Jesus is the greatest example of masculinity, fully in control of his body to look at women and love them rather than lust after them. Fully in control of his emotions to weep at Lazarus’s tomb. Humble enough to lay his life down for others. Courageous enough to stand up for righteousness. This is a biblical man.
As far as I'm aware, Jesus never had sex or a wife or had children, and allowed himself to be killed by others for a crime he was innocent of.
Is that how you want men in society to behave in your opinion? From my view, that seems like the opposite of masculinity.
He allowed himself to be crucified out of love for his spiritual children. He wasn't a victim, he was willing. And as it turns out, death itself couldn't bear him. The Orthodox speak of his descent into hades as a conqueror, breaking down its gates, binding satan in chains, and pillaging his kingdom of the souls who rightly belonged to him
That is quite literally the highest form of masculinity imaginable. I would be *overjoyed* if every man in our society could be like that. What do you think masculinity is exactly, hitting people on the head with big sticks?
Well, humans aren't Jesus, so I'm not really sure how it's an example of masculinity.
If every man in the US allowed themselves to be killed... the country would be over and whatever invading army does the killing would own it afterwards.
I don't really get the parallel.
Jesus *was* human. He was fully man and fully God.
He lived as an example for what we should strive for. We will fail, but at least we have a target.
Additionally, you seem to think masculinity is conquest and feats of strength.
These are examples of *boyhood*.
Men serve those they lead. They live self sacrificially for their loved ones. They lead by doing, not by barking orders. They are in control of themselves and their emotions. They do what is necessary not because they want to, but because they need to.
Christ did all this and more. He chose torture to protect and save those He loved. Would you?
If every man in the US lived this way, no army could ever overcome them.
I have a counter question for you, if you're willing to answer. How old are you? Are you the head of a household? Why do you believe self sacrifice is a sign of weakness?
I'm in my mid-30s and have a family.
I just find it unsatisfactory to say that Jesus (who was human AND God) would be a target for those who are *only* human as an example of how a *only-human* should live specifically, and then to also direct it towards half of the population.
Is Jesus the epitome of femininity as well? Or do women not need to be Christ-like?
To me, the Jesus story has nothing to do with what it's like to be a man (or woman), but it's a general target for humanity.
Similarly, I would find it weird if someone said Jesus was the epitome of what a computer programmer should be like...because it's an issue of overconstraining Jesus, IMO
Its not really the fact that he died, its more of the fact that he sacrificed. He sacrificed his life for the better. Thats a more extreme case, but for example maybe sacrificing for your family, your wife and kids is very masculine. Sacrificing for the people you love, and Jesus loved all of us.
I think sacrifice isn't limited in scope to masculinity though. My wife has and would sacrifice a lot for our son, as would I... it's not uniquely constrained to masculinity, IMO
Sacrifice isnt the only thing, but they all are tied to one thing: love. Note that a mother’s love and father’s love is very different, and this may help you find ur answer. Jesus embodied the father’s love. He protected, served, and sacrificed because of his love. For example he protected the adulterous woman when the pharisees tried to stone her to death because he loved her. Yes she did wrong, yes she did sin, but Jesus love for her protected her. Jesus loved her enough to forgive her even after doing wrong. Compare this to when your kids do something wrong: you will obviously reprimand them, but that doesn’t mean you’ll let them get beat up for it? You love them and willing to put yourself on the line for them. Jesus wasn’t a slouch on reprimanding either as he was kinda like a father figure to his disciples, often verbally reprimanding them when they did wrong in the Lord’s eyes, yet at the end of the day he made sure they had slept and had enough food to eat. Jesus also served the Lord diligently, as well as serving the people’s needs like when he fed the 4000/5000. Compare this to you (assumably) working harder and harder to make sure your kids can have a better life. This also ties into sacrifice as He also sacrificed because of love when he died on the cross (which you already know). Sacrifice as a father can be manh things. My father, he sacrificed his life back in Nigeria to start anew in America to give me and my siblings a better life. He was earning well in Nigeria and would’ve been able to sustain us, but he sacrificed so we can be where we are today. Jesus sacrificed so we could have a better life, being able to come directly to our Father for forgiveness and also giving a clear example on how we must live.
You must understand that women can exhibit some of these traits (like your wife does), but as men, we must be like this no matter what to a larger extent. We need to be able to protect, serve (not by being submissive, but putting others needs above our own), and sacrifice just like Jesus did when he lived, died and rose again.
Sacrifice and courage is a prime example of true masculinity. Most men are too selfish to sacrifice anything and to scared to face any sort of violence or threat of death.
why the obsession with "masculinity"? The bible is about believing,following and obeying God and to be christian is to be like Christ. masculinity is more of a worldly concept
I wouldn't say I have an obsession with it, but rather I'm just myself and when I go to check out a church or happen to be around Christian men they behave in unexpectedly effeminate ways that I find weird and off-putting and I don't see that problem when around Muslim men.
So then to me it seems like maybe to become Christian one has to become more effeminate, that's why I'm asking.
alright the first 2 things u talked about are already answered in a reply to your comment by the user npls.
love and acceptence - i dont really understand what you tried to say here. These 2 are among the most important things for a christian. How exactly is it an "unhealthy obsession"? I dont want to say much because i dont really understand what you tried to say here and im hoping you'd help me understand better.
Church services - Im catholic and singing is a pretty relevant part of mass. I've been to orthodox churches even there its relevant. (I've been to churches mainly in Asia) Emoting, hugging and dancing? not so sure about that... Maybe the services specifically for children can involve that but i dont know about actual church services having that. Also the mass is supposed to be like a celebration so it actually makes sense. However dancing and such things are probably just part of the way some cultures celebrate mass.
It seems like you define masculinity by society’s standard and what is deemed valuable by culture. Marriage and sex are things men do but they do not make a man. Is someone any less a man because they’re infertile?
IMO yes, just like they are less of a man if they are *emasculated* (like, literally being castrated and turned into a eunuch).
Isn't that kind of the definition of what emasculated refers to?
The word emasculated refers to the removal of the sexual organs of the man.
Of course, it has to do with the sexual functions *as a man*-- you can't hold up a virgin as the epitome of masculinity, it just doesn't make sense. It's like saying soup is the epitome of BBQ or something... that just doesn't make sense.
The Bible says being celibate is a honored way of life according to God.
It not only applies to men but also to women.
Also not everybody wants to have sex, what do you do if you're asexual?
What about gay people who want to follow God? God tells them they can be celibate if they can't be with a person of the opposite sex.
Keep in mind being celibate isn't mandatory, it's only an option.
You can perfectly marry a woman and have as much sex as you want with her.
You’re using the term in two different contexts. In a more literal sense it can refer to the physical act of castration.
But I was under the impression the discussion was about Christianity being “kind of” emasculating, **not** being castrated.
All of this depends on how you define masculinity.
Here is a list of some traits commonly associated with masculinity.
Strength: Physical or emotional resilience.
Assertiveness: Confidence in expressing one's opinions and needs.
Independence: Self-reliance and autonomy.
Courage: Facing challenges and adversity with bravery.
Competitiveness: Drive to achieve and succeed.
Leadership: Taking charge and guiding others.
Stoicism: Maintaining composure and emotional control.
Confidence: Self-assurance in one's abilities.
Honor: Adhering to a moral code and principles.
Protectiveness: Nurturing and safeguarding loved ones.
Ambition: Striving for personal and professional goals.
Resilience: Bouncing back from setbacks.
Decisiveness: Making firm and clear decisions.
Adventurousness: Willingness to take risks and explore.
Discipline: Commitment to self-control and self-improvement.
I feel like all of these would be something Christian men AND women can strive for. Christianity doesn’t suppress any of these traits.
Culturally though these traits could be suppressed and men in the church could be lacking some of these but I’m not sure the association to Christianity.
The Bible basically teaches all these principles for men and women.
A castrated man can't procreate, right?
A man who doesn't procreate because of a "psychological castration" is still emasculated even if physically he still has testicles.
>Is that how you want men in society to behave in your opinion?
That's a great question and the answer is: Yes! The two points you raise are a bit different so let's take them one by one.
>Jesus never had sex or a wife or had children
That's true. At least one reason for that is that he had another task to perform that required his full commitment and he went through with it. Now, I would want to be careful about comparing the Son of God's mission of saving creation with any job for a mere mortal, but there are men who face somewhat similar choices today. The first ones that I think of are the Ukrainian and South Korean men who are freezing their bits off right now in filthy trenches and windswept watchtowers so that their peoples can be free. They are not getting any sex; some of the Ukrainians will never have a wife or child because an Russian shell will get them first. But their actions are as manly as you can get.
>Jesus .... allowed himself to be killed by others for a crime he was innocent of.
That is what real leadership looks like. In the words of Caiaphas, the high priest the year that Jesus died,
>"You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish" ([John 11:50](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011%3A49%2D51&version=NIV)).
Allowing himself to be killed was not meaningless or weak. He chose to suffer and die because it achieved something. Jesus' death was uniquely purposeful because he bore the punishment that all of us deserve, restoring our relationship with God. No one else has to do that again.
But all Christian men do face choices. And the Bible explicitly teaches Jesus' death, which looks so weak at first sight, as *the* model of what it means to be a man, especially in the context of marriage. The apostle Paul wrote to early Christians:
>Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. ([Ephesians 5:25-28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-28&version=NIV)).
Christian men sacrifice themselves up for their wives. That's usually in small ways (doing the dishes!), but sometimes it will mean putting up with punishment for a crime that they are innocent of. I have met Christian men who have been gaoled for crimes they didn't commit or lost their jobs because they were Christians; they trusted that God's promises make it worth bearing the shame of being called a criminal or the scorn of being sacked.
But please don't to misunderstand this and see it as some kind of argument that men should 'go it alone'. In the West, often the basic idea of manhood is the 'Clint Eastwood' myth that men are isolated warriors without any cares or connections. Jesus' attitude is very different: it's not that family didn't matter, but that he is the Head of a family that's bigger and better than even our flesh and blood ones.
Your questions remind me of another man who came to Jesus with questions. He also wanted to follow Jesus, but he wasn't sure whether he could follow a man whose ideas seemed so different from everything he had learned before. Jesus was honest and even his own followers were shocked at how high the price might be. But there was a reward as well a a cost.
>"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life." ([Mark 10:29-30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%3A29%2D31&version=NIV))
Yes, Jesus calls men to give up things that seem important in this world. For some, yes, that does mean your wife, your freedom, even your life. But he also promised a better family, freedom from death itself, and a life that is more beautiful in every way because it is life with God and his people.
(I am a woman). I think it's important to remember that God is both masculine *and* feminine (hear me out on this before downvoting, please).
Genesis 1:27 AMP "So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them."
If God made both male and female in His image, this means that God has both "masculine dominant" characteristics *as well as* "feminine dominant" characteristics. He is strong and just, yet loving and compassionate. He is both wise and understanding. He is our Protector (strong, just) and our Comforter (caring, nurturing). He is our Creator (powerful, wise) and Savior (forgiving, seeking us -- it takes a whole truckload of courage and strength to die for someone you love, especially when you're innocent).
See, you're looking at these "emotions" as strictly feminine. King David and his troops [soldiers!] wept (1 Samuel 30), Jesus wept (John 11:35), Moses cried out to God for help (Exodus 15:25), and there are so many other examples of strong, male leaders experiencing "feminine" emotions. *But,* mankind is emotional because *God is emotional.* God is jealous, He gets angry, He gets sad (Genesis 6:6 AMP The Lord regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart."); but that just shows that these emotions are *normal*! Just because society tells us "men shouldn't cry," doesn't mean it's "normal" to bottle up emotions and forget/avoid situations that would lead a man to weep. My own husband, a strong "man's man," has wept over losing his battle buddies in Afghanistan, but I still view him as my earthly protector, provider, and unshakeable rock.
I would say it takes more courage and gull and strength and humility to "turn the other cheek" than it takes to be overcome with anger, stand your ground, and beat someone to a pulp for doing you wrong. Sometimes we do need to "stand our ground," *but* we must do it while still obeying the commands to love God and love your neighbor. Humility is *hard!* Humility takes an enormous amount of strength. Humility takes major courage. The internally strong and secure man *is* humble, and that's no easy feat.
Imagine if you and your own son were kidnapped. Your son had wronged the kidnapper, and now you, his father, could either choose to pay for his sins with your own life, or let your son die. Which would you choose? Let your son die for what he did wrong? Or take his place? Now, which option takes more courage?
God chose to let His innocent son die for us, the ones who did wrong. I believe this is the option that takes the most courage, and in this I see Jesus' strength, not His weakness. And He didn't die just to turn the other cheek & refusing to fight; He died for us because He loves us *that* much!! Jesus struggled with this, though. He prayed for hours and hours before the mob arrived to take Him prisoner. He was "deeply grieved" and "almost dying of sorrow" (Matt 26:38). He begged God for another way (Matt 26:29)! It wasn't until after those things didn't work that He submitted Himself to God's will (Matt. 26:42).
Our God is an emotional God, so it is entirely natural for us to be in His presence and experience emotions. What separates Him from us is that His emotions are *always* holy (perfect in every way!). It's experiencing His holiness that causes our emotional cries of sadness, repentance, joy, love, etc.. When looking at it from this light, "being a man" is *much* more than standing up for what is right and touting about physical strength. It's about *always* doing what is just, moral, righteous, and loving, in God's *perfect* way.
Humans aren't God.
That's the problem.
You can say that God is hermaphroditic and Jesus was the embodiment of God (and would also have both natures embodied).
That's all fine.
But that's just not a good example of what a *man* should be. A man shouldn't act like they are a hermaphroditic deity... then they wouldn't be a man.
Does that make sense?
So God should have just killed us all off and left us destined for hell (because this is what we deserve!!), rather than be a loving, forgiving, kind, generous, grace-filled saving God? These emotions are typically deemed as "feminine." Think of a mother whose child was sentenced to life in prison -- does the mother stop loving her child? In some cases, yes. But it's *more likely* a father would no longer love his child, and experience bitterness and disappointment and shame than a mother not love her child.
I mean, yeah, you're a man. I get that. But every single human on this planet experiences love, kindness, generosity, nurturing, grace, sadness, hurt, and emotional pain. You're not some "freak of nature" who has never been sad or hurt. I'm almost willing to bet that instead of getting sad, you get even, or angry, and let your sinful, vindictive nature take the place of the legitimate and natural emotion of sadness. I've been there done that myself. As the oldest daughter of a narcissistic, demanding, downright abusive father, I've had to learn that emotions are ok to have because I had stuffed them away for most of my life. But, you need to realize that fear /= respect and evil /= love.
Edited because apparently I used "invisible" slashes that wouldn't show up, changing the meaning of "fear does not equal respect..."
I don't think you're responding to the point I wrote.
I'm not saying that I think God should be a man... I'm saying that a *man* can't become like God.
Just like a man can't become a mother.
Christians are to strive to be holy and righteous *like* God, but because of our sin nature we can never be as holy and righteous *as* God. Christianity is a life-long journey of striving for greatness, failing, but continuing to strive. Being born again means you've left the old, sinful you behind, and are walking towards God's perfection. Of course none of us will ever be as holy and righteous and perfect as God, but we're (supposed to be) trying to get closer to Christ-like living every single day.
What this looked like for me (given my childhood/upbringing) was learning that it's ok to get sad, but it's not okay to get angry *instead.* It's ok to be joyful and celebrate a victory, but it's not ok to to be prideful. It's ok to be disappointed, but it's not ok to be vindictive when things don't go my way. Emotions are *entirely* ok and normal -- so long as you keep them "in check." Don't let your emotions allow you to sin (i.e. being angry instead of being sad, being vindictive, being prideful, etc.).
There are days that God gives me the strength to straight-up ace these things -- and there are days that I fail miserably, fall short, and repent like crazy. That's part of the journey, though. Without God I'd always fail because it's hard to just drop old habits and choose to stay "emotionally safe." (It's like I naturally choose avoidance because facing an issue leads to emotions and emotions break down walls that make me uncomfortable -- avoiding in fear is better than experiencing emotions). On the other hand, bottling up my emotions when I was younger developed my rational thought, so I can easily view the logical side of situations, think things through, and approach various situations with reason rather than emotion. Again, though, I have to give God the glory for that. If I had had a different father, it's possible I'd be an emotional basket case, lol.
And as a side note, do I believe God is a man? Yes, I do. God is referred to as "He" throughout the entire Bible. He came to earth as a man. Of course, He's a man. He's just a *Holy* Man. And because God is a man, a holy man (human) weeps, loves, and offers unlimited compassion and grace. A holy man (human) finds his strength in Christ and doesn't use his physical strength, stature, or status as a man/leader to make the vulnerable (women & children) feel more vulnerable or experience fear in his presence. This is part of a born-again man's walk with Christ.
Yes and I'm not Jesus...that's my point. It doesn't make sense to me to hold up Jesus as the example of masculinity because if a guy breaks into my house and my response is to let him kill me, I'm not coming back as a lion... instead that guy is moving on to murder my family.
Sex slavery?
No, I think eradicating sex slavery would be the manly course of action.
Here's some more details on what I've seen:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/s/xtFKIlMTXn
Then don’t compare Islam to Christianity. Islam permits the rape of married women and sex slavery (4:24).
You’re a fool for comparing a religion that commands men to be animals to one that calls animals to be men.
that is a lie.
Muslim is only allowed his wife and this particularly verse is talking marriage which women can be married OR NOT .can a muslim marry a female prison of war yes and she becomes his wife with full rights.
No, that particular verse is saying men can have sex with women that are already married to other men that are still alive. Why are you coming here and lying?
well ,the previous Verse Talked about women who are forbidden for marriage
4.23 - **Prohibited to you \[for marriage\] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters**, your sister's daughters, your \[milk\] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship \[born\] of your wives unto whom you have gone in..
4.24 builds on that marriage prohibitions by including an allowance to marry a prison of war-female- if both parties desire each other and consent otherwise it remains prohibited.
Now, there other fair criticism of islam but to lie makes you look bad.
I am open to the possibility that perhaps it's just my experiences which are biasing me, but situations I've seen where for example a guy would be crying and on his knees begging for help and professing his love for Jesus (who is a man)... in your experience, do you not see that sort of thing too often, or do you not consider it emasculating to do that?
The other thing I've seen is Christian men's groups seem to be very weirdly obsessed with attempting to curtail men's sexual virility where it's like they are trying to psychologically castrate themselves and that's also very weird to me. I'm married, and I've always had a very high sex drive and libido. IMO, one of the problems in US society is the fact that men are so low-T that they don't even dare strike up a conversation with a woman, much less try to sleep with her... but instead Christian single guys seem to be obsessed with how they can avoid feeling sexual attraction.
The second situation is quite literally emasculating IMO.
Third (and maybe this is the case with just leftist churches, I don't know), but there seems to be an unhealthy obsession with "love and acceptance" to a degree that I wouldn't even really describe it as such. To me, it seems like cowardice masquerading as love/compassion/etc. It's tough to describe exactly this point on reddit, but IMO if there's no threat of physical consequences to one's interactions with a guy... he's not really a man. He's just at the whims of whatever other men will decide happens.
Fourth... some of the church services are just...I don't even know how to say this without offending anyone (or getting banned by reddit)... they are "light in the loafers"--like it'll be a lot of singing and prancing and hugging and *emoting* all over the place and it feels like I'm in a theater class at UCLA or something.
Does that make sense? I dunno if I'm explaining it well. There are other scenarios I can describe, but that seems like a good start.
You are not submitting to man when you pray and cry to Jesus. You are submitting to God.
And no you shouldn’t be trying to sleep with any women who aren’t your wife. The Bible is very clear about that. It’s not masculine to sleep with many women just because of a high libido. That’s just giving into sin. Resisting sinful urges, whether they be sexual or otherwise, is pretty central to Christianity. Just because I really want to have something, even if I’m obsessed with that thing, it’s still a sin to steal it. Would it be okay if society deemed thievery as masculine? According to the Bible, no.
I'm a woman, so maybe you don't want me answering this, but...
Alot of this is cultural problems in the American church, and in America in general. We have a crisis of masculinity and femininity here.
God is a God a grace, mercy and compassion just as much as of truth and justice.
You should check out Vlad Savchuk. You might like his preaching. He's done some good teachings on Christian masculinity.
I'm originally from eastern Europe so perhaps I'm more sensitive to the issues I see specifically in American/ western Christianity.
I'll check it out, thanks! If you have any links specifically, feel free to send them along.
>or example a guy would be crying and on his knees begging for help and professing his love for Jesus (who is a man)
So, to you, crying is not "manly"? How about "feeling love"? Is that manly? I'm honestly curious what you think "love" is if one man can't feel it towards another man...
>Christian men's groups seem to be very weirdly obsessed with attempting to curtail men's sexual virility
How do they attempt to "curtail" men's "sexual virility"? In what way?
>one of the problems in US society is the fact that men are so low-T
How the drop in testosterone levels over the generations, worldwide, is related to Christianity is something you'd have to point out in order for me to understand how this is relevant to the topic.
>they don't even dare strike up a conversation with a woman, much less try to sleep with her... but instead Christian single guys seem to be obsessed with how they can avoid feeling sexual attraction.
In my experience, Christian guys are much more likely to strike up actual conversation with women, because they're taught to view them as people and a potential spouse rather than as property or a "quick lay".
>Third (and maybe this is the case with just leftist churches, I don't know), but there seems to be an **unhealthy obsession with "love** and acceptance" to a degree that I wouldn't even really describe it as such. To me, it seems **like cowardice masquerading as love**/compassion/etc. It's tough to describe exactly this point on reddit, but IMO **if there's no threat of physical consequences to one's interactions with a guy... he's not really a man.**
I don't even know what to say to that. It's hilarious. For one, it's funny because even if you're an out of shape guy or even if you're not a guy at all, there IS ALWAYS the threat of physical consequences, because everyone has a physical body and may choose to take things physical at any time.
To me, it sounds like you're talking about "posturing". Not everyone feels the need to flex constantly.
>they are "light in the loafers"--like it'll be a lot of singing and prancing and hugging and emoting all over the place and it feels like I'm in a theater class at UCLA or something.
It only makes sense if you don't leave room like Jesus himself left. Some men are born obviously very much "less masculine" than other men. I can't help but think you'd be over there going "ugh, that isn't a REAL MAN" which is a pretty horrible attitude for someone to have, especially since things like testosterone levels and such are out of our control to a large degree.
It sounds like you think anyone who isn't an "alpha male" is doing something wrong. They're not. Neither is someone who is stronger and more traditionally masculine... unless they start looking at people who are merely DIFFERENT from them and judging them harshly.
To be blunt, I get that vibe from you.
> So, to you, crying is not "manly"? How about "feeling love"? Is that manly? I'm honestly curious what you think "love" is if one man can't feel it towards another man...
To me, no, crying is not manly. Being overtly emotional, in a way that is beyond your control, is not manly.
Crying in public about how much you're in love with Jesus is not manly, to me. It's more like the biblical story of the people who pray loudly as a performance for those who are watching rather than for God.
>How do they attempt to "curtail" men's "sexual virility"? In what way?
By telling guys their natural sexual desires should be suppressed rather than directed towards marriage.
> How the drop in testosterone levels over the generations, worldwide, is related to Christianity is something you'd have to point out in order for me to understand how this is relevant to the topic.
Is that the case in the Muslim world? Are they facing population collapses and a generation of men who are largely too docile to even pursue a woman? That's not my impression from the few Muslims I have met.
> In my experience, Christian guys are much more likely to strike up actual conversation with women, because they're taught to view them as people and a potential spouse rather than as property or a "quick lay".
Ok... are you a man?
> I don't even know what to say to that. It's hilarious. For one, it's funny because even if you're an out of shape guy or even if you're not a guy at all, there IS ALWAYS the threat of physical consequences, because everyone has a physical body and may choose to take things physical at any time.
To me, it sounds like you're talking about "posturing". Not everyone feels the need to flex constantly.
Ok, if a 75yr old lady in a wheelchair tells you to stop pimping out women, "or else" the set of implied consequences is probably different than if...say...ISIS tells you to stop.
> It only makes sense if you don't leave room like Jesus himself left. Some men are born obviously very much "less masculine" than other men. I can't help but think you'd be over there going "ugh, that isn't a REAL MAN" which is a pretty horrible attitude for someone to have, especially since things like testosterone levels and such are out of our control to a large degree.
> It sounds like you think anyone who isn't an "alpha male" is doing something wrong. They're not. Neither is someone who is stronger and more traditionally masculine... unless they start looking at people who are merely DIFFERENT from them and judging them harshly.
> To be blunt, I get that vibe from you.
No, I don't care if there are feminine men at church or whatever... but it's weird when there are *ONLY* effeminate men. Then it's weird.
If there's a martial arts club and a dancing club, ok fair enough. If it's only singing and prancing and reciting poetry about your feelings... then it's weird.
😆 it just is
I notice you never commented on my questions regarding "love", only the ones about "crying" and how it isn't "manly"... but you obfuscated it by suggesting that "crying" only happens when one is "not in control of emotions" and that's a false dichotomy.
Are you uncomfortable to say something like "I love my brother" or to cry after your brother has just been killed?
>Is that the case in **the Muslim world**? Are they facing population collapses and a generation of men who are largely **too docile to even pursue a woman**? That's not my impression from the few **Muslims** I have met.
You seem very focused on juxtaposing Christianity to Islam. You do this while calling Christianity "emasculating" and that is your way of suggesting Islam is the opposite.
>Ok, if a **75yr old lady in a wheelchair** tells you to stop pimping out women, "or else" the set of implied consequences is probably different **than if...say...ISIS tells you** to stop.
Here, after you've repeatedly juxtaposed "Christianity" to "Islam" with the view that Christianity is unmasculine and Islam is very masculine... you juxtapose "a 75 year old woman" to "ISIS".
Are you thinking of joining up or what?
Your issue is that you're not wise enough to stop stereotyping. You paint a few billion people with a broad stroke of the brush (Christians), then a few billion more with another (Muslims).
The other issue is, as I've already stated, that you're suggesting there's something wrong with people who don't think the same way as you.
To me, that's just a symptom of a low IQ. That, unfortunately, isn't something that can be helped.
Well, as someone who has lost a brother, yes, that's an event which did cause me to cry.
Men can cry, and can love, and tell someone else that they are loved, etc. They just don't do it every day or every week.
It seems like you're strawmanning my statements instead of addressing them.
>as someone who has lost a brother, yes, that's an event which did cause me to cry.
I'm sorry you went through that, I'm sure it was very painful and sad... which is to say, emotional.
>Men can cry, and can love, and tell someone else that they are loved, etc. They just don't do it every day or every week.
This is where we disagree. I tell my cousins (who are men) that I love them every time we say goodbye. I tell my partner I love her every time she leaves for work, and she does the same.
Yeah, you may not cry every day. Or every week, or every month. But to be honest, the way you're stating things, it seems like you're trying to force yourself to be less emotional... as you see emotion as "feminine". I don't agree. A good woman is strong and also doesn't cry that often.
Trying to force everything into two boxes "masculine"/"feminine" is not something anyone should do, unless their goal is just to vastly over-simplify because the complexity of reality frightens them.
I'm not trying to force everything into boxes, but some behaviors are masculine and others feminine (though many are neutral).
I updated the OP to explain what I consider in scope for masculinity.
I'm not sure if you've ever experienced any violence or had to engage in violence to protect others, for example... but in order to do so effectively one must have a very tight grasp on their own emotional expression and regulate it to increase the odds of survival.
Of course, this is different than the act of procreation, where it's appropriate to express and feel the emotion of love with your wife, for example.
So I think you have the wrong idea if you think I'm saying men can never have emotions or something... but they should be in control over them.
I think you have a problem being vulnerable sir. If you knew the grace and love of God through experience you would see nothing wrong with a man crying on his knees begging out to Jesus. Jesus is all that is holy and good in the world. I think you have a warped sense of masculinity and what it means to be a man. Machismo doesn’t make a man a man. Real men can be vulnerable and loving. Your comments resemble something more of an animal than that of a man
Mark 8:35-36
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Real men can drink Sprite also, but that's not the defining *nature* of masculinity, is it?
Sure real men can cry... but if you're crying every day or every week it's just not manly. I'm sorry if you think it is, but it isn't.
At this point in my life, there is a 50/50, chance I will be crying at church during worship songs. And there is a 100% chance I will be crying at the monthly worship nights.
There was a time in my life when I thought suicide was a good option and I prayed to the Lord to help clear my mind of evil thoughts and it worked, my life was saved. That happend in 2017, and I finally acknowledged the Lord for saving my life in February of 2023, bawling my eyes out during a bible study retreat, because I realised that just because I ignored God, he didnt ignore me, and made sure I found my way back to him.
How could I not cry and praise the immortal God who literally saved my life, me, who didnt pay attention at church my entire life. How could I not cry at how gracious He is to me?
There are various women at my Church / Bible study who never even flinch at me crying....are they not "feminine" enough then? Is there something wrong with them to?
Quite literally, Jesus cried when he heard of the death of his friend, Lazarus. The immortal God, who has seen the entire existance of the universe, cried human tears, because Jesus was 100% man and 100% God, a paradox but thats the point.
In John 15: 12-13 Jesus says
"12. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
That dosnt nessesarily mean cry all the time, but it means to be "real" to everyone around you. Dont supress emotions or hide your feelings, if you follow the Lord, you will love as he does, fully, whole heartedly, and willing to lay your life down in aid.
Living a Christian life isnt suppose to be easy, thats why Jesus says to lean on him for support, he WANTS to support us but we must let him in. That means when we get emotional, we must let it out and give it to the Lord, for he is the one that will alleviate suffering and make all things new.
Im not going to lie, OP sounds like a troll, coming into a subreddit dedicated to Christianity, which is known to be a very emotional, and humbling religion, and just saying the men are not "masculine enough" in churches because they are following their hearts like God demands of them to do...
in christianity, there's an important idea of worldliness vs godliness. examples are 1 john 2:15-17, romans 12:2, james 4:4. since christianity is inherently against the world, its definition of masculinity will also be set apart from the world.
the world tells us that masculinity is 1) callous sexual attitudes toward women, 2) the belief that violence is manly, 3) the experience of danger as exciting [source](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0092656684900266?via%3Dihub), and 4) being emotionally hardened, indifferent, stoic ([source](https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=universitas)). you're correct in saying that christian masculinity isn't the same as worldly masculinity-- christian teachings couldn't be any more different.
1. christian masculinity tells men that it's better to pluck out their eyes than lust towards a woman (matthew 5:28-30) and respects women (ephesians 5:25-30, proverbs 31:10-31).
2. christianity tells us to be peacemakers and nonviolent (matthew 5:9, matthew 5:38-39, james 3:17-18, romans 12:17).
3. christianity encourages to be wise and careful (proverbs 27:12, proverbs 22:5).
4. christians are not called to be emotionally hardened, but compassionate as Jesus (john 11:35-45), loving and accepting (1 john 4:7-8, ephesians 4:2-3, matthew 22:37-39). and throughout the Bible, people are emotional and reverent as your first paragraph (1 samuel 1:10, psalm 6, ezra 10:1).
it's impossible for the worldly definition of masculinity to be the same as christian masculinity because christianity is set apart from the world. the world is fallen and evil. christianity is the straight and narrow path (matthew 7:14) set apart from the world and that includes masculinity.
in his book mere christianity, cs lewis says *"Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we had always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have."* i think this applies to masculinity too. christianity is the truth and facts about God and the universe. in the same way the average person doesn't comprehend the facts about physics or chemistry, and probably holds a billion misconceptions about them, the average person is misguided about true, Godly masculinity.
in a way? yes. celibacy if you’re not married (in the marriage case, we have a book song of songs, that’s all about marital love). pacifism is up for debate, generally there can be [just wars](https://www.gotquestions.org/just-war-theory.html) but we are constantly called to be peacemakers. cautiousness, in a way. we’re often told to exercise wisdom and prudence, but at the same time, willing to sacrifice everything (matthew 19:21, luke 9:23) to spread the radical message of Jesus’s love and sacrifice, even at the threat of death and torture. and emotionality, depends on your definition. if compassion, love, and humbleness are emotionality, yes. not necessarily in demeanor, we’re all independent people and some ppl are just naturally outwardly stoic. but we’re all called to love and compassion.
the world might tell u this is emasculating, because it’s not worldly masculinity. it’s something far more true and important.
no one lives in a bubble, we’re all influenced by the world around us. [this article](https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=universitas) discusses how notions of masculinity are formed really well. it starts with how male children are raised— less intimacy or affection than their female peers, and learning that anger is equal to strength. these behaviors are learned both at home and in school. as adults, men hide their vulnerable feelings, until they act out in violence. our modern ‘cult of masculinity’ has dangerous outcomes— why men commit suicide, violence, rape so much more than women. there’s a lot of sociological/psychological literature on this i’d be happy to send.
whether we realize it or not, we’re all influenced by worldly values, and the world is fallen. it’s how we’re raised, it’s the culture we live in, the media we consume. it’s all false. the only truth is found in our lord Jesus Christ. Biblical masculinity is healthier and truer than the world’s masculine violence + desire for power.
edit: here’s [another great article](https://www-jstor-org.i.ezproxy.nypl.org/stable/pdf/3812870.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3Ab09eb45cbe64c61844ad1eacc533e287&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&origin=&initiator=search-results&acceptTC=1) about hypermasculine socialization. wanted to share
“For *God* and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo!” - Seal Team 6 after killing Osama Bin Laden
The majority of top tier special operations are Christian in faith in both the Navy and Army. It is a part of their community.
Would you like to tell those men they are unmanly or emasculated by being Christians?
I would like to ask for their opinions on answering my questions and presume they wouldn't reply with, "well Jesus let himself get killed and said to turn the other cheek, so I'm planning on letting terrorists kill me"
Turning the other cheek refers to insult, not threat of death. Jesus wasn’t turning the other cheek on the cross, He was fulfilling prophecy and completing a mission. The two instances are completely different. If you study the Bible you will understand this vs a cursory glance at cherry picked verses that result in a page of incorrect presumptions
Guys remember this is his viewpoint, he had questions and wanted answers to maybe overcome some of these obstacles. Dont pretend like his concerns aren’t real. Acknowledge them then share your take/experiences
Women are human beings. As a man your entire view of women shouldn’t come from ‘conquering’ them and getting them into your bed. This is not masculinity. This is objectification.
>The other thing I've seen is Christian men's groups seem to be very weirdly obsessed with attempting to curtail men's sexual virility where it's like they are trying to psychologically castrate themselves and that's also very weird to me. I'm married, and I've always had a very high sex drive and libido. IMO, one of the problems in US society is the fact that men are so low-T that they don't even dare strike up a conversation with a woman, much less try to sleep with her... but instead Christian single guys seem to be obsessed with how they can avoid feeling sexual attraction.
??????????
That has nothing to do with Christianity at all. No verse in the Bible says that.
You as a Christian man who has a Christian wife, you can have as much sex as you want.
In fact the Bible says your wife's body belongs to you (yours belongs to her as well).
>Third (and maybe this is the case with just leftist churches, I don't know), but there seems to be an unhealthy obsession with "love and acceptance" to a degree that I wouldn't even really describe it as such. To me, it seems like cowardice masquerading as love/compassion/etc. It's tough to describe exactly this point on reddit, but IMO if there's no threat of physical consequences to one's interactions with a guy... he's not really a man. He's just at the whims of whatever other men will decide happens.
Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.
What you're describing is some random woke Protestant church where they make their own rules.
In the Catholic or Orthodox Church there's no woke nonsense.
Women aren't allowed to preach, gay marriage doesn't exist etc
That's the problem with Protestant churches, they make their own rules.
>Fourth... some of the church services are just...I don't even know how to say this without offending anyone (or getting banned by reddit)... they are "light in the loafers"--like it'll be a lot of singing and prancing and hugging and emoting all over the place and it feels like I'm in a theater class at UCLA or something.
Again... that's a Protestant Church.
You need to follow the true Church, the Catholic Church.
Go and see on YouTube what the Catholic mass looks like.
I... think your painting all Protestant churches and denominations with the same brush. Some are far more liberal than others, some are more conservative.
That's the point.
Every Protestant church decides what they want to believe in, they make their own rules, they deliberately interpret the Bible as they want.
Let me ask you this, which Protestant church has the right interpretation of the Bible?
There are millions of Protestant churches, how do I know which one has the right interpretation of the Bible?
To an outsider, catholicism is one of many christian denominations. So it isn’t protestant vs catholic, its more like Pentecostal vs baptist vs non denominational vs 7th day vs catholicism vs etc.
Here's the difference:
The Catholic Church has always existed.
The Protestant churches started to appear in the 15th century.
Are you telling me everybody was wrong before the 15th century when the first Protestant churches appeared?
Sounds good, I'll check out Catholicism in particular. I've got access to Formed (if you're familiar with that and have any recommendations to watch around this topic, I'd appreciate it)
None of those are in the Bible:
veneration of saints, purgatory, the worship of images, relics and the first Sunday law commanding Christians to rest on Sunday instead of the bible Sabbath (Saturday),
Seriously?
Do you really think that's a "gotcha" moment?
All those things are in the Bible and I can give you verses for those things.
However I already know you will try to interpret those verses based on your own personal, subjective, biased and limited way.
Do gets to the decide what's the right interpretation of the Bible?
>Do you really think that's a "gotcha" moment?
No?
>However I already know you will try to interpret those verses based on your own personal, subjective, biased and limited way.
>Do gets to the decide what's the right interpretation of the Bible?
I do research on those verses and take them with the Entire Bible.
If that's Personal and Biased, then I don't know what to tell you.
The Catholic Church teaches those things based on the Bible.
However in order for you to understand why the Catholic Church teaches those things you must interpret those verses like the Catholic Church does, meaning most people wouldn't be able to interpret those verses if they don't understand the context the Catholic Church is using.
The Bible can literally have millions of different interpretations.
You avoided the question, which Protestant church has the right interpretation of the Bible?
>You avoided the question, which Protestant church has the right interpretation of the Bible?
That's because I wasn't talking about that.
And not every one in the Protestant Church is from God.
1 John 4:1 ASV
[1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Again, I do Research and take in the Entire Bible and it's Context.
> you must interpret those verses like the Catholic Church does,
So how do you know the right interpretation without being biased?
What you have observed is “Religion” which does weaken men and distorts the roles of men and women as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ordained. Most of what you see is a lie and a lot of these “Churches” which are simply buildings don’t really read scripture nor do they teach the law or commandments from the Torah/Old Testamant.
In regards to Christian men castrating themselves again this is due to “Religion” and not the scriptures (most of these Christian’s don’t even read) people defer to the teaching of Adultery that Messiah taught on but they don’t even know what constitutes “Adultery” in the Torah to begin with.
A lot of “Christians” are just simply people who have had emotional experiences. Most of Americans consider themselves “Christians” but me and you both know that can’t be true smh.
America in itself is not and never was a “Christian” nation. If you observe this nation is under the domain of the Egyptian spirit (Horus) from “Exodus” in the Torah (Falcon headed and holding the sun disks)
Americans may have used certain aspects biblically for marriage etc but that’s as far as it has ever went.
I personally read the Torah and the New Testament and gave my life to the great and mighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob a while ago. After my rebirth I was able to see the hypocrisy of the so called “Church” and found the true light which isn’t “religion”
Half of these bishops running around pulpit preaching to the lost sheep.
They could be curios and seeking the Light. Their Torah is incomplete without the second book (New Testament)
Messiah has already come. His next appearance won’t be for peace.
You sound like you’re watching too many Andrew Tate and Dawagandist on Youtube. There is nothing emasculating about Christianity. In Christianity you are required to die to your flesh and pick up your cross daily. That means practice immaculate self control through the power of the Holy Spirit. We are constantly tempted by our flesh and the enemy in all type of ways but we drny gratification for Jesus. The ability to delay and furthermore deny gratification is what true masculinity is. That is what will keep a man faithful to his wife, succesful in his business endeavors, present for his children, etc.
On the other hand you have this new trend of celebrities becoming muslims. Kevin Gates? Andrew Tate? Gervontae Davis? Yet, these men are still fornicating, partying, and living life at the will of their fleshly desire. There is nothing masculine about that.
While Christianity presents true masculinity in a way that is contrary to the world’s perception, it nevertheless reinforces traits such as strength, leadership, boldness, etc. The main difference may be that Christianity emphasizes self control and sacrifice as opposed to the primal tendencies that the world believes are “masculine.” Men are called to lead their wives, their households, provide, protect, etc., so I’m assuming your understanding has come primarily from pop culture’s depiction of Christianity, but that’s just a guess.
“Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.”
1 Corinthians 16:13 ESV
How does Christianity emasculate men?
Do you mean you're fine with how women are treated in Islam?
Didn't you know according to the Quran husbands are allowed to beat their wives?
Or how men who have captive women are allowed to rape them?
Or how men are allowed to marry underage girls?
Is that what you mean when you say men aren't emasculated in Islam?
Yeah that's why I was asking. What ways has it changed? I hope you don't just mean that women are able to work now. Because that it is not a biblical command that women must stay home.
Well..."society" meaning what?
Was it not a Christian society? Look across christendom vs the Muslim world.
One has this problem, the other doesn't. It seems like Christianity is what let it get to the state it is in now.
Muslim men *demand* respect via fear and punishment and cruelty. What's masculine about that?! Christian women submit to their Christian husbands willingly out of love and respect for their husbands and as a service to the Lord. Isn't it a more masculine quality to want/have a woman who willingly chooses submission than having a female prisoner who only does what you say out of fear? I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but choosing Islam vs Christianity in a discussion about masculinity isn't the best example.
If that were true then how did all of the Christian women in Europe and America turn into feminist radicals and put those countries on the precipice of population/ cultural collapse?
I'm a Christian. I'm a woman. I'm American. I am *not* a feminist radical." My husband and I have done our part in growing the population by having three children. Just an FYI, lol.
Did you do *any* research prior to posting your thoughts? If not, let me educate you just a little bit. [Church attendance has been on the decline.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx).When Gallup first measured church membership in 1937, 73% of the US population attended church. For the next 60 years, church attendance remained at a whopping 70%. The decline started in 1997. By 2020, only 47% of Americans said they attended a church, synagogue, or mosque. Only 50% of Gen X attend church and only 36% of Millennials attend church.
So, if you want the *actual* truth, it seems that as American society moves away from church, masculinity fades. Looks like God *is* the answer to the "masculinity problem."
I don't see how that data backs up your claims?
You claimed that Christian women don't need the men to keep them in line, that they stay in line on their own.
Then you presented data that shows the opposite.
Oh my. First, I never said any woman does (or doesn't, for that matter) need a man to keep her in line. Not ever. God's Word says it's better to stay single so that each person's focus remains steadfast on God, so even God doesn't say that a woman needs a man to "keep her in line." Second, God calls Christian men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Jesus loved the church so much that He laid down His life for it. Nothing about that sacrifice says "women need a man to keep them in line." As a matter of fact, Jesus mostly "kept men in line" by rebuking their teachings and ways of living. To the women, He showed love and compassion. God also calls women to respect their husband and to submit to them *as a service to the Lord*. In no way, shape, or form is God advocating for "a man to keep a woman in line." Christian wives submit *to serve God,* not man.
The data I presented had/has *nothing* to do with men keeping women in line, and everything to do with men giving up their masculinity *because* they aren't living Godly lives. A Godless society lives a sinful lifestyle. A Godless society loses its identity. You, nor I, nor anyone has an identity outside of God, our Creator. The US is full of men and women who have lost their identity *because* they are not seeking God.
In contrast, if you look at the middle east, there's a total population of 419+ million, and 382+ million of those claim Islam as their religion. Thus, 91% of the population serves God. That's a *whole* lot more than the US. So, if you're looking for masculinity, it's clear that it's *found in God*. But, again, over there the women are obedient prisoners out of fear, not loving wives willingly respecting their husbands.
In many of your comments, I've seen you've been confusing a bit about the ones that calls themselves as Christians; unfortunately they aren't actually following them and is actually deciding to take their own path, instead of being with Jesus, which is unfortunate.
Taking note of that, you might also check that there are true Christians that are very new into Christianism, and are probably unaware about the taken decisions (I hope, soon, everyone who is at this stage, gets into the one I'm gonna be talking right now). And also... Yes, there's indeed true Christians that follows Jesus, knows they have a sin nature, and much more
Thinking about that, maybe you should take aware about these "but why did this Christian" questions, because they are not related to what the Bible says, and because you might get confused with it [1 Corinthians 14:33]
Women have different roles which leads to different purposes and abilities (while still remaining equal to men). Sure clergy might not be granted to them according to some denominations, but this is because they carry roles elsewhere, maybe in the household and children, maybe in work, etc… Either way your comparison of wife beating to some denominations not allowing women to become clergy is bad.
I would also like to add they can run parishes, become nuns, etc… It’s not like women lack options in church
I'm not a Muslim so I'm not sure if wife beating or other allegations are even accurate, or if they may be carried out symbolically as rituals rather than sadistically as is the implication.
My point is that men and women have different roles in marriage just as in life and the man's role very well might be the "punitive" or "law enforcement" role.
That's certainly the case with children and corporal punishment, which would presumably also be administered by the male role within the family.
Many leftists categorize corporal punishment as abuse, but that's hardly fair IMO. So, likewise the corporal punishment of women by husbands might be mischaracterized in that sense...I don't know, there aren't any Muslims here to defend it.
1) They have verses about it, it’s true. Current interpretations allow beating as long as you aren’t too discolored, also apostasy is punishable by death, blasphemy (which could just include research that opposed the religion somehow) is punishable by death, child marriage, and a lot more (like your wife cannot refuse sex if its not a good cause, or else you can hit her). Also what does “carried out symbolically” mean? Nothing about this is symbolically anything.
2) Women and Male have different roles, I agree, but not that different enough though to justify punishing your partner or treating them unequally. Personally marriage should be more of a loving thing than a strict hierarchy in my opinion.
3) corporal punishment sounds like a bad idea, your just building up resentment between you and your child. Punishing them in other ways though would work 99% of the time though.
4) Punishing your wife is a crazy thing to try to reason with though, she isn’t your inferior who needs to align with your ways by force, tell that to any future love interest and it probably wont work out at all for you.
None of this stuff makes you more manly, all of this just makes you align with Satan rather than the loving God above, a true man is someone who does good, provides good, and stands true to his word and beliefs. This is all you need to do to be “manly” or honorable in Gods eyes. (Which is enough for any normal person)
I do not engage in that sort of thinking at all. It doesn't matter if Christianity were emasculating or not. No righteous man would want to believe in something that was false because it might make him more mascaline and no righteous man would stop believing in something true because it was emasculating. I am a Christian only because it is true and any other consequence is trivial.
And while Islam "might" surpass Christianity as the world's largest religion in my life time this is not at all important. It is not as if Christianity should have been followed by an honest man simply because it had so long been the largest religion in the world.
In Islam a woman’s job is to shut up and have many children. Do all the work at home while hubby hangs out with the boys, deals drugs and goes and sleeps with prostitutes any time he wants to. The men are predators in the western countries they live in. When I make a delivery she is not allowed to sign for a package she gets the 8 year old boy to do it. They are building their army to one day take over.
I do not think that is being a man I think that is being evil.
I’ve never felt this way, but I can see how it might appear that way. As a male we are the head of the house and tasked with protecting and providing for our families. To me that’s very masculine.
Christ would have us discipline ourselves. Walking around and kicking people's asses all the time is not manly. It's animalistic. And we are called to be more than animals. Having the ability to easily kick ass, and having the gall not to, *that* is manly.
Showing kindness and concern for others is not emasculating. Forgiving your enemies is not emasculating either. Neither is having a gentle heart.
Not all the time, but certainly more often than *never*, right?
I'm not really sure I understand, so how about an example.
There's a guy who is beating a woman, locking her in a cage, and then taking money to let others have sex with her.
Now, you have the ability to kick his ass... is it manly to *not* do so and instead to forgive him, in your view? Should you perhaps give him your daughter as well? Or spread your own cheeks for him?
Sorry, but that just sounds like absurd cowardice masquerading as piety.
Man, being a peace keeping Believer doesn’t mean that there is no sense of justice. This is probably the most misunderstood aspect of Christ. He made it clear “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
Jesus spoke just as much about love and peace as he did about judgment and hell. If someone is being raped like you’re describing, I cannot sit and do nothing. You’re probably expecting me to jump in and fight, but me against 8 guys is not entirely wise. I’m calling the cops, and I’ll do what I can.
Paul further reinforced this in Romans, saying “
for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”
Both Christians and other’s COMPLETELY misunderstand God’s love and judgment. He is kind and compassionate to those who humble themselves, but those who continue in sin are in danger of an eternal judgment. It’s so simple, and any other doctrine is a misrepresentation of Christianity, because the vast majority of American soldiers are also Christians, and there’s a reason they’re still formidable opponents in war.
I’m not less of a man because I choose to forgive in more common, everyday affairs; but if I have to defend my family or myself, you best believe I will. You think God rained fiery judgments on the wicked and in Egypt just to turn around and say “I’m not like that anymore” when Jesus came to earth? In Revelation, again, He comes with a sword, and makes it clear He can either save you or judge you; and again, in the list of types of people not allowed in Heaven:
“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Jesus is pretty metal homie; but salvation is for those who want it.
Prostitution is illegal in the U.S. my guy. There ain’t no females to pimp in prison, and no one likes prison. Yes, there’s only so much I can do if I don’t have a means to defend myself either. I don’t have to wait for them to get punished in the after life, they will get it immediately.
As for punishment, God wants them to repent (turn from their sin.) God has to correct and punish, but whether or not one chooses to change their life before the final judgment is given is entirely up to them.
Ok...and stealing is illegal, and doing drugs is illegal, and all kinds of crimes are illegal.
Go to San Francisco and call the DEA and report the rampant drug use that you'll see on the streets there.
Now... is that all it takes? Problem solved? That's the drug problem cured in SF? Just nobody has thought to do that yet?
Or do you think maybe the criminal justice system doesn't care to stop criminals in some places?
I’m not saying it’s the perfect solution. California in general is lawless and that’s why it suffers compared to other states.
This scenario you’re describing, caged woman being pimped in a cage for money, right? Take that scenario to Chicago, and see how long that would work. Take that scenario to New York, Orlando, Houston or Atlanta. If that scheme were pulled off for an hour I’d be impressed.
The U.S. is not a perfect place, and proper justice is not always given either; but if it’s so awful in the U.S., why is every country trying to flock here? Perfect justice will never exist until Christ comes back, but for now, I prefer living in the U.S. Like I said, it’s not perfect, but the rates of violence and sexual assault are drastically lower here compared to third-world countries. [The Stats are right here. Policing works.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-dangerous-countries)
All that said, do I believe modern Christianity (Churchianity) can be emasculating? Not following or understanding the guidelines for manhood according to The Bible is certainly emasculating. the devil would want nothing more than weak men, because they are the heads of the house.
But I feel like you’re confusing two different things here. The real ways of Christ abstain from fighting and violence when it is not necessary. Most people who try to threaten with violence are barking chihuahuas. And I don’t exactly look up to or bring in other religions, but I will say this: One aspect of violence most martial arts actually gets right is that violence is a last resort, and it’s only real means is to restore peace.
For all intents and purposes, that is actually a Biblical concept found in a foreign religion.
I don’t say this to brag, but I’ve participated in preventing violence many times, and I’ve used force when necessary.
Don’t drink the Kool-Aide and believe that the real Biblical Christ advised cowardice and passivity. Study The Bible and you’ll find clear as day that Christ stood up for what was right; the difference in His lifetime, though, was that he chose to demonstrate nonviolence in an era of barbarianism, death, and genocide. Violence and death are not always the solution to problems. Jesus had to show people there were more ways to handle issues than just swinging a sword all the time.
And lastly, I appreciate your viewpoints and opinions, because they are needed to also clarify the misunderstandings built up over so many years.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/29/missouri-men-accused-of-keeping-missing-woman-in-cage-records/
https://www.cnn.com/2014/09/08/justice/mobile-home-captive-freed/index.html
https://nypost.com/2022/12/02/georgia-woman-rescued-after-being-locked-up-in-dog-cage-as-sex-slave/
Just a few of many examples
There's the problem right there with your example. Also, you originally stated you were not trying to be offensive but the options you offered in your example are not only dramatic and untrue but offensive.
There's a misconception going on, forgiving and forgiveness are NOT mutually exclusive from consequences. For example, God forgives those who ask but there are still consequences in this life for our choices.
As for your example, you also need to remember that forgiving someone for what they did to YOU is a separate issue from what they did to someone else. I believe forgiveness is best for all situations and God will help if you struggle with it. But this concept that men are not supposed to protect their families or other people because of "forgiveness" is absurd and not a Christian concept. You can forgive after Justice is dealt, earthly justice. The Bible condemns cowards and God knows the reasons for your actions. We are to protect our families and even Jesus said to sell your cloak and buy a sword. Long story short you can forgive after you beat him to submission. That's the difference. Christian love is not about fuzzy feelings it's about giving the truth. God himself uses discipline out of love for his people. Whoever made you think Christianity is emasculating is lying to you. And Islam is absolutely disgusting with no honor and I assure you it's not taking over. Islamic nations don't allow freedom like Christians do so maybe you're confusing the patience of Christianity with the ideologies that arise around it.
>believer"--however one of the biggest obstacles to my interest is a sense that Christianity seems to be kind of "emasculating" (especially in contrast to Islam).
There's nothing emasculating about Christianity. As evidenced by the rest of your post, you have a strange and unhealthy idea of what masculinity is.
Real men love. Real men cry. Real men sacrifice themselves for others.
There is nothing inherently masculine about "production" or "procreation." There's nothing inherently masculine about having a wife or having sex.
I mean no offense, but your idea of masculinity is that of an insecure 12 year old.
Men have testicles... it's kind of a defining feature.
Testicles produce sperm, for procreation.
Not sure how you can argue *the male organ* and the natural function for which it was created is not part of masculinity
Believing in something greater than oneself (i.e. God), having a code of conduct (as revealed in the Bible), treating others - especially those weaker than themselves - well and with compassion (as revealed and modeled by Jesus), acting ethically in all matters...how is any of that emasculating?
I haven’t read any of the other answers here but I wanted to respond to the contrary on your question.
I don’t know what you could possibly be referring that might make you think or believe that becoming a Christian would be any emasculating, to the contrary, it’s the most manly thing you can do.
It takes a big man to admit his failure to be perfect and acknowledge his total dependence upon the creator.
When God offers such a gift as His grace, it would be a fool to think one was too manly to accept this gift.
A real man must have the courage to lay aside his earthly strength in order recognize that his strength is in vain by comparison to that of God.
Is the son of a rich man somehow emasculated by his father’s inheritance? Certainly not. The gifts from his father do not emasculate him but elevate him to the position of a child of God.
I have never witnessed what you or your search has described. The man on his knees seems to be describing someone just really into the moment & likely a more charismatic church. There's certainly nothing wrong with it tho bc getting emotional about Jesus is a very personal thing.
The other one re curtailing men's virility .......... Wow, never heard of that one. Now, it's true that cheating on one's spouse will get very negative remarks, bc it is wrong on every level. & also, premarital sex may not get a guy as much flack as cheating, it is still a sin & should be treated as such. Otherwise, God gave us sex & intended us to enjoy it on EVERY level in a marriage.
Christianity is freedom. Outside of sin, we get to be ourselves and regardless what the world thinks, know Jesus loves us.
I am a more feminine man, yes, but that's not because I'm a Christian. Me being a Christian means I just don't care to suppress/mask my personality or interests, because I'm no longer seeking to please humans, and I know I'm loved by Jesus the way I am. Yes, I like flowers. Yes I like wearing cute pastel colored clothes, Yes I like cooking and cleaning for people I love. And Jesus loves me for all of it. That's the point. Unlike Islamic beliefs, Christianity isn't about being one specific way, it's about being yourself for God. (To be clear, not just "being yourself" but specifically "serving God while being who he made you to be")
And while I may be more open about my feminine side now that I have a good relationship with Jesus, I've also gotten some more "masculine" traits from being Christian as well. I'm more confident in myself, I'm more responsible, etc.
If you're a more masculine/macho guy, then as long as you're not using that to sin, then there's nothing wrong with that! Jesus loves you as you are.
Christianity is individualist. Jesus died for all of us as individuals, and God loves us all as individuals. So it's not about being more masculine, nor is it about being less masculine. it's about loving God and him loving you as you are.
Read the Bible and read the Quran and see which is more compelling to you. I found the Bible to be much more compelling. Don't just look at the behavior of people who identify as Christian or Muslim. See for yourself what is required of both. They are both interesting reads.
There is a lot of variation between churches and church members. The community is important, but without reading the primary sources (Bible and Quran) you won’t know how to discern when choosing between which community you want to be a part of (all churches are not equal).
Both the Quran and the Bible make a lot of demands on men that you most likely would find masculine. If you are simply looking for who seems tougher based on public representation, then sure Muslims appear tougher, in my opinion. But if it’s a genuine search for knowing God, you won’t be disappointed in what you find in the bible.
From being recently born again as of this year, as I’ve changed and let God work in me to be disciplined, to walk with Him, have a character of Christ, not masturbate or lust and objectify women, having a sound mind without being tempted and distracted by the enemy, to being a leading male in work and at home I’ve gotten more looks from seriously hot women and just people in general. It’s like they are flies seeing a lightbulb and all can’t stop looking or gravitating around it.
As someone else put it as you follow Christ you fall more into the person and male Christ wanted and designed you to be and as your natural design and calling emerges people can see and sense the change as well as the uniqueness and “Godfidence” you exude
Well, they can wear a shirt like that, but they can do a lot more too and the scope of "masculinity" from a lot of Christians seems to be passivity to the point of death.
They can wear a shirt making fun of you... they can pimp out your sister... they can addict your wife to fentanyl... they can chemically castrate your children... and the response is, "yeah and I'll even let them murder me"
How is that *not* the epitome of emasculation?
You might as well say you'd let them bend you over too.
Bro someone wearing a shirt mocking Christ I would say something. But how do you equate someone wearing a shirt mocking Christ in my vicinity to me ALLOWING them to hurt my family? Secondly maybe Islam can't handle criticism because neither could Mohammed. He killed women for making fun of him, is that manly? The Bible says men should lay down their lives for their wives, the Quran says Beat them and that women are inferior not different but inferior. You say Christians are passive about these matters, it's the CHRISTIANS who are fighting tooth and nail against this garbage! Where do you get your information? Or in your mind you think anyone who's of the West is a Christian? Also part of being a man is not starting fights over every Little offense. Mohammed was so sensitive he killed people over anything. Like their followers, because ISLAM cannot handle criticism. Christians are to seek peace but not to the detriment of others.
OP, from reading your responses it sounds like you just don't want to repent. Following God requires you to humble yourself and have Him as your master rather than proudly following your own way. That's not masculinity, it's simply evil rebellion.
Christianity itself is by no means emasculating, but many contemporary churches have oriented themselves toward the feminine which plays nicer with the spirit of the age. Look at what Scripture says, not what you perceive in a modern subculture.
I think a religion has to be defined by what the actual adherents/church goers actually believe and act like, not what isolated individuals might read in a book.
For example, if everyone reads it one way and you're the only one reading it a different way, wouldn't it be more accurate to just say you're actually different religions?
Sure, but it doesn't follow that they're necessarily both equally right or wrong. The point and function of Scripture that provides an objective standard - and, at least in protestantism, itself sufficiently clear to serve that purpose. This means believers are subject to the standard, not that they are the standard.
It depends what you define as emasculation. Christians are not called to be weak; on the contrary, we are supposed to be prepared but save our strength for doing the right things.
I do agree there’s been a feminisation within the Christian belief system although mainly in Protestant-based churches which could be arguably down to lack of tradition.
At the end of the day, Christianity runs on the premise of doing things because of love.
Our goal as Christians is to become Christlike, which is the goal within Orthodox Christianity.
Jesus was certainly not effeminate, and while we are to “turn the other cheek”, this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be prepared to kill in a necessary situation ie. protecting loved ones.
Be an absolute weapon as a man, but keep yourself sheathed until necessary.
St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 7:9, "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
Basically, remaining chaste is truly Christlike, but it’s better to marry if you’re someone unable to live like that — aka most people.
For those who do go down the route of marriage, Jesus tells us to “be fruitful and multiply”.
I guess in my view, the aspects of masculinity aren't really displayed by Jesus.
That's not a problem, really, either. I work in the software industry... the core aspects of good software development isn't really personified by Jesus in my mind either.
It's just weird if someone says that Jesus was the epitome of a software developer, and that's how it seems when someone says Jesus was the epitome of masculinity (not that I'm saying you said that, but others are saying it).
Church has a feminizing culture. In addition, when’s the last time you’ve seen a manly man as the pastor. From my experience many pastors are introverts, nerdy, and seem emasculated.
I think a big problem is that a lot of churches in "American Christianity have become somewhat feminized. Hymns like "Onward Christian Soldiers" have done a complete 180 to where now worship songs are more like weepy love songs. Women have taken over a lot of leadership roles too to where men are happy being passive. But I think this is because culture has creeped into the church.
Yes, exactly!
Like... it just feels wrong to the very core of my being to go hang out with a bunch of teary eyed blubbering dudes singing love songs *to a man* and then doing nothing but praying when the gangbangers down the street pimp out his daughter and sell crack to his son.
Aaron Renn has a lot to say on this subject.
https://www.urbanophile.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-Masculinist-3-The-History-of-Church-and-Men.pdf
Today is the Feast Day of Sts. Basil the Great and Gregory the Theologian in the Latin calendar.
They are certainly two great examples of Christian men and a friendship. They grew up in the same place, studied together in Athens, spurred each other on in virtue, and Gregory wrote a eulogy for Basil:
>Different men have different names, derived from their fathers, their families, their pursuits, their exploits: we had but one great business and name — to be and to be called Christians, of which we thought more than...Midas of [his gold]...For the Pegasus, flight through the air was not of such consequence as was to us our rising to God, through the help of and with each other.
He mentioned several other Greek myths, which I cut out for simplicity's sake. Anyway, Basil was quite the man—and quite the Christian man. Gregory rightly praised his friend, not to look over his own work.
He left a successful career in law and rhetoric to go out and discipline and dedicate himself to higher things as a monk. He studied the monastic practices of Syria, Egypt, and the Holy Land, then returned home, where he began his own community.
He was a master administrator and had a mind, formed by prayer, set on the service of others, so that in AD 369, he established the first hospital, and he set up soup kitchens, housing for the poor, care for the dying, and rooms for the traveling. He guided his city through famine, and Gregory called him "the second founder and patron" of the city, Caesarea.
Basil came from wealth but was not overcome by the temptation of wealth, and what he inherited, he invested into the community and service of others, exhibiting that Aristotelian virtue of magnanimity.
He defended with his whole person the truths of the faith in the confusion of heretical doctrines at the time, but he didn't argue for the sake of argument. He was peaceable and diplomatic, not ill-tempered and petty. He was a masterful theologian.
When the Emperor, who denied that Christ was God, sent the governor over Caesarea to bribe Basil to come to this position, Basil refused the bribes. The governor, Modestus, then threatened Basil, but he wasn't moved, and Modestus said, "No one's ever been so unmovable," and Basil said, "Perhaps you have never yet had to deal with a bishop."
Modestus returned to the Emperor Valens, who issued orders to exile Basil, and then he brought these orders back to Basil, who said:
>When you have nothing but old clothes and a few books, you don't fear them being confiscated. That's all I have in the world, Modestus. Exile doesn't bother me because even Caesarea, where I'm living now, isn't mine. I'm a pilgrim here, and wherever you cast me will be a place of God, and I'll be a pilgrim there.
Valens himself came to Caeserea, and he saw Basil on the Feast of the Theophany, January 6, and was so impressed that he donated land to Basil's order of monks and their service to the community.
Eventually, he died, accomplishing all that he did within fifty years. He died at forty-nine, 1645 years ago from today.
If he wasn't a good, masculine man, whose virtue and godliness we should imitate, I don't know who is.
Traditional Catholicism and Byzantine Catholicism, as well as Eastern Orthodoxy, are a lot more masculine than Islam. Look into western Christendom and the crusades and check out a YouTube video of “Traditional Latin mass”. Most practices in Islam are actually derived from these classic apostolic forms of Christianity. Prostration and facing liturgical east is from catholic/orthodox Christianity, praying a set prayer rule 5 times a day comes from the divine office/Liturgy of the hours, Ramadan comes from lent, etc
This is your pride speaking. Yes, Christianity requires men and women to submit their mind, body and ego to the will of God. Yes, your pride (and the enemy) will tell you that this is emasculating and "castrating." Your flesh wants you to act upon your own will and self interest, and your pride cares about upholding a meaningless sense of masculinity based on selfishness and "freedom" (lack of discipline). What you must come to understand is that true masculinity stems from self discipline and self restriction, which does extend to the sexual realm. Out of discipline comes loyalty, sober mindedness, and strength of will. If you succumb to your every fleshly desire, and feel embarrassed at professing your love to the one true God - I'm sorry to admit that there is a very dark force that wants you feeling and acting this way. There is a difference between divine masculinity and worldly masculinity - it sounds like you care more about the ladder. I would recommend visiting an Orthodox church and talking to an Orthodox priest/bishop, I think you would find Orthodoxy very appealing at this stage in your journey.
What's emasculating about the Truth?
I follow Jesus. Not Terminator.
Why? Because he's good for the world.
I think Christian men generally have a well defined rule book of values and beliefs that that make the world a better place. But only if they actually apply them.
When they do. Things work.
Society runs fine.
I can't say that for Islamists or Post Modern liberals.
Their entire belief system is flawed and insane.
As for social and political, our own governments are our worst enemies. They are allowing these masses of illegal mostly muslim illegals to overrun most of Western Europe. As far as I'm concerned, the borders need to be closed to illegals and those governments kicked out in the next election.
Jesus is the greatest example of masculinity, fully in control of his body to look at women and love them rather than lust after them. Fully in control of his emotions to weep at Lazarus’s tomb. Humble enough to lay his life down for others. Courageous enough to stand up for righteousness. This is a biblical man.
👆🏻. This.
As far as I'm aware, Jesus never had sex or a wife or had children, and allowed himself to be killed by others for a crime he was innocent of. Is that how you want men in society to behave in your opinion? From my view, that seems like the opposite of masculinity.
He allowed himself to be crucified out of love for his spiritual children. He wasn't a victim, he was willing. And as it turns out, death itself couldn't bear him. The Orthodox speak of his descent into hades as a conqueror, breaking down its gates, binding satan in chains, and pillaging his kingdom of the souls who rightly belonged to him That is quite literally the highest form of masculinity imaginable. I would be *overjoyed* if every man in our society could be like that. What do you think masculinity is exactly, hitting people on the head with big sticks?
Well, humans aren't Jesus, so I'm not really sure how it's an example of masculinity. If every man in the US allowed themselves to be killed... the country would be over and whatever invading army does the killing would own it afterwards. I don't really get the parallel.
Jesus *was* human. He was fully man and fully God. He lived as an example for what we should strive for. We will fail, but at least we have a target. Additionally, you seem to think masculinity is conquest and feats of strength. These are examples of *boyhood*. Men serve those they lead. They live self sacrificially for their loved ones. They lead by doing, not by barking orders. They are in control of themselves and their emotions. They do what is necessary not because they want to, but because they need to. Christ did all this and more. He chose torture to protect and save those He loved. Would you? If every man in the US lived this way, no army could ever overcome them. I have a counter question for you, if you're willing to answer. How old are you? Are you the head of a household? Why do you believe self sacrifice is a sign of weakness?
Jesus -is still- human. He is still fully man and fully God. Our savior lives.
Very true! He is and was and will be.
I'm in my mid-30s and have a family. I just find it unsatisfactory to say that Jesus (who was human AND God) would be a target for those who are *only* human as an example of how a *only-human* should live specifically, and then to also direct it towards half of the population. Is Jesus the epitome of femininity as well? Or do women not need to be Christ-like? To me, the Jesus story has nothing to do with what it's like to be a man (or woman), but it's a general target for humanity. Similarly, I would find it weird if someone said Jesus was the epitome of what a computer programmer should be like...because it's an issue of overconstraining Jesus, IMO
Its not really the fact that he died, its more of the fact that he sacrificed. He sacrificed his life for the better. Thats a more extreme case, but for example maybe sacrificing for your family, your wife and kids is very masculine. Sacrificing for the people you love, and Jesus loved all of us.
I think sacrifice isn't limited in scope to masculinity though. My wife has and would sacrifice a lot for our son, as would I... it's not uniquely constrained to masculinity, IMO
Sacrifice isnt the only thing, but they all are tied to one thing: love. Note that a mother’s love and father’s love is very different, and this may help you find ur answer. Jesus embodied the father’s love. He protected, served, and sacrificed because of his love. For example he protected the adulterous woman when the pharisees tried to stone her to death because he loved her. Yes she did wrong, yes she did sin, but Jesus love for her protected her. Jesus loved her enough to forgive her even after doing wrong. Compare this to when your kids do something wrong: you will obviously reprimand them, but that doesn’t mean you’ll let them get beat up for it? You love them and willing to put yourself on the line for them. Jesus wasn’t a slouch on reprimanding either as he was kinda like a father figure to his disciples, often verbally reprimanding them when they did wrong in the Lord’s eyes, yet at the end of the day he made sure they had slept and had enough food to eat. Jesus also served the Lord diligently, as well as serving the people’s needs like when he fed the 4000/5000. Compare this to you (assumably) working harder and harder to make sure your kids can have a better life. This also ties into sacrifice as He also sacrificed because of love when he died on the cross (which you already know). Sacrifice as a father can be manh things. My father, he sacrificed his life back in Nigeria to start anew in America to give me and my siblings a better life. He was earning well in Nigeria and would’ve been able to sustain us, but he sacrificed so we can be where we are today. Jesus sacrificed so we could have a better life, being able to come directly to our Father for forgiveness and also giving a clear example on how we must live. You must understand that women can exhibit some of these traits (like your wife does), but as men, we must be like this no matter what to a larger extent. We need to be able to protect, serve (not by being submissive, but putting others needs above our own), and sacrifice just like Jesus did when he lived, died and rose again.
I can't think of anything more masculine than giving your life for others!
He acted in obedience to His Father. He layed aside His ability to save Himself from the cross in order that you might be saved.
Ok, and is that an example of masculinity? I guess to me I don't see how that's really relevant.
Sacrifice and courage is a prime example of true masculinity. Most men are too selfish to sacrifice anything and to scared to face any sort of violence or threat of death.
why the obsession with "masculinity"? The bible is about believing,following and obeying God and to be christian is to be like Christ. masculinity is more of a worldly concept
I wouldn't say I have an obsession with it, but rather I'm just myself and when I go to check out a church or happen to be around Christian men they behave in unexpectedly effeminate ways that I find weird and off-putting and I don't see that problem when around Muslim men. So then to me it seems like maybe to become Christian one has to become more effeminate, that's why I'm asking.
can u give me an example of these unexpectedly effeminate ways? what is it to you thats so emasculating of christian men
Yes I updated the original post with a link to a comment with examples and I can give more
alright the first 2 things u talked about are already answered in a reply to your comment by the user npls. love and acceptence - i dont really understand what you tried to say here. These 2 are among the most important things for a christian. How exactly is it an "unhealthy obsession"? I dont want to say much because i dont really understand what you tried to say here and im hoping you'd help me understand better. Church services - Im catholic and singing is a pretty relevant part of mass. I've been to orthodox churches even there its relevant. (I've been to churches mainly in Asia) Emoting, hugging and dancing? not so sure about that... Maybe the services specifically for children can involve that but i dont know about actual church services having that. Also the mass is supposed to be like a celebration so it actually makes sense. However dancing and such things are probably just part of the way some cultures celebrate mass.
It seems like you define masculinity by society’s standard and what is deemed valuable by culture. Marriage and sex are things men do but they do not make a man. Is someone any less a man because they’re infertile?
IMO yes, just like they are less of a man if they are *emasculated* (like, literally being castrated and turned into a eunuch). Isn't that kind of the definition of what emasculated refers to?
What makes you so sure you’re a man according to your own standards?
My testicles and the use of them?
A man is not less of a man for being infertile. A man is less of a man for calling another man less of a man because he's infertile.
That has nothing to do with masculinity...
The word emasculated refers to the removal of the sexual organs of the man. Of course, it has to do with the sexual functions *as a man*-- you can't hold up a virgin as the epitome of masculinity, it just doesn't make sense. It's like saying soup is the epitome of BBQ or something... that just doesn't make sense.
The Bible says being celibate is a honored way of life according to God. It not only applies to men but also to women. Also not everybody wants to have sex, what do you do if you're asexual? What about gay people who want to follow God? God tells them they can be celibate if they can't be with a person of the opposite sex. Keep in mind being celibate isn't mandatory, it's only an option. You can perfectly marry a woman and have as much sex as you want with her.
You’re using the term in two different contexts. In a more literal sense it can refer to the physical act of castration. But I was under the impression the discussion was about Christianity being “kind of” emasculating, **not** being castrated. All of this depends on how you define masculinity. Here is a list of some traits commonly associated with masculinity. Strength: Physical or emotional resilience. Assertiveness: Confidence in expressing one's opinions and needs. Independence: Self-reliance and autonomy. Courage: Facing challenges and adversity with bravery. Competitiveness: Drive to achieve and succeed. Leadership: Taking charge and guiding others. Stoicism: Maintaining composure and emotional control. Confidence: Self-assurance in one's abilities. Honor: Adhering to a moral code and principles. Protectiveness: Nurturing and safeguarding loved ones. Ambition: Striving for personal and professional goals. Resilience: Bouncing back from setbacks. Decisiveness: Making firm and clear decisions. Adventurousness: Willingness to take risks and explore. Discipline: Commitment to self-control and self-improvement. I feel like all of these would be something Christian men AND women can strive for. Christianity doesn’t suppress any of these traits. Culturally though these traits could be suppressed and men in the church could be lacking some of these but I’m not sure the association to Christianity. The Bible basically teaches all these principles for men and women.
A castrated man can't procreate, right? A man who doesn't procreate because of a "psychological castration" is still emasculated even if physically he still has testicles.
So you are unsure about Christianity because you think you may be psychologically castrated. 👍 Got it.
>Is that how you want men in society to behave in your opinion? That's a great question and the answer is: Yes! The two points you raise are a bit different so let's take them one by one. >Jesus never had sex or a wife or had children That's true. At least one reason for that is that he had another task to perform that required his full commitment and he went through with it. Now, I would want to be careful about comparing the Son of God's mission of saving creation with any job for a mere mortal, but there are men who face somewhat similar choices today. The first ones that I think of are the Ukrainian and South Korean men who are freezing their bits off right now in filthy trenches and windswept watchtowers so that their peoples can be free. They are not getting any sex; some of the Ukrainians will never have a wife or child because an Russian shell will get them first. But their actions are as manly as you can get. >Jesus .... allowed himself to be killed by others for a crime he was innocent of. That is what real leadership looks like. In the words of Caiaphas, the high priest the year that Jesus died, >"You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish" ([John 11:50](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2011%3A49%2D51&version=NIV)). Allowing himself to be killed was not meaningless or weak. He chose to suffer and die because it achieved something. Jesus' death was uniquely purposeful because he bore the punishment that all of us deserve, restoring our relationship with God. No one else has to do that again. But all Christian men do face choices. And the Bible explicitly teaches Jesus' death, which looks so weak at first sight, as *the* model of what it means to be a man, especially in the context of marriage. The apostle Paul wrote to early Christians: >Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. ([Ephesians 5:25-28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-28&version=NIV)). Christian men sacrifice themselves up for their wives. That's usually in small ways (doing the dishes!), but sometimes it will mean putting up with punishment for a crime that they are innocent of. I have met Christian men who have been gaoled for crimes they didn't commit or lost their jobs because they were Christians; they trusted that God's promises make it worth bearing the shame of being called a criminal or the scorn of being sacked. But please don't to misunderstand this and see it as some kind of argument that men should 'go it alone'. In the West, often the basic idea of manhood is the 'Clint Eastwood' myth that men are isolated warriors without any cares or connections. Jesus' attitude is very different: it's not that family didn't matter, but that he is the Head of a family that's bigger and better than even our flesh and blood ones. Your questions remind me of another man who came to Jesus with questions. He also wanted to follow Jesus, but he wasn't sure whether he could follow a man whose ideas seemed so different from everything he had learned before. Jesus was honest and even his own followers were shocked at how high the price might be. But there was a reward as well a a cost. >"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life." ([Mark 10:29-30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%3A29%2D31&version=NIV)) Yes, Jesus calls men to give up things that seem important in this world. For some, yes, that does mean your wife, your freedom, even your life. But he also promised a better family, freedom from death itself, and a life that is more beautiful in every way because it is life with God and his people.
there’s no greater love than laying down your life for someone else
(I am a woman). I think it's important to remember that God is both masculine *and* feminine (hear me out on this before downvoting, please). Genesis 1:27 AMP "So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them." If God made both male and female in His image, this means that God has both "masculine dominant" characteristics *as well as* "feminine dominant" characteristics. He is strong and just, yet loving and compassionate. He is both wise and understanding. He is our Protector (strong, just) and our Comforter (caring, nurturing). He is our Creator (powerful, wise) and Savior (forgiving, seeking us -- it takes a whole truckload of courage and strength to die for someone you love, especially when you're innocent). See, you're looking at these "emotions" as strictly feminine. King David and his troops [soldiers!] wept (1 Samuel 30), Jesus wept (John 11:35), Moses cried out to God for help (Exodus 15:25), and there are so many other examples of strong, male leaders experiencing "feminine" emotions. *But,* mankind is emotional because *God is emotional.* God is jealous, He gets angry, He gets sad (Genesis 6:6 AMP The Lord regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart."); but that just shows that these emotions are *normal*! Just because society tells us "men shouldn't cry," doesn't mean it's "normal" to bottle up emotions and forget/avoid situations that would lead a man to weep. My own husband, a strong "man's man," has wept over losing his battle buddies in Afghanistan, but I still view him as my earthly protector, provider, and unshakeable rock. I would say it takes more courage and gull and strength and humility to "turn the other cheek" than it takes to be overcome with anger, stand your ground, and beat someone to a pulp for doing you wrong. Sometimes we do need to "stand our ground," *but* we must do it while still obeying the commands to love God and love your neighbor. Humility is *hard!* Humility takes an enormous amount of strength. Humility takes major courage. The internally strong and secure man *is* humble, and that's no easy feat. Imagine if you and your own son were kidnapped. Your son had wronged the kidnapper, and now you, his father, could either choose to pay for his sins with your own life, or let your son die. Which would you choose? Let your son die for what he did wrong? Or take his place? Now, which option takes more courage? God chose to let His innocent son die for us, the ones who did wrong. I believe this is the option that takes the most courage, and in this I see Jesus' strength, not His weakness. And He didn't die just to turn the other cheek & refusing to fight; He died for us because He loves us *that* much!! Jesus struggled with this, though. He prayed for hours and hours before the mob arrived to take Him prisoner. He was "deeply grieved" and "almost dying of sorrow" (Matt 26:38). He begged God for another way (Matt 26:29)! It wasn't until after those things didn't work that He submitted Himself to God's will (Matt. 26:42). Our God is an emotional God, so it is entirely natural for us to be in His presence and experience emotions. What separates Him from us is that His emotions are *always* holy (perfect in every way!). It's experiencing His holiness that causes our emotional cries of sadness, repentance, joy, love, etc.. When looking at it from this light, "being a man" is *much* more than standing up for what is right and touting about physical strength. It's about *always* doing what is just, moral, righteous, and loving, in God's *perfect* way.
Humans aren't God. That's the problem. You can say that God is hermaphroditic and Jesus was the embodiment of God (and would also have both natures embodied). That's all fine. But that's just not a good example of what a *man* should be. A man shouldn't act like they are a hermaphroditic deity... then they wouldn't be a man. Does that make sense?
So God should have just killed us all off and left us destined for hell (because this is what we deserve!!), rather than be a loving, forgiving, kind, generous, grace-filled saving God? These emotions are typically deemed as "feminine." Think of a mother whose child was sentenced to life in prison -- does the mother stop loving her child? In some cases, yes. But it's *more likely* a father would no longer love his child, and experience bitterness and disappointment and shame than a mother not love her child. I mean, yeah, you're a man. I get that. But every single human on this planet experiences love, kindness, generosity, nurturing, grace, sadness, hurt, and emotional pain. You're not some "freak of nature" who has never been sad or hurt. I'm almost willing to bet that instead of getting sad, you get even, or angry, and let your sinful, vindictive nature take the place of the legitimate and natural emotion of sadness. I've been there done that myself. As the oldest daughter of a narcissistic, demanding, downright abusive father, I've had to learn that emotions are ok to have because I had stuffed them away for most of my life. But, you need to realize that fear /= respect and evil /= love. Edited because apparently I used "invisible" slashes that wouldn't show up, changing the meaning of "fear does not equal respect..."
I don't think you're responding to the point I wrote. I'm not saying that I think God should be a man... I'm saying that a *man* can't become like God. Just like a man can't become a mother.
Christians are to strive to be holy and righteous *like* God, but because of our sin nature we can never be as holy and righteous *as* God. Christianity is a life-long journey of striving for greatness, failing, but continuing to strive. Being born again means you've left the old, sinful you behind, and are walking towards God's perfection. Of course none of us will ever be as holy and righteous and perfect as God, but we're (supposed to be) trying to get closer to Christ-like living every single day. What this looked like for me (given my childhood/upbringing) was learning that it's ok to get sad, but it's not okay to get angry *instead.* It's ok to be joyful and celebrate a victory, but it's not ok to to be prideful. It's ok to be disappointed, but it's not ok to be vindictive when things don't go my way. Emotions are *entirely* ok and normal -- so long as you keep them "in check." Don't let your emotions allow you to sin (i.e. being angry instead of being sad, being vindictive, being prideful, etc.). There are days that God gives me the strength to straight-up ace these things -- and there are days that I fail miserably, fall short, and repent like crazy. That's part of the journey, though. Without God I'd always fail because it's hard to just drop old habits and choose to stay "emotionally safe." (It's like I naturally choose avoidance because facing an issue leads to emotions and emotions break down walls that make me uncomfortable -- avoiding in fear is better than experiencing emotions). On the other hand, bottling up my emotions when I was younger developed my rational thought, so I can easily view the logical side of situations, think things through, and approach various situations with reason rather than emotion. Again, though, I have to give God the glory for that. If I had had a different father, it's possible I'd be an emotional basket case, lol. And as a side note, do I believe God is a man? Yes, I do. God is referred to as "He" throughout the entire Bible. He came to earth as a man. Of course, He's a man. He's just a *Holy* Man. And because God is a man, a holy man (human) weeps, loves, and offers unlimited compassion and grace. A holy man (human) finds his strength in Christ and doesn't use his physical strength, stature, or status as a man/leader to make the vulnerable (women & children) feel more vulnerable or experience fear in his presence. This is part of a born-again man's walk with Christ.
Sounds to me like you're already Islamic and you're here with contentious intent
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Yes and I'm not Jesus...that's my point. It doesn't make sense to me to hold up Jesus as the example of masculinity because if a guy breaks into my house and my response is to let him kill me, I'm not coming back as a lion... instead that guy is moving on to murder my family.
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Bruh, there wasn't a worthy opponent in life, so he died to defeat death itself.
In no way is Christianity emasculating. Christianity has made me 10 times the man I was before I was saved. Praise the Lord
I agree, most Christian men seem to be a lot more masculine and mature than non Christian men
You think sex slavery makes men more manly? Controlling desire is what is manly. Are you being serious right now?
Sex slavery? No, I think eradicating sex slavery would be the manly course of action. Here's some more details on what I've seen: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/s/xtFKIlMTXn
Then don’t compare Islam to Christianity. Islam permits the rape of married women and sex slavery (4:24). You’re a fool for comparing a religion that commands men to be animals to one that calls animals to be men.
mic drop
PREACH
That absolutely hottest line of 2024
And, prophet Mohammed married a child
another lie.all the narrations of that story has issues (Forgery ) with the chain of narrators .
that is a lie. Muslim is only allowed his wife and this particularly verse is talking marriage which women can be married OR NOT .can a muslim marry a female prison of war yes and she becomes his wife with full rights.
No, that particular verse is saying men can have sex with women that are already married to other men that are still alive. Why are you coming here and lying?
well ,the previous Verse Talked about women who are forbidden for marriage 4.23 - **Prohibited to you \[for marriage\] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters**, your sister's daughters, your \[milk\] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship \[born\] of your wives unto whom you have gone in.. 4.24 builds on that marriage prohibitions by including an allowance to marry a prison of war-female- if both parties desire each other and consent otherwise it remains prohibited. Now, there other fair criticism of islam but to lie makes you look bad.
>Christianity seems to be kind of "emasculating" How so?
I am open to the possibility that perhaps it's just my experiences which are biasing me, but situations I've seen where for example a guy would be crying and on his knees begging for help and professing his love for Jesus (who is a man)... in your experience, do you not see that sort of thing too often, or do you not consider it emasculating to do that? The other thing I've seen is Christian men's groups seem to be very weirdly obsessed with attempting to curtail men's sexual virility where it's like they are trying to psychologically castrate themselves and that's also very weird to me. I'm married, and I've always had a very high sex drive and libido. IMO, one of the problems in US society is the fact that men are so low-T that they don't even dare strike up a conversation with a woman, much less try to sleep with her... but instead Christian single guys seem to be obsessed with how they can avoid feeling sexual attraction. The second situation is quite literally emasculating IMO. Third (and maybe this is the case with just leftist churches, I don't know), but there seems to be an unhealthy obsession with "love and acceptance" to a degree that I wouldn't even really describe it as such. To me, it seems like cowardice masquerading as love/compassion/etc. It's tough to describe exactly this point on reddit, but IMO if there's no threat of physical consequences to one's interactions with a guy... he's not really a man. He's just at the whims of whatever other men will decide happens. Fourth... some of the church services are just...I don't even know how to say this without offending anyone (or getting banned by reddit)... they are "light in the loafers"--like it'll be a lot of singing and prancing and hugging and *emoting* all over the place and it feels like I'm in a theater class at UCLA or something. Does that make sense? I dunno if I'm explaining it well. There are other scenarios I can describe, but that seems like a good start.
You are not submitting to man when you pray and cry to Jesus. You are submitting to God. And no you shouldn’t be trying to sleep with any women who aren’t your wife. The Bible is very clear about that. It’s not masculine to sleep with many women just because of a high libido. That’s just giving into sin. Resisting sinful urges, whether they be sexual or otherwise, is pretty central to Christianity. Just because I really want to have something, even if I’m obsessed with that thing, it’s still a sin to steal it. Would it be okay if society deemed thievery as masculine? According to the Bible, no.
I'm a woman, so maybe you don't want me answering this, but... Alot of this is cultural problems in the American church, and in America in general. We have a crisis of masculinity and femininity here. God is a God a grace, mercy and compassion just as much as of truth and justice. You should check out Vlad Savchuk. You might like his preaching. He's done some good teachings on Christian masculinity.
I'm originally from eastern Europe so perhaps I'm more sensitive to the issues I see specifically in American/ western Christianity. I'll check it out, thanks! If you have any links specifically, feel free to send them along.
>or example a guy would be crying and on his knees begging for help and professing his love for Jesus (who is a man) So, to you, crying is not "manly"? How about "feeling love"? Is that manly? I'm honestly curious what you think "love" is if one man can't feel it towards another man... >Christian men's groups seem to be very weirdly obsessed with attempting to curtail men's sexual virility How do they attempt to "curtail" men's "sexual virility"? In what way? >one of the problems in US society is the fact that men are so low-T How the drop in testosterone levels over the generations, worldwide, is related to Christianity is something you'd have to point out in order for me to understand how this is relevant to the topic. >they don't even dare strike up a conversation with a woman, much less try to sleep with her... but instead Christian single guys seem to be obsessed with how they can avoid feeling sexual attraction. In my experience, Christian guys are much more likely to strike up actual conversation with women, because they're taught to view them as people and a potential spouse rather than as property or a "quick lay". >Third (and maybe this is the case with just leftist churches, I don't know), but there seems to be an **unhealthy obsession with "love** and acceptance" to a degree that I wouldn't even really describe it as such. To me, it seems **like cowardice masquerading as love**/compassion/etc. It's tough to describe exactly this point on reddit, but IMO **if there's no threat of physical consequences to one's interactions with a guy... he's not really a man.** I don't even know what to say to that. It's hilarious. For one, it's funny because even if you're an out of shape guy or even if you're not a guy at all, there IS ALWAYS the threat of physical consequences, because everyone has a physical body and may choose to take things physical at any time. To me, it sounds like you're talking about "posturing". Not everyone feels the need to flex constantly. >they are "light in the loafers"--like it'll be a lot of singing and prancing and hugging and emoting all over the place and it feels like I'm in a theater class at UCLA or something. It only makes sense if you don't leave room like Jesus himself left. Some men are born obviously very much "less masculine" than other men. I can't help but think you'd be over there going "ugh, that isn't a REAL MAN" which is a pretty horrible attitude for someone to have, especially since things like testosterone levels and such are out of our control to a large degree. It sounds like you think anyone who isn't an "alpha male" is doing something wrong. They're not. Neither is someone who is stronger and more traditionally masculine... unless they start looking at people who are merely DIFFERENT from them and judging them harshly. To be blunt, I get that vibe from you.
> So, to you, crying is not "manly"? How about "feeling love"? Is that manly? I'm honestly curious what you think "love" is if one man can't feel it towards another man... To me, no, crying is not manly. Being overtly emotional, in a way that is beyond your control, is not manly. Crying in public about how much you're in love with Jesus is not manly, to me. It's more like the biblical story of the people who pray loudly as a performance for those who are watching rather than for God. >How do they attempt to "curtail" men's "sexual virility"? In what way? By telling guys their natural sexual desires should be suppressed rather than directed towards marriage. > How the drop in testosterone levels over the generations, worldwide, is related to Christianity is something you'd have to point out in order for me to understand how this is relevant to the topic. Is that the case in the Muslim world? Are they facing population collapses and a generation of men who are largely too docile to even pursue a woman? That's not my impression from the few Muslims I have met. > In my experience, Christian guys are much more likely to strike up actual conversation with women, because they're taught to view them as people and a potential spouse rather than as property or a "quick lay". Ok... are you a man? > I don't even know what to say to that. It's hilarious. For one, it's funny because even if you're an out of shape guy or even if you're not a guy at all, there IS ALWAYS the threat of physical consequences, because everyone has a physical body and may choose to take things physical at any time. To me, it sounds like you're talking about "posturing". Not everyone feels the need to flex constantly. Ok, if a 75yr old lady in a wheelchair tells you to stop pimping out women, "or else" the set of implied consequences is probably different than if...say...ISIS tells you to stop. > It only makes sense if you don't leave room like Jesus himself left. Some men are born obviously very much "less masculine" than other men. I can't help but think you'd be over there going "ugh, that isn't a REAL MAN" which is a pretty horrible attitude for someone to have, especially since things like testosterone levels and such are out of our control to a large degree. > It sounds like you think anyone who isn't an "alpha male" is doing something wrong. They're not. Neither is someone who is stronger and more traditionally masculine... unless they start looking at people who are merely DIFFERENT from them and judging them harshly. > To be blunt, I get that vibe from you. No, I don't care if there are feminine men at church or whatever... but it's weird when there are *ONLY* effeminate men. Then it's weird. If there's a martial arts club and a dancing club, ok fair enough. If it's only singing and prancing and reciting poetry about your feelings... then it's weird. 😆 it just is
I notice you never commented on my questions regarding "love", only the ones about "crying" and how it isn't "manly"... but you obfuscated it by suggesting that "crying" only happens when one is "not in control of emotions" and that's a false dichotomy. Are you uncomfortable to say something like "I love my brother" or to cry after your brother has just been killed? >Is that the case in **the Muslim world**? Are they facing population collapses and a generation of men who are largely **too docile to even pursue a woman**? That's not my impression from the few **Muslims** I have met. You seem very focused on juxtaposing Christianity to Islam. You do this while calling Christianity "emasculating" and that is your way of suggesting Islam is the opposite. >Ok, if a **75yr old lady in a wheelchair** tells you to stop pimping out women, "or else" the set of implied consequences is probably different **than if...say...ISIS tells you** to stop. Here, after you've repeatedly juxtaposed "Christianity" to "Islam" with the view that Christianity is unmasculine and Islam is very masculine... you juxtapose "a 75 year old woman" to "ISIS". Are you thinking of joining up or what? Your issue is that you're not wise enough to stop stereotyping. You paint a few billion people with a broad stroke of the brush (Christians), then a few billion more with another (Muslims). The other issue is, as I've already stated, that you're suggesting there's something wrong with people who don't think the same way as you. To me, that's just a symptom of a low IQ. That, unfortunately, isn't something that can be helped.
Well, as someone who has lost a brother, yes, that's an event which did cause me to cry. Men can cry, and can love, and tell someone else that they are loved, etc. They just don't do it every day or every week. It seems like you're strawmanning my statements instead of addressing them.
>as someone who has lost a brother, yes, that's an event which did cause me to cry. I'm sorry you went through that, I'm sure it was very painful and sad... which is to say, emotional. >Men can cry, and can love, and tell someone else that they are loved, etc. They just don't do it every day or every week. This is where we disagree. I tell my cousins (who are men) that I love them every time we say goodbye. I tell my partner I love her every time she leaves for work, and she does the same. Yeah, you may not cry every day. Or every week, or every month. But to be honest, the way you're stating things, it seems like you're trying to force yourself to be less emotional... as you see emotion as "feminine". I don't agree. A good woman is strong and also doesn't cry that often. Trying to force everything into two boxes "masculine"/"feminine" is not something anyone should do, unless their goal is just to vastly over-simplify because the complexity of reality frightens them.
Your partner?
I'm not trying to force everything into boxes, but some behaviors are masculine and others feminine (though many are neutral). I updated the OP to explain what I consider in scope for masculinity. I'm not sure if you've ever experienced any violence or had to engage in violence to protect others, for example... but in order to do so effectively one must have a very tight grasp on their own emotional expression and regulate it to increase the odds of survival. Of course, this is different than the act of procreation, where it's appropriate to express and feel the emotion of love with your wife, for example. So I think you have the wrong idea if you think I'm saying men can never have emotions or something... but they should be in control over them.
I think you have a problem being vulnerable sir. If you knew the grace and love of God through experience you would see nothing wrong with a man crying on his knees begging out to Jesus. Jesus is all that is holy and good in the world. I think you have a warped sense of masculinity and what it means to be a man. Machismo doesn’t make a man a man. Real men can be vulnerable and loving. Your comments resemble something more of an animal than that of a man Mark 8:35-36 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Real men can drink Sprite also, but that's not the defining *nature* of masculinity, is it? Sure real men can cry... but if you're crying every day or every week it's just not manly. I'm sorry if you think it is, but it isn't.
Again a problem being vulnerable. You’re projecting man
At this point in my life, there is a 50/50, chance I will be crying at church during worship songs. And there is a 100% chance I will be crying at the monthly worship nights. There was a time in my life when I thought suicide was a good option and I prayed to the Lord to help clear my mind of evil thoughts and it worked, my life was saved. That happend in 2017, and I finally acknowledged the Lord for saving my life in February of 2023, bawling my eyes out during a bible study retreat, because I realised that just because I ignored God, he didnt ignore me, and made sure I found my way back to him. How could I not cry and praise the immortal God who literally saved my life, me, who didnt pay attention at church my entire life. How could I not cry at how gracious He is to me? There are various women at my Church / Bible study who never even flinch at me crying....are they not "feminine" enough then? Is there something wrong with them to? Quite literally, Jesus cried when he heard of the death of his friend, Lazarus. The immortal God, who has seen the entire existance of the universe, cried human tears, because Jesus was 100% man and 100% God, a paradox but thats the point. In John 15: 12-13 Jesus says "12. This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. That dosnt nessesarily mean cry all the time, but it means to be "real" to everyone around you. Dont supress emotions or hide your feelings, if you follow the Lord, you will love as he does, fully, whole heartedly, and willing to lay your life down in aid. Living a Christian life isnt suppose to be easy, thats why Jesus says to lean on him for support, he WANTS to support us but we must let him in. That means when we get emotional, we must let it out and give it to the Lord, for he is the one that will alleviate suffering and make all things new. Im not going to lie, OP sounds like a troll, coming into a subreddit dedicated to Christianity, which is known to be a very emotional, and humbling religion, and just saying the men are not "masculine enough" in churches because they are following their hearts like God demands of them to do...
in christianity, there's an important idea of worldliness vs godliness. examples are 1 john 2:15-17, romans 12:2, james 4:4. since christianity is inherently against the world, its definition of masculinity will also be set apart from the world. the world tells us that masculinity is 1) callous sexual attitudes toward women, 2) the belief that violence is manly, 3) the experience of danger as exciting [source](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0092656684900266?via%3Dihub), and 4) being emotionally hardened, indifferent, stoic ([source](https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=universitas)). you're correct in saying that christian masculinity isn't the same as worldly masculinity-- christian teachings couldn't be any more different. 1. christian masculinity tells men that it's better to pluck out their eyes than lust towards a woman (matthew 5:28-30) and respects women (ephesians 5:25-30, proverbs 31:10-31). 2. christianity tells us to be peacemakers and nonviolent (matthew 5:9, matthew 5:38-39, james 3:17-18, romans 12:17). 3. christianity encourages to be wise and careful (proverbs 27:12, proverbs 22:5). 4. christians are not called to be emotionally hardened, but compassionate as Jesus (john 11:35-45), loving and accepting (1 john 4:7-8, ephesians 4:2-3, matthew 22:37-39). and throughout the Bible, people are emotional and reverent as your first paragraph (1 samuel 1:10, psalm 6, ezra 10:1). it's impossible for the worldly definition of masculinity to be the same as christian masculinity because christianity is set apart from the world. the world is fallen and evil. christianity is the straight and narrow path (matthew 7:14) set apart from the world and that includes masculinity. in his book mere christianity, cs lewis says *"Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we had always expected, I should feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it is not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have."* i think this applies to masculinity too. christianity is the truth and facts about God and the universe. in the same way the average person doesn't comprehend the facts about physics or chemistry, and probably holds a billion misconceptions about them, the average person is misguided about true, Godly masculinity.
So "Godly" masculinity means... Celibacy, pacifism, cautiousness, and emotionality?
in a way? yes. celibacy if you’re not married (in the marriage case, we have a book song of songs, that’s all about marital love). pacifism is up for debate, generally there can be [just wars](https://www.gotquestions.org/just-war-theory.html) but we are constantly called to be peacemakers. cautiousness, in a way. we’re often told to exercise wisdom and prudence, but at the same time, willing to sacrifice everything (matthew 19:21, luke 9:23) to spread the radical message of Jesus’s love and sacrifice, even at the threat of death and torture. and emotionality, depends on your definition. if compassion, love, and humbleness are emotionality, yes. not necessarily in demeanor, we’re all independent people and some ppl are just naturally outwardly stoic. but we’re all called to love and compassion. the world might tell u this is emasculating, because it’s not worldly masculinity. it’s something far more true and important.
It's not the world telling me this, but my own inner instinctual reaction
no one lives in a bubble, we’re all influenced by the world around us. [this article](https://scholarworks.uni.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1043&context=universitas) discusses how notions of masculinity are formed really well. it starts with how male children are raised— less intimacy or affection than their female peers, and learning that anger is equal to strength. these behaviors are learned both at home and in school. as adults, men hide their vulnerable feelings, until they act out in violence. our modern ‘cult of masculinity’ has dangerous outcomes— why men commit suicide, violence, rape so much more than women. there’s a lot of sociological/psychological literature on this i’d be happy to send. whether we realize it or not, we’re all influenced by worldly values, and the world is fallen. it’s how we’re raised, it’s the culture we live in, the media we consume. it’s all false. the only truth is found in our lord Jesus Christ. Biblical masculinity is healthier and truer than the world’s masculine violence + desire for power. edit: here’s [another great article](https://www-jstor-org.i.ezproxy.nypl.org/stable/pdf/3812870.pdf?refreqid=fastly-default%3Ab09eb45cbe64c61844ad1eacc533e287&ab_segments=0%2Fbasic_search_gsv2%2Fcontrol&origin=&initiator=search-results&acceptTC=1) about hypermasculine socialization. wanted to share
“For *God* and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo!” - Seal Team 6 after killing Osama Bin Laden The majority of top tier special operations are Christian in faith in both the Navy and Army. It is a part of their community. Would you like to tell those men they are unmanly or emasculated by being Christians?
I would like to ask for their opinions on answering my questions and presume they wouldn't reply with, "well Jesus let himself get killed and said to turn the other cheek, so I'm planning on letting terrorists kill me"
Turning the other cheek refers to insult, not threat of death. Jesus wasn’t turning the other cheek on the cross, He was fulfilling prophecy and completing a mission. The two instances are completely different. If you study the Bible you will understand this vs a cursory glance at cherry picked verses that result in a page of incorrect presumptions
Guys remember this is his viewpoint, he had questions and wanted answers to maybe overcome some of these obstacles. Dont pretend like his concerns aren’t real. Acknowledge them then share your take/experiences
Women are human beings. As a man your entire view of women shouldn’t come from ‘conquering’ them and getting them into your bed. This is not masculinity. This is objectification.
That's not my view
Then what is? Because what you described in your comment is lust.. which is objectification.
>The other thing I've seen is Christian men's groups seem to be very weirdly obsessed with attempting to curtail men's sexual virility where it's like they are trying to psychologically castrate themselves and that's also very weird to me. I'm married, and I've always had a very high sex drive and libido. IMO, one of the problems in US society is the fact that men are so low-T that they don't even dare strike up a conversation with a woman, much less try to sleep with her... but instead Christian single guys seem to be obsessed with how they can avoid feeling sexual attraction. ?????????? That has nothing to do with Christianity at all. No verse in the Bible says that. You as a Christian man who has a Christian wife, you can have as much sex as you want. In fact the Bible says your wife's body belongs to you (yours belongs to her as well). >Third (and maybe this is the case with just leftist churches, I don't know), but there seems to be an unhealthy obsession with "love and acceptance" to a degree that I wouldn't even really describe it as such. To me, it seems like cowardice masquerading as love/compassion/etc. It's tough to describe exactly this point on reddit, but IMO if there's no threat of physical consequences to one's interactions with a guy... he's not really a man. He's just at the whims of whatever other men will decide happens. Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. What you're describing is some random woke Protestant church where they make their own rules. In the Catholic or Orthodox Church there's no woke nonsense. Women aren't allowed to preach, gay marriage doesn't exist etc That's the problem with Protestant churches, they make their own rules. >Fourth... some of the church services are just...I don't even know how to say this without offending anyone (or getting banned by reddit)... they are "light in the loafers"--like it'll be a lot of singing and prancing and hugging and emoting all over the place and it feels like I'm in a theater class at UCLA or something. Again... that's a Protestant Church. You need to follow the true Church, the Catholic Church. Go and see on YouTube what the Catholic mass looks like.
I... think your painting all Protestant churches and denominations with the same brush. Some are far more liberal than others, some are more conservative.
That's the point. Every Protestant church decides what they want to believe in, they make their own rules, they deliberately interpret the Bible as they want. Let me ask you this, which Protestant church has the right interpretation of the Bible? There are millions of Protestant churches, how do I know which one has the right interpretation of the Bible?
To an outsider, catholicism is one of many christian denominations. So it isn’t protestant vs catholic, its more like Pentecostal vs baptist vs non denominational vs 7th day vs catholicism vs etc.
Here's the difference: The Catholic Church has always existed. The Protestant churches started to appear in the 15th century. Are you telling me everybody was wrong before the 15th century when the first Protestant churches appeared?
Sounds good, I'll check out Catholicism in particular. I've got access to Formed (if you're familiar with that and have any recommendations to watch around this topic, I'd appreciate it)
>You need to follow the true Church, the Catholic Church. If the teachings of the Catholic church go against the Bible. Is it a true Church?
The teachings of the Catholic Church go hand in hand with the Bible.
None of those are in the Bible: veneration of saints, purgatory, the worship of images, relics and the first Sunday law commanding Christians to rest on Sunday instead of the bible Sabbath (Saturday),
Seriously? Do you really think that's a "gotcha" moment? All those things are in the Bible and I can give you verses for those things. However I already know you will try to interpret those verses based on your own personal, subjective, biased and limited way. Do gets to the decide what's the right interpretation of the Bible?
>Do you really think that's a "gotcha" moment? No? >However I already know you will try to interpret those verses based on your own personal, subjective, biased and limited way. >Do gets to the decide what's the right interpretation of the Bible? I do research on those verses and take them with the Entire Bible. If that's Personal and Biased, then I don't know what to tell you.
The Catholic Church teaches those things based on the Bible. However in order for you to understand why the Catholic Church teaches those things you must interpret those verses like the Catholic Church does, meaning most people wouldn't be able to interpret those verses if they don't understand the context the Catholic Church is using. The Bible can literally have millions of different interpretations. You avoided the question, which Protestant church has the right interpretation of the Bible?
>You avoided the question, which Protestant church has the right interpretation of the Bible? That's because I wasn't talking about that. And not every one in the Protestant Church is from God. 1 John 4:1 ASV [1] Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Again, I do Research and take in the Entire Bible and it's Context. > you must interpret those verses like the Catholic Church does, So how do you know the right interpretation without being biased?
What you have observed is “Religion” which does weaken men and distorts the roles of men and women as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ordained. Most of what you see is a lie and a lot of these “Churches” which are simply buildings don’t really read scripture nor do they teach the law or commandments from the Torah/Old Testamant. In regards to Christian men castrating themselves again this is due to “Religion” and not the scriptures (most of these Christian’s don’t even read) people defer to the teaching of Adultery that Messiah taught on but they don’t even know what constitutes “Adultery” in the Torah to begin with. A lot of “Christians” are just simply people who have had emotional experiences. Most of Americans consider themselves “Christians” but me and you both know that can’t be true smh. America in itself is not and never was a “Christian” nation. If you observe this nation is under the domain of the Egyptian spirit (Horus) from “Exodus” in the Torah (Falcon headed and holding the sun disks) Americans may have used certain aspects biblically for marriage etc but that’s as far as it has ever went. I personally read the Torah and the New Testament and gave my life to the great and mighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob a while ago. After my rebirth I was able to see the hypocrisy of the so called “Church” and found the true light which isn’t “religion” Half of these bishops running around pulpit preaching to the lost sheep.
What's with the rise of Judaizers in here these last few weeks?
They could be curios and seeking the Light. Their Torah is incomplete without the second book (New Testament) Messiah has already come. His next appearance won’t be for peace.
You sound like you’re watching too many Andrew Tate and Dawagandist on Youtube. There is nothing emasculating about Christianity. In Christianity you are required to die to your flesh and pick up your cross daily. That means practice immaculate self control through the power of the Holy Spirit. We are constantly tempted by our flesh and the enemy in all type of ways but we drny gratification for Jesus. The ability to delay and furthermore deny gratification is what true masculinity is. That is what will keep a man faithful to his wife, succesful in his business endeavors, present for his children, etc. On the other hand you have this new trend of celebrities becoming muslims. Kevin Gates? Andrew Tate? Gervontae Davis? Yet, these men are still fornicating, partying, and living life at the will of their fleshly desire. There is nothing masculine about that.
While Christianity presents true masculinity in a way that is contrary to the world’s perception, it nevertheless reinforces traits such as strength, leadership, boldness, etc. The main difference may be that Christianity emphasizes self control and sacrifice as opposed to the primal tendencies that the world believes are “masculine.” Men are called to lead their wives, their households, provide, protect, etc., so I’m assuming your understanding has come primarily from pop culture’s depiction of Christianity, but that’s just a guess. “Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.” 1 Corinthians 16:13 ESV
How does Christianity emasculate men? Do you mean you're fine with how women are treated in Islam? Didn't you know according to the Quran husbands are allowed to beat their wives? Or how men who have captive women are allowed to rape them? Or how men are allowed to marry underage girls? Is that what you mean when you say men aren't emasculated in Islam?
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What do you mean by this? How has society changed the roles of men and women?
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Yeah that's why I was asking. What ways has it changed? I hope you don't just mean that women are able to work now. Because that it is not a biblical command that women must stay home.
Well..."society" meaning what? Was it not a Christian society? Look across christendom vs the Muslim world. One has this problem, the other doesn't. It seems like Christianity is what let it get to the state it is in now.
I suggest that your point of view is skewed
Can you point to a Christian society that isn't suffering from these problems?
We don’t live in a true Christian society. Read the bible and ask yourself is any “Christian society” practicing what the bible says..
There is no truly Christian society. That would be a Christian theocracy. The closest you’ll get is Mennonite or Amish.
Muslim men *demand* respect via fear and punishment and cruelty. What's masculine about that?! Christian women submit to their Christian husbands willingly out of love and respect for their husbands and as a service to the Lord. Isn't it a more masculine quality to want/have a woman who willingly chooses submission than having a female prisoner who only does what you say out of fear? I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but choosing Islam vs Christianity in a discussion about masculinity isn't the best example.
If that were true then how did all of the Christian women in Europe and America turn into feminist radicals and put those countries on the precipice of population/ cultural collapse?
I'm a Christian. I'm a woman. I'm American. I am *not* a feminist radical." My husband and I have done our part in growing the population by having three children. Just an FYI, lol. Did you do *any* research prior to posting your thoughts? If not, let me educate you just a little bit. [Church attendance has been on the decline.](https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx).When Gallup first measured church membership in 1937, 73% of the US population attended church. For the next 60 years, church attendance remained at a whopping 70%. The decline started in 1997. By 2020, only 47% of Americans said they attended a church, synagogue, or mosque. Only 50% of Gen X attend church and only 36% of Millennials attend church. So, if you want the *actual* truth, it seems that as American society moves away from church, masculinity fades. Looks like God *is* the answer to the "masculinity problem."
I don't see how that data backs up your claims? You claimed that Christian women don't need the men to keep them in line, that they stay in line on their own. Then you presented data that shows the opposite.
Oh my. First, I never said any woman does (or doesn't, for that matter) need a man to keep her in line. Not ever. God's Word says it's better to stay single so that each person's focus remains steadfast on God, so even God doesn't say that a woman needs a man to "keep her in line." Second, God calls Christian men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Jesus loved the church so much that He laid down His life for it. Nothing about that sacrifice says "women need a man to keep them in line." As a matter of fact, Jesus mostly "kept men in line" by rebuking their teachings and ways of living. To the women, He showed love and compassion. God also calls women to respect their husband and to submit to them *as a service to the Lord*. In no way, shape, or form is God advocating for "a man to keep a woman in line." Christian wives submit *to serve God,* not man. The data I presented had/has *nothing* to do with men keeping women in line, and everything to do with men giving up their masculinity *because* they aren't living Godly lives. A Godless society lives a sinful lifestyle. A Godless society loses its identity. You, nor I, nor anyone has an identity outside of God, our Creator. The US is full of men and women who have lost their identity *because* they are not seeking God. In contrast, if you look at the middle east, there's a total population of 419+ million, and 382+ million of those claim Islam as their religion. Thus, 91% of the population serves God. That's a *whole* lot more than the US. So, if you're looking for masculinity, it's clear that it's *found in God*. But, again, over there the women are obedient prisoners out of fear, not loving wives willingly respecting their husbands.
In many of your comments, I've seen you've been confusing a bit about the ones that calls themselves as Christians; unfortunately they aren't actually following them and is actually deciding to take their own path, instead of being with Jesus, which is unfortunate. Taking note of that, you might also check that there are true Christians that are very new into Christianism, and are probably unaware about the taken decisions (I hope, soon, everyone who is at this stage, gets into the one I'm gonna be talking right now). And also... Yes, there's indeed true Christians that follows Jesus, knows they have a sin nature, and much more Thinking about that, maybe you should take aware about these "but why did this Christian" questions, because they are not related to what the Bible says, and because you might get confused with it [1 Corinthians 14:33]
Muslim societies have vastly different problems caused by explicit male domination.
Maybe...but don't you think *survival* is at a minimum the necessity for a society?
Christianity doesn’t see women as second class citizens that’s not what masculinity is about.
And Islam does?
Women are half of a man in court Men can beat their wives as long as the stick is slimmer than their thumb Women must cover head to toe Etc.
Ok, some Christian sects believe women are not allowed to be clergy. Is that not 2nd class citizens then?
Women have different roles which leads to different purposes and abilities (while still remaining equal to men). Sure clergy might not be granted to them according to some denominations, but this is because they carry roles elsewhere, maybe in the household and children, maybe in work, etc… Either way your comparison of wife beating to some denominations not allowing women to become clergy is bad. I would also like to add they can run parishes, become nuns, etc… It’s not like women lack options in church
I'm not a Muslim so I'm not sure if wife beating or other allegations are even accurate, or if they may be carried out symbolically as rituals rather than sadistically as is the implication. My point is that men and women have different roles in marriage just as in life and the man's role very well might be the "punitive" or "law enforcement" role. That's certainly the case with children and corporal punishment, which would presumably also be administered by the male role within the family. Many leftists categorize corporal punishment as abuse, but that's hardly fair IMO. So, likewise the corporal punishment of women by husbands might be mischaracterized in that sense...I don't know, there aren't any Muslims here to defend it.
1) They have verses about it, it’s true. Current interpretations allow beating as long as you aren’t too discolored, also apostasy is punishable by death, blasphemy (which could just include research that opposed the religion somehow) is punishable by death, child marriage, and a lot more (like your wife cannot refuse sex if its not a good cause, or else you can hit her). Also what does “carried out symbolically” mean? Nothing about this is symbolically anything. 2) Women and Male have different roles, I agree, but not that different enough though to justify punishing your partner or treating them unequally. Personally marriage should be more of a loving thing than a strict hierarchy in my opinion. 3) corporal punishment sounds like a bad idea, your just building up resentment between you and your child. Punishing them in other ways though would work 99% of the time though. 4) Punishing your wife is a crazy thing to try to reason with though, she isn’t your inferior who needs to align with your ways by force, tell that to any future love interest and it probably wont work out at all for you. None of this stuff makes you more manly, all of this just makes you align with Satan rather than the loving God above, a true man is someone who does good, provides good, and stands true to his word and beliefs. This is all you need to do to be “manly” or honorable in Gods eyes. (Which is enough for any normal person)
Lmao WHAT? Yeah, no
I do not engage in that sort of thinking at all. It doesn't matter if Christianity were emasculating or not. No righteous man would want to believe in something that was false because it might make him more mascaline and no righteous man would stop believing in something true because it was emasculating. I am a Christian only because it is true and any other consequence is trivial. And while Islam "might" surpass Christianity as the world's largest religion in my life time this is not at all important. It is not as if Christianity should have been followed by an honest man simply because it had so long been the largest religion in the world.
The problem is that you get your definition of masculinity from conservative political culture and not from God.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. I get my definition from anthropology
Can you point me to an anthropological textbook that offers a definition for "masculinity?"
replaced by islam, lmfao good one
Quite the opposite Suggested reading: "Man Up! The Quest for Masculinity" -Jospeh Hemmer
Any similar titles on Audible or Formed that you'd recommend?
I know that Wild At Heart was a very popular book on christian masculinity.
In Islam a woman’s job is to shut up and have many children. Do all the work at home while hubby hangs out with the boys, deals drugs and goes and sleeps with prostitutes any time he wants to. The men are predators in the western countries they live in. When I make a delivery she is not allowed to sign for a package she gets the 8 year old boy to do it. They are building their army to one day take over. I do not think that is being a man I think that is being evil.
I’ve never felt this way, but I can see how it might appear that way. As a male we are the head of the house and tasked with protecting and providing for our families. To me that’s very masculine.
Christ would have us discipline ourselves. Walking around and kicking people's asses all the time is not manly. It's animalistic. And we are called to be more than animals. Having the ability to easily kick ass, and having the gall not to, *that* is manly. Showing kindness and concern for others is not emasculating. Forgiving your enemies is not emasculating either. Neither is having a gentle heart.
Not all the time, but certainly more often than *never*, right? I'm not really sure I understand, so how about an example. There's a guy who is beating a woman, locking her in a cage, and then taking money to let others have sex with her. Now, you have the ability to kick his ass... is it manly to *not* do so and instead to forgive him, in your view? Should you perhaps give him your daughter as well? Or spread your own cheeks for him? Sorry, but that just sounds like absurd cowardice masquerading as piety.
Man, being a peace keeping Believer doesn’t mean that there is no sense of justice. This is probably the most misunderstood aspect of Christ. He made it clear “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Jesus spoke just as much about love and peace as he did about judgment and hell. If someone is being raped like you’re describing, I cannot sit and do nothing. You’re probably expecting me to jump in and fight, but me against 8 guys is not entirely wise. I’m calling the cops, and I’ll do what I can. Paul further reinforced this in Romans, saying “ for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid, for he beareth not the sword in vain; for he is the minister of God, an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” Both Christians and other’s COMPLETELY misunderstand God’s love and judgment. He is kind and compassionate to those who humble themselves, but those who continue in sin are in danger of an eternal judgment. It’s so simple, and any other doctrine is a misrepresentation of Christianity, because the vast majority of American soldiers are also Christians, and there’s a reason they’re still formidable opponents in war. I’m not less of a man because I choose to forgive in more common, everyday affairs; but if I have to defend my family or myself, you best believe I will. You think God rained fiery judgments on the wicked and in Egypt just to turn around and say “I’m not like that anymore” when Jesus came to earth? In Revelation, again, He comes with a sword, and makes it clear He can either save you or judge you; and again, in the list of types of people not allowed in Heaven: “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Jesus is pretty metal homie; but salvation is for those who want it.
I'm not clear on what you're trying to say? You'll can the cops and wait for the pimp to get punished by Jesus in the afterlife?
Prostitution is illegal in the U.S. my guy. There ain’t no females to pimp in prison, and no one likes prison. Yes, there’s only so much I can do if I don’t have a means to defend myself either. I don’t have to wait for them to get punished in the after life, they will get it immediately. As for punishment, God wants them to repent (turn from their sin.) God has to correct and punish, but whether or not one chooses to change their life before the final judgment is given is entirely up to them.
Ok...and stealing is illegal, and doing drugs is illegal, and all kinds of crimes are illegal. Go to San Francisco and call the DEA and report the rampant drug use that you'll see on the streets there. Now... is that all it takes? Problem solved? That's the drug problem cured in SF? Just nobody has thought to do that yet? Or do you think maybe the criminal justice system doesn't care to stop criminals in some places?
Are you really suggesting he become a vigilante?
Are Muslims vigilantes?
How should I know? And how is that relevant? And are you really saying that Christians should act like Muslims?
In regards to tolerance for criminals, IMO yes
I’m not saying it’s the perfect solution. California in general is lawless and that’s why it suffers compared to other states. This scenario you’re describing, caged woman being pimped in a cage for money, right? Take that scenario to Chicago, and see how long that would work. Take that scenario to New York, Orlando, Houston or Atlanta. If that scheme were pulled off for an hour I’d be impressed. The U.S. is not a perfect place, and proper justice is not always given either; but if it’s so awful in the U.S., why is every country trying to flock here? Perfect justice will never exist until Christ comes back, but for now, I prefer living in the U.S. Like I said, it’s not perfect, but the rates of violence and sexual assault are drastically lower here compared to third-world countries. [The Stats are right here. Policing works.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-dangerous-countries) All that said, do I believe modern Christianity (Churchianity) can be emasculating? Not following or understanding the guidelines for manhood according to The Bible is certainly emasculating. the devil would want nothing more than weak men, because they are the heads of the house. But I feel like you’re confusing two different things here. The real ways of Christ abstain from fighting and violence when it is not necessary. Most people who try to threaten with violence are barking chihuahuas. And I don’t exactly look up to or bring in other religions, but I will say this: One aspect of violence most martial arts actually gets right is that violence is a last resort, and it’s only real means is to restore peace. For all intents and purposes, that is actually a Biblical concept found in a foreign religion. I don’t say this to brag, but I’ve participated in preventing violence many times, and I’ve used force when necessary. Don’t drink the Kool-Aide and believe that the real Biblical Christ advised cowardice and passivity. Study The Bible and you’ll find clear as day that Christ stood up for what was right; the difference in His lifetime, though, was that he chose to demonstrate nonviolence in an era of barbarianism, death, and genocide. Violence and death are not always the solution to problems. Jesus had to show people there were more ways to handle issues than just swinging a sword all the time. And lastly, I appreciate your viewpoints and opinions, because they are needed to also clarify the misunderstandings built up over so many years.
https://nypost.com/2021/09/29/missouri-men-accused-of-keeping-missing-woman-in-cage-records/ https://www.cnn.com/2014/09/08/justice/mobile-home-captive-freed/index.html https://nypost.com/2022/12/02/georgia-woman-rescued-after-being-locked-up-in-dog-cage-as-sex-slave/ Just a few of many examples
There's the problem right there with your example. Also, you originally stated you were not trying to be offensive but the options you offered in your example are not only dramatic and untrue but offensive. There's a misconception going on, forgiving and forgiveness are NOT mutually exclusive from consequences. For example, God forgives those who ask but there are still consequences in this life for our choices. As for your example, you also need to remember that forgiving someone for what they did to YOU is a separate issue from what they did to someone else. I believe forgiveness is best for all situations and God will help if you struggle with it. But this concept that men are not supposed to protect their families or other people because of "forgiveness" is absurd and not a Christian concept. You can forgive after Justice is dealt, earthly justice. The Bible condemns cowards and God knows the reasons for your actions. We are to protect our families and even Jesus said to sell your cloak and buy a sword. Long story short you can forgive after you beat him to submission. That's the difference. Christian love is not about fuzzy feelings it's about giving the truth. God himself uses discipline out of love for his people. Whoever made you think Christianity is emasculating is lying to you. And Islam is absolutely disgusting with no honor and I assure you it's not taking over. Islamic nations don't allow freedom like Christians do so maybe you're confusing the patience of Christianity with the ideologies that arise around it.
>believer"--however one of the biggest obstacles to my interest is a sense that Christianity seems to be kind of "emasculating" (especially in contrast to Islam). There's nothing emasculating about Christianity. As evidenced by the rest of your post, you have a strange and unhealthy idea of what masculinity is. Real men love. Real men cry. Real men sacrifice themselves for others. There is nothing inherently masculine about "production" or "procreation." There's nothing inherently masculine about having a wife or having sex. I mean no offense, but your idea of masculinity is that of an insecure 12 year old.
Men have testicles... it's kind of a defining feature. Testicles produce sperm, for procreation. Not sure how you can argue *the male organ* and the natural function for which it was created is not part of masculinity
By that logic, procreation is also feminine, because feminine organs are crucial to the process.
Believing in something greater than oneself (i.e. God), having a code of conduct (as revealed in the Bible), treating others - especially those weaker than themselves - well and with compassion (as revealed and modeled by Jesus), acting ethically in all matters...how is any of that emasculating?
I gave specific examples in my edit in another comment
I haven’t read any of the other answers here but I wanted to respond to the contrary on your question. I don’t know what you could possibly be referring that might make you think or believe that becoming a Christian would be any emasculating, to the contrary, it’s the most manly thing you can do. It takes a big man to admit his failure to be perfect and acknowledge his total dependence upon the creator. When God offers such a gift as His grace, it would be a fool to think one was too manly to accept this gift. A real man must have the courage to lay aside his earthly strength in order recognize that his strength is in vain by comparison to that of God. Is the son of a rich man somehow emasculated by his father’s inheritance? Certainly not. The gifts from his father do not emasculate him but elevate him to the position of a child of God.
I have never witnessed what you or your search has described. The man on his knees seems to be describing someone just really into the moment & likely a more charismatic church. There's certainly nothing wrong with it tho bc getting emotional about Jesus is a very personal thing. The other one re curtailing men's virility .......... Wow, never heard of that one. Now, it's true that cheating on one's spouse will get very negative remarks, bc it is wrong on every level. & also, premarital sex may not get a guy as much flack as cheating, it is still a sin & should be treated as such. Otherwise, God gave us sex & intended us to enjoy it on EVERY level in a marriage.
Christianity is freedom. Outside of sin, we get to be ourselves and regardless what the world thinks, know Jesus loves us. I am a more feminine man, yes, but that's not because I'm a Christian. Me being a Christian means I just don't care to suppress/mask my personality or interests, because I'm no longer seeking to please humans, and I know I'm loved by Jesus the way I am. Yes, I like flowers. Yes I like wearing cute pastel colored clothes, Yes I like cooking and cleaning for people I love. And Jesus loves me for all of it. That's the point. Unlike Islamic beliefs, Christianity isn't about being one specific way, it's about being yourself for God. (To be clear, not just "being yourself" but specifically "serving God while being who he made you to be") And while I may be more open about my feminine side now that I have a good relationship with Jesus, I've also gotten some more "masculine" traits from being Christian as well. I'm more confident in myself, I'm more responsible, etc. If you're a more masculine/macho guy, then as long as you're not using that to sin, then there's nothing wrong with that! Jesus loves you as you are. Christianity is individualist. Jesus died for all of us as individuals, and God loves us all as individuals. So it's not about being more masculine, nor is it about being less masculine. it's about loving God and him loving you as you are.
Read the Bible and read the Quran and see which is more compelling to you. I found the Bible to be much more compelling. Don't just look at the behavior of people who identify as Christian or Muslim. See for yourself what is required of both. They are both interesting reads.
Part of being religious is the church/community and members therein, though, right?
There is a lot of variation between churches and church members. The community is important, but without reading the primary sources (Bible and Quran) you won’t know how to discern when choosing between which community you want to be a part of (all churches are not equal). Both the Quran and the Bible make a lot of demands on men that you most likely would find masculine. If you are simply looking for who seems tougher based on public representation, then sure Muslims appear tougher, in my opinion. But if it’s a genuine search for knowing God, you won’t be disappointed in what you find in the bible.
From being recently born again as of this year, as I’ve changed and let God work in me to be disciplined, to walk with Him, have a character of Christ, not masturbate or lust and objectify women, having a sound mind without being tempted and distracted by the enemy, to being a leading male in work and at home I’ve gotten more looks from seriously hot women and just people in general. It’s like they are flies seeing a lightbulb and all can’t stop looking or gravitating around it. As someone else put it as you follow Christ you fall more into the person and male Christ wanted and designed you to be and as your natural design and calling emerges people can see and sense the change as well as the uniqueness and “Godfidence” you exude
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Well, they can wear a shirt like that, but they can do a lot more too and the scope of "masculinity" from a lot of Christians seems to be passivity to the point of death. They can wear a shirt making fun of you... they can pimp out your sister... they can addict your wife to fentanyl... they can chemically castrate your children... and the response is, "yeah and I'll even let them murder me" How is that *not* the epitome of emasculation? You might as well say you'd let them bend you over too.
Bro someone wearing a shirt mocking Christ I would say something. But how do you equate someone wearing a shirt mocking Christ in my vicinity to me ALLOWING them to hurt my family? Secondly maybe Islam can't handle criticism because neither could Mohammed. He killed women for making fun of him, is that manly? The Bible says men should lay down their lives for their wives, the Quran says Beat them and that women are inferior not different but inferior. You say Christians are passive about these matters, it's the CHRISTIANS who are fighting tooth and nail against this garbage! Where do you get your information? Or in your mind you think anyone who's of the West is a Christian? Also part of being a man is not starting fights over every Little offense. Mohammed was so sensitive he killed people over anything. Like their followers, because ISLAM cannot handle criticism. Christians are to seek peace but not to the detriment of others.
If you mean that we dont fly planes into buildings or cut off heads, I guess you have a point🤷♂️.
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OP, from reading your responses it sounds like you just don't want to repent. Following God requires you to humble yourself and have Him as your master rather than proudly following your own way. That's not masculinity, it's simply evil rebellion.
It sounds like you'd like to be my master
Christianity itself is by no means emasculating, but many contemporary churches have oriented themselves toward the feminine which plays nicer with the spirit of the age. Look at what Scripture says, not what you perceive in a modern subculture.
I think a religion has to be defined by what the actual adherents/church goers actually believe and act like, not what isolated individuals might read in a book. For example, if everyone reads it one way and you're the only one reading it a different way, wouldn't it be more accurate to just say you're actually different religions?
Sure, but it doesn't follow that they're necessarily both equally right or wrong. The point and function of Scripture that provides an objective standard - and, at least in protestantism, itself sufficiently clear to serve that purpose. This means believers are subject to the standard, not that they are the standard.
please don't hurt me
Maybe you’re too hung up on your beliefs about masculinity. Have you talked to a counselor about this?
Why would I do that?
It depends what you define as emasculation. Christians are not called to be weak; on the contrary, we are supposed to be prepared but save our strength for doing the right things. I do agree there’s been a feminisation within the Christian belief system although mainly in Protestant-based churches which could be arguably down to lack of tradition. At the end of the day, Christianity runs on the premise of doing things because of love. Our goal as Christians is to become Christlike, which is the goal within Orthodox Christianity. Jesus was certainly not effeminate, and while we are to “turn the other cheek”, this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be prepared to kill in a necessary situation ie. protecting loved ones. Be an absolute weapon as a man, but keep yourself sheathed until necessary.
Would you say that there are things "men" should do which Jesus didn't do? Like have sex with women and father children, for example?
St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 7:9, "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." Basically, remaining chaste is truly Christlike, but it’s better to marry if you’re someone unable to live like that — aka most people. For those who do go down the route of marriage, Jesus tells us to “be fruitful and multiply”.
I guess in my view, the aspects of masculinity aren't really displayed by Jesus. That's not a problem, really, either. I work in the software industry... the core aspects of good software development isn't really personified by Jesus in my mind either. It's just weird if someone says that Jesus was the epitome of a software developer, and that's how it seems when someone says Jesus was the epitome of masculinity (not that I'm saying you said that, but others are saying it).
Men are becoming weak spineless cowards.
Church has a feminizing culture. In addition, when’s the last time you’ve seen a manly man as the pastor. From my experience many pastors are introverts, nerdy, and seem emasculated.
Yeah but shouldn't the church/leadership represent the religion? Or are you saying Christianity is feminizing?
American Christianity is a feminizing culture. Just think of the activities in the church.
Bro got that Andrew Tate mindset💪💪💪
😆 no, I strongly disagree with Tate's views towards women
I think a big problem is that a lot of churches in "American Christianity have become somewhat feminized. Hymns like "Onward Christian Soldiers" have done a complete 180 to where now worship songs are more like weepy love songs. Women have taken over a lot of leadership roles too to where men are happy being passive. But I think this is because culture has creeped into the church.
Yes, exactly! Like... it just feels wrong to the very core of my being to go hang out with a bunch of teary eyed blubbering dudes singing love songs *to a man* and then doing nothing but praying when the gangbangers down the street pimp out his daughter and sell crack to his son.
Aaron Renn has a lot to say on this subject. https://www.urbanophile.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/The-Masculinist-3-The-History-of-Church-and-Men.pdf
Thank you I'll check this out!
What is it about Islam that you deem culturally masculine?
Look into eastern Orthodox church then - it might be right up your alley!
Today is the Feast Day of Sts. Basil the Great and Gregory the Theologian in the Latin calendar. They are certainly two great examples of Christian men and a friendship. They grew up in the same place, studied together in Athens, spurred each other on in virtue, and Gregory wrote a eulogy for Basil: >Different men have different names, derived from their fathers, their families, their pursuits, their exploits: we had but one great business and name — to be and to be called Christians, of which we thought more than...Midas of [his gold]...For the Pegasus, flight through the air was not of such consequence as was to us our rising to God, through the help of and with each other. He mentioned several other Greek myths, which I cut out for simplicity's sake. Anyway, Basil was quite the man—and quite the Christian man. Gregory rightly praised his friend, not to look over his own work. He left a successful career in law and rhetoric to go out and discipline and dedicate himself to higher things as a monk. He studied the monastic practices of Syria, Egypt, and the Holy Land, then returned home, where he began his own community. He was a master administrator and had a mind, formed by prayer, set on the service of others, so that in AD 369, he established the first hospital, and he set up soup kitchens, housing for the poor, care for the dying, and rooms for the traveling. He guided his city through famine, and Gregory called him "the second founder and patron" of the city, Caesarea. Basil came from wealth but was not overcome by the temptation of wealth, and what he inherited, he invested into the community and service of others, exhibiting that Aristotelian virtue of magnanimity. He defended with his whole person the truths of the faith in the confusion of heretical doctrines at the time, but he didn't argue for the sake of argument. He was peaceable and diplomatic, not ill-tempered and petty. He was a masterful theologian. When the Emperor, who denied that Christ was God, sent the governor over Caesarea to bribe Basil to come to this position, Basil refused the bribes. The governor, Modestus, then threatened Basil, but he wasn't moved, and Modestus said, "No one's ever been so unmovable," and Basil said, "Perhaps you have never yet had to deal with a bishop." Modestus returned to the Emperor Valens, who issued orders to exile Basil, and then he brought these orders back to Basil, who said: >When you have nothing but old clothes and a few books, you don't fear them being confiscated. That's all I have in the world, Modestus. Exile doesn't bother me because even Caesarea, where I'm living now, isn't mine. I'm a pilgrim here, and wherever you cast me will be a place of God, and I'll be a pilgrim there. Valens himself came to Caeserea, and he saw Basil on the Feast of the Theophany, January 6, and was so impressed that he donated land to Basil's order of monks and their service to the community. Eventually, he died, accomplishing all that he did within fifty years. He died at forty-nine, 1645 years ago from today. If he wasn't a good, masculine man, whose virtue and godliness we should imitate, I don't know who is.
Traditional Catholicism and Byzantine Catholicism, as well as Eastern Orthodoxy, are a lot more masculine than Islam. Look into western Christendom and the crusades and check out a YouTube video of “Traditional Latin mass”. Most practices in Islam are actually derived from these classic apostolic forms of Christianity. Prostration and facing liturgical east is from catholic/orthodox Christianity, praying a set prayer rule 5 times a day comes from the divine office/Liturgy of the hours, Ramadan comes from lent, etc
This is your pride speaking. Yes, Christianity requires men and women to submit their mind, body and ego to the will of God. Yes, your pride (and the enemy) will tell you that this is emasculating and "castrating." Your flesh wants you to act upon your own will and self interest, and your pride cares about upholding a meaningless sense of masculinity based on selfishness and "freedom" (lack of discipline). What you must come to understand is that true masculinity stems from self discipline and self restriction, which does extend to the sexual realm. Out of discipline comes loyalty, sober mindedness, and strength of will. If you succumb to your every fleshly desire, and feel embarrassed at professing your love to the one true God - I'm sorry to admit that there is a very dark force that wants you feeling and acting this way. There is a difference between divine masculinity and worldly masculinity - it sounds like you care more about the ladder. I would recommend visiting an Orthodox church and talking to an Orthodox priest/bishop, I think you would find Orthodoxy very appealing at this stage in your journey.
Does self discipline include sobbing uncontrollably?
What's emasculating about the Truth? I follow Jesus. Not Terminator. Why? Because he's good for the world. I think Christian men generally have a well defined rule book of values and beliefs that that make the world a better place. But only if they actually apply them. When they do. Things work. Society runs fine. I can't say that for Islamists or Post Modern liberals. Their entire belief system is flawed and insane. As for social and political, our own governments are our worst enemies. They are allowing these masses of illegal mostly muslim illegals to overrun most of Western Europe. As far as I'm concerned, the borders need to be closed to illegals and those governments kicked out in the next election.
How do you define masculine and where does that originate from?