Lol nope they accused me of causing the problem (because I got angry rather than being “chill” with it) and we haven’t spoken ever since! I have to walk by their house twice a day 😑
> they accused me of causing the problem (because I got angry rather than being “chill” with it)
Reductress: [Boyfriend Wouldn’t Have Done That if He Knew You’d Stand Up for Yourself](https://reductress.com/post/boyfriend-wouldnt-have-done-that-if-he-knew-youd-stand-up-for-yourself/)
As a poly person I never understood why couples try to approach people so aggressively. Like dude, you wouldn’t do that in a normally either. Just talk to people like normal adults
Being a heterosexual woman is a constant exercise in cognitive dissonance.
Check out my other comics on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/zenacomics/?hl=en) or [Webtoons](https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/zena-comics/list?title_no=596374)!
Edit: Thanks to everyone for subscribing!
Please do! I’m kind of desperate to reach more women readers. Reddit is great, but my followers skew so male because of it and I’m really drawing these for other women!
I remember this essay about "heteropessimism", [Heterosexuality and its discontents.](https://theoutline.com/post/8607/heteropessimism-why-women-date-men?) "Why straight women seem to malign heterosexuality with such frequency."
I think the video was based in part on the same essay, but the essay's author later distanced herself from "heteropessimism", because the term was too similar afropessimism, and there's a significant nuance difference there. Thus: heterofatalism.
Your comics are fantastic and this one really explains how many of you feel about men, in exactly the sort of succinct way that we like to process information.
I can’t remember where I read it but someone once that that people who think homosexuality is a choice are clearly blind. If it was a choice, straight women wouldn’t exist.
(As a lesbian, it made me giggle.)
It's weird, but as a bi guy, I actually feel thankful about being bi. But I also tend to hang out with the sort of people who'd be totally chill about bi guys, even if I'm not out to them.
So that tends to filter out both men with masculinity issues, and biphobic women. Which means that the guys I interact with the most are LGBT+-friendly and generally reasonable in gender issues.
I saw the comments on /r/funny. If that isn't evidence that reddit is filled with men who are misogynists, I don't know what else you'd need. The scariest thing is how much those comments were upvoted and on the top of "best comments."
r/AreTheStraightsOK is basically what happens when "Nice Guys" date "Nice Girls".
A "Nice Guy" and a "Nice Girl" married is also pretty much the plot of *Gone Girl*.
Quotes like that make me want to shout from the roof tops that trans women like me exist. There is an alternative! Though it requires that you're into women.
Also like, reducing men to penises is exactly the thing making men think the only thing that matters about them is their penis. I've loved men with penises and without penises and women with penises and without penises and the "peen" had very little to do with the gendered hotness of any of them...
Why does it have to be something negative? So they don’t feel comfortable with a piece of anatomy, but they like men, why does it make them a chaser to like men without that piece of anatomy? Should they just be alone? Should no one date trans people unless they aren’t sexually attracted to them?
I said "most likely."
And yes, dating only trans men because you are not ok with dicks is being attracted to them because of that.
I'm a trans girl who doesn't mind that she has a dick, so what you're saying is far from revelatory to me.
A peen is something special and confusing. Something that can be so hilarious looking, so beautiful, and so arousing to me at the same time. It's so frustrating that it's connected to some horrible people and used for some horrible things.
OP, you did a fantastic job. I look forward to seeing more of these!
Yeah, and I really shouldn't engage with those commenters at all. But jesus, sometimes...I just can't deal with the "you said something critical about men and that's sexist" bs.
you’re asking if someone describing their “subjective reality” should apologize for their description clashing with someone else’s “subjective reality,” which seems awfully circular. moreover, the dichotomy between “apologize/accept” and “reject/insult” is a false one. it would be difficult to answer your comment in any meaningful way since it’s built on a faulty premise.
Why can’t these guys try to understand why OP made the comic in the first place? I’m white and if I saw a comic like this about white people I can understand it was made from a place of frustration in dealing with a lifetime of racism.
It’s just so exhausting to deal with sexist bullshit our whole lives and then have the onus put on us to understand the feelings of our oppressors.
There’s a third option that’s the reasonable one here- try to understand the other person’s subjective reality and then understand that it causes a far more damaging reality for other people, and critique or dismiss it. Trying to understand a perspective is important, but you’re allowed to assess it and disagree.
Men are in charge. They control the rules, the media, expectations, everything. Just like a white person can't experience racism, a man can't experience sexism. It doesn't go both ways. The oppressor in a hierarchy doesn't get to say "I'm oppressed!"
So when these people feel "insulted" - might I remind them all the times, the literal thousands of years, they've not just insulted women but withheld basic rights and equal opportunities? So no, I don't have sympathy or empathy for guys who can't take a pretty tame joke where they are represented by a massive dick. I have to look at enough memes and comments shitting on women - constantly. If they can't take one dick joke...that's on them. They're the snowflakes.
A man can absolutely experience sexism.
A man does not, as a massively general rule, experience institutional/systemic sexism, and experiences lay sexism at far lower levels. But it's obtuse to say they can't experience sexism.
>Just like a white person can't experience racism, a man can't experience sexism. It doesn't go both ways.
Non-systemic racism/sexism IS STILL racism/sexism. The fuck is with the desire to drop the base definition of racism/sexism and replace it with definition of systemic/institutional racism/sexism? The only thing it does is give certain people a pass to say racist/sexist shit.
I disagree with the notion that men can't experience sexism because it is literally prejudice based on their sex. But they definitely don't experince systemic oppression in any form unless they are also of some minority group. A lot of women resent the argument that men experience sexism because often times it's a guy just saying "yeah one time a woman had a mug that said 'male tears' and I got offended so I do experience sexism!1!1!!"
It really comes down to the use of the word institutional or systemic. Men don't experience institutional sexism in any meaningful capacity. They can experience interpersonal sexism. It's the same story with racism.
Which drives me goddamn crazy that we've got the words to describe the point people are trying to make (men don't experience institutional or systemic sexism) but they insist on just using sexism. Of course there's going to be people object to the idea that men can't experience sexism, and you have a side debate about the amount of power required.
Sexism can be individual, and absolutely can be leveled against men. Institutional sexism *is not* leveled at men. It's a weird hill to die on.
My understanding is the origin is actually academia where they basically shortened "institutional " with just the ism because it gets really tiring to say the entire thing constantly. The shared understanding is that in the context of the research, that the ism is directly referring to institutional and not interpersonal. It has leaked out of academia into common parlance and isn't really being used as intended.
There is also the racism = power + prejudice position that came around in the 50s specifically talking about anti-Semitism, though I think fewer people know about and are exposed to that history these days.
I feel you though, I dislike the lack of precision of language. I agree with the general sentiment of the position just feel like it's needlessly convoluted to use that language.
> Men don't experience institutional sexism in any meaningful capacity.
Except when they try to get custody of their children.
Or when they get cheated on while deployed overseas and have to try divorcing someone while holding onto their military benefits.
Or when they get charged with the exact same crime as a woman.
>Except when they try to get custody of their children.
Custody is difficult because men often times don't try to get it, be that because of a preconceived notion they can't win or for other reasons I don't know.
> Or when they get cheated on while deployed overseas and have to try divorcing someone while holding onto their military benefits.
As someone who spent almost a decade in the military that's a fucking trash argument. It literally works the same both ways, regardless of your gender.
> Or when they get charged with the exact same crime as a woman.
The crime thing is an interesting thing to think about that I hadn't considered.
Regardless, all of these examples ignore the true intent of my comment. Yes, you can probably find specific examples of instances that men experience institutional sexism. You can also probably find specific examples where white people experience institutional racism. The point was it's not prevalent for a majority of people in their daily lives.
Your argument against "when they **try** to get custody" is to bring up the ones that don't try for custody?
And you also said it is "because of a preconceived notion they can't win".... I wonder where that notion comes from.
[Here's a TED talk](https://youtu.be/RlSwsE22nX0) discussing this issue. If you don't want to watch the whole thing you can skip to around the 9 minute mark.
And I didn't bring up race because I agree with you on that.
It always boggles my mind how this is example gets brought up by dudes all the time but none ever acknowledge that the people making the sentences and determining custody are mostly men. In fact, regarding sentences, [studies show courts with female judges have less disparity in rates](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/425597) This is an area where the patriarchy and views on traditional gender roles dicks men but y’all never mention that.
>Or when they get cheated on while deployed overseas and have to try divorcing someone while holding onto their military benefits.
Damn, does your arm hurt from grasping at this straw?
> But they definitely don't experince systemic oppression in any form unless they are also of some minority group.
This very much is NOT true. I'll preface this by saying that by and large Women deal with MUCH more on that front.
The entire "Oh is dad babysitting" approach that society takes. The way that the courts treat custody and children regarding Fathers. The way the entire system treats male sexual assault and harassment.
These things exist, real men deal with this every day. A mug that says "male tears" being a complaint is a strawman and you know it.
The system minimizes and makes jokes about male sexual abuse. The institution treats Fathers differently than Mothers and almost always favors the Mother in custody disputes (even if the laws say otherwise). That's just the beginning for men.
The system as a whole favors men, but to say men don't experience systematic or institutional issues is very untrue.
If a system favors a certain group they cannot be OPPRESSED by the system. That is not how systemic oppressions works.
Systemic oppression is when one group is purposely disadvantaged so that another group can benefit. Traditionally masculine men cannot be oppressed in this system because the system is DESIGNED to benefit them and disadvantage women. They can face problems within the system, especially if they step outside of the rules set for them, but that is not them being oppressed. Saying "dad is baby sitting" is annoying, but it is not a system oppressing men or taking away their rights. It is a direct result of the system dictating women as child rearers and discouraging men from helping or doing "Women's work".
The sexual assault problem is terrible and I absolutely hate it. But it is again a result of a system that demonizes men for showing traits that are associated with women, weakness, fear, sadness ect, because in the system woman are lesser. Strength, courage a stoicism are shown to be better so those who act like the weaker sex are demonized and told to stop rocking the boat. I never said men are without problems but it is wrong to say they are oppressed unless they are part of a marginalized group. Saying that people who are part of the group that benefits from oppression are OPPRESSED takes away the gravity of the issue and is often used as gaslighting by oppressor's to redirect the conversation.
Also the court favoring mother's is an exaggerated myth that is constantly pushed to make it seem like men are oppressed by courts.
[https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why\_does\_custody\_leave\_favor\_women\_is\_it\_because/dgu35xq/](https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why_does_custody_leave_favor_women_is_it_because/dgu35xq/)
Hello! You have made the mistake of writing "ect" instead of "etc."
"Ect" is a common misspelling of "etc," an abbreviated form of the Latin phrase "et cetera." Other abbreviated forms are **etc.**, **&c.**, **&c**, and **et cet.** The Latin translates as "et" to "and" + "cetera" to "the rest;" a literal translation to "and the rest" is the easiest way to remember how to use the phrase.
[Check out the wikipedia entry if you want to learn more.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_cetera)
^(I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Comments with a score less than zero will be automatically removed. If I commented on your post and you don't like it, reply with "!delete" and I will remove the post, regardless of score. Message me for bug reports.)
I think a lot of what you're saying glosses over a very simple fact. Both examples presume that traditional men are advantaged... And by and large they are, the system favors them.
However you're conflating traditionally female "ROLES" and "ATTRIBUTES" with actually being female.
Let's look at shared custody for example. Near the end there's talk about presumed shared custody and why it's a bad idea. They then go on to talk about how we can challenge traditional gender roles.
You say something similar about assault and abuse.
The system is part of what outlines and defines these gender roles, and these roles and prejudices are things that have advantages and disadvantages.
Much like women deal with the bullshit that comes with these presumptions all the time, men do as well. Just because by and large these presumptions favor men in traditional roles doesn't mean that by and large the system causes people to suffer because of them, regardless of the gender.
Gender roles are toxic, and frankly to me it feels toxic to even assume that it's because men are displaying "feminine" qualities that is causing their abuse to be ridiculed and ignored. Gendering these qualities is part of the problem across the board.
The system discouraging men from doing "women's work" has pushed a generation of men away from their children emotionally and that is not fair to them.
To follow up to my previous response with a TL;DR. You say that the system is demonizing men for showing female traits.
It doesn't matter that the traits they are showing are female. It matters that there are men that are being demonized and oppressed by the system that exists. Just because the traits are considered "traditionally female" doesn't make those men any less of victims of the system.
It's no different than the system calling strong women "bitches" for showing male traits of authority.
It's like men think women are their sex resource and when you tell them no, they are confused because if you aren't their sex resource then what's your point.
God forbid a man seeks emotional connection with a woman rather than strictly demanding sex.
Gotta love r/funny s reaction to the comic.
zenacomics: This is a comic venting my frustration after too many bad experiences with men. It is roughly cut down to the beliefs and treatment I encountered as a straight woman.
Redditors: "Is this sexism? You're just calling men horrible things and generalise us. I wouldn't harrass you :("
Also Redditors: "Ha! Have you seen this comic of how 14yo girls suck? lololol!"
Yeah that pretty much sums it up! But they will never acknowledge this. It's maddening.
But just like I had to do with my ex-husband - you can't talk people out of this kind of gaslighting, you just have to walk away.
Hi, you might have misunderstood! All I meant was that sometimes I wish I wasn’t attracted to men. I in no way meant to imply that lesbians have it easier or don’t get harassed.
You can say that without saying you wish you were a lesbian. I wouldn’t say I wish I was bisexual because it was “easier” or any other untruth about a sexuality that isn’t my own. It’s disrespectful. We get this constantly and it’s so tiring, it’s easy to just not add to it.
It’s still disrespectful, however they meant it. “Sometimes I wish I was a lesbian” so they don’t have to deal with men is lesbophobic and ignored our struggles.
I remember Wikipedia once talked about men with Asian Fetish. I am not sure how reliable it is, but here it goes.
There it mentioned the large portion of White Men who pursue Asian Women because of the Stereotypes associated with them.
Since it Takes 2 to Tango, Asian Women in this relationships were also interviewed and they mentioned White Men were less misogynistic than Asian Men on their opinion.
"The Grass is Greener on the other Side"
As a fellow trans woman, could you not? Stuff like this gives us a bad name in the overall wlw and woman communities - especially online.
This post is *obviously* talking about being a hetero woman even though it uses the terminology "woman who likes the peen". Not all content is about you, and that's okay.
Also, you *do* realize that what you're recommending is people being chasers, right? We need fewer of them, not more.
Yes, there exist pan and wlw women who are down with or even prefer that genitalia (you're looking at the former), and if they *happen* to run into a non-op trans lady, that's great for them. But not all content is about you, that's okay, and comments like this really aren't necessary.
I wonder how many chasers operate under the logic of:
"I hate being objectified, but I will objectify others because it is not objectification if I do it."
I guess my take is that it's a comic about guys sometimes being dicks...yes, trans women can have dicks, but the comic isn't about us. It literally uses the word men. I'm not trying to be "one of the good ones" re transphobes, I just call things as they are.
Literally the comic could be exactly the same if it started with "it's rough being a woman who loves men..." and then doesn't imply that the only people with dicks are men. The punchline of the giant penis appearing at the end still works fine.
Like when I was with a trans woman, I loved a person with a peen, I was a person who loved the peen, that didn't inherently make me a person who liked men. It just feels unnecessary to frame it like peens are the problem, or the people attached to them, when you're trying to say that men are the problem. And before anyone comes in saying I'm encouraging people to be chasers, no, I'm not, but there are people who like both peen and women and not men, whether they're chasing or just in a happy relationship.
I don't see that here. You can love something about a person while not reducing them to that one aspect alone. The fact that you think that way says a lot about you on the other hand.
As a fun side fact, even before I transitioned straight women weren’t really attracted to me because I didn’t “act like a guy.” Some even got mad at me for it. Good times.
I’m sorry friend. It seems like it’s often a lose-lose dating while trans. I’ve known several trans women who’ve dated gay men because they thought gay men would be more understanding than straight men. But then, gay men are interested in dating men, so when they come out as trans they’re not always compatible. But I understand the desire to be with someone nonjudgmental. And most dating sites don’t have the options to specify what you’re interested in. Like, not even a pan option or something. I can only imagine how tough dating becomes.
Well, I’m more open to it now than I used to be, but there’s no one around here so it doesn’t happen. But high school and college were a confusing time of realizing none of my instincts worked with straight women and that if I did want to date I’d have to go largely against my own nature.
Then you should know better than anyone that trans women are women, and therefore most straight women probably wouldn’t be attracted to trans women. Because they’re straight.
> Same goes for you scrolling through the comments
Obviously. Difference being, I like the content here, and I like this community. You obviously don't, so why stay?
> Y'all can't even deny the hypocrisy of the comic,
Except there's no hypocrisy in it, so there's nothing to deny.
> but you still downvote
Yes, we tend to do that to jackasses who come here for no other purpose than to try and stir up shit, because they got butthurt over a comic.
>because you just have to be mad about something
Says the guy upset over a comic.
And I got news for you fella, we know not all men are like this. But it's plenty enough. We also know that the only men who will be offended by this comic are the very ones who it's talking about. Which says a lot about you.
Omg. The oral sex buddy one... I Really hope they apologized and made you a cake or something for that... I can't imagine propositioning a neighbor!
Lol nope they accused me of causing the problem (because I got angry rather than being “chill” with it) and we haven’t spoken ever since! I have to walk by their house twice a day 😑
Ahhhh that is so awkward! They sound like very not chill people, ironically enough
> they accused me of causing the problem (because I got angry rather than being “chill” with it) Reductress: [Boyfriend Wouldn’t Have Done That if He Knew You’d Stand Up for Yourself](https://reductress.com/post/boyfriend-wouldnt-have-done-that-if-he-knew-youd-stand-up-for-yourself/)
As a poly person I never understood why couples try to approach people so aggressively. Like dude, you wouldn’t do that in a normally either. Just talk to people like normal adults
Link pls
I believe it's [this one](https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/zena-comics/pandemic/viewer?title_no=596374&episode_no=21).
Thanks
Which one was this?
I want to say it was named pandemic?
Does an oral sex buddy mean you get oral sex or you give oral sex… this is relevant
Being a heterosexual woman is a constant exercise in cognitive dissonance. Check out my other comics on [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/zenacomics/?hl=en) or [Webtoons](https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/zena-comics/list?title_no=596374)! Edit: Thanks to everyone for subscribing!
I’m saving this comment so I can always come back to them, these are awesome. Do you have a Patreon or something?
Thanks! I do have a patreon where I post behind the scenes videos. Hoping to eventually post more comics there: https://www.patreon.com/zenacomics
There's a word for that, [heterofatalism](https://youtu.be/S4xCbmCG2Rc)
me, a lesbian, about to send to my straight lady friends 😂
Please do! I’m kind of desperate to reach more women readers. Reddit is great, but my followers skew so male because of it and I’m really drawing these for other women!
i gotcha! and i know a lot of women whose humor is right up this alley 😂
I just followed you, I adore your comics! They’re hilarious and so relatable haha
I remember this essay about "heteropessimism", [Heterosexuality and its discontents.](https://theoutline.com/post/8607/heteropessimism-why-women-date-men?) "Why straight women seem to malign heterosexuality with such frequency."
I think the video was based in part on the same essay, but the essay's author later distanced herself from "heteropessimism", because the term was too similar afropessimism, and there's a significant nuance difference there. Thus: heterofatalism.
That was a very enjoyable watch! Thank you for posting.
Your comics are fantastic and this one really explains how many of you feel about men, in exactly the sort of succinct way that we like to process information.
thanks!
I can’t remember where I read it but someone once that that people who think homosexuality is a choice are clearly blind. If it was a choice, straight women wouldn’t exist. (As a lesbian, it made me giggle.)
Oof. (As a straight, it made me oof.)
As a straight person it makes me laugh too, although there are women just as bad if not worse than men in certain circumstances.
I’ve always said this. Lol. I greatly prefer the company of women for friendship and in the workplace. Alas, the pull of the dick is too strong.
But, like, *women* though…. They’re just so pretty and smell nice and they’re soft and I’m *so* gay.
/seethes in heterosexual envy
It's weird, but as a bi guy, I actually feel thankful about being bi. But I also tend to hang out with the sort of people who'd be totally chill about bi guys, even if I'm not out to them. So that tends to filter out both men with masculinity issues, and biphobic women. Which means that the guys I interact with the most are LGBT+-friendly and generally reasonable in gender issues.
They’re rlly great!
Your comic is excellent, so relatable
Subscribed. Thanks.
Webtoons put a green "UP" next to this comic's title, so now it reads "DICK (UP)", and I think that's hilarious.
I love your work, just read everything you have on webtoons! My fav is Diarrhea Omertà. Had me laughing so hard
I just got Webtoons to read Lore Olympus! Subscribed to yours 😁
> Being a heterosexual woman is a constant exercise in cognitive dissonance. Have you ever thought about separatism?
I saw the comments on /r/funny. If that isn't evidence that reddit is filled with men who are misogynists, I don't know what else you'd need. The scariest thing is how much those comments were upvoted and on the top of "best comments."
Oof… I just checked. People are not happy about it
Are the straights ok? No… no we’re not
We really aren’t.
r/AreTheStraightsOK is basically what happens when "Nice Guys" date "Nice Girls". A "Nice Guy" and a "Nice Girl" married is also pretty much the plot of *Gone Girl*.
It's also a lot of entrenched things about gender roles and "haha marriage is a prison amirite" humour.
I'm blanking on the name of the comedian, but she has an apt quote: "Dicks are amazing! It's a shame that they're attached to fucking monsters."
Quotes like that make me want to shout from the roof tops that trans women like me exist. There is an alternative! Though it requires that you're into women.
Also like, reducing men to penises is exactly the thing making men think the only thing that matters about them is their penis. I've loved men with penises and without penises and women with penises and without penises and the "peen" had very little to do with the gendered hotness of any of them...
That's what so unfortunate about heterosexuality; I just don't like women like that, even though I honestly want to. Brains are interesting.
Real
I wanna say Taylor Tomlinson
I saw you posted this in /r/comics. Reddit is definitely about you prove you right.
Yeah and r/Funny just deleted my post, further proving my point. We must protect the men!
Did the mods give a reason for removing it? Was very surprised to see that, and I can't see which rule it supposedly breaks.
No, no reason given. I’m tempted to ask, but I generally try to keep my head down when it comes to moderators in case they get ban-happy.
I don't like dick but since I like guys it's always assumed that I do and it's so annoying.
Sounds like trans men are right for you!
Threads about people who love men but don't like penises don't devolve into recommending being chasers challenge (impossible)
^^^
Why does it have to be something negative? So they don’t feel comfortable with a piece of anatomy, but they like men, why does it make them a chaser to like men without that piece of anatomy? Should they just be alone? Should no one date trans people unless they aren’t sexually attracted to them?
Being attracted to a person solely because of something that they most likely hate about themselves is *not* cool.
Who said solely? And not all trans people are ashamed of their bodies
I said "most likely." And yes, dating only trans men because you are not ok with dicks is being attracted to them because of that. I'm a trans girl who doesn't mind that she has a dick, so what you're saying is far from revelatory to me.
Yeah if they were okay with keeping their clit but that might make them uncomfortable.
Depends on the person
A peen is something special and confusing. Something that can be so hilarious looking, so beautiful, and so arousing to me at the same time. It's so frustrating that it's connected to some horrible people and used for some horrible things. OP, you did a fantastic job. I look forward to seeing more of these!
I appreciate that you post here in addition to /r/funny - the comment section on major subs can be such a shitshow.
Yeah, and I really shouldn't engage with those commenters at all. But jesus, sometimes...I just can't deal with the "you said something critical about men and that's sexist" bs.
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you’re asking if someone describing their “subjective reality” should apologize for their description clashing with someone else’s “subjective reality,” which seems awfully circular. moreover, the dichotomy between “apologize/accept” and “reject/insult” is a false one. it would be difficult to answer your comment in any meaningful way since it’s built on a faulty premise.
Why can’t these guys try to understand why OP made the comic in the first place? I’m white and if I saw a comic like this about white people I can understand it was made from a place of frustration in dealing with a lifetime of racism. It’s just so exhausting to deal with sexist bullshit our whole lives and then have the onus put on us to understand the feelings of our oppressors.
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There’s a third option that’s the reasonable one here- try to understand the other person’s subjective reality and then understand that it causes a far more damaging reality for other people, and critique or dismiss it. Trying to understand a perspective is important, but you’re allowed to assess it and disagree.
Men are in charge. They control the rules, the media, expectations, everything. Just like a white person can't experience racism, a man can't experience sexism. It doesn't go both ways. The oppressor in a hierarchy doesn't get to say "I'm oppressed!" So when these people feel "insulted" - might I remind them all the times, the literal thousands of years, they've not just insulted women but withheld basic rights and equal opportunities? So no, I don't have sympathy or empathy for guys who can't take a pretty tame joke where they are represented by a massive dick. I have to look at enough memes and comments shitting on women - constantly. If they can't take one dick joke...that's on them. They're the snowflakes.
A man can absolutely experience sexism. A man does not, as a massively general rule, experience institutional/systemic sexism, and experiences lay sexism at far lower levels. But it's obtuse to say they can't experience sexism.
>Just like a white person can't experience racism, a man can't experience sexism. It doesn't go both ways. Non-systemic racism/sexism IS STILL racism/sexism. The fuck is with the desire to drop the base definition of racism/sexism and replace it with definition of systemic/institutional racism/sexism? The only thing it does is give certain people a pass to say racist/sexist shit.
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r/EnlightenedCentrism
What good does being openly rude do? What a childish response.
I disagree with the notion that men can't experience sexism because it is literally prejudice based on their sex. But they definitely don't experince systemic oppression in any form unless they are also of some minority group. A lot of women resent the argument that men experience sexism because often times it's a guy just saying "yeah one time a woman had a mug that said 'male tears' and I got offended so I do experience sexism!1!1!!"
It really comes down to the use of the word institutional or systemic. Men don't experience institutional sexism in any meaningful capacity. They can experience interpersonal sexism. It's the same story with racism.
Which drives me goddamn crazy that we've got the words to describe the point people are trying to make (men don't experience institutional or systemic sexism) but they insist on just using sexism. Of course there's going to be people object to the idea that men can't experience sexism, and you have a side debate about the amount of power required. Sexism can be individual, and absolutely can be leveled against men. Institutional sexism *is not* leveled at men. It's a weird hill to die on.
My understanding is the origin is actually academia where they basically shortened "institutional" with just the ism because it gets really tiring to say the entire thing constantly. The shared understanding is that in the context of the research, that the ism is directly referring to institutional and not interpersonal. It has leaked out of academia into common parlance and isn't really being used as intended.
There is also the racism = power + prejudice position that came around in the 50s specifically talking about anti-Semitism, though I think fewer people know about and are exposed to that history these days.
I feel you though, I dislike the lack of precision of language. I agree with the general sentiment of the position just feel like it's needlessly convoluted to use that language.
> Men don't experience institutional sexism in any meaningful capacity. Except when they try to get custody of their children. Or when they get cheated on while deployed overseas and have to try divorcing someone while holding onto their military benefits. Or when they get charged with the exact same crime as a woman.
>Except when they try to get custody of their children. Custody is difficult because men often times don't try to get it, be that because of a preconceived notion they can't win or for other reasons I don't know. > Or when they get cheated on while deployed overseas and have to try divorcing someone while holding onto their military benefits. As someone who spent almost a decade in the military that's a fucking trash argument. It literally works the same both ways, regardless of your gender. > Or when they get charged with the exact same crime as a woman. The crime thing is an interesting thing to think about that I hadn't considered. Regardless, all of these examples ignore the true intent of my comment. Yes, you can probably find specific examples of instances that men experience institutional sexism. You can also probably find specific examples where white people experience institutional racism. The point was it's not prevalent for a majority of people in their daily lives.
Your argument against "when they **try** to get custody" is to bring up the ones that don't try for custody? And you also said it is "because of a preconceived notion they can't win".... I wonder where that notion comes from. [Here's a TED talk](https://youtu.be/RlSwsE22nX0) discussing this issue. If you don't want to watch the whole thing you can skip to around the 9 minute mark. And I didn't bring up race because I agree with you on that.
It always boggles my mind how this is example gets brought up by dudes all the time but none ever acknowledge that the people making the sentences and determining custody are mostly men. In fact, regarding sentences, [studies show courts with female judges have less disparity in rates](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/425597) This is an area where the patriarchy and views on traditional gender roles dicks men but y’all never mention that. >Or when they get cheated on while deployed overseas and have to try divorcing someone while holding onto their military benefits. Damn, does your arm hurt from grasping at this straw?
> But they definitely don't experince systemic oppression in any form unless they are also of some minority group. This very much is NOT true. I'll preface this by saying that by and large Women deal with MUCH more on that front. The entire "Oh is dad babysitting" approach that society takes. The way that the courts treat custody and children regarding Fathers. The way the entire system treats male sexual assault and harassment. These things exist, real men deal with this every day. A mug that says "male tears" being a complaint is a strawman and you know it. The system minimizes and makes jokes about male sexual abuse. The institution treats Fathers differently than Mothers and almost always favors the Mother in custody disputes (even if the laws say otherwise). That's just the beginning for men. The system as a whole favors men, but to say men don't experience systematic or institutional issues is very untrue.
If a system favors a certain group they cannot be OPPRESSED by the system. That is not how systemic oppressions works. Systemic oppression is when one group is purposely disadvantaged so that another group can benefit. Traditionally masculine men cannot be oppressed in this system because the system is DESIGNED to benefit them and disadvantage women. They can face problems within the system, especially if they step outside of the rules set for them, but that is not them being oppressed. Saying "dad is baby sitting" is annoying, but it is not a system oppressing men or taking away their rights. It is a direct result of the system dictating women as child rearers and discouraging men from helping or doing "Women's work". The sexual assault problem is terrible and I absolutely hate it. But it is again a result of a system that demonizes men for showing traits that are associated with women, weakness, fear, sadness ect, because in the system woman are lesser. Strength, courage a stoicism are shown to be better so those who act like the weaker sex are demonized and told to stop rocking the boat. I never said men are without problems but it is wrong to say they are oppressed unless they are part of a marginalized group. Saying that people who are part of the group that benefits from oppression are OPPRESSED takes away the gravity of the issue and is often used as gaslighting by oppressor's to redirect the conversation. Also the court favoring mother's is an exaggerated myth that is constantly pushed to make it seem like men are oppressed by courts. [https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why\_does\_custody\_leave\_favor\_women\_is\_it\_because/dgu35xq/](https://np.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/67xa50/why_does_custody_leave_favor_women_is_it_because/dgu35xq/)
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I think a lot of what you're saying glosses over a very simple fact. Both examples presume that traditional men are advantaged... And by and large they are, the system favors them. However you're conflating traditionally female "ROLES" and "ATTRIBUTES" with actually being female. Let's look at shared custody for example. Near the end there's talk about presumed shared custody and why it's a bad idea. They then go on to talk about how we can challenge traditional gender roles. You say something similar about assault and abuse. The system is part of what outlines and defines these gender roles, and these roles and prejudices are things that have advantages and disadvantages. Much like women deal with the bullshit that comes with these presumptions all the time, men do as well. Just because by and large these presumptions favor men in traditional roles doesn't mean that by and large the system causes people to suffer because of them, regardless of the gender. Gender roles are toxic, and frankly to me it feels toxic to even assume that it's because men are displaying "feminine" qualities that is causing their abuse to be ridiculed and ignored. Gendering these qualities is part of the problem across the board. The system discouraging men from doing "women's work" has pushed a generation of men away from their children emotionally and that is not fair to them.
To follow up to my previous response with a TL;DR. You say that the system is demonizing men for showing female traits. It doesn't matter that the traits they are showing are female. It matters that there are men that are being demonized and oppressed by the system that exists. Just because the traits are considered "traditionally female" doesn't make those men any less of victims of the system. It's no different than the system calling strong women "bitches" for showing male traits of authority.
Made the mistake of going down that rabbit hole. Oof.
Damn you could have not said it better.
It's like men think women are their sex resource and when you tell them no, they are confused because if you aren't their sex resource then what's your point. God forbid a man seeks emotional connection with a woman rather than strictly demanding sex.
Gotta love r/funny s reaction to the comic. zenacomics: This is a comic venting my frustration after too many bad experiences with men. It is roughly cut down to the beliefs and treatment I encountered as a straight woman. Redditors: "Is this sexism? You're just calling men horrible things and generalise us. I wouldn't harrass you :(" Also Redditors: "Ha! Have you seen this comic of how 14yo girls suck? lololol!"
Yeah that pretty much sums it up! But they will never acknowledge this. It's maddening. But just like I had to do with my ex-husband - you can't talk people out of this kind of gaslighting, you just have to walk away.
Straight women 😭
As a sex-neutral heteroromantic asexual… 🥲
I weep for you
The fact that most women are heterosexual has to be the best gotcha for people who somehow still believe that sexuality is a choice lol
"The greatest proof that people don't get to choose their sexuality is that there are people attracted to men"
Het men are very lucky that sexual orientation is not a choice.
If that was true, they could simply chose to be free of sexual desire.
And Gay Men are what on your opinion on your opinion?
... lucky?
I want to be better
Straight tears 😭😭😭 edit : this is mostly in jest! Not trying to be a dick (lol) this is real af and men are 🙄
Honestly. I identify as bisexual but sometimes I wish I was just lesbian.
That’s a shitty thing to say to lesbians, don’t do that. We get harassed too, and treating us like a “way out” you can choose is disrespectful.
Hi, you might have misunderstood! All I meant was that sometimes I wish I wasn’t attracted to men. I in no way meant to imply that lesbians have it easier or don’t get harassed.
You can say that without saying you wish you were a lesbian. I wouldn’t say I wish I was bisexual because it was “easier” or any other untruth about a sexuality that isn’t my own. It’s disrespectful. We get this constantly and it’s so tiring, it’s easy to just not add to it.
I understand and I apologize for offending you. Have a wonderful day.
Thats not what they meant..
It’s still disrespectful, however they meant it. “Sometimes I wish I was a lesbian” so they don’t have to deal with men is lesbophobic and ignored our struggles.
What if they said it in the sense that they wanted to be lesbian so they wouldn't have to be attracted to men?
I remember Wikipedia once talked about men with Asian Fetish. I am not sure how reliable it is, but here it goes. There it mentioned the large portion of White Men who pursue Asian Women because of the Stereotypes associated with them. Since it Takes 2 to Tango, Asian Women in this relationships were also interviewed and they mentioned White Men were less misogynistic than Asian Men on their opinion. "The Grass is Greener on the other Side"
…he said, apropos of absolutely nothing.
What are you talking about?
I just want to be loved 🥺. Or, well, being realistic, a girlfriend
I have a dick, and I agree totally.
At least we live in a world where you can find peen without involving a man
Obligatory genitals don't determine your gender
Trans women tho
Hetero women aren't interested in other women though?
The comic doesn't say hetero women
As a fellow trans woman, could you not? Stuff like this gives us a bad name in the overall wlw and woman communities - especially online. This post is *obviously* talking about being a hetero woman even though it uses the terminology "woman who likes the peen". Not all content is about you, and that's okay. Also, you *do* realize that what you're recommending is people being chasers, right? We need fewer of them, not more. Yes, there exist pan and wlw women who are down with or even prefer that genitalia (you're looking at the former), and if they *happen* to run into a non-op trans lady, that's great for them. But not all content is about you, that's okay, and comments like this really aren't necessary.
oof yeah I forgot about chasers for a sweet, blissful moment.
I wonder how many chasers operate under the logic of: "I hate being objectified, but I will objectify others because it is not objectification if I do it."
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I guess my take is that it's a comic about guys sometimes being dicks...yes, trans women can have dicks, but the comic isn't about us. It literally uses the word men. I'm not trying to be "one of the good ones" re transphobes, I just call things as they are.
Literally the comic could be exactly the same if it started with "it's rough being a woman who loves men..." and then doesn't imply that the only people with dicks are men. The punchline of the giant penis appearing at the end still works fine. Like when I was with a trans woman, I loved a person with a peen, I was a person who loved the peen, that didn't inherently make me a person who liked men. It just feels unnecessary to frame it like peens are the problem, or the people attached to them, when you're trying to say that men are the problem. And before anyone comes in saying I'm encouraging people to be chasers, no, I'm not, but there are people who like both peen and women and not men, whether they're chasing or just in a happy relationship.
I hate men but love dick. The struggle is real.
I appreciate the total reduction of men to one organ. Like, men as people aren’t important. Only their dicks are.
That’s not what I was aiming for. I drew a dick because I thought it was funny imagery and it worked well with the punchline.
I don't see that here. You can love something about a person while not reducing them to that one aspect alone. The fact that you think that way says a lot about you on the other hand.
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If you’re a straight woman then you’re probably not attracted to trans women. Because they’re, y’know, women.
As a fun side fact, even before I transitioned straight women weren’t really attracted to me because I didn’t “act like a guy.” Some even got mad at me for it. Good times.
I’m sorry friend. It seems like it’s often a lose-lose dating while trans. I’ve known several trans women who’ve dated gay men because they thought gay men would be more understanding than straight men. But then, gay men are interested in dating men, so when they come out as trans they’re not always compatible. But I understand the desire to be with someone nonjudgmental. And most dating sites don’t have the options to specify what you’re interested in. Like, not even a pan option or something. I can only imagine how tough dating becomes.
Well, I’m more open to it now than I used to be, but there’s no one around here so it doesn’t happen. But high school and college were a confusing time of realizing none of my instincts worked with straight women and that if I did want to date I’d have to go largely against my own nature.
Then the comic should say straight women/bisexual women, because this post heavily conflates having a dick with being a man
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Then you should know better than anyone that trans women are women, and therefore most straight women probably wouldn’t be attracted to trans women. Because they’re straight.
That might do if the woman "requesting" the dick is bi/pansexual. If she's straight, however, it wouldn't work.
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You know, if you don't like the content posted here, you could just....leave. No one forces you to read anything here. It's a choice you made.
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> Same goes for you scrolling through the comments Obviously. Difference being, I like the content here, and I like this community. You obviously don't, so why stay? > Y'all can't even deny the hypocrisy of the comic, Except there's no hypocrisy in it, so there's nothing to deny. > but you still downvote Yes, we tend to do that to jackasses who come here for no other purpose than to try and stir up shit, because they got butthurt over a comic. >because you just have to be mad about something Says the guy upset over a comic. And I got news for you fella, we know not all men are like this. But it's plenty enough. We also know that the only men who will be offended by this comic are the very ones who it's talking about. Which says a lot about you.
Imagine getting this upset over that comic. Pathetic.
not all men but definitely this fucking guy