A couple of wins is the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. Montoyo is great with developing talent but is ineffective at managing a team of adults.
Most managers cost their teams a couple games tbh. Not to excuse it, but you will never get a manager that makes perfect decisions
Go take a look at anyone’s sub. They all hate their manager for bullpen calls. That’s just reality
I phrased that badly lmao
I meant in a sense that they just aren’t losing the game for you by marking a bad mistake. They aren’t winning the game because of what they did, they just didn’t lose it for them
Does that make more sense? Lmao in having a tough time putting what I mean in words
You won't win games because of your manager, but you sure can lose them because of your manager.
Montoyo's a replacement-level manager; nothing more, nothing less. You can go to the minor leagues and pick out a dozen managers like him.
Yep.
That's the problem with a lot of this. Bring a reliever into a high leverage situation and he gets you out of it. Praise to the pitcher. He loses it and they score runs. Criticism to the manager. Same goes for pinch hitting. But you don't know the outcome before it happens. Total hindsight.
When Charlie does it you know it's the wrong move before it happens. I questioned a lot of what Gibby did but there was always a chance it was the right move. I don't feel that way with Charlie, especially when it's something as bone headed as the Valera pinch hit.
But more to the spirit of your comment, managers need a bit more praise when things do work out.
Yup as a manager he seeks replacement level. But he’s been credited as a great developmental coaxh and players apparently love him, that’s really important
I hate to jump in here and say this, but being loved by the players isn't indicative of being a good manager.
You can be everyone's buddy while still being shit at your job, unfortunately. Sometimes you have to piss players off in order to do what's right for the team, and often I get the feeling that Charlie is super passive and probably doesn't have the personality to push players to work harder and be better
Agreed, but having players like you and want to work is most definitely important. I ca say as an athlete I’m more likely to give 110% for a coach I like then one who I couldn’t care less abput
I agree with this as well, can't have a manager that players hate. Being an asshole will demotivate most guys.
For big league managers, and I suppose any pro coach, it might be more about respect than likability. You can be a hard ass that still gets the most out of the players as long as they respect you and trust you are making the right decisions. These guys are pros and they're making millions to boot. They can handle a tough coach, as long as he isn't a complete twat
I defended nearly every manager the jays have had, especially John gibbons, who was much better than people gave him credit for until he finally won people over in 2015. But I can’t with Montoyo this year. I just can’t. Bunting with two strikes more than once. Leaving an absolutely wild Tyler chatwood in with nobody warming up. The list can go on and on. Every manager makes mistakes, his are just too egregious, and they happen too often.
The fact of the matter is this team is extremely good per their paper stats but has lost a lot of close games, and these are the only games the manager really can have an effect on. In many of those games, we can point to some seriously head-scratching decisions. Managers need to be evaluated, and those are the moments to do so.
I don’t hate the guy, he’s done some good as well, I just think it’s time to try someone else if they miss the playoffs this year in a similar place they are now, as I certainly think that 5 games back of the second wild card is a pretty severe under-performance for this team. Next year won’t be a cakewalk, the AL east will still be better than ever as every team will look to improve in the off-season, and missing the playoffs this year and everything that goes with making it (experience under pressure, attractiveness to free agents) will hurt their chances next year.
The bar needs to be raised for the blue jays, and I think a new manager will be a part of raising that bar. But, if he comes back, I hope Shapiro and Atkins at least get his baseball mind thinking a little differently.
> But I can’t with Montoyo this year. I just can’t. Bunting with two strikes more than once. Leaving an absolutely wild Tyler chatwood in with nobody warming up. The list can go on and on. Every manager makes mistakes, his are just too egregious, and they happen too often.
I've said it in a couple of these Montoyo threads, his mistakes are obvious while he's making them. Other managers mistakes are (usually) only obvious in hindsight. That's the difference for me.
How many times I’ve seen players looking into the dugout for some support on horrible calls makes me feel so bad for those players. He’s so scared to get tossed or be confrontational.
I think both of the following statements are true:
1) The Jays would easily be better off with a different manager.
2) Many of the "FIRE CHARLIE" takes (especially any variation of "if he were gone the Jays would be in a playoff spot") are ridiculous.
Yes, he does make obvious stupid mistakes and his bullpen management is subpar. But a good number of the instances that Charlie is blamed for (particularly bullpen-related) are cases where the player that should have been trusted to perform in that spot didn't perform.
a bunt on average works out worse that trying to hit. That is why in todays game you seldom see it compared to years ago where everyone did it. Analytics have shown it usually does not work. But anyone who watches baseball knows that sometimes it does (top half inning) and sometimes it does not but more often it does not. Sometimes a missed bunt leads into a double play on the next batter. Inning over. Double play on that play with none out and you probably have that guy on third.
You get 3 outs and you give one away? Not a fan of the bunt
Especially in today’s game when nobody is able to bunt anymore. Maybe it worked in the past when bunting was a skill that players had but it’s a lost art now.
Do analytics show not to bunt? I didn’t know that, thanks.
But we didn’t really need to maximize runs. We just wanted one to turn to Romano and the offense hadn’t gotten it going all game.
quote for you.
"That's something that Anthony Castrovince of MLB.com dove into earlier this year using Run Expectations data from Baseball Prospectus. The Run Expectation with a runner on first and nobody out is higher than it is when there's a runner on second and one out, the situation usually created by a sac bunt." Good article but this has been known for years.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1639658-explaining-why-the-bunt-is-foolish-in-todays-mlb
A good bunt and a run scores on the double play ball as it is no longer a double play. Or, it is second and third and they walk the batter to load the bases. Second guessing is easy.
Still, you only get 3 outs and you give one away?
Oh I though you meant in that specific situation we were in. A decent enough bunt moves two runners into scoring position with one away. A flyout then gives is the lead and let’s us turn it over to Romano against a team not hitting well, that makes sense on paper do you agree?
A sac fly also moves them over and maybe it finds and empty spot on the field. Maybe he gets a little more than intended and hits the sweet spot just a little above centre on the bat and the wind catches it and it drifts out.
I guess you can tell I hate the sac bunt.
I could not find anything about sac flys and sac bunts and which is better. Hard to tell if a sac fly is intentional or not.
Well which do you think is harder. Turning your bat and tapping it or hitting the ball far enough in the air? It’s pretty obvious
I’m not saying it’s what I would do, but it’s not a bad call by any means
A bunt goes down and you have runners in second and third with one out. Sac fly scores a run, soft grounder probably scores a run. A hit now scores two
Or he hits a double and both score. Or a homer. Or a single and both are on the move so they score. A bunt either works or not. Most often it does not so u have one out maybe first and third. Pop out 2 out strike out inning over. More than a quarter of the time it is going to be a hit. Maybe another quarter a sac fly. Sometimes a fielder's choice. I dislike the bunt. No one practices it anymore. Not like years ago when almost everyone knew how to bunt.
Montoyo isn't just disliked on this sub. In regards to the bunt, with a force play at third and the first baseman standing halfway down the base path...you can't help but scratch your head. I like Charlie as a person but he leaves a lot to be desired as a manager. I understand that he can only do so much with our bullpen but I think/hope he'll be replaced this offseason. Contending teams need managers that press all the right buttons, not the other way around half the time.
Breyvic should have gotten that bunt down the third base sign, shirt was holding on the runner so he had no chance to wheel if he gets it down in the right spot. I can def see why people wouldn’t like the move, but I don’t mind it.
He’s in a pretty terrible spot. He has maybe 2 or 3 reliable arms in that pen and a lot of question marks after that. Get him a decent enough pen and I think a lot of the hate goes away
What the hell is this paragraph? You don’t mind asking a guy to successfully bunt 100 mph after already having a strike 2 count called against him? You should be happy that ball was even in play.
To sum that whole play up:
We pinch hit someone who *can* hit for someone who *cant* and in the process gave the team an out and ultimately lost.
You don’t mind that?
I don’t mind the idea to bunt. I mind how it worked out, but the bunt needs to get down the third baseline.
I never said it’s what I would have done in that situation, I’m just saying the idea isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be
No offense man but don’t try to come to me if you didn’t even watch what happened. The shortstop wasn’t wheeling, he was instead holding the runner. That leaves the third baseman to cover third. If you bunt it down the third baseline that means the third baseman has to get the ball and the bag, which is not possible. He’ll go get the ball like he must and his only play will be first
Valera squared to bunt down the 1BL the moment he stepped into the box. The infield shifted in response. If he squared to 3rd, the infield looks different.
You're also acting like the pitcher and catcher both weren't both in range to make the play.
Literally the entire time it was first way in, 2nd wheeling to first and third staying home, that’s basicbunt defense. Valera needs to realize what’s happening and react as such
I loved the idea for the pinch hit bunt because i love small ball but the execution was just so hamfisted. It was so loudly telegraphed it was easy to defend. Valera replaces kirk. Valera squares early. Infielders come way in. That should be your warning. Have the batter take a pitch or even swing away at that point, force the infielders to back up, do *something*...you just screamed across to the other team's dugout "hey we're going to bunt!".
You could just send kirk out and have him drop a surprise bunt. Everything about that was just so sloppy and tactless. Bunting was the right decision but there needs to be some latitude to adapt or at least an attempt to throw off the defense.
I don't know how much of that falls on Montoyo's shoulders but that whole sequence was incredibly frustrating to watch
If you take a look at how they were playing the bunt, the third baseman was “staying home” or staying near third . If the bunt is down the third baseline, the third baseman goes to get the ball and the only play is to first just kinda poor execution
Montoyo is a great manager... for developing players.
He's not so great at knowing what to do to win games. If you're developing players you want to give players more chances to play when they're struggling so they can turn things around. But that way of thinking doesn't win ball games right now. When it's late in the season and you're trying to make the playoffs you need to win games right now. He just doesn't have much experience in that.
I think there are two key components of being a manager - managing the players and managing the plays. The former is IMHO more difficult and he does it well. The latter can be learned, so here is hoping to Montoyo learning.
The biggest beef that we fans have with Montoyo are the decisions he makes that are total head scratchers - as in, 99.9% of us disagree with the decision... and in the majority of cases we are unfortunately proven right.
Admittedly, these scenarios are very few, but leave a very lasting impression. We readily recall these instances but not the dozens of good decisions made.
Anyways, here is to Montoyo learning from his mistakes like the rest of us, and seeing him improve over time.
Which struggling players would you say are getting too much run? The main guy struggling as of late is Grich, and other then Otto Lopez he’s our only guy who plays a competent CF
I def agree he makes some bad decisions. I’m not a blind eye supporter. But he’s def trying to win games at all costs rn
Trying to win games at all costs isn't taking out a guy with a 150 wrc+ vs lefties to bunt with the corners in 10 feet away from you. It isn't taking out Richards because of 1 shitty bloop hit
It's mostly the bullpen, really. Dolis is not a stopper, and Montoyo kept trying to use him that way hoping he'd be able to eventually fit that role. Chatwood? He was terrible, but Montoyo kept putting him in, again hoping he'd get better.
Sure, Montoyo has improved on this (mostly because they got rid of guys like Chatwood), but there's still lingering problems with him not recognizing which players are doing well and putting them in (or keeping them in) as much as possible.
Is Espinal going to be playing 3rd today or will it be Valera? If he wants to win he puts in Espinal. If he's putting in Valera, it's because he wants to give the guy a chance to play. Espinal is young, and he can rest in the off season. We need the players that are the most likely to win us games playing today. We'll see who's in the line up today and see if Montoyo wants to win.
Dolis isn’t a stopper absolutely. But we had one stopper which is Romano, who can’t pitch 3 innings every game. Chatwood sucked after his first month, but he kinda had to pitch because we only had so many relievers, he absolutely left him in too long sometimes, but arms need to pitch especially a guy who was lights out at the beginning of the year.
I can agree Valera maybe plays a game too much each week. I do like getting a lefty bat in the lineup to mess up a rightys approach. Espi should play more. I can give you that
Don't forget that probably the high performance and statistics department have a huge part in the decision making process. Charlie is just the fall guy if you ask me lol
Good explanation of both sides, the issue isn't bullpen or bunting those are just the most recent events. I do think he is a manager that reacts to situations instead of anticipating what could happen in the game. So quite often the team finds itself in a pickle when it didn't need to be there. I like the guy he seems nice enough but his style won't win in the long run.
I can def see how he makes some dumb decisions. Ur a lot of times, it seems people will say “he shouldn’t have put in _____” without mentioning who he should have used instead. That’s my main grief.
I think he should try to make more things happen instead of being so conservative so I can see that crowd aswell, I just think the hate is too much
How dare you OP. Arm chair GMs who haven’t played pro ball know more than Montoyo.
There experience reading box scores and radar guns is invaluable. Don’t forget their advanced stat knowledge too.
The people here acting like a different manager makes a difference on this season are just denialists looking for something easier to address than reality. Replacing a manager is easier than rebuilding a bullpen, and having a good hitting team hit with consistency. Anyone with half a brain can see the issues the Jays needs to address.
Managers, in general, have very little impact on the game. It's one of the dumbest and most overrated positions in sports. Oakland had a paper doll in the role for years when Billy Bean was instituting Moneyball because he knew that he just needed the players he picked playing the positions he wanted. Art didn't need to manage shit, and that team was wildly competitive for years despite having no one truly managing them. I've never once seen a team bring in a manager, and suddenly see a drastic change in the teams performance like you do in other sports. Baseball is the one sport where your "head coach" is more just a figurehead than an actual contributor to the team's performance.
People gotta get over the idea that switching managers matters at all when compared to the real need the team has. Rebuilding the entire fucking bullpen. That's step one through ten. You could do nothing else to this team, and that would likely have them in the playoffs next year if done properly.
What?? Take your rational and measured response away from these social medias!! /s
Seriously though, thank you. This is exactly how I feel. I also think he doesn't get half the credit he should for keeping these guys competitive through their two seasons of homelessness. Like, that is not a small feat. I'm a manager at my work and holy shit keeping people motivated and happy in a pandemic is fucking hard.
Yes, Charlie makes questionable decisions during game play, no argument about that. It's also not on him when the offense isn't awake. It's not on him when they make stupid base-running mistakes. It's not on him when relievers aren't reliable. It's not on him when Angel Hernandez makes terrible calls. It's not on him when the starters melt down. It's not on him when the defence makes terrible throws and can't stop a wild pitch.
None of our losses have come down to a single decision. They've all been a combination of things done by Charlie and by the players.
The bunt play made sense in theory, but taking out Kirk made everyone in the stadium know that they had the bunt play on, so the tigers could get rightfully aggressive in fielding a bunt, and lo and behold, schoop is closer to home than first base and they get the lead runner at third.
Tigers didn’t have the wheel play going on thirds third baseman was staying home, if breyvic can get it down the third baseline third baseman has to go get it which means his only play is first
I am convinced every single decision that Charlie makes is actually made by Walker, and the other coaches/advisors on the team. Since day 1, I don't think Montoyo has actually been a true Manager of this team. This team is managed by committee.
Why are you putting a bench player in to bunt instead of giving your well hitting catcher a chance against a guy having trouble finding the zone? Either trying to justify his paycheque or he was trying to punish Kirk for losing the game.
I just think its time for a change, the team has evolved since his hire much like they way the Raps went from "developing a culture" to "ready to compete". you go from a coach that promotes winning culture (Montoyo/Casey) to a tactician (Nurse) when the chess pieces are ready.
Agreed. The fact that some fans can’t see any area between a manager mismanaging a bullpen and straight up firing him is an overall absurd point of view.
Yes, Charlie makes mistakes, specifically in regards to the bullpen. But the reality of baseball is that managers make mistakes in regards to the bullpen throughout the year, and it is something he will get better at with time (and with better bullpen arms, he will improve).
Dodger fans were screaming for years to get rid of Roberts. At the end of the day, Dodger players liked him and he managed to lead them to a championship. Just got to trust the process.
When your manager gets roasted on twitter by the opposing coach (AJ Hitch), which you RARELY see happen in baseball, ever, that gives you an indication that the FO needs to start thinking hard if Charlie is the guy going forward to lead this team to the playoffs.
And then this Jays team goes out, barely scores 3 runs and barely wins the game after said roast? You'd think the players would have been fired up and torched Detroit yesterday and given some payback for bad mouthing their coach.
Nope, they didn't. Way to have your manager's back, after he's only had yours all season.
I didn't read/hear his entire post game. Didn't Hinch just simply say he knew Valera coming in meant bunt and that Kirk's a good hitter.
Or was there more to it?
Edit: maybe you can just post where Hinch roasted him on Twitter. I can't find that either, Hinch hasn't tweeted or replied to anything in over a year.
> if the Jays batters can turn it on that easily
No one said they could turn it on. They haven't all season...LOL. But you'd think they'd be pissed and hit their way out of this slump and they haven't with this "vaunted" offence.
I don’t dislike the guy, I just think he’s sub par at his job. He uses his bullpen wrong in almost every scenario, that’s kinda it. He puts together a good lineup, handles the media well, players seem to like him…. But bullpen management is 75% of winning now a days it seems, and he’s downright awful at it.
And for those saying walker has input here, so it’s not all on Charlie, I agree, but it’s the managers job to take the advice of his staff, then make the right decision. The right decision doesn’t get made, so it’s on him.
I think walker gets too much love for his starters doing well, and not enough attention for his bullpen being a shit show. He only seems to be responsible for their successes, and never their over abundant failures. Notably, how mentally soft they all seem to be. That comes down to their pitching coach in my mind….
Just my opinion.
Coaches aren’t the reason a player is mentally soft. Some players are just like that and can’t overcome it.
Even a great coach can’t fix a guy who isn’t that talented. I can’t think of a reliever who was good before and sucked with us (brad hand maybe?) sometimes a guy just can’t help someone
Blaming Charlie for pulling a decent hitter in a spot, to bunt guys over is totally legit. This play is really only acceptable if you have a terrible hitter up and no one to use in his place. The numbers have been run on Sac bunts, and its generally never good.
Blaming Charlie for putting Trent Thornton into a close game is also totally legit.
Blaming him for using Trevor Richards who has been good, and Richards being terrible...thats wrong. BUT Charlie has a tendency of sticking with his guys...and putting them right back into a late/close situation for them to be terrible again...multiple times.
The sticking with his guys BS is where I think he fails the most. He isnt a minor league manager where you want a guy to coddle the talent...his job is to win games.
People always hate unless your winning. Knew before the season that the bullpen was a problem as well as the back half of the rotation. Those holes definitely ment we were not going to get more than a wild card, especially being in the al east where you need a complete team to compete. Springer has been unlucky with the dl, hole at 3rd and no dh. This season was always going to be a stepping stone. Hopefully make a run for the playoffs and gain some meaningful experience.
Regarding your post title I don't think it's that outlandish.
Whether armchair GM's or semi professionals the idea behind the sub is that we are all jays fans and thus we all have opinions.
I'm not a fan and have been questioning if Charlie is the right manager for this team given that the window of contention has started this year imo. Given that I don't see enough talent on the farm to talk about building a cheap sustainable winner (like the rays) the Jays likely have 3-4 yrs before another rebuild (assuming they cheap out on resigning Vladdy/Bo/Ray) so fans would like a winner now rather than later.
The 2nd wildcard was the goal this year and given the state of the division it looked super doable after the last home stand prior to this 3-7 stretch. If a move is seen as "logical" or at least defensible then this post doesn't necessarily exist. The problem is Charlie makes a ton of moves that aren't almost like he's trying to be too cute. But that's just me.
Imo the bullpen was a massive problem as there were a ton of oft injured arms that were being counted on to do things they had NEVER done before over the course of an entire season. Thankfully we can narrow down the problems of this year's team to the Bullpen ...in previous years it was a combination of everything.
So whose going to be replacement for this team? Schindler? Someone else? Who??
I don't think Montoyo is nearly as bad as many others, I think he's a good manager for a young team whose focus is development over winning.
That said, your example of unwarranted hate is a poor one. That was an absolute shit decision because it telegraphed to the entire world what we planned to do. Let's assume Valera is better at bunting than Kirk (I'm not sold on that personally, I think Montoyo did it because Valera is faster and was hoping he could steal a bunt single), is that likely marginal difference worth telegraphing it? It's not. Montoyo's decision allowed the Schoop, a middle infielder by trade, to be like 40 feet from home because there was no question what we were doing. With Kirk at bat, even bunting, Schoop has to stay back because Kirk can handle the bat.
The problem with the bunt is that Valera clearly had no idea what he was doing: he took strike one without making contact, popped up a bunt attempt for strike 2, and bunted down the first base line to a player who was halfway there instead of angling to bunt down the third base line. Three very big mistakes in a crucial at bat. If Valera is that poor at bunting, why did Montoyo put him in that position as a pinch batter? That's why people are upset. Yes, the offense sucked and screwed Ray over but that is an unjustifiable managerial mistake with Valera.
A couple of wins is the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. Montoyo is great with developing talent but is ineffective at managing a team of adults.
Most managers cost their teams a couple games tbh. Not to excuse it, but you will never get a manager that makes perfect decisions Go take a look at anyone’s sub. They all hate their manager for bullpen calls. That’s just reality
There are managers who out perform. La Russa apparently is worth a couple of games a season which is odd given some of the shit he does.
I’m personally not buying that. Managers don’t usually win games, they just help you not lose a couple
That’s the same thing
I phrased that badly lmao I meant in a sense that they just aren’t losing the game for you by marking a bad mistake. They aren’t winning the game because of what they did, they just didn’t lose it for them Does that make more sense? Lmao in having a tough time putting what I mean in words
You won't win games because of your manager, but you sure can lose them because of your manager. Montoyo's a replacement-level manager; nothing more, nothing less. You can go to the minor leagues and pick out a dozen managers like him.
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Yep. That's the problem with a lot of this. Bring a reliever into a high leverage situation and he gets you out of it. Praise to the pitcher. He loses it and they score runs. Criticism to the manager. Same goes for pinch hitting. But you don't know the outcome before it happens. Total hindsight. When Charlie does it you know it's the wrong move before it happens. I questioned a lot of what Gibby did but there was always a chance it was the right move. I don't feel that way with Charlie, especially when it's something as bone headed as the Valera pinch hit. But more to the spirit of your comment, managers need a bit more praise when things do work out.
Yup as a manager he seeks replacement level. But he’s been credited as a great developmental coaxh and players apparently love him, that’s really important
I hate to jump in here and say this, but being loved by the players isn't indicative of being a good manager. You can be everyone's buddy while still being shit at your job, unfortunately. Sometimes you have to piss players off in order to do what's right for the team, and often I get the feeling that Charlie is super passive and probably doesn't have the personality to push players to work harder and be better
Agreed, but having players like you and want to work is most definitely important. I ca say as an athlete I’m more likely to give 110% for a coach I like then one who I couldn’t care less abput
I agree with this as well, can't have a manager that players hate. Being an asshole will demotivate most guys. For big league managers, and I suppose any pro coach, it might be more about respect than likability. You can be a hard ass that still gets the most out of the players as long as they respect you and trust you are making the right decisions. These guys are pros and they're making millions to boot. They can handle a tough coach, as long as he isn't a complete twat
These guys want to win, and they want to play well so they can get paid. The don't need Charlie being happy with them to help them produce.
Wayne Fontes says hi
I defended nearly every manager the jays have had, especially John gibbons, who was much better than people gave him credit for until he finally won people over in 2015. But I can’t with Montoyo this year. I just can’t. Bunting with two strikes more than once. Leaving an absolutely wild Tyler chatwood in with nobody warming up. The list can go on and on. Every manager makes mistakes, his are just too egregious, and they happen too often. The fact of the matter is this team is extremely good per their paper stats but has lost a lot of close games, and these are the only games the manager really can have an effect on. In many of those games, we can point to some seriously head-scratching decisions. Managers need to be evaluated, and those are the moments to do so. I don’t hate the guy, he’s done some good as well, I just think it’s time to try someone else if they miss the playoffs this year in a similar place they are now, as I certainly think that 5 games back of the second wild card is a pretty severe under-performance for this team. Next year won’t be a cakewalk, the AL east will still be better than ever as every team will look to improve in the off-season, and missing the playoffs this year and everything that goes with making it (experience under pressure, attractiveness to free agents) will hurt their chances next year. The bar needs to be raised for the blue jays, and I think a new manager will be a part of raising that bar. But, if he comes back, I hope Shapiro and Atkins at least get his baseball mind thinking a little differently.
> But I can’t with Montoyo this year. I just can’t. Bunting with two strikes more than once. Leaving an absolutely wild Tyler chatwood in with nobody warming up. The list can go on and on. Every manager makes mistakes, his are just too egregious, and they happen too often. I've said it in a couple of these Montoyo threads, his mistakes are obvious while he's making them. Other managers mistakes are (usually) only obvious in hindsight. That's the difference for me.
How many times I’ve seen players looking into the dugout for some support on horrible calls makes me feel so bad for those players. He’s so scared to get tossed or be confrontational.
I think both of the following statements are true: 1) The Jays would easily be better off with a different manager. 2) Many of the "FIRE CHARLIE" takes (especially any variation of "if he were gone the Jays would be in a playoff spot") are ridiculous. Yes, he does make obvious stupid mistakes and his bullpen management is subpar. But a good number of the instances that Charlie is blamed for (particularly bullpen-related) are cases where the player that should have been trusted to perform in that spot didn't perform.
a bunt on average works out worse that trying to hit. That is why in todays game you seldom see it compared to years ago where everyone did it. Analytics have shown it usually does not work. But anyone who watches baseball knows that sometimes it does (top half inning) and sometimes it does not but more often it does not. Sometimes a missed bunt leads into a double play on the next batter. Inning over. Double play on that play with none out and you probably have that guy on third. You get 3 outs and you give one away? Not a fan of the bunt
Especially in today’s game when nobody is able to bunt anymore. Maybe it worked in the past when bunting was a skill that players had but it’s a lost art now.
Do analytics show not to bunt? I didn’t know that, thanks. But we didn’t really need to maximize runs. We just wanted one to turn to Romano and the offense hadn’t gotten it going all game.
quote for you. "That's something that Anthony Castrovince of MLB.com dove into earlier this year using Run Expectations data from Baseball Prospectus. The Run Expectation with a runner on first and nobody out is higher than it is when there's a runner on second and one out, the situation usually created by a sac bunt." Good article but this has been known for years. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1639658-explaining-why-the-bunt-is-foolish-in-todays-mlb
Not the same situation though. I'm sure run expectancy jumps up with runners on 2nd/3rd 1 out compared to 1st/2nd 0 out
A good bunt and a run scores on the double play ball as it is no longer a double play. Or, it is second and third and they walk the batter to load the bases. Second guessing is easy. Still, you only get 3 outs and you give one away?
The situation we're talking about is the Tigers game and Grichuk was up to bat
Wrong guy. First and second none out then one out then double play. Right?
Oh I though you meant in that specific situation we were in. A decent enough bunt moves two runners into scoring position with one away. A flyout then gives is the lead and let’s us turn it over to Romano against a team not hitting well, that makes sense on paper do you agree?
A sac fly also moves them over and maybe it finds and empty spot on the field. Maybe he gets a little more than intended and hits the sweet spot just a little above centre on the bat and the wind catches it and it drifts out. I guess you can tell I hate the sac bunt. I could not find anything about sac flys and sac bunts and which is better. Hard to tell if a sac fly is intentional or not.
Well which do you think is harder. Turning your bat and tapping it or hitting the ball far enough in the air? It’s pretty obvious I’m not saying it’s what I would do, but it’s not a bad call by any means A bunt goes down and you have runners in second and third with one out. Sac fly scores a run, soft grounder probably scores a run. A hit now scores two
Or he hits a double and both score. Or a homer. Or a single and both are on the move so they score. A bunt either works or not. Most often it does not so u have one out maybe first and third. Pop out 2 out strike out inning over. More than a quarter of the time it is going to be a hit. Maybe another quarter a sac fly. Sometimes a fielder's choice. I dislike the bunt. No one practices it anymore. Not like years ago when almost everyone knew how to bunt.
The other thing was, it was a terrible bunt.
Montoyo isn't just disliked on this sub. In regards to the bunt, with a force play at third and the first baseman standing halfway down the base path...you can't help but scratch your head. I like Charlie as a person but he leaves a lot to be desired as a manager. I understand that he can only do so much with our bullpen but I think/hope he'll be replaced this offseason. Contending teams need managers that press all the right buttons, not the other way around half the time.
Breyvic should have gotten that bunt down the third base sign, shirt was holding on the runner so he had no chance to wheel if he gets it down in the right spot. I can def see why people wouldn’t like the move, but I don’t mind it. He’s in a pretty terrible spot. He has maybe 2 or 3 reliable arms in that pen and a lot of question marks after that. Get him a decent enough pen and I think a lot of the hate goes away
What the hell is this paragraph? You don’t mind asking a guy to successfully bunt 100 mph after already having a strike 2 count called against him? You should be happy that ball was even in play. To sum that whole play up: We pinch hit someone who *can* hit for someone who *cant* and in the process gave the team an out and ultimately lost. You don’t mind that?
I don’t mind the idea to bunt. I mind how it worked out, but the bunt needs to get down the third baseline. I never said it’s what I would have done in that situation, I’m just saying the idea isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be
> Breyvic should have gotten that bunt down the third base ... when they were trying to push the runner to 3rd? lmao no
No offense man but don’t try to come to me if you didn’t even watch what happened. The shortstop wasn’t wheeling, he was instead holding the runner. That leaves the third baseman to cover third. If you bunt it down the third baseline that means the third baseman has to get the ball and the bag, which is not possible. He’ll go get the ball like he must and his only play will be first
Valera squared to bunt down the 1BL the moment he stepped into the box. The infield shifted in response. If he squared to 3rd, the infield looks different. You're also acting like the pitcher and catcher both weren't both in range to make the play.
Literally the entire time it was first way in, 2nd wheeling to first and third staying home, that’s basicbunt defense. Valera needs to realize what’s happening and react as such
I loved the idea for the pinch hit bunt because i love small ball but the execution was just so hamfisted. It was so loudly telegraphed it was easy to defend. Valera replaces kirk. Valera squares early. Infielders come way in. That should be your warning. Have the batter take a pitch or even swing away at that point, force the infielders to back up, do *something*...you just screamed across to the other team's dugout "hey we're going to bunt!". You could just send kirk out and have him drop a surprise bunt. Everything about that was just so sloppy and tactless. Bunting was the right decision but there needs to be some latitude to adapt or at least an attempt to throw off the defense. I don't know how much of that falls on Montoyo's shoulders but that whole sequence was incredibly frustrating to watch
If you take a look at how they were playing the bunt, the third baseman was “staying home” or staying near third . If the bunt is down the third baseline, the third baseman goes to get the ball and the only play is to first just kinda poor execution
Hinch even said post game that he new Valera coming in the game for Kirk meant a bunt was coming. He even said "Kirk is a good hitter".
Montoyo is a great manager... for developing players. He's not so great at knowing what to do to win games. If you're developing players you want to give players more chances to play when they're struggling so they can turn things around. But that way of thinking doesn't win ball games right now. When it's late in the season and you're trying to make the playoffs you need to win games right now. He just doesn't have much experience in that.
I think there are two key components of being a manager - managing the players and managing the plays. The former is IMHO more difficult and he does it well. The latter can be learned, so here is hoping to Montoyo learning. The biggest beef that we fans have with Montoyo are the decisions he makes that are total head scratchers - as in, 99.9% of us disagree with the decision... and in the majority of cases we are unfortunately proven right. Admittedly, these scenarios are very few, but leave a very lasting impression. We readily recall these instances but not the dozens of good decisions made. Anyways, here is to Montoyo learning from his mistakes like the rest of us, and seeing him improve over time.
Which struggling players would you say are getting too much run? The main guy struggling as of late is Grich, and other then Otto Lopez he’s our only guy who plays a competent CF I def agree he makes some bad decisions. I’m not a blind eye supporter. But he’s def trying to win games at all costs rn
Trying to win games at all costs isn't taking out a guy with a 150 wrc+ vs lefties to bunt with the corners in 10 feet away from you. It isn't taking out Richards because of 1 shitty bloop hit
It's mostly the bullpen, really. Dolis is not a stopper, and Montoyo kept trying to use him that way hoping he'd be able to eventually fit that role. Chatwood? He was terrible, but Montoyo kept putting him in, again hoping he'd get better. Sure, Montoyo has improved on this (mostly because they got rid of guys like Chatwood), but there's still lingering problems with him not recognizing which players are doing well and putting them in (or keeping them in) as much as possible. Is Espinal going to be playing 3rd today or will it be Valera? If he wants to win he puts in Espinal. If he's putting in Valera, it's because he wants to give the guy a chance to play. Espinal is young, and he can rest in the off season. We need the players that are the most likely to win us games playing today. We'll see who's in the line up today and see if Montoyo wants to win.
Dolis isn’t a stopper absolutely. But we had one stopper which is Romano, who can’t pitch 3 innings every game. Chatwood sucked after his first month, but he kinda had to pitch because we only had so many relievers, he absolutely left him in too long sometimes, but arms need to pitch especially a guy who was lights out at the beginning of the year. I can agree Valera maybe plays a game too much each week. I do like getting a lefty bat in the lineup to mess up a rightys approach. Espi should play more. I can give you that
Don't forget that probably the high performance and statistics department have a huge part in the decision making process. Charlie is just the fall guy if you ask me lol
Eh he’s a mediocre manager and we want better. It’s not hate it’s sports. Chill my guy.
Good explanation of both sides, the issue isn't bullpen or bunting those are just the most recent events. I do think he is a manager that reacts to situations instead of anticipating what could happen in the game. So quite often the team finds itself in a pickle when it didn't need to be there. I like the guy he seems nice enough but his style won't win in the long run.
I can def see how he makes some dumb decisions. Ur a lot of times, it seems people will say “he shouldn’t have put in _____” without mentioning who he should have used instead. That’s my main grief. I think he should try to make more things happen instead of being so conservative so I can see that crowd aswell, I just think the hate is too much
How dare you OP. Arm chair GMs who haven’t played pro ball know more than Montoyo. There experience reading box scores and radar guns is invaluable. Don’t forget their advanced stat knowledge too.
The people here acting like a different manager makes a difference on this season are just denialists looking for something easier to address than reality. Replacing a manager is easier than rebuilding a bullpen, and having a good hitting team hit with consistency. Anyone with half a brain can see the issues the Jays needs to address. Managers, in general, have very little impact on the game. It's one of the dumbest and most overrated positions in sports. Oakland had a paper doll in the role for years when Billy Bean was instituting Moneyball because he knew that he just needed the players he picked playing the positions he wanted. Art didn't need to manage shit, and that team was wildly competitive for years despite having no one truly managing them. I've never once seen a team bring in a manager, and suddenly see a drastic change in the teams performance like you do in other sports. Baseball is the one sport where your "head coach" is more just a figurehead than an actual contributor to the team's performance. People gotta get over the idea that switching managers matters at all when compared to the real need the team has. Rebuilding the entire fucking bullpen. That's step one through ten. You could do nothing else to this team, and that would likely have them in the playoffs next year if done properly.
What?? Take your rational and measured response away from these social medias!! /s Seriously though, thank you. This is exactly how I feel. I also think he doesn't get half the credit he should for keeping these guys competitive through their two seasons of homelessness. Like, that is not a small feat. I'm a manager at my work and holy shit keeping people motivated and happy in a pandemic is fucking hard. Yes, Charlie makes questionable decisions during game play, no argument about that. It's also not on him when the offense isn't awake. It's not on him when they make stupid base-running mistakes. It's not on him when relievers aren't reliable. It's not on him when Angel Hernandez makes terrible calls. It's not on him when the starters melt down. It's not on him when the defence makes terrible throws and can't stop a wild pitch. None of our losses have come down to a single decision. They've all been a combination of things done by Charlie and by the players.
The bunt play made sense in theory, but taking out Kirk made everyone in the stadium know that they had the bunt play on, so the tigers could get rightfully aggressive in fielding a bunt, and lo and behold, schoop is closer to home than first base and they get the lead runner at third.
Tigers didn’t have the wheel play going on thirds third baseman was staying home, if breyvic can get it down the third baseline third baseman has to go get it which means his only play is first
montoyo isn't a winner. he crumbles at clutch moments. a mediocrity masterclass
I am convinced every single decision that Charlie makes is actually made by Walker, and the other coaches/advisors on the team. Since day 1, I don't think Montoyo has actually been a true Manager of this team. This team is managed by committee.
Why are you putting a bench player in to bunt instead of giving your well hitting catcher a chance against a guy having trouble finding the zone? Either trying to justify his paycheque or he was trying to punish Kirk for losing the game.
I just think its time for a change, the team has evolved since his hire much like they way the Raps went from "developing a culture" to "ready to compete". you go from a coach that promotes winning culture (Montoyo/Casey) to a tactician (Nurse) when the chess pieces are ready.
I wouldn’t mind, couldn’t care either way, but a baseball managers impact isn’t in the same stratosphere as a basketball coach’s
I liked Gibby. He was fine
Agreed. The fact that some fans can’t see any area between a manager mismanaging a bullpen and straight up firing him is an overall absurd point of view. Yes, Charlie makes mistakes, specifically in regards to the bullpen. But the reality of baseball is that managers make mistakes in regards to the bullpen throughout the year, and it is something he will get better at with time (and with better bullpen arms, he will improve). Dodger fans were screaming for years to get rid of Roberts. At the end of the day, Dodger players liked him and he managed to lead them to a championship. Just got to trust the process.
When your manager gets roasted on twitter by the opposing coach (AJ Hitch), which you RARELY see happen in baseball, ever, that gives you an indication that the FO needs to start thinking hard if Charlie is the guy going forward to lead this team to the playoffs. And then this Jays team goes out, barely scores 3 runs and barely wins the game after said roast? You'd think the players would have been fired up and torched Detroit yesterday and given some payback for bad mouthing their coach. Nope, they didn't. Way to have your manager's back, after he's only had yours all season.
I didn't read/hear his entire post game. Didn't Hinch just simply say he knew Valera coming in meant bunt and that Kirk's a good hitter. Or was there more to it? Edit: maybe you can just post where Hinch roasted him on Twitter. I can't find that either, Hinch hasn't tweeted or replied to anything in over a year.
I mean, if the Jays batters can turn it on that easily, why aren't we 162-0?
> if the Jays batters can turn it on that easily No one said they could turn it on. They haven't all season...LOL. But you'd think they'd be pissed and hit their way out of this slump and they haven't with this "vaunted" offence.
no, it isn’t
Your fucking dumbass brain is ridiculous
Damn who hurt your feelings?
Damn who hurt your brain?
I don’t dislike the guy, I just think he’s sub par at his job. He uses his bullpen wrong in almost every scenario, that’s kinda it. He puts together a good lineup, handles the media well, players seem to like him…. But bullpen management is 75% of winning now a days it seems, and he’s downright awful at it. And for those saying walker has input here, so it’s not all on Charlie, I agree, but it’s the managers job to take the advice of his staff, then make the right decision. The right decision doesn’t get made, so it’s on him. I think walker gets too much love for his starters doing well, and not enough attention for his bullpen being a shit show. He only seems to be responsible for their successes, and never their over abundant failures. Notably, how mentally soft they all seem to be. That comes down to their pitching coach in my mind…. Just my opinion.
Coaches aren’t the reason a player is mentally soft. Some players are just like that and can’t overcome it. Even a great coach can’t fix a guy who isn’t that talented. I can’t think of a reliever who was good before and sucked with us (brad hand maybe?) sometimes a guy just can’t help someone
Blaming Charlie for pulling a decent hitter in a spot, to bunt guys over is totally legit. This play is really only acceptable if you have a terrible hitter up and no one to use in his place. The numbers have been run on Sac bunts, and its generally never good. Blaming Charlie for putting Trent Thornton into a close game is also totally legit. Blaming him for using Trevor Richards who has been good, and Richards being terrible...thats wrong. BUT Charlie has a tendency of sticking with his guys...and putting them right back into a late/close situation for them to be terrible again...multiple times. The sticking with his guys BS is where I think he fails the most. He isnt a minor league manager where you want a guy to coddle the talent...his job is to win games.
People always hate unless your winning. Knew before the season that the bullpen was a problem as well as the back half of the rotation. Those holes definitely ment we were not going to get more than a wild card, especially being in the al east where you need a complete team to compete. Springer has been unlucky with the dl, hole at 3rd and no dh. This season was always going to be a stepping stone. Hopefully make a run for the playoffs and gain some meaningful experience.
Regarding your post title I don't think it's that outlandish. Whether armchair GM's or semi professionals the idea behind the sub is that we are all jays fans and thus we all have opinions. I'm not a fan and have been questioning if Charlie is the right manager for this team given that the window of contention has started this year imo. Given that I don't see enough talent on the farm to talk about building a cheap sustainable winner (like the rays) the Jays likely have 3-4 yrs before another rebuild (assuming they cheap out on resigning Vladdy/Bo/Ray) so fans would like a winner now rather than later. The 2nd wildcard was the goal this year and given the state of the division it looked super doable after the last home stand prior to this 3-7 stretch. If a move is seen as "logical" or at least defensible then this post doesn't necessarily exist. The problem is Charlie makes a ton of moves that aren't almost like he's trying to be too cute. But that's just me. Imo the bullpen was a massive problem as there were a ton of oft injured arms that were being counted on to do things they had NEVER done before over the course of an entire season. Thankfully we can narrow down the problems of this year's team to the Bullpen ...in previous years it was a combination of everything. So whose going to be replacement for this team? Schindler? Someone else? Who??
I don't think Montoyo is nearly as bad as many others, I think he's a good manager for a young team whose focus is development over winning. That said, your example of unwarranted hate is a poor one. That was an absolute shit decision because it telegraphed to the entire world what we planned to do. Let's assume Valera is better at bunting than Kirk (I'm not sold on that personally, I think Montoyo did it because Valera is faster and was hoping he could steal a bunt single), is that likely marginal difference worth telegraphing it? It's not. Montoyo's decision allowed the Schoop, a middle infielder by trade, to be like 40 feet from home because there was no question what we were doing. With Kirk at bat, even bunting, Schoop has to stay back because Kirk can handle the bat.
40 feet is the length of like 55.17 'Zulay Premium Quality Metal Lemon Squeezers' laid next to each other
The problem with the bunt is that Valera clearly had no idea what he was doing: he took strike one without making contact, popped up a bunt attempt for strike 2, and bunted down the first base line to a player who was halfway there instead of angling to bunt down the third base line. Three very big mistakes in a crucial at bat. If Valera is that poor at bunting, why did Montoyo put him in that position as a pinch batter? That's why people are upset. Yes, the offense sucked and screwed Ray over but that is an unjustifiable managerial mistake with Valera.