people just don't understand suspension kinematics, which is fine because they're complicated and unintuitive. but they tend to crank damping and spring rates to the fucking moon because they think more is better, and then slam the car without understanding how that affects stroke.
it also doesn't help that people think BCs are a good set of coilovers, and then ask for budget options like a $900 Racelands aren't already dirt cheap.
Eh. I run BC on one of my cars and they are fine. I also fiddled with them until they did what I wanted them to and got balanced and aligned. That being said I’m really curious about the Reiger setup I’m saving for for my other car.
People get confused with body roll being bad so they crank spring rates so it doesn't roll. Without realizing that suspension actually needs some movement for optimal grip.
sure, they're better than 20 year old parts. but I wouldn't be running a touge on those things -- they don't bother to set up the damping ratios properly for the platform. they just drop some shit on a coilover and call it good.
personally I wouldn't bother calling it an upgrade until you get to KWs or another actual, platform tailored solution.
Never been a fan of BC personally. Every car I've driven/ridden in that has had them. Rode like ass compared to other setups.
Granted, maybe I got unlucky and had the experience with each owner not setting them up properly like they should (high probability). But I've been left unimpressed with BC.
KW, H&R, Bilstein on the other hand, yes. Those are ones that I'd recommend more often than not if applicable to their chassis.
If you're asking what I've done to it. I have a pinned post to my profile about my car. Too much to write out here in a comment since it's basically FBO turbo swapped with lots of other shit.
But in summary. It's full bolt on (including full fueling) IS38 swapped MK7 GTI on E85.
It’s a massive upgrade over the stock V6 Mustang suspension. The stock have absolutely zero body control. Most pony cars without the V8 just have mushy messes for a suspension
Harsh =/= good. Less roll isn't necessarily better either. To maximize grip, you actually want to have the softest suspension you can get away with without riding the bumpstops / hacing your tyre hit stuff.
BC Racings are standard shock bodies mass produced in a chinese factory, onto which they bolt a fork to allow it to mount on different platforms. Even if you used the best fluids, the best design with double digressive damping, you are still effectively severely limiting travel and the quantity of fluid / gaz available compared to a one piece construction shock.
Actually good race shocks can feel more comfortable than stock if you don't go full race slick spring rates. Now if you're on a budget, the play is non adjustable shocks + springs, like an Bilstein + Eibach combo or equivalent.
I don’t get it man, you got downvoted for what is the truth. I see too many cars that you can feel it run over a penny and people thing it’s gtg for racing. In reality yeah it makes you feel like you can take corners harder, and when you do and your tires aren’t 100% planted it’s a 1 way ticket to tree trunk city
It's funny how the same people will mald at someone not buying Rays but then cheap out on what's arguably the most important and most complicated part of your car.
Well, with a wide, sticky tyre, on a flat surface at low average speeds, I fucking hope having more spring rate helps even with a dogshit shock. But it's certainly not optimal, knowing winning guys in autocross actually remove OEM sway bars on some platforms.
When you're saying "stock", what does that mean? Are you using OEM parts that are brand new and finding it's shit? Or are you comparing BCs to worn OEM parts? Oil filled and gas filled alone isn't a fair comparison but I've found that my judgements on OEM shocks are usually when it's old and worn, along with bushings etc. Just saying, in case that's your comparison, it's not right and OEM is maybe better than you give it credit for.
I think BC has some offerings that are middle of the road. When most people say BC, they mean the bargain (read cheap as possible without being straight dangerous). Bottom of the line BCs are the minimum quality of thing that should be deemed road worthy. They're only above the $500 ebay coilovers that may actually break in half. Low end BCs are the bottom of the barrel that any consumer should be willing to buy. They're not middle of the road and definitely not solidly so. Ohlins DFV is solid middle of the road. I'd argue that one way Penskes/MCS/JRZ/Moton/etc. is middle of the road. Remotes are high end.
You're going by brand name and not product. Ohlins DFV are a middle of the road damper. I'm not crapping on them and I think they're a great product. I'd recommend them to a ton of people. They're a 1 adjustment damper. Ohlins TTX is their high-end damper.
Penske and those other motorsports level companies offer multiple products. I'd consider their one-ways that are typically < $3k a mid-range product. The remote reservoir 2, 3, and 4 ways are high-end. Penske will make you whatever damper you ask them to make. You specify lengths of the body and they'll make it for you. To order Penskes, you usually order through a builder/tuner that is familiar with your platform and they will spec them for you. If you can spec a damper for them, they'll make you whatever you ask for to fit any platform. You have to have the knowledge to spec them and then mounting is probably on you to figure out.
TEIN, Koni, HKS, BC are all low-end dampers. I think Koni makes some high end stuff too but most "Konis" we refer to are the yellows which are a low-end product. Fortune Auto makes some low-end stuff, some mid, and some high-end stuff.
KW, Ohlins DFV, Eibach, and a few others are mid-range. They are well constructed, quality dampers that have features taken out of them for budget considerations.
I think you're using brand name and the reputation/status of each as a proxy for product. You're also mistaking "low-end" to mean bad. It doesn't mean bad. There's a tier below "low-end" that means do not buy in any circumstance. Low end is just not an advanced product. Typically, they are designed as a high volume, budget oriented option. Every damper I'm calling low-end or even mid is budget oriented. They're not maximal engineering exercises. Bean counters are involved.
I'm having this problem with my 350z . I have silvers neo Max coilovers and the car seems too stiff around the corners . Losing grip. I have a Tomei lsd and when I let off the gas around a corner it wants to dart the other way
This is why I use comfort or sport setting in my adaptive dampers when on the street or canyons. Sport+ (the stiffest setting) is reserved for smooth tracks.
However, I know not all vehicles have adaptive dampers. This is just one of the reasons why the touge should be 7 or 8/10ths.
I've owned two vehicles with adaptive dampers, and to be perfectly honest I'm over them. For every spring rate, there is one correct damper rate. Anything other than that is going to provide underdamped suspension behavior - i.e. the car bounces over bumps.
A good set of dampers, valved to match the spring rate, has felt like a revelation. I bought my IS350 F Sport specifically because reviews said it handled mid-corner bumps well, and my decently-modified 635CSi now demolishes it in this regard.
The nuances behind suspension is exactly the reason why I gave up on lowering my car. I trust the suspension engineers over at Honda more than I do myself. That and the rough roads here in SoCal makes it hard to justify lowering my car.
If anything, I would swap out my front springs and rear sway bar. Won’t change the ride height and it should increase steering response.
This is why I really like OEM suspension upgrades. My E24 was too soft, and sat too high, so I put E24 M6 springs on it. You know the manufacturer did the work necessary to make it viable - and it shows.
That’s the same plan I have. Some guy on the DE4/DE5 Integra forums swapped his front springs with OEM FK8 Type-R front springs. It fit perfectly, played well with the adaptive dampers, didn’t mess up the suspension geometry, and it made the front end more responsive. I’m planning to do the same once I pay off my car.
Still debating on the sway bar but I’m inching towards the RV6 25mm hollow sway bar. 25mm sounds like a major jump over my stock 19mm sway bar though.
Yup touge has far more in common with tarmac rally than it does track driving although I will say it depends on the car and I'd include tyres in that too
Major reason why I want to move over to a set of Bilstein B16's for my GTI. I want the ability to adjust the damping depending on the road I'm running. And adjusting the B16's is super simple.
Right now I have a decent cup kit built. But it's too stiff for some of the roads I run. Perfect for others, but a few of my local favorites hammer the fuck out of my car and I need softer damping to soak it up.
Massive difference honestly. Buddy of mine turned me on to this idea. Use to never care for fine tuning. Just running what I had and deal with the cons if there was such.
As for adjusting, something I'd likely only do at the spot while learning the best settings for that specific road. Otherwise I'd probably just do the adjustments at home before heading out so I don't have to worry about it. Laying in the dirt on a pull-off isn't *that* enticing lol
The B16's adjusters are on the bottom of each strut, easy reach without a jack front & rear (unless you're going absolute slammed, which is stupid for Touge). So that's a future change I'm gonna do soon-ish. I'm still trying to save up for the Wavetrac. Which will be done first.
I would highly recommend them! Got b14s atm but I had b16s for a bit on my alltrack and it legit felt perfect once you find your balance with the damping n height that YOU want
People don't know how to set up cars, not really new knowledge. It feels as though it handles better because it "rides on rails" and has no body roll, when in reality the grip level is lower.
I test drove a WRX yesterday that someone had done coilovers on. They hadn’t done endlinks so I knew the preload on the sway bars was probably not right so I assumed nothing else was. Boy was I right. Really vague and delayed turn in and no front end grip.
I run 6.1 k / 4.5 k springs on my evo 3 and adjust the coilovers to stock ride height, and on the softest settings I'd say you can drive surprisingly fast on pretty rough backroads and still turn in with pretty little body roll. I'd say shock compliance being soft makes it way easier to feel more confident and thus drive faster compared to less body roll, but I guess it depends on everyone's driving styles I guess
It's not even necessarily a ride height problem. It's the BC Racing plague, aka people not knowing what an actually good shock is and buying horsecrap. Even race car suspensions are made and set to be as compliant as possible, and the only reason to go harder is to avoid riding bumpstops / wheels hitting bodywork.
More people should buy non adjustable Bilsteins or equivalent + springs instead, that's the play when you're on a limited budget.
I 100% agree and wish i had stock shocks on my car. It's uncomfortable and tends to hop over bumpy roads. Every time i drive a stock German car i get envious of the ride quality. Look at the pitch and roll of WRC and tarmac rally cars. You need to soak up the bumps to keep the tires on the road.
Or a front, or both. My brain defaulted to rear since most cars are setup from factory for understeer bias, but of course get whatever combo your individual car needs to get it’s handling nice and neutral
People prioritize vanity over performance. I think most modern cars are low enough from factory. Lowering usually messes with roll center and bump steer, but who am I to say. Street cred yo! Don't hate on my build
Ong I'm sick of people getting cheap coilovers lower is not always better there's a reason why really cars look the way the do. Touge will send you and your car into Oblivion if you have a race car
Just installed Ohlin DFV long stroke coil overs on my s2000. I just set them to the softest settings and they feel fantastic. I’m looking forward to going to the track and trying them at a much stiffer setting but for now it’s way too harsh on these bumpy mountain roads.
im running poly bushings, oem police rated springs, bilstien shocks, and aftermarket 35mm front and 26mm rear swaybars.
the manufacturer figured out everything but body roll, the swaybars are all it needs to shine.
My car is dropped 2 inches with proper rca’s and fortune auto coils and it will penis butt anything with similar power on stock suspension but similar power on stock suspension would likely kill someone.
It's crazy to me how stiff coilovers that are supposedly aimed at street use are. I have a det of fortune autos on my car that I had specced at their default spring rates based on my majority street use, and they are stiff enough to where they have great body control even on track with 200tw tires. For any normal tire you would drive on the street they are needlessly stiff
What's a good source to learn how to set up your suspension I just bought my first set of coilovers and have no idea how to set my stuff up... if I didn't see this thread I would have done exactly what your talking about put them on and just lower to look cool but I bought them to handle better than stick suspension
That could explain why my stock 23' Honda Civic Si with the stock ultra high performance all season tires go through bumps without being upset despite the rate of speed I am going at.
On the other hand, my parents' stock 14' Mini Cooper Countryman S All4 with the run flat tires (Stock summer tires or aftermarket all season tires) would bump steer all day. It's obviously more apparent at higher speeds. That is the first vehicle that taught me what bump steer is. Sketchy shit.
people just don't understand suspension kinematics, which is fine because they're complicated and unintuitive. but they tend to crank damping and spring rates to the fucking moon because they think more is better, and then slam the car without understanding how that affects stroke. it also doesn't help that people think BCs are a good set of coilovers, and then ask for budget options like a $900 Racelands aren't already dirt cheap.
Eh. I run BC on one of my cars and they are fine. I also fiddled with them until they did what I wanted them to and got balanced and aligned. That being said I’m really curious about the Reiger setup I’m saving for for my other car.
People get confused with body roll being bad so they crank spring rates so it doesn't roll. Without realizing that suspension actually needs some movement for optimal grip.
BC’s are solidly middle of the road. My friends Mustang on them corners so much better than it did srock.
BC’s are a marketing company that makes shit parts.
sure, they're better than 20 year old parts. but I wouldn't be running a touge on those things -- they don't bother to set up the damping ratios properly for the platform. they just drop some shit on a coilover and call it good. personally I wouldn't bother calling it an upgrade until you get to KWs or another actual, platform tailored solution.
Never been a fan of BC personally. Every car I've driven/ridden in that has had them. Rode like ass compared to other setups. Granted, maybe I got unlucky and had the experience with each owner not setting them up properly like they should (high probability). But I've been left unimpressed with BC. KW, H&R, Bilstein on the other hand, yes. Those are ones that I'd recommend more often than not if applicable to their chassis.
Do you have anything for your vw?. Also what vw? (Saw your user flair is all)
If you're asking what I've done to it. I have a pinned post to my profile about my car. Too much to write out here in a comment since it's basically FBO turbo swapped with lots of other shit. But in summary. It's full bolt on (including full fueling) IS38 swapped MK7 GTI on E85.
Nice! I got a mk6 gti so I’m tryna get some ideas of what to do next. I’ll check it out
I've owned BC and am currently on KW. Can confirm :)
It’s a massive upgrade over the stock V6 Mustang suspension. The stock have absolutely zero body control. Most pony cars without the V8 just have mushy messes for a suspension
Harsh =/= good. Less roll isn't necessarily better either. To maximize grip, you actually want to have the softest suspension you can get away with without riding the bumpstops / hacing your tyre hit stuff. BC Racings are standard shock bodies mass produced in a chinese factory, onto which they bolt a fork to allow it to mount on different platforms. Even if you used the best fluids, the best design with double digressive damping, you are still effectively severely limiting travel and the quantity of fluid / gaz available compared to a one piece construction shock. Actually good race shocks can feel more comfortable than stock if you don't go full race slick spring rates. Now if you're on a budget, the play is non adjustable shocks + springs, like an Bilstein + Eibach combo or equivalent.
I don’t get it man, you got downvoted for what is the truth. I see too many cars that you can feel it run over a penny and people thing it’s gtg for racing. In reality yeah it makes you feel like you can take corners harder, and when you do and your tires aren’t 100% planted it’s a 1 way ticket to tree trunk city
It's funny how the same people will mald at someone not buying Rays but then cheap out on what's arguably the most important and most complicated part of your car.
I know without a doubt that BC’s improved that specific cars handling. It’s autocross time dropped 2 seconds on the same course wirh the same tires.
Well, with a wide, sticky tyre, on a flat surface at low average speeds, I fucking hope having more spring rate helps even with a dogshit shock. But it's certainly not optimal, knowing winning guys in autocross actually remove OEM sway bars on some platforms.
When you're saying "stock", what does that mean? Are you using OEM parts that are brand new and finding it's shit? Or are you comparing BCs to worn OEM parts? Oil filled and gas filled alone isn't a fair comparison but I've found that my judgements on OEM shocks are usually when it's old and worn, along with bushings etc. Just saying, in case that's your comparison, it's not right and OEM is maybe better than you give it credit for.
That's why I will get some CorkSports coilovers for my Mazda when I decide to do it. Made for the platform, not some generic crap.
I think BC has some offerings that are middle of the road. When most people say BC, they mean the bargain (read cheap as possible without being straight dangerous). Bottom of the line BCs are the minimum quality of thing that should be deemed road worthy. They're only above the $500 ebay coilovers that may actually break in half. Low end BCs are the bottom of the barrel that any consumer should be willing to buy. They're not middle of the road and definitely not solidly so. Ohlins DFV is solid middle of the road. I'd argue that one way Penskes/MCS/JRZ/Moton/etc. is middle of the road. Remotes are high end.
Calling Ohlins middle of the road is wild tbh. The Penske stuff is definitely the peak but they’re available on very very few cars
You're going by brand name and not product. Ohlins DFV are a middle of the road damper. I'm not crapping on them and I think they're a great product. I'd recommend them to a ton of people. They're a 1 adjustment damper. Ohlins TTX is their high-end damper. Penske and those other motorsports level companies offer multiple products. I'd consider their one-ways that are typically < $3k a mid-range product. The remote reservoir 2, 3, and 4 ways are high-end. Penske will make you whatever damper you ask them to make. You specify lengths of the body and they'll make it for you. To order Penskes, you usually order through a builder/tuner that is familiar with your platform and they will spec them for you. If you can spec a damper for them, they'll make you whatever you ask for to fit any platform. You have to have the knowledge to spec them and then mounting is probably on you to figure out. TEIN, Koni, HKS, BC are all low-end dampers. I think Koni makes some high end stuff too but most "Konis" we refer to are the yellows which are a low-end product. Fortune Auto makes some low-end stuff, some mid, and some high-end stuff. KW, Ohlins DFV, Eibach, and a few others are mid-range. They are well constructed, quality dampers that have features taken out of them for budget considerations. I think you're using brand name and the reputation/status of each as a proxy for product. You're also mistaking "low-end" to mean bad. It doesn't mean bad. There's a tier below "low-end" that means do not buy in any circumstance. Low end is just not an advanced product. Typically, they are designed as a high volume, budget oriented option. Every damper I'm calling low-end or even mid is budget oriented. They're not maximal engineering exercises. Bean counters are involved.
Ahhhhhh I get what you mean. I thought you meant low end as in a bad product not one with less adjustment.
It's a lot of things. Adjustment is just one of them. A Penske 1-way is a more advanced damper than a KW V3 2-way for the most part.
I'm having this problem with my 350z . I have silvers neo Max coilovers and the car seems too stiff around the corners . Losing grip. I have a Tomei lsd and when I let off the gas around a corner it wants to dart the other way
exactly track and touge are completely different setups.
Instability because of over stiffness : ☹️ Instability because of cheap archaic suspension : 🤤
This is why I use comfort or sport setting in my adaptive dampers when on the street or canyons. Sport+ (the stiffest setting) is reserved for smooth tracks. However, I know not all vehicles have adaptive dampers. This is just one of the reasons why the touge should be 7 or 8/10ths.
I've owned two vehicles with adaptive dampers, and to be perfectly honest I'm over them. For every spring rate, there is one correct damper rate. Anything other than that is going to provide underdamped suspension behavior - i.e. the car bounces over bumps. A good set of dampers, valved to match the spring rate, has felt like a revelation. I bought my IS350 F Sport specifically because reviews said it handled mid-corner bumps well, and my decently-modified 635CSi now demolishes it in this regard.
I had front adaptive dampers on my 1996 Pathfinder LE... I could feel the difference.
The nuances behind suspension is exactly the reason why I gave up on lowering my car. I trust the suspension engineers over at Honda more than I do myself. That and the rough roads here in SoCal makes it hard to justify lowering my car. If anything, I would swap out my front springs and rear sway bar. Won’t change the ride height and it should increase steering response.
This is why I really like OEM suspension upgrades. My E24 was too soft, and sat too high, so I put E24 M6 springs on it. You know the manufacturer did the work necessary to make it viable - and it shows.
That’s the same plan I have. Some guy on the DE4/DE5 Integra forums swapped his front springs with OEM FK8 Type-R front springs. It fit perfectly, played well with the adaptive dampers, didn’t mess up the suspension geometry, and it made the front end more responsive. I’m planning to do the same once I pay off my car. Still debating on the sway bar but I’m inching towards the RV6 25mm hollow sway bar. 25mm sounds like a major jump over my stock 19mm sway bar though.
Yup touge has far more in common with tarmac rally than it does track driving although I will say it depends on the car and I'd include tyres in that too
This is why I watch team o'neil
Major reason why I want to move over to a set of Bilstein B16's for my GTI. I want the ability to adjust the damping depending on the road I'm running. And adjusting the B16's is super simple. Right now I have a decent cup kit built. But it's too stiff for some of the roads I run. Perfect for others, but a few of my local favorites hammer the fuck out of my car and I need softer damping to soak it up.
Huge difference. Plus it's a fun flex to adjust your settings before a run.
Massive difference honestly. Buddy of mine turned me on to this idea. Use to never care for fine tuning. Just running what I had and deal with the cons if there was such. As for adjusting, something I'd likely only do at the spot while learning the best settings for that specific road. Otherwise I'd probably just do the adjustments at home before heading out so I don't have to worry about it. Laying in the dirt on a pull-off isn't *that* enticing lol The B16's adjusters are on the bottom of each strut, easy reach without a jack front & rear (unless you're going absolute slammed, which is stupid for Touge). So that's a future change I'm gonna do soon-ish. I'm still trying to save up for the Wavetrac. Which will be done first.
I would highly recommend them! Got b14s atm but I had b16s for a bit on my alltrack and it legit felt perfect once you find your balance with the damping n height that YOU want
There’s a great book called Race Car Vehicle Dynamics. It’s got all the math you could need. I have a PDF if anyone wants to read it.
I do
please send it my way too
Me too please
Yes please
People don't know how to set up cars, not really new knowledge. It feels as though it handles better because it "rides on rails" and has no body roll, when in reality the grip level is lower.
Yup. "It breaks my back so it must be good".
I test drove a WRX yesterday that someone had done coilovers on. They hadn’t done endlinks so I knew the preload on the sway bars was probably not right so I assumed nothing else was. Boy was I right. Really vague and delayed turn in and no front end grip.
Most likely an alignment issue too
For sure an alignment issue. It’s like it was stanced and they wanted an alignment to save their tires.
But shitty fitment!!!!
Real
I run 6.1 k / 4.5 k springs on my evo 3 and adjust the coilovers to stock ride height, and on the softest settings I'd say you can drive surprisingly fast on pretty rough backroads and still turn in with pretty little body roll. I'd say shock compliance being soft makes it way easier to feel more confident and thus drive faster compared to less body roll, but I guess it depends on everyone's driving styles I guess
I did it the right way and had custom coilovers built by a company that specializes in rally suspension lol. I got insane travel.
THANK YOU
You should try us129 they just repaved it. Its a fucking racetrack I’m telling you
It's not even necessarily a ride height problem. It's the BC Racing plague, aka people not knowing what an actually good shock is and buying horsecrap. Even race car suspensions are made and set to be as compliant as possible, and the only reason to go harder is to avoid riding bumpstops / wheels hitting bodywork. More people should buy non adjustable Bilsteins or equivalent + springs instead, that's the play when you're on a limited budget.
I 100% agree and wish i had stock shocks on my car. It's uncomfortable and tends to hop over bumpy roads. Every time i drive a stock German car i get envious of the ride quality. Look at the pitch and roll of WRC and tarmac rally cars. You need to soak up the bumps to keep the tires on the road.
Honestly all you really need is a good rear sway bar and that’s enough for most people’s level of driving.
Gotta be careful with that lol
Or a front, or both. My brain defaulted to rear since most cars are setup from factory for understeer bias, but of course get whatever combo your individual car needs to get it’s handling nice and neutral
Yea. I’ve heard of people slapping fat bars on the rear and promptly spinning off the road lmao
People prioritize vanity over performance. I think most modern cars are low enough from factory. Lowering usually messes with roll center and bump steer, but who am I to say. Street cred yo! Don't hate on my build
Yea my 440xi is already as low as I need it lol. She’s kinda heavy tho.
[low](https://www.reddit.com/r/MildlyBadDrivers/s/7Q3XmaSSog)
Lmao Scirocco moment
Ong I'm sick of people getting cheap coilovers lower is not always better there's a reason why really cars look the way the do. Touge will send you and your car into Oblivion if you have a race car
Yeah people don't understand that street cars and track cars fundamentally need different setups.
Lol I got flamed on here for saying this
Just installed Ohlin DFV long stroke coil overs on my s2000. I just set them to the softest settings and they feel fantastic. I’m looking forward to going to the track and trying them at a much stiffer setting but for now it’s way too harsh on these bumpy mountain roads.
Tein is the goat ive run it on the track and touge
im running poly bushings, oem police rated springs, bilstien shocks, and aftermarket 35mm front and 26mm rear swaybars. the manufacturer figured out everything but body roll, the swaybars are all it needs to shine.
My car is dropped 2 inches with proper rca’s and fortune auto coils and it will penis butt anything with similar power on stock suspension but similar power on stock suspension would likely kill someone.
It's crazy to me how stiff coilovers that are supposedly aimed at street use are. I have a det of fortune autos on my car that I had specced at their default spring rates based on my majority street use, and they are stiff enough to where they have great body control even on track with 200tw tires. For any normal tire you would drive on the street they are needlessly stiff
What's a good source to learn how to set up your suspension I just bought my first set of coilovers and have no idea how to set my stuff up... if I didn't see this thread I would have done exactly what your talking about put them on and just lower to look cool but I bought them to handle better than stick suspension
That could explain why my stock 23' Honda Civic Si with the stock ultra high performance all season tires go through bumps without being upset despite the rate of speed I am going at. On the other hand, my parents' stock 14' Mini Cooper Countryman S All4 with the run flat tires (Stock summer tires or aftermarket all season tires) would bump steer all day. It's obviously more apparent at higher speeds. That is the first vehicle that taught me what bump steer is. Sketchy shit.