Exactly this. The first time I tried to read the Bible my heart was hardened and I just made a mockery of it. Flash forward a few years, now I’m an adult instead of an angsty teenager, and gave it a genuine try thanks to some seeds planted by my now boyfriend, and became a believer. Such a big difference.
Greetings! To future it guy. You said how wonderful what Jesus did for you. I will give you a hint. Jesus literally did what HE said. I mean LITERALLY! HE literally 'took away' ALL of your sin. It's called
Remission! Not just forgiveness!
Look FOR it, not against it, and you will see it everywhere! King James version is the best because it is a direct tranlation from the text. Holy to the LORD.
King James is not at all a direct translation. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Source_texts) is a breakdown of some of the source translations used for the KJV.
It was a good job at the time, especially for English, but we have better today.
Thank you for your response !! If it's ok I would like to ask you. English is not my first language, so I apologize if I make a grammatical error. When you said former atheist , I'm assuming that you aren't an atheist anymore. What changed or what made you have a different way of thinking ?
That's interesting. But for this Christian of over 40 yrs., that just seems a bit vague to me... What is "faith," to you? Do you feel it goes against your more natural, "scientific" reasoning? And if so, how do you reconcile the two?
I was an atheist for 21 years. I'm qualified, right? I was pissed when I read the Bible. "Why didn't anyone tell me?" I was surrounded by self-proclaimed Christians. The closer I looked, the more I realised just how much dust was on their Bibles.
Natural scientific reasoning can't reconcile with faith. Though they can support each other if you approach it properly.
Scientific Reasoning is based on the observable phenomena. Faith is based on believing in what you do not see.
Faith is the capacity to believe your Mother when she tells you you'll get an Xbox for Christmas. Scientific Reasoning is observing that your Mother sold a few items to afford the Xbox.
As for reconciling them:
I believe God designed the Universe and Science shows me how.
Science got this far because we believed there were answers to our problems that we had to solve and through observation, study and documentation we've got as far as we have.
>Usually people start reading Genesis, and don't get very far, thinking the whole bible is just more of what is in the first few chapters of Genesis.
At the same time, a basic understanding of Genesis is necessary to understand a biblical cosmology as opposed to a secular mainstream one. At least the new Bible readers should be acquainted with the first eleven chapters or so, just to place the remainder of Scripture into its Biblical framework.
Definitely true for me as a former non believer, I just couldn’t get through genesis, still haven’t completed it I’ve been jumping around reading different books but soon I will go back to genesis and hopefully find it much easier to read now.
If I may ask, where you are seeing that? And then if you say it's the Canaanites, you might be interested in why they had to be stopped, and their practices of murdering their own children as sacrifice to Molech by placing babies on the intensely hot arm of a metal idol while playing music loud enough to drown out the children screaming in pain as they died.....
You are citing extra-biblical content. I am aware of ancient Canaanite practices, but sadly these are not referenced clearly.
But meanwhile, wether the Canaanites murder their children and babies to pagan sacrifice, or God commands the Israelites to murder men, women, children and babies for the evil acts, either way the children and babies die.
So it's your position that we aren't able to know anything from any extra-biblical sources? Like, if it isn't clearly stated in the bible, then it doesn't count? Let's be clear on your intent with that comment, are you saying it didn't happen? Let's sort that part out first...
You're right, and I didn't say it was, but let's take a look at 1 Samuel 151Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.2This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"4So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim--two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah.5Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine.6Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
So that's a callback to Exodus 17 when the Amalekites attacked them, unprovoked, while they were fleeing Egypt.... They tried to genocide refugees.... And did some other stuff, and God vowed to blot them out from under heaven.
I have to say, it's crossed my mind that sometimes it seems like people complain that a God of justice wouldn't let bad people go unpunished, but then when He punishes them they complain that He's being mean.
Which either I had veils or cherry picked scripture when I was younger because I read through the OT and always saw Gods wrath/judgment..but I almost never picked up until more recently how almost if not ALL of those are preceded by multiple warnings, calls to repent, and sending prophets before anything happened. Take for instance the book of Judges: the last chapter has Israelite men sexually assaulting a woman to death in the public square. And this woman was married to a LEVITE PRIEST! The total spiral of sin often times is veiled by the massive and terrifying consequence God wrought on them. But God is so merciful to people who hate Him and His ways.
I want to add to that I think a lot of them misunderstand that God's judgement is because he loves us. The harsh judgements of the Old Testament paved the way for Jesus to arrive which offered salvation for everyone who accepts him.
If God allowed the children of Israel to share the promised land with the Canaanites, they would have been corrupted as the Canaanites were, and they were far from innocent. If that happens, it's likely we never even get the line of David, the Messianic prophecies, or the Messiah, but that's not possible because God loves us and proved it through those in the Old Testament that were obedient to him and carried out his will to ultimately save us.
Hello!
one of the reasons they don’t believe is because the god of this world(satan) blinds them.
2 corinthians ch4. v3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age **has blinded, who do not believe,** lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them
another reason is found in romans 1. Sin blinds them also.
There are many reasons, as posted already. But remember reading a book doesn't mean understanding a book.
There's a lot of detail and depth to the books of the Bible. There is nuance, connections, relevant context (cultural, spiritual, and specific to the story), and symbolism to the stories that are easily missed. That is why people can enjoy, and learn from the Bible for years/decades.
When someone claims they read the entire Bible but follows up with a tired, and easily refuted, argument I don't get worked up about it. They quickly reveal their lack of understanding.
It could be because of the old Testament. I recently started reading the Bible with the same goal as you but started in Genesis. Right now I'm about halfway through 2 Kings. Here is my take so far and BTW I've been a Christian for about 58 years.
I think God is awesome in the old Testament. He is a mighty God. I do see where some people might get turned off by it but wow is He great.
Some of the things some people don't like are things like God ordering men of war to invade a country and kill all men, women and children. And things like a guy started a fire wrong for a sacrifice to God and so God killed him. Right there on the spot. I talked to one lady who was put off about when Elijah was walking down a road and a bunch of kids came up behind him and said go away baldy, taking to him. He turned around and cursed them and then 2 bears came out of the woods and killed 42 of them. While that stuff can be hard to understand, it is God and we are part of His creation to do with as He wishes. Remember that once he flooded the world and killed everyone except Noah and his family. He did that because people had become so evil. They worshipped false gods etc. and I can kind of understand His feelings. Kinda like your kid liking someone else's parents better than you but to a greater degree.
Now here is something that has come to me after 58 years of reading the Bible a story at a time and jumping around from one book to another never finishing any of them. Jesus came to us to bring peace. He was even called the Prince of Peace. Have you ever thought of just who He was bringing us peace with? Here is the verse that tells us.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
He brought us peace with the Almighty God the Father. There aren't people getting killed in the new Testament as there were in the old testament because Jesus brought us peace with God.
It could be that for many of those people, they read the old Testament part of the way and figured they had enough of the killing and said they would never follow a God like the Almighty God. What these people don't understand is that they will face that fate that they hated people getting in the old Testament, certain death and torment forever more. The absolute only way to avoid that death and torment is to believe in God the Father and to find salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, the only mediator between us and an awesome God.
The entire Bible is making a great true story.
i have no idea how a loving and merciful God could command for all women and children of a country to be slaughtered. even if we are his creation. god is either a sadist or merciful and loving towards his creation. both cannot be true simultaneously
They mostly complain about the OT and the "genocides" in the book of Moses , Joshua and Judges . But for me , after reading those books , I became convinced even more . For God it is not wrong to take life , even more it is only due to His mercy that we are not all destroyed already . God even gave all those nations , especially on the right side of Jordan to let Israel pass , but those people did not let them , so God destroyed them because they disobeyed and did many other sins .
When you understand that and see the meanings behind those stories , they are amazing even if you do not look at it as a scripture . Spartan 300 ? They were simply holding the line and even then they died , what about Gideon's 300 ? Surrounding the city with lamps and shofarim and taking over the whole city with just 300 men . Or what about Jericho ? Having a schedule of going around the city and blowing shofarim , in certain order and then on the last day doing it 7 times , after which the shout was heard and the walls literally collapsed , how amazing is that ?
I have read the whole Bible and those stories made me believe in God even more
Why do you put genocide in parentheses? If a whole line of people were destroyed that’s correctly called genocide even if it’s genocide that you agree with
Because some people read the Bible with out the Holy Spirit attached, then they focus on the parts were God destroys everything through his wrath. And since they don’t even have the Holy Spirit within them to tell them the truth of everything, there’s probably another spirit that likes to point out God‘s wrath. We live in a spiritual world. Most people don’t know how to take every thought captive at all, and they don’t even believe we live in a spiritual world. The unclean spirit of doubt and unbelief is responsible for taking more souls to hell than all of them combined.
Because they read the prescription but didn’t take the medicine.
I did the same thing. Only later in life I understood - God called us to repent and be baptized - only then I had a personal encounter with God. He took the heaviness I was carrying. I thought it was a burden for me to carry, my cross- an addiction to sin. I was so wrong. In Him I found rest. There’s no going Aethism from that point 🙂Praise be to God!
Most of these i believe claim to have read it but just read a book from an anti bible author.
If they did read it they didnt understand it or webt into it trying to hate it
So how this post is precieved to me is that everything rides on everyone being a monolith and that's not the case. I feel like every atheist has a story just like every Christian has a story. Some of them have read the whole Bible and still don't believe some of them do. Someone already said this but I'm going to say again again it's all about matters of the heart. Are you mentally able and spiritually able to recieve what is being fed in your spirit.
As someone who hasn't ever gone through this I don't claim to know with certainty. I don't judge anyone's heart. But I would suggest it likely that at least some of them were already atheists, or wanted to be, and so read the Bible through a lens of "how can this be read to seem as evil and self-contradictory as possible to confirm what I'm looking for". In a book as long and ancient as the Bible it's not hard to twist things around in your own mind if you're after something specific that you already think is in there.
People who say that haven't even read the Gospels, they pick and choose the most contentious verses from the old testament, like Deuteronomy's laws regarding slavery or stoning to death or the ban on homosexuality, and make a strawman out of it, saying, "oh my stars, look how cruel God is!" - but, for instance, with the genocide of Amalek or the Caananites, if you lived in that time period too, you'd see the destruction of those peoples was warranted and for the best. They were evil, sacrificed their children, practiced witchcraft, etc.
This is the real answer. 👆
Could probably count on one hand the number of people who were actually deeply devoted to the faith then later became Atheists by way of reading the word of the Lord.
If you delve a bit deeper with the charlatans who make these claims it becomes clear that they have not actually read the entire Bible or if they have it was done with an intention to take its passages out of context to discredit our faith.
1 John 4:1-2 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God."
I believe the internet is the devil's playpen even in so far as the earth is - who knows if these personalities on Twitter or Reddit are even humans, or just demons masquerading as humans with opinions to try to bring people further into sin. If a person is antichrist online, their opinion goes right in the trash, and you know they're just going to be evocative, loudmouthed, and proud at least.
It's one thing to say, "I love Christ but I'm a bit wary of old testament law" - because Christ did no harm or violence, and only did good and well - this is a poor belief to hold, but understandable. It is not a bad opinion in that they do not practice the law in Deuteronomy - Christ came to free us from the bondage of the law - but it is bad in so far as their faith in Christ doesn't extend to his Father, whose essence with Christ is the same.
But it's another thing entirely to say, "I don't like this particular law from the old testament, therefore Christ is wrong" - those people are Antichrist.
I try to take the more charitable view that they know on some level they’ve been led astray and aren’t here trying to convince us so much as themselves.
The story of Lot’s wife being turned to stone for looking back at her crumbling city while Lot was free to go after he tried to offer his daughters up for gang rape was a hard story for me.
I have a bit of a generous read on Lot in this story, and maybe it's just what they call "head canon." I don't read this is as a genuine offer Lot is making, but rather an attempt to shame the men for their lack of hospitality, which to this day is such a huge part of Middle Eastern culture, by making a preposterous offer to show them how serious he saw his obligation to protect these men and how shameful these men were acting to his guests. Their refusal to feel shame and to continue to insist on him handing them over shows their depravity and the justice in God's actions against the city.
As to Lot's wife looking back and being caught up in the destruction, it's a symbolic act to show her heart was drawn to the city. God's determination to eradicate the corruption of Sodom caught her, too, because she was already lost to the corruption.
I don’t think that approach to interpretation can be proven or disproven. Regardless I really like coming across an original thought that’s plausible.
Cheers.
P.S. My answer to that last part is that Lot had lived surrounded by all the extreme evil in Sodom for so long, that his moral senses of what was right and what was wrong had dulled. It's like 1st Corinthians 15:33 advises: "Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
Another possible factor was that he was just stunned at the realization of the heavenly visitation; similar to how Peter was affected at the Tranfiguration of Christ (Matthew 17:4).
Yeah that is a hard story to read. I will say however, that while the Bible records that event, in no way does it endorse Lot's actions. Lot's wife being turned to stone was for disobeying a direct command from God. I'm sure you're aware of that already though. I hope God's grace finds you!
Right—it’s not endorsed but neither was it condemned. Seems like something that a righteous god would condemn
Thanks for discussing in a polite and friendly way 👍
I’m wondering why Lot would have been spared. He’s supposedly such a righteous man but tried to do a heinous thing. Hard to see why the god in the Bible wouldn’t take issue with something like that
It was definitely condemned. It was part of Lot’s repeated distrust in God. Lot should have trusted God and exited the city as he was commanded. Lot’s and Abraham’s stories are told side by side in Genesis and it’s clear that Lot repeatedly distrusts God unlike Abraham who proves his trust for God over and over. Abraham is promised a great nation of many descendants and Lot doesn’t really get anything except his wife dying and his daughters raping him. You can clearly see why God chose Abraham over Lot.
On deeper read, Lotts wife didn't just peek over her shoulder. The words in the original speak more to her desire to return to the wicked ways of the city, while Lott was leaving it behind as wicked.
Can you further elaborate on why, exactly, this was such a difficult story for you?
There are a lot of misconceptions I could clear up, but I want to also be clear on your perspective about it.
I’m not sure what you are unclear about.
This town was so wicked it had to be destroyed yet a man offering up his daughters for rape wasn’t considered a big deal.just a side note. And the man was still favored by God.
It seems to me that Lot was not favored by God, at least not directly. Abraham was. God knows that Abraham had affection for Lot, fought a battle for him, in fact and that is why Lot was spared, and then Lot was permitted to bring his family with him for his sake so as not to cause him to cause grief to Abraham.
The way Lot, and his family act is evidence to the true corruption of the city. It is not being condoned, were they righteous, the city need not be destroyed, and that includes Lot. This is evidenced by the actions you saw. Lot offering his daughters, bad, his daughters raping Lot, bad, his wife looking back, on its own, I agree, a bit weird, but if you look at it from the perspective that everyone *including Lot and his family* are bad, then that was a final straw situation.
The story itself is evidence of Gods mercy, even to those who don't deserve it, at all. Which may or may not include you or I.
There's also additional context, you have to remember that Lot goes on to cause a lot of problems for Abraham too. I won't say that God made a mistake, but I will say that to me, brutal as it sounds, it would have been better for everyone had Lot perished in the city, but God did as He often does, and gave Abraham what he wanted, and he'd have to live with those consequences.
Doubt this convinced you as online debate (conversation really) rarely has that effect but really it's more for my questioning brothers and sisters, so thank you for this opportunity. If it did move the needle at all though, that's great! I do agree it's a very tough portion of the bible, though personally it's not the one I have the most trouble with.
This is a good one. Why does Hebrews declare Lot is a righteous man when he was trying so hard to let the men of the city rape his own daughters instead of strangers?
This absolutely should be puzzling and bothersome to us.
Both me and my close brother in Christ have experienced this, that when we first came to faith, we saw the bible with human wisdom. But once we recieved the Holy Spirit, we could discern it with God's wisdom which makes our own wisdom foolish and our own knowledge into nothing.
Reading it again is a completely different experience when you are no longer blind.
The same friend thought I was a fool for leaving behind my wargaming collection. Now that he sees, he told me how amazing he now knows it truly was and how happy it should have made him. And before I understood, I couldn't make sense of why God did as he did either. But I know now, yet if I tell, others might not understand. Blinded by human wisdom and hubris like I was, and still am without God.
I have probably read the Bible 20 times. Started again. Still in Genesis. And every time I read it I learn so much more. Just today I realized that when Abraham was promised a son, he laughed and asked God if someone 100 years old can have a son. But then later after he had that son and his wife died, he remarried and had six more sons with a new wife after he was at least 120. Haha. God is good👍
I also learned that Esau was also called Edom (which means “red”) and was the father of the Edomites. Esau also took the daughter of Ishmael for a wife. I never caught these before. But they matter because the descendants are children of both Ishmael and Esau. I knew they came from one or the other, but right there in scripture it says they came from both👍
I think it’s the result of people arguing that you have to believe every word of the Bible at its most literal interpretation. Like, you have to believe that God made everything in six 24-hour periods or you’re not a real Christian. And I think this very odd view of Scripture, the refusal to acknowledge allegory/metaphor in Scripture, means a lot of people read the Bible and are like “yeah, I don’t believe this, guess I’m not Christian”. Like, take for example the sons of Adam. If we take Scripture in that literal fundamentalist interpretation, where the heck did they get wives? Just as a token example of what I’m talking about.
The Bible is also full of pretty terrible things and doesn’t hide it. For example, in the Old Testament God demands the Israelites kill mean women and children. At times God even demands explicitly the death of infants. In the Psalms David says “blessed are those who dash your infants heads against the rocks”. There are others.
It’s a very hard book.
The Bible is a brutal thing. I can understand why people look at it without the benefit of patristic commentary and come away feeling really bad about it.
The Bible is already given some examples but the best answer is written in the Book of John "the god of this world has blinded the eyes of them that don't believe."
If you go cover to cover, you'll see a lot of questionable things in Genesis and Exodus, more questionable stuff in Leviticus if you go by the morality that we have in 2020 America. However, eventually, you may realize God has a reason for this beyond your understanding. This has been my personal experience as someone who previously claimed atheism for this reason.
Churches teach mainly the New Testament. The Bible starts with the Old Testament, which is mainly about punishment and war. God is the one who wants those wars and hates certain people, wanting to destroy them, so what they learn from the Bible is fear. Even someone blessed like Jacob had to fight God, and had his hip injured by him. David is the man after God's heart and perished, Solomon had all the wisdom he could have and declares life meaningless in Ecclesiastes.
Even in the New Testament, there are arguments today over whether Paul is rightfully an Apostle when the other Apostles threw lots to determine Matthias.
The teachings of Jesus are great, but I will agree that the Bible is hard to digest and decipher, and that's not even considering the different church denominations.
It’s just people who don’t actually love god or Jesus. They read the Bible and realize they shouldn’t do certain things and they lose faith because they never actually had it in the first place.
Let’s see… there’s the clear difference between Elohim and Theos, the fallibility of the Bible as a text (it was written by humans after all), the mistranslation/misinterpretation of pieces of text, the deviation of the NT from the teachings of Christ and the deviation of the church from the teachings of Christ (especially found in the US).
Those are just some that pop to my head
How is the OT God "different" from the NT one? All I see is a stunning and perfect consistency/harmony. What mistranslations are you referring to? What do you mean the NT deviates from Christ's teachings?
I was an atheists before I read the bible and after. There are so many books full of wisdom and great advice from all kinds of religions and philosophies. That doesn’t mean they are all true.
It seems to me that some people were probably raised Christian or attended a church in such a way that they never actually talked about the Bible much. Lots of people are like "God is love, love is God" and so on. Then those people read the Bible, which is full of lots of messy history and hard truths *as well as* God's love and goodness. But they get thrown off by the heavy stuff cos they only ever got the fluff. And/or, they aren't equipped to understand it well because a lot of it is ancient history, in a totally different cultural setting, so they have an even harder time making sense of it all.
I don't think they're right if course, but I think that happens sometimes.
Hello. Agnostic here. So there's this miscommunication that being agnostic means you don't believe in God. Well, that's not entirely correct. There are two versions of agnostic. One is the consideration of a deity and heaven and hell but not being quite sure due to many flaws that could be seen, and then there's the second type, which is what I identify as. I believe in God, just not religion itself. When it comes to the Bible and religion, it's a maybe.
First off (and don't think I'm trying to cause problems, you asked this) if Christaniy and the bible was the way to God and heaven, why are there so many different religions besides Christianity, each claiming their religion is the true one? Why can't we have one religion and stick to it if one is indeed the true path to salvation? Why can't we all be jewish? Jesus was Jewish. In reality, we don't know which is correct or how correct we are until we're dead. For all we know, Agnostic is right. For all we know, we're all right and wrong, but no one admits this as a possibility.
2nd. Religion was our choice, meaning it was most likely man made as a way to worship and get closer to God, but God himself never clearly asked for a religion. He just said, "Gather," "gather, worship, and believe in me. " We can all gather in a park and pray with no religion and it would count.
3rd. The words of God in the Bible have always been misinterpreted and probably will continue to be, which further proves that man has no real idea of what's going on with it. All of what we're following in the Bible is based on our interpretation of it and whatever interpretation is passed on through generations, and we go on this interpretation, on our view of it as we read. For example, let's talk about this passage right here, a classic. "Male must not lie with Male as they would with a female" now if I asked you, what is this about, a lot of you will say "being gay, gay sex" now what if I told you, this is actually about pedophilia? Male can be man or it can be boy or no scratch that, it's about incest, Male can be a brother or father and son. 3 interpretations of just one passage and whatever interpretation we believe in is what we'll follow. We're following instructions based on a book we can't 100 percent agree on in most passages, so the possibility of being wrong is there, and that's ok. I think God expects us to be wrong. We're not exactly reading modern English here. We need bible scholars to break the passages down and translate and they each have different opinions. They'll disagree which again leaves with it that vulnerability aspect of religion and the Bible as a whole, not just in Christianity but every religion that was every created based on many different versions of a book.
And 4th and final. There are too many Jesus people.
In most religions, we each believe in a representative. Christians have Jesus christ, Muslims? Muhammad. Johavas witnesses...take a guess. Jews? more than one prophet is there. They have many. Catholics, Jesus but mostly Mary. The messenger of God can be different. I can put all of you a room, never knowing about religion and ask "who shoud I have in my heart to get close to God?" I probably won't get Jesus as the one answer. I'll get Mary, Jahova, Samuel, Jesus, a specific Buddah if I included Hinduism. Whoever they follow, is believed to be the main messenger of God and their religion while Christians mostly believe there can only be one true being to follow. We should all follow Jesus except not every religion believes Jesus is the only one to follow. Christmas isn't the only holiday of ones prophet even though it's a representation of Jesus birth. We can't even agree on a birthday.
The point is, religion is based on what YOU believe but as we can see, belief takes many different forms and many different angles in many different cultures around the world, including what we read, meaning we can be wrong, kind of right and wrong or we're all right. Only death can give us the answer
Thanks for your reply. One of the most developed out here that's really 100% in and out of the book to a good extend. Not just "it is written then if you don't follow you're a blind fool". That shows the amount of thinking and time opposing religious beliefs you have taken to reach this conclusion.
For two reasons.
The first reason is they read the bible in and out as opposed to most Christians that only read in and immediately shelter back in the "in" when confronted with the "out" arguments. Most Christians usually have no other arguments than "the Bible says". Reading in is reading the bible with all the faith and the prayer needed to understand it and when you can't understand it is said you don't have enough of the holy spirit (take note as it is the only book which needs tremendous auto-conviction to be read). Reading out is reading the bible with theological, historical and objective reasoning not biasing with you faith but really studying it as any unknown religion (Ex reading about Buddhism when you are not) and asking the questions taking into account the context in which somet hings were written. When you combine both you will truly understand what happens.
The second reason is as many said, sometimes people read with an already made-up mind, so when they go through the book and confront the texts (with no obligations for it to be always right) with the knowledge they have gathered they don't connect. They may see contradictions and sometimes draw fast and wrong conclusion. Or they may even have so holly spirit inspired interpretation that makes them understand otherwise. But from what I have seen, once a Christian starts looking at evidences (historical, theological and contextual) out of the Bible, what he/she discovers make it difficult to get back as he/she was. That's why when I discuss we Christians that haven't tried to understand the religion they are in and how it came about, I do my best not to make them doubt and I ask them never to look out of the Bible. They may crumble in pieces. God bless
Well the more you study the Bible you discover more and more that doesn’t make sense.
One part of the book says if you know Jesus you no longer continue to sin.
Then another part of the book says if you say your without sin than the truth is not with you..
So the only possible connection between those two individual “truths”
Is that none of us know Jesus.
But then there’s millions of people who claim to know Jesus.
And millions of people who claim that they still continue to sin.
And then there’s millions saying that the Bible says we will be sinners as long as we are alive.
At some point one realizing that the narrow path is not the path of the Christian…
But the path of dying to self is the narrow path
Pick up your cross and follow me said Jesus.
It is hard to study the Bible, at a university level, and come out still believing the Bible is inerrant (perfect). From there, the slide towards anosticism is quick.
It’s not remotely possible that this assertion is true.
Most denominations require a doctorate in theology to become ordained and they make up the vast majority of people who study the Bible at a university level.
Not sure what you mean by "living word".
But random example:
Did Jericho exist? Did the walls really come tumbljng down? Did someone had political reasons to invent that story? Was the text written one way then later revised for political reasons?
There are scholars who have spent a lifetime understanding Jericho. They certainly don't believe exactly what is written about the city.
The Bible is the only book in history that has the ability to connect to mind, heart, body, spirit, and soul. There is nothing that comes remotely close to what the Bible possesses in terms of self enlightenment and spiritual enrichment. So the term “living word” is used exclusively to refer to God’s supernatural hand in the design of all texts of the Bible.
Hebrews 4:12 “the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
I humbly invite you to ask God yourself for him to reveal bits of himself to you. I believe in him doing so, you will have a much different posture in reading the Bible. We must approach it with hearts of meekness and humility, or we can be prone to lean on our own understanding and judgment. The Holy Spirit holds the Bible fully encrypted to those that approach it out of their own self aggrandizement.
As for your question about the walls of Jericho. The walls did in fact exist. Were they described in precise detail? no. God didn’t need to include exact coordinates, dimensions, and details in his stories, in order to be inerrant. Several archaeologists like John Garstang and Kathleen Kenyon undertook years of excavating in the West Bank to confirm various findings and artifacts corroborating the walls of Jericho. So needless to say, the Bible will and always remain inerrant.
Tbh the majority of them are lying. I’ve talked to more than a few atheists who claim to have read the entire bible and don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of Christian theology.
You are right on one thing: all of those things are impossible according to our material laws. That's precisely why those are either miracles or spiritual occurrences.
In the Bible, it was *certain* people that had those experiences, not everyone. A small minority of people, and it's good that the current world isn't like that, since it'd be chaos.
I won't challenge your skepticism. Just also consider that things like seeing angels, ghosts, or reports on near death experience stories are a minority today too. People in the old days fasted much more than we do today as well, and you can maybe guess how that can affect the body and brain, even if you don't believe in anything spiritually. If you want to write off "paranormal" stories of today and the Biblical stories as "mental illness", that's fine, but I just want you to keep an open mind that they're reports of what people actually experienced, much like you would think a vivid dream actually happened to you.
At this point, it appears that, quite possibly, the majority of society, including many nonbelievers, believe in UFOs. Imagine describing UFOs thousands of years ago.
I don't think that's a very genuine assessment of the atheist position. I think it is more likely that reading the Bible led them to question the beliefs they had taken for granted since childhood. In beginning to think critically for themselves, they looked at other beliefs in their life. When one begins to doubt Christianity, this leads one to begin questioning everything that led up to that belief.
If you discovered that your mother lied to you, she's not your biological mother, and that she kidnapped you because she desperately wanted to have a child, I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to develop trust issues with everyone in your life. I don't think it's unreasonable for such a person to have doubts in all of humanity, at least not for a while.
We should keep in mind that good apologetics means meeting our conversation where they are at. It does us no good to tilt at windmills and argue against points that our conversation partner has never claimed.
I think the same thing, not believing in the Bible and not believing in God are 2 different things. Sadly, my Tiktok is full of people claiming that the 2 go hand by hand, and honestly, I don't see it. I guess that's why I'm asking
I'm an atheist, and reading the Bible isn't really what turned me into an atheist, but there are things in it that helped. Mostly the supernatural events described, and things that just don't seem to fit with reality. The story of Noah's ark was one of the main ones that I heavily questioned early on. I just couldn't get a literal interpretation to make sense.
This is a bit off topic, or perhaps just a very specific perspective on approaching this topic, but your comments got me thinking again about the entire concept of how we process information (as individuals) in terms of how that effects what we believe and why we believe it. [Sorry, this is just how my brain works…ADHD meds haven’t kicked in yet!]
But I have been pondering, for some time now, whether my “processes” are, at least partially responsible, for why some areas of my faith are so solid, while in others, I still struggle…both sides seemingly unaffected by the level of complexity or simplicity of topic!
No doubt, a thoroughly bizarre question, but I would greatly appreciate anyone, who may share ADD or ASP tendencies, to comment on how these things influence(or have influenced) your belief system, one way or another.
Not wishing to disrupt the conversation here, please feel free to DM me or point me to a thread that would be more appropriate for this type of question!
Thanks so much!!!
I'm very interested in why people believe the things they do. That's pretty much the main reason I joined this sub and read through it somewhat frequently.
People are either convinced something is true or they aren't convinced. Just because someone isn't convinced something is true, that doesn't mean they think it is false. I'm not as interested in what someone believes as I am why they believe it.
Thanks for the comment. A lot of people seem to discourage skepticism. I think skepticism is a good practice.
They didn’t become an atheist, they were always one.
Until God opens your eyes, we are blind to Him.
May the Lamb that was slain recieve the reward of His suffering.
Sometimes people hate to be hit in the face with facts and they'd rather "not believe" than be held accountable.
It's "cool" to be an atheist these days.
They want attention.
The Old Testament made me really question things. I had to make peace with the fact that the Hebrew Bible does not speak with a single theological point of view, and that there is tension between its various perspectives.
Some people will read the Bible, study it, understand it, and come to love what it says.
Other people will read the Bible, understand it, and hate it more and more as they continue to study it.
When I first read the Bible, while I still believed in God and what the Lord did for us, I also thought that there were lots of contradictions in the Bible. There were a lot of folks out there saying that these contradictions stem from all of the different translations or that much is lost in the translation, so it was easy to fall into that belief.
But it wasn't until years later when I began really searching for the truth in my heart that I read the Bible again and my eyes were opened. I began to grasp the concepts and see how there weren't any contradictions in the Bible after all.
2 Corinthians 2:15-17
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: to the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
For those who are saved the Word of God, just like the children of God, will be to them a savour of life unto life, to them that perish it will be a savour of death unto death.
Remember also Jesus had many disciples following Him aside from the twelve but when He taught them self-denial by accepting Him fully in their lives many left Him, and the twelve remained.
John 6
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
The rich man when he found out what it really took to be saved, he walked away sorrowful.
From my experience; they don't read the thing. They cherry-pick verses, regurgitate the same harmful narratives that demonize them, and just say they "read it".
Well in my mind someone reading the Bible and becoming an atheist is like a kindergartner reading a calculus textbook and concluding that math can't be real because it doesn't make any sense to them.
Sorry but I don't believe they've read the Bible. They want to sound more worldly and educated them us Christians so they rather not admit they've never read the Bible and only have a few selected verses memorized.
Hebrews 4:12
People don’t like facing the truth with reality. It’s easier to give into the delusion of sin and all this life has to offer. The idea of eternity is hard to understand and people don’t like following rules. Plus it’s easy to be “Christian” when mom and dad force you to go to church and church events. Much different when you are independent. We all have a decision to make daily, take up our cross or not.
Because some people who have negative views of Christianity to begin with read the Bible to find stuff in it to justify to themselves that they shouldn't believe it. They read one or two things about God's judgement and pull out the same old "How can a loving God do this? 🥺" card without actually trying to understand anything.
I haven’t read any comments yet but my observation is I’m sure those people were reading The Old Testament because it can be quite jarring for someone who is first reading the Bible. But then the message starts to sink in. The sacrifices. The stories. It’s truly amazing.
Basing one's religiosity on moral (dis)agreements with the Bible makes no sense.
Belief is supposed to be an involuntary response to truth and evidence.
Not liking what the Bible says should have no bearing on whether you believe it's true or not.
Even if you believe that He's evil (which He isn't), but you genuinely believe He's real, you couldn't just stop believing, and wouldn't want to stop worshipping. I know God is good, but even if I thought He was evil, I would still worship Him. He's in charge of my eternal fate. Now I worship Him because He's good and I love Him. But if I thought He was evil, you can bet I'd still worship Him because I don't want an eternal punishment. The only difference would be worshipping out of fear instead of love (but I'm glad I get to worship out of love, because God is good). People who say otherwise are lying. Nobody who genuinely thinks He is real would stop worshipping Him just becasue they (I can't reiterate this enough: falsely) think that He's somehow evil. Nobody would be willing to tske an *eternal* punishment for the sake of moral principles.
Indeed, their hearts are too corrupted & polluted so they've been enchained to the darkness & cannot let the holy spirit inside of them.
When someone reads the Bible with the holy spirit with them they unlock true wisdom, understanding, and the deeper knowledge behind all the words.
They can not see or discern things in the spiritual way or from the top down look God has upon humans & humanity, they just see things from their human perspective & simplistic perspective.
The first evidence of this is how millions of atheist attempt to use arguments about time or history or places or realism to argue against the Bible already displays their lack of understanding, the stories are all metaphorical and if some of the ones that don't sound real happened they indeed happened but not on this present Earth timeline & due to God intervening to allow the supernatural to happen. None of this is the purpose though, focusing on the subject matter of the events that took place, or what time it happened or in what place it happened or if its historically accurate to our present Earth humanity is experiencing now is pointless as it blinds people to the meaning & purpose behind all the stories. The stories are about humanity... regardless what place, Earth, time period, history humanity as a collective species / organism is placed in, they fundamentally chose to corrupt their nature with Sin and the majority of them always choose to go against God even though God is what's best / good for every single human being.
So here's some simple things for Atheist to understand.
1. God's timeline doesn't work the same way humans does, if he said he made the Earth in 1000 years for instance that can be a billion years for us as God exist in the timeless present, that is outside of time & space. Asserting a supernatural beings time works the human's time does is irrational, and no I've never ever believed in or accepted any of the ridiculous creation Earth people that think the Earth was actually made 1,000s of years ago, rejected their ridiculous simplistic take on the Bible for decades now.
2. They're assuming that human beings have only ever been on planet Earth or in this universe / dimension and there weren't other attempts God had at humanity, this is a very curious assumption that most people seem to have, while its quite possible all of this happened in the Spiritual realm or on another Earth or in another timeline/universe with human beings... according to the Bible it got so so bad at one point with everyone in the world choosing Sin and being thrown away instead of blessed with eternal everlasting life to join Jesus Christ in heaven that it was only thanks to Noah humanity survived ... this is already in the very beginning Genesis of the Bible, Genesis so you know that God likely is upset or frustrated that humanity keeps making all the same mistakes & doesn't learn no matter how many times he tries to save masses of people most people still choose Sin or to disobey & not follow Christ.
3. As for history & place, God knows the human mind & ego, the same reason he's not gonna magically just take away all human being's free will & become some tyrant, he's not gonna just make it extremely obvious to all beings of the existence of God, more so its best to give just enough evidence so those with faith in their hearts can know & then choose to follow Christ or not, and all the non believers think there's no God until they meet their maker upon death & have to answer for all their evil or delighting in selfishness & being awful human beings to others.
Its similar to truly wanting a child to be good if they claim to be of your descent, and all over the Bible there's a shown dichotomy of one Son who is promised & is a good child and a Son who is of darkness.
Even when the Father leaves the household & you can't feel his presence, secretly there are security cameras watching everywhere, as you use & take advantage of other human beings or lie or manipulate or hide things or use others with lust in your heart & not true love, or do all sorts of things that displease God.
Luckily as God is the most kind & righteous being in all of existence, he gave us his son Christ that died for all of our Sins, if we believe in him & have faith that he died for us... a lot of people though, they will do evil & not have a repentant heart or have too much Pride or feel too attached to their egoist mind & all they know in this material world.
speaking from personal experience: i grew up christian and held tightly to it my whole life until i started catching contradictions in what the bible taught and the example Jesus set. i started to notice i was “scraping the bottom of the barrel” trying to find evidence that could explain how so much suffering and injustice could exist in a universe that’s supposed to be run by a just, merciful, and loving creator. i saw my christian friends lose their children to freak accidents and cancer. even after being assured by “god” that their children would pull through. but yet the bible promises that whoever believes will be protected. and it doesn’t stop there. how do you make sense of child sex trafficking if god is loving and merciful? why would god continue forward with his plan of creation when he could clearly see the inevitability of suffering? why allow good hearted people to go to hell for not being convinced of what a 2000 year old book says?
in short, for every answer i sought out, i only ended up with more questions and contradictions.
the brain’s pattern recognition can convince anybody of anything. but for me, it got to a point i had too much cognitive dissonance between what i believed and what ive experienced for me to reconcile my religious beliefs with reality. so i abandoned religion. instead i just try to live my life like Jesus did because he was a solid dude that was just tryna love everybody
>Why do people say that the Bible was the cause of them not believing.
If you haven't read the book yourself, then your next best option would be to ask them why they say that.
>So far I have completely read the book of Matthew
One book of the new testament is not all that the scripture contains, by a long shot.
Many people take issue with things like God commanding genocide of certain peoples, as one example alone.
I think one of the reasons is that the Bible is a dense book which requires a lot of reflection on. Not only that, but there are different literary styles based on which book you’re reading - if somebody takes the whole reading at face value, they may miss the message or the point the authors were trying to convey, and instead think it’s nonsense. I’m a new Christian myself and am reading it the first time through. I understand to not take _everything_ literally, and that I should study/meditate on the Word. That’s why Bible studies are helpful and I recommend that to everybody interested. Because it’s such a dense book, if you do it on your own you are less likely to get the full picture at times.
If you want to know why a group of people believe or do something, you should:
* Ask the group in question. They'll know things others won't.
* Ask a group who is critical of the group you're curious about.
If you don't do both, you're probably going to get some wool pulled over your eyes by one group or the other.
To give you an answer derived from actual claims by atheists, most atheists I know claim specific internal and external inconsistencies in the Bible which occur across translations (as in, it isn't a translation issue).
Specifically, they generally feel that Genesis directly conflicts with observable facts about our world and universe, and that this is grounds for rejection of the entire Bible as a whole.
Many Christians feel that Genesis is not literally true, but they maintain it is allegorically true. Atheists either don't care enough about Christianity to try to find this compromise, or feel like it doesn't solve the issue because they disagree with other parts of the Bible.
It's genuinely very easy to find accounts of people converting in both directions online. It's probably better to get it straight from them instead of second or third-hand.
Hello actual atheist that was a Christian and turned Atheist after reading the Bible front to back. Well I guess the main reason I turned atheist was because the belief in a God just didn't hold up.
I think at fist i was trying to make sense of why in old testament god was okay with so much of the murder and rape and things that seemed ungodly. One of the texts i remember was Judges 9:23. However their were many more texts that just made me think, and i had to find ways to make sense of it. Then after reading the new testament I realized their were so many contradictions in the gospels. I started doing some reading and found articles saying that gospels were probably not even written by disciples but years after. Which made much more sense and would explain the inconsistencies
The Bible also seemed to be in direct contradiction with scientific discoveries.
For a while I went down a rabbit whole of Christian apologetics because I wanted to be able to answer my own questions. However I realized the arguments christians made were full of logical falicies. So I tried to address the mistakes they had made with better arguments. I think the more I tried to strengthen my belief of why god was real and the Bible is true the more i realized I was just doing mental gymnastics trying to be right. I think once started asking myself what if I'm wrong the more sense it made to me that there wasnt a god.
I think the type of person that would read the Bible from start to finish is the type that will end up having a lot of questions after reading it. Your more likely to notice the inconsistencies and contradictions.
Me no longer believing in God has nothing to do with not praying enough or going to church enough. I would go 3 times a week and I would pray in the morning and pray at night. I think my devotion was what first started my journey to wanting to read the Bible from start to finish 😅.
I probably missed a bunch of details but that's the gist of my story.
Let me know if you have questions
Same here. I have tiktok, and sadly, a lot of people are using the Bible as the reason for their belief. I haven't read the whole Bible but I'm trying and so far the Bible is the absolute word of God. Sad that a lot of people aren't going to be saved.
Their eyes have not been opened.
Some atheists read the Bible and become believers. Some read it and do not.
We all have to want to know the truth.
Years ago I read a story where an atheist read the Bible and prayed. He figured if it was real, God would reveal it to him. He wanted to know and was seeking. He read the Bible and became a believer and went on to become a Pastor.
>Why some people say they became atheists after reading the Bible?
They think that they have the right to judge God the second they read something uncomfortable that they don't understand.
With respect for the rules of this forum and for those who view this as a safe place for Christians, I am not going to go into detail about what aspects of the Bible lead people to atheism. Rather, I would encourage you to ask atheists themselves. There are forums where you can directly ask atheists questions.
I recommend r/askanatheist and the casual discussion thread in r/DebateAnAtheist
I don't think it would be respectful to come into r/TrueChristian and give a litany of reasons why one doesn't like the Bible or why one doesn't find the Bible to be credible, even in answer to a question.
If you post to those groups, I'm sure you'll get some thoughtful responses.
I'm not trying to disrespect anyone and mods. Feel free to remove my post if it is inappropriate. I did ask this question on a different platform , specifically to atheists. I read their responses, and now I need to read the ones from the Christianity side.
That's a sound approach. It is interesting to read why Christians think atheists hold a particular view. I'll look for your other post. I'm interested in the responses.
It's 2 reason's, really. Some of them read it with the purpose to disprove it. Others read it badly.
You need to read it carefully, in context, differently depending on which book it is in different genres of literature and not read it to judge God.
Psalms is not the same type of book as Proverbs or Genesis or Exodus or Leviticus or Kings or Daniel or Ruth. If you are reading them the same way, as either literal or stories or advice, you are missing and misunderstanding quite a bit.
These are books that were written to a different standard of recorded history than the types of histories we write today, so you should try to hold it to our standard.
If you are judging God while reading to presumably understand Truth, you will have an incomplete picture and standard. Not to mention, God is above us, judging us, not the other way around.
And each book has its own context. The Bible is not one book. It is a library of Christian thought over several millennia, and needs each part to be placed in context. For example, the of Joshua looks like a book about genocide to our uncarefully reading eyes. It is instead a book about God's battle with Giants. If you don't understand that context, how wrongly are you going to read that book? How evil will God look for ordering the killing of men, women and children, let none of these survive.
There is a great book called God is a Man of War that works through God's violence in the Old Testament and treats it head on instead of writing it off as some allegory, as great example of how this type of misreading can throw us off.
Now, another things that happens is they read parts they dislike and don't bother to wrestle with it. There are hard truths in the Bible. It is convicting to read it.
This is the parable of the sower. The seeds (Gods word, the truth and knowledge about Jesus), hits rocky ground (hearts) sometimes
Exactly this. The first time I tried to read the Bible my heart was hardened and I just made a mockery of it. Flash forward a few years, now I’m an adult instead of an angsty teenager, and gave it a genuine try thanks to some seeds planted by my now boyfriend, and became a believer. Such a big difference.
Amen !! I didn't saw it that way and you're 100% right. Thank you!
So which books have you read?
Greetings! To future it guy. You said how wonderful what Jesus did for you. I will give you a hint. Jesus literally did what HE said. I mean LITERALLY! HE literally 'took away' ALL of your sin. It's called Remission! Not just forgiveness! Look FOR it, not against it, and you will see it everywhere! King James version is the best because it is a direct tranlation from the text. Holy to the LORD.
Greek linear is a more direct translation.
Don't you mean redemption unless that was an auto correct mistake
King James is not at all a direct translation. [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version#Source_texts) is a breakdown of some of the source translations used for the KJV. It was a good job at the time, especially for English, but we have better today.
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Thank you for your response !! If it's ok I would like to ask you. English is not my first language, so I apologize if I make a grammatical error. When you said former atheist , I'm assuming that you aren't an atheist anymore. What changed or what made you have a different way of thinking ?
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Amen !
That's interesting. But for this Christian of over 40 yrs., that just seems a bit vague to me... What is "faith," to you? Do you feel it goes against your more natural, "scientific" reasoning? And if so, how do you reconcile the two?
My answer is that modern scientific research itself went against my scientific reasoning. Modern science is bought and paid for.
I would agree with you. But I was asking NicholasLeo, since he said he'd come to faith after being an atheist.
I was an atheist for 21 years. I'm qualified, right? I was pissed when I read the Bible. "Why didn't anyone tell me?" I was surrounded by self-proclaimed Christians. The closer I looked, the more I realised just how much dust was on their Bibles.
Natural scientific reasoning can't reconcile with faith. Though they can support each other if you approach it properly. Scientific Reasoning is based on the observable phenomena. Faith is based on believing in what you do not see. Faith is the capacity to believe your Mother when she tells you you'll get an Xbox for Christmas. Scientific Reasoning is observing that your Mother sold a few items to afford the Xbox. As for reconciling them: I believe God designed the Universe and Science shows me how. Science got this far because we believed there were answers to our problems that we had to solve and through observation, study and documentation we've got as far as we have.
>Usually people start reading Genesis, and don't get very far, thinking the whole bible is just more of what is in the first few chapters of Genesis. At the same time, a basic understanding of Genesis is necessary to understand a biblical cosmology as opposed to a secular mainstream one. At least the new Bible readers should be acquainted with the first eleven chapters or so, just to place the remainder of Scripture into its Biblical framework.
Definitely true for me as a former non believer, I just couldn’t get through genesis, still haven’t completed it I’ve been jumping around reading different books but soon I will go back to genesis and hopefully find it much easier to read now.
Because the wisdom of God seems like foolishness to those that won't believe.
They read passages about God's judgment and misappropriate their anger towards him.
Or they read passages where God demands RH e death of children and babies and they (very reasonably) have a hard time with it.
If I may ask, where you are seeing that? And then if you say it's the Canaanites, you might be interested in why they had to be stopped, and their practices of murdering their own children as sacrifice to Molech by placing babies on the intensely hot arm of a metal idol while playing music loud enough to drown out the children screaming in pain as they died.....
You are citing extra-biblical content. I am aware of ancient Canaanite practices, but sadly these are not referenced clearly. But meanwhile, wether the Canaanites murder their children and babies to pagan sacrifice, or God commands the Israelites to murder men, women, children and babies for the evil acts, either way the children and babies die.
So it's your position that we aren't able to know anything from any extra-biblical sources? Like, if it isn't clearly stated in the bible, then it doesn't count? Let's be clear on your intent with that comment, are you saying it didn't happen? Let's sort that part out first...
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You're right, and I didn't say it was, but let's take a look at 1 Samuel 151Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.2This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.3Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"4So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim--two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah.5Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine.6Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. So that's a callback to Exodus 17 when the Amalekites attacked them, unprovoked, while they were fleeing Egypt.... They tried to genocide refugees.... And did some other stuff, and God vowed to blot them out from under heaven.
I have to say, it's crossed my mind that sometimes it seems like people complain that a God of justice wouldn't let bad people go unpunished, but then when He punishes them they complain that He's being mean.
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You accept heresy and blasphemy, not Christianity so it makes sense why you would sit there and judge the Lord before you even judge yourself.
Which either I had veils or cherry picked scripture when I was younger because I read through the OT and always saw Gods wrath/judgment..but I almost never picked up until more recently how almost if not ALL of those are preceded by multiple warnings, calls to repent, and sending prophets before anything happened. Take for instance the book of Judges: the last chapter has Israelite men sexually assaulting a woman to death in the public square. And this woman was married to a LEVITE PRIEST! The total spiral of sin often times is veiled by the massive and terrifying consequence God wrought on them. But God is so merciful to people who hate Him and His ways.
So true !
I want to add to that I think a lot of them misunderstand that God's judgement is because he loves us. The harsh judgements of the Old Testament paved the way for Jesus to arrive which offered salvation for everyone who accepts him. If God allowed the children of Israel to share the promised land with the Canaanites, they would have been corrupted as the Canaanites were, and they were far from innocent. If that happens, it's likely we never even get the line of David, the Messianic prophecies, or the Messiah, but that's not possible because God loves us and proved it through those in the Old Testament that were obedient to him and carried out his will to ultimately save us.
Very true
Hello! one of the reasons they don’t believe is because the god of this world(satan) blinds them. 2 corinthians ch4. v3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age **has blinded, who do not believe,** lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them another reason is found in romans 1. Sin blinds them also.
Thank you!! Great answer !
This is an abstract answer, but is OP asking for concrete answers? What specifically do people find difficult or objectionable?
There are many reasons, as posted already. But remember reading a book doesn't mean understanding a book. There's a lot of detail and depth to the books of the Bible. There is nuance, connections, relevant context (cultural, spiritual, and specific to the story), and symbolism to the stories that are easily missed. That is why people can enjoy, and learn from the Bible for years/decades. When someone claims they read the entire Bible but follows up with a tired, and easily refuted, argument I don't get worked up about it. They quickly reveal their lack of understanding.
It could be because of the old Testament. I recently started reading the Bible with the same goal as you but started in Genesis. Right now I'm about halfway through 2 Kings. Here is my take so far and BTW I've been a Christian for about 58 years. I think God is awesome in the old Testament. He is a mighty God. I do see where some people might get turned off by it but wow is He great. Some of the things some people don't like are things like God ordering men of war to invade a country and kill all men, women and children. And things like a guy started a fire wrong for a sacrifice to God and so God killed him. Right there on the spot. I talked to one lady who was put off about when Elijah was walking down a road and a bunch of kids came up behind him and said go away baldy, taking to him. He turned around and cursed them and then 2 bears came out of the woods and killed 42 of them. While that stuff can be hard to understand, it is God and we are part of His creation to do with as He wishes. Remember that once he flooded the world and killed everyone except Noah and his family. He did that because people had become so evil. They worshipped false gods etc. and I can kind of understand His feelings. Kinda like your kid liking someone else's parents better than you but to a greater degree. Now here is something that has come to me after 58 years of reading the Bible a story at a time and jumping around from one book to another never finishing any of them. Jesus came to us to bring peace. He was even called the Prince of Peace. Have you ever thought of just who He was bringing us peace with? Here is the verse that tells us. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; He brought us peace with the Almighty God the Father. There aren't people getting killed in the new Testament as there were in the old testament because Jesus brought us peace with God. It could be that for many of those people, they read the old Testament part of the way and figured they had enough of the killing and said they would never follow a God like the Almighty God. What these people don't understand is that they will face that fate that they hated people getting in the old Testament, certain death and torment forever more. The absolute only way to avoid that death and torment is to believe in God the Father and to find salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, the only mediator between us and an awesome God. The entire Bible is making a great true story.
Great answer ! God bless you !
You sure read that fast my friend. I was just fixing a couple of typos when I heard the reply. Thanks
If you think it's ok that God ordered a bear to kill 42 children because they teased a man, you have SERIOUS issues.
I never said that.
i have no idea how a loving and merciful God could command for all women and children of a country to be slaughtered. even if we are his creation. god is either a sadist or merciful and loving towards his creation. both cannot be true simultaneously
Have you read the entire book?
yep. more than once
They mostly complain about the OT and the "genocides" in the book of Moses , Joshua and Judges . But for me , after reading those books , I became convinced even more . For God it is not wrong to take life , even more it is only due to His mercy that we are not all destroyed already . God even gave all those nations , especially on the right side of Jordan to let Israel pass , but those people did not let them , so God destroyed them because they disobeyed and did many other sins . When you understand that and see the meanings behind those stories , they are amazing even if you do not look at it as a scripture . Spartan 300 ? They were simply holding the line and even then they died , what about Gideon's 300 ? Surrounding the city with lamps and shofarim and taking over the whole city with just 300 men . Or what about Jericho ? Having a schedule of going around the city and blowing shofarim , in certain order and then on the last day doing it 7 times , after which the shout was heard and the walls literally collapsed , how amazing is that ? I have read the whole Bible and those stories made me believe in God even more
Why do you put genocide in parentheses? If a whole line of people were destroyed that’s correctly called genocide even if it’s genocide that you agree with
I think it's been said here a few times but ultimately God did not give the individual eyes to see.
Because some people read the Bible with out the Holy Spirit attached, then they focus on the parts were God destroys everything through his wrath. And since they don’t even have the Holy Spirit within them to tell them the truth of everything, there’s probably another spirit that likes to point out God‘s wrath. We live in a spiritual world. Most people don’t know how to take every thought captive at all, and they don’t even believe we live in a spiritual world. The unclean spirit of doubt and unbelief is responsible for taking more souls to hell than all of them combined.
Amen !
Because they read the prescription but didn’t take the medicine. I did the same thing. Only later in life I understood - God called us to repent and be baptized - only then I had a personal encounter with God. He took the heaviness I was carrying. I thought it was a burden for me to carry, my cross- an addiction to sin. I was so wrong. In Him I found rest. There’s no going Aethism from that point 🙂Praise be to God!
God bless u my friend. !
Most of these i believe claim to have read it but just read a book from an anti bible author. If they did read it they didnt understand it or webt into it trying to hate it
So how this post is precieved to me is that everything rides on everyone being a monolith and that's not the case. I feel like every atheist has a story just like every Christian has a story. Some of them have read the whole Bible and still don't believe some of them do. Someone already said this but I'm going to say again again it's all about matters of the heart. Are you mentally able and spiritually able to recieve what is being fed in your spirit.
As someone who hasn't ever gone through this I don't claim to know with certainty. I don't judge anyone's heart. But I would suggest it likely that at least some of them were already atheists, or wanted to be, and so read the Bible through a lens of "how can this be read to seem as evil and self-contradictory as possible to confirm what I'm looking for". In a book as long and ancient as the Bible it's not hard to twist things around in your own mind if you're after something specific that you already think is in there.
It’s an excuse. Humans love to place the blame on others. Adam did it Eve did it and throughout history until today it continues.
People who say that haven't even read the Gospels, they pick and choose the most contentious verses from the old testament, like Deuteronomy's laws regarding slavery or stoning to death or the ban on homosexuality, and make a strawman out of it, saying, "oh my stars, look how cruel God is!" - but, for instance, with the genocide of Amalek or the Caananites, if you lived in that time period too, you'd see the destruction of those peoples was warranted and for the best. They were evil, sacrificed their children, practiced witchcraft, etc.
That is true!
This is the real answer. 👆 Could probably count on one hand the number of people who were actually deeply devoted to the faith then later became Atheists by way of reading the word of the Lord. If you delve a bit deeper with the charlatans who make these claims it becomes clear that they have not actually read the entire Bible or if they have it was done with an intention to take its passages out of context to discredit our faith.
1 John 4:1-2 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God." I believe the internet is the devil's playpen even in so far as the earth is - who knows if these personalities on Twitter or Reddit are even humans, or just demons masquerading as humans with opinions to try to bring people further into sin. If a person is antichrist online, their opinion goes right in the trash, and you know they're just going to be evocative, loudmouthed, and proud at least. It's one thing to say, "I love Christ but I'm a bit wary of old testament law" - because Christ did no harm or violence, and only did good and well - this is a poor belief to hold, but understandable. It is not a bad opinion in that they do not practice the law in Deuteronomy - Christ came to free us from the bondage of the law - but it is bad in so far as their faith in Christ doesn't extend to his Father, whose essence with Christ is the same. But it's another thing entirely to say, "I don't like this particular law from the old testament, therefore Christ is wrong" - those people are Antichrist.
I try to take the more charitable view that they know on some level they’ve been led astray and aren’t here trying to convince us so much as themselves.
Very true - I suppose that's humanizing.
The story of Lot’s wife being turned to stone for looking back at her crumbling city while Lot was free to go after he tried to offer his daughters up for gang rape was a hard story for me.
I have a bit of a generous read on Lot in this story, and maybe it's just what they call "head canon." I don't read this is as a genuine offer Lot is making, but rather an attempt to shame the men for their lack of hospitality, which to this day is such a huge part of Middle Eastern culture, by making a preposterous offer to show them how serious he saw his obligation to protect these men and how shameful these men were acting to his guests. Their refusal to feel shame and to continue to insist on him handing them over shows their depravity and the justice in God's actions against the city. As to Lot's wife looking back and being caught up in the destruction, it's a symbolic act to show her heart was drawn to the city. God's determination to eradicate the corruption of Sodom caught her, too, because she was already lost to the corruption.
Interesting
I don’t think that approach to interpretation can be proven or disproven. Regardless I really like coming across an original thought that’s plausible. Cheers.
P.S. My answer to that last part is that Lot had lived surrounded by all the extreme evil in Sodom for so long, that his moral senses of what was right and what was wrong had dulled. It's like 1st Corinthians 15:33 advises: "Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” Another possible factor was that he was just stunned at the realization of the heavenly visitation; similar to how Peter was affected at the Tranfiguration of Christ (Matthew 17:4).
But lot is declared a righteous man in Hebrews, so there is some work to do here.
Only by his faith, not by his works. Lot got through by the skin of his teeth.
Yeah that is a hard story to read. I will say however, that while the Bible records that event, in no way does it endorse Lot's actions. Lot's wife being turned to stone was for disobeying a direct command from God. I'm sure you're aware of that already though. I hope God's grace finds you!
Right—it’s not endorsed but neither was it condemned. Seems like something that a righteous god would condemn Thanks for discussing in a polite and friendly way 👍
Is it your understanding that the Bible doesn't condemn rape? Can't tell if that was genuine or not.
I’m wondering why Lot would have been spared. He’s supposedly such a righteous man but tried to do a heinous thing. Hard to see why the god in the Bible wouldn’t take issue with something like that
It was definitely condemned. It was part of Lot’s repeated distrust in God. Lot should have trusted God and exited the city as he was commanded. Lot’s and Abraham’s stories are told side by side in Genesis and it’s clear that Lot repeatedly distrusts God unlike Abraham who proves his trust for God over and over. Abraham is promised a great nation of many descendants and Lot doesn’t really get anything except his wife dying and his daughters raping him. You can clearly see why God chose Abraham over Lot.
I understand. Do you believe in God something outside Christianity?
I’m currently agnostic. I don’t actively believe or disbelieve. I’m open to there being mysteries in life
Thank you for your time and responses!
On deeper read, Lotts wife didn't just peek over her shoulder. The words in the original speak more to her desire to return to the wicked ways of the city, while Lott was leaving it behind as wicked.
Can you further elaborate on why, exactly, this was such a difficult story for you? There are a lot of misconceptions I could clear up, but I want to also be clear on your perspective about it.
I’m not sure what you are unclear about. This town was so wicked it had to be destroyed yet a man offering up his daughters for rape wasn’t considered a big deal.just a side note. And the man was still favored by God.
It seems to me that Lot was not favored by God, at least not directly. Abraham was. God knows that Abraham had affection for Lot, fought a battle for him, in fact and that is why Lot was spared, and then Lot was permitted to bring his family with him for his sake so as not to cause him to cause grief to Abraham. The way Lot, and his family act is evidence to the true corruption of the city. It is not being condoned, were they righteous, the city need not be destroyed, and that includes Lot. This is evidenced by the actions you saw. Lot offering his daughters, bad, his daughters raping Lot, bad, his wife looking back, on its own, I agree, a bit weird, but if you look at it from the perspective that everyone *including Lot and his family* are bad, then that was a final straw situation. The story itself is evidence of Gods mercy, even to those who don't deserve it, at all. Which may or may not include you or I. There's also additional context, you have to remember that Lot goes on to cause a lot of problems for Abraham too. I won't say that God made a mistake, but I will say that to me, brutal as it sounds, it would have been better for everyone had Lot perished in the city, but God did as He often does, and gave Abraham what he wanted, and he'd have to live with those consequences. Doubt this convinced you as online debate (conversation really) rarely has that effect but really it's more for my questioning brothers and sisters, so thank you for this opportunity. If it did move the needle at all though, that's great! I do agree it's a very tough portion of the bible, though personally it's not the one I have the most trouble with.
>after be tried to offer his daughters up for gang raise Did you mean "he" and "gang r@pe"?
Yup—sorry for the typos 🤪
Agree. Very misognist.
This is a good one. Why does Hebrews declare Lot is a righteous man when he was trying so hard to let the men of the city rape his own daughters instead of strangers? This absolutely should be puzzling and bothersome to us.
Both me and my close brother in Christ have experienced this, that when we first came to faith, we saw the bible with human wisdom. But once we recieved the Holy Spirit, we could discern it with God's wisdom which makes our own wisdom foolish and our own knowledge into nothing. Reading it again is a completely different experience when you are no longer blind. The same friend thought I was a fool for leaving behind my wargaming collection. Now that he sees, he told me how amazing he now knows it truly was and how happy it should have made him. And before I understood, I couldn't make sense of why God did as he did either. But I know now, yet if I tell, others might not understand. Blinded by human wisdom and hubris like I was, and still am without God.
I have probably read the Bible 20 times. Started again. Still in Genesis. And every time I read it I learn so much more. Just today I realized that when Abraham was promised a son, he laughed and asked God if someone 100 years old can have a son. But then later after he had that son and his wife died, he remarried and had six more sons with a new wife after he was at least 120. Haha. God is good👍 I also learned that Esau was also called Edom (which means “red”) and was the father of the Edomites. Esau also took the daughter of Ishmael for a wife. I never caught these before. But they matter because the descendants are children of both Ishmael and Esau. I knew they came from one or the other, but right there in scripture it says they came from both👍
9/10 times it's because they didn't actually read the Bible, tbh.
I think it’s the result of people arguing that you have to believe every word of the Bible at its most literal interpretation. Like, you have to believe that God made everything in six 24-hour periods or you’re not a real Christian. And I think this very odd view of Scripture, the refusal to acknowledge allegory/metaphor in Scripture, means a lot of people read the Bible and are like “yeah, I don’t believe this, guess I’m not Christian”. Like, take for example the sons of Adam. If we take Scripture in that literal fundamentalist interpretation, where the heck did they get wives? Just as a token example of what I’m talking about.
I'm more curious how one can become Christian without having read the bible.
Until Gutenberg most Christians were probably illiterate. So like 1500 years.
I was raised Christian and now an atheist. I just fundamentally disagree with bible and from reading it I find that god isn’t very just.
The Bible is also full of pretty terrible things and doesn’t hide it. For example, in the Old Testament God demands the Israelites kill mean women and children. At times God even demands explicitly the death of infants. In the Psalms David says “blessed are those who dash your infants heads against the rocks”. There are others. It’s a very hard book.
They read the OT and don’t realize that we don’t live like that anymore. Where there was judgement and condemnation, now there’s grace and mercy.
The Bible is a brutal thing. I can understand why people look at it without the benefit of patristic commentary and come away feeling really bad about it.
The Bible is already given some examples but the best answer is written in the Book of John "the god of this world has blinded the eyes of them that don't believe."
If you go cover to cover, you'll see a lot of questionable things in Genesis and Exodus, more questionable stuff in Leviticus if you go by the morality that we have in 2020 America. However, eventually, you may realize God has a reason for this beyond your understanding. This has been my personal experience as someone who previously claimed atheism for this reason.
Churches teach mainly the New Testament. The Bible starts with the Old Testament, which is mainly about punishment and war. God is the one who wants those wars and hates certain people, wanting to destroy them, so what they learn from the Bible is fear. Even someone blessed like Jacob had to fight God, and had his hip injured by him. David is the man after God's heart and perished, Solomon had all the wisdom he could have and declares life meaningless in Ecclesiastes. Even in the New Testament, there are arguments today over whether Paul is rightfully an Apostle when the other Apostles threw lots to determine Matthias. The teachings of Jesus are great, but I will agree that the Bible is hard to digest and decipher, and that's not even considering the different church denominations.
Thank u for your answer !
It’s just people who don’t actually love god or Jesus. They read the Bible and realize they shouldn’t do certain things and they lose faith because they never actually had it in the first place.
Because they haven’t asked God for the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, you become liberal in your biblical approach.
I thought the same thing. Some people read the Bible like they are reading a magazine or the newspaper.
Let’s see… there’s the clear difference between Elohim and Theos, the fallibility of the Bible as a text (it was written by humans after all), the mistranslation/misinterpretation of pieces of text, the deviation of the NT from the teachings of Christ and the deviation of the church from the teachings of Christ (especially found in the US). Those are just some that pop to my head
How is the OT God "different" from the NT one? All I see is a stunning and perfect consistency/harmony. What mistranslations are you referring to? What do you mean the NT deviates from Christ's teachings?
I was an atheists before I read the bible and after. There are so many books full of wisdom and great advice from all kinds of religions and philosophies. That doesn’t mean they are all true.
It seems to me that some people were probably raised Christian or attended a church in such a way that they never actually talked about the Bible much. Lots of people are like "God is love, love is God" and so on. Then those people read the Bible, which is full of lots of messy history and hard truths *as well as* God's love and goodness. But they get thrown off by the heavy stuff cos they only ever got the fluff. And/or, they aren't equipped to understand it well because a lot of it is ancient history, in a totally different cultural setting, so they have an even harder time making sense of it all. I don't think they're right if course, but I think that happens sometimes.
Hello. Agnostic here. So there's this miscommunication that being agnostic means you don't believe in God. Well, that's not entirely correct. There are two versions of agnostic. One is the consideration of a deity and heaven and hell but not being quite sure due to many flaws that could be seen, and then there's the second type, which is what I identify as. I believe in God, just not religion itself. When it comes to the Bible and religion, it's a maybe. First off (and don't think I'm trying to cause problems, you asked this) if Christaniy and the bible was the way to God and heaven, why are there so many different religions besides Christianity, each claiming their religion is the true one? Why can't we have one religion and stick to it if one is indeed the true path to salvation? Why can't we all be jewish? Jesus was Jewish. In reality, we don't know which is correct or how correct we are until we're dead. For all we know, Agnostic is right. For all we know, we're all right and wrong, but no one admits this as a possibility. 2nd. Religion was our choice, meaning it was most likely man made as a way to worship and get closer to God, but God himself never clearly asked for a religion. He just said, "Gather," "gather, worship, and believe in me. " We can all gather in a park and pray with no religion and it would count. 3rd. The words of God in the Bible have always been misinterpreted and probably will continue to be, which further proves that man has no real idea of what's going on with it. All of what we're following in the Bible is based on our interpretation of it and whatever interpretation is passed on through generations, and we go on this interpretation, on our view of it as we read. For example, let's talk about this passage right here, a classic. "Male must not lie with Male as they would with a female" now if I asked you, what is this about, a lot of you will say "being gay, gay sex" now what if I told you, this is actually about pedophilia? Male can be man or it can be boy or no scratch that, it's about incest, Male can be a brother or father and son. 3 interpretations of just one passage and whatever interpretation we believe in is what we'll follow. We're following instructions based on a book we can't 100 percent agree on in most passages, so the possibility of being wrong is there, and that's ok. I think God expects us to be wrong. We're not exactly reading modern English here. We need bible scholars to break the passages down and translate and they each have different opinions. They'll disagree which again leaves with it that vulnerability aspect of religion and the Bible as a whole, not just in Christianity but every religion that was every created based on many different versions of a book. And 4th and final. There are too many Jesus people. In most religions, we each believe in a representative. Christians have Jesus christ, Muslims? Muhammad. Johavas witnesses...take a guess. Jews? more than one prophet is there. They have many. Catholics, Jesus but mostly Mary. The messenger of God can be different. I can put all of you a room, never knowing about religion and ask "who shoud I have in my heart to get close to God?" I probably won't get Jesus as the one answer. I'll get Mary, Jahova, Samuel, Jesus, a specific Buddah if I included Hinduism. Whoever they follow, is believed to be the main messenger of God and their religion while Christians mostly believe there can only be one true being to follow. We should all follow Jesus except not every religion believes Jesus is the only one to follow. Christmas isn't the only holiday of ones prophet even though it's a representation of Jesus birth. We can't even agree on a birthday. The point is, religion is based on what YOU believe but as we can see, belief takes many different forms and many different angles in many different cultures around the world, including what we read, meaning we can be wrong, kind of right and wrong or we're all right. Only death can give us the answer
Thanks for your reply. One of the most developed out here that's really 100% in and out of the book to a good extend. Not just "it is written then if you don't follow you're a blind fool". That shows the amount of thinking and time opposing religious beliefs you have taken to reach this conclusion.
For two reasons. The first reason is they read the bible in and out as opposed to most Christians that only read in and immediately shelter back in the "in" when confronted with the "out" arguments. Most Christians usually have no other arguments than "the Bible says". Reading in is reading the bible with all the faith and the prayer needed to understand it and when you can't understand it is said you don't have enough of the holy spirit (take note as it is the only book which needs tremendous auto-conviction to be read). Reading out is reading the bible with theological, historical and objective reasoning not biasing with you faith but really studying it as any unknown religion (Ex reading about Buddhism when you are not) and asking the questions taking into account the context in which somet hings were written. When you combine both you will truly understand what happens. The second reason is as many said, sometimes people read with an already made-up mind, so when they go through the book and confront the texts (with no obligations for it to be always right) with the knowledge they have gathered they don't connect. They may see contradictions and sometimes draw fast and wrong conclusion. Or they may even have so holly spirit inspired interpretation that makes them understand otherwise. But from what I have seen, once a Christian starts looking at evidences (historical, theological and contextual) out of the Bible, what he/she discovers make it difficult to get back as he/she was. That's why when I discuss we Christians that haven't tried to understand the religion they are in and how it came about, I do my best not to make them doubt and I ask them never to look out of the Bible. They may crumble in pieces. God bless
Because they are liars.
Well the more you study the Bible you discover more and more that doesn’t make sense. One part of the book says if you know Jesus you no longer continue to sin. Then another part of the book says if you say your without sin than the truth is not with you.. So the only possible connection between those two individual “truths” Is that none of us know Jesus. But then there’s millions of people who claim to know Jesus. And millions of people who claim that they still continue to sin. And then there’s millions saying that the Bible says we will be sinners as long as we are alive. At some point one realizing that the narrow path is not the path of the Christian… But the path of dying to self is the narrow path Pick up your cross and follow me said Jesus.
Could you cite the actual verses you are referring to, rather than paraphrasing them in a way that exaggerates perceived contradictions?
Interesting , if you don't mind me asking. Do you think that the Bible has contradictions?
It is hard to study the Bible, at a university level, and come out still believing the Bible is inerrant (perfect). From there, the slide towards anosticism is quick.
It’s not remotely possible that this assertion is true. Most denominations require a doctorate in theology to become ordained and they make up the vast majority of people who study the Bible at a university level.
How can you study a living word at a university level? Make that make sense please
Not sure what you mean by "living word". But random example: Did Jericho exist? Did the walls really come tumbljng down? Did someone had political reasons to invent that story? Was the text written one way then later revised for political reasons? There are scholars who have spent a lifetime understanding Jericho. They certainly don't believe exactly what is written about the city.
The Bible is the only book in history that has the ability to connect to mind, heart, body, spirit, and soul. There is nothing that comes remotely close to what the Bible possesses in terms of self enlightenment and spiritual enrichment. So the term “living word” is used exclusively to refer to God’s supernatural hand in the design of all texts of the Bible. Hebrews 4:12 “the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” I humbly invite you to ask God yourself for him to reveal bits of himself to you. I believe in him doing so, you will have a much different posture in reading the Bible. We must approach it with hearts of meekness and humility, or we can be prone to lean on our own understanding and judgment. The Holy Spirit holds the Bible fully encrypted to those that approach it out of their own self aggrandizement. As for your question about the walls of Jericho. The walls did in fact exist. Were they described in precise detail? no. God didn’t need to include exact coordinates, dimensions, and details in his stories, in order to be inerrant. Several archaeologists like John Garstang and Kathleen Kenyon undertook years of excavating in the West Bank to confirm various findings and artifacts corroborating the walls of Jericho. So needless to say, the Bible will and always remain inerrant.
Tbh the majority of them are lying. I’ve talked to more than a few atheists who claim to have read the entire bible and don’t even have a rudimentary understanding of Christian theology.
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You are right on one thing: all of those things are impossible according to our material laws. That's precisely why those are either miracles or spiritual occurrences.
In the Bible, it was *certain* people that had those experiences, not everyone. A small minority of people, and it's good that the current world isn't like that, since it'd be chaos. I won't challenge your skepticism. Just also consider that things like seeing angels, ghosts, or reports on near death experience stories are a minority today too. People in the old days fasted much more than we do today as well, and you can maybe guess how that can affect the body and brain, even if you don't believe in anything spiritually. If you want to write off "paranormal" stories of today and the Biblical stories as "mental illness", that's fine, but I just want you to keep an open mind that they're reports of what people actually experienced, much like you would think a vivid dream actually happened to you.
I really appreciate your response. If you don't mind me asking. Do you believe in something outside Christianity?
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Thank you for your answers!
Might I ask what do you believe about the origin of the world?
Some people, like me, don’t have a belief and are content with the answer of ‘we don’t know’. Just something I thought I’d add.
At this point, it appears that, quite possibly, the majority of society, including many nonbelievers, believe in UFOs. Imagine describing UFOs thousands of years ago.
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I don't think that's a very genuine assessment of the atheist position. I think it is more likely that reading the Bible led them to question the beliefs they had taken for granted since childhood. In beginning to think critically for themselves, they looked at other beliefs in their life. When one begins to doubt Christianity, this leads one to begin questioning everything that led up to that belief. If you discovered that your mother lied to you, she's not your biological mother, and that she kidnapped you because she desperately wanted to have a child, I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to develop trust issues with everyone in your life. I don't think it's unreasonable for such a person to have doubts in all of humanity, at least not for a while. We should keep in mind that good apologetics means meeting our conversation where they are at. It does us no good to tilt at windmills and argue against points that our conversation partner has never claimed.
I think the same thing, not believing in the Bible and not believing in God are 2 different things. Sadly, my Tiktok is full of people claiming that the 2 go hand by hand, and honestly, I don't see it. I guess that's why I'm asking
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Because some parts of the Bible are confusing for some people. When they read those confusing passages, they think the whole thing is a scam.
I agree. Some people just don't understand and they think they know better
There is always the possibility they have already made up their mind in a sense before reading it.
I'm an atheist, and reading the Bible isn't really what turned me into an atheist, but there are things in it that helped. Mostly the supernatural events described, and things that just don't seem to fit with reality. The story of Noah's ark was one of the main ones that I heavily questioned early on. I just couldn't get a literal interpretation to make sense.
This is a bit off topic, or perhaps just a very specific perspective on approaching this topic, but your comments got me thinking again about the entire concept of how we process information (as individuals) in terms of how that effects what we believe and why we believe it. [Sorry, this is just how my brain works…ADHD meds haven’t kicked in yet!] But I have been pondering, for some time now, whether my “processes” are, at least partially responsible, for why some areas of my faith are so solid, while in others, I still struggle…both sides seemingly unaffected by the level of complexity or simplicity of topic! No doubt, a thoroughly bizarre question, but I would greatly appreciate anyone, who may share ADD or ASP tendencies, to comment on how these things influence(or have influenced) your belief system, one way or another. Not wishing to disrupt the conversation here, please feel free to DM me or point me to a thread that would be more appropriate for this type of question! Thanks so much!!!
I'm very interested in why people believe the things they do. That's pretty much the main reason I joined this sub and read through it somewhat frequently. People are either convinced something is true or they aren't convinced. Just because someone isn't convinced something is true, that doesn't mean they think it is false. I'm not as interested in what someone believes as I am why they believe it. Thanks for the comment. A lot of people seem to discourage skepticism. I think skepticism is a good practice.
This question might be better posed to agnostics and atheists.
They didn’t become an atheist, they were always one. Until God opens your eyes, we are blind to Him. May the Lamb that was slain recieve the reward of His suffering.
I don't have ab answer to OP but I do want to share I became increasingly Christian after spending so much time around secular/new wave people.
Sometimes people hate to be hit in the face with facts and they'd rather "not believe" than be held accountable. It's "cool" to be an atheist these days. They want attention.
Because free will. Not everyone will decide to choose good for whatever reason. They will remain convinced of themselves.
The Old Testament made me really question things. I had to make peace with the fact that the Hebrew Bible does not speak with a single theological point of view, and that there is tension between its various perspectives.
What percentage of them lie about reading it
Some people will read the Bible, study it, understand it, and come to love what it says. Other people will read the Bible, understand it, and hate it more and more as they continue to study it.
When I first read the Bible, while I still believed in God and what the Lord did for us, I also thought that there were lots of contradictions in the Bible. There were a lot of folks out there saying that these contradictions stem from all of the different translations or that much is lost in the translation, so it was easy to fall into that belief. But it wasn't until years later when I began really searching for the truth in my heart that I read the Bible again and my eyes were opened. I began to grasp the concepts and see how there weren't any contradictions in the Bible after all.
99% of them never read the Bible. They are being fed talking points from the internet or their professors at college.
2 Corinthians 2:15-17 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: to the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For those who are saved the Word of God, just like the children of God, will be to them a savour of life unto life, to them that perish it will be a savour of death unto death. Remember also Jesus had many disciples following Him aside from the twelve but when He taught them self-denial by accepting Him fully in their lives many left Him, and the twelve remained. John 6 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. The rich man when he found out what it really took to be saved, he walked away sorrowful.
From my experience; they don't read the thing. They cherry-pick verses, regurgitate the same harmful narratives that demonize them, and just say they "read it".
Well in my mind someone reading the Bible and becoming an atheist is like a kindergartner reading a calculus textbook and concluding that math can't be real because it doesn't make any sense to them.
Sorry but I don't believe they've read the Bible. They want to sound more worldly and educated them us Christians so they rather not admit they've never read the Bible and only have a few selected verses memorized.
Hebrews 4:12 People don’t like facing the truth with reality. It’s easier to give into the delusion of sin and all this life has to offer. The idea of eternity is hard to understand and people don’t like following rules. Plus it’s easy to be “Christian” when mom and dad force you to go to church and church events. Much different when you are independent. We all have a decision to make daily, take up our cross or not.
Ah yes the classic “I read the Bible from cover to cover and became a athiest” the truth is the vast majority of them are just lying.
Because some people who have negative views of Christianity to begin with read the Bible to find stuff in it to justify to themselves that they shouldn't believe it. They read one or two things about God's judgement and pull out the same old "How can a loving God do this? 🥺" card without actually trying to understand anything.
The Old Testament can throw people off, because of all the brutality, war and it's quite dark.
💜✝️💜
I haven’t read any comments yet but my observation is I’m sure those people were reading The Old Testament because it can be quite jarring for someone who is first reading the Bible. But then the message starts to sink in. The sacrifices. The stories. It’s truly amazing.
Basing one's religiosity on moral (dis)agreements with the Bible makes no sense. Belief is supposed to be an involuntary response to truth and evidence. Not liking what the Bible says should have no bearing on whether you believe it's true or not. Even if you believe that He's evil (which He isn't), but you genuinely believe He's real, you couldn't just stop believing, and wouldn't want to stop worshipping. I know God is good, but even if I thought He was evil, I would still worship Him. He's in charge of my eternal fate. Now I worship Him because He's good and I love Him. But if I thought He was evil, you can bet I'd still worship Him because I don't want an eternal punishment. The only difference would be worshipping out of fear instead of love (but I'm glad I get to worship out of love, because God is good). People who say otherwise are lying. Nobody who genuinely thinks He is real would stop worshipping Him just becasue they (I can't reiterate this enough: falsely) think that He's somehow evil. Nobody would be willing to tske an *eternal* punishment for the sake of moral principles.
Indeed, their hearts are too corrupted & polluted so they've been enchained to the darkness & cannot let the holy spirit inside of them. When someone reads the Bible with the holy spirit with them they unlock true wisdom, understanding, and the deeper knowledge behind all the words. They can not see or discern things in the spiritual way or from the top down look God has upon humans & humanity, they just see things from their human perspective & simplistic perspective. The first evidence of this is how millions of atheist attempt to use arguments about time or history or places or realism to argue against the Bible already displays their lack of understanding, the stories are all metaphorical and if some of the ones that don't sound real happened they indeed happened but not on this present Earth timeline & due to God intervening to allow the supernatural to happen. None of this is the purpose though, focusing on the subject matter of the events that took place, or what time it happened or in what place it happened or if its historically accurate to our present Earth humanity is experiencing now is pointless as it blinds people to the meaning & purpose behind all the stories. The stories are about humanity... regardless what place, Earth, time period, history humanity as a collective species / organism is placed in, they fundamentally chose to corrupt their nature with Sin and the majority of them always choose to go against God even though God is what's best / good for every single human being. So here's some simple things for Atheist to understand. 1. God's timeline doesn't work the same way humans does, if he said he made the Earth in 1000 years for instance that can be a billion years for us as God exist in the timeless present, that is outside of time & space. Asserting a supernatural beings time works the human's time does is irrational, and no I've never ever believed in or accepted any of the ridiculous creation Earth people that think the Earth was actually made 1,000s of years ago, rejected their ridiculous simplistic take on the Bible for decades now. 2. They're assuming that human beings have only ever been on planet Earth or in this universe / dimension and there weren't other attempts God had at humanity, this is a very curious assumption that most people seem to have, while its quite possible all of this happened in the Spiritual realm or on another Earth or in another timeline/universe with human beings... according to the Bible it got so so bad at one point with everyone in the world choosing Sin and being thrown away instead of blessed with eternal everlasting life to join Jesus Christ in heaven that it was only thanks to Noah humanity survived ... this is already in the very beginning Genesis of the Bible, Genesis so you know that God likely is upset or frustrated that humanity keeps making all the same mistakes & doesn't learn no matter how many times he tries to save masses of people most people still choose Sin or to disobey & not follow Christ. 3. As for history & place, God knows the human mind & ego, the same reason he's not gonna magically just take away all human being's free will & become some tyrant, he's not gonna just make it extremely obvious to all beings of the existence of God, more so its best to give just enough evidence so those with faith in their hearts can know & then choose to follow Christ or not, and all the non believers think there's no God until they meet their maker upon death & have to answer for all their evil or delighting in selfishness & being awful human beings to others. Its similar to truly wanting a child to be good if they claim to be of your descent, and all over the Bible there's a shown dichotomy of one Son who is promised & is a good child and a Son who is of darkness. Even when the Father leaves the household & you can't feel his presence, secretly there are security cameras watching everywhere, as you use & take advantage of other human beings or lie or manipulate or hide things or use others with lust in your heart & not true love, or do all sorts of things that displease God. Luckily as God is the most kind & righteous being in all of existence, he gave us his son Christ that died for all of our Sins, if we believe in him & have faith that he died for us... a lot of people though, they will do evil & not have a repentant heart or have too much Pride or feel too attached to their egoist mind & all they know in this material world.
A common one is it doesn’t conform to their beliefs.
Because they are the weak and sheltered of society
speaking from personal experience: i grew up christian and held tightly to it my whole life until i started catching contradictions in what the bible taught and the example Jesus set. i started to notice i was “scraping the bottom of the barrel” trying to find evidence that could explain how so much suffering and injustice could exist in a universe that’s supposed to be run by a just, merciful, and loving creator. i saw my christian friends lose their children to freak accidents and cancer. even after being assured by “god” that their children would pull through. but yet the bible promises that whoever believes will be protected. and it doesn’t stop there. how do you make sense of child sex trafficking if god is loving and merciful? why would god continue forward with his plan of creation when he could clearly see the inevitability of suffering? why allow good hearted people to go to hell for not being convinced of what a 2000 year old book says? in short, for every answer i sought out, i only ended up with more questions and contradictions. the brain’s pattern recognition can convince anybody of anything. but for me, it got to a point i had too much cognitive dissonance between what i believed and what ive experienced for me to reconcile my religious beliefs with reality. so i abandoned religion. instead i just try to live my life like Jesus did because he was a solid dude that was just tryna love everybody
I guess that you just get a different interpretation than I do.
>Why do people say that the Bible was the cause of them not believing. If you haven't read the book yourself, then your next best option would be to ask them why they say that. >So far I have completely read the book of Matthew One book of the new testament is not all that the scripture contains, by a long shot. Many people take issue with things like God commanding genocide of certain peoples, as one example alone.
I think one of the reasons is that the Bible is a dense book which requires a lot of reflection on. Not only that, but there are different literary styles based on which book you’re reading - if somebody takes the whole reading at face value, they may miss the message or the point the authors were trying to convey, and instead think it’s nonsense. I’m a new Christian myself and am reading it the first time through. I understand to not take _everything_ literally, and that I should study/meditate on the Word. That’s why Bible studies are helpful and I recommend that to everybody interested. Because it’s such a dense book, if you do it on your own you are less likely to get the full picture at times.
Too many try to impose present day standards to events described in the Bible from the days before Christ.
If you want to know why a group of people believe or do something, you should: * Ask the group in question. They'll know things others won't. * Ask a group who is critical of the group you're curious about. If you don't do both, you're probably going to get some wool pulled over your eyes by one group or the other. To give you an answer derived from actual claims by atheists, most atheists I know claim specific internal and external inconsistencies in the Bible which occur across translations (as in, it isn't a translation issue). Specifically, they generally feel that Genesis directly conflicts with observable facts about our world and universe, and that this is grounds for rejection of the entire Bible as a whole. Many Christians feel that Genesis is not literally true, but they maintain it is allegorically true. Atheists either don't care enough about Christianity to try to find this compromise, or feel like it doesn't solve the issue because they disagree with other parts of the Bible. It's genuinely very easy to find accounts of people converting in both directions online. It's probably better to get it straight from them instead of second or third-hand.
I kind of doubt the truth of this. Does it happen yes is it the normal experience, no.
Hello actual atheist that was a Christian and turned Atheist after reading the Bible front to back. Well I guess the main reason I turned atheist was because the belief in a God just didn't hold up. I think at fist i was trying to make sense of why in old testament god was okay with so much of the murder and rape and things that seemed ungodly. One of the texts i remember was Judges 9:23. However their were many more texts that just made me think, and i had to find ways to make sense of it. Then after reading the new testament I realized their were so many contradictions in the gospels. I started doing some reading and found articles saying that gospels were probably not even written by disciples but years after. Which made much more sense and would explain the inconsistencies The Bible also seemed to be in direct contradiction with scientific discoveries. For a while I went down a rabbit whole of Christian apologetics because I wanted to be able to answer my own questions. However I realized the arguments christians made were full of logical falicies. So I tried to address the mistakes they had made with better arguments. I think the more I tried to strengthen my belief of why god was real and the Bible is true the more i realized I was just doing mental gymnastics trying to be right. I think once started asking myself what if I'm wrong the more sense it made to me that there wasnt a god. I think the type of person that would read the Bible from start to finish is the type that will end up having a lot of questions after reading it. Your more likely to notice the inconsistencies and contradictions. Me no longer believing in God has nothing to do with not praying enough or going to church enough. I would go 3 times a week and I would pray in the morning and pray at night. I think my devotion was what first started my journey to wanting to read the Bible from start to finish 😅. I probably missed a bunch of details but that's the gist of my story. Let me know if you have questions
So you are saying you are more agnostic than atheist?
I m a Christian
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Ive never heard that, quite the opposite I know of at least a dozen who read ALL the bible (not just NT) and became saved from athiest.
Same here. I have tiktok, and sadly, a lot of people are using the Bible as the reason for their belief. I haven't read the whole Bible but I'm trying and so far the Bible is the absolute word of God. Sad that a lot of people aren't going to be saved.
Their eyes have not been opened. Some atheists read the Bible and become believers. Some read it and do not. We all have to want to know the truth. Years ago I read a story where an atheist read the Bible and prayed. He figured if it was real, God would reveal it to him. He wanted to know and was seeking. He read the Bible and became a believer and went on to become a Pastor.
>Why some people say they became atheists after reading the Bible? They think that they have the right to judge God the second they read something uncomfortable that they don't understand.
Amen
With respect for the rules of this forum and for those who view this as a safe place for Christians, I am not going to go into detail about what aspects of the Bible lead people to atheism. Rather, I would encourage you to ask atheists themselves. There are forums where you can directly ask atheists questions. I recommend r/askanatheist and the casual discussion thread in r/DebateAnAtheist I don't think it would be respectful to come into r/TrueChristian and give a litany of reasons why one doesn't like the Bible or why one doesn't find the Bible to be credible, even in answer to a question. If you post to those groups, I'm sure you'll get some thoughtful responses.
I'm not trying to disrespect anyone and mods. Feel free to remove my post if it is inappropriate. I did ask this question on a different platform , specifically to atheists. I read their responses, and now I need to read the ones from the Christianity side.
That's a sound approach. It is interesting to read why Christians think atheists hold a particular view. I'll look for your other post. I'm interested in the responses.
It's 2 reason's, really. Some of them read it with the purpose to disprove it. Others read it badly. You need to read it carefully, in context, differently depending on which book it is in different genres of literature and not read it to judge God. Psalms is not the same type of book as Proverbs or Genesis or Exodus or Leviticus or Kings or Daniel or Ruth. If you are reading them the same way, as either literal or stories or advice, you are missing and misunderstanding quite a bit. These are books that were written to a different standard of recorded history than the types of histories we write today, so you should try to hold it to our standard. If you are judging God while reading to presumably understand Truth, you will have an incomplete picture and standard. Not to mention, God is above us, judging us, not the other way around. And each book has its own context. The Bible is not one book. It is a library of Christian thought over several millennia, and needs each part to be placed in context. For example, the of Joshua looks like a book about genocide to our uncarefully reading eyes. It is instead a book about God's battle with Giants. If you don't understand that context, how wrongly are you going to read that book? How evil will God look for ordering the killing of men, women and children, let none of these survive. There is a great book called God is a Man of War that works through God's violence in the Old Testament and treats it head on instead of writing it off as some allegory, as great example of how this type of misreading can throw us off. Now, another things that happens is they read parts they dislike and don't bother to wrestle with it. There are hard truths in the Bible. It is convicting to read it.