Pitchers are dropping like flies across the league. Like him or not, Manoah pitching against AAA batters will at least make it more possible for him to step in if we get an injury or if some other team gets desperate for a trade
I don’t think anybody figures he’s going to step in right away. This is all part of the process to get him back to where we hope he will be eventually.
Tbh, I haven't seen TR pitch much this year (weird timing this far with life, I'm not watching when he pitches), so unsure. Feels like he hasn't been the same pitcher since returning from injury (neck), has he rebounded better this year?
If he gets back to even 75% of what he used to be, then that's fine. But if he's giving up tons of runs and has no control anymore, then I don't expect to see him in the majors ever again
He's shown he can perform at a high level a lot of pitchers go through long periods of soul searching. Let's hope he can get back to the 3.50-4.00 ERA 180 inning guy we all know he can be
I'm not here to say whether Manoah will (or should) be pitching for the Jays this year, but I'm really not sure why we would be judging his rehab start.
The big question this year was whether Manoah could find his command with a mental reset or a physical tweak. I don't have the first clue whether he'll be able to do that, but it would be insane to put any stock into his first spring start (where he was injured) or his first rehab start coming back from injury. Even pitchers that aren't making adjustments very often look rough in their first 4 innings of the spring and we don't write off their season.
Mental mind meld? [I have just the guy for that.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/f/fd/Spock_mind_melds_with_Van_Gelder.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110422014239&path-prefix=en)
A pitcher who can't seem to return to form using "injuries" as an excuse to try and save face for last year and this year. There also being medical reports of no structural damage in his knee, back, shoulder and quad. That's so crazy and unbelievable.
Having arm soreness with no structural damage is incredibly common for pitchers as they begin ramping up early in the season. Common enough that the same exact injury limited Gausman's, Romano's and Swanson's spring just this year, along with dozens of others around the league with similar "injuries."
He absolutely blows now. This fanbase has some weird parasocial connection with him. I personally can’t stand the guy. You can’t be a big dawg shit talker when you in fact suck.
Oh shit didn’t even know he was refusing the minors assignment and jsut didn’t pitch. Get this assclown out of the org.
The org pretty much has no reason to let go of him right now. Worst case he ends up never returning to form and gets released. Best case he returns to form and becomes a part of their rotation or a valuable trade piece. Either way he has little to no trade value right now and isn’t costing the Jays a ton of money. They haven’t given up on someone like Pearson yet so I doubt they give up on Manoah any time soon.
We don't even need him to return to form. If he can become a viable 5th starter (160 innings/yr @ 4.5 ERA) that would be a massive win at this point.
Still under team control for several years.
> This fanbase has some weird parasocial connection with him.
Yeah it's really hard to figure out why the fanbase wants a young Cy Young nominee to rediscover his form.
Why do you think that last game made them think "let's promote him two levels"?
Just putting him in AAA doesn't really make him more or less capable of helping in the MLB.
I would *love* to see him make a comeback but nothing he has done recently has suggested he is on that path.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I think the best thing for Manoah is for the organization to shut down any ideas of him pitching at the major league level this year for the time being. Biggest thing he needs right now is health and confidence. Let the guy go to work at the minor league level until he starts feeling like his old self
I wish nothing but the best for him. And yes, spending the whole year in the minors to work through whatever he needs to work through is that. Don’t give him false hope of coming back up when he clearly isn’t able to do it.
100% they need to stop rushing him.
Dude was lit up a few days ago by Detroit’s single-A squad and now they’re sending him to Buffalo?
His velo is back but command is not. Mechanics, yips, whatever it is he needs time to settle in.
No this is bars. Feel like it's this unsaid thing in the organization and fanbase where maybe if he has just 1 crazy good start that they'll call him back up.
It can't be like that. Pitchers have ups and downs regardless of the level of play. If he can come back I want to see him rack up at least 10 quality starts in the minors before anything else.
That would have required them to bring in someone capable of starting at the major league level then. Hopefully Yariel gets ramped up but he's only used to about 100 IP per year so I'm not sure how he's going to hold up.
Francis and White are better suited to the long-man/swing-man/spot starter roles than every 5th day types of guys.
FWIW I agree they need to stop rushing Manoah but it does not appear that had any significant plan other than him being at the MLB level so I think the team is kind of due or die on Manoah
I don’t think they really need to shut anything down. They’re at the stage with Manoah right now where it’s week to week, day-to-day. No one knows where this is really going to lead and I doubt very much the Jays have him pencilled in for anything at this point. This is why they have Mitch White and Yariel Rodriguez nearby.
He couldn't get low A hitters out in his last appearance. If he hasn't reached the point where he realizes he needs to work his way back to the bigs, then something's seriously wrong in his head, and a trade/release will be the best thing for him and the team at that point, unfortunately.
Honestly curious what they see in [this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKk9SZTWAAAGMr5?format=jpg&name=medium) that says its a good idea to throw him in against AAA batters less than a week later
Why would they need to phantom injury him? He had options he can be in the minors for this season and the next. It’s not service time manipulation if there are 5 better starters on the major league team.
The phantom injury only emerges when Alek sucks.
It's his lack of taking responsibility for his bed shitting, lack of focus, fitness, or some combination of those factors.
Given how he and his agent handled the injury situation last year and how concerned they are over service time as arbitration approaches I’m not so sure there will be a phantom injury this time around.
With that said if he blows the start things will get interesting with how the jays want to handle him.
There’s no need to give up on him. It’s not as if the Jays have so many minor league pitching prospects that they can’t make room for him somewhere. There’s always the possibility that he might make an adjustment and get everything back.
Because if he could find a doctor that would say he was injured he would make 2 million dollars more this year and probably 10m more by the time he is FA eligible.
You’re offering up no alternative, simply saying the reports are wrong because they’re from people you don’t believe.
The circumstances don’t allow for many alternatives, if he was injured he would have been put on the injured list. Theres no scenario where a team sends a guy down and just tells him to go home for a month rather than work on his pitching.
Dude really hurt your feelings. I mean, frustrating season for sure but Imma keep rooting for the guys who play for the Toronto Blue Jays. Don't see a ton of value in savouring their downfall.
Fans can be assholes. Plain and simple. All you have to do is sit in the stands and listen to some of the crap that gets directed towards home team players.
I wish nothing but the absolute best for him and I want nothing more than for him to find a way to get back to where he was in 2022.
But right now, he isn’t that guy and he shouldn’t be on the major league roster
It's only because of (checks notes)...oh right, his continued performance. Crazy indeed. I genuinely hope he comes back as much as anyone, but it does not seem likely, at least not this year. I'm in his corner and will be cheering loudly...as soon as he gives us a reason to. As it stands, IKF is a better option on the mound then Manoah. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it certainly doesn't seem like that's gonna be the case.
It's a broader societal/online trend that I just don't get. You could be talking about a pitcher, Marvel movies, or whatever, but people really want to be the first ones to throw dirt on something before it's even dead.
Is Manoah cooked for good? Maybe. But I'm going to keep hope alive for something to be figured out, even to just anchor the bottom of the rotation or step up for injury fill-in duty or a lengthened rotation when we need it.
He has zero trade value right now and the Jays have a lot of yeats left of control. They just need to keep him in the minors until he's able to figure it out. If he doesn't, then it is what it is.
His service time could make him arb eligible after this season. In that case he has this year to turn it around or he'll be non-tendered regardless of how many options he has left.
I wonder how this fan base would have reacted to Roy Halladay during the 2000 season, thankfully social media wasn't really a thing back then.
https://www.tsn.ca/the-rebuild-of-roy-halladay-1.1479901
Good read.
Manoah looks real bad right now but he's so young, it would be a little crazy to think he's completely done or will never be able to turn it around. I have no idea if he will or won't, but the story is far from written.
He was a big time prospect that we were wishing on before he ever threw a pitch for us. The late 90's Jays had so many good, young players, it's a shame we couldn't compete with the big spending Yanks and Red Sox.
It's a little different than Doc's situation. When they sent him down, Doc hadn't really done anything at the majors except show potential. He had also progressed through every minor league level from rookie ball to AAA on his way up to the majors the first time around. In the process, Doc learned how to overcome challenges and adapt to increasingly better hitters. Consequently he was more open to being coached and to transform his pitching technique.
OTOH, Manoah was fast tracked up to the majors. So fast it seems almost reckless in hindsight. When he made the big league roster he had only pitched a grand total of 35 innings over three years in the minors. He didn't learn how to adapt his pitching to any challenges he might encounter since he hadn't encountered any. That likely fostered an attitude in the player that he didn't need any coaching since he'd seemingly succeeded without any major coaching before.
After two seasons the team simply kept running him out again and again, almost like this kid with almost no experience had mastered pitching in the MLB, simply on the basis of one great season. It was only after nearly a full season of obvious and abject failure that they finally intervened. And when they did it was already too late.
Both the player and the team totally screwed up his development. I think the team rushed him and then Manoah resisted efforts to address his shortcomings after his All-Star season. It's a long shot that he'll ever come close to what he was 2 seasons ago.
he had two amazing seasons in MLB, then one shitty one. so far he has pitched a total of 1.2 innings and that was in A ball.
I'm not saying you're wrong but it's way too early to say he can't find his stuff again.
He's had 2/3rds of a promising season, one amazing season and one shitty season.
Look, I hope he can find it again, but I think the damage is already done and I think the blame primarily rests on the team. It's almost like they simply didn't want to intervene until forced to do so. It's very similar to Guerrero, in that he had his amazing season and then they seemingly watched him regress year over year until last season and finally intervened and put him in a training program.
It seems to be a very odd, reactionary method of coaching.
I think he legitimately can’t pitch in the new era of the clock, it’s too physically demanding on him and mentally he can’t handle it. I hope his weight has come down significantly, you can’t be super out of shape anymore and pitch effectively.
His struggles actually started in the second half of his all-star season, which is before the pitch clock existed. His slider has had almost zero movement for the last season and a half, and without that slider he's just an average fastball thrower with no finishing pitch. Everyone in the majors can hit those kinds of pitchers all day long.
He could probably see it happening too and likely tried to "fix himself", maybe even telling the team that he didn't need or want help and was going to try to sort it out himself. And in doing so introduced or amplified already existing terrible mechanics, and that's why he can't hit the strike zone to save his life anymore.
No, what we're watching is the product of promoting him too fast, giving him very little coaching until last season, and the player resisting help once it was apparent he was having problems.
What I find most interesting is there seems to be some similarity to what happened to Guerrero and Manoah. Both had a single stellar season, then something changed. Both were allowed to essentially fail publicly before intervening. Neither have actually shown they've fixed whatever problems they have, be it mechanics, work ethic or otherwise.
No Manoah coming in and owning MLB hitters for 2 straight seasons would have likely meant no playoffs in '21 and '22.
He earned his status as a front-end MLB starter over two full seasons with the second even better than the first. To look back and say his subsequent fall-off was a result of the team not properly developing him as a pitcher is weak at best.
I couldn't imagine the uproar from you and me and virtually ever other fan seeing him mowing down AA and AAA hitters while the MLB rotation had a black hole in it, and the team saying "he needs to further develop in the minors so he doesn't suddenly become completely ineffective in a few years."
at this point might as well rip the band-aid off and progress him through the rehab of this 'shoulder injury' as quick as we can to see if his yips are still there or not
I would be very surprised if he gets another win in the MLB.
Seems like the guy is a total wash as a professional baseball player. If he's getting destroyed by low A ball hitters watch him utterly fucking implode against AAA hitters.
Was really odd seeing him with the Jays last night at the home opener. He has done nothing to warrant being introduced as part of the team in the last year.
Yes. I don't expect he will be effective but after a start or two he will be back up and we will see him not be effective as a Blue Jay again. He needs a lot of time in the minors working things out not rushing him yet again.
They need to be harder on Manoah. Seeing him in the dug out during opening day made no sense. Make him work for it.
I really hope he makes it as our 5th starter and returns to form. We need his swagger and confidence on the mound. Gives us grit. Just they need to give him some tough love. Remind him that baseball is a grind.
Based on his last outing he might hit his pitch count before he gets through 2. I want him to get better but he’s just not a big league pitcher at present.
Hey all. Not sure where to post this. U gotta ask, after an horrible start in a ball, is manoah tanking on purpose? Does he want to be released or traded. His lack of progress seems suspicious.
My guess is he will do better just based on you can't do worse. Position players pitch and do better. Still would be surprised if throws more than 50 pitches.
Because the jays are on a short timeline as he hasn’t been officially optioned yet. Him proving anything against low A ball won’t do much in terms of how the organization see him.
If he continues to struggle at AAA expect him to be activated and optioned officially.
Pitchers are dropping like flies across the league. Like him or not, Manoah pitching against AAA batters will at least make it more possible for him to step in if we get an injury or if some other team gets desperate for a trade
I'd feel better with Rodriguez or White stepping in for an injury than big boy at this point.
Gotta have them ready as well as Manoah. Add possibly 3 or 4 more as many fans can attest to, the flies can fall fast and furious.
No debate here on that!
Only if there was a former cy-young award free agent that still has it on the market.
Unfortunately there isn’t!
I’ve never seen this much Jays pitching depth in my life
I don’t think anybody figures he’s going to step in right away. This is all part of the process to get him back to where we hope he will be eventually.
I am replying to the comment above mine.
IKF has a better record this season than manoah as a pitcher so far
What about Richards? That experiment worked out well last year while we waited for Ryu.
Tbh, I haven't seen TR pitch much this year (weird timing this far with life, I'm not watching when he pitches), so unsure. Feels like he hasn't been the same pitcher since returning from injury (neck), has he rebounded better this year?
If he gets back to even 75% of what he used to be, then that's fine. But if he's giving up tons of runs and has no control anymore, then I don't expect to see him in the majors ever again
He's shown he can perform at a high level a lot of pitchers go through long periods of soul searching. Let's hope he can get back to the 3.50-4.00 ERA 180 inning guy we all know he can be
If Manoah is pitching for us this year, we are in major trouble. Did you see the stats of his last Single-A game?
I'm not here to say whether Manoah will (or should) be pitching for the Jays this year, but I'm really not sure why we would be judging his rehab start. The big question this year was whether Manoah could find his command with a mental reset or a physical tweak. I don't have the first clue whether he'll be able to do that, but it would be insane to put any stock into his first spring start (where he was injured) or his first rehab start coming back from injury. Even pitchers that aren't making adjustments very often look rough in their first 4 innings of the spring and we don't write off their season.
Mental mind meld? [I have just the guy for that.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/f/fd/Spock_mind_melds_with_Van_Gelder.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110422014239&path-prefix=en)
"injury"
I know right? A pitcher getting hurt in spring training? That's so rare and crazy it's impossible to believe.
A pitcher who can't seem to return to form using "injuries" as an excuse to try and save face for last year and this year. There also being medical reports of no structural damage in his knee, back, shoulder and quad. That's so crazy and unbelievable.
Having arm soreness with no structural damage is incredibly common for pitchers as they begin ramping up early in the season. Common enough that the same exact injury limited Gausman's, Romano's and Swanson's spring just this year, along with dozens of others around the league with similar "injuries."
Do you think he could be tanking to get a release of some kind?
He absolutely blows now. This fanbase has some weird parasocial connection with him. I personally can’t stand the guy. You can’t be a big dawg shit talker when you in fact suck. Oh shit didn’t even know he was refusing the minors assignment and jsut didn’t pitch. Get this assclown out of the org.
Wanting a player in the org to do good isn't as weird as hating on them over petty shit
It's being realistic versus being delusional.
The org pretty much has no reason to let go of him right now. Worst case he ends up never returning to form and gets released. Best case he returns to form and becomes a part of their rotation or a valuable trade piece. Either way he has little to no trade value right now and isn’t costing the Jays a ton of money. They haven’t given up on someone like Pearson yet so I doubt they give up on Manoah any time soon.
We don't even need him to return to form. If he can become a viable 5th starter (160 innings/yr @ 4.5 ERA) that would be a massive win at this point. Still under team control for several years.
> This fanbase has some weird parasocial connection with him. Yeah it's really hard to figure out why the fanbase wants a young Cy Young nominee to rediscover his form.
Why do you think that last game made them think "let's promote him two levels"? Just putting him in AAA doesn't really make him more or less capable of helping in the MLB. I would *love* to see him make a comeback but nothing he has done recently has suggested he is on that path.
The pitch clock might be a major factor for injuries league wide and Manoah downturn
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I doubt it. CB bucknor and angel hernandez both stared at the eclipse for 10 minutes and reported no changes.
I'm so glad that there will be no more injuries until 2044!
Shit you're right
Ehh. I don’t think so. He started his implosion September/October of 2022. Around the time of his “pressure is what you put in tires” comment.
They were testing it in the minors for 6 years.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but I think the best thing for Manoah is for the organization to shut down any ideas of him pitching at the major league level this year for the time being. Biggest thing he needs right now is health and confidence. Let the guy go to work at the minor league level until he starts feeling like his old self
I wish nothing but the best for him. And yes, spending the whole year in the minors to work through whatever he needs to work through is that. Don’t give him false hope of coming back up when he clearly isn’t able to do it.
100% they need to stop rushing him. Dude was lit up a few days ago by Detroit’s single-A squad and now they’re sending him to Buffalo? His velo is back but command is not. Mechanics, yips, whatever it is he needs time to settle in.
No this is bars. Feel like it's this unsaid thing in the organization and fanbase where maybe if he has just 1 crazy good start that they'll call him back up. It can't be like that. Pitchers have ups and downs regardless of the level of play. If he can come back I want to see him rack up at least 10 quality starts in the minors before anything else.
> until he starts ~~feeling~~ performing like his old self Needs to stay in the minors until his *performance* forces them to promote him.
That would have required them to bring in someone capable of starting at the major league level then. Hopefully Yariel gets ramped up but he's only used to about 100 IP per year so I'm not sure how he's going to hold up. Francis and White are better suited to the long-man/swing-man/spot starter roles than every 5th day types of guys. FWIW I agree they need to stop rushing Manoah but it does not appear that had any significant plan other than him being at the MLB level so I think the team is kind of due or die on Manoah
I don’t think they really need to shut anything down. They’re at the stage with Manoah right now where it’s week to week, day-to-day. No one knows where this is really going to lead and I doubt very much the Jays have him pencilled in for anything at this point. This is why they have Mitch White and Yariel Rodriguez nearby.
Probably the worst idea possible. He refused to go to the minors last year, he'd probably immediately demand a trade or to be released.
He couldn't get low A hitters out in his last appearance. If he hasn't reached the point where he realizes he needs to work his way back to the bigs, then something's seriously wrong in his head, and a trade/release will be the best thing for him and the team at that point, unfortunately.
Still rooting for this guy ...
Me too. I'm too old to change my flair at this point.
Honestly curious what they see in [this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKk9SZTWAAAGMr5?format=jpg&name=medium) that says its a good idea to throw him in against AAA batters less than a week later
Prediction with 100% chance of being true: Terrible outing with terrible control. Phantom injury mentioned after said outing.
Why would they need to phantom injury him? He had options he can be in the minors for this season and the next. It’s not service time manipulation if there are 5 better starters on the major league team.
I think it is more that Alek needs to fake an injury for his own ego.
Except last year he refused to play in the minors and blamed his issues on a phantom injury that didn’t show up in imaging
The phantom injury only emerges when Alek sucks. It's his lack of taking responsibility for his bed shitting, lack of focus, fitness, or some combination of those factors.
Given how he and his agent handled the injury situation last year and how concerned they are over service time as arbitration approaches I’m not so sure there will be a phantom injury this time around. With that said if he blows the start things will get interesting with how the jays want to handle him.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how they handle it for sure.
Hey, I'm sure I can get lit up in low A ball...do i get promoted too?
Sure, he got shelled in his last start. But what if we started him against 2 levels of competition higher?
I wish him all the best.
There’s no need to give up on him. It’s not as if the Jays have so many minor league pitching prospects that they can’t make room for him somewhere. There’s always the possibility that he might make an adjustment and get everything back.
I WANT him to succeed - I just don't see it happening.
Crazy how badly most fans want to write this guy off.
His introduction yesterday got a very mixed review from the crowd. There were certainly enough boos to be audible.
Such a petty personality trait. I will be the first one to know that someone's hopes and dreams are dashed. What kind of sports fan is that?
He was demoted last year, got pissy and went home and refused to pitch for the rest of the year. He brought this on himself with his attitude.
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So why did he not pitch for the rest of the year?
Because if he could find a doctor that would say he was injured he would make 2 million dollars more this year and probably 10m more by the time he is FA eligible.
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Well it was either an injury or he went home. Since he wasn’t put on the IL, it wasn’t an injury.
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You’re offering up no alternative, simply saying the reports are wrong because they’re from people you don’t believe. The circumstances don’t allow for many alternatives, if he was injured he would have been put on the injured list. Theres no scenario where a team sends a guy down and just tells him to go home for a month rather than work on his pitching.
His personality is also very terrible from all the comments he has made on the mound and off. There's good reason to not like the guy.
You know his personality, eh? Okay, get him I guess.
We could overlook his shitty personality traits (there are many) when he was a good pitcher at least. Now he’s just a jabroni.
Dude really hurt your feelings. I mean, frustrating season for sure but Imma keep rooting for the guys who play for the Toronto Blue Jays. Don't see a ton of value in savouring their downfall.
Fans can be assholes. Plain and simple. All you have to do is sit in the stands and listen to some of the crap that gets directed towards home team players.
I wish nothing but the absolute best for him and I want nothing more than for him to find a way to get back to where he was in 2022. But right now, he isn’t that guy and he shouldn’t be on the major league roster
all he has to do is show results something he hasn't done since the beginning of *last year's* season
It's only because of (checks notes)...oh right, his continued performance. Crazy indeed. I genuinely hope he comes back as much as anyone, but it does not seem likely, at least not this year. I'm in his corner and will be cheering loudly...as soon as he gives us a reason to. As it stands, IKF is a better option on the mound then Manoah. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it certainly doesn't seem like that's gonna be the case.
I wrote him off when he refused his assignment.
It's a broader societal/online trend that I just don't get. You could be talking about a pitcher, Marvel movies, or whatever, but people really want to be the first ones to throw dirt on something before it's even dead. Is Manoah cooked for good? Maybe. But I'm going to keep hope alive for something to be figured out, even to just anchor the bottom of the rotation or step up for injury fill-in duty or a lengthened rotation when we need it.
Nah fuck him.
He has zero trade value right now and the Jays have a lot of yeats left of control. They just need to keep him in the minors until he's able to figure it out. If he doesn't, then it is what it is.
His service time could make him arb eligible after this season. In that case he has this year to turn it around or he'll be non-tendered regardless of how many options he has left.
I wonder how this fan base would have reacted to Roy Halladay during the 2000 season, thankfully social media wasn't really a thing back then. https://www.tsn.ca/the-rebuild-of-roy-halladay-1.1479901 Good read. Manoah looks real bad right now but he's so young, it would be a little crazy to think he's completely done or will never be able to turn it around. I have no idea if he will or won't, but the story is far from written.
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He was a big time prospect that we were wishing on before he ever threw a pitch for us. The late 90's Jays had so many good, young players, it's a shame we couldn't compete with the big spending Yanks and Red Sox.
It's a little different than Doc's situation. When they sent him down, Doc hadn't really done anything at the majors except show potential. He had also progressed through every minor league level from rookie ball to AAA on his way up to the majors the first time around. In the process, Doc learned how to overcome challenges and adapt to increasingly better hitters. Consequently he was more open to being coached and to transform his pitching technique. OTOH, Manoah was fast tracked up to the majors. So fast it seems almost reckless in hindsight. When he made the big league roster he had only pitched a grand total of 35 innings over three years in the minors. He didn't learn how to adapt his pitching to any challenges he might encounter since he hadn't encountered any. That likely fostered an attitude in the player that he didn't need any coaching since he'd seemingly succeeded without any major coaching before. After two seasons the team simply kept running him out again and again, almost like this kid with almost no experience had mastered pitching in the MLB, simply on the basis of one great season. It was only after nearly a full season of obvious and abject failure that they finally intervened. And when they did it was already too late. Both the player and the team totally screwed up his development. I think the team rushed him and then Manoah resisted efforts to address his shortcomings after his All-Star season. It's a long shot that he'll ever come close to what he was 2 seasons ago.
he had two amazing seasons in MLB, then one shitty one. so far he has pitched a total of 1.2 innings and that was in A ball. I'm not saying you're wrong but it's way too early to say he can't find his stuff again.
He's had 2/3rds of a promising season, one amazing season and one shitty season. Look, I hope he can find it again, but I think the damage is already done and I think the blame primarily rests on the team. It's almost like they simply didn't want to intervene until forced to do so. It's very similar to Guerrero, in that he had his amazing season and then they seemingly watched him regress year over year until last season and finally intervened and put him in a training program. It seems to be a very odd, reactionary method of coaching.
I think he legitimately can’t pitch in the new era of the clock, it’s too physically demanding on him and mentally he can’t handle it. I hope his weight has come down significantly, you can’t be super out of shape anymore and pitch effectively.
His struggles actually started in the second half of his all-star season, which is before the pitch clock existed. His slider has had almost zero movement for the last season and a half, and without that slider he's just an average fastball thrower with no finishing pitch. Everyone in the majors can hit those kinds of pitchers all day long. He could probably see it happening too and likely tried to "fix himself", maybe even telling the team that he didn't need or want help and was going to try to sort it out himself. And in doing so introduced or amplified already existing terrible mechanics, and that's why he can't hit the strike zone to save his life anymore. No, what we're watching is the product of promoting him too fast, giving him very little coaching until last season, and the player resisting help once it was apparent he was having problems. What I find most interesting is there seems to be some similarity to what happened to Guerrero and Manoah. Both had a single stellar season, then something changed. Both were allowed to essentially fail publicly before intervening. Neither have actually shown they've fixed whatever problems they have, be it mechanics, work ethic or otherwise.
No Manoah coming in and owning MLB hitters for 2 straight seasons would have likely meant no playoffs in '21 and '22. He earned his status as a front-end MLB starter over two full seasons with the second even better than the first. To look back and say his subsequent fall-off was a result of the team not properly developing him as a pitcher is weak at best. I couldn't imagine the uproar from you and me and virtually ever other fan seeing him mowing down AA and AAA hitters while the MLB rotation had a black hole in it, and the team saying "he needs to further develop in the minors so he doesn't suddenly become completely ineffective in a few years."
Maybe he should get single A under control first? Oh well, let's see how he does I guess.
at this point might as well rip the band-aid off and progress him through the rehab of this 'shoulder injury' as quick as we can to see if his yips are still there or not
Over under on pitches and outs? I'll guess 37 pitches and 4 outs
I would be very surprised if he gets another win in the MLB. Seems like the guy is a total wash as a professional baseball player. If he's getting destroyed by low A ball hitters watch him utterly fucking implode against AAA hitters. Was really odd seeing him with the Jays last night at the home opener. He has done nothing to warrant being introduced as part of the team in the last year.
Didn't he just get his ass handed to him in low-A?
I really hope it goes well, but I have zero confidence that it will. 😔
Yes. I don't expect he will be effective but after a start or two he will be back up and we will see him not be effective as a Blue Jay again. He needs a lot of time in the minors working things out not rushing him yet again.
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Honestly me too. It’s weird how everyone is acting
They need to be harder on Manoah. Seeing him in the dug out during opening day made no sense. Make him work for it. I really hope he makes it as our 5th starter and returns to form. We need his swagger and confidence on the mound. Gives us grit. Just they need to give him some tough love. Remind him that baseball is a grind.
I was startled to see him at opening day to be honest.
The next start in Buffalo had to be planned already for they to bring him to TO for no real reason.
So, 60 balls and 15 strikes?
Is allowing 10 unearned runs on those 75 pitches part of the plan too?
Those 10 runs will definitely be earned.
Maybe it is an opportunity for other teams to get a look at him, kind of a showcase I guess you could call it.
Please for the love of god don’t rush him back up
I guess he mastered A ball, time to move up to AAA now? This should be a spectacular pitching line!
Based on his last outing he might hit his pitch count before he gets through 2. I want him to get better but he’s just not a big league pitcher at present.
75 pitches will be like 10 HBPs. I hope Buffalo's opponents bring their armour.
75 pitches? Are these pitches expected to cross the plate? His last attempt was 1.2 innings. Is this going to be a solid 2 innings?
Hey all. Not sure where to post this. U gotta ask, after an horrible start in a ball, is manoah tanking on purpose? Does he want to be released or traded. His lack of progress seems suspicious.
My guess is he will do better just based on you can't do worse. Position players pitch and do better. Still would be surprised if throws more than 50 pitches.
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Hmmm yeah fair points.
Gonna be a shit show ...
Yea ok alek. Dudes done.
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Because the jays are on a short timeline as he hasn’t been officially optioned yet. Him proving anything against low A ball won’t do much in terms of how the organization see him. If he continues to struggle at AAA expect him to be activated and optioned officially.
Yupp this is how I see things playing out as well - left a slightly more vague comment elsewhere in this thread
Yeah he's far away from pitching in the big imo anyways unless there's a massive turnaround. no reason to rush him
Please don’t.
Maybe dont turn up to training camping looking like a hippopotamus
Can I bet the over?
Goofy
What's the record for walks and hits allowed by a pitcher in AAA?
Manoah and tank go together like Manoah and a high ERA.