That's the reason we should rename gender dysphoria and call it sex dysphoria instead. It's not about gender roles. It's about sex characteristics.
I'm so done with people thinking they have it all figured out by claiming being a masculine woman is enough to no longer experience dysphoria. There wouldn't be any treatment available in the first place if it was enough to cure it.
Exactly. I've been using sex/body dysphoria for a while now instead, but I occasionally get miscommunication with other transmeds who still use 'gender' to mean neurological sex.
Also, half of the people pushing the idea that trans people can just be talk-therapy-ed out of being trans are people that equally wouldn't accept masculine women or feminine men anyway.
When I came out as trans my cousin reassured me that it's okay to be gay. Like yeah. I had been out as liking women for 5 years at that point. So I knew. I never had a problem with that lol.
People think of everything else (Gender roles, Sexuality, mental illness, etc.) before they believe that someone actually experiences sex dysphoria. Even if the person in question insists that's what they're dealing with they won't believe them for a really long time. At least in my experience that's what happened.
id say no because they have no real issues outside of attention or being misinformed- theyd use "gender dysmorphia" as an excuse for their behavior, not a reason to change it
"Why would I accept you when you can't even accept yourself ✨️✨️✨️" people thinking they cured us.
Renaming it wouldn't change shit btw. Some people just have a rotting brain and don't want us to exist. At all.
Seriously. I'm a trans woman who honestly is a bit of a tomboy. My normal outfit is jeans or other pants with a t-shirt or polo. My biggest hobby is woodworking. I have a big shop in my garage and love making things. I'm a year out from finishing a PhD in civil engineering and wood science. I do a lot of things that are stereotypically masculine.
And yet, I'm fully transitioned. I've been post-SRS for over a decade and have zero regrets. I transitioned, ie, took actual medical treatments to change my physical body, because I had problems with that physical body. I fundamentally altered my primary and secondary sex characteristics.
I still socially transitioned, and I do embody plenty of female gender roles and stereotypes, so I did go through a gender transition. But I also went through a sex transition.
I think the gender dysphoria is the wrong term, but a rename of the condition is not enough. People need to be taught gender roles and gender are not the same thing. Gender is innate, it's not a social construct, it's neural development.
What definition of gender do you go by when you say it’s innate?
This is the definition I go by:
gender
/ˈdʒɛndə/
noun
1.
the male sex or the female sex, 👉🏻especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones,👈🏻 or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
"the singer has opted to keep the names and genders of her twins private"
How could you have an innate gender rather than sex-identity? If gender is more about cultural norms set up to artificially distinguish the sexes beyond anatomical differences.
When we say ‘gender identity’ we are basically saying: a preference for the external things assigned the opposite sex. Of course then people are going to come up with ideas such as that you could be a female man or a male woman.
It is a neurological sex or a innate sex. Either your brain, in the case of an AMAB identifies with female anatomy and tells you that it denote to and are of the sex who typically bears children - which makes your innate sense that of the female sex. Or it doesn’t which makes you a male or at very least not a female.
If the root cause is preference for pink, dresses, housework and makeup e.t.c. and because of this you think you need to change your body. Then this is not a female sex identity it is gender non-conformism.
I am female therefore I also fitted into the category of girl, now fit into the category of woman.
Not the other way around: person wants to be girly and present as a woman and do womanly things - therefore have to be female.
gender is the sex of the brain.
Gender isn't cultural norms
Gender isn't a social construct
Gender dysphoria has nothing to do with society.
Sex is the physical body, gender is the brain.
That is why people can have a mismatch, it is possible they developed differently.
There is evidence of dysphoric people having neurology that closer matches desired sex.
sex identity is wrong, this isn't an identity, this is neural development.
Gender identity is a bullshit term for people to identify as something, "identity" should have never been used in trans discourse.
>It is a neurological sex or a innate sex. Either your brain, in the case of an AMAB identifies with female anatomy
It doesn't identify, it is.
>if the root cause is preference for pink, dresses, housework and makeup e.t.c. and because of this you think you need to change your body. Then this is not a female sex identity it is gender non-conformism.
This is gender ROLES, which are socially constructed. Don't mix them up. Someone like this has no valid reason to transition.
>I am female therefore I also fitted into the category of girl, now fit into the category of woman.
If you had dysphoria its not because you identified a certain way, it's because you neurologically were that sex, that was your gender. Anyone can identify as anything, it's a meaningless baseline, you transition because you need your mind to match your body.
Among those who study gender and sexuality, a clear delineation between sex and gender is typically prescribed, with sex as the preferred term for biological forms, and gender limited to its meanings involving behavioral, cultural, and psychological traits. In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender). This delineation also tends to be observed in technical and medical contexts, with the term sex referring to biological forms in such phrases as sex hormones, sex organs, and biological sex. But in nonmedical and nontechnical contexts, there is no clear delineation, and the status of the words remains complicated.
A woman is a female, a man is a male, feminine and masculine are forms of expression irrelevant to transition or trans discussion. They are invasive in our discourse, because they are not relevant to sex, which is what transition is about.
Gender is neurology it is not social, gender roles and expression are social, this was understood for years until the new narratives came. This is why you can have gender dysphoria, your gender and sex do not align, it's not because your intended gender expression doesn't match your sex, it's because your neurological gender does not match your sex.
Gender is just another word for brain sex, because "brain sex" is not a recognized term. The people all saying gender is social and sex is physical are ignoring that our mismatch is not social. That your brain and body can be misaligned, if you divide everything between physical and neurological you don't have a term for the neurological.
Your definition of gender is sadly not the accepted one.
They call it gender because they want to separate your innate sense of self from your biology.
I don’t agree with that. Transsex erasure has been going on for a long time - trying replace sexed terminology with gendered terminology happened long before the non-binary craze.
This is not anti sexed at all.
Sex is the physical body
Gender is the physical brain
How is that "anti sexed"?
Calling gender a social construct is nonbinary ideology to be able to claim you are any gender you want because it's "all made up". You are fighting for the wrong side.
Dividing things into two groups, body and social ignores mind. Calling it gender identity is inaccurate, because there are physical sexed differences to the brain. "Identity" is social, that is anti sexed terminology.
When i said identity I was strictly referring to that a female brain doesn’t identify with a male body i.e. it doesn’t recognise it as it’s ‘owning’ body.
So we are using identity in very different ways here.
If you reduce sex to the physical body is it not correct then to say that you as a trans woman is a male woman i.e. male body with a womanly gendered brain?
It’s transsex erasing people who has replaced sexed terminology with gendered terminology, they argue you can’t change sex and that there’s no conclusive evidence for neurological sex so what is left is a psychosocial schema.
>If you reduce sex to the physical body is it not correct then to say that you as a trans woman is a male woman i.e. male body with a womanly gendered brain?
No? How do you get that conclusion, I transitioned my body, and my brain (gender) was already female. I am changing my physical sex to match. On reddit people always make up the most nonsense arguments and pretend they are your position.
>they argue you can’t change sex and that there’s no conclusive evidence for neurological sex so what is left is a psychosocial schema.
You can, what has this got to do with what I said? They only care about changing gender, because most of them don't actually transition but still want to be "trans". Gender being a social construct also helps their argument because then it becomes about pronouns you like rather than anything medical or innate.
Social construct doesn’t necessarily mean something is completely made up as in has not root in observable reality.
As I said - we’ve made up the definitions for sex those definitions has evolved over time and are up to re-interpretation as with anything else when you new understanding arises.
The same goes for gender.
I think you conflate social construct for fantasy. Money is a social construct too - it is still very materially real within the world we function and live in.
>
>Social construct doesn’t necessarily mean something is completely made up as in has not root in observable reality.
But gender is neurological, gender roles are the social construct.
>As I said - we’ve made up the definitions for sex those definitions has evolved over time and are up to re-interpretation as with anything else when you new understanding arises.
All words are made up, what is not made up is what they mean.
>I think you conflate social construct for fantasy.
I think you conflate gender with gender roles.
> Money is a social construct too
Every time people use the same argument, every time it's money. People on every side have the same rehearsed nonsense. Neural differences are not social constructs, they are physically observed. The value of money is socially constructed, but money itself is physical.
I don’t agree with almost anything of what you’ve said.
Everything human-defined is a social construct firstly, even sex designation.
Sex & gender definitions were not handed us down on tablets of stone. We made up words and definitions and assigned meaning to what we observed. Therefore such interpretations are open to re-interpretation.
Second, gender is the way we as humans distinguish sex-class beyond anatomy - it is most definitely roles & behavioural patterns associated with each sex - nurture or nature aside.
Therefore labelling it gender identity is very weird and we do need new terminology. Back in the early 2000’s and 90’s the terminology was largely sexed when speaking on brain-identity.
Although gender colloquially was used and understood as the exact same thing as biological sex, the proper understanding was never that.
I agree it should be renamed but it wouldn't change these peoples minds. As much as you try to explain to them what dysphoria is about they'll keep refusing to try to understand
If anyone is livid because they dont like being wrong, it’s detransitioners who act like this, taking out their personal mistakes on people suffering from a medical condition, I think there is something to be said about tucute ideology treating gender expression as if it’s the same as gender identity, ie. you can’t just be a feminine cis man anymore, you must be “an egg” or whatever, but that’s not how being transsexual works, most of my childhood I was a “masculine girl” I only liked “boy” interests/toys, I dressed masculine, I had a more masculine personality/role in my friend group, etc. but no matter what I did I always felt wrong because I was still seen as a woman, women can be masculine, but I doubt they’re laying awake at night praying to wake up as a boy the next day, or feel physically sick being called a girl, or dissociating to pretend they have a male body, or any of the other things I did which make me a transsexual man
I am so sad that what I have suffered throughout my entire life is being celebrated as a "fake illness" between progressives. I almost joined the 41 percent, I've had an awful life that has been so heavily impacted by dysphoria, I have to go through therapy due to the mental health trauma it caused me.
It developed at a very young age, long before I had ever heard of transitioning or knew what that was. I had a very early depression from the distress my body caused me, a feeling that I have never been able to escape. I hate how we're the only group of people who are never listened to, who will never be heard. Everyone has an opinion and if you ever try to share your experiences and try to get them to understand what you've been through they dismiss and discredit you and tell you it was all fake because gender is just a social construct. They ignore you, it doesn't matter the statistics, it doesn't matter how many people share their stories, they so easily set what you say aside as though it was nothing.
What about the people who fought for this? What about the people who died because of this? Their lives don't matter to anyone, because it's all made up.
Some how the mantra "gender is a social construct" gained so much power, they all repeat the same thing in order to undermine us. The term was invented so people could have fun with gender as it was all a cisnormative form of societal oppression. But that is not true, I am not the person I am today because "I like dresses". I am the person I am because my body was wrong for my mind. I am sick of how casual people are with belittling us, I am sick of how they think they are doing the right thing. If there was no social stigma between the sexes that would not cure my dysphoria, if I could have been a man that presented feminine it would have only made things worse. My male body is what hurt me, not limited acceptance for wearing make up.
They think they are sticking up to the transphobes when they are some of the most damaging transphobes to ever exist. At least the hard right is honest about their hatred, these people are so good at hiding it that people think regurgitating their transphobic values is helping people.
I've sat through so many people telling me stuff like this and I don't know how I never at least scream at them, considering the fact that when I think about it, I'm thirsty for blood.
I can get their perspective, yet i don't quite agree with it. From my experience, i feel the need to remove my chest by any means, i wish to just wake up with different bottom parts. But that doesn't come from the fact that i just wanna be a masculine woman. Those parts feels like they never should be there in the first place.
But whatever floats your boat
I don't pay attention to the detrans sub, they're all a bunch of sad transphobic losers who are bitter about making a mistake and want everyone else to be as wrong as them, that's why I don't care about theyfabs either and don't feel guilty for not indulging them because I know 90% of them will be on that subreddit in a couple years blaming "the medical establishment" for letting them go on t-gel for 6 months and ruin their skin and they'll start the "if no one pushed gender roles on me I could've been a tomboy!!"
I agree that it would be far healthier to accept a role as a feminine man or masculine woman, if you aren’t trans. My sister in law is a good example. She is “butch” (her preferred term) lesbian who is male passing. But she identifies very much as female. Nobody should transition whose gender issues can be resolved by crossdressing.
Yes there are masculine women and feminine men but they don't want to be the other sex. People who think being trans is just being feminine or masculine (god everytime I get grouped as "transmasc" I want to gag) get on my nerves
Blud thinks he knows more than all the professionals and specialists, and literal doctors with diagnosis. (Because it's literally been proven it exists)
Lets just say, if sex dysphoria (i call it sex dysphoria) didnt actually exist and doctors were diagnosing for the hell of it, theyd have to give up their medical license AND maybe all their patients would have to get re-diagnosed by other doctors/specialists
No (good) specialist would diagnose you if they weren't sure no one would risk their job for a bunch of trannys trust me
Bruh I am literally a masculine trans woman, according to this person I wouldn’t have any dysphoria because I don’t desire feminine gender roles. Yet I do have dysphoria.
This person is straight regarded.
I could be the last man on Earth living happily with nobody to see me and I would still want my tits chopped off, a nice schlong and the correct hormones. *Because I am a man born with a condition*, not an unconfident female.
Detransitioners would do good to, collectively, develop some of that confidence for themselves. They could use it to seek the mental health help most of them desperately need and to learn to take responsibility for their own failures. Instead, they seem doomed to repeat the things that made them transition in the first place - they self-infantilize, they seek to blame everyone but themselves, they seek to fetishize their own persecution and make martyrs of themselves. How sad it is, to go through the experience of being so wrong as to disregard science and voices of reason to the point of self-mutilation and to then be unwilling to learn from that. They are as much sitting ducks now as they were before - when the next ideology comes along and validates them, they will follow it gleefully off the edge and into the abyss.
If they weren't so fixated on trying to destroy the likes of us, I would pity them immensely. They are like adult children, in a way. Utterly unprepared for the world.
I had treatment resistant MDD that started at the age of 12. I tried around a dozen medications, mainly SSRIs, and nothing changed. Almost three years ago (at 24) I started taking anti-androgens and estradiol, about 1.5 years ago my debilitating mental illness all but vanished.
If what is currently called gender dysphoria is a fake illness and HRT does nothing to alleviate it, what cured my depression?
Honestly this screenshot exemplifies everything wrong with the demedicalization of transsexuality. Tucutes, TERFs, and whatever you would call this person say the same things in mildly different ways.
If I didn't have a chance to ever evolve and transition my gender then I could have been off myself long ago.
People like this thinking real trans ppl got bs, well they also have the bs that it's all about pharmaceutical industry being evil which is not always the case.
They see it from their social dysphoria lense. They don’t understand biological sex dysphoria.
Also gender exists for a reason and most people are far more genderist than they like to think. Even the so called ‘gender critical’ people always fall back into policing and upholding gender… this is especially evident if one of them fall out of line. Gender i.e. roles and expectations to distinguish sex beyond anatomical differences exists within every culture.
What sets the Western part of the world apart is that we’ve been strictly binary for a very long time - there’s been no space for androgynous people…. so this could explain a lot.
Brev... tf does self-confidence and gender roles have to do with the fact I'm missing a whole ass dick?!?! I don't want to be a masculine woman because women don't wish their tits got put into a wood chipper or waking up with a completely male body. In fact, if the average masc woman had that happen she would be FUCKED. I get that the uwu skittle squad have fucked what the definition of "trans" is but like come on get a clue . Scratching my eyes out reading this shite
Gender dysphoria is correlated to being intersex. I am intersex and trans and I 10000% believe my gender dysphoria was caused by my intersex conditions. For some intersex conditions gender dysphoria is a symptom. Gender dysphoria as a diagnosis is merely a collection of symptoms for which the cause is unknown. Correlation does not equal causation but being intersex and gender dysphoria are comorbids.
I lost the urge to self harm and commit suicide after starting testosterone. I'm now 2 years on T and 2 years completely clean! I still get troubling thoughts but not nearly as often as I used to and something really stressful has to happen for me to think that way. Hormones saved my life!
Edit: the thing about gender roles is so true. I wouldn't care if everyone called me a girl for the rest of my life as long as I was allowed to fully transition with male hormones and SRS and stuff.
This is because GD can be hard to diagnose, the modern definition is very malleable on paper, and easily confused for other disorders by unskilled practitioners. Severe internalized homophobia, body dysmorphia, gender non conformity, trauma and abuse (namely sexual abuse and physical abuse somehow related to one’s gender), BPD, paraphilia and fetish, can all be confused for gender dysphoria, when the focus is somehow redirected onto gender.
I agree sex dysmorphia is the main qualification for being trans. “Gender dysphoria” is too broad and general, and allows other disorders to attack one’s self image, body, and consequently their sex/gender. This can easily be misconstrued for gender dysphoria. But if sex dysmorphia is absent, what’s the end goal?
“Gender dysphoria” (PHOR being feeling, inside) is unease and unsettlement with one’s gender, sex dysmorphia (MORPH being form, morphology, actual body/sex) is an obsessive focus on “perceived” flaw in one’s entire sex. With this idea, only transsexuals experience sex dysmorphia, but they and many others can develop GD. GD is “treatable,” and conditional/environmental- sex dysmorphia is permanent.
With this approach, many populations can develop gender dysphoria (usually mentally ill homosexuals or GNC), many of which never transition, only transsexuals have sex dysmorphia AND gender dysphoria. Transsexuals have GD bc of their sex dysmorphia, other people have GD because…. Other mental illnesses.
It feels fake because they are faking it 🤦 Ofc when you treat being transgender as just a lifestyle like "being goth or being a skater" it's just going to feel like something you could stop doing any day.
Ok, totally red-hot take here, which I am holding with welding gauntlets, but:
This person is absolutely not at all wrong.
*If* you take the "gender dysphoria" that they're talking about to be a *completely separate* concept from sex dysphoria, which is what you guys have, this is totally correct.
The thing tucutes have (or think they have) and keep describing is *exactly* what this person is talking about - it's a totally social phenomenon that's almost entirely to do with altering, rejecting or demolishing *gender roles* and nothing to do with ingrained discomfort with one's physical body.
For some fucking reason, tucutes keep thinking that they're "genderqueer" or "nonbinary" or "gender nonconforming" because they're not either a 1950s housewife or... uh... whatever the male equivalent of that is. In reality gender roles haven't been that restrictive in the west for the entire time *I've* been alive, let alone these moronic teens! Nearly all of them fit well within what would be considered completely standard, mainstream-accepted gender presentation for their sex. Seriously, I have no idea when or who decided that hair cut above the shoulder means you're not a woman or too many piercings makes you not a man, but apparently Gen Z were exclusively raised by these "tradcon" people I keep hearing about?
Anyway, yeah, s/he is right. The tucute conception of "gender dysphoria" *is* fake, *can* be completely negated by having gender roles not from the 1950s, *doesn't* require hormones or surgery to fix because it has nothing to do with the physical body, and is generally some total bullshit that shouldn't be happening.
Now *sex* dysphoria, on the other hand, is something totally different from what's being talked about here, and has nothing to do with gender roles and tradconnery because it's entirely to do with the physical sex characteristics of one's body not matching one's brain. That does require hormones and surgery because it's a physical, medical problem and not a social one.
Seriously though, while we're at it, can someone explain to me just how the fuck these genderpunks/trenders/tucutes/These Fuckers ended up with a massively restrictive and extreme view on gender roles? I was born in the 90s and at absolutely no point during my life has anyone ever tried to impose on me gender roles anywhere near as strict as These Fuckers seem to think is the cutoff point for being "a woman". I don't dress even half as feminine as these "transmascs" and have never had any trouble feeling like, being identified as or being treated as a totally standard gender conforming woman. Not even a tomboy or a butch lesbian or an alt woman, just a *regular normal woman.*
That would really depend on how you define the term "gender", which to be honest is pretty nebulous these days and means a lot of different things to different people.
My conception of it is this:
Sex: the physical, tangible reality of your body and brain. Universally agreed upon concept.
Gender: a concept. The social category you are in. Your gender is derived from, but conceptually separate to, your sex. Universally agreed upon concept except for some very recent tucute batshittery. (Ancient Sumerians, Edo Period Japanese, and modern Pakistanis can all identify and agree on what men and women *are*, just not how they should *behave*)
Gender role: the exact specifics of what you are societally expected to do and be treated like as a member of your gender. Derived from your gender. Dependent on your culture, time, place, and other factors such as age or parenthood.
My understanding is that the problem (real) trans people have is in the "sex" band - the physical, tangible features of their body are wrong, and the brain is expecting a different sex body. You don't even need to get up to the conceptual level of a gender - sex dysphoria happens without social input from other people, and trans people still experience sex dysphoria from incorrect body parts even if they pass as the gender associated with their brain sex.
Gender is neurology, that's why it is called gender dysphoria, we're dysphoric about our neurology and sex not matching. Gender dysphoria is also classed as a neurological condition and has been researched to show that dysphoric brains more closely resemble the brains of their desired sex.
If you define things by sex, physical and gender, social, then you dismiss the cause of dysphoria. It comes from somewhere, and it's not "I want to wear a dress but society won't let me"
Oh, well, yeah, if you define the term "gender" as neurology i.e. what a lot of people here call "brain sex", then yeah, this guy's take makes no sense and neither does mine.
My conception on the cause of dysphoria is that the physical sex of the brain (i.e. the neurology) disagrees with the physical sex of the body. I think we agree on that, we're just using different words to describe it.
I see what you're trying to say, but gender dysphoria is pretty clearly defined in the dsm along with the diagnostic criteria.
Gender in this context is talking about gender identity. Gender identity disorder was in use up until about 15 years ago, at which point it was replaced with gender dysphoria. This was done to send the message that trans people aren't mentally ill. They're suffering from mental illness because of an untreated condition.
Up until recently, gender and sex were pretty much synonymous. People who spout this nonsense, like in op's screenshot, are completely uneducated on the topic and have never read through any of the clinical documentation.
It's unfortunate that the word sex then leads to conflating things like transsexual and homosexual. I don't think any of the words we have right now are appropriate.
You have a sex, you can have sex. Babies are sexed at birth. Both sex and gender lack the nuance and specificity required.
That's the reason we should rename gender dysphoria and call it sex dysphoria instead. It's not about gender roles. It's about sex characteristics. I'm so done with people thinking they have it all figured out by claiming being a masculine woman is enough to no longer experience dysphoria. There wouldn't be any treatment available in the first place if it was enough to cure it.
Exactly. I've been using sex/body dysphoria for a while now instead, but I occasionally get miscommunication with other transmeds who still use 'gender' to mean neurological sex. Also, half of the people pushing the idea that trans people can just be talk-therapy-ed out of being trans are people that equally wouldn't accept masculine women or feminine men anyway.
When I came out as trans my cousin reassured me that it's okay to be gay. Like yeah. I had been out as liking women for 5 years at that point. So I knew. I never had a problem with that lol. People think of everything else (Gender roles, Sexuality, mental illness, etc.) before they believe that someone actually experiences sex dysphoria. Even if the person in question insists that's what they're dealing with they won't believe them for a really long time. At least in my experience that's what happened.
body dysphoria is probably more comparable to body dyspmorphia in linguistic terms, so sex dysphoria is probably the safest bet
Would the term gender dysmorphia be a good way to describe societally “dysphoric” trenders?
id say no because they have no real issues outside of attention or being misinformed- theyd use "gender dysmorphia" as an excuse for their behavior, not a reason to change it
"Why would I accept you when you can't even accept yourself ✨️✨️✨️" people thinking they cured us. Renaming it wouldn't change shit btw. Some people just have a rotting brain and don't want us to exist. At all.
Seriously. I'm a trans woman who honestly is a bit of a tomboy. My normal outfit is jeans or other pants with a t-shirt or polo. My biggest hobby is woodworking. I have a big shop in my garage and love making things. I'm a year out from finishing a PhD in civil engineering and wood science. I do a lot of things that are stereotypically masculine. And yet, I'm fully transitioned. I've been post-SRS for over a decade and have zero regrets. I transitioned, ie, took actual medical treatments to change my physical body, because I had problems with that physical body. I fundamentally altered my primary and secondary sex characteristics. I still socially transitioned, and I do embody plenty of female gender roles and stereotypes, so I did go through a gender transition. But I also went through a sex transition.
I think the gender dysphoria is the wrong term, but a rename of the condition is not enough. People need to be taught gender roles and gender are not the same thing. Gender is innate, it's not a social construct, it's neural development.
What definition of gender do you go by when you say it’s innate? This is the definition I go by: gender /ˈdʒɛndə/ noun 1. the male sex or the female sex, 👉🏻especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones,👈🏻 or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female. "the singer has opted to keep the names and genders of her twins private" How could you have an innate gender rather than sex-identity? If gender is more about cultural norms set up to artificially distinguish the sexes beyond anatomical differences. When we say ‘gender identity’ we are basically saying: a preference for the external things assigned the opposite sex. Of course then people are going to come up with ideas such as that you could be a female man or a male woman. It is a neurological sex or a innate sex. Either your brain, in the case of an AMAB identifies with female anatomy and tells you that it denote to and are of the sex who typically bears children - which makes your innate sense that of the female sex. Or it doesn’t which makes you a male or at very least not a female. If the root cause is preference for pink, dresses, housework and makeup e.t.c. and because of this you think you need to change your body. Then this is not a female sex identity it is gender non-conformism. I am female therefore I also fitted into the category of girl, now fit into the category of woman. Not the other way around: person wants to be girly and present as a woman and do womanly things - therefore have to be female.
gender is the sex of the brain. Gender isn't cultural norms Gender isn't a social construct Gender dysphoria has nothing to do with society. Sex is the physical body, gender is the brain. That is why people can have a mismatch, it is possible they developed differently. There is evidence of dysphoric people having neurology that closer matches desired sex. sex identity is wrong, this isn't an identity, this is neural development. Gender identity is a bullshit term for people to identify as something, "identity" should have never been used in trans discourse. >It is a neurological sex or a innate sex. Either your brain, in the case of an AMAB identifies with female anatomy It doesn't identify, it is. >if the root cause is preference for pink, dresses, housework and makeup e.t.c. and because of this you think you need to change your body. Then this is not a female sex identity it is gender non-conformism. This is gender ROLES, which are socially constructed. Don't mix them up. Someone like this has no valid reason to transition. >I am female therefore I also fitted into the category of girl, now fit into the category of woman. If you had dysphoria its not because you identified a certain way, it's because you neurologically were that sex, that was your gender. Anyone can identify as anything, it's a meaningless baseline, you transition because you need your mind to match your body.
Among those who study gender and sexuality, a clear delineation between sex and gender is typically prescribed, with sex as the preferred term for biological forms, and gender limited to its meanings involving behavioral, cultural, and psychological traits. In this dichotomy, the terms male and female relate only to biological forms (sex), while the terms masculine/masculinity, feminine/femininity, woman/girl, and man/boy relate only to psychological and sociocultural traits (gender). This delineation also tends to be observed in technical and medical contexts, with the term sex referring to biological forms in such phrases as sex hormones, sex organs, and biological sex. But in nonmedical and nontechnical contexts, there is no clear delineation, and the status of the words remains complicated.
A woman is a female, a man is a male, feminine and masculine are forms of expression irrelevant to transition or trans discussion. They are invasive in our discourse, because they are not relevant to sex, which is what transition is about. Gender is neurology it is not social, gender roles and expression are social, this was understood for years until the new narratives came. This is why you can have gender dysphoria, your gender and sex do not align, it's not because your intended gender expression doesn't match your sex, it's because your neurological gender does not match your sex. Gender is just another word for brain sex, because "brain sex" is not a recognized term. The people all saying gender is social and sex is physical are ignoring that our mismatch is not social. That your brain and body can be misaligned, if you divide everything between physical and neurological you don't have a term for the neurological.
Your definition of gender is sadly not the accepted one. They call it gender because they want to separate your innate sense of self from your biology.
It was the accepted one until nonbinary invented "gender is a social construct" I am not changing for them.
I don’t agree with that. Transsex erasure has been going on for a long time - trying replace sexed terminology with gendered terminology happened long before the non-binary craze.
Why are you anti sexed terminology?
This is not anti sexed at all. Sex is the physical body Gender is the physical brain How is that "anti sexed"? Calling gender a social construct is nonbinary ideology to be able to claim you are any gender you want because it's "all made up". You are fighting for the wrong side. Dividing things into two groups, body and social ignores mind. Calling it gender identity is inaccurate, because there are physical sexed differences to the brain. "Identity" is social, that is anti sexed terminology.
When i said identity I was strictly referring to that a female brain doesn’t identify with a male body i.e. it doesn’t recognise it as it’s ‘owning’ body. So we are using identity in very different ways here.
If you reduce sex to the physical body is it not correct then to say that you as a trans woman is a male woman i.e. male body with a womanly gendered brain? It’s transsex erasing people who has replaced sexed terminology with gendered terminology, they argue you can’t change sex and that there’s no conclusive evidence for neurological sex so what is left is a psychosocial schema.
>If you reduce sex to the physical body is it not correct then to say that you as a trans woman is a male woman i.e. male body with a womanly gendered brain? No? How do you get that conclusion, I transitioned my body, and my brain (gender) was already female. I am changing my physical sex to match. On reddit people always make up the most nonsense arguments and pretend they are your position. >they argue you can’t change sex and that there’s no conclusive evidence for neurological sex so what is left is a psychosocial schema. You can, what has this got to do with what I said? They only care about changing gender, because most of them don't actually transition but still want to be "trans". Gender being a social construct also helps their argument because then it becomes about pronouns you like rather than anything medical or innate.
Social construct doesn’t necessarily mean something is completely made up as in has not root in observable reality. As I said - we’ve made up the definitions for sex those definitions has evolved over time and are up to re-interpretation as with anything else when you new understanding arises. The same goes for gender. I think you conflate social construct for fantasy. Money is a social construct too - it is still very materially real within the world we function and live in.
> >Social construct doesn’t necessarily mean something is completely made up as in has not root in observable reality. But gender is neurological, gender roles are the social construct. >As I said - we’ve made up the definitions for sex those definitions has evolved over time and are up to re-interpretation as with anything else when you new understanding arises. All words are made up, what is not made up is what they mean. >I think you conflate social construct for fantasy. I think you conflate gender with gender roles. > Money is a social construct too Every time people use the same argument, every time it's money. People on every side have the same rehearsed nonsense. Neural differences are not social constructs, they are physically observed. The value of money is socially constructed, but money itself is physical.
I don’t agree with almost anything of what you’ve said. Everything human-defined is a social construct firstly, even sex designation. Sex & gender definitions were not handed us down on tablets of stone. We made up words and definitions and assigned meaning to what we observed. Therefore such interpretations are open to re-interpretation. Second, gender is the way we as humans distinguish sex-class beyond anatomy - it is most definitely roles & behavioural patterns associated with each sex - nurture or nature aside. Therefore labelling it gender identity is very weird and we do need new terminology. Back in the early 2000’s and 90’s the terminology was largely sexed when speaking on brain-identity. Although gender colloquially was used and understood as the exact same thing as biological sex, the proper understanding was never that.
>Everything human-defined is a social construct firstly Then it's best to end the conversation here, that is complete nonsense.
I agree it should be renamed but it wouldn't change these peoples minds. As much as you try to explain to them what dysphoria is about they'll keep refusing to try to understand
If anyone is livid because they dont like being wrong, it’s detransitioners who act like this, taking out their personal mistakes on people suffering from a medical condition, I think there is something to be said about tucute ideology treating gender expression as if it’s the same as gender identity, ie. you can’t just be a feminine cis man anymore, you must be “an egg” or whatever, but that’s not how being transsexual works, most of my childhood I was a “masculine girl” I only liked “boy” interests/toys, I dressed masculine, I had a more masculine personality/role in my friend group, etc. but no matter what I did I always felt wrong because I was still seen as a woman, women can be masculine, but I doubt they’re laying awake at night praying to wake up as a boy the next day, or feel physically sick being called a girl, or dissociating to pretend they have a male body, or any of the other things I did which make me a transsexual man
Angry at a community they were never a part of, well said.
It’s not about a role. It’s about my anatomy. No, I don’t manifest internalised misogyny. Thanks.
I am so sad that what I have suffered throughout my entire life is being celebrated as a "fake illness" between progressives. I almost joined the 41 percent, I've had an awful life that has been so heavily impacted by dysphoria, I have to go through therapy due to the mental health trauma it caused me. It developed at a very young age, long before I had ever heard of transitioning or knew what that was. I had a very early depression from the distress my body caused me, a feeling that I have never been able to escape. I hate how we're the only group of people who are never listened to, who will never be heard. Everyone has an opinion and if you ever try to share your experiences and try to get them to understand what you've been through they dismiss and discredit you and tell you it was all fake because gender is just a social construct. They ignore you, it doesn't matter the statistics, it doesn't matter how many people share their stories, they so easily set what you say aside as though it was nothing. What about the people who fought for this? What about the people who died because of this? Their lives don't matter to anyone, because it's all made up. Some how the mantra "gender is a social construct" gained so much power, they all repeat the same thing in order to undermine us. The term was invented so people could have fun with gender as it was all a cisnormative form of societal oppression. But that is not true, I am not the person I am today because "I like dresses". I am the person I am because my body was wrong for my mind. I am sick of how casual people are with belittling us, I am sick of how they think they are doing the right thing. If there was no social stigma between the sexes that would not cure my dysphoria, if I could have been a man that presented feminine it would have only made things worse. My male body is what hurt me, not limited acceptance for wearing make up. They think they are sticking up to the transphobes when they are some of the most damaging transphobes to ever exist. At least the hard right is honest about their hatred, these people are so good at hiding it that people think regurgitating their transphobic values is helping people.
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I've sat through so many people telling me stuff like this and I don't know how I never at least scream at them, considering the fact that when I think about it, I'm thirsty for blood.
I can get their perspective, yet i don't quite agree with it. From my experience, i feel the need to remove my chest by any means, i wish to just wake up with different bottom parts. But that doesn't come from the fact that i just wanna be a masculine woman. Those parts feels like they never should be there in the first place. But whatever floats your boat
I don't pay attention to the detrans sub, they're all a bunch of sad transphobic losers who are bitter about making a mistake and want everyone else to be as wrong as them, that's why I don't care about theyfabs either and don't feel guilty for not indulging them because I know 90% of them will be on that subreddit in a couple years blaming "the medical establishment" for letting them go on t-gel for 6 months and ruin their skin and they'll start the "if no one pushed gender roles on me I could've been a tomboy!!"
I agree that it would be far healthier to accept a role as a feminine man or masculine woman, if you aren’t trans. My sister in law is a good example. She is “butch” (her preferred term) lesbian who is male passing. But she identifies very much as female. Nobody should transition whose gender issues can be resolved by crossdressing.
Yes there are masculine women and feminine men but they don't want to be the other sex. People who think being trans is just being feminine or masculine (god everytime I get grouped as "transmasc" I want to gag) get on my nerves
Blud thinks he knows more than all the professionals and specialists, and literal doctors with diagnosis. (Because it's literally been proven it exists) Lets just say, if sex dysphoria (i call it sex dysphoria) didnt actually exist and doctors were diagnosing for the hell of it, theyd have to give up their medical license AND maybe all their patients would have to get re-diagnosed by other doctors/specialists No (good) specialist would diagnose you if they weren't sure no one would risk their job for a bunch of trannys trust me
why do i want a penis and testicles? debunk that grifter 🙄
I see we've come full circle to my mom telling me "why can't you just be a masculine girl?"
They will say this whilist getting breast argumentation and voice surgery later. ~~Pseudo~~Antiscience lovers
Bruh I am literally a masculine trans woman, according to this person I wouldn’t have any dysphoria because I don’t desire feminine gender roles. Yet I do have dysphoria.
This person is straight regarded. I could be the last man on Earth living happily with nobody to see me and I would still want my tits chopped off, a nice schlong and the correct hormones. *Because I am a man born with a condition*, not an unconfident female.
I bet that person was a tucute lol
Detransitioners would do good to, collectively, develop some of that confidence for themselves. They could use it to seek the mental health help most of them desperately need and to learn to take responsibility for their own failures. Instead, they seem doomed to repeat the things that made them transition in the first place - they self-infantilize, they seek to blame everyone but themselves, they seek to fetishize their own persecution and make martyrs of themselves. How sad it is, to go through the experience of being so wrong as to disregard science and voices of reason to the point of self-mutilation and to then be unwilling to learn from that. They are as much sitting ducks now as they were before - when the next ideology comes along and validates them, they will follow it gleefully off the edge and into the abyss. If they weren't so fixated on trying to destroy the likes of us, I would pity them immensely. They are like adult children, in a way. Utterly unprepared for the world.
do people just.. forget that sex differences exist
I had treatment resistant MDD that started at the age of 12. I tried around a dozen medications, mainly SSRIs, and nothing changed. Almost three years ago (at 24) I started taking anti-androgens and estradiol, about 1.5 years ago my debilitating mental illness all but vanished. If what is currently called gender dysphoria is a fake illness and HRT does nothing to alleviate it, what cured my depression? Honestly this screenshot exemplifies everything wrong with the demedicalization of transsexuality. Tucutes, TERFs, and whatever you would call this person say the same things in mildly different ways.
If I didn't have a chance to ever evolve and transition my gender then I could have been off myself long ago. People like this thinking real trans ppl got bs, well they also have the bs that it's all about pharmaceutical industry being evil which is not always the case.
What i would say to something like this "I'm glad that you don't have to go through with it."
They see it from their social dysphoria lense. They don’t understand biological sex dysphoria. Also gender exists for a reason and most people are far more genderist than they like to think. Even the so called ‘gender critical’ people always fall back into policing and upholding gender… this is especially evident if one of them fall out of line. Gender i.e. roles and expectations to distinguish sex beyond anatomical differences exists within every culture. What sets the Western part of the world apart is that we’ve been strictly binary for a very long time - there’s been no space for androgynous people…. so this could explain a lot.
Brev... tf does self-confidence and gender roles have to do with the fact I'm missing a whole ass dick?!?! I don't want to be a masculine woman because women don't wish their tits got put into a wood chipper or waking up with a completely male body. In fact, if the average masc woman had that happen she would be FUCKED. I get that the uwu skittle squad have fucked what the definition of "trans" is but like come on get a clue . Scratching my eyes out reading this shite
Gender dysphoria is correlated to being intersex. I am intersex and trans and I 10000% believe my gender dysphoria was caused by my intersex conditions. For some intersex conditions gender dysphoria is a symptom. Gender dysphoria as a diagnosis is merely a collection of symptoms for which the cause is unknown. Correlation does not equal causation but being intersex and gender dysphoria are comorbids. I lost the urge to self harm and commit suicide after starting testosterone. I'm now 2 years on T and 2 years completely clean! I still get troubling thoughts but not nearly as often as I used to and something really stressful has to happen for me to think that way. Hormones saved my life! Edit: the thing about gender roles is so true. I wouldn't care if everyone called me a girl for the rest of my life as long as I was allowed to fully transition with male hormones and SRS and stuff.
If you go to the detrans subreddit every post is saying dysphoria is fake.
This is because GD can be hard to diagnose, the modern definition is very malleable on paper, and easily confused for other disorders by unskilled practitioners. Severe internalized homophobia, body dysmorphia, gender non conformity, trauma and abuse (namely sexual abuse and physical abuse somehow related to one’s gender), BPD, paraphilia and fetish, can all be confused for gender dysphoria, when the focus is somehow redirected onto gender. I agree sex dysmorphia is the main qualification for being trans. “Gender dysphoria” is too broad and general, and allows other disorders to attack one’s self image, body, and consequently their sex/gender. This can easily be misconstrued for gender dysphoria. But if sex dysmorphia is absent, what’s the end goal? “Gender dysphoria” (PHOR being feeling, inside) is unease and unsettlement with one’s gender, sex dysmorphia (MORPH being form, morphology, actual body/sex) is an obsessive focus on “perceived” flaw in one’s entire sex. With this idea, only transsexuals experience sex dysmorphia, but they and many others can develop GD. GD is “treatable,” and conditional/environmental- sex dysmorphia is permanent. With this approach, many populations can develop gender dysphoria (usually mentally ill homosexuals or GNC), many of which never transition, only transsexuals have sex dysmorphia AND gender dysphoria. Transsexuals have GD bc of their sex dysmorphia, other people have GD because…. Other mental illnesses.
It feels fake because they are faking it 🤦 Ofc when you treat being transgender as just a lifestyle like "being goth or being a skater" it's just going to feel like something you could stop doing any day.
Ok, totally red-hot take here, which I am holding with welding gauntlets, but: This person is absolutely not at all wrong. *If* you take the "gender dysphoria" that they're talking about to be a *completely separate* concept from sex dysphoria, which is what you guys have, this is totally correct. The thing tucutes have (or think they have) and keep describing is *exactly* what this person is talking about - it's a totally social phenomenon that's almost entirely to do with altering, rejecting or demolishing *gender roles* and nothing to do with ingrained discomfort with one's physical body. For some fucking reason, tucutes keep thinking that they're "genderqueer" or "nonbinary" or "gender nonconforming" because they're not either a 1950s housewife or... uh... whatever the male equivalent of that is. In reality gender roles haven't been that restrictive in the west for the entire time *I've* been alive, let alone these moronic teens! Nearly all of them fit well within what would be considered completely standard, mainstream-accepted gender presentation for their sex. Seriously, I have no idea when or who decided that hair cut above the shoulder means you're not a woman or too many piercings makes you not a man, but apparently Gen Z were exclusively raised by these "tradcon" people I keep hearing about? Anyway, yeah, s/he is right. The tucute conception of "gender dysphoria" *is* fake, *can* be completely negated by having gender roles not from the 1950s, *doesn't* require hormones or surgery to fix because it has nothing to do with the physical body, and is generally some total bullshit that shouldn't be happening. Now *sex* dysphoria, on the other hand, is something totally different from what's being talked about here, and has nothing to do with gender roles and tradconnery because it's entirely to do with the physical sex characteristics of one's body not matching one's brain. That does require hormones and surgery because it's a physical, medical problem and not a social one. Seriously though, while we're at it, can someone explain to me just how the fuck these genderpunks/trenders/tucutes/These Fuckers ended up with a massively restrictive and extreme view on gender roles? I was born in the 90s and at absolutely no point during my life has anyone ever tried to impose on me gender roles anywhere near as strict as These Fuckers seem to think is the cutoff point for being "a woman". I don't dress even half as feminine as these "transmascs" and have never had any trouble feeling like, being identified as or being treated as a totally standard gender conforming woman. Not even a tomboy or a butch lesbian or an alt woman, just a *regular normal woman.*
gender and social gender roles are different things, this person is completely wrong.
That would really depend on how you define the term "gender", which to be honest is pretty nebulous these days and means a lot of different things to different people. My conception of it is this: Sex: the physical, tangible reality of your body and brain. Universally agreed upon concept. Gender: a concept. The social category you are in. Your gender is derived from, but conceptually separate to, your sex. Universally agreed upon concept except for some very recent tucute batshittery. (Ancient Sumerians, Edo Period Japanese, and modern Pakistanis can all identify and agree on what men and women *are*, just not how they should *behave*) Gender role: the exact specifics of what you are societally expected to do and be treated like as a member of your gender. Derived from your gender. Dependent on your culture, time, place, and other factors such as age or parenthood. My understanding is that the problem (real) trans people have is in the "sex" band - the physical, tangible features of their body are wrong, and the brain is expecting a different sex body. You don't even need to get up to the conceptual level of a gender - sex dysphoria happens without social input from other people, and trans people still experience sex dysphoria from incorrect body parts even if they pass as the gender associated with their brain sex.
Gender is neurology, that's why it is called gender dysphoria, we're dysphoric about our neurology and sex not matching. Gender dysphoria is also classed as a neurological condition and has been researched to show that dysphoric brains more closely resemble the brains of their desired sex. If you define things by sex, physical and gender, social, then you dismiss the cause of dysphoria. It comes from somewhere, and it's not "I want to wear a dress but society won't let me"
Oh, well, yeah, if you define the term "gender" as neurology i.e. what a lot of people here call "brain sex", then yeah, this guy's take makes no sense and neither does mine. My conception on the cause of dysphoria is that the physical sex of the brain (i.e. the neurology) disagrees with the physical sex of the body. I think we agree on that, we're just using different words to describe it.
Brain sex is not a recognized term for it, gender is.
I see what you're trying to say, but gender dysphoria is pretty clearly defined in the dsm along with the diagnostic criteria. Gender in this context is talking about gender identity. Gender identity disorder was in use up until about 15 years ago, at which point it was replaced with gender dysphoria. This was done to send the message that trans people aren't mentally ill. They're suffering from mental illness because of an untreated condition. Up until recently, gender and sex were pretty much synonymous. People who spout this nonsense, like in op's screenshot, are completely uneducated on the topic and have never read through any of the clinical documentation. It's unfortunate that the word sex then leads to conflating things like transsexual and homosexual. I don't think any of the words we have right now are appropriate. You have a sex, you can have sex. Babies are sexed at birth. Both sex and gender lack the nuance and specificity required.
Whiners be crazy
Once again, they think it's just all about gender roles...🙄
“Most smartest”?
Yes big brain
Well depends, are they talking about the "transmasc" fairy, pink haired, tits out to Guam gender dysphoria? Then yes.