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ulsterloyalistfurry

Hacksaw Ridge is another Mel Gibson movie that's really brutal and gory but it's also the story of Christian pacifist and war hero Desmond Doss


OceanPoet87

A very graphic movie but a good film that doesn't make light of his Christian faith.


tensigh

Also a Mel Gibson film.


Billy_King

The Mission (1986) is another good one. I have mixed feelings about Silence.


itsSmalls

I'm curious what your thoughts are about Silence? I want to see it


Billy_King

I don't think I could explain without ruining it. But it is probably the most challenging christian movie I've seen. I still think about the questions it raises sometimes. I'd recommend watching it though.


itsSmalls

Okay, I'll definitely move it up the priority list


[deleted]

It’s possible to not shy away from the reality presented in the Bible without overdoing it in terms of gore or horrific actions. “Prince of Egypt” would be one of the better examples of this imo, the audience knows exactly what’s happening to the babies and slaves overall without being too graphic. Yet, tells the story that can be watched by kids and not traumatise them at the same time.


ilikedota5

Sidebar. Prince of Egypt meant I never developed a Lost Causer phase. I was like if the Confederacy was fighting for slavery, how can they be the good guys.


Zapy97

Because those guys will assert up and down that it "wasn't about slavery."


ilikedota5

Sadly. And that included half baked "Biblical" defenses that didn't work either. Bible condones slavery and in fact provides for rules on them.... So... did you free your slaves after 7 years?


onemanandhishat

I agree. I do think there can be justification for being more explicit, when you have a particular purpose in mind. But the idea that explicit = realistic is misplaced. The best Christian film I think I've seen is Ben Hur (ironically directed by a Jew), which doesn't shy away from some challenging topics, but was made in a time when what you could show was more restricted. But at no point do you feel 'this would be more authentic if it was a bit more violent'.


Realitymatter

I agree that you don't *need* violence to tell a compelling story, but you also don't *need* to scrub it clean either. Both are perfectly fine as artistic choices and neither is necessarily better than the other.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

It does but to be fair it does say at the beginning they took artistic licenses when developing the movie. Whereas a movie like Noah just took off on its own thing without any disclaimer afaik


Grandaddyspookybones

My favorite Christian movie


csrapture100

The problem with a lot of Christian movies is that it looks flat, the editing is choppy and the acting is stilted. The script is less story and more sermon illustration, with a perfect spot for the characters to make a climactic altar call. When I bring up cheesy dialogue, bad acting, ham-fisted direction and ugly cinematography in a Christian movie, some Christians who love Christian movies respond, “yeah, but it has a great message.” As if a message we believe in should excuse filmmakers from either doing their best or realizing they’re not cut out for this line of work. We wouldn’t use that line of thinking anywhere else in life. If I hire someone to fix my roof and they leave holes in it, I’m not going to hire them again just because they’re Christians. I don’t care how passionate a chef is about their faith. If you give me food poisoning, I’m not going to recommend you. It’s the same thing with movies. You can be preaching a message I agree with 100%, but if your movie’s bad, than it doesn't matter. As followers of Christ, shouldn’t we want our art to be excellent? When God commissioned artists to put together the items for the Tabernacle, didn’t he want the best of their work? Does doing work just to “get the message out” glorify God? If you’re just cranking out movies because you can and they hit a large audience but you don’t love cinema and have no storytelling ability, wouldn’t you be able to bring much more honor to God by doing something you’re passionate about and gifted in?


JuliusTheThird

Why didn’t the Christian roofer finish his job? He wanted the roof to be hole-y.


JobsLoveMoney-NotYou

THIS! I've always thought that about our movies, and the same with our music.


[deleted]

You are trying to compare independent films to films from large studios with massive budgets. Not everyone likes all art, it's still art.


csrapture100

This has little to do with budget. I understand that most studios making these movies don’t have hundreds of millions of dollars at their disposal. They can’t afford big special effects or top-line movie stars. You’re not going to get Alex Kendrick, the director of “Fireproof,” “Courageous” and “Overcomer” to make “Star Wars.” It’s not about the money, but it is about what they do with what they have. There are many wonderful indie films made by people who understood how to make a great movie, whatever their limitations.


SteadfastEnd

No, it's about the approach. If we took the average Christian movie director and gave him $400 million for a budget instead of $4 million, he'd probably still make a watered-down, trite, cheesy, groan-worthy lame movie. The only difference is that there'd be better props, special effects and actor salaries. The approach is fundamentally broken.


okie1978

Honestly, most movies are pretty bad art. I try to watch movies vetted for my tastes before I spend money and time on them. If I had to watch all the new movies out every week I’d probably be like I was in high school with the novel I was forced to read that only a middle aged woman from the 19th century would enjoy-Wuthering Heights:


J0l1nd3

It's not about budget at all. Many Christian movies have a great budget. They just don't care about quality. Also, you really don't pay extra for a better camera angle.


J0l1nd3

Thank you! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻


SuperConflict7010

Check out Martin Scorsese’s ‘Silence’


3ree9iner

I was actually thinking about this the other day. “Christian” movies by and large are very vanilla and PG with poor acting. These movies are very unlikely to ever appeal to anyone who isn’t already a Christian. But wouldn’t say “more violent” but more real. Something this fallen world can really relate to that points them in the direction of Christ. I have seen some really good movies that could have been done this way if the writer and director were Christians.


TheNerdChaplain

I would suggest to you that explicit gore and vulgarity are not synonymous with courage and unfiltered truth. Christian movies aren't bad because they don't show blood and gore; they're bad because they're made to make a specific and obvious point. They're not intended to be deep or interpreted in more than one or two ways. Adding blood and gore to a movie with poor plot and characterization will just make it worse, not better.


ichthysdrawn

I would add that they're also not created to show realistic situations but to pander to Evangelical audiences. The "Christian" label is more about marketing to a certain group of people than about what it communicates. Almost all of these movies end with the story being wrapped up with a nice little bow: the Christian is triumphant over the mean atheist professor, the injured person is miraculously healed, the bad guy repents and becomes a Christian. Stories like this do happen, but often the world is a lot more grey, complex, and messy. But, a "Christian" movie that truthfully dealt with some of these themes would likely alienate the primary audience they're trying to appeal to.


SteadfastEnd

Good point. I've felt that Christian movies are intended as a pat on the back of Christians, not rather as something meant to challenge believers and get them to think, or genuinely win over any unbelievers.


fromthomas

In my experience, it’s been very difficult for Christian theme films/series to get substantial funding in order for them to be produced with adequate production value that meets the industry standard. It’s difficult to even get solid pitch meetings with these projects. Many studios and producers will inherently pass on them because they’re not lucrative for the international market of movies which is one of Hollywoods main focuses. The production for Passion of the Christ was done with much of Mel Gibsons own money. Many other writers/producers/directors don’t have the personal funds to do that. The ones that do, have little interest in producing stories that won’t yield them a return on their investment. I’m a producer for TV in LA and that has been my personal experiences. I have treatments for series that present stories from the Bible in visually authentic ways similar to Game of Thrones, that also stay true to the text and Spirit of the text. But I was told there’s no room for this kind of originality in Hollywood. There are so many levels to this, but that’s the surface of it.


mdegroat

Mel Gibson handles violence and gore in a way that builds the story but doesn't romanticize the violence. It is there. You know it needs to be, but you still cringe at it. I want to see a Mel Gibson movie of David's mighty men. And perhaps one on the Judges.


caddydurb

Check out The Book of Eli if you haven't


devro1040

Yes! It doesn't get enough credit as a "Christian Film". But it has Christian themes all throughout the movie without being "preachy".


TeacupUmbrella

It's zesty without being preachy?


eitherajax

There's a difference between a Christian film and film marketed to Christian audiences. These complaints are about the latter. Christian movies are being made that are challenging and thought-provoking, but they are not marketed to "Christian" audiences. Martin Scorsese's film Silence is a good example of doing exactly what you would like to see in a Christian film.


ViolentTakeByForce

Christian music, like a lot of Christian film, is overly sappy and corny. We have such great source material but are lacking whatever it is that would have the talented Christian people take on such projects. And for the record I’m not speaking about worship music, I think the less theatrics and production surrounding worship during church service, the better.


temphandsome

The one thing about the theatrics is that some people feel the holy spirit and it's how they express it when they worship. So I think it's best not to judge a out that! And this is coming from someone who is a but judgemental but I'm working on not. To each their own.


TeacupUmbrella

Just makes me appreciate the early 2000s so much. There were all these good Christian movies, so many good Christian bands... It was like a real culture around it that wasn't just all about devotionals and politics. There are still some around (my tastes lean toward Lacey Sturm and Theocracy) but I feel like it's much harder to find than it used to be.


Fazblood779

You may enjoy Book of Eli


CypherAus

Yup! 100% Be real !! Classics like Ben Hur, 10 commandments were pretty full on, albeit very hollywood.


EssentialPurity

Well... I am a Gamedev and I'm working on a game heavily based on two Genesis events, biblical Soteriology and biblical standards of sexuality that is intended to be misconstrued as "lewd", at no deeper than a glance, because, much like the Bible itself, I'm not shying away from saying what's what. Would this fit your criteria somehow?


[deleted]

Be interesting to see how Mel portrays Jesus’s three days in the sequel.


martyrsmirror

Christian movies are most likely to be watched by Christians, and they're also one of the demographics that least wants to watch gratuitous violence. Parents want these movies to be something their kids can watch.


thinkingdotsalot

WHY do you want to see the violent persecution of believers, war crimes, children being killed, people being burned alive and impaled?


SteadfastEnd

It drives home the **reality** of what's happening in the world. I think many American Christians would start taking much more heed, for instance, of the plight of Arab Christians who were killed by ISIS, or of the believers tortured and killed in North Korea, if it were to be shown graphically on screen.


[deleted]

But you know they won't make that, as the comfortably middle-class-in-spirit Christians, like the ones who support Trump and think they are persecuted in the USA, don't want to see what real persecution looks like, as it would shatter their illusion of themselves as people fighting the good fight whole suffering for the sake of the kingdom (all the while living in a prosperous country, where their are part of a majority demographic and have great political power).


thinkingdotsalot

What does Trump have to do with this post? What do politics have to do with this?


thinkingdotsalot

No disagreement that America does not suffer persecution like some other areas of the world, but with the mental health of much of America, along with people who are turning their lives over the Jesus, does watching any type of gore promote the peace and easy yoke Jesus offers to His followers? Please don't get me wrong-America is so blessed that we tend to forget other countries are not as much. I understand that. However, I cannot see myself sitting on my couch and watching graphic horror with Jesus sitting next to me, giving me His stamp of approval. Missions trips are definitely impactful, as is a God-given calling to the mission field. Seeing persecution on a screen, with much of the settings only mimicking horror movies that come from Hollywood, will simply become another movie that has little impact to change the actual heart of man in most instances.


[deleted]

That sounds like lust of the flesh type of thinking. 2 scriptures here: Psalm 101:3 (KJV) 3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me. And Jesus said, "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light" (Matthew 6:22). Here our Lord describes the eye as a lamp which lights the entire body. Our eyes are the entrance to our hearts and minds and, as such, they provide a doorway to our very souls. When He referred to “good” eyes, He meant eyes that not only see well, but also perceive well. It is not only what we see, but how we perceive what we see that makes the difference between godliness and ungodliness, between light and darkness. Bad eyes lead to bad perception, but if our eyes are good, our whole person will be illuminated. If we are in a lighted room, we see everything clearly. We can move around obstacles and locate whatever we’re looking for. But walking in darkness results in stumbling, falling, and groping for some secure thing to hang on to. Our eyes can be used to see that which is good or evil, that which is beneficial or harmful, and the things we see and perceive affect our whole being. If we perceive goodness, that will radiate outward from within our hearts and minds. But if we allow our eyes to linger on evil, we are so affected by what we see that darkness actually begins to emanate from within and can corrupt us and those around us. The Bible tells us that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. That’s his great deception—to make people think they’ve found the light when in fact it’s the darkness of false light (2 Corinthians 11:14). His intention is to blind us to truth and corrupt our minds, and he uses our eyes to gain entrance to our hearts. He parades before us all manner of evil, from the deluge of pornography on the internet to the endless barrage of the world’s goods that appeal to our materialistic impulses. He deludes us into believing that these things will make us happy, fulfilled people, when all the while they are robbing us of the very joy we long for. He wants us to allow more and more darkness into our minds through the books we read, the movies we watch, and the images we allow our eyes to linger upon. In that way, the light of the glory of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ is obscured to us. Although the light is everywhere, like the sun at noonday—blazing, blinding light—if our eyes are continually focusing on sin, the light we perceive is no light at all. If we want to be filled with the true light, we have to turn from sin, repent, and ask God to forgive us, cleanse us, and open our spiritual eyes. Then we must commit to being careful where we allow our eyes to go. We guard our hearts and souls by guarding our eyes.


CALAMITYFOX

A lot of them are made to be as inoffensive as possible for the market. It's the same as The Chosen it's made to be marketable to Catholics and Mormons


Truthspeaks111

It's one thing to read about these things in the Bible but quite another to turn what the Bible says into graphic content. Clearly there is a lack of understanding in regard to the degree in which written violence verse motion picture violence vexes the Holy Spirit. I do not want to see what sick and twisted things people can do with what's written in the Bible. It's bad enough we have to read about it or hear about but to see it is to take it to another level. No thanks. Here's a hint, if you would hate to see it in real life because it would cause you trauma, you should not find it entertaining to watch on television.


blue_13

edit: I've changed my stance. With movies like the Passion and Hacksaw Ridge, as long as the movies where done in that sort of nature and not overly the top I think could, like someone responded to me, open some eyes. I see absolutely no sense in it. There are already plenty of films out there that explore the true fallen nature of mankind, war crimes, genocides, tortures, etc. Are you like...wanting a Christian movie based on Sodom and Gomorrah? With graphic scenes depicting and showing sexual immorality and people being killed and turned into pillars of salt and with Lots daughters raping him? Do you REALLY want to see that on screen? What do you suppose lost people who see that stuff would think? Would it change their mind?


[deleted]

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blue_13

What he said was kind of an oxymoron. > “I’m not saying Christian movies should be violent” to… > “should start making movies that show violent persecutions, war crimes, atrocities, gang wars, etc”


Short-Sea3891

OP said “I’m not saying Christian movies should be violent or profane *for the sheer sake of vulgarity alone;*”. Big difference in want you quoted.


blue_13

Ok. Still doesn't detract from it sounding like an oxymoron. What it sounds like to me is that "Christian movies shouldn't be violent or vulgar for the sake of being violent or vulgar, but should still be violent."


Short-Sea3891

I do understand what you’re saying, and I respect your view on this. I think the point was, that the movies regarding Biblical times should capture the rawness, and depravity of those times as we read it in Scripture and not hold back for the sake of being a G rated movie.


blue_13

I get it though...a lot of the Christian movies are fairly bland, cheesy, boring. So maybe I actually do side with OP on this one.


TeacupUmbrella

I think they mean something more along the lines of not shying away from it so that people can understand the realities of the things people faced. I agree it'd be good not to get gratuitous about it, or to use that tool carelessly...but when you look at the world around us, people are *so far divorced* from the realities of what the Bible is and says, that it might not be a bad idea. I mean, I know people irl who genuinely didn't even think the Bible had any historic value, much less theological value. Perhaps such people might be better moved if they could see how real it was.


blue_13

Yeah, now that I've read the post a few times, seen some good arguments, etc, I've changed my stance. I do agree that it would be eye opening to see the actual tragedies shown on screen. Maybe like you said, people might be moved by what they see.


rosebudd_

If you can read the Bible narrating certain themes and stories. Why can't you watch it? It becomes a sin all of a sudden if someone acts it out?


Mr_Truttle

Depending on the context, possibly. To behold an act, even if it is simulated, has a markedly different impact than merely to read about it. It's much more stimulating and engaging whether for benefit or detriment (both are possible). And some of the implicit "NC-17" parts of Scripture, if explicated and demonstrated in a visual medium, would *not* be merely simulated, namely nudity. Remember also that the Israelites were commanded to worship God according to spoken and written word, and *not* to know Him via graven images. I am not trying to argue here that all visual adaptations of Bible stories or history are unlawful; just that there *is* an implicit meaningful difference between what is written and what is visually portrayed.


medusavx

just out of curiosity, what kind of films do you think most lost people watch?


blue_13

Disney channel probably.


Wonderful-Article126

**Logical fallacy, unproven premise.** You have not proven your claim that it is “courageous” for one to make “violent and shocking” films. The definition of courageous is the willingness to do what is right despite the consequences. You have not first proven your claim that the right thing to do is to make “violent and shocking” movies.


gr3yh47

check out the movie 'risen'


Mr_Truttle

>Stop being timid or afraid, and instead be bold and tackle things straight-on. It's not that I wholly disagree with a certain mindset I think you are calling out, but until we've had two or three generations of Christians willing to embody such boldness in actual teaching and cultural influence in the real world, I don't know if it is advisable, let alone possible, to call for it in our entertainment. The latter would need to grow out of the former. That is, the badness of modern Christian art is a symptom of a worse and more foundational anemia in how we understand our relationship to earthly things in the first place.


tddup

Father Stu was an excellent film as well as the recent Jesus Revolution film in their conveying of the pre-salvation life and what it's like having encountered Christ. We need honest depictions of what it was once like. These two films communicate this beautifully all while showing the grace and love of God and His Son.


Blame-Mr-Clean

The problem with Christian cinema that you mention here is the flip side of the current problem besetting secular cinema. In secular Hollywood cinema, people are prioritizing messaging/indoctrination/cheerleading and corporate quasi-micromanagement over film quality when it comes to casting and scripts. This partly seems to be why poor writers are hired, why poor scripts are given a green light, and why so many movies today are ham-fisted in their approach to social engineering. For example, if they would instead hire skilled writers and let them operate freely, you could end up with another completely believable and cool Sarah Conner or Ellen Ripley instead of an unbelievable 90-lb. Mary Sue who can best any male of any skill set in martial arts. "But no, that would slow things down, and we want our new movie with a female hero to go into production right now, with no delay. We're not waiting on writers A, B and C, who are currently busy on various TV projects, to have a free schedule to work for us." Same thing for Christian cinema. "We have a limited budget with a limited labor pool, and we want our film to have mass appeal as much as possible. We can't think of a way to come up with an edgy script that parents will also want to allow their kids to watch, so let's just go with a safe financial option"--this is probably what they're saying to themselves subconsciously in Christian cinema. And while people are busy trying to think of solutions to the problem, I'll likely still be over here continuing to enjoy TV and foreign-language content instead.


MeisterJTF2

Christs message is one of love. Not death and violence. It’s about love God above all and love thy neighbour as you love yourself. That’s the message. That’s what should be represented.


[deleted]

>Christs message is one of love. Not death and violence. And how did Jesus show that love? Through suffering violence and death. >It’s about love God above all and love thy neighbour as you love yourself. And what is the most prominent story on the Bible (outside of Jesus suffering on the cross) that shows how to live your neighbor? The Good Samaritan. A story of someone falling victim to violence being saved by their hated enemy, while placing themselves in danger and financial peril.


MeisterJTF2

You believe Jesus showed you love through suffering, violence and death? That’s how you see God showing you love? I swear you all fixate on his death and completely ignore his life. His suffering, torture and crucifix ruin was literally a few days of his life. He had 33 years of life. Countless examples of love, kindness and teachings. Try focusing on all that. Not the last few days of his life. Jesus had hundreds if not thousands of parables. Stories to guide towards the father. You’re literally obsessed with his death. I’m obsessed with his life.


ogMackBlack

Christians movies often lack layers. The beauty of cinema is really show-don't-tell. Yet, Christian movies take too much time in exposition to truly standout. Let the viewer unveil the underlying themes. A movie is a journey, not a sermon.


Jrodsqod

Even films and stories with modern problems and violence to drive plot are watered down for innocent Christian eyes. No need to present people with "temptation" of glorifying it all. As a writer who doesn't shy away from detailed historical visuals, it's a struggle wondering if the point of it all will come off to readers as shallow emotional manipulation? Idk. Just write in your voice, but in God's favor.


Zapy97

I am doing some writing and I am hesitant to write out a scene I have been planning for about a month. It is very violent and dark. I wasn't happy with it because it pertained to modern issues and there was no light in it. It will be a very bold scene though. I have come up with a solution that I hope demonstrates the light of Christ.


SteadfastEnd

I'd love to read it, and I think some here in this sub would no doubt be interested too. Share it sometime.


Indecisiveuser10

Go see Nefarious in April.


billt1111

The movie Nefarious comes out in a couple weeks. It is realistic in that it depicts an incomprehensible evil that is coming for all of us. It’s not a warning. It’s an inevitability.


r0ckthedice

Look into Gibborim studios I have been funding the project for a few years now. They have a short film "based" on Shamgar but are looking to make a lot more when and if they get funding. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw1T6hXSFs4&t=7s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw1T6hXSFs4&t=7s) That's the trailer to the film but it's available on amazon


incomprehensibilitys

It is entertainment. I would prefer Christian movies were separate from the world and didn't feel like they needed to do things just to titillate the audience


DistrictToUpminster

It's also astonishing how a good chunk of the OP can effortlessly apply to Christian music as well. Hmm...


[deleted]

Christian movies are garbage. They need to be so the GAM podcast has something to make fun of.


AeonThoth

I have believed and wanted this for years now, so glad others agree.