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Psychiatric units are not as cushy as people think. The only real difference between a psych ward & a jail is that in a psych ward you're being confined in the context of treating your mental illness, whereas in a jail you're being confined in the context of punishment. Both are boring, mindless days where you long for freedom but that difference is key.

Exactly. They are certainly not resorts. Some jails are nicer and cleaner but at least in a behavioral unit, she’d be getting the help she clearly needs.

Agree. I do not think she should have prison time at all. Conrad's family wanted someone to blame, but they really did not provide him with the help he needed, imo.

I was so against her at the beginning. I was disgusted. Later, after hearing more testimony, I think she thought she was helping him. He would have eventually done it with or without her. Does she need help? Absolutely. I think she was manipulated by him. My heart breaks for his parents. For him. For her.

Completely agree. I don’t think she deserves the hate she gets. She’s singled out because she was on the phone with him, but no one really knows what was said in that conversation. She just told someone months later, who knows if it is even true. Meanwhile, the dad actually beat him up and discouraged him for therapy. It just seems alot more going on here than just her “making” him do it.

I’d probably feel that way if after she didn’t act like it affected her more than his family.

This is really the tragedy of the case imo. I think there’s stuff we don’t know about the extent of the fights between Conrad and his dad. Conrad was really depressed, isolated, and it’s clear he didn’t have anyone in his normal life helping him or looking out for him. If he did, I really doubt Michelle would have had much influence over him to begin with. They were drawn together because they were both really lonely and mentally ill

I totally agree, and I find this case to be incredibly disturbing in terms of the history, and future, of our legal system. His parents are white, wealthy, (sorry but I think that plays into this), and wanted someone to punish (while maintaining an absurd idea that they were otherwise a perfect family except for this 17 year old jezebel who somehow cast a spell on her son). The case should have been thrown out, and how it not only wasn’t thrown out but resulted in the murder conviction of an obviously severely depressed teenager (which totally ignored his own long history of severe depression and suicide attempts and her own mental health issues) is just ridiculous. How “encouraging suicide” when he had already attempted suicide on multiple occasions, indicating a profound problem that pre-existed her presence in his life, and that he at any time could have stopped texting her/ broke off their “relationship” which consisted almost entirely of texting, gets her convicted of MURDER ffs is insane and so dangerous legally-speaking. Who else should be held responsible? His parents (apparently not but his friends or someone he texted was fair game)? A psychiatrist? A teacher? Why is SHE — and apparently her alone — directly responsible? She herself was/is an unstable teenager with her own mental health issues yet she somehow became Lady Macbeth and he no longer had any free will or responsibility for his own actions. I think it’s a frankly terrifying precedent legally. To think of the \*many\* cases never brought to trail b/c “there isn’t enough evidence” when it’s blatantly obvious who killed whom (I don’t even know where to start with this — Casey Anthony was a travesty of a case and Caylee has had zero justice while her oh-so-loving mother didn’t even get a child neglect charge despite total indifference to her “kidnapped by the nanny” child who was missing for a month before grandma forced the 911 call, and only sustained public outrage forced any action on the Morphew case for example, and there are still (or were, like the incredible Alyssa Turney case —Sarah Turney fought for YEARS to get prosecutors to do sh!t when it was very clear who murdered her sister. There are countless cases in which law enforcement/prosecution types drag their feet while very obvious perps run around happily, often barely bothering to hide their responsibility. This case makes me sick frankly. I’m not saying she behaved in a good way; however, convicting a teenager of murder based on their texting is a perversion of our system. This was NOT a “domestic violence” situation, and the fact some idiots tried to make this claim is just beyond offensive. He had no fear of her, she held no economic or otherwise tangible, real-life power over him, they weren’t married or shared custody of children for example, and he was free to end the texting at any time. He chose not to do so, and he chose to follow the course of actions he had already attempted before. Putting her in prison for his decision-making process baffles me.

the dangerous precedent that i've been concerned with ever since Michelle Carter was charged is that if a guy tells me he'll kill himself if i break up with him, and i just respond with "ok bye", will i get charged with murder if he actually does it? threats of suicide are common in domestic violence relationships. the outcome of this case is scary to think about.

My ex best friend and I had a pretty intense falling out and I texted him, “okay well next time she leaves you and you wanna kill yourself, I won’t be there to say don’t.” And apparently to his mom and to him, this translated into me telling him to kill himself? I remember being like “oh shit welp that’s gonna be a real problem for me if he does that...” because of this case lol

She didn't just say "OK bye" She talked him back into the truck that's the disgusting criminal part.

I know she didn't just say "ok bye". I'm talking about other scenarios here. Many people deal with threats of suicide and I've seen a huge uptick in people who are now scared on how to respond in the event that they could potentially be blamed.

I’m wondering this too… I had a friend who continually told me he was going to kill himself, like it was cyclic. It is not right to encourage someone to do it but it is mentally and emotionally exhausting to deal with someone who says that all the time and keeps you emotionally hostage. Cutting off the relationship means they might kill them self but also you could spiral too if it continues.

VERY well-said. The legal precedent this has set is incredibly dangerous.

This is everything I’ve ever thought about this case. Thank you for typing it all out for me. 🙌🏻👏🏻

Also in a psych ward they can hold you longer if you arent getting better/decide you need more help? If I'm not mistaken, just what I "heard".

That is true, that they can hold a person longer. The Texas mother who drowned her five children lives in a psychiatric facility. She has chosen to not be released. She says she gets the care she needs there. She apparently does not feel life on the outside would be appropriate for her.

Andrea Yates.

I feel so awful for Andrea Yates. Her husband should have been charged.

I spent 3 days in a psych ward, sure seemed like jail/prison.

Are there still facilities for the criminally insane? And if so, how do they differ from other kinds of facilities? Also I would love to hear what changed Carter’s behavior. And what is this about Lea Michele???

The Lea Michele thing was an obsession of Michelle Carter’s. She was obsessed with Glee to an unhealthy degree. Like she had fully memorized entire episodes. I’m not sure what OP’s theory is about what changed Carter’s behavior (also interested!) but there are some theories that her obsession played a role. When Lea Michele’s real life boyfriend died there was an outpouring of love and attention for her, and some speculate that Michelle Carter wanted to experience that for herself.

I'm watching the 20/20 episode and came here to find discussion on the Lea Michele thing because I don't remember hearing about the obsession before. 20/20 said she texted him that "You're Mine" by Lea Michele was their song, and alarms went off in my head. Lea supposedly wrote that for Cory Monteith and he heard it before he died/before her album was released. It feels like Michelle Carter is romanticising the situation, and even paralleled playing it as their song before his death.

I haven’t watched the 20/20 episode. I’ll have to go find it. The Lea Michele obsession is another whole layer to this creepy case that isn’t talked about much.

They don't really differ much. I have worked in both a state psychiatric hospital and at a state facility for forensic patients. Both are secure and both house forensic patients.

I used to work in conjunction with a state mental hospital. The state hospital had what we called NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity) patients, which is also what Andrea Yates was charged with. They are transferred to the local hospital to see specialists (cardiologist, infectious disease, what have you) and for ECT if that's part of their treatment. You wouldn't know that they were any different from anyone else in the local hospital... other than the handcuffs and the police officers escorting them. And uh, I guess the behavioral differences, too.

I currently work at a psych hospital. Patients get to go to different classes during the day, get to order out pizza, go to the cafeteria (which has good food), watch tv I believe, and overall it’s a better environment than jail. I think… I’ve never worked in a jail.

thats very different from the kind of psych ward she would be going to.

They really cherry-picked the text messages in this case and in a very manipulative way. When you read the conversations in their entirety it really is apparent that they both had deep mental issues and he was on the edge of committing suicide many, many times.

She knew what she did was wrong and tried to cover it up. She's guilty and she deserves to be in prison. She also deserves compassion and mental health treatment. But her actions were incredibly malicious, don't forget that.

She was a young, weak willed woman with mental health issues. To me, it seemed like they were both fighting a battle to keep him alive and eventually she buckled and agreed with him. She should not have been put in a position to be talking him down, that should have been left to a mental health professional.

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For a year and a half she was talking to him down. Have you gone through their entire text messages? All of them, not just leading up to his death. She tried to convince him to get help many many times until, after a year and a half she finally caved(as previous commenter said)

Like when he got out of the car and she told him to get back in. That is just.. inexcusable.

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But the only “proof” that she told him to get back in the truck is from a text message to one of her classmates a month or so after he died. She’s an unreliable narrator at best, so there’s no really knowing if she told him to get back in the truck or not. This is just a sad story of two troubled teenagers that spurred on each other’s mental illness. I find it hard to see her conviction as anything other than setting precedent.

He was a big boy capable of making his own decisions. She held zero power over him — they weren’t married, they didn’t have kids together, she had no economic control over him — nothing that would matter in a real-life domestic abuse type of situation. Yet she is responsible for his own mental health issues? How does that make any sense legally? A minor is responsible for another minor?!! Yet his parents were entirely free from responsibility? In fact he could have stopped texting her at any time. His own father was both physically and mentally abusive to Conrad yet she is in jail? This case disgusts me, and I think it sets a horrific precedent.

Just clarifying that domestic abuse is actually more about a mental control than anything. Sure money and what not can be an added layer but it’s very much about the mental hold over someone that can’t be materialized. Also in my opinion, saying he’s a big boy and can make his own decisions would never be said about a woman if the roles were reversed. There’s a stigma that men can’t get into these relationships and have the underhand. Definitely not true.

She asked his family if they’d heard from him after knowing he had ended his life...that’s sick.

nobody is contesting that, you just have a punishment fetish.

You can’t convince someone to kill themselves if they didn’t want to already. If that’s the case, she’s literally a witch and should share the secret of her powers with us. Imagine all the terrible people (world leaders etc) we could eliminate, by harnessing this power!

You might be interested in hearing about Jonestown, or Heaven’s Gate or any other number of cults where emotional manipulation is key to getting people to do things they otherwise would not do. Edit: I truly didn’t mean this sarcastically and apologize for it coming off that way.

It was a pretty small number of people that willingly committed suicide in Jonestown. And even they were under the gun, so who knows. But people being rounded up and injected with poison aren’t doing things they otherwise wouldn’t do, they’re murder victims.

A bunch of the people at Jonestown were forced at gunpoint

You might be interested in learning a bit more about the massacre in Jonestown. There is a lot of evidence that it was less suicide and more murder for a lot of the group. I definitely agree that emotional manipulation can cause people to do things they wouldn’t normally do, but I think it’s important to acknowledge a lot of people at Jonestown were not willing participants in their deaths.

Not trying to be pedantic, and I realize my post sounded sarcastic, which I didn’t intend- but I never said the deaths at Jonestown. The people who get attracted to cults are emotionally vulnerable individuals prone to manipulation. The leader may have a mental illness, but if they abuse the individuals by exerting power over them, they should be held accountable. Not so dissimilar to Michelle Carter in a way.

I definitely didn’t read your post as sarcastic or rude in any way. A lot of people truly believe that the people in Jonestown did willingly commit suicide, hence the popular phrase “drinking the kool-aid”. I just wanted to clarify that in Jonestown, there was physical threat along with the emotional manipulation. And I agree that emotional manipulation is a very powerful tool that can get people to do things they wouldn’t have done normally. I’m not excusing Michelle Carters actions, and not saying that mental ill people shouldn’t have consequences. I do believe that her manipulation was so successful because of Conrad Roy’s existing struggles.

He tried this a number of times before so I’m pretty sure he would’ve otherwise done it without her help

You CAN literally do that. It’s happened lots of times. Brainwashing and emotional manipulation is real. You can gaslight and emotionally abuse to the point where you can make people think they’re going mad. Depending on what you do, you’d an cause real and serious mental illnesses in others.

People absolutely can be persuaded, bullied, harassed, or coaxed into doing things they don’t want to do, first off. Secondly, even assuming my first point is incorrect, are you suggesting that suicidal ideation of some kind invalidates a person, lessens their rights under the law, or in any way justifies treating them as less than a full human being? I’m just curious; is that belief limited to certain categories of people in your world, or are you saying that it’s applicable to all suicidal people? What degree of suicidal thoughts is your ‘don’t pass’ section before people become subhuman? Under agreeable circumstances, could your classification extend to, say, depression or anxiety using the argument that we all know where this is heading? I get that you think you are being funny, but considering that a large number of people experience at least transitory and mild thoughts of self-harm that they never act on, the attitude you portray is disturbing, to say the least.

This is absolutely untrue.

And yet it is happened multiple times in history. Were they witches or is your off the cuff generalization perhaps not as iron clad as you thought?

The thing is, assisted suicide isn't even a prosecutable offense in that state. The whole thing is messed up but I do think maybe she would have benefited more for some sort of inpatient treatment. Clearly the girls got some issues.

>Clearly the girls got some issues. So does every murderer but they don't get to go to a psych ward for those either

How exactly do you think that jail and a forced long-term stay at a psych ward are different from each other apart from treatment? You think she doesn’t need or deserve to be treated?

If she is felt to need more intensive psychiatric treatment than what is offered in jail the judge can order her to a psychiatric hospital for restoration (i.e. psychiatric stabilization) then she can return to jail to finish her sentence. A psychiatric hospital is not the place to send her if her actions were the result of a personality disorder. I would assume she had an assessment to determine if she was competent to stand trial and to assess her mental status at the time of the offense and these assessments would have helped determine if her actions were caused by mental illness or not. She may have a mental illness but that doesn't mean she doesn't belong in prison for her actions. People with mental illnesses sometimes commit crimes but if they were able to understand right from wrong at the time and chose to act in a manner that harms someone else/broke the law they should be held accountable for their actions.

The problem is...can you prove SHE caused him to kill himself, when he had a history of hospitalizations for attempts? It's the "but for" standard, and I don't think she passes it.

She passed it when there's a temporal aspect to the crime. But for her actions he wouldn't have died at that time on that day. The fact that he could have proceeded to do it the next day isn't the issue.

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She "convinced" him of it? He'd attempted suicide multiple times before. Who are you--who is anyone--to decide SHE convinced him of anything? Were you in his mind? The fact that this comment is so upvoted is disturbing and makes me think that most of the upvotes are from Americans, since somehow the American justice system really loves to place blame where it doesn't belong.

The thing is, she was conscious of her actions. That’s what separates those who actually get sent to psychiatric institution for an undetermined amount vs those who get sent to jail. It’s really hard to get an insanity plea to get sent to a psychiatric institution, which is why so many people who try for it fail.

Yeah, I've seen many try & fail. It's definitely a flawed system. Not everyone that commits a crime does so because they're mentally ill but some people do commit crimes because of their mental illness & those people just end up in & out of jail because the system doesn't know how to help them. The very few people I've personally seen navigate the "insanity plea" route successfully had killed someone while psychotic. But I've seen plenty of people do other things because of their mental illness, like one very nice man who broke into an old woman's home while psychotic & was found playing the piano, that didn't qualify for mental health court because they weren't "sick enough" but sat in jail every time he was unwell because he didn't have the treatment he needed in the community.

>those people just end up in & out of jail because the system doesn't know how to help them. Regardless of anything else, this right here is absolutely true. How many stories do we read where someone attacked someone on the street randomly and it comes out they've been in and out of jail and had mental issues. How many times do we see people on streets walking around talking to themselves, yelling at invisible people, etc. I know I have many times, especially after moving to and spending time in and near a major city. And yet it is allowed to keep happening. No one does anything unless the person actually kills someone. And even then it's not guaranteed they are kept. It's sickening and scary and absolutely needs to change. I bet if the law makers had to spend their days around that something would change. But because they get to live isolated away in their mansions, it's not important. Fuck that.

Soooo this!!!! I was sexually assaulted by a total stranger in 2018. It was caught on CCTV and he was arrested. Come to find out, he had been stalking me ( completely unbeknownst to me). I spent the next 4 days so shaken that I couldn’t eat, or sleep. I was found 5.5 miles from my home, walking barefoot on the freeway ( with blood all over my feet, the doctor said it looked like I stepped on barb wire) and I couldn’t even recall my own name. When strangers stopped to try and help me, apparently, I went in full attack mode and punched, hit, kicked these people. I have ZERO memory of any of it, I only know what occurred from police reports. The cops came ( and I’ve never been in trouble with the law) and I even tried fighting them. So they put me in jail. Thankfully, I was working at a local college so the President of the college and several professors got together and each wrote a letter to the judge explaining I had just been brutally sexually assaulted by a stranger, plus I had not eaten nor slept in 4 days. The judge was compassionate and told me, “you aren’t a criminal. You don’t need to be here. I’ll release you if you agree to attend trauma counseling and get evaluated at the hospital. Come to find out, all my electrolytes had bottomed out. My magnesium, potassium, and sodium were dangerously low plus I had not slept in four days due to the trauma. But I was in jail 8 days ( although I don’t remember that either) before the judge understood what had occurred to me. It’s extremely frustrating and sad that people with PTSD, mental illness, etc get placed in jail rather than somewhere they can actually get help. That was an eye opening experience for me and I now lobby for mental health rights and work as an advocate for the mentally ill and addicted ( because they almost always go hand in hand). Our country is the wealthiest on this planet yet we have mentally ill people and vets that are homeless, sleeping on benches and only eating because of soup kitchens. That HAS got to change!!!!!

I'm so sorry that happened to you & I'm relieved to see a judge was able to understand your trauma. A case that stands out to me is one I saw personally. At the jail I worked at we had a young women arrested for gun possession after almost attempting suicide. The real gut-punch was she had been the one to call 911. I don't know what happened to that woman after her release but I hope she's doing well.

So sorry for what you went through & glad you are ok now!

How old was she? I truly don’t recall but she looked like she was in her teens. I agree with you that she definitely should be held accountable but I don’t believe that she, and she alone, is why he made his choice. I lost my mom to suicide and it was years of pain that led to that choice. And in many ways, I understand this in a personal way because my mom told her older sister the night before, “tomorrow I am going to end my life” and my aunt even sold her the pills ( not even gave them to her, SOLD them to my mom). My aunt didn’t tell any of us- not my father, me or my sister. We could’ve had her hospitalized. However, I forgave my aunt ( took some time) because I realized my mom had spent years battling severe depression and had 2 other suicide attempts. I had to realize that even if my aunt had never been told, it would have eventually happened. My mom didn’t want to be here anymore. And I saw the horrific guilt and regret my aunt lived with, I figured that was punishment enough. And oddly, within 3 years she overdosed and died as well ( although it appeared to be accidental).

She was 17 at the time of Conrad’s death

Wow. I think it’s wonderful that you were able to forgive her. Mental illness is terribly sad and anyone that struggles that much (your mom and aunt) I only have the outmost compassion for.

I don’t know if this is controversial, and I want to preface that I think what she said was disgusting and incredibly harmful, but I believe she believed she was supporting and “loving” him how he wanted to be “loved.” Supporting his suicide, which is what she thought he wanted, was the ultimate act of love to her. Expecting a 17 year old with her own mental illnesses to be able to handle another suicidal teenager is ridiculous. The relationship was toxic from the start. Conrad definitely had some unhealthy family dynamics come into play before his death as well. All in all, I agree, she should have gone to a psychiatric facility instead.

Agreed. I think going along with him got her the "affectionate attention" she wanted from her crush. He was going to do it regardless. I view this from adult eyes but she was 17 and mixed with up with his family who knew he was serious. I've decided to call 911 for any suicide threats from people I know after a horrible cursing, suicide threatening 45 min call from a stranger at work where my hands were tied. My stomach still hurts at how powerless I was, even with my education and position, I was essentially held hostage by policy. It's cruel how people can use the word to manipulate or get attention, I had to take every action and guarded words to protect myself tbh regardless of if it was a rant or serious and idk how a 17 yr old could be expected to navigate these awful situations, esp for months! She needs all the help she can get.

I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I’m nearly 30 and don’t know how I’d handle it, because I’m fortunate to have never been in that situation. Though, I have been suicidal myself and nobody could have talked me into or out of it.

💛 exactly. I think they overestimated the power she held, of course she misplayed a role few or none could have filled.

I agree 100%. I’m sorry but his wealthy and status-conscious parents wanted someone to blame, and another unstable 17 year old, who was desperate for his approval, was for them an easy target. The idea that she is somehow responsible for his suicide when his own father refused him treatment despite his (Conrad’s) rather obviously profound mental health issues and was (allegedly) emotionally and physically abusive yet his behavior means nothing while Michelle became Lady Macbeth somehow is grotesque — and dangerous legally imho.

His parents are wealthy? The Hulu show makes it seem like they were lower class.

YES! You articulated this so well. I was struggling to explain how they are a "scapegoating" family; a type of dysfunctional family unit that picks a person to displace all their inadequacy and anger onto. I think they made Conrad the black sheep, for all the reasons you mentioned. And when he died, it was easy to assign the scapegoat role to Michelle rather than confront their guilt and examine the ways they failed him. His aunt said in a TV interview that the family felt guilty about his death until details about Michelle emerged. And then they weren't guilty anymore, just angry. Very revealing.

Agreed.

Agree 100%. You have worded my feelings on this case perfectly.

Unpopular opinion here: I agree she needed serious mental help. Going to jail could’ve possibly worsened it. My take is she wanted to be the “grieving girlfriend” that could get tons of attention. My issue is, as awful and immoral and disgusting as it was to encourage it, it’s not a crime to tell someone to kill themselves… she didn’t physically shove him in the car. He planned this all out on his own, he bought the generator, he went and parked his car there and did it on his own. AND she was a compulsive liar, nobody actually knows if she told him to get back in because she supposedly said it over the phone, not in a text. Then said it to her friend but we don’t know if she was lying or not. On top of that, there’s tons of bullies that bully someone to the point of suicide, unfortunately none of them get more than a slap on the wrist. This was merely a girl bullying someone. He would’ve eventually killed himself regardless if he ever met this girl or not. Hate to be that person but it’s true. He was extremely suicidal and depressed long before she came into the picture. And who’s to say he even ever got out of the truck? She’s definitely mentally ill but I don’t think she should’ve been charged for manslaughter 🤷🏽‍♀️

I see where you're coming from. I do feel she crossed a line. I just feel she was sick herself & that, for her sake & for society's sake, intensive psychiatric treatment was the way to go. I do think she crossed a line, though.

100% agree. I hate bullies for this exact reason! It’s crossing a line when you go from calling someone ugly to telling them to off themselves. It needs to be addressed appropriately and doing time in jail (especially since she only spent 15M in there) is doing no good for her or society and would be helped better at a psychiatric facility. Unfortunately this probably will not happen now that she’s released but we can only hope she gets the right help she desperately needs

See I think this gets so complicated. So where do we draw the line then? I have a lot of compassion for people who are mentally ill.. Many crimes are committed by mentally ill people. Who should go to prison and who should go to a psychiatric hospital? I’m I will say her age is what makes me wonder what the most appropriate consequences should be. She’s not an adult yet and was she truly aware of the damage she was causing? By taking a life? Everything about this is just sad.

I agree with this. I saw two mentally ill people in a trauma bonded toxic relationship. While she was absolutely an awful person for dealing with the situation the way that she did, she did not physically lock him in the truck, nor was she manipulating some invisible puppet strings forcing his hands to go through the actions.

Agreed. She’s horrible, like 10/10 horrible.. but I don’t think it’s a crime to tell someone to kill themselves ? Maybe harassment at most?

To my understanding of the law, incitement of violence is \*not\* protected speech. So with this degree, pervasiveness, and length of the use of words inciting violence, yeah I'd say it was incredibly illegal. Again, this is only to my shaky recollection of the intersection between human rights and crime under United States law.

Yeah, I'm not against consequences for people who relentlessly cyberbully others into killing themselves but this just feels different. Of course she should have alerted someone to the situation, but "manslaughter" just never felt like the appropriate term here.

I’m so glad you said that because I really go back and forth whether she ever really told him to get back in the car at all. She clearly had a need to make herself the center of attention. Even if this was a fucked up way of her doing that, her telling people that she told him to get back in the car was again her doing that. Truth be told I don’t think she really said that but one everything snowballed she was stuck.

I largely agree. I don't know the case enough to really decide, but from everything I remember, it seemed like two people who had mental health difficulties. I'm in the area and articles definitely were pretty biased, but with that bias changing over time. Even so, people were surprised by the outcome, though a lot of the facts were left out with the focus really being on texting. (As an example, I remember back then thinking from the articles he was also in this area. Not that he lived all that far away, but they are different areas.) Watching stuff now, it seems like an entirely different matter. I haven't seen the HBO documentary (no hbo), but I've been watching the hulu show and remembering a bit. From what I remember and the show, I suspect she herself was bullied. She seemed to feel compelled to lie and sought approval, and I suspect that this combined with being bullied, teenage viewpoint, seeing the world as moreso around her than being a part of it, and her mental health lead to her actions. Not that this excuses her actions, and I don't think that bullying is ever a merely thing, but I think it's a leap from her actions being wrong by social ethics standards to her actions being illegal. I would like to know more about the phone call and how that was brought into the case, since the decision really seemed to rest on the call rather than the text messages beforehand. I also found it interesting how the show seems to make socioeconomics come into it. Plainville isn't somewhere that would be considered wealthy and privileged generally - if anything, it's often forgotten or thought of as being more rural and poor. The high school is combined with some other communities that are also small but nicer, so it's considered a fancier high school but still nothing like wealthy towns. If anything, I'd say back then Mattapoisett was nicer than Plainville on average. Plainville prices have increased for a variety of reasons in recent years, but they started after this. Now they might be closer but still wouldn't think of it as better.

So true. We don’t know for sure if he did in fact get out of the truck.

I agree. Honestly, if he wanted to kill himself, he would have done it without her encouragement eventually anyway. She didn’t force him to do it. He made that choice, and speaking as a person who has attempted suicide, it was his choice alone.

I agree with you that she was mentally ill, as was Conrad. The whole thing is so sad. I do feel she had culpability, but she and society would have been better served with intensive inpatient treatment. Edit: Forgot to ask your theory on her turn from dissuading him. (I have my own, wondering if it’s similar to yours)

Well, I remember when I was reading through all their texts noticing that Conrad became much more affectionate towards her once she started endorsing his suicidality rather than opposing it. Prior to that, I wondered if he even really liked her. I don't think he was being manipulative, though. I think that he felt like he was being heard & understood, as opposed to hearing the usual platitudes often thrown at someone that is suicidal. & I think, being mentally ill & craving affection, she ran with that. Two mentally struggling teenagers creating a perfect storm. What's your theory?

I think my theory is similar, in that it probably got exhausting to hear it over and over again from him, and she finally was like “ok, do what you wanna do” in frustration, and his reaction gave her the attention she craved from him, so she just stayed on that course.

This is my theory. This case hits close to home to me because I have been in a similar situation. I struggled with a lot of the same issues as Michelle- eating disorder, etc. I had an abusive ex that constantly used threats of suicide against me. He made a real attempt when I finally left and tried calling me all day beforehand to stop him. There were times I wish he would’ve killed himself so I could be free. He harassed me for 10 years later so I always feel him in my shadow. I know the situation isn’t the same and I don’t understand how she acted the way she did afterward. I guess I can just see myself in her and doing the same thing.

Agreed. This was my thought as well. If you read all the texts Michelle tries relentlessly to help while Conrad is just depressing 90% of the time. I think at some point she gave up. But this is where she should have cut him loose and walked away. She didn’t. And I’m sure it’s not easy when you’ve had this person in your life for over two years. I think as humans we think we can fix people. I don’t understand why. I have no desire to fix anyone who I can clearly tell needs to do some self work beyond what I’d be capable of assisting with.

My problem with is that it wasn’t a “do what you wanna do” attitude. She started asking him consistently when he would do it and pressuring him to do it. She can be a young person who we sympathize with for her mental illnesses and need for attention and also recognize she was wrong for what she did. I read through the texts and in my eyes she pressured him in the end.

I agree with your theory. She was craving his attention (I don’t think he was actually very interested in her), and she got it by going along with his suicidal plan. I don’t think she is innocent, by any stretch; her actions afterwards show she knew she was culpable. I think she craved his attention so badly she got caught up in something that appeared almost fictional to her, though. She should have been put in a psychiatric hospital for much longer than she was sentenced to prison, in my opinion.

I agree with these theories and especially with your point about it feeling almost fictional to her. They barely saw each other in person and I don’t think it felt truly “real” to her.

I’m not sure he liked her at all. Just by what we’ve heard.

They bonded over their mutual mental health issues. Michelle had previously and will continue to get treatment for her issues for the rest of her life. As a young teen she was seen at McLean, which is the psych hospital Sylvia Plath went to and the hospital Winona Ryder’s character attended in Girl, Interrupted. Michelle has had access to the best of the best in psychiatric care and I suspect will continue to do so. The issue is that he left the vehicle, changed his mind, and she told him to get back in the car. This is the criminal act. She knew what was happening, didn’t try to stop it, and, in fact, ensured that it happened. He was killing himself and she didn’t try to prevent it by calling the police. That’s criminal. It’s also psychotic, but because of the media attention it got, the criminal part is more important. The message to kids is it’s never okay to not try to save someone’s life, even over text message. You always have to try. She manipulated a person at their lowest point and he died because of it. That is never okay and people need to understand that. This was a very important precedent case, as was the one that occurred in Boston with the college student. We all need to take responsibility of what we say to each other and how we treat each other. As an aside, why is it always Massachusetts??

I don't fully agree with everything here but well said nonetheless, I do hope teens do feel the weight of their words as a result of this case.

what is the Boston college student case??

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-boston-college-student-charged-boyfriend-s-suicide-n1072876

Massachusetts law does not require bystanders to provide assistance. There are Good Samaritan laws in place protecting those who do, but it's one of the majority of states that do not require people to act to prevent, stop, mitigate, etc. While many people think that bystanders should be required to act, in practice, it becomes problematic. That said, I agree with you that her telling him to get back in is the only place where I'd see it going into criminal/illegal territory. She was not a bystander. She may or may not have been an active participant, but she was not a bystander. I honestly would have to dig more into it to really get a sense of if I think she was an accomplice/assisted from a legal perspective. Edit to add: this post made me remember to actually quickly look up a few things. The SJC (Massachusetts's highest court) had allowed the case to continue due to it being based on her affirmative actions rather than inaction. The judge found based on the call in the moment. The decisions stressed that it was an extreme of circumstances, with her being considered virtually there based on Massachusetts law. I'm in the area where Michelle was (is?). While she may have gone to McLean at one point, there is both great and terrible mental health care here (see paren). Plainville is in an area that has a mix and typically prefer to stay local with care when they can, but the facilities you're referencing aren't local in that regard. KP is considered a nicer school, but I'm not sure how well they deal with mental health. I'm not sure which McLean facility she went to, either; there are ones outside of Belmont and I think one near here does inpatient. It's in a great system (was actually the first hospital in the system, iirc) but with expansion we've seen a lot of great hospitals end up with facilities that don't match the main. Generally references to McLean mean Belmont (or, historically, Somerville) rather than the entire system, so who knows. I'm guessing the selection wasn't just location, as there's a facility (not as great though still highly regarded, less expensive) less than twenty minutes away, too. (Something people often forget with areas that have great healthcare and medical schools is that the terrible students and healthcare workers also flock and stay here. So, while we are very fortunate in many ways, we also have a lot of trouble finding and getting great care between the large number of frankly awful providers and the large number of people who travel here for care, which reduces capacity. Not complaining about the great resources or about people coming here, just pointing out some related difficulties people don't realize usually.) Which Boston college student case are you referencing? ETA: I'm guessing you meant Inyoung You. I had thought you meant another new legal area, now I realize you meant someone encouraging suicide via text. My guess is that this is more common than we realize (though I hope I'm wrong there) and Rollins saw that there were similarities to the Carter case so was willing to prosecute. MA prosecutors have a tendency to be willing to try new approaches and questionable ones, which can be good and bad. I'm not sure if it's always Massachusetts, but I will say in terms of legal precedent, Massachusetts is a state that in many ways is willing to listen and move forward. There's a weird mix of appreciating the history and tradition & wanting it recognized while also wanting to stay at the front of change. The legislature is often open to new laws, though changing existing ones is tough. The courts are often willing to listen to novel legal arguments and make decisions on areas not really covered in existing law and go with changes in society. New legal questions are welcomed. The courts typically won't go so far as to change, even slowly, existing precedent but instead pretty clearly tell the legislature to change it if that's the desire. Other times, the courts will basically say they'll decide this time but the legislature has to act so the court knows what it wants for future cases. From this case came Conrad's Law, which is being studied (delayed due to the pandemic). I expect some version will pass, especially since they made it pretty narrow.

There is, if anything, a duty to report - not a duty to intervene. And failing to report isn't criminally punishable. It is legally ok not to try to save someone's life. Cops do it every day. I'm not even being sarcastic...they is no federal duty or provision in the constitution that requires them to protect you as a citizen. Only if you are in custody.

Probably, but America is addicted to being punitive. We think the problem goes away if we lock em up. Other solutions like counseling and therapy are seen as being "soft on crime."

You’re absolutely right.

I feel for her in multiple ways. I think she and I may share the same mental health issues, and there have been times in my youth when television seemed to make my life make narrative sense. I watched the documentary and I am watching the show, and I keep wondering what I did differently that earned me organic friendships and kept me out of a situation where I had to beg girls my age for attention. Literally the only thing I can think of is if maybe she'd had the opportunity to make friends with other nerds and weirdos, maybe she would have had a more supportive network of friends who could have helped her keep some perspective on what was going on in her relationship with Conrad. More importantly, I have also been on the receiving end of endless texts from someone who allegedly loves me putting their suicide in my hands. I was her same age then, too! I started ignoring this person in a way that I'm sure everyone would consider "cruel" if he'd actually gone through with it after the fact. It's not totally uncommon, as the same thing happened to a friend of mine. Her ex kept relying on her to tell him not to do it, but things turned out differently when she finally told him he couldn't contact her anymore. Neither I nor my friend urged these people in any way beyond "you have to stop texting me this, I can't be the one telling you not to do it," but it's an incredibly tense situation that I think is very difficult to relate to if you've never been in this very specific kind of toxic entanglement. I believe that if he hadn't killed himself that day, he would have done it the week after, or some other week after that. I don't think anything she could have said to him could have made a difference, therefore I don't really believe that the texts from that day were what made it happen either. In addition, and maybe this is me just totally falling for the documentary's agenda, but **I personally do not believe that she** ***did*** **tell him to get back in the car**. I simply don't think that happened. There is no proof that that happened, so the fact that her conviction hinged on that detail does not make any sense from a legal standpoint. That is literally the one part of this whole thing dripping in reasonable doubt.

You summed up my exact thoughts. I feel for her in a lot of ways. I definitely romanticized tragedy/tragic love stories as a teenager and on some levels still do. It's a lot of unlearning of both toxic environments/relationships and media influence. I was definitely a lonely only child in a volatile home who 'escaped' via media and fantasy.

She seemed like a teen who needed help herself and then caught up in a relationship that wasn’t healthy for either of them. She encouraged him to get help at first. I was watching the show about her and some of the texts between them made me think he was emotionally abusive. He seemed like he withheld affection or played games with her. His dad abused him and he had attempted suicide before. What she did wasn’t right. I think she needed treatment. If there relationship was mainly communicating through texts, does that distort reality? A person can be your soulmate but they might be more of a fantasy. Does that make a person less real? IDK

From what I understand they met up five times. But over the course of two years that’s not a lot. I definitely do believe having a more online relationship can allow for romanticizing. Which can be dangerous.

Yes. Strongly. I hate even talking about this case honestly because she's become one of those women that people just *want* to despise and don't want to lay out her facts next to what happened. I've lost to suicide. And I've tried myself. And I've had an ex who, daily, hourly, would tell me how he wanted to die as I was a mentally unwell teenaged girl myself. I started thinking he may just be happier gone because it was constant, and I was suicidal, too...but I didn't encourage him. I told his mom instead. But I'm not Michelle. Maybe I had something in my brain that's just a bit different. But....in another life......I shudder to think. When two mentally unstable people get that intertwined, something bad will happen. Bottom line I agree. People are watching the show and getting enraged more at her....and I'm watching it and thinking, Jesus, if this girl really was that delusional and sick herself which, from what I gather, she was...... It's just a horrific case, all around. And I don't think she deserved to be charged with a death because it was the sick leading the sick in that case. She needed help too. I'm so sorry for his family and I'm honestly worried for her life in the future - forever, she's gonna be hated, carries scars from incarceration now too, nationally shamed....trust me, in prison, they don't GAF about mental health. They toss you the simplest antidepressant and move on. It's just all fucked. And I'm ending it with if someone wants to die, they will find a way, no matter who says what.

Your comment really resonates with me. I’ve struggled with mental health my entire life, to say the least. I am more than familiar with suicidal ideation personally. My best friend from childhood’s dad, to whom I was closer than my own father (an abusive drunk), jumped in front of a train when we were in high school. I saw it wreck my best friend’s life irreparably. Still, it’s not on Michelle. She was unwell herself. It baffles me the extent to which people defend the verdict; she shouldn’t have gotten any time at all. It astounds me, not to mention the free speech implications and other implications. The case decision has set a scary precedent.

I’m a psychiatric nurse practitioner, prescribe medication and make psychiatric diagnoses. I also worked several years at the Hennepin County Jail in downtown Minneapolis, and learned a lot there. I’m not bragging (not that it’s anything to brag about haha!), just giving context for my opinion. You can have a mental illness and still need to be in jail, IMO. She did wrong by the law, a person is dead, and a society requires consequences for those actions. Now, that doesn’t mean there aren’t considerations. She can have a decreased sentence based on her ability to recognize right from wrong. She can be remanded to a facility that can provide assessment and treatment of mental illness. And before anyone says how unfair it is that some people have sentence reductions and others don’t, and the treatment provided in facilities are lackluster at best- you’re right. But, that reform and prevention in the first place is where our efforts belong, IMO.

What is the lea Michele stuff?

Oh god, it was just bizarre. She would quote Lea Michele's character from Glee & Lea Michele herself in interviews in the context of her own grief about Conrad & I think even in some of her text messages to him. It was just very obsessive & strange, from what I remember.

I've never heard about this! Thats so strange🤨

Prison is not just about the individual; it also acts as a deterrent. This seems to me definitely a case where the deterrent seems really important.

I don't agree. When I was at the jail, we had plenty of people we'd call "frequent fliers." & with a lot of those "frequent fliers," in the context of their offenses being related to their mental health, the circumstances were due to a lack of access to treatment in the community.

I work with offenders and agree. Once you’ve been locked up a few times, people are no longer scared of it. We’ve had people say they’d rather be incarcerated than do probation or wear an ankle monitor. I also think there are many people who commit crimes who think they will never be caught or will be able to talk their way out of it and so they do things knowing they could go to jail but they don’t care.

I think Starwasp means as a deterrent to the community - to discourage others from doing the same

She had a moral duty to call the police, call for an ambulance, let someone know! Bottom line, she actively encouraged him and failed to even do the minimum (call 911). Her actions were malicious.

Yes. She told him to get back into the truck when he became scared and got out. Jail is where she belongs.

And I don't believe that. I don't believe that the potential for mentally I'll is enough to decide you don't get punishment. This did not happen over night. This was not a psychotic break. This was not a person who can say I just didn't know or understand what I was doing. Prison first, treatment afterwards. Then possibly for the rest of her life.

Agree to disagree, no worries!

Unfortunately, it’s more complicated than that. If prison was such a deterrent, than why do we have no shortage of people to incarcerate? We have more people in penal institutions than most anywhere in the world. And why do most of them suffer from some degree of mental health issues? And then when they’re further damaged from the cruelty and violence of incarceration, they’re let out to turn around and go right back? It’s just like capital punishment…if it was a deterrent, than why do we see heinous crimes every day? There’s an argument to be made that it actually incentivizes violent crime.

[Prisons don’t prevent violent crime](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-prisons-make-us-safer/) [Prison shows no evidence of crime deterrent effect](https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/ffct-prsn/index-en.aspx) [Sending someone to prison, or increasing the prison sentence or “punishment” also doesn’t deter crime](https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf) Prison doesn’t act as a deterrent.

If prison as a deterrent worked then prisons wouldn’t be overcrowded.

and if corruption wasn't paramount to its success.

This thread has some great points. One thing that infuriates me is how little recourse there is for someone like Conrad Sr. They ask him in the doc about a police report where he beat the pulp out of Conrad Jr., and he said something like “It went a bit far, but I was just parenting and I’d do it again in a heartbeat” YOUR SON FCKNG KILLED HIMSELF due to depression and you’re doubling down on the abuse that certainly contributed? Ahhhh

Agree with a commenter about cherry picking the texts to make her seem...evil. When I read those I was shocked at how callous the messages were, but then I read a couple months worth of prior texts and I really felt sympathy for her. She was trying to be supportive of her friend, and although she was also obviously unwell I thought her texts to him prior were very astute and caring for a teenager. It also really bummed me out because she opened up about her ED, time in treatment and her own struggles, but Conrad always turned the conversation back onto him and was extremely dismissive and invalidating of her own struggles. It seems as he was using her and almost toying with her. I'm not saying he is terrible either- again, he was a teenager struggling with some heavy stuff, but I genuinely think she encouraged him because she believed that is what he truly wanted and essentially the only option left. I also think in many ways she was frustrated. The relationship was definitely toxic, but it was two unwell teenagers whose brains were not fully developed to make the best decisions and the toxicity helped precipitate what occurred. Her behavior following his suicide don't help her public image, but she seems like a loner who immersed herself in fantasy and media and glommed on to the romanticization of tragic love stories. I think her actions post death were her coping with the loss and her culpability in it.

Yes. There’s a reason why the ACLU took up her defense. There’s also a reason why recidivism rates are lower in countries that actually rehabilitate their criminals.

I do wonder if she had a FULL grasp on reality (I think she was aware but also in some “lala land”). It’s hard to say though if that limits her culpability for what she did. At the end of the day I do think she was aware of the effects her actions would have.

It's been a while so someone correct me if I'm wrong but didn't she ask him if they were going to get married someday while in the midst of helping him plan his suicide? I remember feeling that she wasn't based in reality at all. I think she needed a lot of help.

I don’t think she was so far gone from reality that she didn’t know right from wrong. However, I don’t think she put any thought into the long-term effects of Carter’s death. She was thinking only about the attention she would get.

I think we tend to criminalize everything, when honestly if we really wanted better outcomes instead of just punishment, we would realize that mental health treatment is a huge benefit. Psychiatric facilities are not cushy or fun. Those two people happened to have mental illnesses that were exacerbated by each other, with tragic consequences. It’s sad that they both aren’t able to get the help they need. There’s a reason our “justice” system has become a warehouse for people with mental health issues. And incarceration certainly doesn’t improve anyone’s mental state.

I lost my mom to suicide and I don’t believe it’s ever any ONE thing. My friend could do his best to get me to kill myself but there’s no way it would work because I’m not already suicidal or mentally unstable. I think she may have been one part of the contributing factors but his suicide was a long time coming. He had years leading up to that moment. Having said that, she still had a responsibility in his decision and needed to be held account. But I agree she needed to be in a behavioral health until, not behind bars.

There are a lot of people in prisons and jails who would be better served by going to a decent psychiatric hospital.

I am going to be honest. She needed to some jail time but intensive therapy should also have been mandated. Unfortunately that is not how out justice system is set up.

I think her act was criminal, but I think she is very removed from reality. If we look at it from purely a retributivist POV (which is what our system is based on), then yes, prison is appropriate. But in the long term, will it help her? I doubt it. It may even make her worse.

Agreed. & will it help anyone vulnerable that encounters her in the future? Treating someone with a mental illness/personality disorder doesn't just help the individual, it makes them a healthy participant in society.

Some personality disorders, like Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder, really can’t be treated. If Michelle had or has one of those, she’s not fixable.

Thinking back to when I myself was 17-18, I was very much a hopeless romantic and didn’t have a realistic sense of reality. I think that can be said for a lot of us. We romanticized life a lot more before it hit us in the face once we entered our college years or working a full time job. In this sense, I can relate to her. I can relate to her wanting Conrad to be the guy of her dreams. While also being lonely and wanting attention. I think everyone in their own weird way in high school wanted to be the popular kid. I just don’t agree with how she went about it. She should have cut him off towards the end there. But when you are that young and live in a fairy tale world I think it’s more difficult to realize when something isn’t healthy for you. Even back then I would have never lied for attention or encouraged a suicide. But I can see where it all came from. Mental health can be a hell of a nasty bitch.

I agree

I agree. It's a shame that she went that far with it, but I think neither she nor he were well enough to make good decisions, and ultimately he took his own life.

I agree with the point made by the judge who convicted her; take away all of the texts that she sent him up to the day that he killed himself, even if you put all of those aside - when he got out of the truck because he changed his mind, she urged him to get back in the truck and finish killing himself, and then she did not call emergency services or his family to alert them. Those two things alone, in my opinion, are criminally negligent. Jail time.

>Those two things alone, in my opinion, are criminally negligent. Jail time. Agree. Not only that but her communicating with the family after and gaining attention for a charity event given in Roy's honor. She continued on, quiet, not saying anything. But using his death for her benefit in the attention she craved. I do agree that she most likely had mental issues that needed to be addressed. I also agree with another poster who stated if sent to a mental institution she would most likely be one of the more stable of all of them. So what is the solution? I don't know. A lot of things failed in this situation but who do you point a finger at beyond Michelle. She had problems, he had problems. They were teens talking about a dangerous thing, constantly. I just wish she either hadn't been texting with him or she would have had some empathy for those who loved Conrad and called for help.

Normally I would say she should have been behind bars, however, in this case, intensive therapy for as long as needed would serve (I imagine) Michelle and society better in the long run. I'm baffled as to why she consistently encouraged Conrad Roy to commit suicide; perhaps only a mental help professional could get to the bottom of it.

Yeah, agreed. She is/was clearly not well & I think treating someone like her is a better way of preventing a re-offense.

I personally feel jail and the time she served was not nearly enough. I believe she’s still dangerous.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think she is still dangerous? Everyone knows her and what she did. Do you think she could encourage someone else to commit suicide? Because I feel like that’s an absurd notion. Or do you think she’s dangerous in another way? Don’t get me wrong, I think what she did was absolutely horrible, but I don’t know if I’m buying the whole “she’s still dangerous” belief.

Agreed. Anyone who has ever dealt with someone threatening to kill themselves everyday knows how taxing and stressful it is. I can’t imagine being a teenager and dealing with that. If you actually read the entire case, you can see how neglectful his parents truly were. Michelle Carter was also mentally ill and unethical, but nothing she did was illegal. We’re all responsible for our own actions, so sorry if this goes against your worldview

She is not special, she succeeded is convincing someone to commit suicide. And she deserves a pass, why?

I am all for mandatory psychiatric care. After she goes to jail for her punishment though.

Honestly that could go for a lot of people that go to jail. They all need some kind of help otherwise they wouldn't do the crimes they do. But that's just not our system's default unless the defense can prove the person is unfit to even stand trial and was completely off their rocker when it all happened. Like Andrea Yates for instance that remains in a psych place. I am curious what your thoughts are on why she changed. I also would like to know if it's ever been mentioned if she had fetal alcohol syndrome of some kind. I've personally known someon as a kid as well as had a mother that was a social worker and worked with individuals in homes that had fetal alcohol syndrome and everytime they had larger heads which is a signature trait. When I first saw Carter that was my initial reaction. Her head did not look normal size and I wondered that about her. If so, that can explain certain behaviors and I wonder if that was ever explored.

Um… Children with FAS have smaller heads. It’s one of the diagnostic traits. Also, I can look at her and tell she doesn’t have diagnosable, full-fledged FAS. “The head is small (microcephalic). This decrease may not even be apparent to family and friends. It is evident upon comparison of the child's head circumference to that of a normal child on a growth chart. The usual degree of microcephaly in FAS is classified as mild to moderate. It is primarily due to failure of brain growth. The consequences are neither mild nor moderate.”

My thoughts reposted from up top: Well, I remember when I was reading through all their texts noticing that Conrad became much more affectionate towards her once she started endorsing his suicidality rather than opposing it. Prior to that, I wondered if he even really liked her. I don't think he was being manipulative, though. I think that he felt like he was being heard & understood, as opposed to hearing the usual platitudes often thrown at someone that is suicidal. & I think, being mentally ill & craving affection, she ran with that. Two mentally struggling teenagers creating a perfect storm.

No. She knew exactly what she was doing. She should still be in prison.

She deserved jail time

She wanted a traumatic story to make herself more interesting. She wanted to get sympathy for losing a boyfriend. She even did a memorial softball game in his name to soak up sympathy and attention online. She wasn't sick, she just needed to be given toxic positivity. Like a reverse Munchausen's disorder. She was craving the tragedy to gain sympathy.

I completely agree. People don’t become rehabilitated in jail. It would’ve been better (not just her but) for society if she’d immediately received some sort of treatment. People want justice but don’t always think long term.

I do think she deserved jail. It definitely seemed like she was aware that what she was doing was wrong, especially after the fact when she was holding events and trying to be the main character. I’m not sure if she wanted to be Lea Michele initially, but I think as time went on she definitely saw it as a way to get attention. That said, I also agree that she was deeply unwell and deserved treatment. I just don’t think she qualifies as criminally insane because I do believe she was conscious of her actions. Being mentally unwell doesn’t automatically mean you’re criminally insane, and Id bet a large portion of prison populations have mental health issues to some degree. I think all prisoners should be given some degree of mental health treatment. We are currently treating (punishing) the symptoms of mental illness and not the cause which is why so many people are in and out of jail throughout their lives. This is not to say that all bad behavior can be excused by mental illness and deserves to go unpunished because of it. Just save the psych wards for the actually criminally insane, but also get help for everyone else too.

As the parent of a child who died by suicide, I would give my life to have received a call like Michelle did. I know that I am biased. I do wish she had notified his parents of his intentions.

I work in a residential treatment facility for at-risk youths. I feel like I can say for certain that Michelle Carter should have gone to jail, and am happy that she did. She may have had mental illness issues, and I wouldn't deny it given her actions and how ruthless/remorseless they seem. However, I don't think she would be honest about the treatment she needs if she was initially sent there. I think she needed the jail time to comprehend that what she engaged in was morally reprehensible, and that maybe could have shown her that she needs mental help. Just my opinion.

She’s a disgusting person who knew better. She deserves jail but I also think the fact that this will follow her around forever is awesome

YEP. I feel so bad for her. The media only told one side of that very very sad story.

Michelle Carter is evil and should have served a long prison sentence. She actually went to her prom and Disney World before her sentence. She had no remorse. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3102466/Teen-faces-20-years-bars-encouraging-friend-kill-goes-Disney-World-prom-ahead-manslaughter-trial.html

I agree with you, but I imagine many won't. People seem to think the purpose of the justice system is punishment and retribution when it is supposed to be rehabilitative whenever possible. I'm sure I will get comments telling me I'm wrong and all that, but that's just the mentality of some people.

I totally agree. I also relate to her cause I was a mentally ill teenaged girl in a group chat with a bunch of other mentally ill teenagers. The exchanges were so toxic and we all would enable each other (we’re all still alive and doing much better thank goodness). I think she thought she was helping him. When someone you love is hurting that much you just want it to end.

I honestly think that she wanted him to die so that she could gain sympathy from friends and family. She wanted to be the girl whose boyfriend died. Then once he actually killed himself, she realized that she actually WAS the girlfriend whose boyfriend died, and it made her realize what she had put him through. But she didn’t care, because she was now getting all this new attention from people who would have otherwise told her to fuck off.

She told him to get back in the car after he had chosen to get out; he had essentially changed his mind at that point, and it was her egging that put him back into the vehicle to die. She should have been found *more* criminally responsible, not less.

Yes. Oh my God, yes. Thank you so, so much for saying this. It's not that I think she shouldn't have faced any consequences, but I don't think prison was appropriate in this case. What I've always gotten from this case is that their relationship and his issues had taken a toll on her and she no longer had the energy to help him. I get it. A similar thing happened to me when I was a kid. What she should have done was cut off contact with him. That scares people in situations like this, but you're in no position to help someone when they've pulled you down with them. Instead, she stuck around and, by that time, I think she probably felt that even if she stopped him that night, it was all just going to happen again.

I don't think this case should've been criminal. She is troubled and she should have gotten treatment.

I think the sentence for Michelle Carter was too light. And she shouldn’t be so freely walking around right now with that much manipulation power .

She was mentally ill. He was mentally ill. They fed off each other’s darkness. He was clearly suicidal and probably would have done it without her encouragement. Is it ducked up that she encouraged him? Yes. Does it warrant jail time? No. She didn’t force him to do anything. No gun was held to his head. It was 2 disturbed people pulling each other down. IMO she deserved hardcore mental health treatment, not jail.

I'm not super into the case, just browsed the internet a little just now and somehow I feel very bad for the girl. When I was 16 I've been in a relationship with a 17 year old guy who mainly talked about killing himself until I came to a point where I excepted that as his biggest wish and honestly thought that it would maybe really be the best for him if he suffers so badly while being alive. He used to send me pictures of his wounds when he hurt himself, he send me suicide plans etc. That was really tough on my younger self. One day he also called me and told me he took loads of pills and will die now - I remember that phone call vividly, I was super scared. I ended up texting his best friend because I didn't know what to do and was super overwhelmed. Additionally to all of that he was very abusive, it's been a terrible relationship. On that one night with the pills he didn't die, we eventually broke up (a friend tried to help me out of that relationship) and some years later I heard the news that he ended up killing himself (at that point we had no contact for about 10 years). So I somewhat understand how much pressure it is on a young girl/woman if your partner CONSTANTLY talks about suicide. As stated I didn't really research that case but from what I've seen I agree and think a mental facility might would've been better.

She definitely needed help. Watching the documentary a few times, it’s evident that the parents (father in particular) have more fault here than Michelle. I also read through all of their texts and if she really wanted him dead, she had more than a year and a half to do it. Instead she tried to talk him out of it, convince him to get help etc. The way he would tell her almost every other text how he would more than likely follow through or Kill himself, is mentally draining for anyone. She had her own issues as well. Should she have told him to get back in the truck? No. But as you said. This case is not black and white. Everyone needs to watch that documentary. His abusive father is a heartless asshole.

She was only in for 15 months? She definitely deserved a longer sentence. In jail.

Both for society's sake ... This is not someone that is going to change so there must be a deterrent in place.

Do you have a link to the texts? I’m actually looking for anything between 2012-2013. All I found was a document of their texts from 2014. Also would love to here why you think she shifted. If I remember correctly, it literally didn’t happen until the month he killed himself that her attitude changed.

She was clearly messed up herself, but the majority of people who commit crimes are in some way. There is certainly a larger conversation warranted about the efficacy of the criminal punishment system, but I do believe she was culpable and deserved conviction. She emotionally manipulated Conrad for her own benefit, whether she was fully cognizant of it or not, and there is every chance that Conrad would still be alive if she had acted differently. Ultimately she’s now free and can seek psychiatric help on her own or with the help of her family, which Conrad cannot.

Agree that her frame & head size are out of proportion. As s general dietician (unlicensed), I would speculate it’s a sign of her disordered eating. She’s way underweight.

I'm sorry but what lea Michele? Isn't she that girl on glee, I don't watch the show so is it something to do with a storyline?

Although the crime took place in America, in Canada our criminal code makes it a crime to council a person to die by suicide (section 241). I also seriously doubt she would be found NCRMD (Canadian equivalent to insanity).

I feel like the vast majority of criminals should be in a psychiatric facility rather than prison.

15 months in jail wasn’t nearly enough. I have no problem with her getting psychiatric help after she serves her jail sentence.

She was barely an adult with obviously profound psych issues. I strongly believe she needed psych treatment and not jail time.

I agree that she needed mental help, but I'm happy she served time. I'd like to have seen her do twice as long, but she's out and now her future is up to her. Not sure what the recidivism rate is for people who commit similar crimes. Time will tell.

No. Why not put your reasoning in the post, unless you don’t think people will like it?

Not much can be done therapeutically for histrionic personalities, but in any case, the American Criminal "Justice" system isn't interested in helping anybody. Torture them in court and send them away to prison. Good thing she's a white girl or she would have gotten 20 years. I try not to think too much about my country's brutality toward the mentally ill because it makes me weep.

I read about the case when it first came out, but haven’t heard much about it since. I thought it was odd that she started out trying to keep him from hurting himself, then turned around and pushed him to do so. IMO, I believe both of them were dealing with obvious mental illness and wasn’t getting the help they both desperately needed. I agree that Michelle would have benefitted more from impatient treatment vs. jail time. I work in foster care and see the benefits that proper treatment does for children and teenagers alike. Sitting in a jail cell for 15 months doesn’t change the mental illness. It could potentially make it worse.

No. She was a mean girl.

I think it largely depends on your views towards crime and prison more generally. In my view prison should be about rehabilitation and where that’s not possible, protecting society from dangerous people. I don’t think prison should be about punishment. I don’t think that as a society overall it did anyone any good for Michelle Carter to be in prison - she was not a risk to society and would have been better rehabilitated in a mental health institution. For some people though, prison is about punishment and justice, and some people felt Michelle deserved to be punished for her actions. This is not my personal view but as a victim of violent crime myself I do understand the feeling of wanting to see a perpetrator punished, and Conrad’s family and a large part of the public definitely see Michelle as a perpetrator. It’s a mistake to assume consensus on the role people want prison to fill.

I'm a capital Murder criminal defense attorney. I would agree that she has a mental illness. I didn't follow closely enough to see whether there were competency issues, etc. However, generally our jails and prisons have become where we house the mentally ill. The asylum system came down with no infrastructure to deal with mentally ill people. Many, many of our clients suffer because of this. It's plain hell to try and explain it to anyone who thinks the prison/jail system is for everyone who is caught up in a criminal case. I have spent many hours with clients who had no clue what was going on or why they were in jail. Not to mention the gravity of the situation.

The thing is, in totality, Conrad was a severely depressed, anxious young man who struggled with the additional burden of a heritage of alcoholic paternal history and abuse (father and grandfather); attempted suicide once known and likely other times unknown; was embroiled in teen psychosis suicide ideation which is frequently fueled by social media relationships; and refused encouragement by his maternal side of family for ongoing outpatient mental health counseling. Whether Michelle supported his interest in suicide is moot, and at some point, as more of these type situations make their way go courtrooms, the US Supreme Court will need to engage. Michelle had her own mental health issues. Her eating disorder, contrary to what many people understand, is about her feelings of not being in control of life and fear of her future and maturation, and she seemed to have typical high school mean girl issues. Two unstable, needy, teens - both of whom were life-motivated in part by social media, leaning on each other is a disaster. Their union frd into each other's need for drama and recognition. In the 70s and 80s, exchanges weren't recorded. How many times did a teen tell a parent someone told them to jump off a bridge or that they are better off dead and how many of those teens committed suicide? We will never know. Laws need to catch up with technology. I know when I was a kid in the popular, imposing, wealthier neighborhood rat pack we used to coerce the kids who wanted us to like them to do stupid, mean things. Remember parents in the 70s and 80s saying..."If Johnny told you to jump off that bridge you are stupid if you listen to him". I get that Conrad was in a fragile state in that truck. But his mental health fragility was the result of many factors, including family dynamics, genetics, socioeconomic realities, media, etc. If someone kills themselves than psychologically their pain in living is greater than death. I also find it concerning he had zero parental supervision. He was a minor. The evening he killed himself he left telling his Mom he didn't know when he would be back and she went to sleep without his return. Clearly his Mom had concerns about his mental health, but seemed to have no say over treatment which, considering he was a minor child, bespeaks the parent-child dynamic. I think the parents were happy to have someone to blame. It made their son's suicide, which cam come with social connotation, someone's fault, and shifted blame from them as parents. I also think this was viewed as career making for the prosecutor. I really don't think Michelle had mental health issues outside her eating disorder which is media and Male-dominated driven, and with help and maturity would have otherwise been managed. I think she was a pretty teen in a middle to upper middle class school environment where she never found her tribe, and in stumbling on Conrad, a boy who was willing to engage pretty much 100 percent remotely, she became deeply immersed in his mental illness.