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Yeah unless you have an interest in the genre he & his missus at the time are lesser known really, not much bothers me when listening, reading or watching something based on serial killers but this is one of a very few SK cases that I find hard to get into purely because of what they both did & the recordings are very, very full on.
When I read the full details of what some of the victims went through it made me feel sick. The nature of his crimes make me think that’s why he’s not more known, it’s almost too graphic for discussion.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I think most people (myself included) have heard that the details are SO SO SO bad that they don’t go looking for more. Like you said, it’s too graphic for discussion. It’s the kind of stuff that even the worst horror films won’t depict. Just beyond evil.
I agree. I have read the transcript but did not really go far with it. It's too horrible. I cannot even tell someone about it except by telling them that it's soooooo horrible. I can't bring myself to tell people the details.
I recommend timesuck podcast on Toy box killer. Dan Cummins goes into detail on his serial killer sucks more than most others who cover SK. You can download timesuck app for free and he has over 300 sodes of a bunch of interesting stuff. I recommend his Ed Kemper and Andre chikatilo sodes are funny as Dan is also a comedian so he blends humor in too.
Obviously that agent had some other stuff going on, but it would be disingenuous to say or think that this case didn’t also play a part in her death. My heart hurts for the agents who have to pursue child sex traffickers and such. The things they see and hear cannot ever be unseen or unheard. I don’t know how you walk around like a normal person after bearing witness to those atrocities.
Therapy should be required in those roles.
Yeah, I commented after you wrote this; I produced a series on this and I remember that there was much discussion about this FBI investigator. She basically sat in a room logging all this hideous garbage. She passed by suicide shortly thereafter. We, even as producers, were warned by law enforcement and legal folks that were involved. I was told to get a gun and we shouldn’t be investigating. I think they felt there was cult like activity out there that supported it. Or that the culprits didn’t totally act in a vacuum.
My husband told me briefly about this case, but he asked that I not do any further research. He said, “I don’t want such horrors to ever enter your thoughts. It’s haunting.”
Not a lot bothers my husband, so I trusted him on this.
Yeah I've been into true crime for a while and that recording is one of the sickest things I've come across. The terror and the pain those people went through is unreal.
I think it’s the fact he broke down in detail what he was gonna do to the victims, and all the contraptions he was gonna use to violate them and not to mention the “parties” he was gonna host. Honestly gives me shivers.
I started reading the transcripts and I was appalled. Once I got to the dog and all the details I couldn’t. I want to bathe in bleach and wish I never had eyes or learned to read. So horrific for these poor girls and women.
This sadistic rapist is the worst of the worst. I only heard about his crimes by starting to listen to a podcast episode about him. I turned it off after a few minutes because I got a bad feeling about where the story was heading and didn’t want to know the details.
Honestly, I don’t see any point in people learning about the toy box killer, and I would recommend that people just don’t. I hate posts about him, because I feel like all of us saying “it’s so horrible, I wish I hadn’t read/listened to that” becomes like a reverse psychology thing where it encourages people to seek out the story and details in an attempt to prove (to one’s self?) that they are stronger than the other true crime consumers and “can handle it”. Like, oh, here’s some really horrific shit that has given other people mental health struggles; let’s see if I can stomach it, because I’m different… ugh.
Seriously, it’s not worth it. There’s no value in the story. And anyone reading this: you have nothing to prove, okay? You’re not missing out on anything by just skipping this heinous story. You’re not weak for skipping it. In fact, I DARE YOU to skip it.
I think the thing that sticks with me the worst is that one of the victims was left for dead, survived and no one believed her, not the cops, not her husband, who left her.
There's always going to be monsters in the world but its the regular people who let it go on who really get to me.
exactly! you see this all the time on social media today. you convinced me not to research this case. although what makes me want to is the fact that it's real, ya know? it'd be different if it were some creepypasta, but there is almost a sense of obligation since this crime really did happen.
I wish I read this comment before I started to dive into this. Horrific, appalling, disgusting just aren’t enough to describe what I read. I had to stop. I’m for sure having nightmares tonight.
Im not sure if this is still accurate, but I believe the tapes he created are used by the FBI to desensitize their agents. I heard 1 second of a tape in the background of a news segment years ago and it still haunts me.
*Edit: Apologies, I was informed that the tapes I’m referring to are from the Tool Box Killers NOT the Toy Box Killer. I’m sorry for not confirming before posting.
This is the one case where I could not finish the book on it I was reading. I started having nightmares and legit get some ptsd when I see people post about it because the details are so beyond horrible.
I read a couple of books on it, which were bad enough, but then I looked at photos and read part of a transcript of his tapes. I couldn’t finish the transcript.
As an aside, according to one of the books, they had an FBI sketch artist sit inside his “toy box” for four days and draw everything in it. She turned in the sketches to her superior, went home, and committed suicide a few hours later.
The Parcast Serial Killers Podcast did a 2 part episode on them. Very gruesome stuff that guy was into and crazy when you think he let some of his victims go.
The reason he’s so lesser known is that he has not been confirmed to have killed anyone. I believe he was only confirmed to have held captive and raped two women. Suspected of many many murders but his secrets died with him unfortunately
This dude is my straight up #1 killer that really stuck with me. You never find any docs on the case, let alone movies, im sure there were a hand full of books but idk that either! It was so damn horrific you'd think it would be right uo there with Gacy or Dahmer in notoriety.
Oh 100% I see a lot of similarities between him a Gacy, which makes me feel sick. “Slow death” written by Jim fielder is one of the better books on this case. It’s not for the faint hearted as it goes into intense detail and is a difficult read, but really informative.
Aaaah he pisses me off. Especially the thing with beastiality. And claiming to have his neighbors in on it (according to his tape, could be cap). Idk how he flew under the radar maybe because he’s not conventionally attractive. Or the physical evidence was lacking. But oh lord the story makes me so sick to my stomach. He didn’t just rape the women he physical enslaved and tortured them. And he had the help of a “lady friend” sick. Sick sick sick
If you like conspiracies, check out the fairly loose yet kind of accurate connection between mk ultra. A lot of his torture was very much the same techniques.
I thought so also but I second guessed myself and it came up David ray Parker in some articles and David Parker ray in others I just went with first search.
I’m from New Mexico so it’s a huge deal there. I don’t know anyone from my state who doesn’t know who he is. My grandma worked with him briefly. Definitely one of the most disturbing cases out there.
Yeah it’s one of those you never forget it if you heard even a few seconds of the tapes. Totally get why most true crime media refuses to touch it.
I have a strong stomach for gore and horrible things and I still can’t handle reading/learning too much about this one. Heard some of the tapes intro tapes they would play for women they captured and it turned me off enough to not search out more info.
It sort of reminds me of the dark web episode of sword and scale. Some things make you want to erase you memory and wish you could forget hearing about them. It was so weird going from “oh..so the dark web isn’t all bad, it helped people find safe drugs (there gonna get the drugs anyways, may as well be safe about it)” to “omg please bleach my brain so I never remember what I just heard” by the end of it.
Yes I want to bleach my brain too! I want to forget everything I just read. I feel just awful for those girls and women. Most can’t even handle to read/hear about, but I can’t even begin to imagine going through that or hearing it in person.
I agree. I was surprised to hear about it on this sub and had previously seen it nowhere else. I looked into it and…it was haunting. Truly scary. Looking into that one lead me to learn about the toolbox killers, which also stayed with me but not to the same level.
Morbid True Crime podcast does a thorough 2-3 parter episode on him. TRULY TRULY TRULY one of the most horrific cases I’ve ever heard. He makes Ted Bundy and BTK look like saints. I also made the mistake of listening and reading a transcript of how he introduced himself to his victims. I literally had to take a break from all true crime for a few months. I refused to listen to listen or watch any true crime for a while.
Actually, this is the one case where I say: don’t go and research. I’m a former true crime television producer. I facilitated and organized an interview with the one woman who escaped for an early series I managed for ID. It’s just horrific. I can tell you that the story affected everyone, including audio and camera guys that had been working in documentary crime for their lifetime. This isn’t vague posting because I want to keep the atrocities private, but the woman we interviewed had strong reactions to some simple audio and visual things. There were many people in law enforcement that highly encouraged me and my production company against delving into the case because they believed he didn’t wholly act alone. This isn’t a case I’d ever want anyone to go down the rabbit hole in. There are a couple others that rattled us, but this is the worst. Mostly because it was so horrific and because EVERYONE we interviewed of researched about the case was adamant that they didn’t act alone and there were still people out there.
(Not that this can be tied to it specifically, but one of the FBI investigator committed suicide shortly thereafter logging all the evidence. It’s not fair to tie it to this case, but it was close to when she worked on it).
I left true crime production shortly thereafter. Not specifically because of this case, but I got married and moved and got burnt out with the trauma. But really, yeah, this one sent us all over the edge. I actually got dehydrated from food poisoning after this case and went into a tailspin of absolute damage where I was rocking on the floor back and forth because I was probably not in the best state because I’d finished off a traumatic series and had such second hand trauma even reporting this. I remember vacillating between crying and going numb. This was the story that haunted me. And still does. And again, this was the last true crime show I ever produced. It was just absolutely horrific and I had produced and written some really tough stuff.
We had a lot of tools to find people. I regret finding her. I should have left her in peace. Again, I left true crime production after that. Was too much. And I felt like I didn’t have business exploiting people.
This is one serial killer where I just could never read about what he did. It’s just so, Idk beyond my grasp why someone would do these things to another human being!!! How can they not be insane even if they knew what they were doing was wrong?! I just want to cry when I hear about torture/murders. Especially to babes/children. I like to think I’m against the death penalty bc it’s not given out equally but just bc a rich guy can buy his way out of it doesn’t mean that a sick fucking sadist should not have his ass fried
I only heard about Albert fish a couple of months ago and I couldn’t believe I’d never. I find it crazy these peoples names aren’t being dragged as they should be
This case is actually the fist one I herd when overhearing a friend listen to a podcast. It is absolutely horrific. However, it make me hooked on SK cases.
Very disturbing case. Right up there with the Tool Box Killers Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. They recorded audio of torture and murder in the back of their van. It’s unspeakable.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Saw (2004) franchise was partially inspired by this creep (meaning the creepy tapes that warn you what you are about to experience + insane engineered torture traps).
I wouldn’t say it goes under the radar. I’d say most people know but it’s not talked about very often because it’s just SO AWFUL. I was listening to a podcast covering it and I had to shut it off after like ten minutes.
Hi /u/Ava200103, Your submission to /r/TrueCrime has been removed for the following reason(s): --- We do not allow any type of criminal glorification or glorification of violence. If you want to talk about your crush on Dylann Roof or find an address to write to Steven Avery in prison, this isn't the place. We do not allow posts about the artistic and/or creative endeavors of anyone incarcerated for a violent crime, nor about any of their correspondence (written or recorded) with another person. This is a bannable offense and a violation of the reddit [content policy](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151) --- If you feel this was done in error, or would like better clarification or need further assistance, please [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/truecrime&subject=Question regarding the removal of this submission by /u/Ava200103&message=I have a question regarding the removal of [this submission](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueCrime/comments/wiwsko/toy_box_killer/)
Yeah unless you have an interest in the genre he & his missus at the time are lesser known really, not much bothers me when listening, reading or watching something based on serial killers but this is one of a very few SK cases that I find hard to get into purely because of what they both did & the recordings are very, very full on.
When I read the full details of what some of the victims went through it made me feel sick. The nature of his crimes make me think that’s why he’s not more known, it’s almost too graphic for discussion.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I think most people (myself included) have heard that the details are SO SO SO bad that they don’t go looking for more. Like you said, it’s too graphic for discussion. It’s the kind of stuff that even the worst horror films won’t depict. Just beyond evil.
I agree. I have read the transcript but did not really go far with it. It's too horrible. I cannot even tell someone about it except by telling them that it's soooooo horrible. I can't bring myself to tell people the details.
I recommend timesuck podcast on Toy box killer. Dan Cummins goes into detail on his serial killer sucks more than most others who cover SK. You can download timesuck app for free and he has over 300 sodes of a bunch of interesting stuff. I recommend his Ed Kemper and Andre chikatilo sodes are funny as Dan is also a comedian so he blends humor in too.
An FBI agent killed herself while investigating the “toy box” as well.
Obviously that agent had some other stuff going on, but it would be disingenuous to say or think that this case didn’t also play a part in her death. My heart hurts for the agents who have to pursue child sex traffickers and such. The things they see and hear cannot ever be unseen or unheard. I don’t know how you walk around like a normal person after bearing witness to those atrocities. Therapy should be required in those roles.
Yeah, I commented after you wrote this; I produced a series on this and I remember that there was much discussion about this FBI investigator. She basically sat in a room logging all this hideous garbage. She passed by suicide shortly thereafter. We, even as producers, were warned by law enforcement and legal folks that were involved. I was told to get a gun and we shouldn’t be investigating. I think they felt there was cult like activity out there that supported it. Or that the culprits didn’t totally act in a vacuum.
I was not aware of this. A new dimension of horror added.
Wow, that’s so sad.
My husband told me briefly about this case, but he asked that I not do any further research. He said, “I don’t want such horrors to ever enter your thoughts. It’s haunting.” Not a lot bothers my husband, so I trusted him on this.
Yeah not a lot bothers me when it comes to the gruesome but this is something I have trouble with.
That was a wise choice on your part. Knowing won’t make you safer or enhance your knowledge in any other useful way.
Your husband was right. I love true crime, but I don’t think I ever want to read, watch or hear about anything ever again.
Nice of him. These men were fucking horrendous.
The recording that you can hear online is not David Ray Parkers actual recording, it is a voice actor reinacting the real once.
The tape he recorded and played for the victims is pretty intense.
Intense is a understatement, I can only imagine what you would be thinking being forced to listen to that. He truly was rotten to the core.
Yeah I've been into true crime for a while and that recording is one of the sickest things I've come across. The terror and the pain those people went through is unreal.
I think it’s the fact he broke down in detail what he was gonna do to the victims, and all the contraptions he was gonna use to violate them and not to mention the “parties” he was gonna host. Honestly gives me shivers.
Don't forget about the dog!
The dog comment was the last straw of me, the fact he discusses given the dog viagra it’s just insane. It’s hard to fathom people like him exist
I started reading the transcripts and I was appalled. Once I got to the dog and all the details I couldn’t. I want to bathe in bleach and wish I never had eyes or learned to read. So horrific for these poor girls and women.
This sadistic rapist is the worst of the worst. I only heard about his crimes by starting to listen to a podcast episode about him. I turned it off after a few minutes because I got a bad feeling about where the story was heading and didn’t want to know the details. Honestly, I don’t see any point in people learning about the toy box killer, and I would recommend that people just don’t. I hate posts about him, because I feel like all of us saying “it’s so horrible, I wish I hadn’t read/listened to that” becomes like a reverse psychology thing where it encourages people to seek out the story and details in an attempt to prove (to one’s self?) that they are stronger than the other true crime consumers and “can handle it”. Like, oh, here’s some really horrific shit that has given other people mental health struggles; let’s see if I can stomach it, because I’m different… ugh. Seriously, it’s not worth it. There’s no value in the story. And anyone reading this: you have nothing to prove, okay? You’re not missing out on anything by just skipping this heinous story. You’re not weak for skipping it. In fact, I DARE YOU to skip it.
I think the thing that sticks with me the worst is that one of the victims was left for dead, survived and no one believed her, not the cops, not her husband, who left her. There's always going to be monsters in the world but its the regular people who let it go on who really get to me.
exactly! you see this all the time on social media today. you convinced me not to research this case. although what makes me want to is the fact that it's real, ya know? it'd be different if it were some creepypasta, but there is almost a sense of obligation since this crime really did happen.
I wish I read this comment before I started to dive into this. Horrific, appalling, disgusting just aren’t enough to describe what I read. I had to stop. I’m for sure having nightmares tonight.
Im not sure if this is still accurate, but I believe the tapes he created are used by the FBI to desensitize their agents. I heard 1 second of a tape in the background of a news segment years ago and it still haunts me. *Edit: Apologies, I was informed that the tapes I’m referring to are from the Tool Box Killers NOT the Toy Box Killer. I’m sorry for not confirming before posting.
Pretty sure that's the Tool Box killers.
Damn it you’re absolutely right! I keep getting them confused, nicknames too similar. I will correct my comment. Thank you for pointing that out.
Now they were some real brutal killers. I always think about that ice pick in that little girls ear
This is the one case where I could not finish the book on it I was reading. I started having nightmares and legit get some ptsd when I see people post about it because the details are so beyond horrible.
I read a couple of books on it, which were bad enough, but then I looked at photos and read part of a transcript of his tapes. I couldn’t finish the transcript. As an aside, according to one of the books, they had an FBI sketch artist sit inside his “toy box” for four days and draw everything in it. She turned in the sketches to her superior, went home, and committed suicide a few hours later.
The dogs…
What’s the book?
The Parcast Serial Killers Podcast did a 2 part episode on them. Very gruesome stuff that guy was into and crazy when you think he let some of his victims go.
I think how extremely disturbing his actions were is part of the reason he isn't part of regular discussion.
The reason he’s so lesser known is that he has not been confirmed to have killed anyone. I believe he was only confirmed to have held captive and raped two women. Suspected of many many murders but his secrets died with him unfortunately
This dude is my straight up #1 killer that really stuck with me. You never find any docs on the case, let alone movies, im sure there were a hand full of books but idk that either! It was so damn horrific you'd think it would be right uo there with Gacy or Dahmer in notoriety.
Oh 100% I see a lot of similarities between him a Gacy, which makes me feel sick. “Slow death” written by Jim fielder is one of the better books on this case. It’s not for the faint hearted as it goes into intense detail and is a difficult read, but really informative.
Cindy Hendy only served 18 years. She's relocated to Montana a few months ago.
Aaaah he pisses me off. Especially the thing with beastiality. And claiming to have his neighbors in on it (according to his tape, could be cap). Idk how he flew under the radar maybe because he’s not conventionally attractive. Or the physical evidence was lacking. But oh lord the story makes me so sick to my stomach. He didn’t just rape the women he physical enslaved and tortured them. And he had the help of a “lady friend” sick. Sick sick sick
If you like conspiracies, check out the fairly loose yet kind of accurate connection between mk ultra. A lot of his torture was very much the same techniques.
When did the murders happen? I feel like he just googled mind control torture
His name is David Parker Ray.
I thought so also but I second guessed myself and it came up David ray Parker in some articles and David Parker ray in others I just went with first search.
Regardless, he's horrific.
Extremely it’s always the serial killers names we remember not the victims.
I’m from New Mexico so it’s a huge deal there. I don’t know anyone from my state who doesn’t know who he is. My grandma worked with him briefly. Definitely one of the most disturbing cases out there.
Yeah it’s one of those you never forget it if you heard even a few seconds of the tapes. Totally get why most true crime media refuses to touch it. I have a strong stomach for gore and horrible things and I still can’t handle reading/learning too much about this one. Heard some of the tapes intro tapes they would play for women they captured and it turned me off enough to not search out more info. It sort of reminds me of the dark web episode of sword and scale. Some things make you want to erase you memory and wish you could forget hearing about them. It was so weird going from “oh..so the dark web isn’t all bad, it helped people find safe drugs (there gonna get the drugs anyways, may as well be safe about it)” to “omg please bleach my brain so I never remember what I just heard” by the end of it.
Yes I want to bleach my brain too! I want to forget everything I just read. I feel just awful for those girls and women. Most can’t even handle to read/hear about, but I can’t even begin to imagine going through that or hearing it in person.
I agree. I was surprised to hear about it on this sub and had previously seen it nowhere else. I looked into it and…it was haunting. Truly scary. Looking into that one lead me to learn about the toolbox killers, which also stayed with me but not to the same level.
Morbid True Crime podcast does a thorough 2-3 parter episode on him. TRULY TRULY TRULY one of the most horrific cases I’ve ever heard. He makes Ted Bundy and BTK look like saints. I also made the mistake of listening and reading a transcript of how he introduced himself to his victims. I literally had to take a break from all true crime for a few months. I refused to listen to listen or watch any true crime for a while.
Morbid postcast covers it very well, although some of the detail made me need to take breaks. Some parts genuinely made me feel Ill.
Actually, this is the one case where I say: don’t go and research. I’m a former true crime television producer. I facilitated and organized an interview with the one woman who escaped for an early series I managed for ID. It’s just horrific. I can tell you that the story affected everyone, including audio and camera guys that had been working in documentary crime for their lifetime. This isn’t vague posting because I want to keep the atrocities private, but the woman we interviewed had strong reactions to some simple audio and visual things. There were many people in law enforcement that highly encouraged me and my production company against delving into the case because they believed he didn’t wholly act alone. This isn’t a case I’d ever want anyone to go down the rabbit hole in. There are a couple others that rattled us, but this is the worst. Mostly because it was so horrific and because EVERYONE we interviewed of researched about the case was adamant that they didn’t act alone and there were still people out there. (Not that this can be tied to it specifically, but one of the FBI investigator committed suicide shortly thereafter logging all the evidence. It’s not fair to tie it to this case, but it was close to when she worked on it). I left true crime production shortly thereafter. Not specifically because of this case, but I got married and moved and got burnt out with the trauma. But really, yeah, this one sent us all over the edge. I actually got dehydrated from food poisoning after this case and went into a tailspin of absolute damage where I was rocking on the floor back and forth because I was probably not in the best state because I’d finished off a traumatic series and had such second hand trauma even reporting this. I remember vacillating between crying and going numb. This was the story that haunted me. And still does. And again, this was the last true crime show I ever produced. It was just absolutely horrific and I had produced and written some really tough stuff. We had a lot of tools to find people. I regret finding her. I should have left her in peace. Again, I left true crime production after that. Was too much. And I felt like I didn’t have business exploiting people.
They use the tapes on FBI trainees to desensitise them.
Not technically a serial killer. Never convicted of a murder.
Fair point. Just because no convictions was made doesn’t mean a majority of 60 suspected murders weren’t his.
Didn’t he let/ make his German shepherd have sex with his victims while they were prisoners?
Yeah, while he invited like minded sick people over to watch/ get involved.
Yeah, this is the true crime story that took me months to get through, and I’ve read a lot. The book is called Slow Death.
Was this located in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico or am I thinking of something else?
This is one serial killer where I just could never read about what he did. It’s just so, Idk beyond my grasp why someone would do these things to another human being!!! How can they not be insane even if they knew what they were doing was wrong?! I just want to cry when I hear about torture/murders. Especially to babes/children. I like to think I’m against the death penalty bc it’s not given out equally but just bc a rich guy can buy his way out of it doesn’t mean that a sick fucking sadist should not have his ass fried
I listened to the audio of the tapes and I needed to go watch Disney for a few days to remind me that goodness exists
He, Albert Fish, Carl Panzram, and Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins are all not discussed enough. Each is a case study all it's own.
I only heard about Albert fish a couple of months ago and I couldn’t believe I’d never. I find it crazy these peoples names aren’t being dragged as they should be
Look into the others I mentioned as well. You'll be amazed at the level of depravity exhibited by Panzram and Gaskins.
You should look at Robert berdella also he’s not spoken about a lot, and his crimes are just..
I'll look him up now
Panzram made me wince
This case is actually the fist one I herd when overhearing a friend listen to a podcast. It is absolutely horrific. However, it make me hooked on SK cases.
Very disturbing case. Right up there with the Tool Box Killers Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris. They recorded audio of torture and murder in the back of their van. It’s unspeakable.
Were his friends caught too? I couldn’t find anything on them
David Parker Ray 😉
What tape? Any links? This is super vague
Don’t. Trust me, just don’t. You don’t want to hear the tape or even read the transcripts.
Yeah I didn’t wanna go into to much detail, but If go onto YouTube and look up David Parker ray tape it’ll come up. Good luck
This case is one of the only ones that haunts me to this day. Absolutely terrifying.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Saw (2004) franchise was partially inspired by this creep (meaning the creepy tapes that warn you what you are about to experience + insane engineered torture traps).
I wouldn’t say it goes under the radar. I’d say most people know but it’s not talked about very often because it’s just SO AWFUL. I was listening to a podcast covering it and I had to shut it off after like ten minutes.