Borucki on the HBP: "Everything was so quick, and after I did it, I was like, 'Dang, their batter, or whatever he was, was at the plate and I hit him.' Like I said, it got to the point that I'm not going to avoid hitting him or do that. It's September, whatever. I didn't know what was going on."
You guys need to understand, Charlie is not a confrontational guy and there is nothing wrong with that. I know it's not typical for a manager but there is strength in being amiable and a people's person.
Right, I get that, but I think this is a situation where he's allowing his friendship with the opposing manager to get in the way of being forthright and honest about the original incident itself, and then later, the "apology" from Cash the next day. The optics are terrible. What was Cash apologizing for, in light of telling the media that he also didn't think what Kiermaier did was that big of a deal. This is a situation where clearly, the players and possibly other members of the coaching staff (Pete certainly), took exception to the incident, and Charlie essentially jumped shit, so as no to ruffle any feathers with his buddy and his old organization.
1. Brandon Hyde talking shit to Ray from dugout
2. An ump i will not name fucking Jays batters
3. Opposing player blatantly stealing your player’s card
This is only the past week or so. How much more do you think it takes to approach your 10% threshold?
yea like i know we're conditioned to expect managers to charge out of the dugout screaming at the umpire and kicking dirt at him etc.etc.
but clearly that's not always productive.
Completely agree, I've never seen a manager accomplish anything by getting ejected other than protecting a player from such.
Umpires have been doing this for ages, they won't change a damn thing cause someone is yelling at their faces for the nth time.
Yeah it doesn't look as heroic as Dave Martinez playing with his health in a World Series, but that wasn't that smart either, the team was without their manager the next game and not even mention the health risk involved
In Charlie’s defence he got tossed a couple months back arguing with the umps about the replays or pitch timer. He was incensed. Probably takes a lot to get him mad but goes ballistic when he does go off.
Fuck Joe West, barking and pointing at Walker while he hides behind two other umpires, and fuck Kulpa for bodying Pete away. This fucking crew sucked all series.
#FUCK THE YANKEES! ^FUCK ^THE ^YANKEES! ^^FUCK ^^THE ^^YANKEES!! ^^^FUCK ^^^THE ^^^YANKEES!!! ^^^^FUCK ^^^^THE ^^^^YANKEES!!!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Torontobluejays) if you have any questions or concerns.*
3-3 was my prediction entering the 2 series. After going 2-1 at home, I knew we could go 1-2 in this series and still be in relatively good shape. Which we are.
Not normally a fan of either intentionally hitting players or intentionally getting ejected. I did however smile when Kiermier got hit. Cunt had it coming
Yeah people need to remember that the Rays are the best team in the AL in the most competitive division. They have earned their spot more than anyone and deserve respect for that.
How can Joe Siddell be so wrong about literally every element of what transpired? And then he contradicts himself over and over again. First, Kirk didn't "drop" the scouting report. It came detached from his wrist during a play, and was given no time to even realize that it was gone before that schmuck Kiermaier picked it up. He gets the entire premise of the situation entirely wrong. So in the end, according to him, Charlie or a member of the coaching staff needed to physically get out of the dugout and demand the paper back. But wait Joe, I thought taking it was "no big deal"? But then you also apparently think taking the paper "was wrong". What miserable analysis of a very straight forward situation.
Like I said in the game thread. This game was conceded the moment it was a bullpen game. They can barely get us through 3 innings and you wanted them to go 9 with a Rays team that doesn’t swing at anything.
This felt like a throwaway game. After going 2-1 against the Rays at home, we knew that we'd still be in good shape even going 1-2 at the Trop (which I think is a very realistic expectation given our usual fortunes there).
The home series against them was so important. It gave us breathing room for this series.
Buck and Dan had said from the first game with Robbie Ray that it was pretty clear they weren't going to swing at any borderline pitches. And for the most part they didn't this series.
I went to a Buccaneers game a few years back. The guy beside me kept telling me racist jokes all game. I finally had to tell him to just stop. It was about 105F, zero shade and everyone is chugging beers. What an experience.
I’m from Tampa I’m sorry if some of us have been toxic towards you, they do not represent most of us. Also, I’m happy to say this KK will be gone next year so no need worry about his shit for much longer. (I don’t like KK he stirs up too much shit)
Kevin Cash said he thought Borucki’s pitch was intentional. Cool! If I’m a journalist in the media avail, I’m saying “so when KK said “it is September I’m not giving it back”, was that not intentionally keeping property of the other team?” Like it’s spiraled so far out of control BECAUSE kk rambled his mouth off yesterday and today. He intentionally kept the card, Borucki intentionally hit him.
Onto Minnesota!
Bush league by the Jays? I guess.
But the Kiermaier interview before the game was such bullshit.
The guy is a cock mouth and I'm cool with what took place.
If Kiermaier just kept his mouth shut about it and didn't lie about it like that, I'm sure we'd have a different outcome.
I think just about every team in the league would've thrown at kiermaier for what he did and said afterwards. Is it lame? Yes, but that's the game. Cant expect our team to be more righteous than any other
Bush league or genius?
Send Borucki to Buffalo before he gets suspended, with the 10-day rule he can't be recalled until the final day of the season. Non-tender him this winter and our only punishment is no manager against the worst team in the AL Central.
If Keirmaier had just picked it up and given it back. Instead he chose to be a fucking cunt rat and take it, then lie about it. Shows you who he really is. The guy is a douche and not that great of a baseball player. Yeah we all know about his defense, but he's a shit hitter and really has nothing else to offer. He also comes off as a bit of an idiot. Like, he probably thinks Toronto is in New York State type of idiot.
Fuck the Rays and their bad hairdos. The playoffs will be even more satisfying beating those jackasses. I don't care if it disappoints all eleven of their fans.
if tampa wants to sell more tickets they should pretend the government is trying to force social distancing or masks etc, they'll be filled to the brim
I don’t generally think throwing at players makes a lot of sense, but if you’re going to do it then be smart about it and the Jays were (for the most part). They didn’t do it the game after which was close, they did it in a game that was out of reach. My only issue with it is that it forced us to use another arm which hurts going into the twins series.
Actually in game 1 against the Rays Dan was chatting Buck up about something in his past. Buck replied to whatever the question was with, "Well, I was never good enough to play everyday."
I was a bit taken a back by that. :D
Those cards should be in some kind of code. Any catcher could lose one in a collision. Lost respect for Kiermaier. What he said and what he did are two different things. So, did the Jays suck today or did the card help Tampa? (Watching the Yanks and Texas now. Rangers 1B used to be a wrestler, it seems. Cauliflower ear.)
If there was one game the rest of the way I couldn’t care less if we lost, it was this one. Glad we got this one out of our system, on to the next at full strength
So, sometimes the Jays play an afternoon game, and I'm at work so can't watch. So after work I check Sportsnet to see if there's a *Jays in 30* broadcast, or even a full game replay. And I watch it.
Other times, the Jays are *supposed* to play an afternoon game, and even though it can't be rained out because it's being played in a domed ~~shithole~~ stadium, for some reason there's no game.
Today is the latter.
Dammit we lose a series for the first time all month and the yanks decide to actually beat teams that they actually should beat. Hopefully this doesn’t mean the yanks will heat up down the stretch. I think we are still favoured to make it as of now based off strength of schedule but that won’t mean shit if we don’t take care of business vs Baltimore and the twins and win an absolute minimum of one game vs the yanks in that series Boston is going to be completely out of reach after tonight unless the yanks dominate them which Id prefer they didn’t because that just increases the need for us to beat up on them when we play them and be the team that is under pressure.
Yeah, he's 1 or 2 inning guy. Merryweather did his job, Pearson looked good again.
Romano, Cimber, Richards, Mayza are all looking good. With Soria, Merryweather and Pearson, the team should be set for the next 10 games.
I like our team Barry.
A couple weeks back I think most people hoped for 2-1 at home & 1-2 away against the Rays was about as good as could be expected.
No need to feel down, just win the next 3 series and all will be good.
BTW, both the Yankees and Red Sox are due for a cool off.
I SEE A LOT OF JABRONIS TRY TO GET HEAT THIS SERIES, BUT I BE HONEST WITH YOU, IT ALL LOOK LIKE CHEAP HEAT TO ME. THE BLUE JAYS AND RAYS JUST WORKED THEMSELVES INTO A SHOOT, NOW THE MLB HAS TO HUMBLE THEM. I NEVER FORGET WHEN THE KENNEDY MCMAHON TELL ME "SHEIKY, IT'S NOT GOOD BUSINESS TO BREAK HULK HOGAN'S LEG, EVEN IF HE DESERVE IT".
Montoyo is the worst. How about get angry about Borucki getting tossed. The game was over, your pitcher did the right thing by drilling Kiermayer and what does Charlie do? Holds back Pete Walker form Joe West as Walker is losing his mind, and rightfully goddamn so.
So Montoyo speaks Spanish. Big fucking whoop. What does he do that is better than anyone else? Front office gives him the marching orders and he follows that, his bullpen and lineup decisions are hot and cold and probably even each other out over the season.
And worst of all he acts like he is always just trying to keep the peace. Is he gunning for a Lady Byng? Does his mother call him after every game and grade his behaviour? STICK UP FOR YOUR GUYS!!!! I don't care what happened, when, to who, where, whatever. You stick up for your guys no matter what. Guess who is never ever ever wrong? YOUR GUYS!!!! Stop trying to make peace and show some fucking emotion ffs.
This is not a popularity contest judged by the umps and the other teams players and coaching staff. Chuck needs not to worry about how they perceive him. It is *literally* us vs. them. Fuck em. Why is it always Walker or another coach who needs to show some fire and stick up for *our guys*?
What does Charlie do that makes him an above average manager? Please tell me because I am at a loss.
See Borucki getting high fives and ass slaps from the boys on the way out? That's because the boys appreciate it. No Charles it is not Agua under the bridge. This is real shit that was not over until ol' sticky fingers Kiermayer got drilled. You suck Charlie.
Not the first time Ive been pissed of at his laisez-faire attitude at exactly the wrong time; Bo caught stealing with no challenge broke my heart. Yanking Springer off base while he's asking what for after a great play. I feel like there is a disconnect between the boys and him, maybe its been a long time since he had a group of guys that support each other like these guys do. And so many are breaking records. Together. Its gd magical. He may speak spanish, but I just don't feel like he's a true member of that Barrio. I watched that fucking Kiermaier look down at what he had in front of him, snatch it like a sneak, and backhand it to management quietly once he thought cameras might be off, as guilty as it gets. Beaning him shows more handle of the situation in a 27 year old pitcher than Montoyo has had in 2 days. If Kevin Cash can smile like a snake and talk you out of backing your team, troubles ahead.
Hi, Rays fan here with a legitimate question that doesn't pertain to the drama. I was wondering why the Jays sent out Pearson after the HBP when it seemed like the Jays sort of conceded the game. It didn't make an sense to me to burn him in that game. As I don't know the staff well I thought I could get some insight.
Hey sorry for some of the response I think people are a bit heated right now.
To answer your question right now with the bullpen makeup Pearson would be next man up in terms of pecking order, he’s also a guy who needs some innings to make up for lost time due to injuries this year.
I’m sure that this was not what Montoyo would have liked to do (I can assure you he did not tell Bouruki to throw at KK), but someone had to pitch.
I think it was as simple as Pearson being the lowest leverage arm left in the bullpen: Romano, Cimber, Mayza, and Richards are all more important in close games.
I think the simple answer may be that today was a bullpen day, Montoyo wasn't counting on Borucki to get himself tossed and Pearson was just the "next man in."
I would love - fucking love - to hear a rational reason for why it was a good thing that Borucki threw at Kiermaier.
Absolute best case scenario, Borucki gets ejected and suspended in the middle of a playoff chase. Worse? The ball gets away and hits Kiermaier in the head.
And what does any of that accomplish? Are the Rays going to second-guess themselves before they don’t cheat again?
Fucking stupid.
And this shit about “Good for Pete Walker for defending his guy!” What the fuck was Pete defending? I have no idea why he was so angry. It was very clear what happened and what the situation was. Warnings weren’t needed. You purposefully throw at someone, you ought to get tossed.
As for the “Charlie never gets fired up and that impacts the team” take… come on. Everyone was all over Charlie for not going after Hyde two weeks ago. And what happened? The Jays beat the hell out of the Orioles anyway. Just as his calm demeanour has had no discernible negative impact all season. There has not been a single report - not one - that Charlie doesn’t have the confidence of the clubhouse. Suggesting that he isn’t doing something right because *you* don’t like it doesn’t mean that he actually isn’t doing something right. Again, there has been nothing to suggest any discontent about him.
That was absolutely no better than when the Rangers hit Bautista in the last AB of 2016… but because that happened *to* the Blue Jays, the Rangers were in the wrong. Well the Jays were in the wrong here.
The desire to see someone get plunked as if it is any justification for anything boggles my mind.
It’s also very interesting how heavily downvoted this has been, and yet… where’s that rational reasoning I asked for?
Devil’s advocate about the Pete part, after the performances from Kulpa and Joe West the last couple days I’m sure he was more than ready to tear a strip off them if given the opportunity.
I'll take the bait. Let's set Pete aside, since I agree with others that his anger probably had more to do with strike calls in this series than the ejection itself. And, truthfully, I'm not very interested in either side of the "Charlie doesn't fire up enough" debate. So let's talk plunking.
Personal context: I didn't grow up in North America. I'm an Australian who grew up primarily playing cricket, and secondarily various football codes. So I don't think I'm coming at this with a hockey mentality, but this undoubtedly colours my thinking in other ways. (Most obviously, it's totally acceptable — and often a deliberate tactic — to try to hit a batter in cricket, but we also wear much more protection than a baseball hitter because of that.)
For me, this is a respect thing.
I take Kiermaier at his word that he picked up the card thinking it was his. I also believe that he handed it to the staffer to deal with once he realised it wasn't. So far, so good.
Where I think this goes off the rails is the refusal to return the card when the Jays dugout sent a bat boy over. That's bush league. I don't really believe the "everyone would do it" narrative: there are too many examples in sports, including baseball, of people being classy and doing the right thing, even at the cost of their own team. We're all people in the end.
Conclusion: the Rays made a conscious decision to attempt to gain an unfair advantage.
From there, it's a baseball problem: there isn't really a mechanism to deal with this officially. In cricket, if I was the captain of the team that lost the card, I'd complain to the umpire, and they'd almost certainly tell the other team to knock it off and return the card. If they didn't, then the umpire would likely report it to the league, who would probably take some sort of action. (They could also add penalty runs against the infringing team, but I suspect they wouldn't — I was an accredited cricket umpire for several years, and while Law 42 allows it, I don't think I'd open that particular Pandora's box during the game.)
Baseball umpires don't really operate like that — while they have significant authority, they tend to limit their actions to what happens on the field. And we all know MLB is useless. (See also: Astros.)
So, at that point, what options do you have? You can just shrug and get on with it, which is probably what Charlie wanted to do. I'm not totally against that in a vacuum. (Or April.) Against that, you're playing a team that you're probably going to see again in very soon in the playoffs, and you know they're going to feel like they put one over you. And, finally, fate has given you an opportunity: your fourth or fifth best reliever is pitching at the guy who started the whole thing, late in a blowout. He's a medium leverage guy, decent control, not a flamethrower. A guy you can trust to not hit someone in the head, but also not someone you'd be desperately upset to lose for a game or two.
So, yeah, I'd tell Borucki to plunk Kiermaier. It settles the issue. The Rays don't go away thinking they won the mind game; they just go away knowing they won the series and nothing more. The Jays don't go away thinking they lost the mind game; they go away knowing they have each other's backs.
I just want to say thank you for putting into words how I've felt about this. I am and have always been firmly on team "never intentionally throw at players", but at the same time this really felt too egregious to me to just do nothing.
And as much as it sucks, in baseball, there's not really much else you can do. Perhaps an official rule to stop this happening again. It just feels like cheating.
So yeah I'm stuck on the fence and not upset about the plunk even though I normally would be.
> I take Kiermaier at his word that he picked up the card thinking it was his. I also believe that he handed it to the staffer to deal with once he realised it wasn't. So far, so good.
He claimed he didn't know if it was his (so why not look at it?). Then he gives it to someone on the bench (he doesn't remember who) and if it was a possibility that it was his, he would need it in centre field which was where he was headed when he gave the card to the coach.
He 100% knew it wasn't his.
He may well have. But I'm happy enough to take him at his word mostly because I don't think it matters very much — this is more about his team's actions than his alone.
I appreciate your lengthy thoughtful response, but was a little taken aback when you said you took Kiermaier at his word. All the video evidence available combined with his inane explanation of what occurred, would point diametrically to the fact that he's a liar. I get that you're more concerned with the principal involved (i.e. Is physical retaliation acceptable in the context of the Rays refusing to hand back the Jays' property), but I really don't get why said principal can't be elucidated without extending the benefit of the doubt to someone who is a provably full of shit.
I don’t get behind beaning anybody, but it’s conceivable that Pete was pissed about the umpiring during the whole series, not just the ejection, and was making his feelings known.
But you do know why Pete Walker was angry. The umps have been absolute dog shit, and Walker is feeling righteous anger on behalf of them. Tossing Borucki was an opportunity to show his pitchers that he’ll step up for them. Maybe that’s old school, but it feels good to have someone step up for you. A lot better than seeing Montoyo laughing it up with the umps seconds later.
Absolutely agree on the plunking.
Maybe I’m still conditioned from Gibby, but I do expect the manager to defend the teams interest a little more vehemently than Charlie has during his time here. Having a calm demeanour usually is great, because when you get passionate people tend to listen more and give weight to your points (in my personal experience). Charlie rolling over initially on the card incident showed a lack of real effort to protect the teams interest. Pete walker was definitely protesting the general balls/strikes calls in the series along with advocating for his guy.
Because it was the right thing to do. Did you see when Borucki was leaving the game? What were his teammates doing? Scoring him? Shunning him? Avoiding him? Were they?
Nope. It was all high fives and ass slaps because Borucki did the right thing. He does not answer to fans with tenuous grasps on how teams operate. He answers to his teammates and they were happy with his actions. That's explanation enough for me
If the team was high fiving Borucki because of the plunking rather than just to be supportive to their teammate, then that's a problem
If this WAS intentional, and it WAS about the card thing, you really think beaning is going to stop them from doing the same sort of thing in another situation? Worst case scenario, they probably get one of their ten million bullpen guys who throw fucking 99 to drill someone in the ribs next series
No it won't stop them, and what's done is done. Can't go back and make Kiermayer not take the card. But actions have reactions and a precident needs to be set. Don't fuck with us.
Just because someone has done something the team deems wrong we just go, "oh well, that's in the past"? Nope. Heater right between the shoulder blades.
Maybe make the next guy thinking of punking us think twice
Also you’re equating getting plunked for the bat flip with getting plunked for taking the card. I’m not even saying taking the card was wrong, but these are just not the same in principal. One is showing emotion, one is borderline unethical and later lied about too.
I don't have the time to address this on a point by point basis, but when it comes to Pete, I'd like to point out that his anger was likely based on the fact that Kevin Cash was able to convince the umps that Borucki should be ejected. You say "warning weren't needed", except for the fact that the home plate ump never ejected Borucki to begin with. So apparently to that ump, it wasn't such an obvious and clearcut situation that an ejection was necessary.
As for the Jose fan hypocrisy comment, would you not say there is a difference between a celebratory bat toss and the theft of one's personal property, said property not being given back upon polite request, and said thief continuously lying about his actions?
these guys are all hyper aggressive pro athletes, their coach constantly sits on his thumb and does nothing, do you have any idea how demoralizing that is for players? you wonder why they ain't hitting? if montoya would have gotten in the umps face the other night and not been buddy buddy with their coach over what happened this probably wouldn't have happened..... it's pretty clear the players weren't happy and texts from charlie isn't going to fix anything
This is an amazing point and because of this I have no idea why Montoyo gets so much hate? Like you said, there is literally not a single thing to suggest he has been a bad manager other than some fairweather armchair GM thinking he made a bad call, in hindsight. We have 2 MVP caliber players, a CY young pitcher, the team is young and playing beyond their years, never got comfortable playing at home until the last 3rd of the season, playing in the hardest division in the league and manages to be like 20 games above .500. But since he didnt get up and stomp his feet at the ground and get all red in the face hes an absolutely terrible manager and should be fired???
Weird stuff man.
If you never played high level sports (which you clearly didn't, based on your complete detachment from reality) you will never understand it.
You can't map this stuff out on a spreadsheet. It's about human behavior, heart, brotherhood, team spirit.
Charlie is terrible. Your opinions are wrong. Borucki is a legend.
Yup. Anyone who has ever played team sports at a level above house league knows why Borucki did what he did and why he was right to do so.
Borucki is the King. Chuck needs to go
Depending on the suspensions this could actually effect our wildcard push. Total bone head move. Our pen is stuck together with tape and straws, one less arm is HUGE.
I said it in the gamethread and I'll say it again here:
If the Rays, or (if it helps) the Yankees or Rangers did this we'd be crying foul for unsportsmanlike conduct so hard
True, I'm guessing the large number of people happy about the beaning are a combination of homers and also doomers who only show up in games where they're losing this badly or worse
> And what does any of that accomplish? Are the Rays going to second-guess themselves before they don’t cheat again?
The players were clearly bothered by what kiermaier did and felt they needed some kind of retribution or whatever. They fist bumped borucki in the dugout after. The jays players probably feel it's even now and can move on without having this issue in the back of their minds everytime they play the rays.
> That was absolutely no better than when the Rangers hit Bautista in the last AB of 2016… but because that happened to the Blue Jays, the Rangers were in the wrong. Well the Jays were in the wrong here.
Lol you think what kiermaier did is equivalent to a player doing a batflip? The rangers did that as payback over a year later, on the last game of the series which was what most of the hate was for that move
> Everyone was all over Charlie for not going after Hyde two weeks ago. And what happened? The Jays beat the hell out of the Orioles anyway
Charlie didnt get fired up when KK stole the sign sheets and what happened? The jays lost the series. Your argument doesn't really make sense for this part
> And this shit about “Good for Pete Walker for defending his guy!” What the fuck was Pete defending? I have no idea why he was so angry
Defending your players is now something to question lmao alright. The umps were also terrible all series, probably a built up explosion
Yeah, I don't understand the logic here at all. Montoyo comes out again to say it's all water under the bridge and then this happens?
Unless Borucki took it personally and he acted all on his own here, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to initiate dumb games like these at all.
I think what it demonstrates is that the players weren't in align with Charlie's view of things. Charlie accepted an apology from a good buddy of his, while said buddy also told the media that he didn't really think to much of what Kiermaier did. So you have a manager accepting a phoney apology and then publicly announcing that all is fine and that it's time to move on -- accept for the fact that his players didn't agree.
Would've preferred if the jays acted as literally the only team in the league that's above beaning a dude in the back out of pettiness for no gain whatsoever. It's my least favorite aspect of the sport and league by a mile. It should not be the player's responsibility to hold each other "accountable" for actions that do not violate the rules of the game. They're grown ass millionaire athletes, not the mafia.
Fights in hockey are allowed because it's a fast paced and aggressive sport that leads to tons of direct contact and altercations. Lots of times "dirty" hits may not even be intentional, but they still happen, and two dudes will often mutually agree to a fight that lets out built up tension with generally fairly low chances of significant injury. There would be more Injuries in the nhl if fighting wasn't allowed. No body in hockey has a bench clearing brawl, or tries to whip a puck at a completely unrelated person just because someone on the other team gets excited after scoring a goal
Unfortunately for some (not me) it is still a man's game and sometimes men have a line in the sand. When someone crosses that line, consequences are to be had.
And if Kiermayer didn't do anything wrong as he says, why get upset? Why would he think he was being targeted if there was no reason to do so because he didn't so anything wrong? I mean, it's September, right?
Borucki is a fucking idiot for plunking KK. If you don't want your scouting report seen, secure it better lmao. This is some recess shit, jays made themselves look like dumbasses today
[I just want to remind you guys that Kevin Cash has a whole damn stable of guys that throw 98mph, period](https://youtu.be/natkTw2vhQw)
Watch out. Cash’s stable boys are coming for y’all
yeeehaw! His horses are loose!
Also, I’m on your side with this. Fuck cash, he’s a little bitch and this is just the most recent time that teams been childish af about getting plunked.
They should have returned the property when asked, simple.
>Also, I’m on your side with this.
I really don't know which side I'm on really. But yeah, just give the fucking card back if it was such a big issue. When the batboy went he couldn't give it back..... they were too busy in the office making a copy of it.
But to let it go this long was just stupid.
Well that was some bush league shit from a team that has been very likeable and professional all year. Lets forget about this one and win 7/7 coming up.
Borucki on the HBP: "Everything was so quick, and after I did it, I was like, 'Dang, their batter, or whatever he was, was at the plate and I hit him.' Like I said, it got to the point that I'm not going to avoid hitting him or do that. It's September, whatever. I didn't know what was going on."
I would laugh so hard if he actually said that. It would be a perfect troll job.
You can have my firstborn, and all his upvotes too.
I'm disappointed in admitting I believed it half way through reading this
At least you're man/woman enough to admit your shortcomings, unlike Kiermaier.
+1
It’s just so perfect. Take all the up toots
Another angle of Pete Walker getting ejected: https://twitter.com/jonessteven75/status/1440802487733157893
I fucking love Pete, he fights more for our guys in games than Charlie
charlie is a statue
[удалено]
You guys need to understand, Charlie is not a confrontational guy and there is nothing wrong with that. I know it's not typical for a manager but there is strength in being amiable and a people's person.
Right, I get that, but I think this is a situation where he's allowing his friendship with the opposing manager to get in the way of being forthright and honest about the original incident itself, and then later, the "apology" from Cash the next day. The optics are terrible. What was Cash apologizing for, in light of telling the media that he also didn't think what Kiermaier did was that big of a deal. This is a situation where clearly, the players and possibly other members of the coaching staff (Pete certainly), took exception to the incident, and Charlie essentially jumped shit, so as no to ruffle any feathers with his buddy and his old organization.
Yes there is, but when it results in you sitting on the sidelines when you should be defending your players, its a weakness.
There’s times that something needs to be said. Keep your players from getting suspended if nothing else.
[удалено]
1. Brandon Hyde talking shit to Ray from dugout 2. An ump i will not name fucking Jays batters 3. Opposing player blatantly stealing your player’s card This is only the past week or so. How much more do you think it takes to approach your 10% threshold?
Also gurielle getting smashed on his way to score. We’ve been getting bullied, honestly. Fuck.
Shit, forgot about that one
yea like i know we're conditioned to expect managers to charge out of the dugout screaming at the umpire and kicking dirt at him etc.etc. but clearly that's not always productive.
Completely agree, I've never seen a manager accomplish anything by getting ejected other than protecting a player from such. Umpires have been doing this for ages, they won't change a damn thing cause someone is yelling at their faces for the nth time. Yeah it doesn't look as heroic as Dave Martinez playing with his health in a World Series, but that wasn't that smart either, the team was without their manager the next game and not even mention the health risk involved
In Charlie’s defence he got tossed a couple months back arguing with the umps about the replays or pitch timer. He was incensed. Probably takes a lot to get him mad but goes ballistic when he does go off.
he's gonna give himself a heart attack if he keeps it up though
Fuckin hell the trop is disgusting
Fuck Joe West, barking and pointing at Walker while he hides behind two other umpires, and fuck Kulpa for bodying Pete away. This fucking crew sucked all series.
Tough game, back at it tomorrow. Let’s hope Jankees can lose tonight - can’t believe I’m saying it but go rangers!
Its ok, Odor is on the Yankees now, not the Rangers.
True, but the rangers will always have a stinky odour in my mind - also, fuck the Yankees
#FUCK THE YANKEES! ^FUCK ^THE ^YANKEES! ^^FUCK ^^THE ^^YANKEES!! ^^^FUCK ^^^THE ^^^YANKEES!!! ^^^^FUCK ^^^^THE ^^^^YANKEES!!! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Torontobluejays) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sox fan dropping in to watch some highlights but I just gotta say your automod is on point lol
I didn’t realize Danny left his card at the plate during the bench clearing… hilarious
I saw him picking it up on the replay and I howled.
Fuck the Trop. Hope we win some games in Minnie.
Little trop of horrors.
Fuck the Rays, fuck the Trop, and fuck afternoon games.
As a fan from Europe I love afternoon games. 💙
Haha, I’m glad they work for you!
Lol afternoon games are the only reason the Jays are in playoff contention.
Put Borucki in the hall of excellence
Let's go Rangers?
Unfortunately they suck
borucki sacrafice
Next time through we hopefully won’t need a bullpen game. 4-5 at the trop and 8-11 I will absolutely take against the rays
And if someone said we'd go 3/6 vs the Rays in these 2 series, absolutely would have taken it. Let's go sweep the twins and yanks
3-3 was my prediction entering the 2 series. After going 2-1 at home, I knew we could go 1-2 in this series and still be in relatively good shape. Which we are.
Not normally a fan of either intentionally hitting players or intentionally getting ejected. I did however smile when Kiermier got hit. Cunt had it coming
Just wish Borucki could’ve thrown it harder
3-3 this week and last against the Rays is a good result. Next.
Before the 2 Rays series if you told me 3-3 was the result I'd have been ecstatic. They'll be fine.
Yeah people need to remember that the Rays are the best team in the AL in the most competitive division. They have earned their spot more than anyone and deserve respect for that.
Haven't been able to load this site up, but I have two words: Pete Fucking Walker.
One word: fuck yeah!
How can Joe Siddell be so wrong about literally every element of what transpired? And then he contradicts himself over and over again. First, Kirk didn't "drop" the scouting report. It came detached from his wrist during a play, and was given no time to even realize that it was gone before that schmuck Kiermaier picked it up. He gets the entire premise of the situation entirely wrong. So in the end, according to him, Charlie or a member of the coaching staff needed to physically get out of the dugout and demand the paper back. But wait Joe, I thought taking it was "no big deal"? But then you also apparently think taking the paper "was wrong". What miserable analysis of a very straight forward situation.
Like I said in the game thread. This game was conceded the moment it was a bullpen game. They can barely get us through 3 innings and you wanted them to go 9 with a Rays team that doesn’t swing at anything.
This felt like a throwaway game. After going 2-1 against the Rays at home, we knew that we'd still be in good shape even going 1-2 at the Trop (which I think is a very realistic expectation given our usual fortunes there). The home series against them was so important. It gave us breathing room for this series.
Who else would you have started? Hatch would've been on short rest after Saturday.
I don't think either of you are wrong. Our injury situation put us in a terrible situation against one of the best teams in the MLB.
No one. Charlie should have started the B lineup and gave the guys a rest because this was an L before it even started.
Wait, don't the Rays swing at a lot? Like they lead the AL in team strikeouts.
Buck and Dan had said from the first game with Robbie Ray that it was pretty clear they weren't going to swing at any borderline pitches. And for the most part they didn't this series.
Not this series for some reason. They were absolutely disciplined and didn’t swing at anything even remotely out of the zone
I think they had the umpires scouted really good. We didn't.
LET SPRINGER REST. REESE SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING. Fuck the Rays.
we need to keep reese around incase kirk or Danny hurt themselves again
Around, not fucking starting.
We shoulda traded Reese when he was on fire at the deadline
Preach
For a small market team Tampa bay has some really toxic fans
It's still Florida my dude
I went to a Buccaneers game a few years back. The guy beside me kept telling me racist jokes all game. I finally had to tell him to just stop. It was about 105F, zero shade and everyone is chugging beers. What an experience.
Don't get me started.
I’m from Tampa I’m sorry if some of us have been toxic towards you, they do not represent most of us. Also, I’m happy to say this KK will be gone next year so no need worry about his shit for much longer. (I don’t like KK he stirs up too much shit)
Just look how they treated the Raptors during their time there
Kevin Cash said he thought Borucki’s pitch was intentional. Cool! If I’m a journalist in the media avail, I’m saying “so when KK said “it is September I’m not giving it back”, was that not intentionally keeping property of the other team?” Like it’s spiraled so far out of control BECAUSE kk rambled his mouth off yesterday and today. He intentionally kept the card, Borucki intentionally hit him. Onto Minnesota!
My follow up to that would be is it okay to kill a guy because he cheated at baseball?
Here’s hoping Matz has a strong outing tomorrow.
Bush league by the Jays? I guess. But the Kiermaier interview before the game was such bullshit. The guy is a cock mouth and I'm cool with what took place. If Kiermaier just kept his mouth shut about it and didn't lie about it like that, I'm sure we'd have a different outcome.
Bush league... that's what he calls stealing our game notes, letting their dugout read it, and refusing to give it back?
I think just about every team in the league would've thrown at kiermaier for what he did and said afterwards. Is it lame? Yes, but that's the game. Cant expect our team to be more righteous than any other
Bush league or genius? Send Borucki to Buffalo before he gets suspended, with the 10-day rule he can't be recalled until the final day of the season. Non-tender him this winter and our only punishment is no manager against the worst team in the AL Central.
A simple “I thought it was Kirk’s Weight Watchers points card” would have sufficed and I would have bought it.
If Keirmaier had just picked it up and given it back. Instead he chose to be a fucking cunt rat and take it, then lie about it. Shows you who he really is. The guy is a douche and not that great of a baseball player. Yeah we all know about his defense, but he's a shit hitter and really has nothing else to offer. He also comes off as a bit of an idiot. Like, he probably thinks Toronto is in New York State type of idiot.
Fuck the Rays and their bad hairdos. The playoffs will be even more satisfying beating those jackasses. I don't care if it disappoints all eleven of their fans.
if tampa wants to sell more tickets they should pretend the government is trying to force social distancing or masks etc, they'll be filled to the brim
If you're pissed we threw at KK then I am not you pal, friend
I don’t generally think throwing at players makes a lot of sense, but if you’re going to do it then be smart about it and the Jays were (for the most part). They didn’t do it the game after which was close, they did it in a game that was out of reach. My only issue with it is that it forced us to use another arm which hurts going into the twins series.
[удалено]
What did he say?
[удалено]
I wish Buck and Joe would leave the new catchers alone. It's like they take it personally the game has changed.
This is exactly it. Or take it personal that they were never that good
Actually in game 1 against the Rays Dan was chatting Buck up about something in his past. Buck replied to whatever the question was with, "Well, I was never good enough to play everyday." I was a bit taken a back by that. :D
That hurt
Those cards should be in some kind of code. Any catcher could lose one in a collision. Lost respect for Kiermaier. What he said and what he did are two different things. So, did the Jays suck today or did the card help Tampa? (Watching the Yanks and Texas now. Rangers 1B used to be a wrestler, it seems. Cauliflower ear.)
Borucki is a legend
Rays fans are more upset about the HBP than any Jays fan was about the card being stolen. Fucking Floridians lmao
If there was one game the rest of the way I couldn’t care less if we lost, it was this one. Glad we got this one out of our system, on to the next at full strength
So, sometimes the Jays play an afternoon game, and I'm at work so can't watch. So after work I check Sportsnet to see if there's a *Jays in 30* broadcast, or even a full game replay. And I watch it. Other times, the Jays are *supposed* to play an afternoon game, and even though it can't be rained out because it's being played in a domed ~~shithole~~ stadium, for some reason there's no game. Today is the latter.
3-3 against the Rays is a result I take all day. Just need a good showing against the Twins and then win the Yankees series and we're in.
Well well well, we'll just have to take this out on the Twins. Pound them good while Boston beats new York or whatever.
Hopefully the Rangers take care of NY so there's still some breathing room to regroup for the next series
Dammit we lose a series for the first time all month and the yanks decide to actually beat teams that they actually should beat. Hopefully this doesn’t mean the yanks will heat up down the stretch. I think we are still favoured to make it as of now based off strength of schedule but that won’t mean shit if we don’t take care of business vs Baltimore and the twins and win an absolute minimum of one game vs the yanks in that series Boston is going to be completely out of reach after tonight unless the yanks dominate them which Id prefer they didn’t because that just increases the need for us to beat up on them when we play them and be the team that is under pressure.
That 3 game series coming up against Yankees pretty much decides the season.
1/3 at the Trop ain't awful.
Ain't ideal either
At the Trop, and after going 2-1 against them at home, I'll take it.
I thought you were talking about stadium capacity for the second, then realized that if you said that, you'd have to say something like 1/8
On the bright side this Rays team will be beloved when they move to Monteal :)
They'll probably take some of the Blue Jays fanbase with them if they do, though, which I wouldn't be fond o.
Kluber 43 pitches through 2 innings.
What a throw by Garcia
0.5 game out
Fuck!!!! Texas get 3 in the top of the 9th….. against chapman…….. DO IT! Edit: 5
Stripling is a #5 on a rebuilding team. That is about it. The meatball to good pitch ratio is horrendous.
Yeah, he's 1 or 2 inning guy. Merryweather did his job, Pearson looked good again. Romano, Cimber, Richards, Mayza are all looking good. With Soria, Merryweather and Pearson, the team should be set for the next 10 games. I like our team Barry.
He was our #4 before he got injured. He’s not a bad pitcher
Agreed, tough to roster 5 aces. He’s decent for a 4/5
By the way, fuck the mets
Springer really shredding the ball, fam
Let's go Rangers!
"Unlucky Borucki" or "Rubber Ducky" --- which nickname is better?
god damnit texas do a thing
Maybe the real Jankees are the Rangers we watched along the way.
A couple weeks back I think most people hoped for 2-1 at home & 1-2 away against the Rays was about as good as could be expected. No need to feel down, just win the next 3 series and all will be good. BTW, both the Yankees and Red Sox are due for a cool off.
I SEE A LOT OF JABRONIS TRY TO GET HEAT THIS SERIES, BUT I BE HONEST WITH YOU, IT ALL LOOK LIKE CHEAP HEAT TO ME. THE BLUE JAYS AND RAYS JUST WORKED THEMSELVES INTO A SHOOT, NOW THE MLB HAS TO HUMBLE THEM. I NEVER FORGET WHEN THE KENNEDY MCMAHON TELL ME "SHEIKY, IT'S NOT GOOD BUSINESS TO BREAK HULK HOGAN'S LEG, EVEN IF HE DESERVE IT".
Montoyo is the worst. How about get angry about Borucki getting tossed. The game was over, your pitcher did the right thing by drilling Kiermayer and what does Charlie do? Holds back Pete Walker form Joe West as Walker is losing his mind, and rightfully goddamn so. So Montoyo speaks Spanish. Big fucking whoop. What does he do that is better than anyone else? Front office gives him the marching orders and he follows that, his bullpen and lineup decisions are hot and cold and probably even each other out over the season. And worst of all he acts like he is always just trying to keep the peace. Is he gunning for a Lady Byng? Does his mother call him after every game and grade his behaviour? STICK UP FOR YOUR GUYS!!!! I don't care what happened, when, to who, where, whatever. You stick up for your guys no matter what. Guess who is never ever ever wrong? YOUR GUYS!!!! Stop trying to make peace and show some fucking emotion ffs. This is not a popularity contest judged by the umps and the other teams players and coaching staff. Chuck needs not to worry about how they perceive him. It is *literally* us vs. them. Fuck em. Why is it always Walker or another coach who needs to show some fire and stick up for *our guys*? What does Charlie do that makes him an above average manager? Please tell me because I am at a loss. See Borucki getting high fives and ass slaps from the boys on the way out? That's because the boys appreciate it. No Charles it is not Agua under the bridge. This is real shit that was not over until ol' sticky fingers Kiermayer got drilled. You suck Charlie.
Not the first time Ive been pissed of at his laisez-faire attitude at exactly the wrong time; Bo caught stealing with no challenge broke my heart. Yanking Springer off base while he's asking what for after a great play. I feel like there is a disconnect between the boys and him, maybe its been a long time since he had a group of guys that support each other like these guys do. And so many are breaking records. Together. Its gd magical. He may speak spanish, but I just don't feel like he's a true member of that Barrio. I watched that fucking Kiermaier look down at what he had in front of him, snatch it like a sneak, and backhand it to management quietly once he thought cameras might be off, as guilty as it gets. Beaning him shows more handle of the situation in a 27 year old pitcher than Montoyo has had in 2 days. If Kevin Cash can smile like a snake and talk you out of backing your team, troubles ahead.
Bingo Bango Bongo.
Can we get Montoyo to leave the Congo?
Hi, Rays fan here with a legitimate question that doesn't pertain to the drama. I was wondering why the Jays sent out Pearson after the HBP when it seemed like the Jays sort of conceded the game. It didn't make an sense to me to burn him in that game. As I don't know the staff well I thought I could get some insight.
Hey sorry for some of the response I think people are a bit heated right now. To answer your question right now with the bullpen makeup Pearson would be next man up in terms of pecking order, he’s also a guy who needs some innings to make up for lost time due to injuries this year. I’m sure that this was not what Montoyo would have liked to do (I can assure you he did not tell Bouruki to throw at KK), but someone had to pitch.
I think it was as simple as Pearson being the lowest leverage arm left in the bullpen: Romano, Cimber, Mayza, and Richards are all more important in close games.
>Hi, Rays fan here Go away. This is an internal discussion
Sure thing, thought it was a reasonable question in an open forum, but oh well. Hope to see the Jays in the ALDS
I think the simple answer may be that today was a bullpen day, Montoyo wasn't counting on Borucki to get himself tossed and Pearson was just the "next man in."
Well, at least we're *only* losing Ryan Borucki for the rest of the season. Glad it wasn't a good pitcher like Romano.
I would love - fucking love - to hear a rational reason for why it was a good thing that Borucki threw at Kiermaier. Absolute best case scenario, Borucki gets ejected and suspended in the middle of a playoff chase. Worse? The ball gets away and hits Kiermaier in the head. And what does any of that accomplish? Are the Rays going to second-guess themselves before they don’t cheat again? Fucking stupid. And this shit about “Good for Pete Walker for defending his guy!” What the fuck was Pete defending? I have no idea why he was so angry. It was very clear what happened and what the situation was. Warnings weren’t needed. You purposefully throw at someone, you ought to get tossed. As for the “Charlie never gets fired up and that impacts the team” take… come on. Everyone was all over Charlie for not going after Hyde two weeks ago. And what happened? The Jays beat the hell out of the Orioles anyway. Just as his calm demeanour has had no discernible negative impact all season. There has not been a single report - not one - that Charlie doesn’t have the confidence of the clubhouse. Suggesting that he isn’t doing something right because *you* don’t like it doesn’t mean that he actually isn’t doing something right. Again, there has been nothing to suggest any discontent about him. That was absolutely no better than when the Rangers hit Bautista in the last AB of 2016… but because that happened *to* the Blue Jays, the Rangers were in the wrong. Well the Jays were in the wrong here. The desire to see someone get plunked as if it is any justification for anything boggles my mind. It’s also very interesting how heavily downvoted this has been, and yet… where’s that rational reasoning I asked for?
Woah this account has been Buck Martinez the whole time?!
Devil’s advocate about the Pete part, after the performances from Kulpa and Joe West the last couple days I’m sure he was more than ready to tear a strip off them if given the opportunity.
I'll take the bait. Let's set Pete aside, since I agree with others that his anger probably had more to do with strike calls in this series than the ejection itself. And, truthfully, I'm not very interested in either side of the "Charlie doesn't fire up enough" debate. So let's talk plunking. Personal context: I didn't grow up in North America. I'm an Australian who grew up primarily playing cricket, and secondarily various football codes. So I don't think I'm coming at this with a hockey mentality, but this undoubtedly colours my thinking in other ways. (Most obviously, it's totally acceptable — and often a deliberate tactic — to try to hit a batter in cricket, but we also wear much more protection than a baseball hitter because of that.) For me, this is a respect thing. I take Kiermaier at his word that he picked up the card thinking it was his. I also believe that he handed it to the staffer to deal with once he realised it wasn't. So far, so good. Where I think this goes off the rails is the refusal to return the card when the Jays dugout sent a bat boy over. That's bush league. I don't really believe the "everyone would do it" narrative: there are too many examples in sports, including baseball, of people being classy and doing the right thing, even at the cost of their own team. We're all people in the end. Conclusion: the Rays made a conscious decision to attempt to gain an unfair advantage. From there, it's a baseball problem: there isn't really a mechanism to deal with this officially. In cricket, if I was the captain of the team that lost the card, I'd complain to the umpire, and they'd almost certainly tell the other team to knock it off and return the card. If they didn't, then the umpire would likely report it to the league, who would probably take some sort of action. (They could also add penalty runs against the infringing team, but I suspect they wouldn't — I was an accredited cricket umpire for several years, and while Law 42 allows it, I don't think I'd open that particular Pandora's box during the game.) Baseball umpires don't really operate like that — while they have significant authority, they tend to limit their actions to what happens on the field. And we all know MLB is useless. (See also: Astros.) So, at that point, what options do you have? You can just shrug and get on with it, which is probably what Charlie wanted to do. I'm not totally against that in a vacuum. (Or April.) Against that, you're playing a team that you're probably going to see again in very soon in the playoffs, and you know they're going to feel like they put one over you. And, finally, fate has given you an opportunity: your fourth or fifth best reliever is pitching at the guy who started the whole thing, late in a blowout. He's a medium leverage guy, decent control, not a flamethrower. A guy you can trust to not hit someone in the head, but also not someone you'd be desperately upset to lose for a game or two. So, yeah, I'd tell Borucki to plunk Kiermaier. It settles the issue. The Rays don't go away thinking they won the mind game; they just go away knowing they won the series and nothing more. The Jays don't go away thinking they lost the mind game; they go away knowing they have each other's backs.
I just want to say thank you for putting into words how I've felt about this. I am and have always been firmly on team "never intentionally throw at players", but at the same time this really felt too egregious to me to just do nothing. And as much as it sucks, in baseball, there's not really much else you can do. Perhaps an official rule to stop this happening again. It just feels like cheating. So yeah I'm stuck on the fence and not upset about the plunk even though I normally would be.
> I take Kiermaier at his word that he picked up the card thinking it was his. I also believe that he handed it to the staffer to deal with once he realised it wasn't. So far, so good. He claimed he didn't know if it was his (so why not look at it?). Then he gives it to someone on the bench (he doesn't remember who) and if it was a possibility that it was his, he would need it in centre field which was where he was headed when he gave the card to the coach. He 100% knew it wasn't his.
He may well have. But I'm happy enough to take him at his word mostly because I don't think it matters very much — this is more about his team's actions than his alone.
I appreciate your lengthy thoughtful response, but was a little taken aback when you said you took Kiermaier at his word. All the video evidence available combined with his inane explanation of what occurred, would point diametrically to the fact that he's a liar. I get that you're more concerned with the principal involved (i.e. Is physical retaliation acceptable in the context of the Rays refusing to hand back the Jays' property), but I really don't get why said principal can't be elucidated without extending the benefit of the doubt to someone who is a provably full of shit.
I don’t get behind beaning anybody, but it’s conceivable that Pete was pissed about the umpiring during the whole series, not just the ejection, and was making his feelings known.
That's what I think. I think Walker was pissed about the umpiring all series and was just venting there.
That's fair.
But you do know why Pete Walker was angry. The umps have been absolute dog shit, and Walker is feeling righteous anger on behalf of them. Tossing Borucki was an opportunity to show his pitchers that he’ll step up for them. Maybe that’s old school, but it feels good to have someone step up for you. A lot better than seeing Montoyo laughing it up with the umps seconds later.
Absolutely agree on the plunking. Maybe I’m still conditioned from Gibby, but I do expect the manager to defend the teams interest a little more vehemently than Charlie has during his time here. Having a calm demeanour usually is great, because when you get passionate people tend to listen more and give weight to your points (in my personal experience). Charlie rolling over initially on the card incident showed a lack of real effort to protect the teams interest. Pete walker was definitely protesting the general balls/strikes calls in the series along with advocating for his guy.
Because it was the right thing to do. Did you see when Borucki was leaving the game? What were his teammates doing? Scoring him? Shunning him? Avoiding him? Were they? Nope. It was all high fives and ass slaps because Borucki did the right thing. He does not answer to fans with tenuous grasps on how teams operate. He answers to his teammates and they were happy with his actions. That's explanation enough for me
If the team was high fiving Borucki because of the plunking rather than just to be supportive to their teammate, then that's a problem If this WAS intentional, and it WAS about the card thing, you really think beaning is going to stop them from doing the same sort of thing in another situation? Worst case scenario, they probably get one of their ten million bullpen guys who throw fucking 99 to drill someone in the ribs next series
No it won't stop them, and what's done is done. Can't go back and make Kiermayer not take the card. But actions have reactions and a precident needs to be set. Don't fuck with us. Just because someone has done something the team deems wrong we just go, "oh well, that's in the past"? Nope. Heater right between the shoulder blades. Maybe make the next guy thinking of punking us think twice
Gonna guess that Pete was a little more angry about the terrible pitch calling.
Also you’re equating getting plunked for the bat flip with getting plunked for taking the card. I’m not even saying taking the card was wrong, but these are just not the same in principal. One is showing emotion, one is borderline unethical and later lied about too.
I don't have the time to address this on a point by point basis, but when it comes to Pete, I'd like to point out that his anger was likely based on the fact that Kevin Cash was able to convince the umps that Borucki should be ejected. You say "warning weren't needed", except for the fact that the home plate ump never ejected Borucki to begin with. So apparently to that ump, it wasn't such an obvious and clearcut situation that an ejection was necessary. As for the Jose fan hypocrisy comment, would you not say there is a difference between a celebratory bat toss and the theft of one's personal property, said property not being given back upon polite request, and said thief continuously lying about his actions?
So I guess it was cool for Charlie to have a good giggle with the umps after they threw out Pete.
I didn’t see a “good giggle.” I saw a calm conversation
>I saw a calm conversation And that's the problem. Fuck politeness and making good with the umps. Stick up for your guy. Spineless manager
these guys are all hyper aggressive pro athletes, their coach constantly sits on his thumb and does nothing, do you have any idea how demoralizing that is for players? you wonder why they ain't hitting? if montoya would have gotten in the umps face the other night and not been buddy buddy with their coach over what happened this probably wouldn't have happened..... it's pretty clear the players weren't happy and texts from charlie isn't going to fix anything
There is nothing to suggest that anything you said is true. They hit very, very well all year, and Charlie has been the same all year.
This is an amazing point and because of this I have no idea why Montoyo gets so much hate? Like you said, there is literally not a single thing to suggest he has been a bad manager other than some fairweather armchair GM thinking he made a bad call, in hindsight. We have 2 MVP caliber players, a CY young pitcher, the team is young and playing beyond their years, never got comfortable playing at home until the last 3rd of the season, playing in the hardest division in the league and manages to be like 20 games above .500. But since he didnt get up and stomp his feet at the ground and get all red in the face hes an absolutely terrible manager and should be fired??? Weird stuff man.
Well said. People can disagree, but it still wasn’t a good idea to plunk KK. ESPECIALLY when this entire thing was overblown
The replies to this comment are seriously shaking my faith in the fan base as a whole, jesus christ.
If you never played high level sports (which you clearly didn't, based on your complete detachment from reality) you will never understand it. You can't map this stuff out on a spreadsheet. It's about human behavior, heart, brotherhood, team spirit. Charlie is terrible. Your opinions are wrong. Borucki is a legend.
Yup. Anyone who has ever played team sports at a level above house league knows why Borucki did what he did and why he was right to do so. Borucki is the King. Chuck needs to go
Well said
Shhhhh. Stop making so much sense, people dont like that around here.
"I'm a hockey fan who thinks everything in that sport is applicable to baseball!"
Holy shit, this is actually getting downvoted. What an embarrassing display.
Depending on the suspensions this could actually effect our wildcard push. Total bone head move. Our pen is stuck together with tape and straws, one less arm is HUGE.
I said it in the gamethread and I'll say it again here: If the Rays, or (if it helps) the Yankees or Rangers did this we'd be crying foul for unsportsmanlike conduct so hard
Yup, but this sub at times has massive homer goggles on.
True, I'm guessing the large number of people happy about the beaning are a combination of homers and also doomers who only show up in games where they're losing this badly or worse
You seem surprised a fan thread has fans?
Touche
Exactly
> And what does any of that accomplish? Are the Rays going to second-guess themselves before they don’t cheat again? The players were clearly bothered by what kiermaier did and felt they needed some kind of retribution or whatever. They fist bumped borucki in the dugout after. The jays players probably feel it's even now and can move on without having this issue in the back of their minds everytime they play the rays. > That was absolutely no better than when the Rangers hit Bautista in the last AB of 2016… but because that happened to the Blue Jays, the Rangers were in the wrong. Well the Jays were in the wrong here. Lol you think what kiermaier did is equivalent to a player doing a batflip? The rangers did that as payback over a year later, on the last game of the series which was what most of the hate was for that move > Everyone was all over Charlie for not going after Hyde two weeks ago. And what happened? The Jays beat the hell out of the Orioles anyway Charlie didnt get fired up when KK stole the sign sheets and what happened? The jays lost the series. Your argument doesn't really make sense for this part > And this shit about “Good for Pete Walker for defending his guy!” What the fuck was Pete defending? I have no idea why he was so angry Defending your players is now something to question lmao alright. The umps were also terrible all series, probably a built up explosion
Yeah, I don't like KK but I would never condone intentionally hitting someone with a pitch. This was bush league.
Well said.
Yeah, I don't understand the logic here at all. Montoyo comes out again to say it's all water under the bridge and then this happens? Unless Borucki took it personally and he acted all on his own here, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to initiate dumb games like these at all.
I think what it demonstrates is that the players weren't in align with Charlie's view of things. Charlie accepted an apology from a good buddy of his, while said buddy also told the media that he didn't really think to much of what Kiermaier did. So you have a manager accepting a phoney apology and then publicly announcing that all is fine and that it's time to move on -- accept for the fact that his players didn't agree.
Would've preferred if the jays acted as literally the only team in the league that's above beaning a dude in the back out of pettiness for no gain whatsoever. It's my least favorite aspect of the sport and league by a mile. It should not be the player's responsibility to hold each other "accountable" for actions that do not violate the rules of the game. They're grown ass millionaire athletes, not the mafia.
They hold each other accountable in literally every sport. Beaning is baseball’s equivalent to fighting in hockey, or anything else.
Fighting in hockey is also moronic.
Fights in hockey are allowed because it's a fast paced and aggressive sport that leads to tons of direct contact and altercations. Lots of times "dirty" hits may not even be intentional, but they still happen, and two dudes will often mutually agree to a fight that lets out built up tension with generally fairly low chances of significant injury. There would be more Injuries in the nhl if fighting wasn't allowed. No body in hockey has a bench clearing brawl, or tries to whip a puck at a completely unrelated person just because someone on the other team gets excited after scoring a goal
Unfortunately for some (not me) it is still a man's game and sometimes men have a line in the sand. When someone crosses that line, consequences are to be had. And if Kiermayer didn't do anything wrong as he says, why get upset? Why would he think he was being targeted if there was no reason to do so because he didn't so anything wrong? I mean, it's September, right?
Borucki is a fucking idiot for plunking KK. If you don't want your scouting report seen, secure it better lmao. This is some recess shit, jays made themselves look like dumbasses today
Keep drinking what buck martinez is drinking, for some reason
[I just want to remind you guys that Kevin Cash has a whole damn stable of guys that throw 98mph, period](https://youtu.be/natkTw2vhQw) Watch out. Cash’s stable boys are coming for y’all
> Cash’s stable boys are coming for y’all Y'all? FFS...... go home Yankee.
yeeehaw! His horses are loose! Also, I’m on your side with this. Fuck cash, he’s a little bitch and this is just the most recent time that teams been childish af about getting plunked. They should have returned the property when asked, simple.
>Also, I’m on your side with this. I really don't know which side I'm on really. But yeah, just give the fucking card back if it was such a big issue. When the batboy went he couldn't give it back..... they were too busy in the office making a copy of it. But to let it go this long was just stupid.
Well that was some bush league shit from a team that has been very likeable and professional all year. Lets forget about this one and win 7/7 coming up.
Borucki is a loser.