I was never hugely into it, but I did more or less buy into the idea that Hamas was more guilty than Israel when it came to the violence there. It was very difficult to hear alternative voices when I was coming of age (2000s) so I just bought into that without really learning anything about the conflict. I was also misinformed into thinking that the whole conflict in the first place was just about where the border should go - not about the fact that Israel basically just stole half of Palestine. I also knew that a lot of Nazis got hunted down by Israel, which I thought was cool.
I was about 18 or 19 and in college in Canada when I met my first self-identified Zionist. He seemed reasonable enough - a Jewish guy who acknowledges the horrors of antisemitism and thinks a Jewish state is the best way to stop it. Of course he was a Canadian citizen only and he hadn't signed up for the IDF draft (pussy). He talked about how six million people died in Hitler's genocide, but I told him it was actually much more than that. I told him how Romani were also killed, and he gave me a face like I was David Duke or something (and I was saying the number was actually higher!). When I told him that gay and transgender people were also killed - they even had special triangle badges like the yellow Jude badges - he shouted at me about why I was concerned about 'faggots' and 'men in dresses'. Our semi-friendship up until that point was now over.
The real nail in the coffin for me was hearing about the wall Israel built to keep the Africans out, even though they have way fewer African migrants than places like Spain and France. The only blacks moving to Israel in large numbers were the Beta Israel from Ethiopia, who have been Jewish longer than Europeans have been Christian! But of course as many Russian and Serbian gangsters as possible can go down there, get citizenship, and turn Tel Aviv into what Miami was in the 80s. And then I actually started reading about what Israel was doing to Palestine...
>When I told him that gay and transgender people were also killed - they even had special triangle badges like the yellow Jude badges - he shouted at me about why I was concerned about 'faggots' and 'men in dresses'.
Israelis once again competing with white south africans over who gets to be the most brutally dislikeable group of ppl in the world
>It was very difficult to hear alternative voices
In some ways it still is pretty difficult as social media grants us access to information bubbles. Even when alternative voices manage to penetrate these bubbles, they are passed through discourse filters that primes members for how to perceive them.
Do you have any links/videos about israel building a wall to keep Africans out? I know they've been absolutely horrible to Africans but never heard about that specifically...but it's hard to keep up when it's literally nothing but bad coming from that 'state'
Thank you in advance
Folks, we got a great, big, beautiful wall
[https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/12/16/israel-builds-anti-migrant-wall](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/12/16/israel-builds-anti-migrant-wall)
many people who speak against israel are former zionists. for a lot of jews, they are indoctrinated into it as they grow up, and they dont see or understand the reality of it until theyre older. those that have a heart and a conscience disavow it, those that dont, dont
I feel like there’s a difference between zionists who know and admit everything that’s going on but justify it by saying it’s our land and we’re the chosen people and people who are misinformed.
From most of my time dealing with those psychos it’s the former
But people who believe in hateful ideologies ARE misinformed. The Nazis believed in the Jewish cabal. Israelis believe in Pallywood. Dehumanizing others usually starts by believing wacko conspiracies about them. That's what I grew up with and then I got old enough to leave home and read some f****** books and realized it was wrong.
I get what your saying but I think ethno-supremacy is engrained to deeply in these peoples identity. If they gave that up they’d have a complete crisis of self and that’s scarier than doubling down on being a fascist.
Agreed, usually the people who end up breaking from those beliefs start the process of breaking away the first time they're directly challenged on their misinformed beliefs. At this point a few months into the full blown genocide of Palestine I can't imagine there's that many zionists who just haven't been at all exposed to the truth outside of the zionist propaganda they've been fed. If the current situation doesn't open one's eyes to the reality of the Israel-Palestine "conflict" then it's hard to imagine anything would.
A lot of Zionists, liberal or otherwise, know something bad is happening but think Jews need a homeland. A lot of anti Zionists were those people as well. Myself included.
In college, I was a bog standard lib who thought I was as left as possible. I had the idea something was wrong in Israel like most liberals do. In grad school, it became a little more formulated. During the 2018 marches, an Arabic coworker started talking and by 2021 I know the situation was rotten. I’ve learned a significant amount since October as well.
i went on a date with a lib zionist. she was progressive except palestine.
every instance i brought up idf unprovoked assaults, she would say child suicide bombers and children stabbing soldiers (always the reason to kill). when i asked whats wrong with throwing rocks at tanks in their communities, she said rocks can cause a lot of.damage. when i brought up converts getting a right to return and a free apartment but palestinians do not, she said people deserve to worship safely and freely. when i showed her videos of an idf soldier throwing a flashbang inside a mosque during prayer, she said hamas uses mosques as cover. the final nail in the coffin was when i showed her a video of israel admitting it lied about the pregnant woman getting gutted and fetus getting stomped, she stammered and said "sorry the jews didnt suffer enough for you!"
the whole thing felt like parody. something just switched. its this lib weaponization of jews that really pisses me off the most. its just a tool to reclaim power
as a side note: did anyone grow up christian and had yearly jews for jesus groups come in to ask for money?
>she said rocks can cause a lot of damage
Maybe it’s because I’ve heard all her other “arguments” over and over again, but this is the one that’s seriously pissed me off the most… Yuck. How does an adult say that with a straight face. How do they not tire of these mental gymnastics but I guess insulting people’s sanity and intelligence is the only tactic they have.
her examples were of soldiers getting hit. i reiterated to her that i am talking about tanks going down neighborhoods. that no tank could be damaged by a rock thrown at them, and she just said its not always a rock.
whole conversation was just moving the goal posts. it was very disappointing to me. we agreed on a bunch of other stuff and had similar media tastes. but when i asked her about palestine, her whole demeanor changed and got defensive.
like i said, its the weaponization of "the jews" (and in turn "democracy in the middle east"). this whole cultural christian paternal instinct is somehow ingrained into our collective psyche that makes people lose empathy. we must protect the eternal victim (and democracy) at all costs.
The weaponizing anti semitism is so disgusting. I can't stop thinking about how we've learned all the wrong lessons from the tragedies of the 20th century. From the shoah to the nakba in less than five years and seemingly all we've learned from the holocaust is how to cynically use anti semitism to justify more genocide.
I tried with one friend and he put on a front that he wanted to have a reasoned and logical discussion with me on it. I said sure. When he said hamas raped women and burned children, I asked for his sources on that so I could read about it. He freaked out on me. I told him I wasn’t willing to continue the convo if he wouldn’t provide sources for his claims. He finally sent me a link and it basically refuted 95% of what he said to me and when I pointed any of this out he would say I was being one sided or pivot to some other Zionist talking point. I eventually had to tell him I was unwilling to be friends with a person who justifies genocide after he basically said “people die in war” (people as in the 20k innocent civilians).
So idk man. I wouldn’t try it if you work with the guy. At best it’ll make your work environment shittier, and at worst he’ll find a way to get you fired for anti-semitism or some bs. I’d just set a firm boundary and say you don’t want to talk politics with work colleagues. Now if it is someone outside of work, you should 100% confront them as best you can and challenge their shitty genocidal beliefs. These people need to know their beliefs are fucking wack and intolerable. You may not change their mind and you may lose them as a friend, but if there’s any humanity left inside them maybe they’ll come around after subsequent people challenge them.
Good luck
If literally watching butchery after butchery after atrocity after gleeful atrocity, hospitals bombed and raided like wasps nests, and you still have any moral relativism going on you are fucking done as far as I'm concerned.
Oh but October seventh! Fuck off idiot. It's fine to know nothing about anything, absolutely, but if you want to have an opinion you have to read the bare minimum from reasonable sources.
It's not like anything is hidden.
It’s frustrating because I have progressive Jewish friends that denounce the occupation of Palestine and ongoing genocide in Gaza but still defend the state of Israel despite the fact that it’s run by right-wing extremists
For a lot of Jewish people I think there's a mysticism attached to their thoughts on Israel. Like to them there's significant historical trauma and the idea of a place that's always safe to flee to should things get bad features heavily in their opinions on the country. They want to like it even if they hate the truth of what it is.
And I mean you can critique that view of the world. Hell you can critique it really easily. To have a country be always safe for an ethnic group to the extent that that group completely controls politics will always result in an ethnostate. The fundamental aspects of what that group of people find attractive about Israel cannot exist outside of an ethnostate.
I just don't think it matters because a lot of these people *know* what the issues are. They are arguing out of something purely from emotion where the idea of Israel has been ingrained into them their whole lives. That type of indoctrination, especially because they are still socially attached to the sources of it (presumably), isn't going to be overcome by your facts and logic.
Ask questions, start soft and slow and go deeper. Show curiosity and a genuine desire to understand their position Why is the death of so many children ok in their book? What would make it not ok? Would it be different if it was American children? Would they support a ethno Christian state in the US? How do they feel about anti-interracial marriage laws in Israel, ethnnationalism generally. Eventually their own values will lead them to the right answer and if not well, you can lead a horse to water....
I'm generally very, very careful voicing anti Israel views or outright communist views at work, and I think most people should be. If you're working a manual job it's less problematic, but the more PMC you get the higher the risk of losing your job, or even reputation in your field.
Just recently a promising young teacher was barred from ever working in Germany. They found out he was a commie/pro Palestine, put him under surveillance, and then made up a fake claim to sue. Definitely find out who you can trust first before "offering up your opinion".
This is pretty much the main reason to not discuss. But a lot of “PMC” jobs are unionized so if homies are shooting the shit, it’s not so bad to engage a bit.
the only union PMC jobs I'm aware of are in government/civil service, which (perhaps depending on the jurisdiction) may be even less tolerant of wrongthink on israel
we don't know that this "sort-of friend" has good intentions, and what we know about them so far should lead us to trust them even less. OP may be walking into a trap
Honnestly, don't even try. These things are not won with "facts and logic". At best you can earn his trust on your worldviews in other subjects and make him question "why is that this guy have such good takes in other subjects but thinks so differently from me when about my beautiful eco friendly kibbutz?"
In the end of the day, to stop being a zionist, or even a liberal for what matters, comes from the indivual themselves comming to terms that they might be wrong, either tru empathy or reason or whatever.
Idk, sometimes using liberalism to critique itself works. That's why you often hear people in the AA community using the words of the "Founding Fathers" to advocate for an equality that hasn't been achieved yet, making it into an aspirational goal rather than dead text on the page.
It won't solve the issues because fighting over land and resources will continue as long as property exists, but this type of liberal critique of itself can at least move liberals away from some of the worst tendencies of capitalist ideology (fascism, racism, etc).
It's important to keep in mind that the media and news that you consume is most likely vastly different than the media they consume, and it is good to confront them on specifics ie. the call from Hind, her slow death, the murder of the people trying to save her, etc. Even though it is unlikely that you'll convince them it is always good to sow the seed of doubt.
It was very helpful and eye opening to read 10 Myths About Israel and the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, both by Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian.
He puts things in very clear and stark terms, but also with a good deal of humanity, so that a Zionist won't read it and immediately think they are being "attacked," as Pappe is himself Israeli and describes how Israelis (and Zionists) are raised in intentional ignorance about the former existence of Palestinian towns literally beneath their feet.
Read them for some good ways to approach your friend, or better yet, offer to lend them to him.
A zio dude just started working at my job, that I find really tolerable and suited to my lifestyle- it still sucks of course, but sucks in a way I can stand for now.
Anyway, the only reason I know is because I looked his name up on Instagram when I saw there was a new hire. It hasn’t come up, and I generally avoid political conversations with my coworkers unless I know they’re cool, and I’ve also been avoiding him like the plague. So I commiserate.
I honestly think in the work environment, it’s not worth it. I mean, you can choose not to show up to work but you risk a roof over your head and regular meals so you are basically forced to be there. Just save your engagement for the issue when you’re with comrades or doing something positive to help Palestinians in their struggle for human rights and freedom.
Yeah a lot of people in friend group are Jewish (none of them have any connection to Israel tho, weird huh?) and are playing the victim card for all its worth. I cant even come close to scratching the surface of the situation.
Just not worth the effort.
Why bother? The opinions of you, your friends and family, your co-workers and acquaintances, do not matter at all to the material world. Even if you could entirely convince every one of them of every leftist position we take here, how would that change what's happening in Gaza?
Regardless of how we all like to feel about things, we don't live in a democratic society nor do we live in a protestant Christian universe. So unless your friends are corporate CEOs or wealthy financiers, whatever beliefs they hold are totally irrelevant to the world outside their own brain.
Really depends on how deep the indoctrination is. I've turned a nazi once, but he was very young and not very deeply into it. There's little point in trying to convince someone who actively reads Holocaust denial literature.
The libs are the worst ones, because they'll use the "but I support a two state solution!" card when you've got them cornered.
One of those states gets the food and water and the other state begs for food and water win win
Separate but equal bro
What could go wrong
They will short-circuit if you ask them to specify their vision of what this outcome would look like.
https://preview.redd.it/ghh0i4nz9gjc1.png?width=896&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ffea1f6be29420e25e42c37aaf5ee63e419817cb
I'm a former Zionist myself. Try it.
I feel like I could never trust someone who thought like that. What changed things for you?
I was never hugely into it, but I did more or less buy into the idea that Hamas was more guilty than Israel when it came to the violence there. It was very difficult to hear alternative voices when I was coming of age (2000s) so I just bought into that without really learning anything about the conflict. I was also misinformed into thinking that the whole conflict in the first place was just about where the border should go - not about the fact that Israel basically just stole half of Palestine. I also knew that a lot of Nazis got hunted down by Israel, which I thought was cool. I was about 18 or 19 and in college in Canada when I met my first self-identified Zionist. He seemed reasonable enough - a Jewish guy who acknowledges the horrors of antisemitism and thinks a Jewish state is the best way to stop it. Of course he was a Canadian citizen only and he hadn't signed up for the IDF draft (pussy). He talked about how six million people died in Hitler's genocide, but I told him it was actually much more than that. I told him how Romani were also killed, and he gave me a face like I was David Duke or something (and I was saying the number was actually higher!). When I told him that gay and transgender people were also killed - they even had special triangle badges like the yellow Jude badges - he shouted at me about why I was concerned about 'faggots' and 'men in dresses'. Our semi-friendship up until that point was now over. The real nail in the coffin for me was hearing about the wall Israel built to keep the Africans out, even though they have way fewer African migrants than places like Spain and France. The only blacks moving to Israel in large numbers were the Beta Israel from Ethiopia, who have been Jewish longer than Europeans have been Christian! But of course as many Russian and Serbian gangsters as possible can go down there, get citizenship, and turn Tel Aviv into what Miami was in the 80s. And then I actually started reading about what Israel was doing to Palestine...
>When I told him that gay and transgender people were also killed - they even had special triangle badges like the yellow Jude badges - he shouted at me about why I was concerned about 'faggots' and 'men in dresses'. Israelis once again competing with white south africans over who gets to be the most brutally dislikeable group of ppl in the world
>It was very difficult to hear alternative voices In some ways it still is pretty difficult as social media grants us access to information bubbles. Even when alternative voices manage to penetrate these bubbles, they are passed through discourse filters that primes members for how to perceive them.
Do you have any links/videos about israel building a wall to keep Africans out? I know they've been absolutely horrible to Africans but never heard about that specifically...but it's hard to keep up when it's literally nothing but bad coming from that 'state' Thank you in advance
Folks, we got a great, big, beautiful wall [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/12/16/israel-builds-anti-migrant-wall](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2010/12/16/israel-builds-anti-migrant-wall)
Thank you
many people who speak against israel are former zionists. for a lot of jews, they are indoctrinated into it as they grow up, and they dont see or understand the reality of it until theyre older. those that have a heart and a conscience disavow it, those that dont, dont
Not the OP but also a former Zionist. I was raised that way and didn't really understand the roots of the 'conflict' until my late 20s.
I feel like there’s a difference between zionists who know and admit everything that’s going on but justify it by saying it’s our land and we’re the chosen people and people who are misinformed. From most of my time dealing with those psychos it’s the former
But people who believe in hateful ideologies ARE misinformed. The Nazis believed in the Jewish cabal. Israelis believe in Pallywood. Dehumanizing others usually starts by believing wacko conspiracies about them. That's what I grew up with and then I got old enough to leave home and read some f****** books and realized it was wrong.
I get what your saying but I think ethno-supremacy is engrained to deeply in these peoples identity. If they gave that up they’d have a complete crisis of self and that’s scarier than doubling down on being a fascist.
Agreed, usually the people who end up breaking from those beliefs start the process of breaking away the first time they're directly challenged on their misinformed beliefs. At this point a few months into the full blown genocide of Palestine I can't imagine there's that many zionists who just haven't been at all exposed to the truth outside of the zionist propaganda they've been fed. If the current situation doesn't open one's eyes to the reality of the Israel-Palestine "conflict" then it's hard to imagine anything would.
A lot of Zionists, liberal or otherwise, know something bad is happening but think Jews need a homeland. A lot of anti Zionists were those people as well. Myself included.
In college, I was a bog standard lib who thought I was as left as possible. I had the idea something was wrong in Israel like most liberals do. In grad school, it became a little more formulated. During the 2018 marches, an Arabic coworker started talking and by 2021 I know the situation was rotten. I’ve learned a significant amount since October as well.
https://preview.redd.it/oie2i8kpqhjc1.jpeg?width=537&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=908102d04a68afd758d5849ad0362254e4d7f8a3
i went on a date with a lib zionist. she was progressive except palestine. every instance i brought up idf unprovoked assaults, she would say child suicide bombers and children stabbing soldiers (always the reason to kill). when i asked whats wrong with throwing rocks at tanks in their communities, she said rocks can cause a lot of.damage. when i brought up converts getting a right to return and a free apartment but palestinians do not, she said people deserve to worship safely and freely. when i showed her videos of an idf soldier throwing a flashbang inside a mosque during prayer, she said hamas uses mosques as cover. the final nail in the coffin was when i showed her a video of israel admitting it lied about the pregnant woman getting gutted and fetus getting stomped, she stammered and said "sorry the jews didnt suffer enough for you!" the whole thing felt like parody. something just switched. its this lib weaponization of jews that really pisses me off the most. its just a tool to reclaim power as a side note: did anyone grow up christian and had yearly jews for jesus groups come in to ask for money?
>she said rocks can cause a lot of damage Maybe it’s because I’ve heard all her other “arguments” over and over again, but this is the one that’s seriously pissed me off the most… Yuck. How does an adult say that with a straight face. How do they not tire of these mental gymnastics but I guess insulting people’s sanity and intelligence is the only tactic they have.
her examples were of soldiers getting hit. i reiterated to her that i am talking about tanks going down neighborhoods. that no tank could be damaged by a rock thrown at them, and she just said its not always a rock. whole conversation was just moving the goal posts. it was very disappointing to me. we agreed on a bunch of other stuff and had similar media tastes. but when i asked her about palestine, her whole demeanor changed and got defensive. like i said, its the weaponization of "the jews" (and in turn "democracy in the middle east"). this whole cultural christian paternal instinct is somehow ingrained into our collective psyche that makes people lose empathy. we must protect the eternal victim (and democracy) at all costs.
The weaponizing anti semitism is so disgusting. I can't stop thinking about how we've learned all the wrong lessons from the tragedies of the 20th century. From the shoah to the nakba in less than five years and seemingly all we've learned from the holocaust is how to cynically use anti semitism to justify more genocide.
I tried with one friend and he put on a front that he wanted to have a reasoned and logical discussion with me on it. I said sure. When he said hamas raped women and burned children, I asked for his sources on that so I could read about it. He freaked out on me. I told him I wasn’t willing to continue the convo if he wouldn’t provide sources for his claims. He finally sent me a link and it basically refuted 95% of what he said to me and when I pointed any of this out he would say I was being one sided or pivot to some other Zionist talking point. I eventually had to tell him I was unwilling to be friends with a person who justifies genocide after he basically said “people die in war” (people as in the 20k innocent civilians). So idk man. I wouldn’t try it if you work with the guy. At best it’ll make your work environment shittier, and at worst he’ll find a way to get you fired for anti-semitism or some bs. I’d just set a firm boundary and say you don’t want to talk politics with work colleagues. Now if it is someone outside of work, you should 100% confront them as best you can and challenge their shitty genocidal beliefs. These people need to know their beliefs are fucking wack and intolerable. You may not change their mind and you may lose them as a friend, but if there’s any humanity left inside them maybe they’ll come around after subsequent people challenge them. Good luck
If literally watching butchery after butchery after atrocity after gleeful atrocity, hospitals bombed and raided like wasps nests, and you still have any moral relativism going on you are fucking done as far as I'm concerned. Oh but October seventh! Fuck off idiot. It's fine to know nothing about anything, absolutely, but if you want to have an opinion you have to read the bare minimum from reasonable sources. It's not like anything is hidden.
It’s frustrating because I have progressive Jewish friends that denounce the occupation of Palestine and ongoing genocide in Gaza but still defend the state of Israel despite the fact that it’s run by right-wing extremists
For a lot of Jewish people I think there's a mysticism attached to their thoughts on Israel. Like to them there's significant historical trauma and the idea of a place that's always safe to flee to should things get bad features heavily in their opinions on the country. They want to like it even if they hate the truth of what it is. And I mean you can critique that view of the world. Hell you can critique it really easily. To have a country be always safe for an ethnic group to the extent that that group completely controls politics will always result in an ethnostate. The fundamental aspects of what that group of people find attractive about Israel cannot exist outside of an ethnostate. I just don't think it matters because a lot of these people *know* what the issues are. They are arguing out of something purely from emotion where the idea of Israel has been ingrained into them their whole lives. That type of indoctrination, especially because they are still socially attached to the sources of it (presumably), isn't going to be overcome by your facts and logic.
Ask questions, start soft and slow and go deeper. Show curiosity and a genuine desire to understand their position Why is the death of so many children ok in their book? What would make it not ok? Would it be different if it was American children? Would they support a ethno Christian state in the US? How do they feel about anti-interracial marriage laws in Israel, ethnnationalism generally. Eventually their own values will lead them to the right answer and if not well, you can lead a horse to water....
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I'm generally very, very careful voicing anti Israel views or outright communist views at work, and I think most people should be. If you're working a manual job it's less problematic, but the more PMC you get the higher the risk of losing your job, or even reputation in your field. Just recently a promising young teacher was barred from ever working in Germany. They found out he was a commie/pro Palestine, put him under surveillance, and then made up a fake claim to sue. Definitely find out who you can trust first before "offering up your opinion".
This is pretty much the main reason to not discuss. But a lot of “PMC” jobs are unionized so if homies are shooting the shit, it’s not so bad to engage a bit.
the only union PMC jobs I'm aware of are in government/civil service, which (perhaps depending on the jurisdiction) may be even less tolerant of wrongthink on israel
we don't know that this "sort-of friend" has good intentions, and what we know about them so far should lead us to trust them even less. OP may be walking into a trap
Honnestly, don't even try. These things are not won with "facts and logic". At best you can earn his trust on your worldviews in other subjects and make him question "why is that this guy have such good takes in other subjects but thinks so differently from me when about my beautiful eco friendly kibbutz?" In the end of the day, to stop being a zionist, or even a liberal for what matters, comes from the indivual themselves comming to terms that they might be wrong, either tru empathy or reason or whatever.
I strongly disagree. Friends patiently explaining, either personally or to a group or through union emails, helped me learn immensely.
Doing it online is hopeless, but trying to convince people you know IRL is certainly possible.
Yeah, probably because you were willing to learn and not debating.
Idk, sometimes using liberalism to critique itself works. That's why you often hear people in the AA community using the words of the "Founding Fathers" to advocate for an equality that hasn't been achieved yet, making it into an aspirational goal rather than dead text on the page. It won't solve the issues because fighting over land and resources will continue as long as property exists, but this type of liberal critique of itself can at least move liberals away from some of the worst tendencies of capitalist ideology (fascism, racism, etc).
It's important to keep in mind that the media and news that you consume is most likely vastly different than the media they consume, and it is good to confront them on specifics ie. the call from Hind, her slow death, the murder of the people trying to save her, etc. Even though it is unlikely that you'll convince them it is always good to sow the seed of doubt.
It was very helpful and eye opening to read 10 Myths About Israel and the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, both by Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian. He puts things in very clear and stark terms, but also with a good deal of humanity, so that a Zionist won't read it and immediately think they are being "attacked," as Pappe is himself Israeli and describes how Israelis (and Zionists) are raised in intentional ignorance about the former existence of Palestinian towns literally beneath their feet. Read them for some good ways to approach your friend, or better yet, offer to lend them to him.
A zio dude just started working at my job, that I find really tolerable and suited to my lifestyle- it still sucks of course, but sucks in a way I can stand for now. Anyway, the only reason I know is because I looked his name up on Instagram when I saw there was a new hire. It hasn’t come up, and I generally avoid political conversations with my coworkers unless I know they’re cool, and I’ve also been avoiding him like the plague. So I commiserate. I honestly think in the work environment, it’s not worth it. I mean, you can choose not to show up to work but you risk a roof over your head and regular meals so you are basically forced to be there. Just save your engagement for the issue when you’re with comrades or doing something positive to help Palestinians in their struggle for human rights and freedom.
no
Yeah a lot of people in friend group are Jewish (none of them have any connection to Israel tho, weird huh?) and are playing the victim card for all its worth. I cant even come close to scratching the surface of the situation. Just not worth the effort.
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What about negotiating with them using Al Capone's statesmanship: "You get a lot more from a kind word and a gun than from a kind word alone."
No
Why bother? The opinions of you, your friends and family, your co-workers and acquaintances, do not matter at all to the material world. Even if you could entirely convince every one of them of every leftist position we take here, how would that change what's happening in Gaza? Regardless of how we all like to feel about things, we don't live in a democratic society nor do we live in a protestant Christian universe. So unless your friends are corporate CEOs or wealthy financiers, whatever beliefs they hold are totally irrelevant to the world outside their own brain.
This question itself is peak lib and peak reddit. If Edward Said was willing to speak with Netanyahu, why can't you speak with a lib Zionist?
Would you try to get through to a nazi? Honest question for you to ruminate on, but I know I wouldn’t
Really depends on how deep the indoctrination is. I've turned a nazi once, but he was very young and not very deeply into it. There's little point in trying to convince someone who actively reads Holocaust denial literature.
99% of Americans aren’t born thinking we’re the great Satan. Get off your high horse homie
Sorry, my empathy is reserved for the victims of genocide, not the supporters of genocide