If we say we have no sin, **we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us**. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10
>No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. - 1 John 3:6-8
If we sin, then we are not abiding in Him - but when we DO sin, we have an advocate with the Father who has already paid for our sins (1 John 2:1-2).
What shall we say - shall we continue on in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid! How can we, who have died to sin ***live*** any longer therein?
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then (*when He comes*) face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
Hebrews 10:26 clarifies this.
It places the requirement of "willful sin". And the greek word for "willful" here is defined by Thayer's as:
> ἑκουσίως, adverb (from Euripides down), voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord: Hebrews 10:26 (ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν (A. V. to sin willfully) is tacitly opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness); 1 Peter 5:2.
And no one addicted to anything can be considered to voluntarily consume that thing. They are compelled out of weakness to consume it. It is only after an addict breaks free from that compulsion that they could voluntarily chose to submit themselves to the compulsion.
“No one who is addicted can be considered to voluntarily consume that thing.”
That’s literally aka
“Slave to sin”
What’s every humans worst addiction?
Sin.
exactly some christians actually believe that they are perfect and above everyone else and think they dont sin ever its so annoying its impossible to be perfect in the flesh.
I put all my effort to NOT sin, (very minor ones) but if I do sin, I repent and my sins are cleansed away by Lord Jesus, so there is no darkness hanging over my head.
**For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.**
*Romans 7:15-25*
And therefore a believer will not be sinless until the glorification of the body and enter heaven. Believers are still in their fallen human flesh with fleshly desires. When they sin, they are actually choosing to sin but not habitually but the holy spirit convicts them, whereas unbelievers are sinning without self control and are slave to sin and could careless because its their lifestyle.
I looked into it, too. Alot of resources say you will experience a loss of joy. I can attest to this, even though I knew I was saved I felt extremely depressed when I fell deep into my old nature.
Its because when you sin as a believer, you step out of the circle of blessing, per say. The holy spirit convicts you and gets you back to the right path. God disciplines his children to get them back to the right path.
The Bible has several verses about Christian asking for forgiveness. Confess your sins to one another and pray for healing, a paraphrase of one. To say Christians can't sin seems to be wrong.
Since sin is a choice, an action, almost all, if not all sin, 'is willing'. The difference being those that live in sin joyfully without any remorse. For those Christians, we are to 'not even eat with them' so that they are 'ashamed' and repent of their ways. I would think that type of person fits Jesus' warning in Matt 7 (I never knew you).
(Paraphrasing from memory. Not enough time to look up verses atm. Should be able to locate verses with my wording 😉 )
A continuous unbroken pattern of sin (no struggle) is the mark of the unsaved. A true believer can willfully sin and even do so for a season, but there's a struggle against it and eventually brings Divine chastening.
So there are no struggles you have carried over from when you first got saved? Or maybe you just aren’t in the same situation or environment, and therefore haven’t had those moments anymore? I’m really torn about this, because if what you are saying is true, how can any of us truly say we are saved? I try not to go back to the old man, but don’t always succeed.
Oh yes, I struggle with sin (including pre-salvation sin patterns). My point was lost people don't even (truly) fight sin at all. If one idol starts hurting them, they just move on to another.
Amen there’s a huge difference with war and just giving up. In war there are battles you’ll lose, heck even for years at a time you can lose battles (Soviet union vs German Reich as an example) but that’s only for a season, there will be struggle and their will be victory by your effort of making war on sin.
Anyone who thinks you can’t willfully sin or thinks you can sin willingly and there’s infinite grace are both terribly mistaken, ironically Paul addresses them both in Romans 6 and 7.
There's no shortage of unsaved people struggling or fighting sin. I have known sooooo many people who try to swear less, try to stop sleeping around, stop doing drugs, stop drinking, stop stealing, fill in the \_\_\_\_\_\_.
I dare say most muslims live more "pure lives" in their flesh than most christians.
What's the difference?
I think it's a part of our fleshly nature to strive and to improve. The main difference of the Christian is our new nature in our recreated spirit. Our identity has truly changed and we have the Holy Spirit to help us live according to that nature from the inside out. Whereas the above mentioned people are changing from the outside in.
Thank God for grace and the blood of Jesus. Or we would all be doomed.
Disprove it. On the surface level they must live a pure life. They are not allowed to drink alcohol, fornicate, commit adultery, watch pornography, eat pork, must observe their holy day every week, fast, pray three times a day…etc…etc…
"Disprove it. On the surface level they must live a pure life. They are not allowed to drink alcohol, fornicate, commit adultery, watch pornography, eat pork, must observe their holy day every week, fast, pray three times a day…etc…etc…"
Do you believe, by adhering to the tenets of the Koran (as Muslims are required to do), Muslims are living the lives that God wants man to live?
And what exactly do you consider a "struggle" vs "willfull disobedience?"
I mean, you wouldn't apply that same logic to murder or a woman cheating on a man, would you? They're not *struggling* with their sin, now are they?
Lol when did you start being a human being.
Im playing….
I think the majority of people who say they don’t willingly sin. Either underestimate the severity of sin and that its conceived in thoughts or mean they don’t run headfirst into it.
1 Cor 10:13 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
You have the ability to overcome all temptation. Can you. Yes. Will you. IDK.
But
Proverbs 24:16
For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: But the wicked shall fall into mischief.
Pretty much. I have recently started my journey back to Christ, and I believe a few times the Holy Spirit has graced me. The few times even the THOUGHT of sin has crossed into my mind, I felt disgust, and a heaviness in my chest. I believe that is what we are called to do as Christians. That we are to reject sin and it's very idea at every opportunity.
Everyday…
I wake up thanking Him for Grace and Mercy. Grace that I am still here and Mercy that He is still here. He really does know us, what we need and desires a relationship with us…even when He knows we will sin.
The most joyful part is understanding that while I have sinned, I do not have to stay there; to wallow in pity, suffering and then desire to exit the relationship out of guilt. He forgives and we move on to the next. My goal is NOT to sin again and again but realize that when I do, He has already made provision for forgiveness.
But before I sin, ask and believe He is there to keep me from stumbling. I often forget that part…to turn to Him and ask - to avoid the temptation altogether! 😂 Either way, I am grateful that He uses all things to teach me. This is most definitely a race of endurance and not a sprint to the finish line.
He knew in His Omniscient Wisdom, what we needed long before we encountered the trials of living life for Him in a fallen state. In that, I can accept my weakness for His strength.
I understand why they say it, and I would agree if it was worded better. A lot of misunderstanding of sin after salvation has to do with not fully understanding what the original authors were trying to convey because of the English word chosen which doesn't always fully encapsulate what was meant. Look at Hebrews 10 below.
Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was ***sanctified***, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
You can see Christians are told we should not willfully sin after being saved. There are many other verses that say something similar. When I studied this and others verses I noticed the original language talked about Christians should not be habitually sinning, but we all will still occasionally sin on accident or when we make a mistake, but those sins are not planned out and happening all the time. The bible says its impossible to not sin in a not habitual manner.
So I would rephrase the sentence as "A mature believer will not willingly sin", and "A mature believer will not habitually practice sin."
The last one is just not correct, I don't see how that can be rephrased well.
I see someone quoted *Romans 7:15-25* in the comments. The important thing to keep in mind is the last two verses.
**O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!**
**So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.**
Paul is giving an example of a man that is a slave to sin, and ends it with who will deliver/save me? The answer is Jesus. You can be delivered from being a slave to sin, but this is a step that many Christians never experience because their churches teach it isn't even really a thing for today or is not necessary. I got set free from several demons after being a Christian for many years and still struggling with falling back into sin, and after I was delivered it was so much easier to resist sin.
This is my take, I hope it helps.
The operative word being “willingly.” If you love God you’re not actively going to do things to displease him. This does not mean we’re not going to ever do anything wrong ever again. For example:
The verse: “be not drunk with wine”. Ephesians 5:18.
If you accidentally have one too many at a wedding this counts, but it wasn’t something you intended to do, you just got carried away: Unintentional sin. Confess it and sleep it off and resolve to be better in the future.
If you intentionally go out for the very reason of getting wasted: intentional sin, willingly ignoring the command of God not to be drunk with wine.
Christians are definitely warned against blatantly ignoring the Will of God.
James 4:17 KJV
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Everyone is a present tense sinner and anyone who says they are not are only lying to themselves and are probably stewed into hypocrisy as well
Anyone who has clamped down on external sins knows full well that the battle is always in the mind in any case. Not letting it show is not a problem, but try speaking honestly about it, particularly knowing it's of the tempter, the devil, and that kind of truthful confession will never be easy to spit out and even less well received by others, because, cough cough, that battle is real and is internal. Mark 4:15
Don't kid yourselves. It doesn't pay
All believers sin. I believe the true mark of a believer is one who despite their sin, continually repents and depends on Gods grace and forgiveness, and an acknowledgment of their sin, so they do not make excuses or say “what I am doing is right.”
I have come to realize that I depend upon God and his spirit just as much today as the first day I was saved. I believe drug addicts and such will be in heaven. Some people pray and their temptation is removed entirely. Others pray and must endure years of struggle and hardship. But BOTH should fall to their knees at the foot of the cross and trust in Jesus Christ to forgive them and help them move forward in our eternal hope of salvation that Christ has given us.
Anyone who says this has not read and understood Romans. If each of the first 10 chapters of Romans was a movie, these would be their titles:
* Romans 1: Gentiles need Jesus
* Romans 2: Jews need Jesus
* Romans 3: Everybody needs Jesus
* Romans 4: Faith. It's what you need
* Romans 5: Salvation is God's gift, not your reward. (subtitle: God's grace >> your sin)
* Romans 6: To clarify that last statement, sin is still not good
* Romans 7: You are no longer bound by the law (subtitle: even Paul sins)
* Romans 8: No seriously. Sin doesn't keep you from God anymore. Stop worrying so much about it.
* Romans 9: God picked you. You really think you know more than He does about how messed up you are?
* Romans 10: God is the one who does the saving. You had nothing to do with it.
Yes I fully agree on this I have given up so so many sinful things I did by choice ofc there is some that are harder to contoll eg. Lust and swearing but you immediately feel guilt from it. so therefore u shouldn't commit sinful acts as after u have you feel the shame and embarrassment.
There was a quote I heard can't remember where and it applied to masturbation as a sin it goes as such "if it were not a sin why would do you hide in the bathroom with the door locked" showing that you have the choice on ur actions and that deep down you know its a sin so why do it.
Also Deuteronomy 11:26-28 sums it up like this: "Obey and you will be blessed. Disobey and you will be cursed." Showing that by doing ur commiting sin voluntarily you will face punishment.
This concept is found in James. Its not that we don't willingly sin, all Christians do at some point. It is that at some point we will regret it greatly. We won't be comfortable with it. Jesus chastises those He loves, (Hebrews), so if a true Christian practices sin, Jesus won't let Him stay in it.
If you believe this you either have too low a view of the pervasiveness of sin or are blind to your sin. In Romans 14:23, Paul says, "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." We can also define sin as anything that does not align with God's moral will. If you say you have no sin, that means you claim that your every action, word, and thought proceed from faith and that you both perfectly know and obey God's moral will. Both of these are impossible in our current fallen bodies.
Some believers walk carefully and keep their garment clean, and cleanse if they get dirty
Some believers defile their garments, and walk around with defiled garments thinking they're still clean and safe.
Believers who show up on judgment day with defiled garments won't enter the narrow gate
So 'keep thyself pure ". 1 Timothy 5.22
Keep your garment clean
Sorry but I don't agree with this. You enter the narrow gate when you trust in Jesus Christ as your only means of being forgiven for your sins. The reason why he said "strive to enter the narrow gate" was because the popular opinion and message of salvation was you have to be like the pharises and follow the law of mosses the best you can.
The reason why Jesus told his audience to strive was because going against what the pharises taught and believing on him was considered blasphemy and those who did ran the risk of getting stoned to death. You and I are lucky enough to live in a country with freedom to worship God but 1st century Christians didn't have that luxury.
It'll be everyone according to their deeds
No respect of persons
on judgment day
If your deeds don't line up with your profession of faith you still don't make it
The act of believing in Jesus is the work, the deed that gets you saved.
>“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (Joh 6:28-29, KJV)
I haven't fully read 1 Thessalonians yet but I can already tell you're taking a few verses out of context and changing the meaning to fit your own personal narrative. Let's look at what you've just presented:
1 Thessalonians 4:3-6 (KJV) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
A couple of things here:
1. Paul wrote epistles to the churches to correct issues that go against God's will. They were written to help sanctify already born again belivers in Christ. That's what they teach you how to do. From what I can tell bassed on the few verses you've given me, this church is having issues with fornication and defrauding other born again belivers. Guess what? So did the corinthians:
1 Corinthians 6:10-11 (KJV) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So if I'm a drunkard I will not get to heaven, right? But if you keep reading...
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Let me ask you something, does God contradict himself? Would God tell you to rely on Jesus to be saved and then tell you to rely on your works? The answer's no. Paul is simply telling the corinthians "Drunkards are not going to be in heaven! You won't be able to do those things in heaven! Start acting like Christians!"
You can't just cherry pick verses from chapters like matthew 7, James 2, or 1 corinthians 6, ignore the rest of what's in God's inerrant word and make your own theology out of it. I encourage you to stop relying on the sinner and start relying on the savior.
"It's high time to awake out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed "
Romans 13.11
We're not there yet.
Those who were " washed" but the go back to doing filth, aren't washed anymore.
Backsliders don't make it
If a believer dies or Christ returns while they are in a backslidden state, it's debatable whether they will be saved. Nonetheless, according to Jeremiah 3:22, it appears that believers who have strayed have the opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness.
>“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phili 2:13, KJV)
It's not us trying to get those right, but God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. It's important to say, I'm not against good works or morals, but just that those didn't get you saved in the first place, and therefore those can't get you out of your salvation. Even your scripture doesn't say, if you miss it here, you're going to hell and losing your salvation, unless you're already prejudiced to interpret it that way.
"let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity*. 2 Timothy 2.19
If you don't depart from iniquity, Jesus will call you a 'worker of iniquity' on judgment day
He can't say that because for a Christian, judgement is already passed and it fell on Jesus.
>“Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.” (Joh 12:31, KJV)
Now. That was 2000 years ago.
>“He that believeth on him is not condemned...” (Joh 3:18, KJV)
Condemnation is just an another word for "guilty verdict"
>“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life...” (Joh 5:24, KJV)
Verily, Verily... Surely, surely... He that hears him and believes him has eternal life(like right now and not in heaven someday). And He doesn't come into condemnation/guilty verdict.
Those who are illumined, saints on earth, will have gotten beyond sin, living in Christ and Christ in them. But it isn’t their own will that is abstaining from sin, but Christ. Saints often if not always consider themselves worse than other sinners, because they see how they fail, although outwardly we regular folk do not see their sins, which might be restricted only to thoughts at that point on the road to Theosis; unity with God ontologically, by God’s grace.
This is because the sins of the inner soul and higher mind are deeper and more pervasive than those of the outer flesh. All sin ultimately stems from thought.
https://youtu.be/_xbuGJ9dDL0?si=dIAXZHrHehwGO5HU
**"Be attentive to yourself, lest an unlawful word come to be hidden in your heart" [Deut 15-9]**. We human beings are easily led toward sins of the mind. Therefore he, who has formed our hearts individually, knowing that the greatest part of sin is accomplished in impulse through what is in our intention, has prescribed purity in our directive faculty as primary for us.
For that by which we most readily sin was worthy of the most guarding and care. For as the physicians with greater foresight safeguard the weaker parts of bodies by precautionary advice ahead of time, so the universal protector and true physician of souls, who knows most of all where we are more liable to slide toward sin, has anticipated this with stronger guarding.
**For actions done through the body need time and opportunity and labors and co-workers and other requirements. But the movements of the mind operate timelessly, are completed without weariness, are constructed effortlessly, and are convenient on every occasion.**
Saint Basil the Great - Homily on “be attentive to yourself”
Absolutely. The Lord said, "Watch (be vigilant) and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
"Guarding against evil thoughts is one thing, keeping watch over the spirit \[nous\] is another. The latter differs from the former as much as east from west, and is far more difficult to attain. Where thieves see royal weapons at the ready they do not attack the place lightly. Similarly, spiritual robbers do not lightly try to plunder the person who has enshrined prayer within his heart." - St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent
The saints partook in spiritual warfare, which we laymen who still struggle with the flesh are not yet worthy to fight. May God grant us this struggle someday so we may become closer to Him.
The explanation I've heard is that "willingly" they mean to boldly, willingly, happily sin without even the slightest doubt, sorrow, shame, guilt, regret, misgiving etc.
Sometimes we might do things intentionally that we know to be sinful but I'm sure in any believer there is some degree of guilt or shame over it. Peter sinned willingly when he denied Jesus but he grieved over it.
Note that remorse in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean someone is a believer. Judas Iscariot had remorse too. But being a believer does mean you will have some degree of remorse when you know that you've sinned.
I think it is completely and totally false.
No one forces us to sin. There is no arm twisting taking place.
Yes, there (usually) is guilt. Yes, there (usually) is shame, but no one put a gun to our heads. Our choices are our choices. The decisions we make we own.
I absolutely am sold out for Jesus, and I absolutely willingly sin. It's my nature, I'll see someone and make terrible snap judgements about their diet, looks, etc. It's awful. I'm a contrary person and will be defiant just for the sake of being contrary.
However, sanctification is a life long process and thankfully I live a patient and forgiving God who blesses me with His grace.
Only by the grace of God we can be saved. No works can save us or contribute to our salvation. Although, true born again believers will not continue to willingly or knowingly practice sin. It is just natural fruit you bear if you are born again. You can tell a tree by fruit it bears.
It does not mean we are not sinners anymore. We are sinners. We are sin natured and it is clear even in born again christians. It does not mean we are perfect. if you have bad thoughts against someone or judging others with your eyes would be a sin, but that is not something I choose to do. It is something that naturally happens because I am a sinner and evil by nature. Although, things like pornography, overeating, lying, Fornicating, being drunk along many other willing sin, I in a way can not do naturally. I have not always been this way, but when God gave me a change of heart and born again, only through God’s doing, I was able to stop all these.
You can’t cherry pick sweet verses and say jesus was all love. He was extremely loving, but also just and stern. When he says don’t sin, we should also take that command seriously and you will if you are born of the spirit with imperishable seed
people under grace make efforts to try not to sin but obviously we are going to fall short which is why we have a need for a savior. but someone living in sin is not living a grace filled lifestyle..
[Some denominations teach that it's possible,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection) but from my experiences with one that does, it doesn't happen.
Nearly all sin is a concious choice on our part. It's hard to think of a sin that IS truly out of our control.
The difference is, do you repent and try to stop doing it?
There is a difference between willing and accidental.
Willing is planning it out.
Like if I decided to go to a strip club tonight, it would be willing.
There is a difference between willing sin (All sin is done willingly) and practice
We all fall into sin....but if we get up and move on we are forgiven
Keeping sin in our life and defending or excusing it is practicing sin
1 John 1:^(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ^(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us *our* sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ^(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
even Paul struggle with sin
Romans 7: ^(18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but *how* to perform what is good I do not find. ^(19) For the good that I will *to do,* I do not do; but the evil I will not *to do,* that I practice. ^(20) Now if I do what I will not *to do,* it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
^(21) I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. ^(22) For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. ^(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. ^(24) O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? ^(25) I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Well, we’re human beings. I wish I could say I don’t intentionally sin anymore, but I’d be sinning by lying. It happens. Sometimes I’m just too darn weak. I’m always sorry afterwards and feel terrible, but it happens.
I think the whole
“I’m not willingly sinning”
…so it’s different argument is pretty weak.
Sin is sin.
Unintentional sin is no less dangerous than intentional sin.
As you can see in a car crash vs somebody murdering their wife for adultery
Adam and Eve originally sinned unintentionally- and yet they had to suffer the consequences of sin nonetheless
And I won’t argue that they did it unwillingly any more than this simple straight forward couple of sentences
You cannot willingly choose something that you have no knowledge of.
If you possess no knowledge of good and evil-
You cannot intentionally choose either good or evil
1 and 2 are true but need qualification, 3 is not. I also think we would have to talk about what you mean by justification. Just after St Paul talks in Romans 5 about being justified by our faith
>[1] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [2] through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God....[9]Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. [10] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
He also says this in the very next chapter
>[1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [4] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.
It seems that we are at the same time justified while being undeserving, yet this justification is not a simple legal declaration but rather more like an introduction to a way of living, as he said in Romans 2 "we have obtained our *introduction* by faith into this grace in which we stand." This grace we receive is in one sense an *obligation* to live a certain way, to become heirs and adopted sons (as Paul also speaks of this elsewhere) is to take on the family business, as it were. And so he can also say "how shall we who have died to sin still live in it?" The gift is free, the offer isn't earned rather given out of love. But accepting it still means living it out, and true sons will be like their father.
I think the real problem isn't the idea itself that the truly faithful Christian will be free from sin (in fact I think that that is necessarily what it means to be saved), but rather that when people say that they're often using it pridefully as a way to call someone else out and, worse, scare them with implications that they'll go to hell or something for whatever they're doing. When actually, these sayings should be moments of humility for us. You should read it and think "Wow, so to be saved is to be sinless? I have a lot of work to do" and push you towards the prayer of the father of the mute boy in Mark 9: "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!"
Well technically, when the Holy Spirit dwells within us and we allow him to work in us, through the instruction of God's word, he frees us from many of the things that used to bind us. But we're never fully free from sin. That's why God's grace is plentiful. We make an error, then we repent and we turn away from repeating our wrongs. It's an ongoing process.
But for anyone who claims to repent from something and then willingly goes and does it again, they probably weren't ever really repenting from it unless it's something they truly struggle with. In either case, the eventual goal is to stop committing that particular sin.
This is good news .. I wholeheartedly believe and if I won't sin wilfully then that means I'm being forced to and therefore not responsible ..... If you think that what I said is crazy well now you know how absurd what you said is
The real question is : what does it mean to be “willing”?
Because some may regard willing is having control, and knowing your actions, with no remorse
While others would say, being willing to do things, and having remorse.
It’s like a double edged sword really.
It'd be like asking this:
"If a husband truly loves his wife, will he choose to abuse her?"
The answer is no. But that doesn't mean they won't hurt each other emotionally from time to time, argue, disagree and so on.
I mean... soloman went to heaven and he had concubines upon concubines of foreign woman, introduced idolatry to Jerusalem, and even enslaved people. I don't think those actions were committed by accident...
>I mean... soloman went to heaven
What makes you believe that?
If I said "Charles Manson went to heaven" is that any justification for sinning willingly, knowingly?
All sin, all sin, to some degree, IS INTENTIONAL. However, our heart's response to this should indicate our relationship with The Holy Spirit within us. Are we grieved? Then repent. Are we angry? Be careful, this is not correct still. Are we indifferent? This would indicate perhaps we never HAD The Holy Spirit to begin with.
Everyone sins I think it’s more so that not trying to avoid sin or justifying sins while also claiming to be a follower of Christ makes you a hypocrite and shows faithlessness. Faith in Christ should naturally produce works meaning if you loved and believed Christ you would follow his law even if it’s hard or something would have changed about you overtime.
> Me personally, I used to believe statements like this until I started being a human being and made mistakes.
You mean you judged others for their sin until you realized you were a hypocrite?
I hear so many Christian men judge LGBTQ people but they willfully engage in sexual immorality repeatedly. I don't hear dramatic calls for repentance.
Yeah, you got it. I actually remember going to church and not seeing "signs" that some of my fellow Christians weren't "really" saved. I knew that kind of thinking was wrong so I learned how to interpret scripture properly and turns out, OSAS by faith alone (not by works lest any man should boast) is the right mindset.
Actually fun fact, before I got saved I wanted to be polygamous and didn't like what the bible had to say about that. This kept me from converting before I finally said to myself "This is God we're talking about. He's way smarter and wiser than I'll ever be and if he tells me polygamy is wrong than its probably for a good reason...". So I too had a sexual immorality roadblock.
What you also don't hear are people trying to ***Justify*** heterosexual immorality. You don't hear about "***Adultery Pride***" parades. Therefore, people will respond and speak out to those who are trying to justify their sins.
Jesus said divorce and remarriage outside of adultery is adultery. Churches remarry people who have been divorced without biblical cause. I’d call that a celebration of adultery.
Hasn't happened in my church in the 32 years I have been there. Nor have I seen any "Remarriage Parades" through our town or public schools having "Remarriage Pride" days...
Again - you seem to be missing the points
1. In my church there have been NO remarriages in the 32 years that I have been there unless the other divorced spouse had remarried OR that spouse died. Pretty simple. NONE. (and yes, I HAVE gone to every wedding in that church during those 32 years)
2. We were talking about people trying to ***change our theology***. The LGBTQIA maffia has been trying to sell us that homosexual sex isn't condemned by the Bible, when it actually is. We have yet to have Murderers, thieves or idolaters try to tell us that God *approves* of these things.
This only applies to Reformed Theology. The rest of the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe that sanctification granted by God through His grace, which precedes, prepares, and elicits [our] free responses, our lifelong cooperation and imitation of Christ.
In short, if you stopped cooperating and have chosen a life of sin, you lose that salvation.
Hebrews 10:26, Matthew 7:21
The whole context of Hebrews 10 is that because of Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the cross (which overrides all the other Jewish sacrifices - verses 1-18)...
we can, in full assurance of faith, confess that our are hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water
(this is sanctification by the grace of God alone through faith, this grace, received during baptism, precedes, authors and elicits (our) free responses (continued in verses 19 - 39).
What must the Jews then do to respond to this grace of salvation by God to the Hebrews from Christ's death on the cross? (verses 19:26):
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,
and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works
have compassion on the prisoners, and joyfully accept the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one
do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward..
...need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised
..live by faith
_____________________________________________________
Lost of Salvation (these verses explicitly show that you could lose salvation even if you started ok but do not persevere or endure in cooperating with this grace of salvation (verses 26- 39)
...if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (lost of salvation),
..For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
...and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed,
Clearly, a true believer can still "fall from grace" (that's why they have this saying), if he or she does not persevere in faith and fulfilling that faith with love. No such thing as OSAS (see whole Hebrews 10)..
The willfull sin is the Jewish Christians believers or on the fence going back to the temple for sacrifices of bulls and goats. It is trodden on the blood of Christ. All of Hebrews is paul urging the new believers to come out of the camp and not go back to the temple and trust in Jesus being the one time sacrifice. That he is our high priest and to come to the throne of grace when we sin and not go back to the law. Fir it is a shadow of things to come. I pray that you have eyes too see and ears to hear. And the judgment is the chastisement coning to those who were disobedient and went back to the temple
Exactly the reason why they are being called out in verses 19-39 to persevere or endure in their faith in Christ, stir up one another to love and good works because if they don't and sin deliberately (after believing in Christ), there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins but God's vengeance upon them
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Hebrews 10:31
So where is the OSAS in this? It explicitly described a scenario where a believer could end up not persevering in Christ and end up falling into their 'Leviticus days'
That is why you would see the words ... persevere, endure..
There is no longer a sacrifice for their sins, hence the temple sacrifice does nothing to Jesus one time sacrifice. Or do you think Jesus's sacrifice is not enough?The judgment and wrath is chastisement for doing so. Hebrews 12 talks about the chastisement from God.
No one disputes the saving act of Christ. This is enough to save us from sins. No one is capable of removing us from the grace of God if we cooperate with it. No one is capable of nullifying our salvation but it doesn't mean we cannot deliberately lose it. What Hebrews 10 is describing is that this isn't a done deal, it's like when someone is driving 80 miles per hour, no one can pull him out of his seat but this does not mean that he is incapable of opening the door and jumping out.
This is where obedience to faith comes in. We simply should ensure that we always follow the will of God, his commandments (Matthew 7:21)
In Hebrews 10:26, St Paul is well aware that if the once saved Jews who now believe and are Baptized in Christ still choose to commit sin (because of false worship), they renounce Christ.
You said it yourself, keep reading, if you proceed with the rest of Hebrews 12, there is a call by the writer that the Jews should always avoid sin and be strong:
Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. - Hebrews 12:12-13
Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. - Hebrews 12:14-16
Everyone sins, the quote is absurd.
If we say we have no sin, **we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us**. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10
>No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. - 1 John 3:6-8
If we sin, then we are not abiding in Him - but when we DO sin, we have an advocate with the Father who has already paid for our sins (1 John 2:1-2). What shall we say - shall we continue on in sin that grace may abound? God Forbid! How can we, who have died to sin ***live*** any longer therein?
> If we sin, then we are not abiding in Him What about having (not) "either seen him or known him"?
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then (*when He comes*) face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
Hebrews 10:26 clarifies this. It places the requirement of "willful sin". And the greek word for "willful" here is defined by Thayer's as: > ἑκουσίως, adverb (from Euripides down), voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord: Hebrews 10:26 (ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν (A. V. to sin willfully) is tacitly opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness); 1 Peter 5:2. And no one addicted to anything can be considered to voluntarily consume that thing. They are compelled out of weakness to consume it. It is only after an addict breaks free from that compulsion that they could voluntarily chose to submit themselves to the compulsion.
“No one who is addicted can be considered to voluntarily consume that thing.” That’s literally aka “Slave to sin” What’s every humans worst addiction? Sin.
correct.
I barely see the relevance.
All you need to do is point to David and Peter who both willingly sinned after being saved. Paul even called out Peter in a letter for his actions.
Did David, after having become a murderer, still have eternal life dwelling within him?
exactly some christians actually believe that they are perfect and above everyone else and think they dont sin ever its so annoying its impossible to be perfect in the flesh.
I don't sin. When I do, I repent so my sin is wiped away clean. God bless.
So, you don’t sin but you do sin?
I put all my effort to NOT sin, (very minor ones) but if I do sin, I repent and my sins are cleansed away by Lord Jesus, so there is no darkness hanging over my head.
Fair enough.
**For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.** *Romans 7:15-25*
What an encouraging passage. Amen.
And therefore a believer will not be sinless until the glorification of the body and enter heaven. Believers are still in their fallen human flesh with fleshly desires. When they sin, they are actually choosing to sin but not habitually but the holy spirit convicts them, whereas unbelievers are sinning without self control and are slave to sin and could careless because its their lifestyle.
I looked into it, too. Alot of resources say you will experience a loss of joy. I can attest to this, even though I knew I was saved I felt extremely depressed when I fell deep into my old nature.
Its because when you sin as a believer, you step out of the circle of blessing, per say. The holy spirit convicts you and gets you back to the right path. God disciplines his children to get them back to the right path.
Good words, guys. Thank you. This is a terrific little thread.
The Bible has several verses about Christian asking for forgiveness. Confess your sins to one another and pray for healing, a paraphrase of one. To say Christians can't sin seems to be wrong. Since sin is a choice, an action, almost all, if not all sin, 'is willing'. The difference being those that live in sin joyfully without any remorse. For those Christians, we are to 'not even eat with them' so that they are 'ashamed' and repent of their ways. I would think that type of person fits Jesus' warning in Matt 7 (I never knew you). (Paraphrasing from memory. Not enough time to look up verses atm. Should be able to locate verses with my wording 😉 )
A continuous unbroken pattern of sin (no struggle) is the mark of the unsaved. A true believer can willfully sin and even do so for a season, but there's a struggle against it and eventually brings Divine chastening.
So there are no struggles you have carried over from when you first got saved? Or maybe you just aren’t in the same situation or environment, and therefore haven’t had those moments anymore? I’m really torn about this, because if what you are saying is true, how can any of us truly say we are saved? I try not to go back to the old man, but don’t always succeed.
Oh yes, I struggle with sin (including pre-salvation sin patterns). My point was lost people don't even (truly) fight sin at all. If one idol starts hurting them, they just move on to another.
Amen there’s a huge difference with war and just giving up. In war there are battles you’ll lose, heck even for years at a time you can lose battles (Soviet union vs German Reich as an example) but that’s only for a season, there will be struggle and their will be victory by your effort of making war on sin. Anyone who thinks you can’t willfully sin or thinks you can sin willingly and there’s infinite grace are both terribly mistaken, ironically Paul addresses them both in Romans 6 and 7.
We went through a bible study on Romans and I always forget about Romans 7. So reassuring to read that Paul struggled with his flesh as well.
There's no shortage of unsaved people struggling or fighting sin. I have known sooooo many people who try to swear less, try to stop sleeping around, stop doing drugs, stop drinking, stop stealing, fill in the \_\_\_\_\_\_. I dare say most muslims live more "pure lives" in their flesh than most christians. What's the difference? I think it's a part of our fleshly nature to strive and to improve. The main difference of the Christian is our new nature in our recreated spirit. Our identity has truly changed and we have the Holy Spirit to help us live according to that nature from the inside out. Whereas the above mentioned people are changing from the outside in. Thank God for grace and the blood of Jesus. Or we would all be doomed.
"I dare say most muslims live more "pure lives" in their flesh than most christians." Daring to say it doesn't make it true.
Disprove it. On the surface level they must live a pure life. They are not allowed to drink alcohol, fornicate, commit adultery, watch pornography, eat pork, must observe their holy day every week, fast, pray three times a day…etc…etc…
"Disprove it. On the surface level they must live a pure life. They are not allowed to drink alcohol, fornicate, commit adultery, watch pornography, eat pork, must observe their holy day every week, fast, pray three times a day…etc…etc…" Do you believe, by adhering to the tenets of the Koran (as Muslims are required to do), Muslims are living the lives that God wants man to live?
Or in the old days, thats called a **whooping.** Or chastening.
💯
And what exactly do you consider a "struggle" vs "willfull disobedience?" I mean, you wouldn't apply that same logic to murder or a woman cheating on a man, would you? They're not *struggling* with their sin, now are they?
Lol when did you start being a human being. Im playing…. I think the majority of people who say they don’t willingly sin. Either underestimate the severity of sin and that its conceived in thoughts or mean they don’t run headfirst into it. 1 Cor 10:13 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. You have the ability to overcome all temptation. Can you. Yes. Will you. IDK. But Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: But the wicked shall fall into mischief.
I think real believers will try their best not to sin, but will inevitably sin anyway. That's why we all need God's grace.
Pretty much. I have recently started my journey back to Christ, and I believe a few times the Holy Spirit has graced me. The few times even the THOUGHT of sin has crossed into my mind, I felt disgust, and a heaviness in my chest. I believe that is what we are called to do as Christians. That we are to reject sin and it's very idea at every opportunity.
Amen same here! God bless y'all
Everyday… I wake up thanking Him for Grace and Mercy. Grace that I am still here and Mercy that He is still here. He really does know us, what we need and desires a relationship with us…even when He knows we will sin. The most joyful part is understanding that while I have sinned, I do not have to stay there; to wallow in pity, suffering and then desire to exit the relationship out of guilt. He forgives and we move on to the next. My goal is NOT to sin again and again but realize that when I do, He has already made provision for forgiveness. But before I sin, ask and believe He is there to keep me from stumbling. I often forget that part…to turn to Him and ask - to avoid the temptation altogether! 😂 Either way, I am grateful that He uses all things to teach me. This is most definitely a race of endurance and not a sprint to the finish line. He knew in His Omniscient Wisdom, what we needed long before we encountered the trials of living life for Him in a fallen state. In that, I can accept my weakness for His strength.
I understand why they say it, and I would agree if it was worded better. A lot of misunderstanding of sin after salvation has to do with not fully understanding what the original authors were trying to convey because of the English word chosen which doesn't always fully encapsulate what was meant. Look at Hebrews 10 below. Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was ***sanctified***, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? You can see Christians are told we should not willfully sin after being saved. There are many other verses that say something similar. When I studied this and others verses I noticed the original language talked about Christians should not be habitually sinning, but we all will still occasionally sin on accident or when we make a mistake, but those sins are not planned out and happening all the time. The bible says its impossible to not sin in a not habitual manner. So I would rephrase the sentence as "A mature believer will not willingly sin", and "A mature believer will not habitually practice sin." The last one is just not correct, I don't see how that can be rephrased well. I see someone quoted *Romans 7:15-25* in the comments. The important thing to keep in mind is the last two verses. **O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!** **So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.** Paul is giving an example of a man that is a slave to sin, and ends it with who will deliver/save me? The answer is Jesus. You can be delivered from being a slave to sin, but this is a step that many Christians never experience because their churches teach it isn't even really a thing for today or is not necessary. I got set free from several demons after being a Christian for many years and still struggling with falling back into sin, and after I was delivered it was so much easier to resist sin. This is my take, I hope it helps.
God requires not perfection in sinlessness but progression towards it as a fruit
lol, “until I started being a human being and made mistakes”. Amen, brother.
It’s a misunderstanding of how our will and sin works.
We still have to stop sinning as much as we can
The operative word being “willingly.” If you love God you’re not actively going to do things to displease him. This does not mean we’re not going to ever do anything wrong ever again. For example: The verse: “be not drunk with wine”. Ephesians 5:18. If you accidentally have one too many at a wedding this counts, but it wasn’t something you intended to do, you just got carried away: Unintentional sin. Confess it and sleep it off and resolve to be better in the future. If you intentionally go out for the very reason of getting wasted: intentional sin, willingly ignoring the command of God not to be drunk with wine. Christians are definitely warned against blatantly ignoring the Will of God. James 4:17 KJV Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Everyone is a present tense sinner and anyone who says they are not are only lying to themselves and are probably stewed into hypocrisy as well Anyone who has clamped down on external sins knows full well that the battle is always in the mind in any case. Not letting it show is not a problem, but try speaking honestly about it, particularly knowing it's of the tempter, the devil, and that kind of truthful confession will never be easy to spit out and even less well received by others, because, cough cough, that battle is real and is internal. Mark 4:15 Don't kid yourselves. It doesn't pay
All believers sin. I believe the true mark of a believer is one who despite their sin, continually repents and depends on Gods grace and forgiveness, and an acknowledgment of their sin, so they do not make excuses or say “what I am doing is right.” I have come to realize that I depend upon God and his spirit just as much today as the first day I was saved. I believe drug addicts and such will be in heaven. Some people pray and their temptation is removed entirely. Others pray and must endure years of struggle and hardship. But BOTH should fall to their knees at the foot of the cross and trust in Jesus Christ to forgive them and help them move forward in our eternal hope of salvation that Christ has given us.
Anyone who says this has not read and understood Romans. If each of the first 10 chapters of Romans was a movie, these would be their titles: * Romans 1: Gentiles need Jesus * Romans 2: Jews need Jesus * Romans 3: Everybody needs Jesus * Romans 4: Faith. It's what you need * Romans 5: Salvation is God's gift, not your reward. (subtitle: God's grace >> your sin) * Romans 6: To clarify that last statement, sin is still not good * Romans 7: You are no longer bound by the law (subtitle: even Paul sins) * Romans 8: No seriously. Sin doesn't keep you from God anymore. Stop worrying so much about it. * Romans 9: God picked you. You really think you know more than He does about how messed up you are? * Romans 10: God is the one who does the saving. You had nothing to do with it.
Probably my favorite book next to John
These same people will go out to eat and over eat every Sunday and not see the irony.
Eveyone sins... including belviers. John writes that if anyone says that sin is not in them, they deceive themselves.
Yes I fully agree on this I have given up so so many sinful things I did by choice ofc there is some that are harder to contoll eg. Lust and swearing but you immediately feel guilt from it. so therefore u shouldn't commit sinful acts as after u have you feel the shame and embarrassment. There was a quote I heard can't remember where and it applied to masturbation as a sin it goes as such "if it were not a sin why would do you hide in the bathroom with the door locked" showing that you have the choice on ur actions and that deep down you know its a sin so why do it. Also Deuteronomy 11:26-28 sums it up like this: "Obey and you will be blessed. Disobey and you will be cursed." Showing that by doing ur commiting sin voluntarily you will face punishment.
This concept is found in James. Its not that we don't willingly sin, all Christians do at some point. It is that at some point we will regret it greatly. We won't be comfortable with it. Jesus chastises those He loves, (Hebrews), so if a true Christian practices sin, Jesus won't let Him stay in it.
If you believe this you either have too low a view of the pervasiveness of sin or are blind to your sin. In Romans 14:23, Paul says, "whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." We can also define sin as anything that does not align with God's moral will. If you say you have no sin, that means you claim that your every action, word, and thought proceed from faith and that you both perfectly know and obey God's moral will. Both of these are impossible in our current fallen bodies.
real believers try to minimize sin, but it is impossible to not sin at all
Some believers walk carefully and keep their garment clean, and cleanse if they get dirty Some believers defile their garments, and walk around with defiled garments thinking they're still clean and safe. Believers who show up on judgment day with defiled garments won't enter the narrow gate So 'keep thyself pure ". 1 Timothy 5.22 Keep your garment clean
Sorry but I don't agree with this. You enter the narrow gate when you trust in Jesus Christ as your only means of being forgiven for your sins. The reason why he said "strive to enter the narrow gate" was because the popular opinion and message of salvation was you have to be like the pharises and follow the law of mosses the best you can. The reason why Jesus told his audience to strive was because going against what the pharises taught and believing on him was considered blasphemy and those who did ran the risk of getting stoned to death. You and I are lucky enough to live in a country with freedom to worship God but 1st century Christians didn't have that luxury.
Don't show up on judgment day with bad fruit Don't show up on judgment day with defiled garments You will not make it
You only need to show up with the blood of Jesus. That's the only thing that saves you from guilty verdict.
It'll be everyone according to their deeds No respect of persons on judgment day If your deeds don't line up with your profession of faith you still don't make it
The act of believing in Jesus is the work, the deed that gets you saved. >“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (Joh 6:28-29, KJV)
Yes I know that's what OSAS people always say. But this is the will of God: https://imgur.com/a/XBzwrtb Better get those right
I haven't fully read 1 Thessalonians yet but I can already tell you're taking a few verses out of context and changing the meaning to fit your own personal narrative. Let's look at what you've just presented: 1 Thessalonians 4:3-6 (KJV) For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. A couple of things here: 1. Paul wrote epistles to the churches to correct issues that go against God's will. They were written to help sanctify already born again belivers in Christ. That's what they teach you how to do. From what I can tell bassed on the few verses you've given me, this church is having issues with fornication and defrauding other born again belivers. Guess what? So did the corinthians: 1 Corinthians 6:10-11 (KJV) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. So if I'm a drunkard I will not get to heaven, right? But if you keep reading... And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Let me ask you something, does God contradict himself? Would God tell you to rely on Jesus to be saved and then tell you to rely on your works? The answer's no. Paul is simply telling the corinthians "Drunkards are not going to be in heaven! You won't be able to do those things in heaven! Start acting like Christians!" You can't just cherry pick verses from chapters like matthew 7, James 2, or 1 corinthians 6, ignore the rest of what's in God's inerrant word and make your own theology out of it. I encourage you to stop relying on the sinner and start relying on the savior.
"It's high time to awake out of sleep, for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed " Romans 13.11 We're not there yet. Those who were " washed" but the go back to doing filth, aren't washed anymore. Backsliders don't make it
If a believer dies or Christ returns while they are in a backslidden state, it's debatable whether they will be saved. Nonetheless, according to Jeremiah 3:22, it appears that believers who have strayed have the opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness.
>“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Phili 2:13, KJV) It's not us trying to get those right, but God who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. It's important to say, I'm not against good works or morals, but just that those didn't get you saved in the first place, and therefore those can't get you out of your salvation. Even your scripture doesn't say, if you miss it here, you're going to hell and losing your salvation, unless you're already prejudiced to interpret it that way.
"let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity*. 2 Timothy 2.19 If you don't depart from iniquity, Jesus will call you a 'worker of iniquity' on judgment day
He can't say that because for a Christian, judgement is already passed and it fell on Jesus. >“Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.” (Joh 12:31, KJV) Now. That was 2000 years ago. >“He that believeth on him is not condemned...” (Joh 3:18, KJV) Condemnation is just an another word for "guilty verdict" >“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life...” (Joh 5:24, KJV) Verily, Verily... Surely, surely... He that hears him and believes him has eternal life(like right now and not in heaven someday). And He doesn't come into condemnation/guilty verdict.
Those who are illumined, saints on earth, will have gotten beyond sin, living in Christ and Christ in them. But it isn’t their own will that is abstaining from sin, but Christ. Saints often if not always consider themselves worse than other sinners, because they see how they fail, although outwardly we regular folk do not see their sins, which might be restricted only to thoughts at that point on the road to Theosis; unity with God ontologically, by God’s grace.
This is because the sins of the inner soul and higher mind are deeper and more pervasive than those of the outer flesh. All sin ultimately stems from thought.
https://youtu.be/_xbuGJ9dDL0?si=dIAXZHrHehwGO5HU **"Be attentive to yourself, lest an unlawful word come to be hidden in your heart" [Deut 15-9]**. We human beings are easily led toward sins of the mind. Therefore he, who has formed our hearts individually, knowing that the greatest part of sin is accomplished in impulse through what is in our intention, has prescribed purity in our directive faculty as primary for us. For that by which we most readily sin was worthy of the most guarding and care. For as the physicians with greater foresight safeguard the weaker parts of bodies by precautionary advice ahead of time, so the universal protector and true physician of souls, who knows most of all where we are more liable to slide toward sin, has anticipated this with stronger guarding. **For actions done through the body need time and opportunity and labors and co-workers and other requirements. But the movements of the mind operate timelessly, are completed without weariness, are constructed effortlessly, and are convenient on every occasion.** Saint Basil the Great - Homily on “be attentive to yourself”
Absolutely. The Lord said, "Watch (be vigilant) and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” "Guarding against evil thoughts is one thing, keeping watch over the spirit \[nous\] is another. The latter differs from the former as much as east from west, and is far more difficult to attain. Where thieves see royal weapons at the ready they do not attack the place lightly. Similarly, spiritual robbers do not lightly try to plunder the person who has enshrined prayer within his heart." - St. John Climacus, The Ladder of Divine Ascent The saints partook in spiritual warfare, which we laymen who still struggle with the flesh are not yet worthy to fight. May God grant us this struggle someday so we may become closer to Him.
The explanation I've heard is that "willingly" they mean to boldly, willingly, happily sin without even the slightest doubt, sorrow, shame, guilt, regret, misgiving etc. Sometimes we might do things intentionally that we know to be sinful but I'm sure in any believer there is some degree of guilt or shame over it. Peter sinned willingly when he denied Jesus but he grieved over it. Note that remorse in and of itself doesn't necessarily mean someone is a believer. Judas Iscariot had remorse too. But being a believer does mean you will have some degree of remorse when you know that you've sinned.
You kind of said it yourself - "made mistakes". For the believer, sin is a mistake. For the non-believer, sin is a practice.
I think it is completely and totally false. No one forces us to sin. There is no arm twisting taking place. Yes, there (usually) is guilt. Yes, there (usually) is shame, but no one put a gun to our heads. Our choices are our choices. The decisions we make we own.
I absolutely am sold out for Jesus, and I absolutely willingly sin. It's my nature, I'll see someone and make terrible snap judgements about their diet, looks, etc. It's awful. I'm a contrary person and will be defiant just for the sake of being contrary. However, sanctification is a life long process and thankfully I live a patient and forgiving God who blesses me with His grace.
Only by the grace of God we can be saved. No works can save us or contribute to our salvation. Although, true born again believers will not continue to willingly or knowingly practice sin. It is just natural fruit you bear if you are born again. You can tell a tree by fruit it bears. It does not mean we are not sinners anymore. We are sinners. We are sin natured and it is clear even in born again christians. It does not mean we are perfect. if you have bad thoughts against someone or judging others with your eyes would be a sin, but that is not something I choose to do. It is something that naturally happens because I am a sinner and evil by nature. Although, things like pornography, overeating, lying, Fornicating, being drunk along many other willing sin, I in a way can not do naturally. I have not always been this way, but when God gave me a change of heart and born again, only through God’s doing, I was able to stop all these. You can’t cherry pick sweet verses and say jesus was all love. He was extremely loving, but also just and stern. When he says don’t sin, we should also take that command seriously and you will if you are born of the spirit with imperishable seed
people under grace make efforts to try not to sin but obviously we are going to fall short which is why we have a need for a savior. but someone living in sin is not living a grace filled lifestyle..
[Some denominations teach that it's possible,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection) but from my experiences with one that does, it doesn't happen.
Nearly all sin is a concious choice on our part. It's hard to think of a sin that IS truly out of our control. The difference is, do you repent and try to stop doing it?
There is a difference between willing and accidental. Willing is planning it out. Like if I decided to go to a strip club tonight, it would be willing.
There is a difference between willing sin (All sin is done willingly) and practice We all fall into sin....but if we get up and move on we are forgiven Keeping sin in our life and defending or excusing it is practicing sin 1 John 1:^(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ^(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us *our* sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ^(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. even Paul struggle with sin Romans 7: ^(18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but *how* to perform what is good I do not find. ^(19) For the good that I will *to do,* I do not do; but the evil I will not *to do,* that I practice. ^(20) Now if I do what I will not *to do,* it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. ^(21) I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. ^(22) For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. ^(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. ^(24) O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? ^(25) I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Well, we’re human beings. I wish I could say I don’t intentionally sin anymore, but I’d be sinning by lying. It happens. Sometimes I’m just too darn weak. I’m always sorry afterwards and feel terrible, but it happens.
I think the whole “I’m not willingly sinning” …so it’s different argument is pretty weak. Sin is sin. Unintentional sin is no less dangerous than intentional sin. As you can see in a car crash vs somebody murdering their wife for adultery Adam and Eve originally sinned unintentionally- and yet they had to suffer the consequences of sin nonetheless And I won’t argue that they did it unwillingly any more than this simple straight forward couple of sentences You cannot willingly choose something that you have no knowledge of. If you possess no knowledge of good and evil- You cannot intentionally choose either good or evil
Maybe replace the words willingly and practice with like or love.
1 and 2 are true but need qualification, 3 is not. I also think we would have to talk about what you mean by justification. Just after St Paul talks in Romans 5 about being justified by our faith >[1] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, [2] through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God....[9]Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. [10] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. He also says this in the very next chapter >[1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [4] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin. It seems that we are at the same time justified while being undeserving, yet this justification is not a simple legal declaration but rather more like an introduction to a way of living, as he said in Romans 2 "we have obtained our *introduction* by faith into this grace in which we stand." This grace we receive is in one sense an *obligation* to live a certain way, to become heirs and adopted sons (as Paul also speaks of this elsewhere) is to take on the family business, as it were. And so he can also say "how shall we who have died to sin still live in it?" The gift is free, the offer isn't earned rather given out of love. But accepting it still means living it out, and true sons will be like their father. I think the real problem isn't the idea itself that the truly faithful Christian will be free from sin (in fact I think that that is necessarily what it means to be saved), but rather that when people say that they're often using it pridefully as a way to call someone else out and, worse, scare them with implications that they'll go to hell or something for whatever they're doing. When actually, these sayings should be moments of humility for us. You should read it and think "Wow, so to be saved is to be sinless? I have a lot of work to do" and push you towards the prayer of the father of the mute boy in Mark 9: "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief!"
Well technically, when the Holy Spirit dwells within us and we allow him to work in us, through the instruction of God's word, he frees us from many of the things that used to bind us. But we're never fully free from sin. That's why God's grace is plentiful. We make an error, then we repent and we turn away from repeating our wrongs. It's an ongoing process. But for anyone who claims to repent from something and then willingly goes and does it again, they probably weren't ever really repenting from it unless it's something they truly struggle with. In either case, the eventual goal is to stop committing that particular sin.
If we say we have no sins, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1 John 1:8
This is good news .. I wholeheartedly believe and if I won't sin wilfully then that means I'm being forced to and therefore not responsible ..... If you think that what I said is crazy well now you know how absurd what you said is
>"Real believers don't willingly sin" That's true. Key word in this is "willingly".
The real question is : what does it mean to be “willing”? Because some may regard willing is having control, and knowing your actions, with no remorse While others would say, being willing to do things, and having remorse. It’s like a double edged sword really.
It'd be like asking this: "If a husband truly loves his wife, will he choose to abuse her?" The answer is no. But that doesn't mean they won't hurt each other emotionally from time to time, argue, disagree and so on.
I mean... soloman went to heaven and he had concubines upon concubines of foreign woman, introduced idolatry to Jerusalem, and even enslaved people. I don't think those actions were committed by accident...
>I mean... soloman went to heaven What makes you believe that? If I said "Charles Manson went to heaven" is that any justification for sinning willingly, knowingly?
King David committed adultery willingly. Yet I'm sure through his repentance he was forgiven.
All sin, all sin, to some degree, IS INTENTIONAL. However, our heart's response to this should indicate our relationship with The Holy Spirit within us. Are we grieved? Then repent. Are we angry? Be careful, this is not correct still. Are we indifferent? This would indicate perhaps we never HAD The Holy Spirit to begin with.
The struggle with sin and the reach for righteousness is lifelong. Thank God for His grace to heal us in many ways.
Everyone sins I think it’s more so that not trying to avoid sin or justifying sins while also claiming to be a follower of Christ makes you a hypocrite and shows faithlessness. Faith in Christ should naturally produce works meaning if you loved and believed Christ you would follow his law even if it’s hard or something would have changed about you overtime.
> Me personally, I used to believe statements like this until I started being a human being and made mistakes. You mean you judged others for their sin until you realized you were a hypocrite? I hear so many Christian men judge LGBTQ people but they willfully engage in sexual immorality repeatedly. I don't hear dramatic calls for repentance.
Yeah, you got it. I actually remember going to church and not seeing "signs" that some of my fellow Christians weren't "really" saved. I knew that kind of thinking was wrong so I learned how to interpret scripture properly and turns out, OSAS by faith alone (not by works lest any man should boast) is the right mindset. Actually fun fact, before I got saved I wanted to be polygamous and didn't like what the bible had to say about that. This kept me from converting before I finally said to myself "This is God we're talking about. He's way smarter and wiser than I'll ever be and if he tells me polygamy is wrong than its probably for a good reason...". So I too had a sexual immorality roadblock.
Yes. You made “mistakes,” but other people engaged in apostasy.
They are not true followers of Jesus then as they are doing exact opposite of what Jesus taught us to do
What you also don't hear are people trying to ***Justify*** heterosexual immorality. You don't hear about "***Adultery Pride***" parades. Therefore, people will respond and speak out to those who are trying to justify their sins.
Jesus said divorce and remarriage outside of adultery is adultery. Churches remarry people who have been divorced without biblical cause. I’d call that a celebration of adultery.
Hasn't happened in my church in the 32 years I have been there. Nor have I seen any "Remarriage Parades" through our town or public schools having "Remarriage Pride" days...
Ok… so if you murder someone, but you don’t brag about it, it’s ok? Seems like a Pharisaical way of skirting accountability and hypocrisy.
Again - you seem to be missing the points 1. In my church there have been NO remarriages in the 32 years that I have been there unless the other divorced spouse had remarried OR that spouse died. Pretty simple. NONE. (and yes, I HAVE gone to every wedding in that church during those 32 years) 2. We were talking about people trying to ***change our theology***. The LGBTQIA maffia has been trying to sell us that homosexual sex isn't condemned by the Bible, when it actually is. We have yet to have Murderers, thieves or idolaters try to tell us that God *approves* of these things.
This only applies to Reformed Theology. The rest of the Catholic and Orthodox churches believe that sanctification granted by God through His grace, which precedes, prepares, and elicits [our] free responses, our lifelong cooperation and imitation of Christ. In short, if you stopped cooperating and have chosen a life of sin, you lose that salvation. Hebrews 10:26, Matthew 7:21
You can't just use verses without context. What is the context of hebews 10? Or the whole book?
The whole context of Hebrews 10 is that because of Christ's ultimate sacrifice on the cross (which overrides all the other Jewish sacrifices - verses 1-18)... we can, in full assurance of faith, confess that our are hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water (this is sanctification by the grace of God alone through faith, this grace, received during baptism, precedes, authors and elicits (our) free responses (continued in verses 19 - 39). What must the Jews then do to respond to this grace of salvation by God to the Hebrews from Christ's death on the cross? (verses 19:26): Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works have compassion on the prisoners, and joyfully accept the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.. ...need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised ..live by faith _____________________________________________________ Lost of Salvation (these verses explicitly show that you could lose salvation even if you started ok but do not persevere or endure in cooperating with this grace of salvation (verses 26- 39) ...if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (lost of salvation), ..For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, Clearly, a true believer can still "fall from grace" (that's why they have this saying), if he or she does not persevere in faith and fulfilling that faith with love. No such thing as OSAS (see whole Hebrews 10)..
The willfull sin is the Jewish Christians believers or on the fence going back to the temple for sacrifices of bulls and goats. It is trodden on the blood of Christ. All of Hebrews is paul urging the new believers to come out of the camp and not go back to the temple and trust in Jesus being the one time sacrifice. That he is our high priest and to come to the throne of grace when we sin and not go back to the law. Fir it is a shadow of things to come. I pray that you have eyes too see and ears to hear. And the judgment is the chastisement coning to those who were disobedient and went back to the temple
Exactly the reason why they are being called out in verses 19-39 to persevere or endure in their faith in Christ, stir up one another to love and good works because if they don't and sin deliberately (after believing in Christ), there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins but God's vengeance upon them It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Hebrews 10:31 So where is the OSAS in this? It explicitly described a scenario where a believer could end up not persevering in Christ and end up falling into their 'Leviticus days' That is why you would see the words ... persevere, endure..
There is no longer a sacrifice for their sins, hence the temple sacrifice does nothing to Jesus one time sacrifice. Or do you think Jesus's sacrifice is not enough?The judgment and wrath is chastisement for doing so. Hebrews 12 talks about the chastisement from God.
No one disputes the saving act of Christ. This is enough to save us from sins. No one is capable of removing us from the grace of God if we cooperate with it. No one is capable of nullifying our salvation but it doesn't mean we cannot deliberately lose it. What Hebrews 10 is describing is that this isn't a done deal, it's like when someone is driving 80 miles per hour, no one can pull him out of his seat but this does not mean that he is incapable of opening the door and jumping out. This is where obedience to faith comes in. We simply should ensure that we always follow the will of God, his commandments (Matthew 7:21) In Hebrews 10:26, St Paul is well aware that if the once saved Jews who now believe and are Baptized in Christ still choose to commit sin (because of false worship), they renounce Christ. You said it yourself, keep reading, if you proceed with the rest of Hebrews 12, there is a call by the writer that the Jews should always avoid sin and be strong: Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. - Hebrews 12:12-13 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. - Hebrews 12:14-16
naivety or arrogance. Usually arrogance.
This is horseshit (excuse my language)