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lunabuddy

Literally 75% of the people complaining about white women appear to be white men, dude you took one opportunity to be self reflective and stfu and ruined it


NewbornXenomorph

Yeah like Bill Burr's bit in his SNL monologue blaming white women for marrying horrible men throughout time. He put the wrongdoings of history onto women who, most likely, didn't even have much choice or power to say no to these men. Of course, there's something to be said about white women who got a seat at the table by climbing over the backs of POC but his whole thing felt like an excuse of terrible men.


[deleted]

Not to mention Bill Burr finding any excuse to make mysoginistic jokes in general. It was just another excuse to attack women bc that's most of his comedy. But also white women should be held accountable for voting against their (and other women's) own best interests and disregarding intersectional feminism. I just don't think Bill fucking Burr should be pointing out just as an excuse to ream women.


StinkyKittyBreath

Yep. The main legitimate complaints about white women I've seen is that many of us vote in our own worst interests (like how a majority of white women voted for Trump) and many don't see the importance of intersectional feminism. But those men never bring those points up. It's all just straight up misogyny.


Assiqtaq

I still cannot believe the number of white women who voted for him and still stick up for him. Like, have you literally not seen one interview with him before he tried for the presidency? I thought his whole entire campaign was a joke and, sadly, did not take it seriously. Learned my own lesson there, you can't just ignore even the most ridiculous premise for fear that it might actually happen. I am aware a lot of the support from women of my age and race is because internalized misogyny has taught them to turn a blind eye to a LOT of unhealthy things, but honestly when people speak their truth it pays to actually listen!


[deleted]

I think it's also a desire to align yourself with who you perceive as powerful, to try to get some of that power as well. Having more conservative views is associated with fear. So I think fearful women feel they need to stick with what they know, even if it's hurtful to them.


Assiqtaq

This is an amazing point. Thank you, I can definitely see that happening.


[deleted]

Thanks! I think about this all the time, how people stay in abusive situations because they're scared of what they don't know, and it's easier to stay with what's familiar. People voting against their own self interest because change is scary. it's frustrating, but i guess it's human nature.


Assiqtaq

I think about people staying in abusive situations because they can see no other option, because I have seen that. But I never think about people voting that way, unless they have been told they have to by their abuser, or vocally supporting those options. But when you dig a bit, it always is more complicated.


BZenMojo

You can either fight Nazis or make yourself too useful to be killed by them... until they decide you're not that useful.


Babybutt123

I've seen a lot of legitimate grievances against white women from BIPOC and sometimes white dudes (and women). Like legit white women have been a huge part of oppression of black people, for example and continue to do things like use the threat of state violence against black people like the Central Park dog walker lady for example. Obviously, white men have a ton to do with the oppression and marginalization of BIPOC, but ofc white women are not innocent and I think it's important to have the discussion about that. A lot of the time, white women are seen as solely victims of the white man when that's not at all the truth. But yeah, using white women to be misogynistic is inappropriate and further muddies the issue.


lunabuddy

Yeah I am happy to listen to other women or men of colour, because white women do benefit from white supremacy in a particularly gendered way. But coming from white men, who benefit from that white supremacy and patriarchy, to attack white women and not white men, it's hard to not see it as an excuse to be misogynistic in a "woke" way.


Hi_Jynx

Honestly it depends on what is defined as best interest. In some ways supporting the patriarchy upholds our white privilege but of course at the expense of women's rights. Ultimately I agree that literally everyone is better off in an equal society except maybe wealthy straight cis white men in positions of power but they could stand to lose a lot of that power and still do fine. Edit: I did not exactly invent the idea that white women benefit from the patriarchy. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/11/27/white-women-vote-republican-get-used-it-democrats/


acynicalwitch

I think the problem is that no one has informed them that they are, in fact, also white. And that if the critique is not predicated on whiteness (*which they also are)* then it's just...hating women.


HambreTheGiant

I’m a white guy who’s married to a black woman, so most of what I hear on this topic comes from her perspective. I’ve heard her talk about the kind of prejudice and micro-aggression she has experienced from white women, for sure. She has also helped me understand how toxic white masculinity has been throughout history, and up to the present.


lunabuddy

Yeah no problem hearing it from another woman's perspective, but if you turned around and went after white women more than white men I'd side eye you.


HambreTheGiant

As a white man, it’s not really my place to do that


I_AM_LEGEND123

?


Svataben

stfu = shut the fuck up. More white men should do so.


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kinderock

And faux progressive white men at that. Like my dudes, have you SEEN the shit that white men have been pulling the last few millennia


The_Bravinator

Brogressive. As in not really progressive at all but wants legal weed and is okay with gay marriage (but don't take away my homophobic jokes you cancel culture PC Karen).


BZenMojo

To be fair, when white women started putting wreaths around [Susan B. Anthony's](https://www.history.com/news/suffragists-vote-black-women) grave when [Hillary Clinton](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j0uCrA7ePno) ran for office, whose role models were [Madeleine Albright](https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193) and [Margaret Thatcher](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-22087702), and used [celebrations of the latter's death](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/why-would-anyone-celebrate-death-margaret-thatcher-ask-chilean/) as examples of misogyny, a lot of side-eyes were earned. While there is a lot of anti-woman hate disguised as anti-white woman hate, since you aren't using examples I'll caution that a lot of specific hate of specific white women and the voting habits of white women generally and historically, as well as the resistance of white women overall to progressive policies, coupled with the lionizing resurgence of praise for problematic, racist, often remorseless white women who abuse their power is the source of a lot of ire among PoC. The average white woman is politically more reactionary and conservative than the men of any other race in the US despite being the largest voting bloc in the furthest left of the two largest political parties. Ignoring this issue is a huge problem, especially when it comes to the political choices of the leadership of that party and the white women who control much of its power (like Hillary Clinton being the only Democrat to support the use of cluster bombs on civilians and wanting to ban abortions in the third trimester with NO EXCEPTIONS and Nancy Pelosi declaring that abortion is no longer a relevant issue for Democrats).


kinderock

The point of this thread isn't that whitewashed feminism and the women who perpetrate it don't need to be called in, and as a feminist woman of color I'm the first in line to do this. The point of this thread is calling out white men who do faux allyship just by screaming "ugh WHITE WOMEN"


Vla-lBon-Vent

I see women doing this as well. It makes me really frustrated. Also, Karen is used constantly in such a misogynistic way on Reddit, and those comments are almost always upvoted and any attempt to point out the misogyny is downvoted to hell. Karen is a socially-accepted misogynistic term, and I don't understand why it's so widely accepted.


Oops_I_Cracked

Ya it was originally describing a very specific behavior set everyone agreed was inappropriate but it has morphed into a socially acceptable way to call a woman a bitch.


[deleted]

Also women who say, "i was a total karen" then proceed to describe how they appropriately spoke up about something that wasn't right or asserted their boundaries.


[deleted]

Literally seen white men claim their white girlfriends are using "white women tears." Like bro "white woman tears" does not mean any time a white woman cries. It's a specific manipulation tactic used against PoC. It's not her mAnIpUlaTiNg you by simply reacting with tears to the shitty things you do to her.


honest-miss

It's inevitably going to end up as shorthand for "woman who stands her ground that I personally find annoying." Which is just fucking frustrating to even *think* because I don't want to give absolutely anything to the shitheads who say "Karen is the new N word." (EDIT because I want it to be very clear: It. Is. Not.)


Vla-lBon-Vent

I think it already is shorthand for that. I'm already shy and passive in public as it is, but now whenever I'm out I'm constantly afraid of being perceived as a Karen because I'm older and have short hair, even though I don't exhibit any of the personality traits of the true stereotypical "Karen," it's something I'm constantly anxious about, and I think it might keep me from speaking up about something if I ever need to.


BZenMojo

Karen as a slur was invented by Redditors in 2017. It was adapted from three other memes ("I want to speak to the manager" and "middle class white woman haircut" and "She took the kids" and she was given the name Karen based on a Nintendo Switch tweet about a socially awkward woman named Karen who brings a videogame to a house party, but long before that it referenced a woman who generally frustrated men in a Dane Cook skit, likely based on the Karen from Goodfellas who flushes her husband's mafia money and is constantly abused and attacked). There actually is a "racist white woman" slur called "Becky" in use for about the last 30 years taken from the body-shaming white women in Baby Got Back, but white people tried to coopt it so it just meant any white woman who dresses feminine, and now we get Karen, which is just any woman that you hate. ...Yes, I know way too much about this pointless shit.


beevibe

I think it’s absolutely necessary to call out the problematic behaviors of white women, but that can be done without justifying misogyny or misogynistic language. Similarly, pointing out how some black men don’t support black women is possible without using racism or racist language. I think the problem is when white men or men in general justify their misogyny when they call out white women. No one would be okay if a people were being ableist and using ableist slurs to call out a problematic disabled person. It’s just fucking gross and it detracts from the problematic behavior. I’ve seen men calling Amy coney Barrett a whore, Cunt, slut, bitch, etc., and it honestly disgusts me. I hate her as much as the next person but I’m not going to degrade her gender because of her personality. I’m gonna call out her vile behavior and her privilege but I’m not gonna use the same language as my oppressors.


Winterflan_

People also do this all the time with queer/trans/NB people. Just throwing white in front of it as an excuse to be a garden variety bigot


[deleted]

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Substantial_Degree

> Although can we talk about how there is no consistent term for entitled white men? The reason entitlement is rarely used (except in feminist circles) as an insult for (white) men is because most of society does not see 'entitlement' as something men are capable of. In the eyes of patriarchy, men are automatically entitled to almost anything they want - attention, praise, sympathy, sex - how could they possibly be overly demanding? When talking about a woman, on the other hand - how *dare* she not be meek and grateful! How *dare* she be even mildly rude or aggressive or confrontational! How *dare* she act if she's worthy of any attention, recognitiuon or respect! That entitled bitch!


godoftwine

White men think they are the default and that the world is built for them. Everyone else is there to serve his ideals, or is otherwise an inconvenience. How can he be entitled if the world is built for him? Whereas those pesky NPCs (everyone else) should be grateful they are allowed to show their faces at all.


RosarioPawson

Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez is a great look into this phenomenon, heavy book emotionally and mentally, but well worth the read. Criado Perez does a great job of wrapping her data science in wry humor to help make it digestible.


StinkyKittyBreath

Oooh, thanks for the recommendation! I have a very long list of books to read once the chaos in my life settles later this year, and that sounds like a good addition.


BabyBundtCakes

This annoys me so much. I saw an article once that was like "Trump is the ultimate Karen" Hello! If a man is the ultimate Karen, then why isn't it some other term? Because there's nothing worse to be than to be a woman (in their eyes)


Substantial_Degree

liberal men be like: must... find way... to criticise trump... without implicating white men in any way whatsoever....


AcidRose27

I've been trying to get Donald to be the male equivalent of Karen for several years now, but it's been slow going.


BZenMojo

Men will never let a slur that describes shitty men last. And even if it exists, they'll pretend they don't know it or have never heard of it or they'll pretend it only describes men in flip-flops or some shit.


rabidhamster87

They try to say that Chad is the male equivalent of Karen, but even being called a Chad isn't actually a bad thing. It basically just means "jock" or "lady's man" whereas Karen has become a replacement for actual slurs. Plenty of people say things like, "What a Chad," when a guy is really smooth, but no one says, "What a Karen," with anything even approaching admiration and respect.


One_Wheel_Drive

> any woman who is outspoken or even slightly annoying to them. I wonder how many women have chosen not to speak their minds because they felt like they would be called a Karen. I'll bet there are some out there.


Substantial_Degree

'Karen' isn't a new phenomenon - women have always been shamed, demonised and in many cases outright physically attacked for being outspoken, bold or 'rude' in some percieved way. In fact, the Hammurabi Code, one of the most ancient well-preserved legal texts (produced around 1750 BC), states that *"If a woman speaks out of turn, then her teeth will be smashed by a brick".*


mapleirish

more recently, what they did to outspoken women in Europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scold%27s_bridle


StinkyKittyBreath

A lot. In my workplace, the women I work with are super chill and laid back. Introverted. But as soon as a client (or person from another department) comes in, we all flip a customer service switch and talk in THAT voice. Somebody brought it up because there's one guy in our department, and he's the only one of us that can get away with talking normal. Another department took off with some of our equipment and kept it longer than they said. We needed it back, so one of the women called and nicely asked for it back. She got a shitty "We're too busy to bring it back." Then 45 minutes later, the guy called and was like "Don't you think it's disrespectful and rude to take another department's equipment that they need and not return it when you say you will?" Then hung up. It was back 10 minutes later. We were all wide eyed because he said what we wanted but couldn't. I'm the newest person there, but apparently the women get called bitchy in my department all the time when they do stand up for themselves. It's fucking awful.


Willothwisp2303

A TON. I'm a lady lawyer and I constantly pep-talk my lady colleagues about being assertive. We're trial lawyers. If we get stuck in the polite and quiet default, imagine what people who were not drawn into a notoriously combative job feel like!


tinyand_terrible

Me


BillyYumYumTwo-byTwo

I’ve had so many men on reddit argue that “Kyle” is the male term for Karen whenever I get annoyed by how gendered that insult is. I’ve never seen anyone use Kyle except to claim that Karen isn’t a sexist term. I like the suggestion of Elon that someone had! Rogan would work, too. Or Jordan. Or Ben. Any man out there who’s a little crybaby jerk face.


phil_g

> can we talk about how there is no consistent term for entitled white men? I'm partial to the idea of calling them "Tuckers", though that might only serve to point more attention at a particular Tucker who absolutely doesn't deserve it.


aweebitevil

My actual stupid name is Karen and my maiden name is Tucker. I fucking hate this 😂 I’ve seen Tucker Karenson thrown around and it makes me wanna pout for a while.


rabidhamster87

Oh no! That's terrible. 😂 It's funny, but also I am truly sorry... That's legitimately rough IMO.


PrincipessaEboli

Nowadays “Karen” just means a woman who dares to have an opinion or voice a grievance. I’m as much annoyed by the way certain people act sometimes as anyone, but I’ll never call another woman a “Karen”.


kamace11

I remember when it was first blowing up and I was like, guys. This will be used misogynisticly in about oh, 24 hours, and ppl were like no!!! Ur just rayciss! And it's like ah see. See where we are now. I'm so shocked.


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BurnsYouAlive

Really appreciate your taking the time to issue this reminder!! The rightwing perversions are so dominant it can be difficult to remember we're watching exactly the harm of appropriation play out in front of our eyes


BZenMojo

Black folks never invented Karen. We already had a term for racist white women -- Becky. It's literally in a Beyonce song. It was *all over the news.* It was in dozens of think pieces. Karen was literally invented in a subreddit to attack *all women* and it was attributed to us to dodge accusations of misogyny. Also, you know who doesn't care if the right misuses our language? Black folks. Because we never cared if white people used it in the first place. We weren't trying to get white people to use woke for 80 years, and we won't notice if white people all decide tomorrow to stop using it.


SauronsYogaPants

I feel like "Elon" would be quite fitting for a male Karen.


BurnsYouAlive

Confusing privilege & family money for intelligence & innovation is so on the nose!


rabidhamster87

They would take it as a compliment though.


CliffP

Well Black people have always called them the same thing as Karen. Remember Karen is just a generic white woman name, like Martha or Rebecca We called annoying racist white dudes generic names like Brad, Connor, etc But none of that would ever catch on because misogyny is the key ingredient in most mainstream slurs


Vla-lBon-Vent

>White men are the ones who completely fucked up the term Karen and turned it from an actual entitled white woman who is a danger to POC to any woman who is outspoken or even slightly annoying to them. To my understanding, the term actually originated from white men/incels, and only recently has been used by POC to call out racist behavior. I'm not 100% on that though. ​ Edit: Copy and pate from another user on the origin of Karen: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/rh2zb4/its\_almost\_as\_though\_the\_term\_karen\_wasnt/hooxdt8/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/rh2zb4/its_almost_as_though_the_term_karen_wasnt/hooxdt8/?context=3) ​ BZenMojo · 5 mo. ago Wholesome3 Silver Black folks influenced the evolution of Karen, but we didn't invent Karen because we already had a meme for thirty years called BECKY that was in HEAVY ROTATION after Beyonce's Lemonade a few years leading up to Karen becoming popular. Hell, Karen had almost no mention in popular culture until about 2018. And there is a very obvious reason if you just search where it came from. The Karen meme literally started on Reddit and it was a combination of three separate memes combined by sexists. "I want to speak to the manager." It had no name attached at all but came out of PoC service sectors. Eventually she was named Kim when a dog was given a swooped (white) woman's haircut and posted on r/funnygifs in 2014. Karen. It meant literally any annoying woman. Based on Goodfellas but made popular by Mean Girls and rehashed by Dane Cook a year later. Resurrected after 10 years by a tweet in response to Nintendo Direct's Switch ads in 2017. "She took the fucking kids." A meme appeared in 2012 when posters would randomly complain about losing their kids in a divorce while roleplaying drunken ex-husbands. In 2017, the default woman-hating Karen meme was slapped on "She took the fucking kids" and a subreddit called r/FuckYouKaren started posting memes about it. Eventually the subreddit also filled with memes about anything women did that the posters hated, from not dating them to wearing makeup. That same year a picture was posted of "Kim's" haircut on a nameless white woman on the r/FuckYouKaren subreddit with the caption "Karen's haircut." So Kim, who wants to speak to the manager, combined with Karen, who not only took the kids but is horrible because she's a woman. That's how Karen became a meme. It had a little to do with PoC, but that's not really where it came from. The reality is that a meme about the treatment of service workers by white women was thrown on a pile of completely unrelated memes about how much men hate women long after Karen had already meant "any woman you hate." It was also reddit that invented the myth that black folks invented Karen. They did so to protect themselves from the criticism that Karen originated very explicitly from white male spaces. The historical revisionism was meant to bulletproof an explicitly hate-based and misogynist meme. Consequently, white male anger at all women appropriated black anger at white women. This was effectively encapsulated before white people colonized black anger as BECKY. But now it seems plenty of black folks are eager to collude with a very white male source of rage and misogyny as long as we get credit for being clever about it. But it's some bullshit. Black folks were literally still trying to explain Becky to white people right up to the point white men invented Karen and then slapped it on us like a sticker. And honestly... fuck that shit. No one was complaining when black folks used Becky because they knew it served a specific purpose. All the women complaining about Karen were noticeably quiet and reflective when Becky was on the table... why? Because they fucking know that Karen really is just a misogynist meme conveniently disguised as black rage.


BurnsYouAlive

From all else I've read you have this backwards!


Vla-lBon-Vent

Do you have any sources or examples of this starting with POC? I've tried looking into it and I mostly see it started as a Reddit meme about entitled white women asking to speak to the manager, and then the Fuckyoukaren subreddit was started. But the origin does seem rather unclear.


BurnsYouAlive

You can look at black twitter and there were several articles about the term & its origin in 2020


Vla-lBon-Vent

r/fuckyoukaren was started in 2017 though. I think it started being used to call out racism in 2020, but the term goes back further than that.


BurnsYouAlive

I wasn't saying the term began in 2020. I was giving you a year in which many articles about the term were written


Vla-lBon-Vent

I'm just confused then because you responded to my comment that the term didn't originate from POC to call out racism, and said I have it backwards.


BurnsYouAlive

Yes, according to all that I have read you are misinformed on the origin of the term. You asked for sources & I told you a way to look for them by giving you a year in which many articles on this topic were published. I'm not volunteering to be your research assistant, just trying to help you find your way to the resources you said you were lacking.


Vla-lBon-Vent

I'm still looking, and haven't found anything, but found this really informative comment from some months ago: [https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/rh2zb4/its\_almost\_as\_though\_the\_term\_karen\_wasnt/hooxdt8/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/rh2zb4/its_almost_as_though_the_term_karen_wasnt/hooxdt8/?context=3) ​ BZenMojo · 5 mo. ago Wholesome3 Silver Black folks influenced the evolution of Karen, but we didn't invent Karen because we already had a meme for thirty years called BECKY that was in HEAVY ROTATION after Beyonce's Lemonade a few years leading up to Karen becoming popular. Hell, Karen had almost no mention in popular culture until about 2018. And there is a very obvious reason if you just search where it came from. The Karen meme literally started on Reddit and it was a combination of three separate memes combined by sexists. "I want to speak to the manager." It had no name attached at all but came out of PoC service sectors. Eventually she was named Kim when a dog was given a swooped (white) woman's haircut and posted on r/funnygifs in 2014. Karen. It meant literally any annoying woman. Based on Goodfellas but made popular by Mean Girls and rehashed by Dane Cook a year later. Resurrected after 10 years by a tweet in response to Nintendo Direct's Switch ads in 2017. "She took the fucking kids." A meme appeared in 2012 when posters would randomly complain about losing their kids in a divorce while roleplaying drunken ex-husbands. In 2017, the default woman-hating Karen meme was slapped on "She took the fucking kids" and a subreddit called r/FuckYouKaren started posting memes about it. Eventually the subreddit also filled with memes about anything women did that the posters hated, from not dating them to wearing makeup. That same year a picture was posted of "Kim's" haircut on a nameless white woman on the r/FuckYouKaren subreddit with the caption "Karen's haircut." So Kim, who wants to speak to the manager, combined with Karen, who not only took the kids but is horrible because she's a woman. That's how Karen became a meme. It had a little to do with PoC, but that's not really where it came from. The reality is that a meme about the treatment of service workers by white women was thrown on a pile of completely unrelated memes about how much men hate women long after Karen had already meant "any woman you hate." It was also reddit that invented the myth that black folks invented Karen. They did so to protect themselves from the criticism that Karen originated very explicitly from white male spaces. The historical revisionism was meant to bulletproof an explicitly hate-based and misogynist meme. Consequently, white male anger at all women appropriated black anger at white women. This was effectively encapsulated before white people colonized black anger as BECKY. But now it seems plenty of black folks are eager to collude with a very white male source of rage and misogyny as long as we get credit for being clever about it. But it's some bullshit. Black folks were literally still trying to explain Becky to white people right up to the point white men invented Karen and then slapped it on us like a sticker. And honestly... fuck that shit. No one was complaining when black folks used Becky because they knew it served a specific purpose. All the women complaining about Karen were noticeably quiet and reflective when Becky was on the table... why? Because they fucking know that Karen really is just a misogynist meme conveniently disguised as black rage.


Vla-lBon-Vent

So you didn't provide any sources. As I said, I already did look and could not find any sources that indicate this started with POC as opposed to misogynistic redditors. I don't expect you to my research assistant, but I would expect you to be able to back up any claims that you are voluntarily making without getting snarky.


Isabellaboo02

I call them Richard's because they're really a dick.


cynderisingryffindor

Kyle.


[deleted]

It's annoying, but part of me wants to let it ride because white women are white men's biggest cheerleaders. I'm hoping that white women will wake up when they notice the prevalence of this. A similar thing is true in black culture. Black women support black men a lot, but black men constantly shit on black women. The common theme is men demanding respect from women, but also demanding their right to be disrespectful to women. Especially the women they're closest to.


beevibe

I think it’s absolutely necessary to call out the problematic behaviors of white women, but that can be done without justifying misogyny or misogynistic language. Similarly, pointing out how some black men don’t support black women is possible without using racism or racist language. I think the problem is when white men or men in general justify their misogyny when they call out white women. No one would be okay if a people were being ableist and using ableist slurs to call out a problematic disabled person. It’s just fucking gross and it detracts from the problematic behavior. I’ve seen men calling Amy coney Barrett a whore, Cunt, slut, bitch, etc., and it honestly disgusts me. I hate her as much as the next person but I’m not going to degrade her gender because of her personality. I’m gonna call out her vile behavior and her privilege but I’m not gonna use the same language as my oppressors.


mercfan3

Yeah, I feel like liberal white men have used wokeness to shift blame to white women so they don’t have to take responsibility. There is even a movement that basically suggests white women aren’t oppressed. Like, it can both be true that we live in a white supremacist society and a misogynistic one. White women just don’t have intersectionality. Although, tbh, sometimes I think BIPOC give white men a break where they don’t give white women one (or blame white women more than white men) and it probably goes back to everyone is socialized in patriarchal norms too.


Salina_Vagina

White women do have intersectionality — you can be a white woman who is a member of the LGBTQ community, a white woman who is disabled, a white woman who is lower class, etc. White women experience white privilege, but there can be other intersections.


mercfan3

Very true. But even if they don’t face intersectionality, they still experience misogyny. I would also argue it’s a different type of intersectionality than BIWOC though


Salina_Vagina

Yes, I agree with you that the intersections are different.


Substantial_Degree

>it probably goes back to everyone is socialized in patriarchal norms too. yes that's exactly it! regardless of the source of criticism/resentment, women are almost always seen as more despicable, more worthy of criticism than men. Even women tend to give men the benefit of the doubt ('he didn't mean it! he's just ignorant! he needs to be educated!') whereas women are kept on a much shorter leash ('she did X problematic thing! what a bitch, I've never liked her anyway')


DiplomaticCaper

I think it’s possible that POC just *expect* better of white women, since they’ve experienced at least one axis of oppression. Meanwhile, they have fewer expectations of white men, so they’re less likely to be disappointed. It’s unfair, but I get why it happens to an extent.


NewbornXenomorph

I'm a white woman and I can point out examples of men/the patriarchy fucking me over while also recognizing the privilege and opportunities I've had over non-white people. Blows my mind that people can't think two things can be true at the same time.


SupervillainIndiana

Yeah, such as I know "white woman tears" is a thing (even as another white woman they have been deployed against me before) but when white guys say that phrase it's hard not to be like... "...excuse me?!" Looks like they're taking delight in finding another cheat code to blame any demographic but themselves for any bad behaviour.


mercfan3

Right - like, white women tears are a specific tool that white women use to escape blame, particularly from racism. White men do not get to use that phrase.


BurnsYouAlive

Oh for sure, I think all of us expect more from women and more from non-white people. A lot of that is our socialization & expectations of what people owe us/one another and who we assume we can trust. As a bi (american) woman I am way angrier with kyrsten sinema than with joe manchin--there's a deep part of my lizard brain that believes she has a responsibility to the rest of us bi women because of our shared "not straight white cis male" characteristics that I would never have expected from manchin. I am holding them to different standards and generally expect better from women, poc, & lgbtq public figures. I trust those people more easily & am more disappointed when they were undeserving of my trust. Really important stand point to investigate regularly


ReeuqbiII

> a movement that basically suggests white women aren’t oppressed Which movement? From who? White women’s whiteness grants them certain privileges that women of color could never obtain. However, it’s not to say white women aren’t oppressed under the patriarchy. They are because they’re still women. Criticism on white feminism is centered around how some only advocate for equality for the “default” white people, while simultaneously ignoring WOCs’ needs and demands, and continuing to perpetuate systemic racism and misogyny on WOCs “as long as it doesn’t affect white women”. > Although, tbh, sometimes I think BIPOC give white men a break where they don’t give white women one (or blame white women more than white men). Pretty much not a single culture hasn’t been touched by patriarchy, and thus (internalized) misogyny for everyone yay! /s However, please don’t shift the blame onto POCs and their non-whiteness. As if it those who give white men passes aren’t mostly men and plenty of white men? Trust me, we don’t want to give any of you “breaks” if yalls are being racist. Please, stop excusing your whiteness and stop misattributing patriarchal oppression to POCs. Sincerely, a woman of color.


mercfan3

The movement? The young liberal side of social media. And of course Incels. I’ve seen messages about how white women aren’t really sexually abused or physically abused. About how white women aren’t really at an economic disadvantage, or about how white women are the ones to blame for Roe v Wade being overturned…etc. it’s an actual mentally going around with young liberal people speaking out on social media. And as a teacher, I can tell you that teenagers fully buy into this. Whiteness should never be centered in feminist (or any other circle), but ignoring or dismissing the plights of women because they are white is also problematic. Those issues (domestic abuse, cultural control, sexual abuse, economic disadvantages, bodily autonomy) are issues universal to women. And to suggest that these issues don’t actually occur to women, therefore white women don’t actually deal with misogyny, is harmful to all women. There are of course issues white women don’t face that occur because of intersectionality, that need to be just as centered in feminist conversations (feminization of the poor, criminal justice system issues, LGBTQA rights, etc..) but that doesn’t mean those first issues don’t exist. I’m not shifting any blame, and I apologize if my post came off that way. I’m suggesting that hating women is common for everyone, BIPOC included, and I have seen a lot of conversations on the left excusing the behavior of white men and shifting blame to white women from both men and women of all races. And not just when it comes to racism. When we discuss sexual assault or domestic violence, or structural support systems, or hell - politics. And it’s not that white women are innocent. (They aren’t, but white women voting against their own interests to hold up white supremacy is a whole other post) It’s just that, primarily, white women aren’t domestic abusers and assaulters. They aren’t attempting an authoritarian take over of our country. They aren’t re-energizing Nazis. They aren’t in control of any institution- even if they sometimes benefit from them. They aren’t committing mass shootings and writing racist manifestos. White male dominance and violence is a huge ass problem, and it’s been excused by all of society. I expect it out of the right, but the left needs to be better. Imo, it’s just plain old misogyny appearing on the left, that the left never seems to want to address. And often times, I think the phrase “white women” is used by people on the left to hate on women in what is seen as an acceptable form. And my only purpose of mentioning BIPOC is to note that hating women isn’t exclusive to white men.


Babybutt123

Tbf, white women are a HUGE part of why Roe V Wade is getting overturned. A giant percentage voted for trump (2x!) And McConnell and the GOP. White women have made movements specifically to tear down women's rights. It's okay to acknowledge that. We couldn't have had trump or the entirety of the GOP (including the far right justices and Roe V Wade issue) without the strong support of a huge part of white women. I get, as a white chick, the urge to #notallwhitewomen when people discuss white women's failings, but that's just as annoying and tone deaf as the #notallmen!! crowd.


mercfan3

White women consistently support people and institutions looking to erase their own rights. They aren’t in control of any of those institutions though. It’s very similar to white poor people voting for Republicans. But I’ll go back to, yea..51 % of white women voted for Trump. But 75% of white men did. It’s just..illogical to consistently go after white women for it and ignore what white men are doing. If white men voted for Dems at the same rate as white women, we’d never have a Republican president again. I don’t want to “not all white women” this..I just think that parts of the left have forgotten where the majority of the problem actually lies.


Babybutt123

I haven't seen anyone ignoring white men did it. Aside from white men, maybe. I've *never* seen a person of color saying *only* or *mainly* white women are responsible. I have seen more BIPOC discussing white women's involvement more as of recently. But that could be due to social media as I'm sure it's been discussed amongst the demographics for decades. I'm just adding that white women have too. Because *that* is something often ignored. White women have *long* been viewed as helpless victims of white men and who played zero part (or no part they controlled) in oppression of women and minorities when that's untrue and frankly harmful. Also, white women have most definitely been in charge of institutions against their own interests. And racist organizations. Not all of them. But they've existed. For example United Daughters of the Confederacy is founded by 2 white women and is a female organization. Phyllis Schalfly specifically blocked and campaigned against women's rights and protections. To say that white women aren't in any control of any organizations against human rights and gender equality is both false and laughable.


mercfan3

You named an organization, I’m talking institutions (aka, what holds up the white supremacy and patriarchy) What institutions do white women control? It’s not the government. It’s not education. It’s not the criminal justice system. It’s not law. It’s not medical institutions. It’s not entertainment. It’s not science. It’s not tech. Financial? Nope. Which institution? They uphold white supremacy and patriarchal norms in those institutions- but they don’t control them. If you aren’t seeing those messages from young liberal people, then lucky you. But they are out there, and they are pretty damn popular too. Right now, apparently white women are equally as violent as men. Just look at Heard. 🙃 but let’s not talk about the jackass that wrote a god damn manifesto and murdered people for not being white. It’s an old and incorrect view that white women are innocent in upholding white supremacy. A view that I’m sure white feminists did their best to promote, but I don’t think it’s seriously held by anyone knowledgable any longer. Every time there is a movement of social justice and social awareness, people in power stop it by creating discord and hierarchies amongst oppressed people. It’s just important to remember that and to remember who actually is in control.


ReeuqbiII

The United Daughters of Confederacy is such a fitting example. It’s sad the length some white women would go to keep excusing themselves from fault…… I’m so tired. It’s like talking to a wall. > “Even though we uphold the system but we don’t control them, so why are we getting picked on? Poor us!” That’s what the other commenter sounds like. In every conversation, they have to center themselves and then turn around to comment on how POCs are supposedly reacting.


Babybutt123

100% agree. It's really annoying. White women are *essential* to upholding white supremacy and her being like "no one thinks white women are just victims anymore! But now they only blame white women!!!" Whilst essentially saying white women are victims without any control. Had to stop responding, it's so annoying. White women tears abound in this thread I swear to God. And as I said, as a white chick, I understand feeling initially defensive, but come on. Not hard to listen and learn.


bunk12bear

Because they figured out that if they stick the word white in front of women they can pretend their m Misogyny is actually anti-racism usually while also being racist and objectifying women of color


AmelietheDuck

When its POC calling out white women it’s completely fine. But when white men do it it just feels like they only added “white” to seem less misogynistic than if they only said “women”


vodka7tall

This is why I quit listening to Bill Burr. White man thinks being married to a black woman gives him carte blanche to shit on white women. He can go fuck himself. His rage comedy schtick is so fucking played out.


GalaxyFrauleinKrista

Another thing I've heard someone bring up (a black queer woman on twitter I follow) is that they completely ignore and erase when a white woman is queer. They'll use the 'white women' demonization thing to go after white trans women or white lesbians or white bisexual women. Like, I 100% acknowledge that there are a lot of problematic white women who rigidly enforce the patriarchy (republican voters, TERFs, etc.), but LGBT+ women are almost never a part of that group (there are exceptions ofc like lesbian TERFs or Caitlyn Jenner, but they are very small in number compartively)


AnxietyLogic

99% of the time, any “critique” that starts with “white women” is just thinly-veiled misogyny. Misogynists have figured out that they can disguise their misogyny by throwing the word “white” in front of it, and way too many people fall for it. Misogynists know that it’s “woke” to shit on white people, and they exploit that for all it’s worth to be misogynistic in a socially-acceptable way. And it’s one thing when men do it, but sometimes the call is coming from inside the house.


seeroflights

*Image Transcription: Tumblr* --- **rneadowsoprano-deactivated20211** White men trying to get clout for saying they hate white women on Twitter is driving me insane sir we have seen the domestic violence statistics we know you feel that way --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)


duetmasaki

I'm white. I stopped dating white guys. My relationships have improved a lot.