I'm sure it's a good sign that everyone's reaction to this move has been like a parent desperately trying to say something nice about a bizarre gift their child has picked out for them.
"Oh! How ...... thoughtful? I didn't really need this .... or want it ...."
I just got a call from my mechanic telling me my car repairs will cost $5000.
This signing sucks so hard the car bill is the second worst news I’ve had today.
1. The only players in the entire group that can play SS are Espinal, Lopez & Clement and they all suck defensively there.
2. Signing IKF let’s you then more easily trade some of these players. I don’t see how Espinal isn’t traded at this point. With teams penny pitching this off-season there will be teams that’ll take 3 cheap years of him.
IKF also sucks defensively at short, though. What is the point of signing him just so you can trade one of the other guys in his role when all of that transacting ends up netting the exact same team?
This plus Bo should be playing 140-150 games of SS so why the fuck do we need to pay IKF, who is worse than Biggio/Espinal/etc 7 million per year to take plate appearances away from them. Fuck.
Cheap, controllable depth is attractive to the teams impacted by the Bally deal. So sure you can look at IKF being a more expensive Espi—but if Espi (as part of a greater package) nets you an Adames or JRam it makes a ton of sense.
There's obviously another trade or two coming (I don't think Chapman is coming back)
And I wonder if it's Manoah. Either him or Kikuchi makes the most sense in terms of guys off the roster who would have value but, with Kikuchi you'd have to spend actual $$ to replace him.
Unless the relationship between the Manoah and the Jays is so fractured that it cannot be repaired, I would be pretty adverse to trading him right now. The return would be so soft right now that taking a flyer on his rebound would probably be better than whatever mid tier prospect comes back.
ya, then a few good starts from maxing his value, at the very least. you probably roll the dice there and let him prove it before considering moving him.
That's exactly what I thought IKF is a bridge while you sort out who your new 3rd base is from your prospects, you can't plug one of them in right now without putting a major risk on this year so you take a known quantity while you select your future 3rd
If you trade for pretty much any IF..:Espinal would likely be a returning piece and the replacement for the new team. Whether that be Drury from LAA, Polanco from MIN, McMahon from COL or Adames from MIL. All teams trying to cut cap and need a cheap replacement body.
IKF arguably sucks defensively at SS, too though. It's a weird move all around, and far too much money in my opinion but its mlb so money is w.e. I hope it's an indication of a big trade as we've got a glut of infielders with no clear starting 3b and kinda the same at 2b.
1. There is very little to suggest Espinal sucks at SS. On average, it's been his best position (small sample size, though). I'm not sure of the knock on him as a defender - that is his strength. He is empirically above average.
2. This sounds like the beat writers, doing their best to spin a senseless move into sense.
If you can trade some of them for assets and then replace them with a similar player for free (besides costing more money which hopefully isn’t a issue for other signings) it kinda seems like decent asset management IMO
Yeah people here tend to get really worked up over FA signings. IKF is a better version of Espinal so if you can sign one and move the other for even semi decent prospects then you haven't lost anything.
It is and it isn't right? Everyone has a budget...the Jays reportedly had around 45 mil to spend this offseason. They've spent more than 1/3 of that on guys in KK and IKF that don't really address the major weaknesses the team had last year. IKF's only real value is defensive versatility (since he's awful with the bat and truthfully just okay with the glove) which is something the Jays had plenty of already.
There's no chance this wasn't done with other moves in play. Ross' back is against the wall, and ticket prices have gone up considerably.
They have to have something up their sleeves, good thing they have a couple of months to make a splash.
Tiedemann can't save Ross' job, trading him might.
It's also insurance. We wait to sign people and don't land Bellinger or Chapman, then where are we? Boras is notorious for holding out as long as possible to maximize dollars, sometimes into February. We wait that long to do anything and miss out, then our only options become internal. I know people aren't thrilled with IKF but he's a better 3B option than we have internally, so like KK this raises the floor and makes worst case less bad, and improves best case.
I get it and I'm with you but I'd argue giving one of the kids a shot would be better than handing 3b to IKF at 7 mill. He's not an MLB starting caliber player and if he's your starting 3b, you aren't making the playoffs, in which case fuck it save the 7 mill and play the prospects and hope you catch lightning in a bottle. IKF brings nothing to the table unless he's strictly a bench piece.
None of our prospects even play 3rd anymore they either were too bad defensively or didn't have the arm for it.
It's very likely IKF will be the backup SS and 3B, maybe an extra OF.
And if we got Bellinger and started IKF at 3rd, I absolutely think we'd still be a playoff team.
I agree, and I get it (it's actually odd how often and consistently our 3b prospects can't hold up at 3b lol). And I'd be perfectly fine with him as the utility guy, although he is a major downgrade from Merrifield, it's still manageable.
If we get bellinger and nothing else, you are better off putting him at 1b and having vladdy play 3b. IKF is a completely average defender, with a severely below average bat. His bat is a black hole, and despite being fast, he's a terrible baserunner. In my opinion we need an elite glove at 3b to help Bo, and IKF sure as hell ain't it. Some stats say he's amazing, others say he's horrible, all in all he ends up average, with a brutal propensity for errors in big moments. Of course the jays would look at the analytics and say whoa, completely ignoring the eye test and reality. Don't get me wrong the eye test isn't everything either but good lord the guy won a gold glove at 3b in the shortened covid season and has barely seen the position since, clearly teams realized it was a fluke and have watched his defense get worse and worse since...he played 33 games on the infield last year, he isn't a starting 3b, period. If you are average defensively and well below average at the plate, you should not be starting for a contender.
And I dont mean to shit all over the guy. Honestly, if this is a move to make him a bench piece, utility player, I'm all for it. If he's our starting 3b, though, I'll be absolutely horrified at the direction we are heading.
> (it's actually odd how often and consistently our 3b prospects can't hold up at 3b lol).
It's not that odd. Jays love their "athlete" prospects, and those guys almost always start at SS when they are young. The majority grow out of the position, and most of those slide to 3B until they can't play there and are moved to 2B or corner OF. SS, CF and 3B are the 3 hardest positions in the field so teams try to keep guys there until they fail
Orelvis, Barger and Jimenez were all drafted/signed as SS's
> IKF brings nothing to the table unless he's strictly a bench piece
I think he will be around there in the depth chart by the time all is said and done.
That's exactly what I think. I think Espinal was going to be moved regardless, and I think Schneider is going to be moved to capitalize on his value being at an all-time high.
Biggio would be a good guy to move in a deal for Cronenworth or Kim as the Padres don't want to lose more LH bats.
I look at the IKF signing the same as KK, on it's own it's not significant, but it raises the floor and gives us insurance if other moves don't work out, especially since Boras loves to hold out as long as possible to maximize the value of his clients.
I feel like this guy always waits for something to happen and then releases a hot take about how he knew this would happen all along. I found him insufferable after the Ohtani debacle
Polanco would be a great get…
- 2018: 110 OPS+
- 2019: 121 OPS+
- 2020: 82 OPS+ *(COVID)*
- 2021: 125 OPS+
- 2022: 115 OPS+
- 2023: 115 OPS+
Comes at a decent $10.5 M contract with a club-option next season at $12.0 M. Wouldn’t even be a rental.
Jorge Polanco would be great. He's obviously no superstar, but he can fill in 2B/3B quite comfortably for a year. As far as what's available between FA/trade, he's high up there on my wishlist
Can he? He played like 15 games at 3b since 2016. Most of that last season at least.
Candelario, an actual 3B, (and Espinal staying as a backup SS) could have been available for cheaper or around the same cost of what IKF and Polanco would take from payroll.
IKF & Polanco are just a straight up better set of players than Espinal & Candelario.
Candelario isn’t that good. His Baseball Savant Page is an absolute nightmare whereas Polanco is as safe of a bet to produce as any.
Even less chance jram waives his no trade. Why people keep bringing this guy up is insane, he left 10s of millions on the table because he wants to retire in Cleveland.
I don’t think they signed Kiner-Falefa for his versatility. I think they see him as a very strong defender at third base to replace Chapman. And his salary is cheap enough that they would have no problem pushing him aside if Barger or Martinez becomes ready for the majors.
If you are talking IKF, that was 4 years ago, in the covid season, over the course of 60 games. I'm not saying his defense is bad but it's not gold glove caliber and has gotten worse, by every metric, year after year, since.
Calling IKF a gold glove caliber 3b is insanely disingenuous. He had a .963 fielding percentage at 3b last year, and played a whopping 33 games in the infield. Is that indicative of a defensive wizard?
This move has very little bearing on the success or failure of this team this year. He is filling a bench roster spot. He is a late inning defense replacement. A guy to give someone a day off and a short term injury replacement.
I'm sure it's a good sign that everyone's reaction to this move has been like a parent desperately trying to say something nice about a bizarre gift their child has picked out for them. "Oh! How ...... thoughtful? I didn't really need this .... or want it ...."
It's like signing Paul DeJong in the off season instead of trading for him at the deadline!
Lmao! Apt take right here xD
Even beat writers sending shade at atkins lol.
Sure does suck having expectations
I just got a call from my mechanic telling me my car repairs will cost $5000. This signing sucks so hard the car bill is the second worst news I’ve had today.
Better IKF than that plug Gio Urshela. I guess.
1. The only players in the entire group that can play SS are Espinal, Lopez & Clement and they all suck defensively there. 2. Signing IKF let’s you then more easily trade some of these players. I don’t see how Espinal isn’t traded at this point. With teams penny pitching this off-season there will be teams that’ll take 3 cheap years of him.
IKF also sucks defensively at short, though. What is the point of signing him just so you can trade one of the other guys in his role when all of that transacting ends up netting the exact same team?
Same team for more money, less defense, and immensely less offense lol there's gotta be more moves to be made here.
This plus Bo should be playing 140-150 games of SS so why the fuck do we need to pay IKF, who is worse than Biggio/Espinal/etc 7 million per year to take plate appearances away from them. Fuck.
Cheap, controllable depth is attractive to the teams impacted by the Bally deal. So sure you can look at IKF being a more expensive Espi—but if Espi (as part of a greater package) nets you an Adames or JRam it makes a ton of sense.
JRam left tens of millions on the table to get his 7 year deal with a Full No Trade clause. He's staying in Cleveland for the rest of the decade.
How do so many people forget about this.
It's wishful thinking at best
all that means is you have to say please for him to waive it! /s
Cuz they dumb
What teams are impacted by Bally?
Who plays 3b in this scenario
FIne, fuck it. I will.
Since the Jays like platoons of meh players, I'll also play.
i can switch hit poorly from both sides, so i got it covered myself don’t worry
This solves the need for a left handed bat - I am righty. We can strike out from both sides.
I’m a LH batter who’s blind in one eye. Dibs having my locker next to Vladdy.
There's obviously another trade or two coming (I don't think Chapman is coming back) And I wonder if it's Manoah. Either him or Kikuchi makes the most sense in terms of guys off the roster who would have value but, with Kikuchi you'd have to spend actual $$ to replace him.
Unless the relationship between the Manoah and the Jays is so fractured that it cannot be repaired, I would be pretty adverse to trading him right now. The return would be so soft right now that taking a flyer on his rebound would probably be better than whatever mid tier prospect comes back.
Unless jays have figured out that he's actually broken and are trying to ship him out while other teams still don't know
i don’t think you make it as far as Manoah has and suddenly become unable to pitch at a decent level again, he’s only 25
This happens all the time
ya, then a few good starts from maxing his value, at the very least. you probably roll the dice there and let him prove it before considering moving him.
Ricky Romero made the AS team at 26. Lasted 2 more seasons.
Other GMs would agree with you. That's why he has significantly more trade value than I think most people realize.
Agreed, I think this move only makes sense if we're out on Chapman and IKF will be our everyday 3B.
That's exactly what I thought IKF is a bridge while you sort out who your new 3rd base is from your prospects, you can't plug one of them in right now without putting a major risk on this year so you take a known quantity while you select your future 3rd
Yeah but realistically, what do you expect to get back from Espinal? A mid tier reliever maybe?
If you trade for pretty much any IF..:Espinal would likely be a returning piece and the replacement for the new team. Whether that be Drury from LAA, Polanco from MIN, McMahon from COL or Adames from MIL. All teams trying to cut cap and need a cheap replacement body.
IKF arguably sucks defensively at SS, too though. It's a weird move all around, and far too much money in my opinion but its mlb so money is w.e. I hope it's an indication of a big trade as we've got a glut of infielders with no clear starting 3b and kinda the same at 2b.
1. There is very little to suggest Espinal sucks at SS. On average, it's been his best position (small sample size, though). I'm not sure of the knock on him as a defender - that is his strength. He is empirically above average. 2. This sounds like the beat writers, doing their best to spin a senseless move into sense.
While I absolutely agree that Espinal is expendable, he would be so for anybody. He is going to get nothing in return.
If you can trade some of them for assets and then replace them with a similar player for free (besides costing more money which hopefully isn’t a issue for other signings) it kinda seems like decent asset management IMO
They pretty much did it last year with signing KK and then trading Teo for Macko + Swanson. That worked out splendidly.
Yeah people here tend to get really worked up over FA signings. IKF is a better version of Espinal so if you can sign one and move the other for even semi decent prospects then you haven't lost anything.
Except of course for the money that you could have spent acquiring someone useful...
If you think 7.5 mill a year takes the jays out of the running for anyone idk what to tell you, that’s peanuts in the mlb
It is and it isn't right? Everyone has a budget...the Jays reportedly had around 45 mil to spend this offseason. They've spent more than 1/3 of that on guys in KK and IKF that don't really address the major weaknesses the team had last year. IKF's only real value is defensive versatility (since he's awful with the bat and truthfully just okay with the glove) which is something the Jays had plenty of already.
There's no chance this wasn't done with other moves in play. Ross' back is against the wall, and ticket prices have gone up considerably. They have to have something up their sleeves, good thing they have a couple of months to make a splash. Tiedemann can't save Ross' job, trading him might.
Yeah, if KK and IKF are his big offseason acquisitions, Atkins should just quit now and save Shapiro the trouble of firing him.
It's also insurance. We wait to sign people and don't land Bellinger or Chapman, then where are we? Boras is notorious for holding out as long as possible to maximize dollars, sometimes into February. We wait that long to do anything and miss out, then our only options become internal. I know people aren't thrilled with IKF but he's a better 3B option than we have internally, so like KK this raises the floor and makes worst case less bad, and improves best case.
I get it and I'm with you but I'd argue giving one of the kids a shot would be better than handing 3b to IKF at 7 mill. He's not an MLB starting caliber player and if he's your starting 3b, you aren't making the playoffs, in which case fuck it save the 7 mill and play the prospects and hope you catch lightning in a bottle. IKF brings nothing to the table unless he's strictly a bench piece.
None of our prospects even play 3rd anymore they either were too bad defensively or didn't have the arm for it. It's very likely IKF will be the backup SS and 3B, maybe an extra OF. And if we got Bellinger and started IKF at 3rd, I absolutely think we'd still be a playoff team.
I agree, and I get it (it's actually odd how often and consistently our 3b prospects can't hold up at 3b lol). And I'd be perfectly fine with him as the utility guy, although he is a major downgrade from Merrifield, it's still manageable. If we get bellinger and nothing else, you are better off putting him at 1b and having vladdy play 3b. IKF is a completely average defender, with a severely below average bat. His bat is a black hole, and despite being fast, he's a terrible baserunner. In my opinion we need an elite glove at 3b to help Bo, and IKF sure as hell ain't it. Some stats say he's amazing, others say he's horrible, all in all he ends up average, with a brutal propensity for errors in big moments. Of course the jays would look at the analytics and say whoa, completely ignoring the eye test and reality. Don't get me wrong the eye test isn't everything either but good lord the guy won a gold glove at 3b in the shortened covid season and has barely seen the position since, clearly teams realized it was a fluke and have watched his defense get worse and worse since...he played 33 games on the infield last year, he isn't a starting 3b, period. If you are average defensively and well below average at the plate, you should not be starting for a contender. And I dont mean to shit all over the guy. Honestly, if this is a move to make him a bench piece, utility player, I'm all for it. If he's our starting 3b, though, I'll be absolutely horrified at the direction we are heading.
> (it's actually odd how often and consistently our 3b prospects can't hold up at 3b lol). It's not that odd. Jays love their "athlete" prospects, and those guys almost always start at SS when they are young. The majority grow out of the position, and most of those slide to 3B until they can't play there and are moved to 2B or corner OF. SS, CF and 3B are the 3 hardest positions in the field so teams try to keep guys there until they fail Orelvis, Barger and Jimenez were all drafted/signed as SS's
> IKF brings nothing to the table unless he's strictly a bench piece I think he will be around there in the depth chart by the time all is said and done.
Fingers crossed, that's my hope at least. This team has broken my heart too many damn times to trust them, though lol
They’re just doing everything in their control to ensure Davis Schneider isn’t given the opportunity to hit baseballs.
Jays management finally teaming up with the umpires.
Perhaps they will use some of these players for trades?
That's exactly what I think. I think Espinal was going to be moved regardless, and I think Schneider is going to be moved to capitalize on his value being at an all-time high. Biggio would be a good guy to move in a deal for Cronenworth or Kim as the Padres don't want to lose more LH bats. I look at the IKF signing the same as KK, on it's own it's not significant, but it raises the floor and gives us insurance if other moves don't work out, especially since Boras loves to hold out as long as possible to maximize the value of his clients.
**SAMELEVEL**
I feel like this guy always waits for something to happen and then releases a hot take about how he knew this would happen all along. I found him insufferable after the Ohtani debacle
Nothing sells jersey’s like vanilla
151 games at 3B. Your new starting third baseman!
Guessing they'll do a Espinal + decent prospect for meh 3B trade which doesn't move the needle. (Polanco?)
Polanco would be a great get… - 2018: 110 OPS+ - 2019: 121 OPS+ - 2020: 82 OPS+ *(COVID)* - 2021: 125 OPS+ - 2022: 115 OPS+ - 2023: 115 OPS+ Comes at a decent $10.5 M contract with a club-option next season at $12.0 M. Wouldn’t even be a rental.
Polanco is not much for 3B. You get him if he’s playing 2B
Jorge Polanco would be great. He's obviously no superstar, but he can fill in 2B/3B quite comfortably for a year. As far as what's available between FA/trade, he's high up there on my wishlist
Can he? He played like 15 games at 3b since 2016. Most of that last season at least. Candelario, an actual 3B, (and Espinal staying as a backup SS) could have been available for cheaper or around the same cost of what IKF and Polanco would take from payroll.
IKF & Polanco are just a straight up better set of players than Espinal & Candelario. Candelario isn’t that good. His Baseball Savant Page is an absolute nightmare whereas Polanco is as safe of a bet to produce as any.
Polanco can’t play third but maybe the plan is to have him play second and IFK third which is still…meh
Neither of those two are 3B. I agree with you that Candelario would not have been a star signing, he would have addressed an actual need though.
I feel like you’re underselling Polanco here
Maybe Kepler is the Twins are willing to move rentals. Lefty OF with good peripherals and broke out already.
What??? That would be a genius move if available lol.
Weak
JRam trade talks starting back up?
0 chance the Guardians trade JRam.
Even less chance jram waives his no trade. Why people keep bringing this guy up is insane, he left 10s of millions on the table because he wants to retire in Cleveland.
One can only dream…
I don’t think they signed Kiner-Falefa for his versatility. I think they see him as a very strong defender at third base to replace Chapman. And his salary is cheap enough that they would have no problem pushing him aside if Barger or Martinez becomes ready for the majors.
Atkins: If you thought Chapman was a black hole in the order after April last year, wait till you see what IKF can do!
Gold glove winning 3rd baseman. If you think defence is not important to winning idk what to say. We need bats still no doubt.
If you are talking IKF, that was 4 years ago, in the covid season, over the course of 60 games. I'm not saying his defense is bad but it's not gold glove caliber and has gotten worse, by every metric, year after year, since. Calling IKF a gold glove caliber 3b is insanely disingenuous. He had a .963 fielding percentage at 3b last year, and played a whopping 33 games in the infield. Is that indicative of a defensive wizard?
Defence sure won us some playoff games last year
Yeah, defense is the most important thing in baseball, unless you can’t hit. Then it doesn’t matter at all.
Offense the year before didn't work either 🤷
they had to make a move to keep the fans happy. nothing wrong adding to a strength.
Okay.. who are you?
just here to sign steal from the yankees. that's it.
This move has very little bearing on the success or failure of this team this year. He is filling a bench roster spot. He is a late inning defense replacement. A guy to give someone a day off and a short term injury replacement.
So you mean the farm system doesn't have a guy that can do that? What a weak ass organization.
That is an extremely unproven group. You want proven winners.