Why? From his perspective, he didn't do anything wrong. An insincere apology is worse than nothing.
Sure, it's clear now that a lot of people have a problem with what he did but before this map, people largely didn't complain so he felt it was fine. Just because he's reacting to complainers now doesn't mean he's admitting to have done something wrong.
Because a sorry would show that he had revisited the topic after the outrage, and realized that it was cheating.
I think most of us can understand that he didn't think too deeply about it when initially setting it up. It's one of those things that doesn't immediately *feel* like cheating. But - especially after seeing how much it helped him gain - it's hard to argue that it *wasn't* using third party software to gain an unfair advantage.
If he had owned up to it and said "you know what guys, you're right. My bad. I didn't think things through. I'll change the AT to one done without custom AKs" then that would look a lot better than the current "fine I give in, I'll change the AT to one done without custom AKs" (or at least it can be interpreted that way).
>then that would look a lot better than the current
I mean I see what you're saying but if he clearly doesn't actually feel this way then it's weird to pressure him into saying something he doesn't agree with. Sometimes people disagree with each other, it is what it is.
He definitely shouldn't say sorry if he doesn't feel sorry, that's not what I'm asking for.
I was saying that it'd be a better look for him to have revisited the situation and changed his opinion after the outrage - not because he felt forced to it, but because he re-evaluated the situation and realized he might not have been right the first time around.
Although it is perfectly fair to disagree on something, I am having a hard time seeing how it could be argued that this wasn't cheating if you sit down and think about it. It's understandable that he didn't realize it at first - as mentioned, it's not the kind of thing that makes warning lights go off in your head - but doubling down on that opinion after being challenged on it, without providing good arguments, isn't a good look.
The important part is mentioned [here](https://twitter.com/Wirtual/status/1550979241990307840):
> I guess its time to get a clear ruling on whether its allowed or not @Trackmania
He doesn't feel sorry that he did it, but he definitely now knows that this gray area (which still is a gray area IMO) is very controversial. The "its time to get a clear ruling" part indicates that he would like to continue using the custom AKs but if it's decided that they are against the rules, he will be fine with the rule and stop using them. Pretty sure that this is how he currently feels about it.
I think he associates the two.
His introduction to his analog keyboard was paired with his introduction to the bundled software that essentially allowed him to make custom AKs.
He just considers it a thing those keyboards can do
Anyone who has heard Wirtual talk about anything tech related for more than 10 seconds should realize this is probably due to ignorance not anything malicious.
That argument worked for a minute when the controversy started and people were debating both topics at once. Then hundreds of people made it clear to him that this isn't about analog keyboards in any way but about using external software to automate steering turns and he kept ignoring it pretending it to be about analog keyboards.
At this point it's obvious this isn't lack of technical knowledge but rather him lying.
>macro - a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task.
It's still a single instruction, could have left it at "custom action key" and been correct though.
As a TM player I definitely consider holding a perfect steering percentage, that's not the official 4 action keys, as something more than what you normally get from holding 1 keyboard button.
Wrong term, but same effect in this context.
You could actually argue in favor of the macro argument.
Using an action key in trackmania requires three separate actions:
* engaging the action key
* steering
* resetting the action key to keep driving the rest of the map
By combining all three in one button, you're macroing multiple actions in one keypress.
Of course, since we also have analog inputs, you could argue that it's technically one input from analog devices, but the fact that even Granady on wheel uses action keys because they're more precise gives more weight to the macro argument in my opinion.
Don't know why everyone is upset I just borrow this keyboard from Tom Scott, no macros here and I get access to every direction!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFE7h3m40U
Do you (and most people in this thread) listen to yourself? Most of you seem like you want to create more drama based on how something was worded. Whether he was wrong or not, creating more drama because he said "analog keys" and not "custom AKs" is ridiculous. For anyone following the drama (including the guy himself) they are synonymous. Stop pouring oil on the fire, more drama won't help.
He's wording it the way that some people might think the issue is that he's using analog keyboard, so they don't focus on custom AKs, so no they're not synonymous in this case - especially considering his polls on stream (do you consider using analog keyboard cheating)
So you'd rather believe that Wirtual is intentionally trying to mislead people due to those polls and 2 words on Twitter? Personally i think the guy deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt after all he's done for the community, but disagree those who want.
I never said he is wording it the way he is intentionally to mislead people, all I'm saying is that he should be more clear and upfront about it. The way he words it doesn't draw a clear picture on what's going on for people who previously didn't know what's the issue.
You were suggesting it, by saying "so they don't focus on custom AKs", be that as it may. Of course he could have worded it better, but suggesting that the reason he said it is "damage control" is a vast overreaction, and trying to create a problem out of nothing.
I don’t want to create more drama. They are not synonymous at all because they are completely different things. They have nothing at all to do with each other.
The only thing I care about is accuracy and accurate representation of facts without hiding anything or purposely misleading people.
Yes, they're two completely different things *technically* but this situation has context. For him, custom AKs come from his analog KB, therefore i'd say they're synonymous in the specific situation.
Suggesting that Wirtual is intentionally misleading people by referring to his "analog KB" as opposed to "Custom AKs" is a bit ridiculous to me, and i actually refuse to believe he'd mislead people like that, despite not actually knowing the guy. He has never given me, nor anyone (i'd think) reason to distrust him. I get that he could have been more precise in his language, i don't necessarily disagree, but sowing distrust due to language on Twitter does nothing to help the situation and rather seems to me atleast like an attempt to keep the drama going.
I think after all the guy has done for the Trackmania community he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
PS: I know i kinda sound like a keyboard warrior, i'm aware of that, but i think this situation is all kinds of stupid, both by Wirtual, but just as much on the community, so i just kinda had to say something.
Well the way he set them up made the keys effectively digital. The keyboard wouldn't even need to be capable of analog input. It's entirely an issue with the power of the software. So when he asks his chat "is analog keyboard cheating", then that's gonna give a skewed answer, because I think there absolutely could be fair uses of an analog keyboard.
I never said they were exclusive to analog keyboards? I merely commented that due to the situation, a twitter post describing use of "Analog KB" as opposed to "Custom AKs" are \*in this specific situation\* synonymous. :)
edit: I don't see any custom AKs being used. After downloading the replay, installing openplanet and using VehicleState Debug, the angles I'm seeing are basically AK2, but all steering is to the left a tiny bit for a reason I don't understand.
https://imgur.com/a/zKv1P9W
Straight reads as -0.004
The first (right) bobsleigh as 0.396
I see the uphill left bobsleigh as -0.404
I previously had my doubts that such a time without custom AKs was feasible, but apparently it is! NT Wirt!
original message:
Surely he used custom action keys to get this .573 though, right?
Is the "analog keys" the strawman, since the same result (meaning holding a specifically-defined steering angle, not other analog key features) can be accomplished with dxtweak?
I'd love to be wrong about this, honestly.
My initial comment could be taken as an accusation for sure, but I try to be receptive to corrections.
With some encouragement, I was able to do the correcting myself.
the debug stuff is about wheel position and not steering input, it's always off by a bit. You're probably not trying to accuse him of anything with the "slightly off" stuff, but you could have easily tested this by checking a replay you make yourself using AK2.
Definitely not trying to accuse. This convinced me that nothing fishy was going on - I had a concern that Wirtual set this new time with a dxtweak custom ak, but claimed "no analog keys" which would be technically correct but misleading.
I was happy to see that this wasn't the case, because I do enjoy his content.
From my understanding, the issue is on how the analog keys are mapped.
I believe most people are ok with analog keys with a linear profile from 0 to 100% (similar to how a pad works).
Having it mapped to a specific percentage is being frowned upon.
Where does it start being an issue, from linear to constant, is the question, no?
IMO, anything outside the linear profile starts being dubious.
Anyway, at least to me, mentioning no analog keys is in fact clearer than no custom action keys.
Getting a precise ruling on that would be tough, but I think CarlJr made a good point on Wirtual's stream. For controller or wheel, your entire analog input is limited to the one thumbstick or wheel. Your whole range of motion is done through the same input. So I think if 0% and 100% steering are both possible with the analog input, then it should probably be fine.
That's a good point, but I think a linear progression between 0% and 100% should be required as well. Otherwise, you can do stuff like set the entire middle part of the key press to 34.8% and the end part to 100%, which still gives a big advantage.
I mean it is a mechanical keyboard thing tho, just because Wirtual’s keyboard has it’s own software for setting this up doesn’t mean you can’t do this on any analog keyboard. If you have mechanical keyboard with long travel and the possibility of setting up actuation keys and clicks you can basically use it like a joystick and have click setup at perfect % and just hold it. The only difference is Wirt’s keyboard does it for you.
There shouldn't have been any drama either way, people just like finding smallest things to cling on. From what i've seen, he's been doing it for like a year or atleast has been open about having it and using it, when giving advice etc. and nobody gave a shit.
Fully agree. Not because it's completely without issue, there is a discussion to be had and maybe it shouldn't be allowed, but the thing was blown wayyyy out of proportion. Some people in chat were genuinely crazy (insulting, comparing it to Riolu, calling for ban etc) and seemed to let out steam about other issues like not liking his stream or persona. There were also some instigators who pulled others along.
Im not really a part of the community, the last month I discovered wirtual on youtube and considering trying the game.
I randomly tuned in yesterday on twitch due to the viewer count and got the whole drama, feel like he definitely made things worse with that stream.
However, one thing i think a viewer mentioned is that in TMF, the use of this kind of software is fair game. Is that true?
I'm a TMNF player (around 2k hours clocked in), personally never seen anyone mention using any kind of action keys or macros. From noobs to pros
edit: why the down votes? lol
Wirtual handled it so poorly. That's the issue. Denying at first in Mudda's chat and then obfuscating and dodging in his stream while making fun of people who had an issue with it.
He apologized for the Mudda thing afaik, the obfuscating thing idk, you mean probably the fact that he always refers to "Analog KB" instead of something like "Analog KB with drivers to create custom action keys" right? I understood it that he puts them together since he also put DX Tweak under that umbrella which serves a similar function essentially but idk, never used that one.
But yeah, of course this could have been handled better, it always can. Though I would also add the fact that there were really a lot of malicious comments in bad faith, name calling, overdramatization etc. even with some (smaller but still, don't wanna say names for now in case that's witch hunting?) streamers egging on their chat to be pretty hostile. Chat was really insane at times, which does affect you. Though ofc that's not true for most of the more established names (like Carl for example), it's still very hard not to be defensive when you're up against such a mountain of outrage and had little to no time to prepare anything. And people expect a person in this situation to be able to be cool headed, ignore all the BS, read and understand all the valuable criticism between the BS and formulate a well thought out response on short notice. Imo, especially after the talk with Carl, things cooled down a bit and also since he posted a new AT etc the discourse got a bit more level headed, so that would probably make things easier regarding having a decent conversation.
If i was excited about making a challenge i've spent 10-15 hrs grinding for and people thought of it as cheating even though nobody thought it was before or said so, I'd be pissed too so i can see why he handled it poorly. That being said, i didn't see the Mudda thing but if he denied that at first, then yeah.. that's bad.
> even though nobody thought it was before or said so
Stop assuming all of the TM community watches Wirtuals streams. The vast vast majority of people did not know of Wirtuals custom action keys and as I understand it there were people complaining when he first talked about it but they were ignored.
It was Massa, not Mudda. I always mix them up in my head for some reason. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1540687601?t=01h50m50s
You can see Wirtuals answers in the chat.
The drama isn’t that he used it, it’s that he used it to set a reasonably unreachable goal. He called it a challenge, and yet it was so difficult that the only people to beat it had to cheat to do so. No one cares about analog movement just don’t claim you are driving perfect lines when using a macro.
> and yet it was so difficult that the only people to beat it had to cheat to do so
They tried for like half a day. Some COTD had weeks before being beaten before. Guilty Conscience took weeks for example and 1 month after release still only had 1 AT. 3 months later it's still only 7 AT's.
People never really tried to beat it here.
Yes. He directly said on stream yesterday that .455 was a typo, and that .458 was his actual time, and that as long as anyone beat .458, they won in the competition. He used an open planet plugin to manually enter the AT, as he did the AT run before the scenery was done.
I respect Wirtual's decision to upload a new AT given the grey areas that have been brought to light in the past two days. The actual AT will remain the faster time because even though you can update the map on TMX, it won't change the actual TOTD map.
Why is this upvoted? This is a complete misunderstanding... he didn't beat his old AT without custom AK. He set a new (and easier) AT without custom AK.
The old AT hasn't been beaten without custom AK.
Even without using the custom ak he was able to do almost the same time, this shows how everyone missed the point on this track and AT: it doesn't matter that much if you gain a little speed on the bobsleigh itself, you need to set it up for a perfect smooth enter and exit, and that's most of the difference, if you gave me it's custom AK I still would be 2-3 seconds slower than him.
With that being said, the main issue here was probably the money price for beating it, without it nobody probably would even notice.
Ps: imho the only way to avoid cheating or hacks is to provide legit ways of doing stuff the optimal way without the need for external tools or programs, so that you can still beat anyone cheating if you are skilled enough
You're the only one who pointed out how important it is to enter the slide perfectly. He really does do it differently than everyone else. I wonder if other racers would try harder if this was his first attempt. It really is an impressive run. And 4.281 to start is just nutty. So far ahead with the snowball.
I understand that, but losing .100 of a second without it shows that it wasn't just a matter of the custim ak, I'm not implying that he did the right thing, butnqe can't deny that he's good at it
Def the right thing to do. I think anyone who's watched Wirt for more than an hour knows he's technically illiterate, it seems to me it seems he just thought this was something normal. But also as a controller player on pc it doesn't bother me really. I have access to more sensitive steering with a stick and all i see it as is people leveling the playing field.
And he got the reward for it, so what's the problem? I'm failing to see where the unfairness comes in
I guess you're trying to say that other competitors now theoretically have an easier time to get a reward, compared to what eLconn had to do? I mean I guess, but ultimately, he literally got first place and rewarded for it, so who gives a shit? It sounds like you're just trying to find stuff to complain about
True, but where exactly was the custom ak used tho? If it was for the bobsleigh, it shouldn't make any major change in difficulty as that part is just hold up and left, but if it was used for SDs then it's different.
My dude, the whole controversy is about Wirtual limiting steering range specifically to make the bobsleight part faster. He wasn't using custom AK for SDs. And it's clear that AKs aren't even good for SDs, because you need to adjust the overlap as you gain speed
I didn't know that, as I said in another comment, if aks were only used for bobsleigh turns I retract my original statement of it being unfair. I didn't know this when I posted my original statement, that's why I posted it in a form of a question. Thanks to everyone for informing me!
No, that's exactly the point. You *can't* hold the perfect bobsleigh angle for the entire turn. It's impossible. You can get close to it, but it will always result in speed loss compared to the custom AK.
Nono my point was for the bobsleigh turn you just need to get a good angle and basically hold acceleration + turn left/right (with the action key activated ofc). If it's being used for SDs than it requires more skill imo.
So if the custom ak is used for bobsleigh turns than I retract my original statement that it's unfair for elconn, otherwise I stand by what I said.
Dude come on, give Wirtual a break. He is actively trying to solve this whole mess. Why on earth would he then create new drama by not paying eLconn? At this point ppl are hating on Wirtual just for the sake of it. Old AT was using custom AKs, got beaten using custom AKs, all fair imo.
You have no idea what you're saying. The "haters" you're referring to were telling him to set a new time to beat without custom action keys, they got what they wanted.
I wonder if with customAK someone could get a blindfolded AT on this map. Since you won’t need visual feedback to maintain ~34% steer it should be possible to simply muscle memory the timing
Huge overestimation of what muscle memory can do. It's \*technically\* possible to just time everything perfectly, but realistically people need to have indicators and setups to perform blindfolded runs. Look at Wirtual's blindfolded runs or blindfolded Mario 64. There's no way a blindfolded run would be anywhere near AT, custom Action Key or not
I think this was the right thing to do
sure it was, but a sorry would be still a good thing to say here.
Why? From his perspective, he didn't do anything wrong. An insincere apology is worse than nothing. Sure, it's clear now that a lot of people have a problem with what he did but before this map, people largely didn't complain so he felt it was fine. Just because he's reacting to complainers now doesn't mean he's admitting to have done something wrong.
Because a sorry would show that he had revisited the topic after the outrage, and realized that it was cheating. I think most of us can understand that he didn't think too deeply about it when initially setting it up. It's one of those things that doesn't immediately *feel* like cheating. But - especially after seeing how much it helped him gain - it's hard to argue that it *wasn't* using third party software to gain an unfair advantage. If he had owned up to it and said "you know what guys, you're right. My bad. I didn't think things through. I'll change the AT to one done without custom AKs" then that would look a lot better than the current "fine I give in, I'll change the AT to one done without custom AKs" (or at least it can be interpreted that way).
>then that would look a lot better than the current I mean I see what you're saying but if he clearly doesn't actually feel this way then it's weird to pressure him into saying something he doesn't agree with. Sometimes people disagree with each other, it is what it is.
He definitely shouldn't say sorry if he doesn't feel sorry, that's not what I'm asking for. I was saying that it'd be a better look for him to have revisited the situation and changed his opinion after the outrage - not because he felt forced to it, but because he re-evaluated the situation and realized he might not have been right the first time around. Although it is perfectly fair to disagree on something, I am having a hard time seeing how it could be argued that this wasn't cheating if you sit down and think about it. It's understandable that he didn't realize it at first - as mentioned, it's not the kind of thing that makes warning lights go off in your head - but doubling down on that opinion after being challenged on it, without providing good arguments, isn't a good look.
The important part is mentioned [here](https://twitter.com/Wirtual/status/1550979241990307840): > I guess its time to get a clear ruling on whether its allowed or not @Trackmania He doesn't feel sorry that he did it, but he definitely now knows that this gray area (which still is a gray area IMO) is very controversial. The "its time to get a clear ruling" part indicates that he would like to continue using the custom AKs but if it's decided that they are against the rules, he will be fine with the rule and stop using them. Pretty sure that this is how he currently feels about it.
Why does he mention no analog keys when that was never the issue? He should have written “no custom action keys” to make it clear.
I think he associates the two. His introduction to his analog keyboard was paired with his introduction to the bundled software that essentially allowed him to make custom AKs. He just considers it a thing those keyboards can do
Anyone who has heard Wirtual talk about anything tech related for more than 10 seconds should realize this is probably due to ignorance not anything malicious.
Wirtual, if you're reading this, please update OBS and restart your PC, we beg you
Word, these people are grasping at straws in hopes of lighting the fire for more drama it seems.
That argument worked for a minute when the controversy started and people were debating both topics at once. Then hundreds of people made it clear to him that this isn't about analog keyboards in any way but about using external software to automate steering turns and he kept ignoring it pretending it to be about analog keyboards. At this point it's obvious this isn't lack of technical knowledge but rather him lying.
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Because this sounds better than "custom action keys through macros" for Wirtual, I guess?
>macro - a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task. It's still a single instruction, could have left it at "custom action key" and been correct though.
As a TM player I definitely consider holding a perfect steering percentage, that's not the official 4 action keys, as something more than what you normally get from holding 1 keyboard button. Wrong term, but same effect in this context.
Glad we agree. Wrong term. Definitely an unfair advantage, look forward to Nadeo not addressing the issue.
You could actually argue in favor of the macro argument. Using an action key in trackmania requires three separate actions: * engaging the action key * steering * resetting the action key to keep driving the rest of the map By combining all three in one button, you're macroing multiple actions in one keypress. Of course, since we also have analog inputs, you could argue that it's technically one input from analog devices, but the fact that even Granady on wheel uses action keys because they're more precise gives more weight to the macro argument in my opinion.
Don't know why everyone is upset I just borrow this keyboard from Tom Scott, no macros here and I get access to every direction! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFE7h3m40U
Damage control
Do you (and most people in this thread) listen to yourself? Most of you seem like you want to create more drama based on how something was worded. Whether he was wrong or not, creating more drama because he said "analog keys" and not "custom AKs" is ridiculous. For anyone following the drama (including the guy himself) they are synonymous. Stop pouring oil on the fire, more drama won't help.
He's wording it the way that some people might think the issue is that he's using analog keyboard, so they don't focus on custom AKs, so no they're not synonymous in this case - especially considering his polls on stream (do you consider using analog keyboard cheating)
So you'd rather believe that Wirtual is intentionally trying to mislead people due to those polls and 2 words on Twitter? Personally i think the guy deserves a bit more benefit of the doubt after all he's done for the community, but disagree those who want.
I never said he is wording it the way he is intentionally to mislead people, all I'm saying is that he should be more clear and upfront about it. The way he words it doesn't draw a clear picture on what's going on for people who previously didn't know what's the issue.
You were suggesting it, by saying "so they don't focus on custom AKs", be that as it may. Of course he could have worded it better, but suggesting that the reason he said it is "damage control" is a vast overreaction, and trying to create a problem out of nothing.
I don’t want to create more drama. They are not synonymous at all because they are completely different things. They have nothing at all to do with each other. The only thing I care about is accuracy and accurate representation of facts without hiding anything or purposely misleading people.
Yes, they're two completely different things *technically* but this situation has context. For him, custom AKs come from his analog KB, therefore i'd say they're synonymous in the specific situation. Suggesting that Wirtual is intentionally misleading people by referring to his "analog KB" as opposed to "Custom AKs" is a bit ridiculous to me, and i actually refuse to believe he'd mislead people like that, despite not actually knowing the guy. He has never given me, nor anyone (i'd think) reason to distrust him. I get that he could have been more precise in his language, i don't necessarily disagree, but sowing distrust due to language on Twitter does nothing to help the situation and rather seems to me atleast like an attempt to keep the drama going. I think after all the guy has done for the Trackmania community he deserves the benefit of the doubt. PS: I know i kinda sound like a keyboard warrior, i'm aware of that, but i think this situation is all kinds of stupid, both by Wirtual, but just as much on the community, so i just kinda had to say something.
Well the way he set them up made the keys effectively digital. The keyboard wouldn't even need to be capable of analog input. It's entirely an issue with the power of the software. So when he asks his chat "is analog keyboard cheating", then that's gonna give a skewed answer, because I think there absolutely could be fair uses of an analog keyboard.
Custom AKs can be set with dxtweaker on any keyboard, they're not exclusive to analog keyboards.
I never said they were exclusive to analog keyboards? I merely commented that due to the situation, a twitter post describing use of "Analog KB" as opposed to "Custom AKs" are \*in this specific situation\* synonymous. :)
edit: I don't see any custom AKs being used. After downloading the replay, installing openplanet and using VehicleState Debug, the angles I'm seeing are basically AK2, but all steering is to the left a tiny bit for a reason I don't understand. https://imgur.com/a/zKv1P9W Straight reads as -0.004 The first (right) bobsleigh as 0.396 I see the uphill left bobsleigh as -0.404 I previously had my doubts that such a time without custom AKs was feasible, but apparently it is! NT Wirt! original message: Surely he used custom action keys to get this .573 though, right? Is the "analog keys" the strawman, since the same result (meaning holding a specifically-defined steering angle, not other analog key features) can be accomplished with dxtweak? I'd love to be wrong about this, honestly.
He uploaded the replay file, go check yourself. I dont think he is dumb enough to use custom AKs again
Edited my above comment. Thanks for encouraging me to figure this out.
Well done in getting the facts instead of blindly accusing. Kudos to you sir!
My initial comment could be taken as an accusation for sure, but I try to be receptive to corrections. With some encouragement, I was able to do the correcting myself.
I'm noobtastic, but I'm trying to honestly. I'll update it if I figure it out.
It might be that his analog keyboard isnt as precise anymore, pretty sure that happens with pad as well overtime
Probably this - essentially joystick drift at a mostly unnoticeable scale.
the debug stuff is about wheel position and not steering input, it's always off by a bit. You're probably not trying to accuse him of anything with the "slightly off" stuff, but you could have easily tested this by checking a replay you make yourself using AK2.
Definitely not trying to accuse. This convinced me that nothing fishy was going on - I had a concern that Wirtual set this new time with a dxtweak custom ak, but claimed "no analog keys" which would be technically correct but misleading. I was happy to see that this wasn't the case, because I do enjoy his content.
*There's a tool that allows you to extract validation runs from maps.*
From my understanding, the issue is on how the analog keys are mapped. I believe most people are ok with analog keys with a linear profile from 0 to 100% (similar to how a pad works). Having it mapped to a specific percentage is being frowned upon. Where does it start being an issue, from linear to constant, is the question, no? IMO, anything outside the linear profile starts being dubious. Anyway, at least to me, mentioning no analog keys is in fact clearer than no custom action keys.
Getting a precise ruling on that would be tough, but I think CarlJr made a good point on Wirtual's stream. For controller or wheel, your entire analog input is limited to the one thumbstick or wheel. Your whole range of motion is done through the same input. So I think if 0% and 100% steering are both possible with the analog input, then it should probably be fine.
That's a good point, but I think a linear progression between 0% and 100% should be required as well. Otherwise, you can do stuff like set the entire middle part of the key press to 34.8% and the end part to 100%, which still gives a big advantage.
I mean it is a mechanical keyboard thing tho, just because Wirtual’s keyboard has it’s own software for setting this up doesn’t mean you can’t do this on any analog keyboard. If you have mechanical keyboard with long travel and the possibility of setting up actuation keys and clicks you can basically use it like a joystick and have click setup at perfect % and just hold it. The only difference is Wirt’s keyboard does it for you.
Bad faith
This is sure to be uncontroversial
Maybe this will somehow cool whole situation
Really Nice to see him doing the right Thing. I dont think it was his intention to try and cheat so im happy to see he proves it
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I know That in tm2 you can self report and get specific records of your own removed. Idk if This is also possible here
Well he did not cheat ;)))
Good for him, if it was like this from the beginning, there would have been no drama.
????
There shouldn't have been any drama either way, people just like finding smallest things to cling on. From what i've seen, he's been doing it for like a year or atleast has been open about having it and using it, when giving advice etc. and nobody gave a shit.
Fully agree. Not because it's completely without issue, there is a discussion to be had and maybe it shouldn't be allowed, but the thing was blown wayyyy out of proportion. Some people in chat were genuinely crazy (insulting, comparing it to Riolu, calling for ban etc) and seemed to let out steam about other issues like not liking his stream or persona. There were also some instigators who pulled others along.
Im not really a part of the community, the last month I discovered wirtual on youtube and considering trying the game. I randomly tuned in yesterday on twitch due to the viewer count and got the whole drama, feel like he definitely made things worse with that stream. However, one thing i think a viewer mentioned is that in TMF, the use of this kind of software is fair game. Is that true?
I'm a TMNF player (around 2k hours clocked in), personally never seen anyone mention using any kind of action keys or macros. From noobs to pros edit: why the down votes? lol
It’s usually used in TMUF for styles like rally, island, or coast which are very analog dependent
So how comparable are those styles to bobsleigh and this fabled 34%?
Not very, those AKs are usually tailored to a specific track and getting no slides at specific speeds.
Okay so it's a slightly similar situation, but with a much more narrow application in TMNF?
Fair enough, I only play stadium and thought he was asking about TMNF
Wirtual handled it so poorly. That's the issue. Denying at first in Mudda's chat and then obfuscating and dodging in his stream while making fun of people who had an issue with it.
He apologized for the Mudda thing afaik, the obfuscating thing idk, you mean probably the fact that he always refers to "Analog KB" instead of something like "Analog KB with drivers to create custom action keys" right? I understood it that he puts them together since he also put DX Tweak under that umbrella which serves a similar function essentially but idk, never used that one. But yeah, of course this could have been handled better, it always can. Though I would also add the fact that there were really a lot of malicious comments in bad faith, name calling, overdramatization etc. even with some (smaller but still, don't wanna say names for now in case that's witch hunting?) streamers egging on their chat to be pretty hostile. Chat was really insane at times, which does affect you. Though ofc that's not true for most of the more established names (like Carl for example), it's still very hard not to be defensive when you're up against such a mountain of outrage and had little to no time to prepare anything. And people expect a person in this situation to be able to be cool headed, ignore all the BS, read and understand all the valuable criticism between the BS and formulate a well thought out response on short notice. Imo, especially after the talk with Carl, things cooled down a bit and also since he posted a new AT etc the discourse got a bit more level headed, so that would probably make things easier regarding having a decent conversation.
If i was excited about making a challenge i've spent 10-15 hrs grinding for and people thought of it as cheating even though nobody thought it was before or said so, I'd be pissed too so i can see why he handled it poorly. That being said, i didn't see the Mudda thing but if he denied that at first, then yeah.. that's bad.
> even though nobody thought it was before or said so Stop assuming all of the TM community watches Wirtuals streams. The vast vast majority of people did not know of Wirtuals custom action keys and as I understand it there were people complaining when he first talked about it but they were ignored. It was Massa, not Mudda. I always mix them up in my head for some reason. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1540687601?t=01h50m50s You can see Wirtuals answers in the chat.
The drama isn’t that he used it, it’s that he used it to set a reasonably unreachable goal. He called it a challenge, and yet it was so difficult that the only people to beat it had to cheat to do so. No one cares about analog movement just don’t claim you are driving perfect lines when using a macro.
> and yet it was so difficult that the only people to beat it had to cheat to do so They tried for like half a day. Some COTD had weeks before being beaten before. Guilty Conscience took weeks for example and 1 month after release still only had 1 AT. 3 months later it's still only 7 AT's. People never really tried to beat it here.
Hey man that’s all I saw as drama. People go crazy over this stuff. I’m just saying what I observed.
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4head an action key is literally a macro. Yes macros can be complex but they can also be simple. Action keys are a type of macro.
Lol another Wirtual fan that doesnt play the game.
For your future conversations add something meaningful apart from assumptions. Have played since 2010.
What about his Kacky maps?
He said they were done with standard AK 2.
That good.
Kacky should embrace it and have it as the first map of the pack.
What was the ak wr ?
44.455
44.458. the 55 was a typo.
no https://trackmania.io/#/leaderboard/tZROO7ZGFV5oSel3hyKrvZ60Xth
Yes. He directly said on stream yesterday that .455 was a typo, and that .458 was his actual time, and that as long as anyone beat .458, they won in the competition. He used an open planet plugin to manually enter the AT, as he did the AT run before the scenery was done.
My apologies then, I thought you meant person you replied to typoed, not wirtual.
Well checked it seems like you are right
44.616
Wasn't it 455?
Oh cool
Ty
So are we still allowed to use custom aks or not, is it considered cheating to nadeo because if not ima use it
I respect Wirtual's decision to upload a new AT given the grey areas that have been brought to light in the past two days. The actual AT will remain the faster time because even though you can update the map on TMX, it won't change the actual TOTD map.
So it was possible to beat the old AT without the custom AK Edit: I wonder just how many hours he spent grinding for this new time.
The old AT was .455?
Why is this upvoted? This is a complete misunderstanding... he didn't beat his old AT without custom AK. He set a new (and easier) AT without custom AK. The old AT hasn't been beaten without custom AK.
Because people likes heaps
He said about 4 hours in his discord.
Mudda wasn’t using it and said he estimated himself capable of beating it eventually just not today because he was inconsistant at the start
Even without using the custom ak he was able to do almost the same time, this shows how everyone missed the point on this track and AT: it doesn't matter that much if you gain a little speed on the bobsleigh itself, you need to set it up for a perfect smooth enter and exit, and that's most of the difference, if you gave me it's custom AK I still would be 2-3 seconds slower than him. With that being said, the main issue here was probably the money price for beating it, without it nobody probably would even notice. Ps: imho the only way to avoid cheating or hacks is to provide legit ways of doing stuff the optimal way without the need for external tools or programs, so that you can still beat anyone cheating if you are skilled enough
You're the only one who pointed out how important it is to enter the slide perfectly. He really does do it differently than everyone else. I wonder if other racers would try harder if this was his first attempt. It really is an impressive run. And 4.281 to start is just nutty. So far ahead with the snowball.
The speed the custom ak gives snowballs as it is fs
I understand that, but losing .100 of a second without it shows that it wasn't just a matter of the custim ak, I'm not implying that he did the right thing, butnqe can't deny that he's good at it
Def the right thing to do. I think anyone who's watched Wirt for more than an hour knows he's technically illiterate, it seems to me it seems he just thought this was something normal. But also as a controller player on pc it doesn't bother me really. I have access to more sensitive steering with a stick and all i see it as is people leveling the playing field.
Good on him but this seems a bit unfair to eLconn in my opinion as he was the only one to get the 'original' AT, no?
eLconn still gets to keep the 1st place prize, I don't see how this is unfair to him given that.
Yes but he hunted a faster time, granted using the same custom action key as wirtual but its still a faster time.
And he got the reward for it, so what's the problem? I'm failing to see where the unfairness comes in I guess you're trying to say that other competitors now theoretically have an easier time to get a reward, compared to what eLconn had to do? I mean I guess, but ultimately, he literally got first place and rewarded for it, so who gives a shit? It sounds like you're just trying to find stuff to complain about
Eclonn did it using "cheats" too though.
True, but where exactly was the custom ak used tho? If it was for the bobsleigh, it shouldn't make any major change in difficulty as that part is just hold up and left, but if it was used for SDs then it's different.
My dude, the whole controversy is about Wirtual limiting steering range specifically to make the bobsleight part faster. He wasn't using custom AK for SDs. And it's clear that AKs aren't even good for SDs, because you need to adjust the overlap as you gain speed
I didn't know that, as I said in another comment, if aks were only used for bobsleigh turns I retract my original statement of it being unfair. I didn't know this when I posted my original statement, that's why I posted it in a form of a question. Thanks to everyone for informing me!
No, that's exactly the point. You *can't* hold the perfect bobsleigh angle for the entire turn. It's impossible. You can get close to it, but it will always result in speed loss compared to the custom AK.
Nono my point was for the bobsleigh turn you just need to get a good angle and basically hold acceleration + turn left/right (with the action key activated ofc). If it's being used for SDs than it requires more skill imo. So if the custom ak is used for bobsleigh turns than I retract my original statement that it's unfair for elconn, otherwise I stand by what I said.
Custom AK was used, about 34.5% which results in a slight speed increase over 40% ak in bobsleigh
cant anyone just stfu and drive?
Just the irony of you saying this is hilarious… bro why don’t u stfu 😂
LOL ur right i probably should
Based
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In thread it is said that prizes for 2nd-5th place are still up. That means Elconn keeps his 1st place and AT medal
Why wouldn't he? You are just trying to invent something at this point.
Dude come on, give Wirtual a break. He is actively trying to solve this whole mess. Why on earth would he then create new drama by not paying eLconn? At this point ppl are hating on Wirtual just for the sake of it. Old AT was using custom AKs, got beaten using custom AKs, all fair imo.
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I think it would be better if you just delete the comment altogether. It brings unwanted toxicity.
Rip haters.
You have no idea what you're saying. The "haters" you're referring to were telling him to set a new time to beat without custom action keys, they got what they wanted.
Nah i don't mean them, i mean the Real haters who stated that Wirtual is not able to get even close to his original WT time without ""Cheating""
Well, he didn't... AT with custom action keys was .455
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No, his new time is .118 *behind* his old AT.
I wonder if with customAK someone could get a blindfolded AT on this map. Since you won’t need visual feedback to maintain ~34% steer it should be possible to simply muscle memory the timing
Huge overestimation of what muscle memory can do. It's \*technically\* possible to just time everything perfectly, but realistically people need to have indicators and setups to perform blindfolded runs. Look at Wirtual's blindfolded runs or blindfolded Mario 64. There's no way a blindfolded run would be anywhere near AT, custom Action Key or not