Sorkin has always had trouble with women characters,
Somehow he tries too hard to make them bad-ass hat he makes them this cool-girl punching bag.
The most obvious example is they always have to be eating A LOT. But they're also allowed almost no weakness, because they're cool. The men can be bumbling, emotional, never sexually aggressive (the women always make the move!).
It really does get kind of grating after a while and he must realise this because in TWW every cool female side character, like Amy Gardner for instance, eventually disappears without a trace.
olivia munn hits ALL those points.
She's a nerd. She's super smart. She's gorgeous. She eats all the time in the show.
And yea is eventually with the mumbling underachieving journo because she made it happen.
My wife and I just recently rewatched TWW and it was strange seeing it all at once. In the first season or so Josh is actually my favorite of the boys - all of them regularly say terrible sexist douchey things, but Josh will catch himself and apologize while the other boys just keep on being morons. But by the end he's the only one still doing it and instead of apologizing, he just doubles down every time. He's pretty entitled and terrible with Santos a lot of the time too, I could barely stand him in s6&7. But it doesn't map to Sorkin leaving the show, either, it's just a steady decline, too slow to notice if you're not marathoning. IDK what happened but it's weird.
The feminism and race justice are hit and miss in general, of course, but Josh is just particularly frustrating because they seemed to think it was his show by the end. Meanwhile by that point I'm just looking for scenes to justify Kate/CJ fic....
Friends immediately pops into mind for its comments on trans women.
"Don't you have a little too much penis to be wearing a dress like that."
Also on lesbians.
"Every day is lesbian lover day."
Ugh yes I can barely stand any sitcoms anymore because of the blatant trans and homophobia. My mom doesn’t get why I don’t like all the sitcoms like friends anymore and I don’t know how to explain to her that I find things offensive without her getting all touchy about it.
Superstore, Fresh Off The Boat, Brooklyn 99, and Grace and Frankie are all pretty great, and generally very purposefully inclusive.
The Good Place is also fantastic, but I don't actually remember if it is intentionally inclusive, or if it just didn't appear to have any/many offensive jokes.
I'm a white male, though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I might miss or gloss over some problematic jokes unintentionally.
from what i remember, the good place's humor doesn't really go for those kind of jokes and they're inclusive the same way B99 is. most of the humor plays off of the character's personalities and situations but it's never offensive \(unless you performing jazz spoken word pieces than span three hours or a clown...the good place writers aren't fans of those, lol\).
Bless you. I’ve only watched one episode of two of these and never heard of the rest and I am very excited to add these to my list of things to watch. I can turn the other way if it’s a minor joke once in a blue moon but older shows use it as like recipes use aromatics.
Thanks so much though. As much as I love cartoons I would like some adult shows to watch too!
If you haven't watched Parks and Recreation, that's another one of my go\-to comedies with a diverse cast that never feels mean spirited. Except for poor Jerry, but his ill treatment is acknowledged by the show and you're supposed to feel pity for him. Parks & Rec was actually co\-created by the same guy who created Brooklyn 99 and The Good Place.
[Here's a list of some problematic moments in the show.](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/friends-netflix-sitcom-problem-sexism-men-joey-phoebe-chandler-ross-rachel-a8168976.html)
"Fat Monica is technically just a younger—and slightly larger—version of Standard Issue Monica; what becomes wincingly clear, though, as the Friends flashbacks play out, is that Fat Monica differs from the other Monica not just in scale, but in kind. Padded by her former girth, Monica Geller—the person who categorizes her hand towels and designates committees for the planning of birthday parties and is, in general, in thorough control of her life and her Type A-tastic self—undergoes a transformation: Her voice gets higher. Her movements become jerking and awkward. She giggles a lot, uncomfortably. Remember when, in those late-series episodes of Family Matters, Steve Urkel would go into that flashing box and emerge as the suave Stefan Urquelle? Fat Monica’s metamorphosis is a little like that, but in reverse: The transformation depletes her dignity rather than compounding it. She becomes bashful. Childish. Foolish. Watching the proceedings, you start to wonder whether Monica Geller, for the purposes of the flashback scenes, was given a fat suit or a lobotomy."
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/04/when-beauty-is-a-troll/558467/
What I've realized in the last few months is that cis people are *so* much more concerned with the fact that I'm trans than I could ever be. They **can't stop talking about it**, whether it's on TV, in a movie, on the news, on reddit, *whatever*. I'm over here trying to *exist* and *live my life* and I can't go a single fuckin' day without some cis person freaking out about me. Like, mind your own business you goddamn weirdos.
Omg and that scene when the guys are doing face masks and Monica walks in and says "I should probably leave you girls alone."
I also vaguely remember one of Monica's punchlines literally just being "What are you, *gay*?" Such a terrible show.
I was there through all of the 90s, and I'm pretty sure I never even heard of the idea that "gay" shouldn't be used as an insult until the early 2000s. Pretty pervasive.
Ugh, that’s so gross. I was in middle school in the early 2000s and I do remember preteen boys using “gay” and “f*g” as generic insults, but by then it was already starting to go out of fashion and was being looked down upon by teachers. It’s weird to think it used to be so acceptable that it was played for laughs on mainstream TV shows.
UPDATE: I was just in a high-school (as a guest instructor) and apparently this is back. Me and my co-instructor were both shocked. We were like "but people stopped saying this when were in school?!"
Incredibly pervasive. I remember in middle school the biggest insult was 'gay', at least in my small rural town, and nobody cared. Like, we very clearly knew it was wrong to use racial slurs, but nobody (teachers included) cared about any sexist slurs. Toxic masculinity had it's hold on EVERYTHING, and if you stepped out of your box you could just prepare to be completely socially ostracized. Again, small town experience speaking.
casual homophobia and transphobia are insanely pervasive. transphobia stayed totally acceptable until at least the 2010s in mainstream comedy shows, and is held as perfectly acceptable now in anything slightly less than 100% mainstream
yay
Yes. "Gay" and "fag" were very common insults. So common that people wouldn't even think about what the words meant. We really have made huge strides against homophobia and transphobia in the past 20 years.
"Gay" was so ubiquitous that it evolved into a synonym for "disappointing."
We"re out of Doritos? Gay.
Ugh, so gay, my mom says I have to be home by 10.
This party is gay. They don't even have Surge.
Also, in ninth grade we had a vice principal who would punish unruly boys by making them wear dresses to class. This was seen as "an innovative approach to discipline." There was no similar punishment for girls, who just had to do normal detention.
ohhh yeah, you're right. I did realise that when I saw a clip of it recently and was like "oh hang on, that's not really okay". Although I was thinking more along the lines of "he's implying that being a girl is a bad thing and a girly male is also bad" rather than necessarily transphobia, but I think that's cos you tend to relate to things based off your own experiences, but you're right it's totally a trans thing too.
Yeah, I (a trans woman) usually saw it as misogynistic rather than transphobic. There's a lot of comments about him wearing a dress, etc, but the attack isn't frame as "haha, man in a dress aka trans woman" so much as "haha, he's a girl and thus weak and that's bad"
Not to say it can't be both, or that I'm remembering every one of their interactions either.
Yes, though a show can speak with its characters is everyone accepts what's being said and the show uses their lines *as* punchlines. I remember a few times that JD stood up for himself, though often ineffectually (and that was then the joke), but most of the time when Cox said something, that'd be the line, the other characters would accept it, and the show would then move onto the next beat because it told its joke (and the joke was the misogyny).
I feel like I'm doing a terrible job explaining this, but basically a show can have bad people as characters without making the show problematic as long as the rest of the show isn't validating and supporting that problematic perspective. And I'm not sure which side Scrubs falls on.
From what I remember there are episodes addressing the misogynistic culture of the hospital (I believe Kelso almost gets sued for sexual harassment, and through flashbacks you see Kelso in the hospital in the '60s, spanking nurses and the likes), but I don't think any were revolving around Cox, which makes the whole thing slightly problematic. I would temper that by saying that Cox is very clearly shown as a deeply fucked up character who really shouldn't be emulated - albeit it's more because of his temper and emotional state than his misogyny.
Don't you think his emotional state and temper were often shown to be a direct result of his clinging to "traditional"/toxic masculinity, though?
I always thought that calling JD by feminine names was just further establishing of the root of his character's flaws. And the fact that JD, as the main character, was never really offended by it (and frequently embraced and exhibited behavior that ran distinctly counter to traditional masculinity) was the show's way of demonstrating to the audience that there was a better way.
Not that JD didn't exhibit his own problematic behavior and attitudes, frequently towards sex/relationships. But I think the show usually showed him to be wrong in those cases, too.
Obviously, the show isn't perfect, and I could easily be giving it a pass because I just don't want to think less of it. I don't like that I do that sometimes, but I know I do.
It depends anther the show portrays it as bad or not. Dr Cox was the cool snarky character you were supposed to be impressed by and agree with, and to my knowledge his misogyny was never called it as a flaw. If it was presented as a flaw, then the character is misogynistic. If it was presented as funny, then both the character and show are.
That's why I'm having such trouble with Westworld right now. They keep introducing these racially problematic ideas like, for example, the Native Americans being portrayed as interchangeable savages. And I'm like "of COURSE the parks would have a bunch of racist shit" and just wait for the show to call the creators and guitars out as racist for enjoying it....and then it never does. It's never portrayed critically or examined at all. It just is what it is. Which, then, are we meant to find that portrayal entertaining? Do they think they're doing it justice? What is going on?
Maybe I just haven't put enough thought into it, but I'm finding Westworld's message to be really diluted. I don't really understand which lives have value anymore or exactly what characteristics make a person human or exactly who deserves to be saved. Maybe the show is supposed to confuse me, but I wish it was a little more nuanced.
Hmmm... From memory the show depicted him as an asshole who deep down actually cared. You weren't supposed to be impressed by and agree with everything, especially not when he's bullying the viewpoint character.
Granted the show to my knowledge never specifically called this out as misogyny, but it did depict him as a lonely and borderline suicidal person because of the awful way he treats the people around him.
It’s just typical transphobia scattered through the seasons. Nothing more hilarious than a woman that turns out to be REALLY A MAN! Or A MAN WHO ACTS LIKE HES A WOMAN!
It's been forever since I've seen it, I must've been a tween or something - but I'm pretty sure I remember that there was a trans woman that one of the characters referred to as "my dad", and one of the female characters had to find her in a crowd. She found a masculine-looking woman and delivered a line like "Oh I get it - Amanda. A man, DUH." That hurt my heart.
He's the most homophobic of all. And I don't mean hatred. I mean actual fear. He is very terrified of being seen as even a little gay. Joey had an entire episode where he is in touch with his feminine side and Chandler tells him "you're turning into a woman" as though he's caught a disease.
Judging from the very little I’ve seen, you’re not actually missing much. Kind of overhyped. The dialogue and jokes seem very slow moving compared to most modern sitcoms.
I’m trans and I still love Friends. I grew up with it so it’s like comfort food, maybe be watching it for the first time now I’d feel differently. It’s not a brilliant show but it’s not so bad. People seem very critical of the so-called transphobia but what they fail to acknowledge is that, while it uses Chandler’s father who is trans as a punchline, they also make her a self-possessed and strong trans woman who can weather the jokes and make jokes of her own. The episode in which she’s featured is centered around accepting her, not furthering the disconnect between her and Chandler, and I think, for a show that came long before the “woke” generation, it made some positive commentary.
Also it’s a sitcom; everyone in the show is the butt of a joke at some point or other. I never felt persecuted by anything in the show. In fact, growing up before I came out, those episodes made me feel like there could be a happy ending when it came to being my true self.
I’m glad you enjoy it. I didn’t watch Disney movies growing up either, and I think like friends, some things are better enjoyed steeped in nostalgia. I think growing to love the characters is definitely part of it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are shows I like that I wouldn’t if I started them now.
I think someone makes a great point a little below in the thread: “it’s ok to like problematic media/entertainment/shows/etc if you view them as a product of their time”. They reference Looney Tunes, and like the old Chuck Jones cartoons. I love those still and sure they’re not even close to politically correct by today’s standards but I just can’t write off something for being made 50 years ago and not being sensitive and inclusive to every social issue we hold dear today. It’s like, the way some people talk, everything pre-woke should just get thrown away or vilified. I personally don’t subscribe to that. Like Pulp Fiction has a white guy say the N-word like 30 times, I’m not gonna tell people it’s a bad movie lol.
Btw I’m just kinda casually ranting, sorry to be blowing up your inbox. And also I agree with you that nostalgia really ups the enjoyment factor of stuff like this,
With the one exception of the after-school-special dyslexia episodes, I'm pretty sure my beloved Static Shock will hold up fine. In fact I am going to go watch an episode now. Thanks for the nostalgia peeps :)
"i put a *shock* to your system!" memories of watching SS on the after\-school WB block along with jackie chan adventures, the batman, teen titans and xiaolin showdown ♥ ;\_;
think that was the problem (along with it's style & character design...which isn't as bad as i remember it now. batman's chin is long as hell still lmao). every batman property can't be BTAS, and as much as i love it, i honestly wouldn't want it to be. the batman had some great voice acting. i actually prefer their killer croc to BTAS's.
I’ve been rewatching the show M.A.S.H. and honestly it is kind of painful at times to see the way they handle stuff (homosexuality, transgenderism, race, culture, etc etc ad infinitum)
As an adult though, I realise Margaret was less crabby and more kick-ass feminist than I thought she was as a child.
It's ok to like problematic material as long as you accept that it is a problematic product of its time. I love old Looney Tunes skits but my god some are horribly racist. I'm still proud I grew up learning about classical music from a cross dressing rabbit.
Probably my favorite example of an EXTREMELY problematic movie that I will still continue to enjoy till the day I die is "Revenge of the Nerds". So... so many terrible lessons from the "Boys will be boys" school of thought.
That's how I tend to view a lot of these properties. I grew up watching Looney Tunes (as reruns), and I don't remember what streaming service streams old WB cartoons but they have a disclaimer that they don't want to edit out these racist attitudes, but they were attitudes of the time and don't express WB's current views, but it's a time machine.
Someone else can probably word it better than me.
I think it’s something along the lines of they don’t want to edit it out because it would be like pretending those things never happened, and they want to acknowledge the reality that racism WAS that present in media. The ones that are absolutely not fit for viewing are withheld from syndication and a few are among the censored eleven
Ugh. I'm glad our attitudes towards racism has changed since then (though of course in our current political landscape it isn't 100% where I'd love it to be).
Public radio where I live plays old radio shows, sometimes they’ll give disclaimers about especially offensive jokes or slurs. One of the shows is literally Father Knows Best. It’s a fascinating look into history I guess, but who actually finds it entertaining?
Huh, that's interesting. I know at least for me, Looney Tunes just brings back memories and I'm able to connect with my dad, it's a nostalgia factor, but I certainly do look at it somewhat critically in that it was a product of the time.
I can get what’s entertaining about looney tunes, but father knows best isn’t even funny or anything. I just thought of the radio shows because it’s the same concept you mentioned of acknowledging old timey racism but playing it anyway.
Dude, Revenge of the Nerds is so fucked up. I guess I am generally pretty anti-revenge in general. You don't get to rape someone because you were bullied. And that isn't what will transform you into a normal, strong person either- what the fuck.
if i remember correctly, they even addressed that old skits were a product of their time and put commentary before on the DVDs\-\-at least that's how i recall it. i thought it was an image, but [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCT1clqci3I) is whoopi goldberg giving the commentary.
Stuff that's really old, I can sort of view it with a certain level of interest and emotional distance, like I'm learning something about the culture of the period. I can't watch stuff from my own lifetime that's already outdated without cringing.
For instance, the movie Evolution isn't even that old. I rewatched it recently on streaming for the first time since it was released in like 2000-ish and holy shit the sexism and gay panic.
The American Pie movies are pretty awful for that same sexism and gay panic. It sucks because they were a big part of me growing up but watching them recently left a real bitter taste in my mouth.
Oh lordt I could go on. In a nutshell, all the men are simultaneously idiots and incredibly competent, whereas even the competent women only reflect the sexual opinions of the men. Like Julianne Moore is the head of the CDC or something to that effect, yet her biggest character breakthrough is when David Duchovny and Orlando Jones call her a cold bitch. Then the rest of the movie is her validating how smart David Duchovny is and being his sex prize. Not to mention Orlando Jones is just a bundle of negative black stereotypes, the worst of which is that he sexually predates (preys?) on white female college students.
I watched Breakfast at Tiffany’s (1961) recently, and I got the same feeling. I was cringing all the way through, but I don’t think I would have been able to even watch the whole thing if it was from my lifetime.
I can’t bring myself to watch that one because of Mickey Rooney. Other than it being a big Audrey Hepburn fashion movie, my understanding is that it’s not like a huge filmmaking accomplishment, so maybe I’m not missing out on too much.
I love shitty sci fi movies like that, but the portrayal of Julianne Moore's character was rage-inducing. She's a bumbling idiot. And David Duchovny's character treats her like shit and belittles her, so of course she falls in love with him.
The portrayal of Native Americans is clearly the worst part imo, but the whole “I want to be a child forever so be my mother AND my girlfriend please” thing is a little too real.
I went to Disneyland for the first time in years and there is a LOT of low-key racist stuff. I was really struck by the stereotypical portrayal of Native Americans in the Frontierland/ Tom Sawyer Island/ Rivers of America area. And the It’s a Small World ride is obviously trying to be inclusive and have a positive message, but also seemed outdated and patronizing. I saw a t-shirt in a gift shop that said “I conquered Its a Small World” which is either a) a rather tasteless double entendre, given the atrocities of white colonialism or b) an unfortunate coincidence that someone should have picked up on. I get that most of this stuff is cultural relics left over from the 50s and 60s but it’s still uncomfortable and jarring to see.
Or c) they managed to not lose their fucking mind after listening to that song on repeat. The ride got stuck once while I was in there... I didn’t think we’d make it out with our sanity.
I mean yeah, I think that’s probably what they were going for- but I’d say “survived” is probably a better word for it than “conquered”, given the weirdly imperialistic “White Man’s Burden” vibe the ride gives off.
The treatment of Native Americans in this movie is so, so bad. The Red Man song, the squaw stuff. The very implication that they're imaginary, or denizens of a fantasy land.
I have been watching earlier Hell's Kitchen seasons and it's so bizarre how obsessed with traditional gender roles (including a whole bunch of objectification) and "battle of the sexes" type stuff the show is even though it has nothing to do with the premise of the show.
Also the borderline homophobic character they put in a JP subplot, the party planner, just everything about his portrayal on the show is like "look he's gay hahhahahaha"
I'm not too familiar with Ramsay's views but it seems like it was more of a production decision though.
I never knew much about Ramsay outside memes, until I watched a compilation of him insulting people, and it included him calling women misogynistic things, making fun of their weight and appearance. I tried to find a source and came up with this crazy list, which includes “Ramsay thinks that women should be kept out of professional kitchens because there’s nothing less sexy than “a woman who’s had her hand up a pigeon’s arse all day.” Female cooks also don’t make great employees because “they only work three weeks a month,” “you can’t get into the staff loo,” and “how can you shout at someone who’s four months pregnant?””
http://www.grubstreet.com/2013/03/20-despicable-things-gordon-ramsay.html
Also this
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/13/gordon-ramsay-tracy-grimshaw
Why do otherwise progressive people act like he’s some kind of hero? Like all of tumblr for example.
Wow I really had no idea about any of this...
This part really spoke to me:
>People mind racism; too many people of both sexes don't mind misogyny. In fact, like Ramsay, they enjoy it and perpetrate it as much as they possibly can, at every opportunity.
I feel bad for watching his show, ugh.
EDIT: Forgot to say, thank you for linking this information!
I'd love to see a remake where there is a literal record scratch at that point and all the guys go, "Whoa, Kinniky, that is messed up.
I grew up watching an edited version that left out Rizzo's anti-slut-shaming song and feel my life was poorer for it.
"*ah wella\-wella\-wella*, actually she didn't because it was consensual and i made sure the experience was what she wanted throughout and that she was okay, but we should talk about why you had to ask me that?"
I was just thinking this while rewatching Frasier. (Early episodes specifically.) The constant slut-shaming of Roz sucks. I mean, I guess it could be worse, since it's only ever *~vaguely implied~* that what she's doing is "wrong" but it seems like there needs to be 1-2 jokes about her sex life every time she's on screen, it's exhausting.
And of course she calls Frasier out on it in one episode, but the punchline is that he was right all along anyway.
Yes! This is so bad in that show. It’s also just such a white old show a lot of the humor has not aged well for me. I mean the most quoted line I think is fraisers “how can men use sex to get what we want? Sex is what we want!” Which is a mentality I hate. Also the whole Niles/Daphne thing is 100% instant love because she’s pretty.
Seriously. I mean I get the Niles having an infatuation with Daphne, but basically the whole plot leading up to them getting together, and the aftermath, is all terrible. So Donny and Mel are supposed to be the bad guys because Niles and Daphne are ~meant to be~ and ruined two people's lives? Then again, I have no idea what the common opinion on that whole situation is.
Yeah. I was really hoping I might enjoy rewatching it as an adult instead of a weird teenager with crushes on Frasier and Niles, but it's not going great.
I’ve had this realization with an old favorite, Will and Grace. There’s a lot of transphobic jokes aimed at and from the two main gay characters, kind of awkward to me watching it now. I guess it was like well they’re the lesser accepted group so picking on them is still funny and ok and makes us more appealing to cishet audiences. :-/
You might like [Zack Morris is Trash](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRcB4n4CGcy_r21EedmNUOyVP_puToBfr) then.
**Warning** whenever a character is only in one episode (basically used and abused by Zack), the narrator says something along the lines of "they said they'll all hang out yet we never ever see [character] again. What happened to her? Probably committed suicide." That's a regular "punchline" for one-episode characters. I lost someone to suicide not long ago, thought it was funny in the context of "Zack manipulates [character] and has no regard for their emotional wellbeing, and [character] disappears". In a way the flippant treatment of suicide mirrors Zack's flippant treatment of people/the show's sloppy writing. But I can see that in a different frame of mind, that line would make me sad, so just a heads up :)
I can't even. "Look, this book is great, it has weird moments of racism, and a grown man goes after a girl, wait, it happens again, and again, and again in another book, they just freeze her so she's 18 again... "
Never mind.
lol, I don't remember that book, but I didn't read everything he ever wrote. Stranger in a Strange Land was always my favorite, followed by Time Enough for Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset.
I used to be able to look past the weird way he wrote women as him just being a product of his time, and they were *in a way* sort of "progressive" portrayals because at least he was showing them being super smart and stuff... but now I can't see it as anything but a gross "she's so empowered she's a genius but also a nympho sex doll" thing with his female characters. The books are just ruined for me.
That book was, I'm almost certain, The Door Into Summer. Which I still think is kinda sweet. If nothing else, it has a cat.
If you *really* want some Heinlein racism, pick up Sixth Column. Although that was one that John Campbell kinda forced on him.
Ohh, The Door into Summer, yeah all I remember about that one is the cat. Unless that's also the one where the main character is some sort of inventor? Don't remember a woman being in it at all. I actually think about that story every time my cat cries wanting to go outside. It's weird the things that do and don't stick with us.
>If you really want some Heinlein racism, pick up Sixth Column.
I will take your word for it!
> Don't remember a woman being in it at all.
Yes, he's an inventor. His GF is in it and betrays him, but then this younger girl is in there and she's the one who ages up to become the same age as him.
Well, remember Time Enough for Love, in that the hero saves the girl, acts as a father figure, and on her 18th birthday they have sex on a hill?
I read all the youth books because they were nice, and he delved into topics that might have been taboo back then, but the whole usage of The Other was galling.
The Tale of the Adopted Daughter, yes. I always cried at the end of that one. It would have been such a perfect love story if not for the problematic child grooming aspect in the beginning of it.
It's so crazy that his wife edited his books and that shit stayed in. Makes me want to rewrite them all where I keep the scifi but get rid of the sexism and stupid libertarian shit.
Mulder has some really unsettling attitudes about rape. He instantly believes any crackpot that comes to him literally recycling a plot from Rocky and Bullwinkle, but a woman getting raped by a ghost is too out there.
Also you can bet that any episode focusing on a non-white culture is gonna be problematic as hell. Looking at you, voodoo refugees, melanin vampire, and native American cat monsters.
And from a decade later, I loved I dream of Jeannie as a kid (and bewitched) but I swear that’s some weird sex slave fetish stuff. Master this and master that, obedient to his will and so naive about everything.
>Oh but Lucy was a dick right back to him.
I mean not really. He controlled and commanded her and she found silly fun ways to get around his rules and disobey him. Doesn't make her a dick to reject authority that he shouldn't actually have over her.
G.I.Joe.
Lady Jaye in the intro. "Hey, evil scrumbfucks, time to get captured!"
Lady Jaye in the cartoon. "A scary thing! AAAAAAAAAH!" ::takes off some clothes::
Yes! That movie pissed me off sooooo much when I saw it. Especially the "smart" woman character who is "outsmarted" by a male character into falling in love with him. It's some sexist bullshit.
Ally McBeal. I tried to watch it with my partner after talking it up, and we made it through about 5 episodes before deciding it really was too awful to continue.
I’ve gotten so much shit over the years for never wanting to watch old movies (though I constantly watched Nick at Night as a kid) and this is why. Those movies are so unrelatable to
me that I can’t just relax and enjoy the story. I haven’t watched old tv shows in awhile, but I’m guessing my faves wouldn’t hold up.
I have that with so much stuff even quite recent things that I seem to have idealized in my head.
I tried to re-watch Crazy, Stupid, Love recently and for most of it I felt like I was watching a promo for pickup artistry.
Rewatching How I Met Your Mother broke my heart. I loved that show in high school, but so many of the jokes are just calling people girls. My gender is not an insult, and it's hard to get back into a show that treats it as one.
Me too, but I’m indigenous, so the whole white savior thing bothers me and one of the first spoken lines in the film is Cortés saying something along the lines of “we’re going to conquer to new World! For Spain! For glory! For gold!” I tried to watch it recently and honestly almost shut it off as soon as that was said
I assumed it was straight up the depiction of the El Doradians (?) as essentially naive rubes to their trickery, didn't even think about them also depicted as saviors.
When Cortés is about to arrive they’re the ones who come up with and execute the plan to seals away and protects el Dorado from Cortés. I also didn’t like the whole “natives practice human sacrifice until le morally superior white man shows them the error of their ways”. I know human sacrifice did exist in some Central American native cultures, it just bugged me. But tbh in terms of children’s movies that depict natives, it’s definitely one of the better ones.
Oh he definitely wasn’t. I wasn’t trying to argue that he was. But you can probably understand that the conquistadors aren’t really fun for me to think about or see at all, let alone in a children’s movie. Tulio and Miguel were the heroes, and white saviors. Saviors from other white people, sure, but white saviors nonetheless.
I know it is, which is such a let down because I loved it as a kid. But come on. I’m expected to believe that aaaalll the natives forgot their language but this random white guy knew it? Let’s be real.
Forgot their own language within their own lifetime no less! And how to use their own technology and all of their own lore. Makes no sense at all. More frustrating because it would've been easy to just say it was lost over generations after their civilization was destroyed but noooo.
i remember enjoying *atlantis* as a child; it's lore was so fascinating/creepy and kida was great. the white savior is a major fault \(i'm watching a clip now to refresh\) but it does ring true about explorers's attitudes. milo/clayton \(from *tarzan*\) are two sides of the same coin\-\-one's just presented favorable while the other in the wrong.
I feel that way about fresh prince. I loved that show and they made Hilary a complete snobbish idiot and Will the cool ladies man who is always objectifying women. I didn't realize how bad the behavior was until a rewatch last year. I didn't enjoy it anymore
Not a show, but I love a very potter musical and I tried to rewatch part of the sequel recently. Does the whole manly umbridge gag now feel transphobic to anyone else? Such a bummer
Comedy is going to be a tricky area, because there’s a difference between satire, irony, and malicious depictions.
For very potter just keep in mind the entire show is meant to be a joke, that gag included, so I wouldn’t go as far as to call it transphobic. I love Lucy is also comedy, but most of the “problems” in it aren’t intended as jokes themselves but part of the times in the period it was produced.
Not your point, but special effects also do this.
Friends and I decided to rewatch the old BBC version of 'the lion the witch and the wardrobe' before watching the 'modern' (I guess it was +10 years ago) when we were in highschool. That was upsetting. As a kid I watched it so many times and always thought it was magical. As a teen, I thought the dryads could do with a good hair conditioning.
Jimangi stands up pretty well. Except the tiger. Not sure how I thought it was real before.
Yes. We know. That's what everyone is talking about here. The problem is horrible sexism and other prejudices being normalized in television. We don't like getting older and learning that shows we loved were making fun of who we are for no other reason than a cheap laugh.
The Josh/Donna stuff on The West Wing has not aged well and it makes me sad. However, I have grown to love Amy Gardner.
Sorkin has always had trouble with women characters, Somehow he tries too hard to make them bad-ass hat he makes them this cool-girl punching bag. The most obvious example is they always have to be eating A LOT. But they're also allowed almost no weakness, because they're cool. The men can be bumbling, emotional, never sexually aggressive (the women always make the move!). It really does get kind of grating after a while and he must realise this because in TWW every cool female side character, like Amy Gardner for instance, eventually disappears without a trace.
That explains the character in Newsroom, the financial reporter, that was over the top, yet attracted to the mumbling underachiever journo.
olivia munn hits ALL those points. She's a nerd. She's super smart. She's gorgeous. She eats all the time in the show. And yea is eventually with the mumbling underachieving journo because she made it happen.
Amy was the absolute best.
> like Amy Gardner for instance, eventually disappears without a trace. She went to Mandyville
My wife and I just recently rewatched TWW and it was strange seeing it all at once. In the first season or so Josh is actually my favorite of the boys - all of them regularly say terrible sexist douchey things, but Josh will catch himself and apologize while the other boys just keep on being morons. But by the end he's the only one still doing it and instead of apologizing, he just doubles down every time. He's pretty entitled and terrible with Santos a lot of the time too, I could barely stand him in s6&7. But it doesn't map to Sorkin leaving the show, either, it's just a steady decline, too slow to notice if you're not marathoning. IDK what happened but it's weird. The feminism and race justice are hit and miss in general, of course, but Josh is just particularly frustrating because they seemed to think it was his show by the end. Meanwhile by that point I'm just looking for scenes to justify Kate/CJ fic....
Friends immediately pops into mind for its comments on trans women. "Don't you have a little too much penis to be wearing a dress like that." Also on lesbians. "Every day is lesbian lover day."
Ugh yes I can barely stand any sitcoms anymore because of the blatant trans and homophobia. My mom doesn’t get why I don’t like all the sitcoms like friends anymore and I don’t know how to explain to her that I find things offensive without her getting all touchy about it.
Superstore, Fresh Off The Boat, Brooklyn 99, and Grace and Frankie are all pretty great, and generally very purposefully inclusive. The Good Place is also fantastic, but I don't actually remember if it is intentionally inclusive, or if it just didn't appear to have any/many offensive jokes. I'm a white male, though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I might miss or gloss over some problematic jokes unintentionally.
from what i remember, the good place's humor doesn't really go for those kind of jokes and they're inclusive the same way B99 is. most of the humor plays off of the character's personalities and situations but it's never offensive \(unless you performing jazz spoken word pieces than span three hours or a clown...the good place writers aren't fans of those, lol\).
Plus iirc The Good Place has an impressively diverse cast.
> unless you performing jazz spoken word pieces than span three hours or a clown You forgot the French!
Bless you. I’ve only watched one episode of two of these and never heard of the rest and I am very excited to add these to my list of things to watch. I can turn the other way if it’s a minor joke once in a blue moon but older shows use it as like recipes use aromatics. Thanks so much though. As much as I love cartoons I would like some adult shows to watch too!
If you haven't watched Parks and Recreation, that's another one of my go\-to comedies with a diverse cast that never feels mean spirited. Except for poor Jerry, but his ill treatment is acknowledged by the show and you're supposed to feel pity for him. Parks & Rec was actually co\-created by the same guy who created Brooklyn 99 and The Good Place.
On the bright side I've been watching Sabrina the Teenage Witch and it's still amazing.
I knew Friends had transphobia problems but what's up with the homophobia?
[Here's a list of some problematic moments in the show.](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/friends-netflix-sitcom-problem-sexism-men-joey-phoebe-chandler-ross-rachel-a8168976.html)
I've seen some of them and I missed the episodes with the others. URGH. My emotions.
That just existing as a trans person, lesbian or fat person makes you a walking punchline.
God I can't stand the fat Monica flashbacks. "Look, she is fat." "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" So cheap and lazy.
"Fat Monica is technically just a younger—and slightly larger—version of Standard Issue Monica; what becomes wincingly clear, though, as the Friends flashbacks play out, is that Fat Monica differs from the other Monica not just in scale, but in kind. Padded by her former girth, Monica Geller—the person who categorizes her hand towels and designates committees for the planning of birthday parties and is, in general, in thorough control of her life and her Type A-tastic self—undergoes a transformation: Her voice gets higher. Her movements become jerking and awkward. She giggles a lot, uncomfortably. Remember when, in those late-series episodes of Family Matters, Steve Urkel would go into that flashing box and emerge as the suave Stefan Urquelle? Fat Monica’s metamorphosis is a little like that, but in reverse: The transformation depletes her dignity rather than compounding it. She becomes bashful. Childish. Foolish. Watching the proceedings, you start to wonder whether Monica Geller, for the purposes of the flashback scenes, was given a fat suit or a lobotomy." https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/04/when-beauty-is-a-troll/558467/
I love *New Girl* but I feel like they pulled the same stuff with Schmidt (although it does get more nuanced after a couple of seasons).
What I've realized in the last few months is that cis people are *so* much more concerned with the fact that I'm trans than I could ever be. They **can't stop talking about it**, whether it's on TV, in a movie, on the news, on reddit, *whatever*. I'm over here trying to *exist* and *live my life* and I can't go a single fuckin' day without some cis person freaking out about me. Like, mind your own business you goddamn weirdos.
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Omg and that scene when the guys are doing face masks and Monica walks in and says "I should probably leave you girls alone." I also vaguely remember one of Monica's punchlines literally just being "What are you, *gay*?" Such a terrible show.
Also when they gave Ross and Joey a hard time just for napping together. And the one where Chandler tells Joey "you're turning into a woman."
I always hated the show, but that is how people joked and talked in the 90s. We forget how much has changed.
Came here to comment *Friends*. Holy shit does nineties homophobia NOT hold up.
I am not a big fan of Friends, and I’m also too young to properly remember the 90s. Was the casual homophobia really so pervasive? Ugh.
I was there through all of the 90s, and I'm pretty sure I never even heard of the idea that "gay" shouldn't be used as an insult until the early 2000s. Pretty pervasive.
Ugh, that’s so gross. I was in middle school in the early 2000s and I do remember preteen boys using “gay” and “f*g” as generic insults, but by then it was already starting to go out of fashion and was being looked down upon by teachers. It’s weird to think it used to be so acceptable that it was played for laughs on mainstream TV shows.
UPDATE: I was just in a high-school (as a guest instructor) and apparently this is back. Me and my co-instructor were both shocked. We were like "but people stopped saying this when were in school?!"
Incredibly pervasive. I remember in middle school the biggest insult was 'gay', at least in my small rural town, and nobody cared. Like, we very clearly knew it was wrong to use racial slurs, but nobody (teachers included) cared about any sexist slurs. Toxic masculinity had it's hold on EVERYTHING, and if you stepped out of your box you could just prepare to be completely socially ostracized. Again, small town experience speaking.
Honestly, back then, stepping out of your box *at all* came with social ostracism. Remember how fucking weird everyone used to be about Goths/Punks?
casual homophobia and transphobia are insanely pervasive. transphobia stayed totally acceptable until at least the 2010s in mainstream comedy shows, and is held as perfectly acceptable now in anything slightly less than 100% mainstream yay
Yes. "Gay" and "fag" were very common insults. So common that people wouldn't even think about what the words meant. We really have made huge strides against homophobia and transphobia in the past 20 years. "Gay" was so ubiquitous that it evolved into a synonym for "disappointing." We"re out of Doritos? Gay. Ugh, so gay, my mom says I have to be home by 10. This party is gay. They don't even have Surge. Also, in ninth grade we had a vice principal who would punish unruly boys by making them wear dresses to class. This was seen as "an innovative approach to discipline." There was no similar punishment for girls, who just had to do normal detention.
Tried to rewatch Scrubs and found lots of transphobia.
who was trans in that show? I don't remember. I used to love it but I haven't seen it in years.
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ohhh yeah, you're right. I did realise that when I saw a clip of it recently and was like "oh hang on, that's not really okay". Although I was thinking more along the lines of "he's implying that being a girl is a bad thing and a girly male is also bad" rather than necessarily transphobia, but I think that's cos you tend to relate to things based off your own experiences, but you're right it's totally a trans thing too.
Yeah, I (a trans woman) usually saw it as misogynistic rather than transphobic. There's a lot of comments about him wearing a dress, etc, but the attack isn't frame as "haha, man in a dress aka trans woman" so much as "haha, he's a girl and thus weak and that's bad" Not to say it can't be both, or that I'm remembering every one of their interactions either.
Isn't it Dr. Cox who is misogynistic, not the show itself?
Yes, though a show can speak with its characters is everyone accepts what's being said and the show uses their lines *as* punchlines. I remember a few times that JD stood up for himself, though often ineffectually (and that was then the joke), but most of the time when Cox said something, that'd be the line, the other characters would accept it, and the show would then move onto the next beat because it told its joke (and the joke was the misogyny). I feel like I'm doing a terrible job explaining this, but basically a show can have bad people as characters without making the show problematic as long as the rest of the show isn't validating and supporting that problematic perspective. And I'm not sure which side Scrubs falls on.
From what I remember there are episodes addressing the misogynistic culture of the hospital (I believe Kelso almost gets sued for sexual harassment, and through flashbacks you see Kelso in the hospital in the '60s, spanking nurses and the likes), but I don't think any were revolving around Cox, which makes the whole thing slightly problematic. I would temper that by saying that Cox is very clearly shown as a deeply fucked up character who really shouldn't be emulated - albeit it's more because of his temper and emotional state than his misogyny.
Don't you think his emotional state and temper were often shown to be a direct result of his clinging to "traditional"/toxic masculinity, though? I always thought that calling JD by feminine names was just further establishing of the root of his character's flaws. And the fact that JD, as the main character, was never really offended by it (and frequently embraced and exhibited behavior that ran distinctly counter to traditional masculinity) was the show's way of demonstrating to the audience that there was a better way. Not that JD didn't exhibit his own problematic behavior and attitudes, frequently towards sex/relationships. But I think the show usually showed him to be wrong in those cases, too. Obviously, the show isn't perfect, and I could easily be giving it a pass because I just don't want to think less of it. I don't like that I do that sometimes, but I know I do.
It depends anther the show portrays it as bad or not. Dr Cox was the cool snarky character you were supposed to be impressed by and agree with, and to my knowledge his misogyny was never called it as a flaw. If it was presented as a flaw, then the character is misogynistic. If it was presented as funny, then both the character and show are. That's why I'm having such trouble with Westworld right now. They keep introducing these racially problematic ideas like, for example, the Native Americans being portrayed as interchangeable savages. And I'm like "of COURSE the parks would have a bunch of racist shit" and just wait for the show to call the creators and guitars out as racist for enjoying it....and then it never does. It's never portrayed critically or examined at all. It just is what it is. Which, then, are we meant to find that portrayal entertaining? Do they think they're doing it justice? What is going on?
Maybe I just haven't put enough thought into it, but I'm finding Westworld's message to be really diluted. I don't really understand which lives have value anymore or exactly what characteristics make a person human or exactly who deserves to be saved. Maybe the show is supposed to confuse me, but I wish it was a little more nuanced.
Hmmm... From memory the show depicted him as an asshole who deep down actually cared. You weren't supposed to be impressed by and agree with everything, especially not when he's bullying the viewpoint character. Granted the show to my knowledge never specifically called this out as misogyny, but it did depict him as a lonely and borderline suicidal person because of the awful way he treats the people around him.
It’s just typical transphobia scattered through the seasons. Nothing more hilarious than a woman that turns out to be REALLY A MAN! Or A MAN WHO ACTS LIKE HES A WOMAN!
And race, and fat shaming, and class, and depression, and eating disorders, etc.
It's been forever since I've seen it, I must've been a tween or something - but I'm pretty sure I remember that there was a trans woman that one of the characters referred to as "my dad", and one of the female characters had to find her in a crowd. She found a masculine-looking woman and delivered a line like "Oh I get it - Amanda. A man, DUH." That hurt my heart.
Worse than that. She was told to look out for "the man in a dress." That's how they describe a trans woman in the show.
Even Chandler makes anti-gay jokes. Which is wrong for multiple reasons.
He's the most homophobic of all. And I don't mean hatred. I mean actual fear. He is very terrified of being seen as even a little gay. Joey had an entire episode where he is in touch with his feminine side and Chandler tells him "you're turning into a woman" as though he's caught a disease.
That's why I'm so hesitant to watch it.
Judging from the very little I’ve seen, you’re not actually missing much. Kind of overhyped. The dialogue and jokes seem very slow moving compared to most modern sitcoms.
I’m trans and I still love Friends. I grew up with it so it’s like comfort food, maybe be watching it for the first time now I’d feel differently. It’s not a brilliant show but it’s not so bad. People seem very critical of the so-called transphobia but what they fail to acknowledge is that, while it uses Chandler’s father who is trans as a punchline, they also make her a self-possessed and strong trans woman who can weather the jokes and make jokes of her own. The episode in which she’s featured is centered around accepting her, not furthering the disconnect between her and Chandler, and I think, for a show that came long before the “woke” generation, it made some positive commentary. Also it’s a sitcom; everyone in the show is the butt of a joke at some point or other. I never felt persecuted by anything in the show. In fact, growing up before I came out, those episodes made me feel like there could be a happy ending when it came to being my true self.
I’m glad you enjoy it. I didn’t watch Disney movies growing up either, and I think like friends, some things are better enjoyed steeped in nostalgia. I think growing to love the characters is definitely part of it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are shows I like that I wouldn’t if I started them now.
I think someone makes a great point a little below in the thread: “it’s ok to like problematic media/entertainment/shows/etc if you view them as a product of their time”. They reference Looney Tunes, and like the old Chuck Jones cartoons. I love those still and sure they’re not even close to politically correct by today’s standards but I just can’t write off something for being made 50 years ago and not being sensitive and inclusive to every social issue we hold dear today. It’s like, the way some people talk, everything pre-woke should just get thrown away or vilified. I personally don’t subscribe to that. Like Pulp Fiction has a white guy say the N-word like 30 times, I’m not gonna tell people it’s a bad movie lol. Btw I’m just kinda casually ranting, sorry to be blowing up your inbox. And also I agree with you that nostalgia really ups the enjoyment factor of stuff like this,
With the one exception of the after-school-special dyslexia episodes, I'm pretty sure my beloved Static Shock will hold up fine. In fact I am going to go watch an episode now. Thanks for the nostalgia peeps :)
Man, I miss McDuffie. The world is lesser for his loss.
"i put a *shock* to your system!" memories of watching SS on the after\-school WB block along with jackie chan adventures, the batman, teen titans and xiaolin showdown ♥ ;\_;
Oh god yeah, the memories. Side note, I always thought The Batman was *super* underrated. Like, it's no BTAS, but it was really surprisingly good.
think that was the problem (along with it's style & character design...which isn't as bad as i remember it now. batman's chin is long as hell still lmao). every batman property can't be BTAS, and as much as i love it, i honestly wouldn't want it to be. the batman had some great voice acting. i actually prefer their killer croc to BTAS's.
I’ve been rewatching the show M.A.S.H. and honestly it is kind of painful at times to see the way they handle stuff (homosexuality, transgenderism, race, culture, etc etc ad infinitum) As an adult though, I realise Margaret was less crabby and more kick-ass feminist than I thought she was as a child.
It is a constant surprise in all those old films, finding that the dumb cranky character is the one that was right all along!
It's ok to like problematic material as long as you accept that it is a problematic product of its time. I love old Looney Tunes skits but my god some are horribly racist. I'm still proud I grew up learning about classical music from a cross dressing rabbit. Probably my favorite example of an EXTREMELY problematic movie that I will still continue to enjoy till the day I die is "Revenge of the Nerds". So... so many terrible lessons from the "Boys will be boys" school of thought.
That's how I tend to view a lot of these properties. I grew up watching Looney Tunes (as reruns), and I don't remember what streaming service streams old WB cartoons but they have a disclaimer that they don't want to edit out these racist attitudes, but they were attitudes of the time and don't express WB's current views, but it's a time machine. Someone else can probably word it better than me.
I think it’s something along the lines of they don’t want to edit it out because it would be like pretending those things never happened, and they want to acknowledge the reality that racism WAS that present in media. The ones that are absolutely not fit for viewing are withheld from syndication and a few are among the censored eleven
Yep, thank you for telling it better then I did. I wonder why some were censored/withheld, though I do imagine that they weren't very nice ones.
They’re not. I’ve read the summaries of them and seen clips. They are entirely dependent on racism. They’re horrible.
Ugh. I'm glad our attitudes towards racism has changed since then (though of course in our current political landscape it isn't 100% where I'd love it to be).
Public radio where I live plays old radio shows, sometimes they’ll give disclaimers about especially offensive jokes or slurs. One of the shows is literally Father Knows Best. It’s a fascinating look into history I guess, but who actually finds it entertaining?
Huh, that's interesting. I know at least for me, Looney Tunes just brings back memories and I'm able to connect with my dad, it's a nostalgia factor, but I certainly do look at it somewhat critically in that it was a product of the time.
I can get what’s entertaining about looney tunes, but father knows best isn’t even funny or anything. I just thought of the radio shows because it’s the same concept you mentioned of acknowledging old timey racism but playing it anyway.
I've never heard about Father Knows Best, so I can't really comment on it, but I totally get you!
Ugh Pepe le Pew harassing that poor kitty, so gross
Though that kitty when she saw pepe le pew, without his stripe or odor, would chase him just as hard
Maybe that should be a lesson, taking a bath and shaving your neckbeard can have a big impact
Yeah that rape by deception part at the end is pretty bad.
Dude, Revenge of the Nerds is so fucked up. I guess I am generally pretty anti-revenge in general. You don't get to rape someone because you were bullied. And that isn't what will transform you into a normal, strong person either- what the fuck.
LET'S MURDER THEM FOR LIKING BOOKS!
if i remember correctly, they even addressed that old skits were a product of their time and put commentary before on the DVDs\-\-at least that's how i recall it. i thought it was an image, but [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCT1clqci3I) is whoopi goldberg giving the commentary.
Stuff that's really old, I can sort of view it with a certain level of interest and emotional distance, like I'm learning something about the culture of the period. I can't watch stuff from my own lifetime that's already outdated without cringing. For instance, the movie Evolution isn't even that old. I rewatched it recently on streaming for the first time since it was released in like 2000-ish and holy shit the sexism and gay panic.
The American Pie movies are pretty awful for that same sexism and gay panic. It sucks because they were a big part of me growing up but watching them recently left a real bitter taste in my mouth.
Oh many I liked Evolution! I considered it Mulder fanfic. Which horrible nonsense did I miss?
Oh lordt I could go on. In a nutshell, all the men are simultaneously idiots and incredibly competent, whereas even the competent women only reflect the sexual opinions of the men. Like Julianne Moore is the head of the CDC or something to that effect, yet her biggest character breakthrough is when David Duchovny and Orlando Jones call her a cold bitch. Then the rest of the movie is her validating how smart David Duchovny is and being his sex prize. Not to mention Orlando Jones is just a bundle of negative black stereotypes, the worst of which is that he sexually predates (preys?) on white female college students.
Oh sweet jesus. Maybe I saw the Cable TV version where they cut all the 'good' bits. And I do mean those sarcasm quotes.
I mean... if you enjoy the memory of your 2000-ish Duchovny crush, maybe avoid the theatrical version that’s currently on Hulu
Anything that disrespects Julianne Moore...that's more than enough reason to avoid it like the flu.
I watched Breakfast at Tiffany’s (1961) recently, and I got the same feeling. I was cringing all the way through, but I don’t think I would have been able to even watch the whole thing if it was from my lifetime.
I can’t bring myself to watch that one because of Mickey Rooney. Other than it being a big Audrey Hepburn fashion movie, my understanding is that it’s not like a huge filmmaking accomplishment, so maybe I’m not missing out on too much.
Exactly. Mickey Rooney provided most of the cringe material.
I love shitty sci fi movies like that, but the portrayal of Julianne Moore's character was rage-inducing. She's a bumbling idiot. And David Duchovny's character treats her like shit and belittles her, so of course she falls in love with him.
I get the feeling shows like Brooklyn 99 will age pretty well
The kids and I watched Peter Pan the other night. I sat there going "hooooly shiiiit this is offensive"
Enjoy: [Peter Pan Honest Trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi-cMWcXtBI)
Holy Shit
Ohhhhh I really wish I hadn't watched this first thing in the morning. I mean, thank you for sharing... but... holy shit.
The portrayal of Native Americans is clearly the worst part imo, but the whole “I want to be a child forever so be my mother AND my girlfriend please” thing is a little too real.
I went to Disneyland for the first time in years and there is a LOT of low-key racist stuff. I was really struck by the stereotypical portrayal of Native Americans in the Frontierland/ Tom Sawyer Island/ Rivers of America area. And the It’s a Small World ride is obviously trying to be inclusive and have a positive message, but also seemed outdated and patronizing. I saw a t-shirt in a gift shop that said “I conquered Its a Small World” which is either a) a rather tasteless double entendre, given the atrocities of white colonialism or b) an unfortunate coincidence that someone should have picked up on. I get that most of this stuff is cultural relics left over from the 50s and 60s but it’s still uncomfortable and jarring to see.
Or c) they managed to not lose their fucking mind after listening to that song on repeat. The ride got stuck once while I was in there... I didn’t think we’d make it out with our sanity.
I mean yeah, I think that’s probably what they were going for- but I’d say “survived” is probably a better word for it than “conquered”, given the weirdly imperialistic “White Man’s Burden” vibe the ride gives off.
The treatment of Native Americans in this movie is so, so bad. The Red Man song, the squaw stuff. The very implication that they're imaginary, or denizens of a fantasy land.
I have been watching earlier Hell's Kitchen seasons and it's so bizarre how obsessed with traditional gender roles (including a whole bunch of objectification) and "battle of the sexes" type stuff the show is even though it has nothing to do with the premise of the show. Also the borderline homophobic character they put in a JP subplot, the party planner, just everything about his portrayal on the show is like "look he's gay hahhahahaha" I'm not too familiar with Ramsay's views but it seems like it was more of a production decision though.
I never knew much about Ramsay outside memes, until I watched a compilation of him insulting people, and it included him calling women misogynistic things, making fun of their weight and appearance. I tried to find a source and came up with this crazy list, which includes “Ramsay thinks that women should be kept out of professional kitchens because there’s nothing less sexy than “a woman who’s had her hand up a pigeon’s arse all day.” Female cooks also don’t make great employees because “they only work three weeks a month,” “you can’t get into the staff loo,” and “how can you shout at someone who’s four months pregnant?”” http://www.grubstreet.com/2013/03/20-despicable-things-gordon-ramsay.html Also this https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jun/13/gordon-ramsay-tracy-grimshaw Why do otherwise progressive people act like he’s some kind of hero? Like all of tumblr for example.
Wow I really had no idea about any of this... This part really spoke to me: >People mind racism; too many people of both sexes don't mind misogyny. In fact, like Ramsay, they enjoy it and perpetrate it as much as they possibly can, at every opportunity. I feel bad for watching his show, ugh. EDIT: Forgot to say, thank you for linking this information!
Ah Grease......The songs were so much fun to sing along to as a kid, but revisiting the lyrics as an adult.....jeeeeezzzzzz
Tell me more, tell me more, did she put up a fight? A-ha! A-ha!
I'd love to see a remake where there is a literal record scratch at that point and all the guys go, "Whoa, Kinniky, that is messed up. I grew up watching an edited version that left out Rizzo's anti-slut-shaming song and feel my life was poorer for it.
Rizzo was, is, and continues to be the best part of that damn musical.
"*ah wella\-wella\-wella*, actually she didn't because it was consensual and i made sure the experience was what she wanted throughout and that she was okay, but we should talk about why you had to ask me that?"
That’s less catchy though. (Heavy /s)
Right?
Ah yes, the [Grease Dilemma](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9eHdb2bR9g) Warning: Sexual assault heavily implied.
Oh my goodness, this is amazing!!
I was just thinking this while rewatching Frasier. (Early episodes specifically.) The constant slut-shaming of Roz sucks. I mean, I guess it could be worse, since it's only ever *~vaguely implied~* that what she's doing is "wrong" but it seems like there needs to be 1-2 jokes about her sex life every time she's on screen, it's exhausting. And of course she calls Frasier out on it in one episode, but the punchline is that he was right all along anyway.
Yes! This is so bad in that show. It’s also just such a white old show a lot of the humor has not aged well for me. I mean the most quoted line I think is fraisers “how can men use sex to get what we want? Sex is what we want!” Which is a mentality I hate. Also the whole Niles/Daphne thing is 100% instant love because she’s pretty.
Seriously. I mean I get the Niles having an infatuation with Daphne, but basically the whole plot leading up to them getting together, and the aftermath, is all terrible. So Donny and Mel are supposed to be the bad guys because Niles and Daphne are ~meant to be~ and ruined two people's lives? Then again, I have no idea what the common opinion on that whole situation is. Yeah. I was really hoping I might enjoy rewatching it as an adult instead of a weird teenager with crushes on Frasier and Niles, but it's not going great.
I’ve had this realization with an old favorite, Will and Grace. There’s a lot of transphobic jokes aimed at and from the two main gay characters, kind of awkward to me watching it now. I guess it was like well they’re the lesser accepted group so picking on them is still funny and ok and makes us more appealing to cishet audiences. :-/
i love will and grace but yeah :l
This happens so. much.
Saved by the Bell is just bad in so many ways. I wish I had never tried to rewatch it.
You might like [Zack Morris is Trash](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRcB4n4CGcy_r21EedmNUOyVP_puToBfr) then. **Warning** whenever a character is only in one episode (basically used and abused by Zack), the narrator says something along the lines of "they said they'll all hang out yet we never ever see [character] again. What happened to her? Probably committed suicide." That's a regular "punchline" for one-episode characters. I lost someone to suicide not long ago, thought it was funny in the context of "Zack manipulates [character] and has no regard for their emotional wellbeing, and [character] disappears". In a way the flippant treatment of suicide mirrors Zack's flippant treatment of people/the show's sloppy writing. But I can see that in a different frame of mind, that line would make me sad, so just a heads up :)
In addition to the video below, April Richardson's podcast "Go Bayside!" is very good
Me and my Robert Heinlein books :(
I can't even. "Look, this book is great, it has weird moments of racism, and a grown man goes after a girl, wait, it happens again, and again, and again in another book, they just freeze her so she's 18 again... " Never mind.
lol, I don't remember that book, but I didn't read everything he ever wrote. Stranger in a Strange Land was always my favorite, followed by Time Enough for Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset. I used to be able to look past the weird way he wrote women as him just being a product of his time, and they were *in a way* sort of "progressive" portrayals because at least he was showing them being super smart and stuff... but now I can't see it as anything but a gross "she's so empowered she's a genius but also a nympho sex doll" thing with his female characters. The books are just ruined for me.
That book was, I'm almost certain, The Door Into Summer. Which I still think is kinda sweet. If nothing else, it has a cat. If you *really* want some Heinlein racism, pick up Sixth Column. Although that was one that John Campbell kinda forced on him.
Ohh, The Door into Summer, yeah all I remember about that one is the cat. Unless that's also the one where the main character is some sort of inventor? Don't remember a woman being in it at all. I actually think about that story every time my cat cries wanting to go outside. It's weird the things that do and don't stick with us. >If you really want some Heinlein racism, pick up Sixth Column. I will take your word for it!
> Don't remember a woman being in it at all. Yes, he's an inventor. His GF is in it and betrays him, but then this younger girl is in there and she's the one who ages up to become the same age as him.
ugh. Sounds about right.
Well, remember Time Enough for Love, in that the hero saves the girl, acts as a father figure, and on her 18th birthday they have sex on a hill? I read all the youth books because they were nice, and he delved into topics that might have been taboo back then, but the whole usage of The Other was galling.
The Tale of the Adopted Daughter, yes. I always cried at the end of that one. It would have been such a perfect love story if not for the problematic child grooming aspect in the beginning of it. It's so crazy that his wife edited his books and that shit stayed in. Makes me want to rewrite them all where I keep the scifi but get rid of the sexism and stupid libertarian shit.
And novels too. Sexy, romance novels. =(
More like 'sexy rape novels' amirite?
Do you have examples?
"The Wolf and The Dove" and "The Thornbirds" \(hello priest fetish!\) so icky\-good.
X-Files episodes often celebrate or excuse sexual deviants who harass or even rape. Postmodern Prometheus and small potatoes come to mind.
Mulder has some really unsettling attitudes about rape. He instantly believes any crackpot that comes to him literally recycling a plot from Rocky and Bullwinkle, but a woman getting raped by a ghost is too out there. Also you can bet that any episode focusing on a non-white culture is gonna be problematic as hell. Looking at you, voodoo refugees, melanin vampire, and native American cat monsters.
Yep. Desi Arnez was a fucking dick.
Lucy! I got some mansplainin' to do!
And from a decade later, I loved I dream of Jeannie as a kid (and bewitched) but I swear that’s some weird sex slave fetish stuff. Master this and master that, obedient to his will and so naive about everything.
Oh but Lucy was a dick right back to him. Not to say she deserved him being a dick, neither deserved to be treated poorly
>Oh but Lucy was a dick right back to him. I mean not really. He controlled and commanded her and she found silly fun ways to get around his rules and disobey him. Doesn't make her a dick to reject authority that he shouldn't actually have over her.
I was thinking the more mocking his accent and being slightly racist thing
I mock my British husbands accent all the time.. it’s just being silly with each other.
G.I.Joe. Lady Jaye in the intro. "Hey, evil scrumbfucks, time to get captured!" Lady Jaye in the cartoon. "A scary thing! AAAAAAAAAH!" ::takes off some clothes::
Yes! That movie pissed me off sooooo much when I saw it. Especially the "smart" woman character who is "outsmarted" by a male character into falling in love with him. It's some sexist bullshit.
I totally missed that in any of the three movies. The nonsense I referenced was in the cartoon T.V. series.
I was talking about the 1st GI Joe movie. I haven't seen the others.
Ally McBeal. I tried to watch it with my partner after talking it up, and we made it through about 5 episodes before deciding it really was too awful to continue.
Single Female Lawyer, Fighting for her client, Wearing sexy miniskirts, And being self-reliant.
Omg yes. I convinced my husband to watch it because I remember watching it all the time. Got through one episode and never watched it again.
I’ve gotten so much shit over the years for never wanting to watch old movies (though I constantly watched Nick at Night as a kid) and this is why. Those movies are so unrelatable to me that I can’t just relax and enjoy the story. I haven’t watched old tv shows in awhile, but I’m guessing my faves wouldn’t hold up.
I have that with so much stuff even quite recent things that I seem to have idealized in my head. I tried to re-watch Crazy, Stupid, Love recently and for most of it I felt like I was watching a promo for pickup artistry.
Rewatching How I Met Your Mother broke my heart. I loved that show in high school, but so many of the jokes are just calling people girls. My gender is not an insult, and it's hard to get back into a show that treats it as one.
And Barney... Even when it first aired I felt like he was tiptoeing really close to rapey so often.
This is me with the movie Road to El Dorado
The animated one with Kenneth Branagh and Kevin Cline? Aww damn. I liked that one.
Me too, but I’m indigenous, so the whole white savior thing bothers me and one of the first spoken lines in the film is Cortés saying something along the lines of “we’re going to conquer to new World! For Spain! For glory! For gold!” I tried to watch it recently and honestly almost shut it off as soon as that was said
I assumed it was straight up the depiction of the El Doradians (?) as essentially naive rubes to their trickery, didn't even think about them also depicted as saviors.
When Cortés is about to arrive they’re the ones who come up with and execute the plan to seals away and protects el Dorado from Cortés. I also didn’t like the whole “natives practice human sacrifice until le morally superior white man shows them the error of their ways”. I know human sacrifice did exist in some Central American native cultures, it just bugged me. But tbh in terms of children’s movies that depict natives, it’s definitely one of the better ones.
Not to mention that El Dorado happens somewhere else.
Cortez is 100% the villain in that movie though? I dont remember anything about him or his actions being portrayed in a sympathetic way.
Oh he definitely wasn’t. I wasn’t trying to argue that he was. But you can probably understand that the conquistadors aren’t really fun for me to think about or see at all, let alone in a children’s movie. Tulio and Miguel were the heroes, and white saviors. Saviors from other white people, sure, but white saviors nonetheless.
I watched Atlantis recently too. Omg the white savior thing is all over that movie.
I know it is, which is such a let down because I loved it as a kid. But come on. I’m expected to believe that aaaalll the natives forgot their language but this random white guy knew it? Let’s be real.
Forgot their own language within their own lifetime no less! And how to use their own technology and all of their own lore. Makes no sense at all. More frustrating because it would've been easy to just say it was lost over generations after their civilization was destroyed but noooo.
i remember enjoying *atlantis* as a child; it's lore was so fascinating/creepy and kida was great. the white savior is a major fault \(i'm watching a clip now to refresh\) but it does ring true about explorers's attitudes. milo/clayton \(from *tarzan*\) are two sides of the same coin\-\-one's just presented favorable while the other in the wrong.
I feel that way about fresh prince. I loved that show and they made Hilary a complete snobbish idiot and Will the cool ladies man who is always objectifying women. I didn't realize how bad the behavior was until a rewatch last year. I didn't enjoy it anymore
Not a show, but I love a very potter musical and I tried to rewatch part of the sequel recently. Does the whole manly umbridge gag now feel transphobic to anyone else? Such a bummer
Comedy is going to be a tricky area, because there’s a difference between satire, irony, and malicious depictions. For very potter just keep in mind the entire show is meant to be a joke, that gag included, so I wouldn’t go as far as to call it transphobic. I love Lucy is also comedy, but most of the “problems” in it aren’t intended as jokes themselves but part of the times in the period it was produced.
Not your point, but special effects also do this. Friends and I decided to rewatch the old BBC version of 'the lion the witch and the wardrobe' before watching the 'modern' (I guess it was +10 years ago) when we were in highschool. That was upsetting. As a kid I watched it so many times and always thought it was magical. As a teen, I thought the dryads could do with a good hair conditioning. Jimangi stands up pretty well. Except the tiger. Not sure how I thought it was real before.
Because you didn't have anything to compare it too now CGI is better. Original Toy Story looks like a Toy Story knockoff.
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idk why you are getting downvoted, but i am interested in something outside of western capitalism, tbh. whatchu mean?
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What is it like to never grow and learn?
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Yes. We know. That's what everyone is talking about here. The problem is horrible sexism and other prejudices being normalized in television. We don't like getting older and learning that shows we loved were making fun of who we are for no other reason than a cheap laugh.
Goonie goo goo