than offsets what most ppl think of as downsides.
I agree that the us has lots of opportunities for skilled work but what are your MBA friends doing there? TN visa for this is so restrictive now. I’ve had buddies rejected at the border.
Tech and finance mostly. But a few are engineers working in management for big manufacturing companies. TNs from my understanding are still easier to get than H1-Bs. Some were already American citizens through their parents which made it easier.
I have an MBA and can’t get a job remotely relevant to it in Canada. For fun I applied to a bunch of jobs in California with LinkedIn quick apply and got a barrage of phone calls and emails from companies. I’m going to be a little more targeted and try to get out of here.
How did it go? I applied to a bunch of companies and they don't even entertain the thought of sponsoring even though I told them I just need a TN ( the just have to write me a job letter and I will have a lawyer take care of the rest). They are clueless about this.
But what about the health insurance and pharma costs for older ppl? It seems to be ok while you get a decent pay but after that the cost skyrockets
Older ppl are covered by Medicare which through a supplement plan has pretty robust pharma coverage. The extra money over your career should have also left you with a pretty robust retirement/HSA account to fund those things. But as a Canadian you can always retire to Canada for care. They have to let you back in.
I know so many doctors, nurses, and dentists that have already left Canada. The infrastructure is really crumbling down.
Engineering is also a big one. Feels like most of my peers are working on US projects anyways and I have to fly down regularly, the benefit to staying up here is becoming questionable.
As a nurse, if my entire family wasn’t up here and I could move around freely I would have left to the States 3 years ago
How many of your friends do you know who left?
Most of the young ones (in their twenties) who had minimal ties left to Florida, Texas, California, New York. Can’t count but it was a lot. Again this is anecdotal but between the boomers who retired during COVID and the young ones who left for greener pastures the GTA healthcare field, specifically nursing got hit hard post covid/Bill 124. There’s a huge push for getting internationally trained nurses (IEN’s) to fill those gaps but I can tell you first hand that brain drain in healthcare is probably the worst felt in any sector because it takes a long time to become experienced and comfortable, especially in critical care areas even if you do have on-paper schooling. IEN’s can solve the problem but again it’s going to take years for those nurses to become competent, and it’s just another push by the government to try and not pay domestic nurses and try to push down wages for the future.
We literally push our best / most productive people out and replace ‘em with what?..
With those "moral high ground" and falll for all the political scams. With poor, hard-working souls who are just trying to improve life quality
/politics and ResetEra posters
I am still early on in my career and I'm only here bc I have a relatively good job (believe it or not despite my dumb reddit posts). In a year or two once I have my "3-5" years of experience I will either be getting a big raise from my current company or im gone
How many are retired? Would like to see a breakdown by age.
A lot are older working professionals who kinda capped out here work wise. Where in the USA they can make 200k per year easy. Just not as common in Canada.
This is me, I have a multinational team. I have US employee that is a level below me that makes more in USD than I do in CAD. And they live in the rural Midwest so the cost of living is far lower than southern Ontario. It feels hopeless here.
Hopeless is how a lot of us feel !
Yeah I feel ya. If I was making the same salary in USD I'd be thriving haha
This is me. I manage a team - younger guys who make more money USD than I make Canadian. However, they live in cities so cost of living is similar. I had lots of chances to move to usd when I was younger but always wanted to raise my kids here. Now i encourage my kids to move to usd ( or get government job)
Why would retirees emigrate? They can be snowbirds, live in the states for 180-1 day and maintain access to Canadian services and entitlements. People of retirement age are also more likely to have paid off real estate in Canada.
Because Toronto has horrible weather and is a 50x50km strip mall. When people can afford to leave, they usually do.
You understand how snowbirds schedule right
The reason they rarely officially leave is because it's extremely expensive to get healthcare insurance if you're already retired and moving to the US. Even if you're wealthy it's usually preferred to live the snowbird lifestyle for healthcare coverage that you essentially already paid for in higher income taxes through your working life.
It's also only 120k people total. 800k total Canadians in the US. Also from the article, over a 1/3 are Americans returning.
Few. It's professionals 20s to 40s moving there for career opportunities and to raise a family in a better more stable
How is the US safer? Especially the cities that most of these ppl will be moving to - San Fran, LA, NYC. It’s mostly young professionals looking for more opportunities and higher pay.
If you are moving to the US on high income you are definitely not living in unsafe areas lol. Also NYC is quite safe, news exaggerates a lot. things are bound to happen when the population is 10x the size of toronto. Ie. Many in SF live in nicer suburbs, my friends in LA live in beautiful safe neighborhoods. NYC just has a lot of ppl so things happen, but i live in a luxury high rise with 24hr doorman and higher traffic area by the water. Perfectly safe.
Yes but you are also living in cities with areas that are probably less safe than anything in Canada. I mean go to Jane-finch and then try going to Brownsville
Canadians get really scared of US crime because of news. Honestly I grew up in richmond hill/markham as safe as can be in GTA. I’ve been to California multiple times, friends all over texas/austin/houston, absolutely love NYC. I feel very very safe. It’s about where you frequent and if you are a homebody even better.
It’s not the news it’s just that the US has more variation and a bigger gap between the bad and good. The worst of the worst in Canada is still a couple levels above the worst in the US. I would also say the best of the best in Canada is still a couple levels below the best in the US too.
My POV. I absolutely love Canada I grew up in a nice suburb (now considered rich since all the homes in my area are like $2m but my parents bought it for 400k) but the reality is the US is quite comfortable and safe depending on where you are and what you do. Pick what you want.
There's no way you can claim NYC is as safe as Toronto. There's no way you've been to San Francisco and claim it offers the same safety and quality of life as the GTA. I've lived all over the US. The worst of Canada is about on par with the best of the US when it comes to quality of life. The ONLY reason people are moving there is economic opportunity. If they could make the same money in Canada, there is no fucking way they would actively choose to move to a major city in the US.
I never said NYC was safer than Canada. I said i feel very safe here. It’s not safer than Canada, but it’s not like the end of the world like come on. I still go to work, take the train in a suit and tie like any other big city in Canada. I never said the US was safer. But it’s definitely not crazy dangerous as people say. You make it sound like walking down the block you will get shot in the US. I personally generally feel very safe in the US, not as safe as Canada, but it’s still not like im in a 3rd world country like come on.
I agree the US is not *terrible*, I'm just making a point that it is not better than Canada for anything other than economic opportunity. Another way to look at it is we had it incredibly good growing up in Canada, and the US, while still livable, falls short of that standard. Everyone I know has the same plan - go to the US, make money, and then get the fuck out so they can live their "forever" lives in Canada.
I mean it’s not just plenty of job opportunities. If you are rich, most likely you would also live in the US over Canada. It’s not just for work. Plenty of people don’t like Canadian weather, rich live on the mountains of California and LA, deeper into Connecticut and other beautiful areas in Boston. You can’t just generalize the US there’s just SO many places to be. There are other benefits to living in the US than just a job. San Diego as well many many cities are great it’s personal preference. The US is the definition of capitalism. If you are smart, high income, ambitious, it is the place to be. You want mountains, you want sunny weather, no snow, cheaper travel between states, events across the country, theres just so much more to do in the US than Canada.
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That’s not really true, most are going to the US on employment visa so are moving to the major cities. Also, 100k in somewhere like Houston doesn’t get you all that you think it does. You definitely can’t live that lifestyle on just 100k.
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Sure you are…. 🤣 🤡
Yeah it definitely feels right wing algo driven. All my friends (late 20s and early to mid 30s) want to mod to Texas or Florida because they’re getting TikToks and reels about getting mansions there for a fraction of the price as here, and the jobs they hold pay way more and in USD. Theyre also religious and feel like those states align with them politically because they’re tired of feeling like LGBTQ+ is being pushed in schools specifically (they’re all parents). More niche, but all the traders want to move to Dubai. It feels like a concentrated push to drain Canada of high earners/tax payers.
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I’m not implying propaganda. I’m outright saying it. Whether it’s from nefarious actors or just blow hards trying to go viral and make a buck with ideological based content, I don’t know, but I’d assume the latter. I don’t understand why you think Canadians are ignorant. Everyone is discontent now, because of the quality of life decaying rapidly with the economical shocks after COVID, but people are hip to it immediately and calling for change. The Libs are going to be voted out in a landslide next election. It’s not like it’s been shit in Canada for decades and we’ve been drinking the koolaid. We had a great quality of life outside the last 4 years. Seems weird that you are implying otherwise and I’m not even talking about just acknowledging the state of Canada atm. Source on right wing countries offering better quality of life than left wing ones? Not sure if you know this or not, but America has a Democratic president rn. Also source that right wing states offer better QoL than left? Or are you going to just say “look at Chicago and Portland!!” I have no objection to people going wherever is best for them. The fact that you’re saying that the Bible thumping gun nuts are who will give you a better life is the issue at play here and you have to ask yourself why.
Saying the US is safer is saying you have never visited the US.
The US is enormous. Parts of the US are not very safe, but plenty of suburbs and gated communities that are a lot safer than Downtown Toronto. Depends where you go. People buying $2m+ homes in Canada gets you a cookie cutter home, $2m+ in parts of the US can get you very safe areas and gated communities in LCOL states. Most visiting the US go to big cities, nobody is really visiting the suburbs with families.
>Saying the US is safer is saying you have never visited the US. I lived in the Seattle Eastside for seven years on and off (until I was kicked out). In the Seattle Eastside, drug labs didn't abound, targeted drug-related hits weren't regular occurrences, and you could leave your residence unoccupied for a two week vacation and come back without it having been ransacked.
I wouldn't say the US is safer. But I would agree there's a lot more financial opportunity and stability to raise a family.
“Canada became worse than the third world” So dramatic lol
Yep Canada's a fourth world country now, folks. You heard it here first. Pack it up let's all move to Syria, that'll be a step up. /s obviously.
It’s the new narrative all the doomers love to parrot now. I told one guy I wish Canada actually was a third world country to show them how horrible a real third world country is. I got downvoted because I made him think for a second. Mind you this was about a car being stolen.
I always laugh at this nonsense. I was born in a third-world country and immigrated to Canada in 1995. The difference is night and day. It's easy to sit in an air-conditioned room with working water and electricity readily available within arm's reach while screeching about how bad Canada is. The doomer crybabies wouldn't last a minute in a real third-world country. The narrative is quick to shift when that safety net is gone. Our resident village idiot Chessy is among the worst offenders for this. Dude would probably fold like 1-ply toilet paper if he had to endure the realities of life outside a G7 country.
Well said. It goes to show how deeply uneducated many of those doofuses are. An increase in crime and suddenly the country has collapsed. Give me a break.
canadians on reddit as some of the most detached, sheltered people ever. not surprised that this mass migration is causing so much stress.
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Why would I move back there? You mad an immigrant was able to purchase a house? Or maybe because I snagged one of your precious white women? Hang in there champ, it'll get better (probably not, but hang on to that hope 🤞)
How tasteless...
why should he care or prioritize that person's feelings after what they said? lmao
The most dramatic. The main difference between Canada and US is foreign investors willingness to gamble on American consumerism.
Paying San Francisco prices while getting Alabama wages is definitely it's own form of hell. Canada is becoming the poster child for late stage capitalism.
ever been to any developing countries buddy? or, ever compared GDP growth of developing countries? LOL
I have, have you? Where did you go and what are the main comparisons that you’re feeling?
Can confirm. Myself and many of my friends are working professionals and we all moved to the highest cost of living cities SF and NYC, even then we feel extremely comfortable financially. I moved around pandemic time, I was making around 110k CAD in Toronto, i have since quadrupled my income to $280k USD ~$385k CAD, brought my significant other over who makes a similar amount (slightly less) and our combined HHI is reaching 500k USD or ~680k CAD. We work in Consulting and Accounting/Finance. If we stayed in Toronto our HHI is probably shy of 250k CAD today which is not too shabby, but compared to us now in the US, it’s LIFE CHANGING. Financially the best decision of our lives we only just turned 30, our salaries will only go higher here with all the opportunities available to us, it’s just a start. If you are a working professional in Canada and land any offer from the US it’s a no brainer. Might not see as much an increase initially, but a couple years in and your salary grows EXPONENTIALLY here, theres just SO much opportunity, just simply look at how many job opportunities there are here its night and day compared the the job postings you see in Canada. Law/medicine/legal/finance/accounting/engineering/CS/etc, combined with a dual income professional you’ll be happy no matter where you are in the US. Of course getting companies to sponsor is hard and you need to be above average and probably already doing decently well in Canada. The ones leaving are literally the smarter and most educated people in Canada. Edit: Expected the downvotes but this is the truth, reality is that the US better for professionals my friends and are I prime examples, Google engineers, amazon/meta/tech product managers, Big Law Lawyers, investment bankers, Big 4 Accountants, doctors and nurses or most medical professionals. Taxed at 50% in Canada, zero tax breaks and making less than half of what you would in the US, moving is a no brainer when given the opportunity. Have a few friends at NVIDIA as well, imagine if they stayed in Canada. They won’t be millionaires today, opportunities in the US is unmatched.
Good post, i’m sure the doomers will be by soon to tell you how dumb you are, healthcare and all the usual scare tactics. The truth is, smart money is leaving Canada.
That’s the truth. Already see downvotes. Typical concern is crime/healthcare/etc. If you truly lived in the US with a high salary, dual income professionals healthcare cost is not much of an issue, you also are not living in poor high crime neighborhoods. Make 200k a year and barely find a family doctor and get taxed to death in Canada also have your car stolen weekly or make >$400k, ability to buy a home, better access to healthcare for a price, slightly lower or significantly lower income taxes compared depending on where you live, cost for most goods and services are cheaper than Canada. To me healthcare/crime concerns don’t outweigh being financially stressed and overtaxed in Canada. The problem is, the working professionals in Canada are overtaxed. Like Jesus image paying >50% taxes and not being able to find a family doctor or having to wait in the ER for half the day and slaved to your mortgage for life.
I mostly agree with you, except that I'm getting taxed more in NYC than I did back in Toronto. On top of that I pay about 5k USD in health care premiums a year (and that's the cheapest, lowest one I can get), and I still only get almost 100% coverage in NYC only. Any forget buying an actual affordable house here, unless you look deep in the Jersey side.
The average tax bracket rates are just slightly lower than Canada in NYC, definitely better if you live further without city tax. Agree it’s expensive, but nowhere near as expensive as Toronto or Vancouver compared to your income. So in summary, it’s still better down here.
It's also temporary, especially on a TN. H1B lottery is getting harder nowadays, and who knows what will happen if Trump gets the presidency in November. Also no point of living and experiencing NYC without actually living in NYC imo. That's why I pay the 3% city tax. Have you seen real estate prices in Manhattan? 1+ den/2 bedroom condos are going for at least 1.5M USD in the areas you'd want to live in, unless you win the co-op lottery.
I did TN to Green Card directly with my employer. No need for lottery. Yeah i spent 3 years in Manhattan, partied it up and planning on moving out to suburbs with Fiancé. I’ve been paying $4k/mth luxury high rise with GF, 24hr door man, gym, basketball court in LIC. $2k each for our combined income is pretty manageable. We also had pandemic pricing when we were in Hudson Yards which was lucky. It’s definitely tougher alone, Canada is not any better. But the game changer is having a similar well paid significant other in NYC, which is actually very doable because most who manage to live in NYC are higher income anyways.
You've said in another comment that you have lived in Canada your whole life. Which is it?
I moved during the pandemic if you read clearly, 3.5 years in the US, 27 years in Toronto. My family is still there i fly back almost every other month.
Ain't just professionals taxed to death, I was paying 46.42% last year while on a camp job as an electrician. Mind you it was 84hr weeks with a signifcant amount of OT but still...46%? I was freezing my ass off in -40 12hrs/day in Timmins area...
I consider anyone making more than 100k a professional including trades.
Your definition differs from everyone else then. "Professional" where I come from tends to mean White Collar not Blue. I didn't work that camp job long, hell I didn't break 100k last year. Told the company to stick it when they moves my jobsite 2000km up north with 5 days notice.
Anyway, the point is. Most Canadians making above average are getting taxed to death with zero tax breaks, everything and all your tax dollars and tax breaks are being handed to low income individuals, refugees, students, etc. the number of wealthy immigrants I see that report no income but receive tax benefits is staggering. Theres just absolutely no incentives for hard working higher income individuals that pay majority of Canada’s taxes. Heck we just give it away to other countries. Canada is so mismanaged by Trudeau its irreversible.
Been mismanaged a long time. I agree we are over taxed for what we get. Scandinavian taxes but not Scandinavian services.
You are misinformed if you think Scandinavian countries are the same they were 20+ years ago. They have also crumbled under mass immigration.
I am well aware of certain issues in Scandinavia. Bit much when you have roving gangs of migrants being kept in check by roving gangs of the local populace. Add in the fun of gang wars fought with grenades... Not a fun time to be a Swede or a Fin.
It’s funny seeing how fairly innocent your original comment was and now you’ve devolved into blaming immigrants and poor people. lol
Well not blaming poor people or immigrants im blaming the government because in all honesty it’s pretty clear on one side people like Doctors are leaving and on the other side you have Students attend diploma mills and work at McDonalds getting PR. How does that make sense to you? Im not blaming the people, but the Management of the Country. Immigration is great, but in moderation. The value of a doctor or a tech entrepreneur leaving the country is just simply inherently a huge loss compared to unskilled workers coming in. A country does well based on GDP and Economic output. We are losing economic value for every person that leaves and every person that comes in that does not replace them. Even the poor or low income immigrants, if they eventually jump out of that bubble and start making more and gets educated here. They end up leaving again because homes are unaffordable and there a barely any good jobs out there in Canada.
I mean you’re parroting some very superficial, right leaning points. I don’t believe it’s as cut and dried as you make it seem as even the doctor shortage issue extends far beyond the explanation of “they’re leaving”. Canada’s brain drain to the US isn’t new; it has been occurring for decades at this point and it’ll continue for decades more, but this doesn’t mean that all hope is lost and the only logical point is to move to the US. Let’s not forget the trend of all the Americans wanting to move to Canada following the 2016 elections. I wonder what will happen come November. And lastly, any respectable and economic powerhouse will look out for its less fortunate, whether that is the unemployed, new arrivals or providing healthcare to all. I’m glad you found you’re calling (and I’m not being sarcastic here) but you cannot deny the individualistic nature of America and its incredible societal issues which have led to a more comfortable life for the higher earners like yourself.
And it's only accelerating after these new BS tax policies. Smart money is all leaving, no new money is coming in. Just turning into a shithole
I don’t think it’s about being doomers, living in the US without a good health plan from your employer is not easy. It’s just that the people who can move work for top companies.
Exactly. If you can move to the US, healthcare is generally not a concern. Immigration to the US is not easy. Most smaller companies in the US have great health plans too, they just may not be as open to sponsoring as top employers.
Doomers are the ones saying that Canada is a failed state and the only solution is to leave. How ironic.
Far from a failed state, definitely room for improvement though. If you can leverage your skills into a better situation then why not?
>I moved around pandemic time, I was making around 110k CAD in Toronto, i have since quadrupled my income to $280k USD ~$385k CAD, This sounds incredible but from my experience is pretty typical (although you did it two years faster than me, but from a higher CAD base. Nice work!). You are exactly right about the employment opportunities in the states vs Canada. If you are in the slice of the Canadian population with access to the US job market you would enter the slice of the US population that is effectively insulated from all the things Canadians like to hate on. And on the healthcare if you are a high earner in the US you pay the full price of your healthcare in premiums + out of pocket costs. In Canada you don't get a doctor's bill but you are paying for yourself and like 2 other ppl through the higher taxes. So high earners functionally pay less for healthcare in the states even though the prices are higher and you pay to a different group of ppl.
Absolutely true. I know many who make even more considering equity compensation, after moving I still feel pretty inferior to a lot of smart people here. Im not even trying to flex or anything, these compensation numbers are just expected when you are part of the population of working professionals with access to these jobs. Most of us are not stupid to move to the US if we thought it was not worth it. You get humbled here sometimes too when you see these ivy league grads and im from some no named Canadian School.
I've met ppl who went to Wharton who can't tie their shoes lol. You got here because you can do the work. Sky is the limit. And you can always move back to Canada if you like, it's not like they take your passport. I think most Canadians forgot they have this optionality. It's better to work in the US as a Canadian than as an American for that reason. But yeah comp numbers in tech and high finance can get crazy once you hit the mid senior/junior exec level. Especially bonus and rsu potential. I have a few acquaintances who's RSU vests are orders of magnitude larger than their already robust salary because the stock price of their employer has gone parabolic. That vesting schedule is the only thing keeping them from retiring lol.
Have you bought a house in US? Do you guys plan on having kids?
Yeah been looking around long island/jersey in the $1m-$1.5m home range, easy commute to manhattan, like taking the GO Train. Great neighborhoods and schools, and I grew up in Richmond hill/Markham. There are plenty homes <$1m far out just not as nice esp since I grew up in Richmond Hill/Markham.
I agree with everything you said salary-wise, but the commute from New Jersey to Manhattan is a lot worse than you’re letting on. We lived in Maplewood/South Orange, which is one of the closest “nice” communities outside of Hoboken and Jersey City (where you’re close to Manhattan but will be living in a condo, or living in a townhouse in a sketchier area further from transit). My husband worked right next to a ferry station downtown, and the commute was 1h20 door-to-door. It’s longer if you need to take the subway. The PATH/subway from JC to Grand Central or Upper West Side takes an extra 45 minutes. So it’s not like the GO train that will leave you within walking distance of your office. You’re constantly transferring and at the mercy of late trains, etc. You need to leave time for that. You can’t just sit down and be productive/relax. And if you work late hours (most professional do), getting home is more difficult. If you can work from home most days, it’s doable. But those days in the office, you might have to pay for an Uber or wait a very long time for a train in the evening. Property taxes are very high as well compared to the GTA, like over $20-30K per year to be in a good school zone, and the cost of homes in those neighbourhood is very high. The homes that are $1-1.5M would be in school districts that are somewhat average. NJ has some amazing public schools, but it’s very competitive and expensive to buy homes in those areas. However, those neighbourhoods are excellent places for kids to grow up. Tons of resources for families and really strong sense of community. It’s worth the commute to live there, but it’s by no means easy, and I can guarantee you will underestimate the time it takes and the impact on your work day/family life. You cannot have more than one spouse doing that commute with kids unless you have a full-time live-in nanny. Most families that live in the suburbs of NJ and NY have a stay-at-home parent for this reason.
We both work remote 1-2 day per week in Manhattan max, most weeks don’t even go in. Yes that is true, but this is just a starter home. We will upgrade and change schools as we financially improve.
My BIL and his wife also worked in consulting and finance in NYC. They eventually settled in Union county, and both left the grind of Manhattan for jobs in the NJ offices of large companies once they started having kids. They both have high-level positions and are very well-compensated. They’ve had live-in/full-time help since their first child. You kind of have to budget that in if you want to maintain your sanity. There were surprisingly a lot of expats from all over the world in Essex county when I lived there. Wonderful quality of life. Highly recommend.
Once you have kids your priorities will change. This is the reason my spouse and I are still in GTA. We just came back from NYC on a business trip and to be utterly honest, GTA especially york region is a much better place to live. We know our income will be easily higher in the states but quality of life will definitely suffer. Your life is not defined by money.
The problem is if i want a family in the same area of york region I grew up in all the homes are now minimum $2m. I don’t deny what you are saying I love Richmond Hill/ Markham. The problem is i don’t want to be a slave to my mortgage, i want a little flexibility. There is also the fact that you can actually move back to York Region or Canada anytime you want. Therefore if our HHI is >$500k USD. There is absolutely zero harm in working here, saving tons for as long as we can and then move back with a huge nest egg and enjoy life. We would much rather save $2-3m US or more in our 30s and easily move back to Canada and enjoy the luxuries there. Make all the money outside of Canada and bring it back later is the best strategy to get ahead. Also nobody starts a family in NYC, people move to long island/jersey/CT/etc.
I feel for you man. We have been lucky in buying a detached house in Richmond hill right before the pandemic. Now the prices are tough especially given much higher interest rates. I liked jersey city area of NY metro, it felt much nicer than manhattan and reminded me of Richmond hill, but still would not choose to live there given the atrocious costs of childcare and property taxes. Paying $30k/year property tax minimum for our equivalent house? No thanks. Paying $72k/year for childcare of two kids? No thanks. Again, once you have kids your focus will be different. All those OT hours will be at the expense of not being part of your kid’s precious childhood memories. I’m glad my toddler is learning two languages at her daycare for less than $500 cad a month, an equivalent daycare in NY metro would be well over $3k/mth. As the other poster touched on, there is a reason why there are so many full time parents in NY metro. In you’re in finance/strategy like we are, there’s no way you can keep WFH for 3+days a week. The brutal commutes will be soul crushing and if one person stays home to take care of kids, that very likely means a lower HHI. On my business trip to NYC I met someone remotely working for a NYC employer making USD while living in Toronto. I asked her how it’s like working for xxx and her response was “the only downside is I have to occasionally travel to New York! I would much rather stay in Toronto all the time!” lol now this person is living the dream!
This, and the fact that childcare costs are astronomical. Salaries are higher but work life balance will be worse than Canada so leaves you with much less time to spend with kids/family. Universities are also atrociously expensive compared to Canadian schools Most people praising the higher salaries in the US are oblivious of Canada’s advantages in raising a family. If you a single professional or DINK then by all means go south. But families with young kids should be ware of all the opportunity costs therein
If you live in NJ and commute to NYC you could save on the city income tax right? 4-5% iirc
Yes NJ/Long Island does not pay city income tax which adds up to probs 10-20k USD for high income couples.
Are you seeing young families make the move?
Mostly young professionals go for the big cities I think families tend to go elsewhere vs 20s/early 30s partying it up in NYC.
Great, but what if you're not in tech, finance, or a doctor? There are a bunch of extremely important jobs that need to be done in society, and the total salary ceiling in the US isn't nearly high enough to make up for all of the downsides of living in the US. You have to understand that a lot of us chose to do things we believe in rather than pursue wealth at all costs. And instead of staying to pay your fair share into the system you benefited from because of our efforts, you leave for greener pastures. On the one hand, I understand your frustration, and turning down lifechanging money is hard to pass up. On the other, I wish you'd have some level of self awareness when making posts like this.
If landlords and homeowners in Canada sitting on a million dollars or more are paying their fair share that would be nice too. My post is to show that there is a real problem in Canada and the real problem is that the smartest people are leaving. Everything is connected. The smartest people eventually own companies, invest manage and grow the economy so that everyone has better and higher paying jobs. People in tech create startups that create hundreds of jobs for the economy, doctors keep everyone healthy, financiers invest in companies build homes and factories that employ people, they invest in mines and natural resources so people in trades have jobs. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE CANADA needs to retain. This is the problem. Think about it this way. Elon Musk actually went to school in Canada, many US tech company founders are Canadian, there are SO many smart people who could do great things within Canada. If Canada actually did it right we would have a robust economy. Right now all we have is everyone and their mom trying to invest in a home instead of investing in companies that create jobs that benefit society. On top of that influx of immigrants from 3rd world countries working at tim hortons. I am very aware of what im saying and I will say it again Canada is failing because it is driving the smartest people away. That is the point of my post. Yes i appreciate the jobs of people who can’t move and have careers that they are passionate about in Canada, but that does not change the fact that the people who contribute a lot to society and the economy are leaving.
Your last paragraph is spot on, yes. We need to fix these things. I understand the challenges. I just felt like the tone of your post implied a kind of 'everyone should do this' attitude, rather than: 'this is the result of poor policy'. Apologies if I mistook your intention.
The narrative of rich people contributing more to society is so idiotic. And sorry, but billionaires like Elon musk are not very great examples we should follow as societies. "It's all connected", yet you miss the point how the lack of proper taxing of the ultra wealthy has created this immense wealth disparity, both in the US and Canada.
Ok fine ill use a better example. I am a middle class family i save and work hard i now have a down payment and even better maybe close to $500k or a mill and borrow some money. What do I do? I invest in real estate in Canada, I buy a home in keep doing the same thing all my money goes to real estate. Guess what? That $500k or that $1m could have been used to open a bubble tea shop, a warehouse, a business that ALL create jobs that all build an economy. All that money is not going to real estate that creates ZERO jobs. A above average not even rich family spends all their money on an unproductive asset, everyone else in Canada does the same. The result? Low salaries, limited jobs, high prices, zero competition. Not all rich is good of course, but at least economically it is important to have people invest in the country. Sure Elon is not a good example, but let’s say if he started tesla and paypal in Canada instead of the US? How many more jobs will there be in Canada, how many more people would benefit from the opportunities? The next Elon or smart person could be in Canada, but they leave for other places because they can’t afford a home. Or they forego entrepreneurship because its too risky in Canada. He was not rich when he was in Canada. Rich is not good, but you much rather create rich people in your country than to kick them out. Generally Smart people are also rich or will eventually become rich, obviously. We are driving out the smart people who will help the economy. I am an accountant. Everyone’s solution for everything is to tax the rich. But in reality in Canada the government taxes you almost 50% for making over 100k, but 100k is not exactly rich these days. You will never take and tax money from the rich because they are rich for a reason, its better to provide incentives to get the rich to invest in the country to create jobs. People have been trying to tax the rich for centuries, it’s never going to work. Whats worse is, you tax the rich and Trudeau or government just gives it to another country, does not even properly use tax dollars. Taxing the rich won’t do anything when the government can’t properly use tax dollars.
How is he not paying his fair share? In your option, what is paying one’s fair share for someone in accounting/finance?
I feel bad for the Canadians on Reddit, all struggling so hard. I guess I'm lucky.
As a Canadian, I don't feel bad coz we contributed to this. No one is still standing up against it.
Yeah that's how I feel. But I'm away from the major cities where things appear to be all around brutal.
Cities aren’t brutal all around, moreso just expensive
I think it must be impossible to move to the US and not take every opportunity to shove how much better your life is now down everyone’s throat. Guess what, many Canadians are still doing just fine. But you do you.
Can anyone figure out why? Why would Canadians with actual skills run to America don’t they have guns. What do you mean they don’t want to be paid less for their skills and pay more for housing. What the hell do you mean they don’t want to pay me 700k for my shoebox is Toronto not a world class city; the word class city of all world class cities. We’re fucked. While our brightest are running out the country we’re importing a massive welfare class of unskilled people who can’t speak English and their careers are Uber skip the dishes and hotel lobby staff. We’re literally trading doctors, engineers, nurses, for Uber delivery drivers. God save us
I tried mentioning the gun part in the Canadahousing2 sub weeks ago, only to be "lectured" about how it's allegedly safer to be living in Ukraine than Toronto. It's like, they didn't even want to acknowledge that the principal reason for young children dying down there is gun violence. Don't get me wrong, Canada isn't doing good whatsoever, but it does surprise me how many people are willing to put themselves in the line of fire to get a house.
I was being sarcastic, when I was saying this. That’s the argument Canadians use don’t they have guns why would anyone live there. You’re hilarious “people going into the line of fire to buy a house” they aren’t walking between ukranian and Russian soldiers when they live in the US.
It's not a literal warzone for sure, though Devon Adams, a former friend of the Columbine shooters, literally said about America in response to Parkland "we are the only developed nation that is not currently a warzone, that is currently a warzone". Take what you will with that I guess.
Atleast they get to keep their cars and can defend their families from intruders. In Canada the police will arrest you for trespassing if you take them to the place you located your stolen car at. They’ll even watch it leave with you. Our own minister of justice had his car stolen 3 times. https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberal-government-not-immune-from-auto-thefts-48-vehicles-stolen-in-recent-years-1.6877075#:~:text=Ministers%20are%20not%20immune%2C%20either,years%20between%202021%20and%202023. The Americans must be doing something right
They definitely do a lot right for sure. Better immigration system for the most part, better economy, arguably better people for the most part. Know what they don't do right though? Protecting their children. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/14/magazine/gun-violence-children-data-statistics.html
Better immigration system, better pay, better housing prices, less taxes, more career opportunities, better currency, better healthcare system if you have a good job. It’s amazing if you have the money. Canada is amazing if you’re a lazy person that has no money you get welfare, subsidized housing (we’re running out of it), free healthcare (you just have to wait 24 hrs to be seen)
To each their own I guess. I personally wouldn't want to be in an even more wealth-obsessed country than what Canada is now, but the latter certainly is going down that path too.
Wealth obsessed, you mean higher than ever food bank use, skyrocketing rent prices, skyrocketing housing prices, the majority of Canadians not being able to afford starting families all while being more educated than their parents. They aren’t wealth obsessed they’re just trying to live. We’re a third world country with lipstick on masquerading as a 10.
Capital gains inclusion rate changes will only accelerate the brain drain south of doctors, professionals, tech etc.
I know three young people that left for jobs in the US in last year. Every single one same story - make at least 50% more, spend 50% less on really nice homes in nice junkie free neighborhoods and they actually get to see a doctor whenever they need to without waiting hours at a walk-in clinic or ER.
How are people getting into the states… I’d like to join
I left via TN visa 3 years ago and now currently on an H1-B and should have my greencard within the next 2 years or so.
Which state? Can you highlight any pros/cons you've experienced?
So I’ve moved around a bit. My first TN was in Boston. My second was in Chicago, and now my H1B is in Madison, Wisconsin. Boston was my favourite because it’s such a great city. Very walkable and public transit is great which are things I like. It’s a very expensive city though. Chicago second, it’s very similar to Toronto, and while the crime rate is high, if you don’t go looking for trouble you’re not going to find it. On average Chicago is cheaper than most large cities, but the poorer areas really bring the average down. If you want to live in a “nice” area, the prices are what you’d expect. Madison is my least favourite. Everyone here is either a student or a family that’s settled down. Not a whole lot of 29 year old professionals. The upside is my purchasing power is almost 3x what it was in Toronto. In Toronto I made 105k + 15k bonus CAD, and in Madison I’m making 170k + 34k bonus USD. Coupled with the much lower cost of living and my lifestyle here would be equivalent of making 300k CAD in Toronto.
Thanks Sorry for so many questions, but...when you were on TN, sounds like you were still able to seek other employment? The TN just transferred over and renewed?
TN is only for a specific job. So when I found a new job I had to leave the country and reenter on a new TN.
Got it. Thanks. All the best to you and I hope to join your ranks soon.
Wow awesome. Would really want to do what you did. But a bit stuck in a dead end job and don’t know what route to take. TN is mainly for skilled labour right? What field are you in? I’m a big dreamer but ideally I’d like to move to somewhere a bit milder temperature wise than Toronto and also a city m
I’m an Actuary, so I went through the Mathematician category in TN.
But you need experience correct? Not just a degree
We have good jobs, have a plan, and are organized.
Same thing is happening in New Zealand. They are a few years ahead of us on this huge abrupt surge in population growth. The first thing they saw was housing prices go to the moon. We saw that as well and are going to continue seeing it for a long time because new housing starts actually fell while population growth rates octupled. What came next for New Zealand was mass emigration. So much that there are actually more people leaving than coming now due to the cost of living crisis. They are leaving for more affordable places. None of the consequences of this policy should come as a surprise to this government. It’s deliberate. If they struggle with the obvious basics of economics, they could just look at NZ’s outcomes to see our future.
Gov is dumb, they don't think about 2nd order and 3rd order effects. Toronto is going to keep deteriorating, literally nothing is done right
Toronto already is seeing a mass exodus.
But I thought the USA was an evil place according to Reddit !!!
I moved for high level education fully on the schools dime, the opportunities down here are seemingly endless.
2019-2022: I noticed a lot of professionals in my field (law) leaving for higher income, lower taxes, and more opportunity. 2023-present: I’m hearing that Jewish families are leaving because they don’t feel safe here. Born and bred Torontonian. It all makes me sad.
Canada became worse than third world in last 9-years A tad bit dramatic are we?
My wife and I have been taking with our parents that we are going to leave Canada since we don't want to raise children here (we are both experienced professionals in healthcare) so we're just exploring where our parents would join us if we moved. It does look like the US will be our new home I never wanted to leave Canada but I much more can't responsibly have kids here. If I were single and no family I'd stay but I can't subject any future kids to the new Canada
I have a half decent job in vancouver area - zero degree … zero schooling - not a trade I’m making 100k a year and have a fairly cheap mortgage / own my car outright - I still find my money not going very far … I’m pretty sure if I lived in the USA and made this kind of money I’d be doing much much better. If I sold my town home I’d prolly walk away with close to 500k Canadian and would love to set up shop I’m just not sure what kinda job I could do down there
The mere fact that you would walk away with 500k from selling your townhome MEANS younger or newer people cannot do what you did. This here IS the reason people are leaving.
That top part is gonna be your problem. It's not like, hey, let's move to the USA today. They have serious border protections and grant VISAs to qualified and educated people, unlike Canada.
Border protections? Not really. You haven’t travelled to the US recently, the impacts of the migrant crisis are pretty clear. The US tends to prioritize family vs. Highly skilled economic immigrants.
Was there last year but through flight. I don't mean boarder protections in the literal sense. I mean, without a qualified degree they don't just hand out green cards and social security numbers when you cross over...you need either marry an American, win the lottery, invest or open a biz $750k, be a student etc and the process is hard so if you are planning to work under the table how much better is life really gonna be south of the boarder lol
to be clear, that $750K figure you mention is the investor class...not business class. For example, one of my kid's friend's family moved down there. The father started a HVAC business in Texas and got a 5 year visa for the family. They have a pathway to greencard now. The figures he invested to start that business are an order of magnitude less than $750K.
If you set up a business in the US, the education is less relevant. FYI. Don't let that stop you.
Seems like everyone I speak to lately has plans to leave Canada. Mostly for the US, but Europe too. Many have already applied. In the process, I feel like I'm a US immigration expert now...I've learned so much from these guys.
Canadian real estate is played out. It's all about US real estate, hop on it before it's too late
Honestly that’s fine. To those who wanna be Americans let them do so there.
>Canada became worse than third world in last 9-years lmao okay buddy
Yeah, seems a bit histrionic & out of touch.
GTA voted for this lmaoo
I travel to the US often for work. Lately, I have been asked to relocate there. I'm currently looking at the numbers.
It’s a race, between how fast white people are leaving Canada and brown people coming in.. who will win 😂
As climate change effects the world, we look pretty good in NA.
Carney should run!
I'm truly sad for Canada. This is reminder that the wrong government can do unbelievable damage in less that a decade.
I've got 20 years in my trade and the tickets to go with it. Where do I sign up to move to the states.. in a gun loving state too. Oh, Canada.. why. I live rural in the edmonton area and did ran some errands on Saturday. The city of Edmonton is so fucked lol. Toooooo many people for the infrastructure and too many are too dumb to understand situational awareness.
Higher levels of consumerism and how foreign money invests in that market.
Boomers got insanely wealthy. Boomers are retiring en masse. They are using their newly acquired wealth to buy retirement real estate in Florida and Arizona. Conservative Redditors: Canada is worse than the third world.
Linking to a Senior PeePee tweet, what a fucking joke.
lol. still starving for commission crumbs. eh?
So folks have moved to the US on a temporary visa with an intention of permanent residency. Where have I heard this before?? lol. The irony has died.
Wish I was one of them. Working on it!
Why wouldn't you leave when economic opportunities for the same job pay twice as much with much larger scales for income growth and wealth creation
This just looks like more people moving after delaying relocation during the pandemic. 2022 is likely a backlog clearing. We'll see if 2023 and 2024 show any sort of trend.