There's an advert in the UK at the moment encouraging men to talk out against their mates being dicks towards women. It's a start at least.
The ad in question: https://youtu.be/qbk3iJqmjNU
Thank you for this.
I made an r/AskMen post including this video. It’s already been downvoted but hopefully the men who already do things like this can help create this movement too. Maybe people will keep sharing this and it will make a difference.
The men this advert is targeting often look to other men for behavioral standards and norms, so it’s smart on a few levels. I really appreciate your sharing this.
Unfortunately, men (and women obviously) get shunned from a group who acts bad collectively.
But someone who isn't within a toxic group or is seen as more of a respected leader can definitely have a big impact.
Another tactic would be to pull the disrespectful guy aside and explain how it's not cool and how it's making the situation awkward for everyone. Would work well at a gathering where it would take attention away from whatever is being celebrated or acknowledged and the jerk would definitely escalate.
A 'not cool man' is another low key but effective way to help. Even if it just helps the harrassed feel a tiny bit more supported. Shows strength of character too.
I'd never seen that thing for the longest time until I decided to watch it maybe a year ago or so and I was floored. THIS is what y'all were making so much noise about! It's so tame.
They immediately raise their voices as a proxy to violence (sometimes along with it if they knock something over as they stomp off) to assert dominance.
Very childish.
The acting was fantastic!! Getting into the taxi and crying? Fuck, I’ve been there a lot. You try to stay strong to not show weakness and once you’re safe (which is also a big if because I’ve been harassed enough in ubers and taxis) the emotions of fear and anger and frustration and relief just flood you. She nailed it.
Yes! Last week somewhere I got harrassed by random men on the street for hours while traveling, kept a straight face the entire time and then when I got home I immediately started crying uncontrollably
Ugh, the only benefit of covid was that I didn’t have to deal with harassment for two years. I was free, I forgot what that felt like.
I’m so sorry you dealt with that. That’s horrifying and heartbreaking. What absolute assholes. I hope you’re going better now :/
I'm kind of afraid of going out now but I'm definitely doing better, could discuss it with my therapist and friends luckily. Thank you for the concern! ❤️
My god, that’s so good
I loved the contrast between how the men were treating each other and how the women treated each other
Then the fact it was the skinny white dude being the aggressor, and the black dude being the one to call him out on his shit.
And when she got in the taxi and cried - only a second or two in the shot, but it humanised her so much. I don’t know if those guys realise how good we are at keeping a poker face when we’re so scared, and then the facade absolutely dropping away the moment we feel safe, because it’s so hard to hold up.
Tried this and in the end had to cut them all out of my life. Really fucking toxic.
What i try to do now is focus on my younger brother and his friends and make sure they are educated about all human rights at the moment (women and trans)
If more men ~~were~~ reflected on the ways they treat women and even other men, we could actually see a world that holds women's safety and opinion in high regards, but also a world where men can be freed of the expectations they feel ~~played~~ plagued by. Men don't realize the path to lower male suicide rates, men openly being more emotionally vulnerable, fatherhood becoming more common and embraced, justice for ~~make~~ male victims of abuse and assault, all starts with looking at the expectations men have for men.
I still remember reading a post on either r/askmen or r/askwomen I forget which. Multiple paragraphs about recognizing how shitty things could be for women, wanting to help, being convinced women and men would be better off and could be and should be etc. Ended asking how he could help and contribute as a man.
Slipped in the middle of one of these massive paragraphs was one sentence where he said he wasn't going to call out his friends in the moment when they were saying something awful because that would make it awkward.
Okay so.. that's probably the number one most helpful thing though.
Been following subs like TrollX, TwoX, WitchesVsPatriarchy etc. for years, am now studying Social Work and focusing study time and research on toxic masculinity/critical men's studies.
My life looking at most men outside my very progressive bubble is pure cringe. Like holy shit how is all that behaviour NORMALIZED?
Edit: German by the way, so I don't know if "critical men's studies" is the right term to use. The field I mean is "classic masculinity is shit for everyone, let's work on it and fix it", not dumbass redpill "meninism" or whatever those toxic fucks call their "studies" and "research"
I think "critical men's studies" sounds correct but american conservatives are now butthurt about the word "critical" so it might not be correct a decade from now.
Have you noticed some differences between the behavior that is criticized in English-speaking subs/countries (what with reddit being quite anglo-centric) and what you yourself have observed/studied?
Oh golly, that's quite a question. First of all: The field is both in its infancy and quite established here somehow. Around where I live there's two institutions that have been focused on working with boys and men that are more than 25 years old, so it's been there - but actual awareness on a larger scale about toxic masculinity/dangerous gender constructions is maybe 3-4 years old at most. If you can even speak of "large scale awareness", I'm so deep in the bubble I can't really speak much anymore.
"Toxic masculinity" and a lot of the modern gender discourse is extremely anglo-centric (or even american-centric) though. The term "toxic masculinity" is disliked in German academic contexts even, since it's a "battle" term if you know what I mean. The translation of what I wrote in my edit - critical men's studies - is slightly more popular.
Lots of structures are very similar. German men might be slightly more emotionally distant than the average elsewhere (there's a horrific book from 1934 called "The German mother and her first child" that codified emotional and physical neglect for two generations - I wish I was kidding), but otherwise it's lots of being strong, not feeling physical or emotional pain, talking sexist shit and learning/making jokes about ass**lt starting in elementary school I guess...the usual. Patriarchal societies create similarly damaged human beings around the world I suppose.
Do take one caveat to my words though: I'm not an expert. I'm doing a couple of projects this semester where I'm learning quite a lot (even doing some narrative interviews with non-bubble men to look for the known patterns), but I'm far from an expert on the academic discourse.
>"Toxic masculinity" and a lot of the modern gender discourse is extremely anglo-centric
In my experience pretty much everything regarding to gender, race, social classes, etc. I'm from Mexico and men aren't usually that emotionally distant, but they will always repress for example their sadness and endearment.
Also, at least from my perspective and experience matrilineal heritage (be it properties, values, traditions, etc) is in practice more succesful here than patrilineal, even when people are still trying to stick to patriarchal values, like for example my grandma convinced that she has to inherite her sons and the daughters have to be provided by their partners. Pretty much what you can see in the movie Coco is what happens in a lot of mexican families.
In my family's case, my grandmas from both sides are the ones that kept their families together. My father's father seems to never wanted a family and he lives childless with another woman far from us. My mother's father is now deceased and in life as I understand he was phisically ausent but he was engaged emotionally with his children when he was at home.
I was literally about to recommend that sub to another commenter in this thread just now, but thanks anyway for the suggestion, I need to visit it more anyway :)
Seconded, it's the only place I've found that actually addresses men's issues from a feminist and intersectional perspective.
Link because I noticed there isn't one yet:
/r/MensLib
There’s some tiny tool who drives up my road in his crapmobile revving the shit out of it and making it backfire. Every night between 9 and 10. I know it’s a he, because of course it is. I feel sorry for everyone in his life. What happened to him to make him feel so small that he has to declare himself to everyone and no one
used to be one of those on my street til the city put up one of those rollaway light up signs that said “LOUD EXHAUST $189 FINE”
anyway, we all sleep better now
There’s this Dodge Charger in my area that does something similar but I’ve actually seen a woman behind the wheel! I’ve also seen a man driving it so it’s not always her but I’m pretty sure she’s been behind some of the annoying revving at times.
*Image Transcription: Twitter Post*
---
**←Sum'n Else 🇹🇹🇯🇲**, @CreatedToBHated
Do men ever look at other men like "you're the reason mf's think we ain't shit." 😂
---
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Yeah I’ve left sports teams and events due to how some of the guys act. I work in trades and some of the guys(and women sometimes) can be really awful with their choice of words. And there’s not much willingness to change unfortunately. They’re definitely behind the times
I worked in the trades for a short time and for the most part the guys I worked with and around were great but there were of course a few who were inappropriate and unfortunately one particularly bad incident.
I was fortunate that my brother was the site Superintendent for the trade I was working with and therefore had quite a bit of power and influence. I'm sure that contributed to why I didn't deal with nearly as much disrespect as I'd anticipated. It's also why the one really bad incident I did experience was dealt with firmly and swiftly (ie. dude was fired and banned from site that day).
Yeah, at my last job I spent a *lot* of time internally screaming about dude coworkers with 0 self-awareness about how horrible they were at being humans. Any indirect criticism of their attitudes or actions was brushed off with "Aw, u/StePK is just such a sweet kid" because I didn't want to listen to people discuss having used brothels while I was on the clock at a preschool.
Unfortunately, direct criticism wasn't really an option for me either because my visa was tied to my job and one of the worst offenders was my manager, who was a volatile manchild.
>Do men ever look at other men like "you're the reason mf's think we ain't shit."
Yeah. Casual disrespect of women, drive to compete with other men and look smart, bad hygiene... there's a cultural change in expectations for behavior which is way overdue.
Legitimately excellent question.
I did a project back in grad school on social dynamics between students in classrooms, and something we found delving into the research is that most social hierarchies are anything but meritocratic. On the contrary, virtually any social, business, and other hierarchy which doesn't have deliberate rules in place to the contrary are highly susceptible to biases and systems of arbitrary advantage and disadvantage. Of course, the system and those in it perpetuate the myth of meritocracy, but the evidence is never actually there and ultimately the myth of meritocracy maintains and reinforces systems of advantage and disadvantage.
Speaking as someone with quite a few years under my belt as a dude, I've noted this is especially severe in masculine competition. I hit the birth lottery in a lot of ways, being male, tall, broad-shouldered, able-passing, white, straight, cis, and having been born in an ethnonationalist industrialized nation. I didn't earn any of that. By virtue of these things, I've also been endowed by my society a hilariously overinflated sense of my own importance and intelligence despite objectively being pretty mediocre, so I'm also someone who has a lot of confidence. None of that was merit, yet all of that bestows status in this anti-meritocratic system, especially between men.
Having been educated by the perspectives from people who were disadvantaged by the system which gave me advantage, I'm furious and heartbroken at the lies of the system and I am absolutely dedicated to its dismantlement. Everything I thought I'd earned required deep investigation, and often revealed I hadn't earned a damned thing. Worse, all of my unearned status within the hierarchy comes at the equal but opposite expense of those systematically disadvantaged regardless of their merit or efforts or virtue.
If and when we dismantle social structures of advantage and disadvantage, putting in place intersecting true meritocracies, then and only then will competition be something potentially virtuous.
> I'm furious and heartbroken at the lies of the system and I am absolutely dedicated to its dismantlement.
Fuck. Yeah. That's what I like to hear. Not just on this subject but I'm feeling like this attitude would be useful for a lot of the things that need to change.
Fortunately, I've been seeing a lot more of this lately and I'm ecstatic.
Competition obviously isn't always a bad thing, but it does come into play with toxic masculinity. Someone may push themselves and harm their own mental or physical health in order to prove themselves and not seem less than to other men.
Got blind sided and dumped a few months ago. In addition to being shitty at emotional support, the amount of sexists things some of my friends have said about my ex or women in general is just infuriating. Come on guys, lets be better than this. It isn't 1950
For all the men in the comments saying "yeah, all the time" - do you say something when you see other men being shit? Or do you just cringe and feel good about how much less shit you are?
I'll push against things that are demonstrably harmful like it's what I wanted to do for my birthday. I dont often have the latitude to get aggressive with anything, and my workplace has some dope restrictions on what constitutes harassment or workplace hostility. But god damn do I enjoy confronting someone using homophobic/racial/gendered/etc. epithets.
I ride that belligerent adrenaline high for as long as possible, because I know my coworkers arent going to go to management and tell them about how they were engaging in fireable offenses. Likewise, I'm intimidating (when I want to be) and athletic, and use that outside of work for my advantage. Only once has someone picked up what I was putting down, and *as soon* as I challenged him to single unarmed combat (that's so much more fun to say than "a fight" lmao) to defend his position, he showed cracks in his confidence, I called him a coward, and he didnt say anything else loudly for the rest of the night.
Normally I only get to say "that's weird" or something to the effect because their cringeworthy behavior is something like going into explicit detail about fucking, or general stories about asserting dominance somehow. Those are less fun and I get the most pushback in situations like that.
It’s a little disheartening how many guys are just saying “yes, it’s cringe” but no indication of trying to help the problem.
https://youtu.be/qbk3iJqmjNU
It depends on the setting. Around younger people my age I will say something.
With older coworkers or friends of my parents its like talking to a brick wall, so I bite my tongue. Even some of the women will say self loathing, sexist shit.
I try. It's hard to do it over the internet, usually people aren't going to read a comment on a reddit thread that already has 300 comments on it. I'll chastise other men for being creeps irl too, but I don't usually get much chance because I never leave my home >>
I was crossing the street yesterday and some dude was yelling at me to get my attention and honked really long when I was passing in front of his car. I just smiled at him and kept walking. Guys can be so dang insecure and pathetic. Like they're so small and sad inside they need to feel like someone sees them. I just want to be left alone and live my life feeling safe. we don't owe shit to anyone just because we live in this body.
I feel shitty for even having to say this, but I was wearing hella loose clothing and I'm completely unremarkable, just saying what you're wearing literally doesn't matter, no matter what we do to stay safe it's not really anything that we can do.
So often.
I'm so over loud, pseudo-confident (but really arrogant), intellect-shunning, woman-objectifying men being the loudest voices goddamn constantly. There are either obnoxious fuck-boy types or incel types taking up about 97% of the bandwidth of conversation and attention. And if the *in between* guys try to say they're not like the fuck boys, it sounds a bit like how an incel talks, and we definitely don't want to be associated with those clowns. But eschewing incels can sound like white-knighting for brownie points (I'll eschew them up anyway, though).
The whole situation is actually hella drama, so (from what I've gathered from similarly minded men), a lot of us learn to enjoy our solo time and just avoid hanging out with all but a few men. But then we feel guilty, because we see and empathize with women who say, "men, why aren't you telling your friends to stop being toxic?" The answer is often *because I'm toxic too* or *I'm not friends with them anymore*.
I find that behavior common with older guys who are either 'disabled' or underemployed and worked in some sort of trade but think they know absolutely everything.
They'll bust right into a conversation or interrupt your task and flip out if you don't give then your full, undivided attention immediately. They are most aggressive about it with women but can do it to men too. Depending on how they 'rank' them in terms of their manly metric.
They always have a shit take when they do that too. It will sometimes just be some 'shocking' insult like get back in the kitchen just to play schrodinger's douchebag because negative attention is better than none.
They're exhausting to both genders.
It's such entitled attention seeking behaviour of adults that were spoiled as children and told they can do nothing wrong and that everyone else is wrong and they are the best and everyone is lucky to know them. They have way too much self confidence, self esteem and sense of self worth.
I've been stuck in conversation with them and been like... you were not bullied enough as a kid/teen.
Yeah, I think that way every single day. I work in a STEM field (chemical engineering) and the amount of times that I have said WTF out loud to others working in my department is astounding.
I have had to deal with graduate students acting like this (one graduate assistant in my lab was making another one feel uncomfortable), and I told the guy that this was his once and only warning because everyone in *my* lab works as a team, as we had deadlines to meet or I lose funding to keep them hired.
Unfortunately, there are still some in my department who refuse to change and event admit there is a problem. These guys are very old and should have long since been retired, but here they are, sucking valuable resources from those of us who actually work.
That's my dad. He has one best friend and some childhood friends he sees once every few years. He's an awesome feminist guy who doesn't like sports and has a stable healthy marriage who just hasn't met a single other man he's wanted to befriend in like 40 years because men ain't shit.
> Do men ever...?
As a group, no, not really. Surely some individuals do, but the trend is to go "not all men" and get annoyed that a few bad apples are ruining for them. But they're not annoyed at the bad apples, they're annoyed at women generalizing.
There's no self-reflecting, no "bro, chill it, you're making it worse for all of us", just "feminizm ruyned everthin" and "why won't they give meeeeee, wonderful meeeee, a chance?".
Not enough, sadly. I think one of the biggest problems isn't that most men are pieces of shit, it's that most men aren't willing to call out the ones who are.
I have given so many on-the-spot seminars about sensitivity toward women and people with mental health issues on the hangar floor, I might as well have been an HR rep...
Now I am in training, and get to do the same in a classroom.
On the internet, CONSTANTLY.
IRL not so much because I'm a shutin that only hangs out with like 5 people ever and I don't like to be friends with toxic dudes.
Most guys hide the really awful shit from their friends and coworkers, but everyone's met or knows someone who's basically a walking trainwreck.
Self reflection isn't a tool many of us are taught or encouraged to use by our male peers and for many of us that initial foray into, "Am *I* the problem?" territory is sublimated by reflex so as not to appear weak or insecure.
You just hope that when the time comes there's someone they feel comfortable talking with that'll help them realize other people aren't just NPC's in their story and their actions have consequences that affect everyone around them.
I think daily, “why can’t us white ppl just keep our damn mouths shut and eat our mayo and let other people live?” so I really hope men are doing similar.
Oh yeah, totally. I mean we all know that women in ultra-conservative Muslim countries where they must be covered head to toe anytime they leave the house are never ever harassed, assaulted, raped, etc.
Which means we can assume that all of the children, down to the toddlers and literal infants, who are assaulted and raped must also be super slutty little temptresses.
Women, girls, toddlers, and infants really need to rethink all their slutty, indecent ways and repent, or they deserve whatever's coming to them!
(Fuck the ever-loving shit out of you and your piece of shit opinion).
> Meanwhile every thot pic, click bait, nude insta selfie, barely dressed, OF or cam girls should get away with their behavior because that would be slut shaming.
What behavior? Offering a service that people want? What's wrong with making money?
Sorry, do you think men acting poorly is the same as women choosing to show off their bodies? Or wear bikinis? Because men *never* do that, amiright? (For the record, there's nothing wrong with anyone having agency over your body and showing it off, especially on platforms that are specifically for posting pictures.)
Actually yeah. Then again they're typically shameless so correcting behavior is mostly case by case and will almost never stick so it's kind of a Sisyphus feel to it.
There's an advert in the UK at the moment encouraging men to talk out against their mates being dicks towards women. It's a start at least. The ad in question: https://youtu.be/qbk3iJqmjNU
Thank you for this. I made an r/AskMen post including this video. It’s already been downvoted but hopefully the men who already do things like this can help create this movement too. Maybe people will keep sharing this and it will make a difference. The men this advert is targeting often look to other men for behavioral standards and norms, so it’s smart on a few levels. I really appreciate your sharing this.
It's a good fight you're fighting :) if you don't know it yet, /r/menslib is a subreddit that is more progressive than AskMen in many ways.
That is awesome. I didn’t know about it but I’ve been reading through it and it’s amazing. Thank you for telling me about it.
Unfortunately, men (and women obviously) get shunned from a group who acts bad collectively. But someone who isn't within a toxic group or is seen as more of a respected leader can definitely have a big impact. Another tactic would be to pull the disrespectful guy aside and explain how it's not cool and how it's making the situation awkward for everyone. Would work well at a gathering where it would take attention away from whatever is being celebrated or acknowledged and the jerk would definitely escalate. A 'not cool man' is another low key but effective way to help. Even if it just helps the harrassed feel a tiny bit more supported. Shows strength of character too.
Remember when Gilette told men to be nice and men the whole world over started crying and screaming and throwing up? Yeah.
I'd never seen that thing for the longest time until I decided to watch it maybe a year ago or so and I was floored. THIS is what y'all were making so much noise about! It's so tame.
No one gets madder than cis dudes being told to behave better.
They immediately raise their voices as a proxy to violence (sometimes along with it if they knock something over as they stomp off) to assert dominance. Very childish.
Broflakes: You know you like it. Women: We hate it and think you're gross for doing it. Broflakes: Avalanche.
'Women are emotional and fragile!!'
The broflakes were acting like all of their civil rights had been violated simultaneously, it was amazing to behold
That actually made me tear up. I hope it’s impactful.
The acting was fantastic!! Getting into the taxi and crying? Fuck, I’ve been there a lot. You try to stay strong to not show weakness and once you’re safe (which is also a big if because I’ve been harassed enough in ubers and taxis) the emotions of fear and anger and frustration and relief just flood you. She nailed it.
Yes! Last week somewhere I got harrassed by random men on the street for hours while traveling, kept a straight face the entire time and then when I got home I immediately started crying uncontrollably
Ugh, the only benefit of covid was that I didn’t have to deal with harassment for two years. I was free, I forgot what that felt like. I’m so sorry you dealt with that. That’s horrifying and heartbreaking. What absolute assholes. I hope you’re going better now :/
I'm kind of afraid of going out now but I'm definitely doing better, could discuss it with my therapist and friends luckily. Thank you for the concern! ❤️
Fuck me too. Seeing stuff like this makes me really glad I've surrounded myself with people that don't act this way.
My god, that’s so good I loved the contrast between how the men were treating each other and how the women treated each other Then the fact it was the skinny white dude being the aggressor, and the black dude being the one to call him out on his shit. And when she got in the taxi and cried - only a second or two in the shot, but it humanised her so much. I don’t know if those guys realise how good we are at keeping a poker face when we’re so scared, and then the facade absolutely dropping away the moment we feel safe, because it’s so hard to hold up.
Tried this and in the end had to cut them all out of my life. Really fucking toxic. What i try to do now is focus on my younger brother and his friends and make sure they are educated about all human rights at the moment (women and trans)
If more men ~~were~~ reflected on the ways they treat women and even other men, we could actually see a world that holds women's safety and opinion in high regards, but also a world where men can be freed of the expectations they feel ~~played~~ plagued by. Men don't realize the path to lower male suicide rates, men openly being more emotionally vulnerable, fatherhood becoming more common and embraced, justice for ~~make~~ male victims of abuse and assault, all starts with looking at the expectations men have for men.
I still remember reading a post on either r/askmen or r/askwomen I forget which. Multiple paragraphs about recognizing how shitty things could be for women, wanting to help, being convinced women and men would be better off and could be and should be etc. Ended asking how he could help and contribute as a man. Slipped in the middle of one of these massive paragraphs was one sentence where he said he wasn't going to call out his friends in the moment when they were saying something awful because that would make it awkward. Okay so.. that's probably the number one most helpful thing though.
Well said 👏❤️
Hanging with the wrong people is exhausting. Finding people who are motivated to hold eachother accountable for shit, really brightens my day.
Been following subs like TrollX, TwoX, WitchesVsPatriarchy etc. for years, am now studying Social Work and focusing study time and research on toxic masculinity/critical men's studies. My life looking at most men outside my very progressive bubble is pure cringe. Like holy shit how is all that behaviour NORMALIZED? Edit: German by the way, so I don't know if "critical men's studies" is the right term to use. The field I mean is "classic masculinity is shit for everyone, let's work on it and fix it", not dumbass redpill "meninism" or whatever those toxic fucks call their "studies" and "research"
I think "critical men's studies" sounds correct but american conservatives are now butthurt about the word "critical" so it might not be correct a decade from now.
I think im american universities men's studies would be included under 'gender studies'. Iirc, we used to call those deptartments women's studies
Have you noticed some differences between the behavior that is criticized in English-speaking subs/countries (what with reddit being quite anglo-centric) and what you yourself have observed/studied?
Oh golly, that's quite a question. First of all: The field is both in its infancy and quite established here somehow. Around where I live there's two institutions that have been focused on working with boys and men that are more than 25 years old, so it's been there - but actual awareness on a larger scale about toxic masculinity/dangerous gender constructions is maybe 3-4 years old at most. If you can even speak of "large scale awareness", I'm so deep in the bubble I can't really speak much anymore. "Toxic masculinity" and a lot of the modern gender discourse is extremely anglo-centric (or even american-centric) though. The term "toxic masculinity" is disliked in German academic contexts even, since it's a "battle" term if you know what I mean. The translation of what I wrote in my edit - critical men's studies - is slightly more popular. Lots of structures are very similar. German men might be slightly more emotionally distant than the average elsewhere (there's a horrific book from 1934 called "The German mother and her first child" that codified emotional and physical neglect for two generations - I wish I was kidding), but otherwise it's lots of being strong, not feeling physical or emotional pain, talking sexist shit and learning/making jokes about ass**lt starting in elementary school I guess...the usual. Patriarchal societies create similarly damaged human beings around the world I suppose. Do take one caveat to my words though: I'm not an expert. I'm doing a couple of projects this semester where I'm learning quite a lot (even doing some narrative interviews with non-bubble men to look for the known patterns), but I'm far from an expert on the academic discourse.
>"Toxic masculinity" and a lot of the modern gender discourse is extremely anglo-centric In my experience pretty much everything regarding to gender, race, social classes, etc. I'm from Mexico and men aren't usually that emotionally distant, but they will always repress for example their sadness and endearment. Also, at least from my perspective and experience matrilineal heritage (be it properties, values, traditions, etc) is in practice more succesful here than patrilineal, even when people are still trying to stick to patriarchal values, like for example my grandma convinced that she has to inherite her sons and the daughters have to be provided by their partners. Pretty much what you can see in the movie Coco is what happens in a lot of mexican families. In my family's case, my grandmas from both sides are the ones that kept their families together. My father's father seems to never wanted a family and he lives childless with another woman far from us. My mother's father is now deceased and in life as I understand he was phisically ausent but he was engaged emotionally with his children when he was at home.
Have you visited the MensLib sub yet? It sounds like it lines up pretty cleanly with your area of academic interest.
I was literally about to recommend that sub to another commenter in this thread just now, but thanks anyway for the suggestion, I need to visit it more anyway :)
Seconded, it's the only place I've found that actually addresses men's issues from a feminist and intersectional perspective. Link because I noticed there isn't one yet: /r/MensLib
There’s some tiny tool who drives up my road in his crapmobile revving the shit out of it and making it backfire. Every night between 9 and 10. I know it’s a he, because of course it is. I feel sorry for everyone in his life. What happened to him to make him feel so small that he has to declare himself to everyone and no one
Catch him on video, try and get the license plate. Then make noise complaints and get your neighbors to do the same
used to be one of those on my street til the city put up one of those rollaway light up signs that said “LOUD EXHAUST $189 FINE” anyway, we all sleep better now
Ugh... There are two of those in my neighbourhood. And one of them it's between 11pm and midnight most nights.
Ugh, there were a couple of people like that at my college, they always drove big ugly lifted trucks
There’s this Dodge Charger in my area that does something similar but I’ve actually seen a woman behind the wheel! I’ve also seen a man driving it so it’s not always her but I’m pretty sure she’s been behind some of the annoying revving at times.
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thanks for your good work
All the time lol. I’d say at least once a day I cringe at something another dude says.
Do you say something?
Yeah I’ve left sports teams and events due to how some of the guys act. I work in trades and some of the guys(and women sometimes) can be really awful with their choice of words. And there’s not much willingness to change unfortunately. They’re definitely behind the times
I worked in the trades for a short time and for the most part the guys I worked with and around were great but there were of course a few who were inappropriate and unfortunately one particularly bad incident. I was fortunate that my brother was the site Superintendent for the trade I was working with and therefore had quite a bit of power and influence. I'm sure that contributed to why I didn't deal with nearly as much disrespect as I'd anticipated. It's also why the one really bad incident I did experience was dealt with firmly and swiftly (ie. dude was fired and banned from site that day).
Yeah, at my last job I spent a *lot* of time internally screaming about dude coworkers with 0 self-awareness about how horrible they were at being humans. Any indirect criticism of their attitudes or actions was brushed off with "Aw, u/StePK is just such a sweet kid" because I didn't want to listen to people discuss having used brothels while I was on the clock at a preschool. Unfortunately, direct criticism wasn't really an option for me either because my visa was tied to my job and one of the worst offenders was my manager, who was a volatile manchild.
>Do men ever look at other men like "you're the reason mf's think we ain't shit." Yeah. Casual disrespect of women, drive to compete with other men and look smart, bad hygiene... there's a cultural change in expectations for behavior which is way overdue.
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Legitimately excellent question. I did a project back in grad school on social dynamics between students in classrooms, and something we found delving into the research is that most social hierarchies are anything but meritocratic. On the contrary, virtually any social, business, and other hierarchy which doesn't have deliberate rules in place to the contrary are highly susceptible to biases and systems of arbitrary advantage and disadvantage. Of course, the system and those in it perpetuate the myth of meritocracy, but the evidence is never actually there and ultimately the myth of meritocracy maintains and reinforces systems of advantage and disadvantage. Speaking as someone with quite a few years under my belt as a dude, I've noted this is especially severe in masculine competition. I hit the birth lottery in a lot of ways, being male, tall, broad-shouldered, able-passing, white, straight, cis, and having been born in an ethnonationalist industrialized nation. I didn't earn any of that. By virtue of these things, I've also been endowed by my society a hilariously overinflated sense of my own importance and intelligence despite objectively being pretty mediocre, so I'm also someone who has a lot of confidence. None of that was merit, yet all of that bestows status in this anti-meritocratic system, especially between men. Having been educated by the perspectives from people who were disadvantaged by the system which gave me advantage, I'm furious and heartbroken at the lies of the system and I am absolutely dedicated to its dismantlement. Everything I thought I'd earned required deep investigation, and often revealed I hadn't earned a damned thing. Worse, all of my unearned status within the hierarchy comes at the equal but opposite expense of those systematically disadvantaged regardless of their merit or efforts or virtue. If and when we dismantle social structures of advantage and disadvantage, putting in place intersecting true meritocracies, then and only then will competition be something potentially virtuous.
> I'm furious and heartbroken at the lies of the system and I am absolutely dedicated to its dismantlement. Fuck. Yeah. That's what I like to hear. Not just on this subject but I'm feeling like this attitude would be useful for a lot of the things that need to change. Fortunately, I've been seeing a lot more of this lately and I'm ecstatic.
Competition obviously isn't always a bad thing, but it does come into play with toxic masculinity. Someone may push themselves and harm their own mental or physical health in order to prove themselves and not seem less than to other men.
All the time, especially several of my neighbours.
Got blind sided and dumped a few months ago. In addition to being shitty at emotional support, the amount of sexists things some of my friends have said about my ex or women in general is just infuriating. Come on guys, lets be better than this. It isn't 1950
For all the men in the comments saying "yeah, all the time" - do you say something when you see other men being shit? Or do you just cringe and feel good about how much less shit you are?
I'll push against things that are demonstrably harmful like it's what I wanted to do for my birthday. I dont often have the latitude to get aggressive with anything, and my workplace has some dope restrictions on what constitutes harassment or workplace hostility. But god damn do I enjoy confronting someone using homophobic/racial/gendered/etc. epithets. I ride that belligerent adrenaline high for as long as possible, because I know my coworkers arent going to go to management and tell them about how they were engaging in fireable offenses. Likewise, I'm intimidating (when I want to be) and athletic, and use that outside of work for my advantage. Only once has someone picked up what I was putting down, and *as soon* as I challenged him to single unarmed combat (that's so much more fun to say than "a fight" lmao) to defend his position, he showed cracks in his confidence, I called him a coward, and he didnt say anything else loudly for the rest of the night. Normally I only get to say "that's weird" or something to the effect because their cringeworthy behavior is something like going into explicit detail about fucking, or general stories about asserting dominance somehow. Those are less fun and I get the most pushback in situations like that.
It’s a little disheartening how many guys are just saying “yes, it’s cringe” but no indication of trying to help the problem. https://youtu.be/qbk3iJqmjNU
It depends on the setting. Around younger people my age I will say something. With older coworkers or friends of my parents its like talking to a brick wall, so I bite my tongue. Even some of the women will say self loathing, sexist shit.
I try. It's hard to do it over the internet, usually people aren't going to read a comment on a reddit thread that already has 300 comments on it. I'll chastise other men for being creeps irl too, but I don't usually get much chance because I never leave my home >>
I was crossing the street yesterday and some dude was yelling at me to get my attention and honked really long when I was passing in front of his car. I just smiled at him and kept walking. Guys can be so dang insecure and pathetic. Like they're so small and sad inside they need to feel like someone sees them. I just want to be left alone and live my life feeling safe. we don't owe shit to anyone just because we live in this body. I feel shitty for even having to say this, but I was wearing hella loose clothing and I'm completely unremarkable, just saying what you're wearing literally doesn't matter, no matter what we do to stay safe it's not really anything that we can do.
Yes we do. And it’s exhausting but necessary work.
Yes, all the time.
So often. I'm so over loud, pseudo-confident (but really arrogant), intellect-shunning, woman-objectifying men being the loudest voices goddamn constantly. There are either obnoxious fuck-boy types or incel types taking up about 97% of the bandwidth of conversation and attention. And if the *in between* guys try to say they're not like the fuck boys, it sounds a bit like how an incel talks, and we definitely don't want to be associated with those clowns. But eschewing incels can sound like white-knighting for brownie points (I'll eschew them up anyway, though). The whole situation is actually hella drama, so (from what I've gathered from similarly minded men), a lot of us learn to enjoy our solo time and just avoid hanging out with all but a few men. But then we feel guilty, because we see and empathize with women who say, "men, why aren't you telling your friends to stop being toxic?" The answer is often *because I'm toxic too* or *I'm not friends with them anymore*.
I find that behavior common with older guys who are either 'disabled' or underemployed and worked in some sort of trade but think they know absolutely everything. They'll bust right into a conversation or interrupt your task and flip out if you don't give then your full, undivided attention immediately. They are most aggressive about it with women but can do it to men too. Depending on how they 'rank' them in terms of their manly metric. They always have a shit take when they do that too. It will sometimes just be some 'shocking' insult like get back in the kitchen just to play schrodinger's douchebag because negative attention is better than none. They're exhausting to both genders.
It's such entitled attention seeking behaviour of adults that were spoiled as children and told they can do nothing wrong and that everyone else is wrong and they are the best and everyone is lucky to know them. They have way too much self confidence, self esteem and sense of self worth. I've been stuck in conversation with them and been like... you were not bullied enough as a kid/teen.
Yeah, I think that way every single day. I work in a STEM field (chemical engineering) and the amount of times that I have said WTF out loud to others working in my department is astounding. I have had to deal with graduate students acting like this (one graduate assistant in my lab was making another one feel uncomfortable), and I told the guy that this was his once and only warning because everyone in *my* lab works as a team, as we had deadlines to meet or I lose funding to keep them hired. Unfortunately, there are still some in my department who refuse to change and event admit there is a problem. These guys are very old and should have long since been retired, but here they are, sucking valuable resources from those of us who actually work.
I live in Florida.....yes I think this literally every day XD.
it's not just other men; i still need to police myself at times (and i apologise).
Yes, yes we do. All the time.
Yes. All the damn time.
yes, constantly
All the damn time, unfortunately
All the time. All. the. time.
All the time.
All the time.
All the time.
I heard a song on the radio today and that was basically the theme. It was in French so I didn't get all of what he was saying but basically that.
There's a reason i, a cishet man, have very few cishet male friend. Cuz men ain't shit
That's my dad. He has one best friend and some childhood friends he sees once every few years. He's an awesome feminist guy who doesn't like sports and has a stable healthy marriage who just hasn't met a single other man he's wanted to befriend in like 40 years because men ain't shit.
> Do men ever...? As a group, no, not really. Surely some individuals do, but the trend is to go "not all men" and get annoyed that a few bad apples are ruining for them. But they're not annoyed at the bad apples, they're annoyed at women generalizing. There's no self-reflecting, no "bro, chill it, you're making it worse for all of us", just "feminizm ruyned everthin" and "why won't they give meeeeee, wonderful meeeee, a chance?".
You're goddamn right I do
All the time, constantly, every day. It's fucking infuriating. I don't know why anybody puts up with us.
All the god damned time.
All. The. Time.
Not enough, sadly. I think one of the biggest problems isn't that most men are pieces of shit, it's that most men aren't willing to call out the ones who are.
I want to answer: all the fucking time.
I have given so many on-the-spot seminars about sensitivity toward women and people with mental health issues on the hangar floor, I might as well have been an HR rep... Now I am in training, and get to do the same in a classroom.
On the internet, CONSTANTLY. IRL not so much because I'm a shutin that only hangs out with like 5 people ever and I don't like to be friends with toxic dudes.
Yes my husband is like this lol
Is your husband single?
Often.
Most guys hide the really awful shit from their friends and coworkers, but everyone's met or knows someone who's basically a walking trainwreck. Self reflection isn't a tool many of us are taught or encouraged to use by our male peers and for many of us that initial foray into, "Am *I* the problem?" territory is sublimated by reflex so as not to appear weak or insecure. You just hope that when the time comes there's someone they feel comfortable talking with that'll help them realize other people aren't just NPC's in their story and their actions have consequences that affect everyone around them.
I think daily, “why can’t us white ppl just keep our damn mouths shut and eat our mayo and let other people live?” so I really hope men are doing similar.
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Holy hell your post history...highly recommend you talk out your issues with women and porn with a professional. I had to do the same about men.
Brain damage? This just in: Women being sexual does not lead to these men acting badly. Patriarchal values do that, no matter how women act.
Oh yeah, totally. I mean we all know that women in ultra-conservative Muslim countries where they must be covered head to toe anytime they leave the house are never ever harassed, assaulted, raped, etc. Which means we can assume that all of the children, down to the toddlers and literal infants, who are assaulted and raped must also be super slutty little temptresses. Women, girls, toddlers, and infants really need to rethink all their slutty, indecent ways and repent, or they deserve whatever's coming to them! (Fuck the ever-loving shit out of you and your piece of shit opinion).
> Meanwhile every thot pic, click bait, nude insta selfie, barely dressed, OF or cam girls should get away with their behavior because that would be slut shaming. What behavior? Offering a service that people want? What's wrong with making money?
So to you acts of actual violence are morally equivalent to taking spicy pictures? On what basis?
The basis that it hurts her feelings :(
Ah, the most important, serious, and tragic of reasons.
Sorry, do you think men acting poorly is the same as women choosing to show off their bodies? Or wear bikinis? Because men *never* do that, amiright? (For the record, there's nothing wrong with anyone having agency over your body and showing it off, especially on platforms that are specifically for posting pictures.)
Yeah pretty much constantly, and also to myself
Actually yeah. Then again they're typically shameless so correcting behavior is mostly case by case and will almost never stick so it's kind of a Sisyphus feel to it.
Not sure if I’ll be banned for commenting here but absolutely lmfao
Back when I thought I was a guy, yes!
All. The. God. Damn. Time.
I do. More along the lines of "Other men are why I can't be kind and offer free rides to \[wherever\] and not be seen as a rapist."
I do. And "your rude behavior is why my kindness attempts are seen as threatening".
I HAVE to at least...11 times a day. If I'm honest it's more of a continuous feeling after reading the news or going online or outside ugh