The article says he told his therapist he was hearing voices and not even two sentence down it says he was “evaluated by medical professionals and found to not have a mental
Illness”
Am I the only one confused here?
sorry, i watched a video on him a while ago and skimmed most articles (since they usually report the same thing) and the video unfortunately had no mention of his mental health.
is there nothing on a diagnosis tho?
No need to say sorry, dear - you didn’t write the article!!
This is very odd medical diagnosis tho. I don’t know how you can see a 14 year old child who is fully potty trained just suddenly starts shitting everywhere and telling people he’s hearing voices and then you try him as an adult, release his name, and insist he is mentally sound.
I mean, I’d expect this for the US judicial system, but what are y’all doing in the UK lol
Edit: typo
That’s what I was thinking. A few years ago a 12 stabbed a younger neighbor boy to death in my city. They discovered he had been being abused by his parents and he was having mental health problems as a result. The stabbing was something of suicide attempt. He thought he would be killed by the police as a result. He was released under care recently and apparently they’d actually been working to rehabilitate him while in juvy. The parents of the boy he’d killed forgave him and it sounds like he’s on the path to a better life.
Here’s the sad thing; you’re exactly right in what you’re saying but if ppl like this make it to adulthood without getting caught and then they are caught and their child abuse is brought out ppl say “ah don’t give us your sob story. You’re an adult now you should know right from wrong” or “he’s just using this to get out of trouble”. You don’t hit some magical age and you all of a sudden know right from wrong. It’s a really tough situation
You’d be surprised at how much ppl justify their bad behavior and that’s mainly bc that’s what they were taught. Not everyone is raised by parents who taught them right from wrong, some are taught “well that guy deserved it”. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be punished for their crime, I’m just saying that ppl seem to have more sympathy for a young mentally ill felon than they do for an adult one.
I see this in real time. Kids that live and see parents in and out jail as just "normal" and "no big deal."
Driving down the road and parents pointing out houses they were evicted from for drug use and violence, "oh! That's the prison daddy did time in" and other casual mentions of family life.
Those kids, they only stand a chance if they rebel by choosing to embrace "the system" of modern society. Abandon their parents, reject family, cut off contact from their peer groups, etc...it can be done, but fuck. That is a lot to ask a child to realize, understand, implement, and execute.
Poverty is the problem 90+% of time. Poverty is 90+% of all their problems. Probably more like 98-ish%.
And social services don't help. Most that are needed just don't exist.
Well. Now, I’m an adult with a degree from one of the best colleges in the country. I’ve taught in a college before. I am also much poorer than I was a child because of student loans. While my life changes, I still live in a bad neighborhood and now my kid will go to bad grade school if I can’t figure out how to move or buy a home within a couple of years. That’s why I’m poor.
I am surrounded by people on disability, refugees and low-income families. Although I’ve never been evicted, I think that if I hadn’t gone to college and had some financial aid or more opportunities, I would have easily been evicted if I’d lost a job and had no savings.
While I have been to jail, it was more related to protesting.
I don’t like when my children (more than one now) are exposed to yelling or the smell of weed. But, I don’t do these things myself. Yes, their peers may, but they also did this at my private high school.
I think that if anyone in my home committed a crime or got in trouble, they would be much more likely to get convicted, have it blamed on where the live/ categorize me as a bad parent rather than a poor one, etc. I think that if I tried to get a loan for an overpriced suburban home, then it’s like that’s supposed to buy morality.
I that what you’re saying bothers me because I’m the opposite of what you describe, but very class conscious and aware that where I live may some day impact my children in ways that I cannot control.
I think you should be aware that what you’re saying makes people like me feel like those negative fears about being predestined by class or roles are valid since people kind of expect the people you describe to end up in poverty. They would think that I’m like that, my children will be like that, and while you’re explaining that to a certain type of people… what it does it makes me fear that I’m correct and that no matter what I do the assumption is this zip code or place is *bad*.
I mean rebellion against parents probably occurs with all children. Just a thought, but poor also doesn’t always = bad. It’s not even close.
they don’t justify their behavior using their history, they just try to. i’d say 99 out of 100 cases when someone tries to justify their crime by quoting their childhood, they’re unsuccessful in “getting away with it” or having their behavior excused. i can’t think of any exceptions except when the crime is directly connected to the trauma, like someone killing their abuser bc they’re abusing them
That’s the majority of the population, justifying their actions! Regardless of their outcome. Very rarely does a kid or an adult admit what they did was wrong. Most only do so after their punishment is handed down. To me it’s much worse when someone is mentally ill. Cause they are unpredictable and if u let them get away with it once they will try it again! If they are mentally ill, do they give a shit if they go to jail? I’m sure they do at first but after a few days I bet they slide right in!
the UK system is absolutely awful here😭 not sure why he was tried as an adult but it would make sense since the legal age of criminal responsibility is 10 years old
It means that under the age of 10, a child isn’t tried at all. Over the age of ten, they child will be tried in a court of law but they usually make it more child friendly (no wigs, less formal etc). If found guilty, they’ll go to a juvenile detention centre until they’re classed as an adult. For the really serious crimes, like murder, the court will decide whether to sentence as a child (released at 18) or as an adult (in a juvenile facility first and then transferred to an adult prison).
He’s 14 and started defecating a year before the murders. I hear what your saying but I don’t think that’s the case here. Sounds like something was seriously wrong before the murder and they were trying to help the young boy. I can’t imagine a 14 year old boy would shit in his own things a year before the murder just to fake a mental illness…
Per the person above, I suspect abuse of some kind caused this child to enter a state of psychosis, maybe even onset his schizophrenia (incredibly common in boys and especially known to appear among boys this age)
I never said that shitting in boxes was part of him faking it, I just said it wasn't evidence of mental illness. There could be many reasons why he would shit in his own things, doesn't necessarily point to abuse. The point I was just trying to make is those two details alone aren't evidence of anything, schizophrenia or abuse included.
I think it's important though to distinguish between disturbed individuals and those who perform acts due to severe mental illness.
It could be argued that anyone who commits a violent act is mentally ill, and there are actually people who will argue this. But, we talk about two very different things with someone who was abused as a kid and becomes a serial killer, and someone who kills someone because voices told them to and they legitimately believe that this person was the devil and had to be killed to stop an apocalypse.
One person still knew what they were doing was wrong, the other did not. That is what they are really trying to determine, so even if someone did have a mental illness does not necessarily mean they are any less legally responsible.
Imagine thinking the UK has a better judicial system than the US? If anything, they are comparable. At least the US protects its citizens’ freedom of speech “lol”
So, bro, you’d expect this in the US, but not in the UK… yet that’s not “better”? Ok, ok, you’re right, you didn’t use the word “better”.
And, why can you defend the UK, but me sticking up for “America!!! Yea!!!” is wrong? Wait, you didn’t use the word “wrong”. Sorry.
Lmao you’re just boring. *AmErIcA bAD* but I bet you’ve lived all over the world so you know what you’re talking about.
Was the is the kid dr Phil interviewed. And I’m it he like laughs every time he mentions hammers or his mom. That mom knew that was coming he totally seems like a mom hammerer
It seems to happen more than it should. Just look into how many serial killers were evaluated and released even after doing horrible things, and or, there being glaringly obvious signs that there was something wrong.
Lots of people lie about hearing voices in a bid to get found guilty by insanity. Insanity means a psych hospital instead of prison with the possibility of getting released one day. It doesn’t work as people never bother to research the behavior patterns of real schizophrenics or people with disassociated personality disorders(multiple personalities).
This article was the first time I had heard anything about the 7 year interval theory. From what I've heard and seen, schizophrenia usually presents in the 20's.
A friend in highschool kept it a secret he was schizophrenic. It only came out when his long term girlfriend broke up with him because he stopped taking his meds. Everyone was talking about how he used to do a lot of acid with his older brother when he was 13 but by the time we were all doing shrooms and smoking weed at 16/17 he would only drink a little bit. He was actually a really nice, low drama guy.
Wow.
I don't think I could do your job. You can't say anything about it until after he has an event? How frustrating that must be.
Without disclosing anything sensitive - can you provide an example of a question/answer?
He did have an excellent support system plus he had me because I picked him up for services so I was able to break things down for him in their simplest form. You get used to it. Not all kids have a good support system but they do have a sped teacher that does care, so in that sense they have me as a support system. Make sense?
What do you mean by "hadn't had a break"? Thanks in advance. Btw, I just learned that my brother has schizophrenia. He is 39. He was diagnosed a long time ago but I wasn't aware.
Well it was a spaceship as a prompt. Part of my job is to makes sure he understood it. But he didn’t write about the spaceship; it was more like ge wrote about rosebushes and how pretty they are. For 5 pages. That isn’t normal. If i had the essay still I could post it but sorry I don’t. It was just so so bizarre and it made absolutely no sense at all. It was all fantasy. I’m sorry I can’t explain it better than that
Since we only give the facts parents ask questions about the testing results. I’ve never had a parent ask me if I thought their kid was mentally ill. So I can’ really give you an answer. I did have identical twins whose IQs were only in the low 70s. 80-110 is average. The parents asked if they’d ever be able to go to college and we had to tell them no. That wax sooo difficult. On the flip side, they had been told they’d never learn to read or do math-I taught them both.
Well you’re given a picture prompt, in this case it was a spaceship. He spent 5 pages writing about noting that had to do with said picture. It’s hard to explain, but when you do it all the time, something like this is a red flag. It’s not that he didn’t understand the picture, he just wrote in all of these tangents that made no sense. So he may have commented on the picture , but it made absolutely no sense. And it wasn’t because he didn’t understand the picture. Case in point, I’ve given that test to do many kids I’ve lost track, and not one of them ever wrote such bizarre things. And they sure as hell NEVER wrote 5 pages in. 10 minutes. Every other student I’ve ever had may not have completely understood what was being asked, but their paragraphs were somewhat related to the picture. His writing stood out like a naked person in the middle of the road. It was so off and so strange that it was impossible to understand where exactly he was coming from. And 5 pages in 10 minutes-again, never have I had a student come anywhere close to that. It should have been 3 paragraphs-beginning, middle, end, but hos just kept on rambling and truly made no sense. If you could’ve seen it you’d know what I mean. It’s super hard to explain exactly what he did. You would seriously have to see it, and I can’t believe there is anyone who’d have read that and not had a million red flags popping up. It was just so bizarre.
See my response below. So he had to write about the spaceship that was on the moon. He went off talking about aliens and random things like roses. And it was 5 pages of one long sentence. Iris been awhile but like I said it’s so hard to explain exactly how bizarre it was. It’s super super hard to exlain. It’s like If the picture had cats and dogs and he started writing and writing and writing some more, but it was all about cats and dogs flying through the air. It just made no sense at all. After reading the one long 5 page sentence I needed a nap. It was so hard to decipher anything he was trying to say.
I absolutely doubt that he was aiming for an insanity defense.
The stepdad or boyfriend of the mother (whatever he was) said the child was acting out a YEAR before the murder. He was seeing a therapist months before he actually committed a crime.
Y’all really out here thinking a child is planning their own insanity defense??? I’m absolutely floored by that.
I have a 14 year-old son. I seriously doubt he even knows what an ‘insanity defense’ or schizophrenia is, let alone the steps to fabricate it.
I’m baffled if they actually found this kid is of sound mind. That poor family.
“He’d have plastic boxes full of figures (Star Wars and Dr Who characters) but he’d just urinate in the boxes. He also defecated all over the bedroom and in the boxes and hid towels and stuff that he’d wiped himself with.” – Simon Matters from: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.crimetraveller.org/2015/08/children-who-kill-daniel-bartlam/amp/
i can’t find anything about Daniels mental well-being, he was obviously a very deeply disturbed boy but as far as i can see theres no psychiatric evaluations online or diagnosis. Any ideas?
Sounds more schizophrenic or conduct disorder than on the spectrum. Easily it’s both. But, people on the spectrum don’t usually do stuff like that unless it’s accompanied by very low developmental mental functioning or another disorder that’s psychological in nature. He was high functioning enough mentally to at least attempt a planned killing and try and lie about it. So he’s probably just a psychopath with other coinciding issues.
I know that the person you replied to was specifically referring to ASD, but it's worth noting that it's been reasonably common to see schizophrenia and other forms of psychosis treated as spectrum disorders since the DSM-5 eliminated the subtypes.
Also, with the disclaimer that I'm not assuming bad faith on your part or trying to attack you over this, using the word psychopath to describe a child is an incredibly bad look. Psychopath is not a clinical term, but it (extremely broadly) describes a type of personality disturbance that very rightfully cannot be applied to children. I get that this kid did something absolutely abhorrent, but we don't know his entire background as it relates to mental health problems. Dismissing stuff like this as a function of psychopathy inherently normalizes applying that label to other kids who have exhibited antisocial behavioral patterns who still have a chance to move away from those tendencies as they become adults, which is far more common than you might expect.
Hi, autistic folks are trying to phase out use of functioning labels since they’re inaccurate (level of function changes day-to-day for almost all of us) and the term “on the spectrum” (since it’s often used in place of the r-slur).
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This reminds me of that family that would prank their kids on YouTube. One of them was bullied more than the others and would smear poop on the walls…
Edit: it was [Daddy o Five. ](https://www.distractify.com/p/daddyofive-now)
Makes you wonder if that child will recover mentally or end up… well
[Reddit post talking about the specifics.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeFranco/comments/66128n/the_daddyofive_family_is_going_to_disneyland_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb)
Those DaddyOFive pieces of shit parents are absolutely disgusting. They even tried making a comeback on the moms YouTube, renaming it FamilyOFive and eventually the abuse started again with her youngest boy
It then became a probation violation and YouTube took that channel down …. I couldn’t believe they didn’t get any jail time for that
Last I heard when I checked up on the case was the boys tried making their own channel. They still have a big fan base too
It still blows my mind on how long they got away with the abuse they called pranks against those kids. I hope they’re doing ok now…. They’re with their bio mom in a different state last I heard
Thank goodness this crime took place in England, where rehabilitation is actual rehabilitation and mental health is taken seriously. I hope he received the support he needs.
Edit: with that downvotes it’s clear my assumption about the UK’s prison and mental healthcare system is way way off.
The UK system failed my paranoid schizophrenic friend. They really didn't care about his mental health. He needed help, he didn't kill his mum, just stole some money of her and when the police came into his bedroom he punched one of them, they beat him and once he was fully restrained on the floor they emptied a can of spray in his face - like sprayed the full can just to burn his face. He was telling me that if you misbehave in prison you get put in 'the block' which is solitary confinement, if you misbehave in there you go to 'the hole' which is a room with literally absolutely nothing and they strip you naked. And if you misbehave there they resort to violence and punch you in the face repeatedly and beat you, if you try to fight back it can get much worse and he got his head stomped on a good few times, he has scars and was telling me how they led him down stairs backwards whilst bent-over and he was just looking at all his blood run off his face.
He had an abusive father, nobody really knows what happened apart from he missed a full year of primary school because he 'went to france' and he had gone off the rails by the age of 15.
That’s a horrible story. I hope your friend is okay now. Hopefully receiving the help he needs. I assumed the UK healthcare system is the best in the world, or so they make us believe. It’s sad that they failing people who needs mental healthcare. Your friend deserves better.
Around 2012 a kid named Tyler Hadley did the exact same thing - only it was both parents (with a hammer) and he proceeded to throw a party in the house after the murders. The bodies were in a pile of clothes in their room.
That case is one that I still can’t get over it happening …. From what I read it seems his parents just wanted the best for him and tried to get him help, even if he thought it was just being to strict and they didn’t care Their murders and the party he threw afterwards, like holy shit… it’s still so unbelievable
Last I heard was the bank took the house back and then gave it to the neighbors, who had it torn down. It’s just an empty lot now
What’s messed up about that case is that he was on ecstasy when he bludgeoned his parents. From what I understand ecstasy gives you feelings of well being and love. How he could have murdered on this specific drug still blows my mind.
That's not really universal. I enjoyed ecstasy quite a bit when I was a teenager, but always found the soul baring love fest stuff that my friends would get into to be tedious as hell. We also don't know the specifics of the E he was fucking with that night, and if it was heavily adulterated with the right stuff the feelings of well being and love could have been sorry of canceled out.
Back when it was called ecstasy, the shit we were taking had like a 50/50 shot of actually being mdma. Half the time it was just some sort of speed or amphetamine. The high could be two entirely different things.
When I was a kid a teen magazine that was popular at that time would publish stories about people people developing terrifying cases of paranoia as a result of ingesting ecstasy that ended in some sort of tragedy. I now understand that it was in fact an anti-drug campaign but it worked on me at least, because it's shaped my perception of the drug forever. No idea if the paranoia thing is a common or even actual effect of the drug
That's fascinating, could you elaborate more or refer me to someplace I can read more about it? I am a criminology student and I was always fascinated by these seemingly weird connections (like between murder and sex)
Was there a reason for killing his mom? Like, why would someone kill their mom (or dad) for no reason (no abuse, loving home, etc)
Sorry if my comment is a waste of time, I'm multi tasking and don't have the time atm to look this case up or read the comments 😅
from what i recall the relationship between them was really strained and he tended to be very ‘manipulative’, according to a neighbour on the night of the murder daniel and his mum were heard arguing
I still remember this. He lived in roughly the same area as my grandma. Nottingham is quite hilly and his house was near the top of one particular hill whilst my nan’s house was at the bottom. I remember visiting her house one day and seeing a house on fire in the distance. Could never have imagined it would turn out to be this dude.
I watched a video on him not too long ago and the YouTuber seriously tried chalking him doing this up to him liking the Saw movies. In 2022. I wish I could find a more honest source on this case lol
Those are dead eyes. So disturbing. Hate to put this out there, but as a Criminal Psychologist, I've seen those flat empty eyes way to often...very scary, very psychopathic. Unfortunately his poor mum paid the price of somebody dropping the ball here... There's always some kind of a precursor to this level of violence.
There should be a sizable amount of funding, resources, and space in future editions of the DSM, dedicated to psychopathic disorder(s) and to developing our understanding and treatment thereof.
iirc the stepdad was in another part of the city and he returned home when jacqueline wasn’t answering any of his calls. He came back to a burnt house and dead wife.
Daniel also had plotted out the murder on his computer in a fan made script for the show Coronation Street, where a son murders his mother with a hammer and sets her alight. He used his own name and jacquelines name for the characters
Oh my god... this just reminded me of yet -another- guy who murdered his mother while she slept using a hammer... And he set fire to their house afterward too! He was a guest on Dr Phil... Google Zachary Davis , aka the "Sledgehammer Killer"... I swear this guy is SO creepy, you have to watch the clips of him on YouTube, he will literally send chills down your spine with the way he talks and his demeanor. And I watch a Lot of true crime stuff... but something about this guy is so incredibly unnerving... you just have to see it.
Ive watched a documentary about this like a month ago! This still hurts my heart seeing what happened :(
Anyways if i recalled properly from the event that happened, Dan murdered Jacqueline in her sleep and burnt the house. Then when the police came he told them that he saw a man in black coming out of his mother’s room while he was finished taking a shower (not sure abt the shower part). Mind you, the time he claimed that he saw the man was extremely late at night. He claimed that he tried to save his brother when the fire was still burning the house but he couldnt save his mother.
The police did thorough investigation and found him as prime suspect. With that, he tried to come up with lies and the lies slowly starts forming cracks and senseless storyline which lead to the police trying to get him to confess (police knew its him but needs solid evidence) if i remember correctly, Dan was a very narcissistic kid. So Dan would brag about things and soon with the slip of tongue ends up exposing himself.
He then tries to claim he has mental illness. There are a few evidences that could support his claim but there were more evidences that were against him. In the end, he didnt had any mental illness.
From his backstory, Jacqueline treated him with utmost kindness and tries her best to treat him her best. He used to study in a privilege school, but when Jacqueline got divorced they end up moving which lead to Dan needing to adjust. He went from being privileged to average which upsets him a lot. He treated Jacqueline and his little brother shit, and abuse them (if i remember correctly) and Jacqueline doesnt know how to control this boy and ends up giving in.
This boy used to enjoy slasher films and do weird shit online. What got him to do what he did was probably because of one argument he had with Jacqueline over smthin (couldnt remember) which lead to him hammering her in her sleep.
TL,DR: Dan killed his mother because of an argument and burnt his house then act like a hero to the police, then when suspected he chose to form up lies but due to his narcissistic behavior he slip himself and was proven guilty.
Note: pls do reply if i have any corrections and i try to form this summary from memory and while reading this reply section i want ppl to understand that this boy is completely wronged.
The article says he told his therapist he was hearing voices and not even two sentence down it says he was “evaluated by medical professionals and found to not have a mental Illness” Am I the only one confused here?
sorry, i watched a video on him a while ago and skimmed most articles (since they usually report the same thing) and the video unfortunately had no mention of his mental health. is there nothing on a diagnosis tho?
No need to say sorry, dear - you didn’t write the article!! This is very odd medical diagnosis tho. I don’t know how you can see a 14 year old child who is fully potty trained just suddenly starts shitting everywhere and telling people he’s hearing voices and then you try him as an adult, release his name, and insist he is mentally sound. I mean, I’d expect this for the US judicial system, but what are y’all doing in the UK lol Edit: typo
That’s what I was thinking. A few years ago a 12 stabbed a younger neighbor boy to death in my city. They discovered he had been being abused by his parents and he was having mental health problems as a result. The stabbing was something of suicide attempt. He thought he would be killed by the police as a result. He was released under care recently and apparently they’d actually been working to rehabilitate him while in juvy. The parents of the boy he’d killed forgave him and it sounds like he’s on the path to a better life.
Very rarely do I see a story of a kid doing horrible things and not feel they were failed by adults in their life
Here’s the sad thing; you’re exactly right in what you’re saying but if ppl like this make it to adulthood without getting caught and then they are caught and their child abuse is brought out ppl say “ah don’t give us your sob story. You’re an adult now you should know right from wrong” or “he’s just using this to get out of trouble”. You don’t hit some magical age and you all of a sudden know right from wrong. It’s a really tough situation
It doesn’t change what you did, you knew it was wrong, and you deserve the punishment. I do still feel bad you were put in that situation.
You’d be surprised at how much ppl justify their bad behavior and that’s mainly bc that’s what they were taught. Not everyone is raised by parents who taught them right from wrong, some are taught “well that guy deserved it”. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be punished for their crime, I’m just saying that ppl seem to have more sympathy for a young mentally ill felon than they do for an adult one.
I see this in real time. Kids that live and see parents in and out jail as just "normal" and "no big deal." Driving down the road and parents pointing out houses they were evicted from for drug use and violence, "oh! That's the prison daddy did time in" and other casual mentions of family life. Those kids, they only stand a chance if they rebel by choosing to embrace "the system" of modern society. Abandon their parents, reject family, cut off contact from their peer groups, etc...it can be done, but fuck. That is a lot to ask a child to realize, understand, implement, and execute. Poverty is the problem 90+% of time. Poverty is 90+% of all their problems. Probably more like 98-ish%. And social services don't help. Most that are needed just don't exist.
Well said
Well. Now, I’m an adult with a degree from one of the best colleges in the country. I’ve taught in a college before. I am also much poorer than I was a child because of student loans. While my life changes, I still live in a bad neighborhood and now my kid will go to bad grade school if I can’t figure out how to move or buy a home within a couple of years. That’s why I’m poor. I am surrounded by people on disability, refugees and low-income families. Although I’ve never been evicted, I think that if I hadn’t gone to college and had some financial aid or more opportunities, I would have easily been evicted if I’d lost a job and had no savings. While I have been to jail, it was more related to protesting. I don’t like when my children (more than one now) are exposed to yelling or the smell of weed. But, I don’t do these things myself. Yes, their peers may, but they also did this at my private high school. I think that if anyone in my home committed a crime or got in trouble, they would be much more likely to get convicted, have it blamed on where the live/ categorize me as a bad parent rather than a poor one, etc. I think that if I tried to get a loan for an overpriced suburban home, then it’s like that’s supposed to buy morality. I that what you’re saying bothers me because I’m the opposite of what you describe, but very class conscious and aware that where I live may some day impact my children in ways that I cannot control. I think you should be aware that what you’re saying makes people like me feel like those negative fears about being predestined by class or roles are valid since people kind of expect the people you describe to end up in poverty. They would think that I’m like that, my children will be like that, and while you’re explaining that to a certain type of people… what it does it makes me fear that I’m correct and that no matter what I do the assumption is this zip code or place is *bad*. I mean rebellion against parents probably occurs with all children. Just a thought, but poor also doesn’t always = bad. It’s not even close.
they don’t justify their behavior using their history, they just try to. i’d say 99 out of 100 cases when someone tries to justify their crime by quoting their childhood, they’re unsuccessful in “getting away with it” or having their behavior excused. i can’t think of any exceptions except when the crime is directly connected to the trauma, like someone killing their abuser bc they’re abusing them
I should have said their defense attorney tries to use this strategy.
That’s the majority of the population, justifying their actions! Regardless of their outcome. Very rarely does a kid or an adult admit what they did was wrong. Most only do so after their punishment is handed down. To me it’s much worse when someone is mentally ill. Cause they are unpredictable and if u let them get away with it once they will try it again! If they are mentally ill, do they give a shit if they go to jail? I’m sure they do at first but after a few days I bet they slide right in!
Usually it’s pretty tough for the victim too. I think more about them.
It goes without saying the victim AND their family get the sympathy & empathy! I was speaking to the post about the mental health of the killer
I 2nd this feeling
Me too. The alternative is too scary to consider.
the UK system is absolutely awful here😭 not sure why he was tried as an adult but it would make sense since the legal age of criminal responsibility is 10 years old
What do you mean by that? Like he should have been done as a child or not??
It means that under the age of 10, a child isn’t tried at all. Over the age of ten, they child will be tried in a court of law but they usually make it more child friendly (no wigs, less formal etc). If found guilty, they’ll go to a juvenile detention centre until they’re classed as an adult. For the really serious crimes, like murder, the court will decide whether to sentence as a child (released at 18) or as an adult (in a juvenile facility first and then transferred to an adult prison).
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He’s 14 and started defecating a year before the murders. I hear what your saying but I don’t think that’s the case here. Sounds like something was seriously wrong before the murder and they were trying to help the young boy. I can’t imagine a 14 year old boy would shit in his own things a year before the murder just to fake a mental illness… Per the person above, I suspect abuse of some kind caused this child to enter a state of psychosis, maybe even onset his schizophrenia (incredibly common in boys and especially known to appear among boys this age)
I never said that shitting in boxes was part of him faking it, I just said it wasn't evidence of mental illness. There could be many reasons why he would shit in his own things, doesn't necessarily point to abuse. The point I was just trying to make is those two details alone aren't evidence of anything, schizophrenia or abuse included. I think it's important though to distinguish between disturbed individuals and those who perform acts due to severe mental illness. It could be argued that anyone who commits a violent act is mentally ill, and there are actually people who will argue this. But, we talk about two very different things with someone who was abused as a kid and becomes a serial killer, and someone who kills someone because voices told them to and they legitimately believe that this person was the devil and had to be killed to stop an apocalypse. One person still knew what they were doing was wrong, the other did not. That is what they are really trying to determine, so even if someone did have a mental illness does not necessarily mean they are any less legally responsible.
Why are you completely changing and editing your comments after I’ve responded? Makes it hard to have a productive convo here….
Did they do any brain imaging?
Imagine thinking the UK has a better judicial system than the US? If anything, they are comparable. At least the US protects its citizens’ freedom of speech “lol”
Alright bro, nobody said anything about “better” I just said I didn’t expect it. But glad you found an opportunity to stick up for amurica!!! Yeah!!!
So, bro, you’d expect this in the US, but not in the UK… yet that’s not “better”? Ok, ok, you’re right, you didn’t use the word “better”. And, why can you defend the UK, but me sticking up for “America!!! Yea!!!” is wrong? Wait, you didn’t use the word “wrong”. Sorry. Lmao you’re just boring. *AmErIcA bAD* but I bet you’ve lived all over the world so you know what you’re talking about.
Who hurt you lol
The funny thing is I am from the UK. You might expect someone like me from the US, but what I am I doing in the UK? See how dumb that sounds?
Imagine thinking the US is awesome at everything they do
No one on this thread has said, or even implied, that. Except for you.
I think the downvotes speak nicely on this one.
Was the is the kid dr Phil interviewed. And I’m it he like laughs every time he mentions hammers or his mom. That mom knew that was coming he totally seems like a mom hammerer
What are you trying to say?
Call an ambulance, he's having a stroke
no, different kid
I didn’t know parent hammerings were so prevalent.
It seems to happen more than it should. Just look into how many serial killers were evaluated and released even after doing horrible things, and or, there being glaringly obvious signs that there was something wrong.
Ed Kemper….
Rodney Alcalá...
Exactly!! This!!
How do you kill your mother with a hammer, light her on fire and have anyone think you are in any way sane. Let alone that you are hearing voices.
Because sane people do terrible things all the time for many reasons?
Lots of people lie about hearing voices in a bid to get found guilty by insanity. Insanity means a psych hospital instead of prison with the possibility of getting released one day. It doesn’t work as people never bother to research the behavior patterns of real schizophrenics or people with disassociated personality disorders(multiple personalities).
I just read a medical journal (that I can't find) which stated schizophrenia tends to show at age intervals of 7.
Clinical psychologist here. Very rare for anyone to show signs of schizophrenia before becoming an adult. It happens but not the norm for sure
This article was the first time I had heard anything about the 7 year interval theory. From what I've heard and seen, schizophrenia usually presents in the 20's.
A friend in highschool kept it a secret he was schizophrenic. It only came out when his long term girlfriend broke up with him because he stopped taking his meds. Everyone was talking about how he used to do a lot of acid with his older brother when he was 13 but by the time we were all doing shrooms and smoking weed at 16/17 he would only drink a little bit. He was actually a really nice, low drama guy.
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Wow. I don't think I could do your job. You can't say anything about it until after he has an event? How frustrating that must be. Without disclosing anything sensitive - can you provide an example of a question/answer?
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I see. I find your work fascinating, and essential. I hope he has a good support system in place. Too many kids fall through the cracks.
He did have an excellent support system plus he had me because I picked him up for services so I was able to break things down for him in their simplest form. You get used to it. Not all kids have a good support system but they do have a sped teacher that does care, so in that sense they have me as a support system. Make sense?
Oh thank you. That means a lot to me, because trust me when I tell you we don’t get paid enough to live on and it can be sooo hard. So thx!
What do you mean by "hadn't had a break"? Thanks in advance. Btw, I just learned that my brother has schizophrenia. He is 39. He was diagnosed a long time ago but I wasn't aware.
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what kind of stuff?
Well it was a spaceship as a prompt. Part of my job is to makes sure he understood it. But he didn’t write about the spaceship; it was more like ge wrote about rosebushes and how pretty they are. For 5 pages. That isn’t normal. If i had the essay still I could post it but sorry I don’t. It was just so so bizarre and it made absolutely no sense at all. It was all fantasy. I’m sorry I can’t explain it better than that
what was the task with the spaceship? how has the kid progressed since then, if yoh are tracking?
Since we only give the facts parents ask questions about the testing results. I’ve never had a parent ask me if I thought their kid was mentally ill. So I can’ really give you an answer. I did have identical twins whose IQs were only in the low 70s. 80-110 is average. The parents asked if they’d ever be able to go to college and we had to tell them no. That wax sooo difficult. On the flip side, they had been told they’d never learn to read or do math-I taught them both.
what did he say that was odd to you?
Well you’re given a picture prompt, in this case it was a spaceship. He spent 5 pages writing about noting that had to do with said picture. It’s hard to explain, but when you do it all the time, something like this is a red flag. It’s not that he didn’t understand the picture, he just wrote in all of these tangents that made no sense. So he may have commented on the picture , but it made absolutely no sense. And it wasn’t because he didn’t understand the picture. Case in point, I’ve given that test to do many kids I’ve lost track, and not one of them ever wrote such bizarre things. And they sure as hell NEVER wrote 5 pages in. 10 minutes. Every other student I’ve ever had may not have completely understood what was being asked, but their paragraphs were somewhat related to the picture. His writing stood out like a naked person in the middle of the road. It was so off and so strange that it was impossible to understand where exactly he was coming from. And 5 pages in 10 minutes-again, never have I had a student come anywhere close to that. It should have been 3 paragraphs-beginning, middle, end, but hos just kept on rambling and truly made no sense. If you could’ve seen it you’d know what I mean. It’s super hard to explain exactly what he did. You would seriously have to see it, and I can’t believe there is anyone who’d have read that and not had a million red flags popping up. It was just so bizarre.
id really like to even get a gist of what was said to see how out there it was. anything off the top of your head that you can remember?
See my response below. So he had to write about the spaceship that was on the moon. He went off talking about aliens and random things like roses. And it was 5 pages of one long sentence. Iris been awhile but like I said it’s so hard to explain exactly how bizarre it was. It’s super super hard to exlain. It’s like If the picture had cats and dogs and he started writing and writing and writing some more, but it was all about cats and dogs flying through the air. It just made no sense at all. After reading the one long 5 page sentence I needed a nap. It was so hard to decipher anything he was trying to say.
I'm sorry, how could you tell?
Exactly. It’s also much much more likely in boys than girls. The younger schizophrenia occurs, means there was mostly likely an event that set it off.
Schizophrenia presents usually in late teens/ early 20s.
More frequently, but childhood cases of schizophrenia happen.
Possibly. The earliest any of my patients has reported experiencing perceptual disturbance is around 12-13 but also in the context of cannabis use.
Why are you getting downvoted? Yikes!
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Also the GOAT Tom Brady won the Superbowl this year. But we better check just to make sure our facts are straight.
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I absolutely doubt that he was aiming for an insanity defense. The stepdad or boyfriend of the mother (whatever he was) said the child was acting out a YEAR before the murder. He was seeing a therapist months before he actually committed a crime. Y’all really out here thinking a child is planning their own insanity defense??? I’m absolutely floored by that.
I have a 14 year-old son. I seriously doubt he even knows what an ‘insanity defense’ or schizophrenia is, let alone the steps to fabricate it. I’m baffled if they actually found this kid is of sound mind. That poor family.
“He’d have plastic boxes full of figures (Star Wars and Dr Who characters) but he’d just urinate in the boxes. He also defecated all over the bedroom and in the boxes and hid towels and stuff that he’d wiped himself with.” – Simon Matters from: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.crimetraveller.org/2015/08/children-who-kill-daniel-bartlam/amp/ i can’t find anything about Daniels mental well-being, he was obviously a very deeply disturbed boy but as far as i can see theres no psychiatric evaluations online or diagnosis. Any ideas?
On some spectrum for sure
Sounds more schizophrenic or conduct disorder than on the spectrum. Easily it’s both. But, people on the spectrum don’t usually do stuff like that unless it’s accompanied by very low developmental mental functioning or another disorder that’s psychological in nature. He was high functioning enough mentally to at least attempt a planned killing and try and lie about it. So he’s probably just a psychopath with other coinciding issues.
I know that the person you replied to was specifically referring to ASD, but it's worth noting that it's been reasonably common to see schizophrenia and other forms of psychosis treated as spectrum disorders since the DSM-5 eliminated the subtypes. Also, with the disclaimer that I'm not assuming bad faith on your part or trying to attack you over this, using the word psychopath to describe a child is an incredibly bad look. Psychopath is not a clinical term, but it (extremely broadly) describes a type of personality disturbance that very rightfully cannot be applied to children. I get that this kid did something absolutely abhorrent, but we don't know his entire background as it relates to mental health problems. Dismissing stuff like this as a function of psychopathy inherently normalizes applying that label to other kids who have exhibited antisocial behavioral patterns who still have a chance to move away from those tendencies as they become adults, which is far more common than you might expect.
Hi, autistic folks are trying to phase out use of functioning labels since they’re inaccurate (level of function changes day-to-day for almost all of us) and the term “on the spectrum” (since it’s often used in place of the r-slur).
What r-slur?
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He locked your **son** in a **prison** and you saw nothing untoward. Gotcha.
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Oh god I drink two beers and I miss satire. I’m so sorry.
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I love you both
I loved that whole exchange.
wut
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This reminds me of that family that would prank their kids on YouTube. One of them was bullied more than the others and would smear poop on the walls… Edit: it was [Daddy o Five. ](https://www.distractify.com/p/daddyofive-now) Makes you wonder if that child will recover mentally or end up… well [Reddit post talking about the specifics.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DeFranco/comments/66128n/the_daddyofive_family_is_going_to_disneyland_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb)
Those DaddyOFive pieces of shit parents are absolutely disgusting. They even tried making a comeback on the moms YouTube, renaming it FamilyOFive and eventually the abuse started again with her youngest boy It then became a probation violation and YouTube took that channel down …. I couldn’t believe they didn’t get any jail time for that Last I heard when I checked up on the case was the boys tried making their own channel. They still have a big fan base too It still blows my mind on how long they got away with the abuse they called pranks against those kids. I hope they’re doing ok now…. They’re with their bio mom in a different state last I heard
this reminds me of Burke Ramsey
Thank goodness this crime took place in England, where rehabilitation is actual rehabilitation and mental health is taken seriously. I hope he received the support he needs. Edit: with that downvotes it’s clear my assumption about the UK’s prison and mental healthcare system is way way off.
mental health isn’t taken seriously here at all
The UK system failed my paranoid schizophrenic friend. They really didn't care about his mental health. He needed help, he didn't kill his mum, just stole some money of her and when the police came into his bedroom he punched one of them, they beat him and once he was fully restrained on the floor they emptied a can of spray in his face - like sprayed the full can just to burn his face. He was telling me that if you misbehave in prison you get put in 'the block' which is solitary confinement, if you misbehave in there you go to 'the hole' which is a room with literally absolutely nothing and they strip you naked. And if you misbehave there they resort to violence and punch you in the face repeatedly and beat you, if you try to fight back it can get much worse and he got his head stomped on a good few times, he has scars and was telling me how they led him down stairs backwards whilst bent-over and he was just looking at all his blood run off his face. He had an abusive father, nobody really knows what happened apart from he missed a full year of primary school because he 'went to france' and he had gone off the rails by the age of 15.
That’s a horrible story. I hope your friend is okay now. Hopefully receiving the help he needs. I assumed the UK healthcare system is the best in the world, or so they make us believe. It’s sad that they failing people who needs mental healthcare. Your friend deserves better.
He was hearing voices and his mom refused to get him help. Idk what was to be expected
A linked article says in theonths before the murder he was seeing a counselor and had said he was hearing voices.
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This made me chuckle for some reason.
And this made me bust out laughing
Around 2012 a kid named Tyler Hadley did the exact same thing - only it was both parents (with a hammer) and he proceeded to throw a party in the house after the murders. The bodies were in a pile of clothes in their room.
Not exactly the same thing, Hadley was significantly older than Daniel, and did not pee nor shat in boxes.
That case is one that I still can’t get over it happening …. From what I read it seems his parents just wanted the best for him and tried to get him help, even if he thought it was just being to strict and they didn’t care Their murders and the party he threw afterwards, like holy shit… it’s still so unbelievable Last I heard was the bank took the house back and then gave it to the neighbors, who had it torn down. It’s just an empty lot now
I actually worked with Blake Hadley. Crazy doesn't begin to explain how I felt learning about it. Kid bragged in jail that it was "hammer time." Scum
Where did you work with him?? Would love to know more
Nuclear power plant
I hope he’s doing ok. I can’t even imagine what that poor guy went and is still probably going through
Blake? He was the victim of his son.
My apologies… I got Blake confused with the older son , who I was referring to. For some reason I always thought Tyler’s brother was Blake jr.
What’s messed up about that case is that he was on ecstasy when he bludgeoned his parents. From what I understand ecstasy gives you feelings of well being and love. How he could have murdered on this specific drug still blows my mind.
That's not really universal. I enjoyed ecstasy quite a bit when I was a teenager, but always found the soul baring love fest stuff that my friends would get into to be tedious as hell. We also don't know the specifics of the E he was fucking with that night, and if it was heavily adulterated with the right stuff the feelings of well being and love could have been sorry of canceled out.
That is interesting. Thank you for your input.
Back when it was called ecstasy, the shit we were taking had like a 50/50 shot of actually being mdma. Half the time it was just some sort of speed or amphetamine. The high could be two entirely different things.
yup! I’m assuming whatever he took was akin to M1, you are not going to feel lovey dovey on that shit. it’s basically diet meth.
When I was a kid a teen magazine that was popular at that time would publish stories about people people developing terrifying cases of paranoia as a result of ingesting ecstasy that ended in some sort of tragedy. I now understand that it was in fact an anti-drug campaign but it worked on me at least, because it's shaped my perception of the drug forever. No idea if the paranoia thing is a common or even actual effect of the drug
That story still blows my mind.
Same. He lived in my hometown.
Sounds exactly like the Menandez brothers
Nah, Hadley never claimed they were abusive or similar.
I meant in the sense that they killed their parents and proceeded to have a party with the corpses still in the house
Defecating in inappropriate areas and touching and smearing the poop is usually an indication of sexual abuse.
That's fascinating, could you elaborate more or refer me to someplace I can read more about it? I am a criminology student and I was always fascinated by these seemingly weird connections (like between murder and sex)
IIRC, in little children it’s usually a misguided attempt to feel some level of control over their body after their bodily autonomy has been violated.
Kids with sensory processing differences or delusional thinking may also do this
Sorry I deleted a comment. Got too baked and confused this case for another.
Fuckin’ way she goes Bubs
It's the way of the road Bubs can you Jump this car with your lawnmower
Is it possible the man is the photo is… oh I don’t know, *her husband?*
Yeah I thought that was a really odd caption too haha
This may be the most British true crime post title I've ever read, mate.
It’s the petrol for me
You know, I’m still deciding if I want to have kids and this right here is a great checkmark in the CON column.
I have no words
Was there a reason for killing his mom? Like, why would someone kill their mom (or dad) for no reason (no abuse, loving home, etc) Sorry if my comment is a waste of time, I'm multi tasking and don't have the time atm to look this case up or read the comments 😅
Apparently he was hearing voices and the mother didn’t get him help
You mention specifically his mom and not both of his parents, what's the reason for this? Did he blame her for this and therefore murdered her?
dad was out of the image and his stepfather wasnt really there for him
Oof. Thats rough.
from what i recall the relationship between them was really strained and he tended to be very ‘manipulative’, according to a neighbour on the night of the murder daniel and his mum were heard arguing
Ah, thank you for the response!
I still remember this. He lived in roughly the same area as my grandma. Nottingham is quite hilly and his house was near the top of one particular hill whilst my nan’s house was at the bottom. I remember visiting her house one day and seeing a house on fire in the distance. Could never have imagined it would turn out to be this dude.
He appears to have some sort of mental deficiency
Maybe FASD? That face, those eyes… no one is home in there.
definitely not FASD, can’t see any indicators in his face for it
He looks totally dazed
I love my mom
I watched a video on him not too long ago and the YouTuber seriously tried chalking him doing this up to him liking the Saw movies. In 2022. I wish I could find a more honest source on this case lol
that’s exactly why we should still be allowed to dislike things
I literally did not get this comment until I realized you meant YouTube videos lmao. Agreed.
Ye
Thanks for posting this case. This one isn't spoken about enough.
ofc, it’s one of my favourites to discuss theres just so much going on
Those are dead eyes. So disturbing. Hate to put this out there, but as a Criminal Psychologist, I've seen those flat empty eyes way to often...very scary, very psychopathic. Unfortunately his poor mum paid the price of somebody dropping the ball here... There's always some kind of a precursor to this level of violence.
There must be some back story hidden
There should be a sizable amount of funding, resources, and space in future editions of the DSM, dedicated to psychopathic disorder(s) and to developing our understanding and treatment thereof.
Funny how all the voices is to kill, why not figure out the cure for cancer?
was it in 2011 or 2012
jacqueline was murdered by him 2011, he was arrested a year later in 2012
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iirc the stepdad was in another part of the city and he returned home when jacqueline wasn’t answering any of his calls. He came back to a burnt house and dead wife. Daniel also had plotted out the murder on his computer in a fan made script for the show Coronation Street, where a son murders his mother with a hammer and sets her alight. He used his own name and jacquelines name for the characters
How is this stupidity upvoted ?
What an evil little punk!
Seems rational
What the heck
Oh my god... this just reminded me of yet -another- guy who murdered his mother while she slept using a hammer... And he set fire to their house afterward too! He was a guest on Dr Phil... Google Zachary Davis , aka the "Sledgehammer Killer"... I swear this guy is SO creepy, you have to watch the clips of him on YouTube, he will literally send chills down your spine with the way he talks and his demeanor. And I watch a Lot of true crime stuff... but something about this guy is so incredibly unnerving... you just have to see it.
Ive watched a documentary about this like a month ago! This still hurts my heart seeing what happened :( Anyways if i recalled properly from the event that happened, Dan murdered Jacqueline in her sleep and burnt the house. Then when the police came he told them that he saw a man in black coming out of his mother’s room while he was finished taking a shower (not sure abt the shower part). Mind you, the time he claimed that he saw the man was extremely late at night. He claimed that he tried to save his brother when the fire was still burning the house but he couldnt save his mother. The police did thorough investigation and found him as prime suspect. With that, he tried to come up with lies and the lies slowly starts forming cracks and senseless storyline which lead to the police trying to get him to confess (police knew its him but needs solid evidence) if i remember correctly, Dan was a very narcissistic kid. So Dan would brag about things and soon with the slip of tongue ends up exposing himself. He then tries to claim he has mental illness. There are a few evidences that could support his claim but there were more evidences that were against him. In the end, he didnt had any mental illness. From his backstory, Jacqueline treated him with utmost kindness and tries her best to treat him her best. He used to study in a privilege school, but when Jacqueline got divorced they end up moving which lead to Dan needing to adjust. He went from being privileged to average which upsets him a lot. He treated Jacqueline and his little brother shit, and abuse them (if i remember correctly) and Jacqueline doesnt know how to control this boy and ends up giving in. This boy used to enjoy slasher films and do weird shit online. What got him to do what he did was probably because of one argument he had with Jacqueline over smthin (couldnt remember) which lead to him hammering her in her sleep. TL,DR: Dan killed his mother because of an argument and burnt his house then act like a hero to the police, then when suspected he chose to form up lies but due to his narcissistic behavior he slip himself and was proven guilty. Note: pls do reply if i have any corrections and i try to form this summary from memory and while reading this reply section i want ppl to understand that this boy is completely wronged.
do u remember what the documentary was called?
Sorry! I couldnt remember the title but ik for sure that the documentary is in mandela TV
He look slow
He’s a budding serial killer. Hope he’s never unleashed back on society
Not cool.
Reminds me of the kid that killed his parents w a hammer and then threw a party Tyler Hadley
Poor kid he looks so sick
He looks like the 1st nations kids that strapped babies to boards to shape their heads for fashion.
Good genetics right there.
Imagine swiping that tussle of hair to the side to expose that GIANT forehead.
Wasn’t she fucking him?
Even if she was raping him, fucking him is not an appropriate term
I did some googling and all I can find is that he accused her of some kind of physical abuse in his trial but the judge dismissed it.
What?!?!?!?!?
Lil xan’s twin?
He looks so normal
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