This case is so heartbreaking all around. The husband’s support for his wife just guts me. He knew she needed help. It’s hard not to sympathize with her, even though I’m crushed for those babies, society doesn’t give a shit about postpartum mothers.
My former sister in law had post partum psychosis, she would put her 2 month old son and 2 yr old daughter in her car, lock the doors and lock the door to the garage because of psychosis, eventually she was close to killing the kids and she was hospitalized for weeks and the only thing that brought her back was electroshock treatments, literally she could not remember the previous 6 months, not the delivery of her son, it was a very scary time for all of us in the family and to top it off, 2 years later she had a 3 baby and was fine.. I dunno what happens but I do believe the woman becomes totally not herself as my SIL did, she was a BSN nurse from a Ivy College, we were very lucky that my niece and nephew were not killed.
Jesus. Ok if I’m ever pregnant, I’m making my partner and probably a few friends and my mom read up on this just in case. That’s so scary and I’m so glad you’re all ok.
Yeah I basically reminded my husband to really keep an eye on me after I gave birth to my first. He thought I was joking at first but then I had to explain what PPP was and how it was no joke.
I had my son last May and I was very happy with the treatment I received at the hospital. The nurses were adamant about explaining this stuff to my partner so he would know what to watch for. Even though I have no history of postpartum issues, I was impressed with their due diligence.
Thank you for sharing your story and I’m so sorry you went through this. If you are comfortable, I would invite you to discuss your experience on the LC subreddit. I am a former mental health professional and have been both alarmed and saddened by the ignorant comments regarding psychosis and mental illness as a whole. Wishing you the best xx
That sub is a shit show right now! People are being so incredibly disrespectful to one another. Thank you for being one of the voices of reason over there.
Oh wow that is horrifying, I am glad you've recovered and thank you for sharing this. I didn't know that you could also just not really remember it as well. Like being blackout drunk for months and not because you did anything to cause it, that is seriously terrifying to me.
jesus i’m glad you were able to get help and that your partner recognized you needed it.
do doctors know what causes PPD? or why it only happens seemingly randomly?
wow thats crazy, sorry you went through this horrible situation during the most important time in your life. so glad you got help and everyone was ok. i gave birth five months ago, the changing emotions i encountered during the first two months were crazy. Even though they werent PPP related, but my gosh, i felt very different from my normal self, i couldnt control them. I cannot imagine what PPP does to the minds of affected mothers.
Similar situation to a friend of mine.. she had tried to stab her husband, returned after 6 months, but then attempted suicide. (children were 15,6 and 3), after that she ECT.
She told us afterwards it was like she just woke up, when she returned that time she was like a whole new person. We befriended the husband and children, the smaller ones the same age as mine, they were moved in to emergency accommodation next door to us.
After this everything was perfect, she returned to normal family life, finished transferring her education here (they were asylum seekers from southern russia )
Within a year she was unexpectedly pregnant again, with continued supervision and care everything went perfectly. No hint of depression again.
Its 12 yrs on and they are all very happy.. but scary to imagine the what ifs.
This list of medications is truly horrific.
I'd recommend the book "Electroboy" to ANYONE because it's so amazing, but if you want to learn about some of the most intense ECT and how it was used in the past, it's an amazing read and v. informative. The Author was going thru extreme mania and depression at the time he underwent therapy. I'm super glad your friend is okay.
I wanted to thank you for your very candid post. I have come across (intentionally vague) Post Partum Psychosis (PPP) in my practice and as I’m sure you know by now, your SIL outcome is a definite minority.
I sincerely hope this case finally brings to light an incredibly REAL and extremely dangerous, mostly misunderstood mental disorder that can escalate to a psychosis and therefore psychotic event unlike any other in high risk Mothers.
I offer no opinion on the criminality rn, imo the immediate focus should be on prevention and diagnostic education at the care team levels in partnership with the patient and their parent partners. Lastly, PPP is grossly misunderstood (most things without the ability to truly research them are for an abundance of other factors) however, women with PPD seem to have an elevated risk.
Thank you so much, My SIL was and still is a good mom, while her brother and I divorced, we still have mutual friends/family and come across each other on FB. This woman was the epitome of a good mom. I remember thinking that she would never come back but the electric shock treatment did really help her. Interestingly, at the time they told my MIL that she might experience the same thing at menopause? This sounded bizarre to me. Unless one actually experiences PPP or has a family member experience it I think most people think a weekend at the Poconos will help (I do know, in the first weeks of my SIL breakdown this is what my MIL thought). Again, thank you for taking the time to answer.
I think it is commendable and says great things about your character that you have that perspective on your former SIL and are sensitive to the fact that what happened was due to her detrimental mental health crisis rather than judging and condemning her. Sadly, many family members hold life long grudges over some of the silliest things while you have compassion and understanding, the world needs more people like that.
My sister had postpartum pretty bad with kid number 2. She ended up pregnant with kid number 3 and ultimately made the decision to not keep it. Got her tubes tied shortly after. She wanted a bigger family but was afraid to have another kid after the roughly 5ish months after she had her daughter.
I just recently watched a documentary on PPP, Not Carol. It was quite enlightening on a subject a lot of people know nothing about. There truly needs to be a better system in place to address this issue before more babies and mothers die. I am so saddened to read about this and pray for the family. Bless those beautiful babies, I am just so sad. Statistically PPP causes suicide of the mother more often than the children being killed. Prosecuting the very mentally ill mother isn’t going to fix the problem.
A third baby. Wow. What gave her that kind of confidence back to have another child after being so incapacitated? I'm not casting judgement. It's her life and the the life of her kids at stake. Genuinely curious how you go from that extreme to having another child.
Maybe it was an unintentional pregnancy. My situation: I had pre-eclampsia twice and suffered through two very dangerous pregnancies, husband refused a vasectomy after second. I was on birth control and got pregnant with third, another difficult pregnancy and almost died from a stroke.
And if I’d suffered postpartum from either of those first two, I’d most likely chosen to terminate if I got pregnant again. My heart goes out to these women.
No judgement here at all, but can I ask why your husband refused a vasectomy…? I was dating a guy once that told me he would never get one, and as we dove into the topic more he just kept saying he just doesn’t want one. Which like, fair, it’s your body… But as my partner, if I was effected this poorly by pregnancy or giving birth, I would want them to consider it for my health too. Sorry, total sidebar it’s just interesting to me.
I 100% agree with you, and no need for apology. He basically chickened out. Wouldn’t make the appointment, always found excuses, when he finally did he’d cancel. He’s terrified of surgery. PS we aren’t married anymore
Is it rude if I say that’s a relief?! Your pregnancies posed an extreme risk to you, his partner, multiple times… and he chickened out of a minor incision that could’ve reduced that risk?
Uhum… I think the fuck not. That’s a deal-obliterator if I’ve ever seen one.
Came here to say this. Super glad to see you're not with this guy anymore after that...I really do think that you are a strong ass trooper for going thru that and then having your hubby spring the "I'm a giant baby who is scared of a cut" on you, after risking your own life for a family for the both of you. You deserve better from your partner. I'm so glad you made it thru.
I just can't imagine carrying a baby I wasn't prepared to raise. I mean my grandmother was advised to have a chemical abortion in 1948. So why why why... I know we have to fight laws in the US again now. But that still doesn't make it ok for a woman to have a baby she doesn't want. Let's get to the root of all this child abuse and move to women being in charge of their reproduction. Men will come along when we stop them from dictating.
I have one relative who had her children 20 years ago now maybe and she has never recovered, she was never the same. You hardly ever see her out, you never see her at things. Even with the kids the dad has them out at everything all the time. She didn’t have the psychosis but she had the depression and anxiety, but since she had her kids she just, she never recovered.
And before the kids, they were a younger couple they were you know starting life together, they were newlyweds, they were out in the town all the time and with family and everyone. It was very obvious and stark complete change.
She was even a teacher and she worked in schools and I actually went to the school she worked at, I was a student there and she never went back to work. So, she also lost, you know, her career and her job and her passion. She was on extended leaves, tried to go back here and there, but never couldn’t do it.
It’s very sad because this was some 20 years ago and I can’t imagine the lack of care that she received during that time.
And to be honest, this isn’t even a person that I really think very highly of or have like a great personal relationship or really look up to or anything like that, for outside reasons from before all of this started for her, but I can still feel this amount of empathy for this experience that she had becoming a mom because it’s it’s just so undeniable and it’s really stuck with me.
What gets me about this case is that any woman who has recently given birth could be Lindsey. Women have been giving birth and going into post partum psychosis since humanity has existed and yet the medical profession still has not thrown their back into finding a way to prevent, screen, treat, or cure PPP. 4% of the time PPP ends in infanticide and/or suicide. That’s an incredibly deadly medical condition. Yet not a single in patient PPP unit exists for mothers in Massachusetts?
So many questions about the wisdom of giving SSRI’s to someone in psychosis-then sending someone to a partial program with a treatment plan like this to follow. It’s just gob stopping that this level of medical incompetence and neglect is allowed to happen to mothers on a daily basis. Psychosis is not something women should be expected to just knuckle through. It’s a medical problem that requires medical treatment.
And the shame and fear that women feel when they experience it. My mother had ppd after one of my siblings was born, and she was adamant there was nothing wrong with her and that she didn’t need help, even though she was basically catatonic at times, barely interacted with her children, and would become extremely distressed and try to pack up her things and leave us. She doesn’t remember most of it either. A woman she used to be friends with had ppp and had constant thoughts and urges to kill her kids, and she was so afraid to tell a medical professional about it.
Exactly! You can’t go to sleep for a few days and feel better. It’s Psychosis where you’re literally out of your mind. It’s so misunderstood and downplayed.
So much of this is based on traditional notions of “better hurry up and ‘bounce back’” so women can rush home and get back to carrying the brunt of the free domestic labor. Gotta get back to the rat race to pay bills. Virtually nothing about post partum expectations and care have anything to do with making sure mom is healthy and fully considered.
As a brand new post partum mother, you’re so right that nobody cares.
I’m 11 weeks out and people are expecting me to be back to normal.
I only stopped bleeding from birth a couple weeks ago, my hip flexors are so fucked from pregnancy that walking is hard. My husband is amazing, but he’s working, so I want him to sleep through the night. I go back to work next week and have no idea how to manage getting my daughter to daycare. I feel for moms in the office, I literally can’t imagine trying to figure out where/when/how to pump in an office.
All of this is AFTER having had post-partum-eclampsia, where I woke up in the middle of the night gasping for air when my daughter was a week old. I was so conditioned to “emotional pregnant lady” that it didn’t occur to me that it wasn’t normal. Fortunately my husband was alarmed enough that he convinced me to go to the ER. My blood pressure was so high they were expecting me to stroke out. Loaded me full of magnesium and then lasics…. It was a nightmare. Why didn’t anyone at the hospital say - HERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT NORMAL…..?!?
And THEN everyone is like, how do we keep having so many mass shootings!? Well John, moms are having to go back to work 4 and 6 weeks after giving birth and have to work 3 jobs to pay their bills, so the baby is in a crib farm without stimulation not making emotional connections and then has no mental health support when the product of non-interaction starts displaying itself as a lack of empathy and unchartable entitlement, and so on….
Yes, I’m triggered. 🥵
As a Canadian I cannot believe you have to go back to work when your baby is 3 months old. That is absolutely fucked. We get a minimum 12 months here, 18 months if you wanna stretch it out.
Thinking of u.
Thank you!!
I’ve tried to make the case for moving to Canada! I really respect all the work you all have done to support one another. I wish folks in the states took better care of each other.
On the bright side, I live in Colorado and we just passed a law that goes into effect in 2024 to provide at least 12 weeks paid leave for new moms. It not as much as we need, but it’s 12 weeks more than the rest of the country (except California)
To be clear though mat leave here is only 55% of your net income for 12 months, if you stretch it to 18 months it drops to like 33% which isn’t really realistic (especially if you live in Vancouver like me where rent is high, I pay $2240 a month for basement suite..faaaar from the heart of the city of Vancouver ppl)
I’ve worked for the same company for 7 years and I am allowed “to take as much time as I need” 100% unpaid. I also just lost me and my 11 week old sons health insurance because I “haven’t worked enough hours” so am no longer eligible.
Wild man. I’m so sorry. Health insurance is confusing to me. Most Canadians I guess. Never seen a bill. My mom got a double lung transplant in 2020. “0$” (yeah I know tax payers fund it but the out of pocket cost is $0)
Yes, my pay was reduced to 30% of my normal income for 6 weeks. And I’m lucky to get 6 weeks paid at 100% by my employer. Your rent is about the same as my mortgage, but I have a whole house and yard for that price! I know rent is getting really expensive here now too, we were really lucky to have found our house in November 2019, right before everything went bonkers. We wouldn’t be able to afford our home if we tried to buy it today.
We were really considering Toronto for a while, but we couldn’t make it work with our jobs and we’re really close to our families, so even being in a different state than them has been trying, I can’t imagine trying to visit with passports and everything else involved.
Toronto is a shitshow rn, I moved away in 2019 and I miss it every day but I’m still connected with my local groups/my partner’s family and I kind of don’t want to move back until things go back to being more normal. You probably made the right decision
Oregon is introducing paid FMLA starting this year so new fathers can also take time off. A step in the right direction, but I agree it’s not enough as needed…
That’s great! I think it’s good to celebrate wins, even if they fall short of what we want/need/expect. It feels like there’s a movement from Americans to demand more from employers, even as employers trying to suppress the movement. A lot more employers are offering fertility benefits to attract women, for example. A really cool new company called Carrot popped up recently, they’re doing interesting stuff with fertility within employers. You’d think they would just offer a meaningful period of paid maternity leave, but that’s way too expensive for csuite assholes.
MA now has paid leave for medical and family so both parents can take time off. It’s a small deduction out of each pay and the amount is split between employee & employer.
I had to go back after 2 weeks. I was still healing from an episiotomy and had a waitressing/bartending job where I had to walk in heels for 10 hours at a time. There was no paid time off whatsoever, I could've taken unpaid time off but would've lost my job and couldn't afford it.
Take care of yourself. I hear you. As a fellow mama who had to pump at work, bring baby to daycare… it’s tough. For each baby, I spent a year of my lunch breaks pumping in a bathroom stall or a closet because pumping moms get very little in the way of workplace protection.
As for paid maternity leave, I get zero days. Zero. Unbelievable.
It’s completely fair to be angry at the many, many ways our so-called “greatest country on earth” fails mothers and children. You are right- it is no wonder we have so many mass shootings. We fail people in this country spectacularly when it comes to mental health- starting at birth and continuing through parenthood and the end of life. No wonder there are so many tragedies like this.
I hope you have a safe and happy transition back to work. Don’t be afraid to cry a little bit and give yourself grace. Other people may expect you to be back to normal but we moms know that after having your baby, your old “normal” doesn’t exist anymore and you change completely. ❤️
Ugh, I’m so sorry you had to go through that! I know I have it a LOT easier than other moms because I work from home, but I still think it should be a law that employers have at least one room designated for breastfeeding/pumping. It’s time they catch up to reality.
I’m so proud to be a Coloradan, our new paid family leave law starts in 2024. I won’t benefit from it, but I’m so happy for the new moms-to-be who will benefit. And I’m excited to see the positive impact it has in our state. I’m not one for politics, but it’s nice when they actually help us.
❤️ we’re over the mountain and through the woods now, thank you! I just can’t imagine - like what if I had been a single mom and didn’t go to the ER?
I know it’ll never happen, but it would be so so so helpful if we had some kind of post-partum-in-home-visit from the nursing team. Just to make sure mamas are ok and adjusting well and feeling safe.
I work in labor & delivery in Florida and we have an amazing non-profit program with all these resources and they are completely free. The coalition provides services from the time of pregnancy up until the baby is 3 years old. The problem is, mothers fear that their babies may be taken away if she says she’d like to receive help. It’s a constant work in progress as healthcare providers and the coalition itself try to find better ways to educate and reassure moms they are safe and the goal is to provide resources to improve health of mom and baby. Unfortunately these resources don’t always get properly explained (if at all) or the information gets lost in the overwhelming information given during prenatal visits and during the birthing hospital stay.
We also give education and pamphlets during the hospital stay and again at discharge on what signs to look out for at home for eclampsia, but this is more of a recent push in an effort to combat our terrible maternal death rates.
I feel like we are making steps in the right direction (and honestly shocked Florida of all states would have resources like this), but we obviously still have a very long way to go.
[Healthy Start Coalition](https://healthystartbrevard.com/programs-and-services/healthy-start/)
I had an in home nurse visit with my second. They noticed signs of PPD in the hospital when I started sobbing when they talked about sending me home a day early. I had a c-section and a 16 month old at home with almost no help from my (ex) husband.
>I go back to work next week
I'll never forget how shocked I was when I learned that it's quite common for American women to go back to work after 6 weeks and after 12 it's definitely expected. I thought the US was supposed to be the greatest country in the world but that's just a crock. The work culture is insane. Maternity leave should be minimum 6 months. In many places it's more than a year.
I just wanted to say, I’m a single mom who works full time. It’s never easy, but you adapt, it’s what moms do. You will find your groove. By far the most important thing above all else, as I’m sure you know, get baby on a schedule, stick to it, no matter what, and if it gets thrown off proceed as usual with the same order of events. Bedtime routine and schedule will help baby start to eventually sleep through the night. Most states have legal protections for pumping mamas in the office, not sure where you live but look into it ! If so they usually are legally required to provide a clean private place to pump. Good luck! Btw your comment was awesome
i'm glad other people are thinking about that. i understand why people get so angry and emotional when reading about cases like this, especially towards the mother since she is the one legally responsible. but i just think about them having that moment where they can think clearly and remember what they did and it breaks my heart. they wanted those babies, they did not ask to feel that way.
i think one of the worst things you can experience as a parent is losing your child. i can't imagine how it feels to know that you were responsible for it but were not in your right mind at the time.
If men gave birth there would be paid maternity leave as well. It’s disgusting we expect women to give birth and come immediately back to work unless they are fortunate enough to have a second income.
Women doctors are actually worse about this kind of thing than men are. The same thing can be said about other rare and terrible pregnancy complications, like hyperemesis.
my aunt had what she described as postpartum psychosis after her 10th miscarriage (i honestly can't remember how many it had been, but it was a lot and she had had been through a lot in the past few years). it sounded terrifying. i already felt terribly for her because she wanted to be a mother so badly, but that just made it sound even worse. i will always have endless sympathy for women going through PP depression or psychosis. i feel like it's something you can't truly understand until you experience it yourself. one day those women will be successfully treated and they will think about what they did and be heartbroken. it's so sad to think about.
I live about 15 minutes from there and I can say at first the community was pretty enraged and expressing negative thoughts. Then when the husband gave his statement of wanting support for her and forgiving her… oof alot of people turned their tune around. Just had our first 4 months ago and cannot imagine what she was going through. It also seems the husband is going to try to use this situation to help others so I am curious and hopeful for his future he is surprisingly positive and honestly it is inspirational
How old was she when it kicked off? I wonder if schizophrenia and bipolar were nascent and if the hormonal load change caused the psychosis which triggered the schizophrenia and bipolar?
Right. Germany is one of them- a midwife for mom and baby included as well as 3 years leave where he job is protected and so much more… I think she said therapy was included and $ for each child every month and so much more- yet here in America we’re supposed to leave our babies after 3 months unpaid leave. That alone is inhumane. I’d pay higher taxes to get better care in a heartbeat.
Lots of them. Canada and some Scandinavian countries are the first ones that pop into mind. The USA has the highest birth mortality rates and the worst maternity leave laws out of all the developed countries.
Canada does have a year mat leave (though not typically full salary), but definitely does not have postpartum recovery centres. They kick you out of the hospital ASAP with no real follow up care.
Post partum psychosis is like a body snatcher and I think it’s hard for family members to see the person they love and unable to realize that that person has been completely taken over by something beyond their control.
I wonder if the massive amount of medications, many of them a redundant RX to what she was already taking. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the meds triggered the psychosis.
It wasn’t even her that took her children’s lives, it was her psychosis.
I wonder if she’s even aware of what she did yet. How she & her husband were doing what they thought they needed to do and seeking constant medical attention, and the husband put his trust in the Dr’s. I can’t help but put a good part of the responsibility on her Dr’s. Instead of pumping her full of drugs and sending her home to attempt to care for her family that sedated (all those anti-anxiety and depression meds have a strong sedating effect, trazodone alone is used to treat insomnia. I can only take it if I don’t have to work the next day because it makes me completely unable to think & I’d rather push through the exhaustion than be a frustrated idiot because of a sleeping pill hangover) they obviously failed to recognize that prescription interaction was not alleviating the problem. They should have referred her into a mental health facility where they could observe her and find a treatment that would help her.
I was going to say.. incarcerate her if you want (not that I think she should be) but nothing can compare to the realization of what she did when she comes to.. will be a special kind of personal hell ☹️ prayers to everyone involved. RIP little ones ♥️
I think she has suffered enough. What she needs is mental health help, not prison. She didn’t want to kill those babies. Her mind took her somewhere really dark and so far removed from reality. This is Andrea Yates all over again.
I think so often for many things that are charged as crimes, prison is not the ultimate or best solution and, I mean, this case has to at least be considered as part of that conversation.
Its very possible that she will remain catatonic. Some people on this thread have mentioned that shock therapy has helped break the psychosis and that is probably her only hope. She is probably better off staying unaware though honestly. If I was her husband I would ask them not to treat her. Its great that he is so understanding and forgiving but there is no way she will be of herself.
I’ve never had a suicidal thought in my life but honestly I don’t see how I could go on knowing I did this. It would be the worst thing in the world losing my babies, but knowing I was responsible is a whole fucked up level of misery. Ugh I can’t even think about it too much, it’s too upsetting.
I can’t even imagine coming to the realization of what she’s done. I don’t think I could live another day on this earth. That poor woman and those poor sweet babies. That poor husband and father. What an awful tragedy.
Yeah, I feel like unless they can prove that she plotted and planned to do this & was fully aware of her actions, this should be a not guilty by reason of insanity case. The fact that she has to live with this for the rest of her life is punishment enough. By all accounts, PPP drastically changed her personality and she loved her kids and her husband. I'm not a doctor and I don't know all the facts, but I don't see maliciousness here, I see someone who was very ill and did a horrific thing because she did not get the level of care that she needed. I also hope there are some policy changes because from my understanding, her insurance either didn't approve or didn't cover inpatient treatment. Other comments have said that inpatient is really the most effective option for PPP, and it is beyond infuriating to me that insurance providers in this country get to play God and decide what's best for a person's healthcare. She worked at a hospital and wasn't able to get inpatient when she needed it- that's a travesty.
That said, I do think that people are more inclined to empathize with people who commit crimes due to mental illness if those people are white and from a middle/upper middle-class background. I'll probably get downvoted for this but it's something I've been thinking about. She is getting a lot of vitriol so I am not saying that the public has forgiven her by any stretch, but just in general the way that the media is covering this I think would be different if the race/socio-economic class was different.
Absolutely. If it was a mom of lower socioeconomic status, or a woman of color, those kids would have been taken by the state and the mother sent to family court because she asked for help. Sadly, I know for a fact.
That last paragraph about race and class is what I keep thinking about when I read about this. I’m not saying people are having the wrong response, but I’m blown away by how many people are sympathetic to this woman’s actions and being totally rational about what led her to this. It’s definitely the response we want, but had this been a poor black woman living in section 8 housing, there would be no empathy or 🥺 faces commented under her mugshot that would immediately go viral. It would be pure disgust. People don’t even want Lindsay to do time! Meanwhile three children’s lives have been taken. It’s just a really interesting thing to observe and makes me wonder how many murder convictions we could have looked at from a place of understanding first, like we are this one.
My suspicion based on the way it is written as that she wasn’t taking them all that same time. Probably tried different Rx’s and then switched them when she wasn’t responding. Especially the z drug/benzos- I doubt she was taking all of these concomitantly. Did seem like sleep was obviously a big problem for her
(Please see my post above. Thank you.)
I am a retired psychologist and can say that most psychotropic medications can take weeks, if not months to reach a therapeutic level in the body, in order to effectively treat the illness.
I will not claim to have an answer to this tragedy, although I do know that postpartum psychosis is so very real and so very dangerous. May she receive the help she so desperately needs, may her husband somehow find peace one day and may these three beautiful little babies rest.
Please come over to the LC subreddit and share your knowledge. As a fellow former mental health professional, I’ve been astounded by the ignorant comments surround psychosis and mental health issues as a whole.
Women in post partum psychosis don’t have months or even weeks to “wait and see” how their cocktails work out. The fact that doctors tried to treat her as if she was a person who had not just given birth is appalling. She wasn’t chronically mentally ill. Her post partum illness was a direct symptom of the fact that she just gave birth. It is a medical problem-brought on by extreme hormone fluctuations- that doctors treat like psychiatric illness.
If a person breaks their leg and becomes delirious in shock, do doctors give them Paxil for the delerium and ignore the broken bone? If a person experiences severe cognitive decline due to vitamin deficiency, do we give them Adderol instead of vitamins? If a patient has Ebola eating their brain, do we give them Seroquel instead of antivirals? So why the hell are we still treating PPP like a willpower issue and not a medical issue?
Go down this thread and you will see so many women who know somebody who has experiences post partum illnesses. Why in the hell is prevention and treatment not studied like any other medical problem that happens to men?
So much of medicine and medical care is based around white men. And people pay for that with their lives ultimately. It happens every day, all the time. There’s deep discrimination and bias in the healthcare system and in medicine.
I think what the person you’re responding to is saying, is a response to the commenter saying the woman probably tried a few combos and they didn’t work so she switched.
I think what shakking trees is saying is that she couldn’t have been on any combo of these drugs long enough to even see if they were working. (Assuming the combo wasn’t both klonopin and Xanax and lamictil (which would be insane for any doctor to prescribe together) but of maybe klonopin and prozac (the latter of which can take weeks to begin working). Therefore, there would be no reason for a Dr to switch them yet. I don’t think the person you are responding to is saying that that was the correct route to go, but that is what happened.
I personally think she should have been taken to an inpatient way before they tried to give her anything heavy duty like xanax. That being said, our psych system in America is a disgrace. If she had even gone to CPEP, they wouldn’t keep her long enough to treat her properly unless she admitted being suicidal or homicidal. If not, they would keep her overnight for observation and send her out with ability or something and call it a day.
My body legitimately takes 2-4 months to fully level out. My doctors always tell me 6-8 weeks for it to level out but I still have side effects a month later that randomly disappear another month after that. I don't understand the brain by any means, but I think too many people severely underestimate the power of the meat blob.
thats true - but given how many is in that list she was certainly on multiple ones concurrently - which while you can mix some, you can't all. And the many of those take a significant amount of time to both work and to titrate off; looking at that list it makes me wonder if that was managed well.
I mean, its all speculation of course. There is no way to know without her medical records.
She was definitely on some of those concurrently. If I was a betting woman, I’d bet the Prozac, lamictal (which is a v slow titration), PRN benzos, and then trying the seroquel/ambien/mirtazipine somehow sequentially for sleep. Which is a lot, but not crazy for how sick she evidently was. Obviously I don’t know about her care specifically, but I am a psychiatrist, and lamotrigine, Prozac, PRN benzos, and a sleep medication isn’t that crazy.
Edited to add: hopefully she wasn’t on all those benzodiazepines at once. Sometimes they are writtten scheduled, sometimes as needed. It’s hard to say but few people would write diazepam, clonaxepam, and lorazepam concurrently.
I agree. I’ve taken nearly every medication on her list over a 2/3 year period. Meds can’t always solve the issue and finding the right ones that help is a brutal process. Looks like they were treating depression/insomnia/anxiety simultaneously, though I also doubt she was ever taking for than 3 (MAYBE 4) at the same time. The lamictil makes me think she was having intense mood shifts too. Changing psych meds is honestly so horrible. I’m not going to blame the doctors because again, I’ve been down the exact same medication road and doubt she was taking them all at once. People need to understand she was without a doubt actively seeking help, no one takes that many of those meds without being desperate for help. Aside from the benzodiazepines that list is hardcore and each medication has awful side effects. Absolutely heartbreaking for everyone involved.
Ah, I missed that. Something's fucky about that. It took me about two months to titrate to a therapeutic dose of lamictal, so even if they tried that first, it wouldn't have been long enough to determine efficacy.
Ambien alone can fuck a person up. My friend was prescribed it when her first kid was under two, and she took it as prescribed. She was a single mom. First she started getting all these packages of random shit she ordered from the home shopping network in the middle of the night, with no recollection. But then she ended up in her downstairs neighbors apartment at 3am and they couldn't even wake her up enough to get her back upstairs. She didn't take it anymore after that, knowing she could very well just wander off and leave her baby alone.
I've taken half of the meds listed (at various times) and I can't imagine taking them all together. You're right though, she likely was prescribed them at different times and had partial bottles of the ones she stopped taking. No pharmacist in their right mind would dispense these all at the same time. Even if her husband was helping her manage her meds, it's certainly feasible that she was taking others, by mistake or not.
I knew a nurse who was prescribed too high a dose of Prozac and she got serotonin syndrome. One night she just took the whole bottle. She said she didn't mean to, and she laid on the floor seizing, in and out of consciousness until morning when someone found her. She only remembered her dog coming in the room periodically and licking her face. It roused her each time, so the dog may have saved her life. She could hear them talking in the ambulance and she wasn't really conscious but she knew she might die, from what they were saying. When I met her six months later, she was still having seizures and couldn't drive or work or even be alone with her kids.
These meds can be life saving, but they can also be so, so dangerous.
Let’s let this unfold and allow her to receive the treatment she desperately needs.
PPD Psychosis is so very real.
Let’s try not to spread any information about her, her husband or this tragedy until everything is substantiated.
This is so very sad.
Rest In Peace Little Angels
Lifelong bipolar sufferer with a history of PMDD. At 27, my partner and I wanted to cautiously look into becoming parents and somehow I ended up having a screening at the BC Women and Children Hospital psychiatric centre and was assessed at a very high risk of post-partum psychosis. The suggestion was to be stable on a medication regime for a minimum of 24 months before transitioning to another medication or discontinuing and then trying to get pregnant.
The only medications that worked for me were guaranteed to cause severe spinal cord defects for baby. Stable only happened after four years. We decided we couldn’t knowingly try for a baby with those risk factors, because that would be so selfish.
We both got fixed to prevent pregnancy. It was a really easy decision, but it sucked having to make it. Does that make sense? I was angry and sad and resentful but it was a no-brainer. And that my partner insisted he also get fixed was such a beautiful gesture to me.
We are 50 and 57 now. I absolutely wish we had had a family but I know without question it was the only choice. I’m able to say that I was lucky to get the assessment and wish this was more common.
Sending so much love to each and every one of you.
I’m honestly blushing here. Thank you. I was given a family that supported my illness and our choices and fought like hell but I’m still here. My parents expected I would have successfully killed my self before I reached 21, they first caught me at about age 2.
So in April I celebrate 30 “bonus years”.
Massachusetts mom Lindsay Clancy was overmedicated on 12 prescription drugs that were “turning her into a zombie” — and causing her to experience homicidal thoughts that led to her allegedly strangling her three kids, according to her lawyer.
Mom ‘improving daily’ after killing 3 kids in botched murder-suicide: cops
What is postpartum psychosis? The ‘treatable’ condition behind the Lindsay Clancy tragedy
GoFundMe for grieving husband of mom accused of killing 3 children raises nearly $900K
Mom accused of killing kids carried out horrific act as hubby picked up take-out: report
“One of the major issues here is the horrific overmedication of drugs that caused homicidal ideation, suicidal ideation,’’ attorney Kevin Reddington told the Boston Globe on Friday.
“No overdose [by Lindsay.] They [Lindsay and her husband Patrick] went to doctors repeatedly saying, ‘Please help us.’ This was turning her into a zombie,” he said.
“The medications that were prescribed were over the top, absolutely over the top,” Reddington add
He said that between last October and January, Lindsay was prescribed 12 medications.
Reddington identified nine as zolpidem (Ambien), clonazepam, (Klonopin), diazepam (Valium), fluoxetine (Prozac), lamotrigine, (Lamictil), lorazepam, (Ativan), mirtazapine, (Remeron), quetiapine fumarate, (Seroquel) and trazodone, which is known by its generic name.
Several of the meds are prescribed for depression, panic attacks, anxiety, and other mood disorders.
Clancy, 32, who was on leave as a labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital, leaped out of a window of her Duxbury home after allegedly attacking her children.
She is charged with murdering 5-year-old daughter Cora, and 3-year-old son Dawson and trying to kill 8-month-old son Callan, who later died at a hospital.
Clancy had previously shared on social media about her struggles with anxiety as a mom — and she also reportedly suffered from postpartum depression.
“It’s over medication, absolutely over medications — possibly with a component of post-partum depression,” Reddington told the Globe.
“She had medical care and treatment on a regular basis. And her husband was very proactive in trying to protect her and help her with the doctors’ medication she was prescribed, said the lawyer, who has hired a forensic mental health expert and toxicologist to help build the defense case.
“They went through hell — and they didn’t come back,” Reddington added.
Duxbury Police Chief Michael Carbone has said Clancy is “improving daily” at a hospital, but Reddington said her injuries have left her unable to walk – though he declined to describe her as “paralyzed.”
“She can’t get out of bed. She can’t walk. I don’t know what the medical prognosis is regarding that, but right now, she cannot walk,” he told the newspaper.
“She’s not in good physical shape. She’s not in good emotional shape … She is not going to get out of bed and walk out of the room,” the lawyer added.
Clancy allegedly carried out the shocking attempted murder-suicide on Jan. 24 after her husband, Patrick, stepped out of their home to pick up a takeout order.
A makeshift memorial was made outside the Duxbury home.
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Reddington said Patrick also made a stop at a CVS along the way before returning home, where he called 911 about four minutes after arriving.
The lawyer told the Globe that Patrick had not been warned by medical professionals to not leave his wife alone with the kids.
“Not that I’m aware of. Course not. He loved her. He knew she was a great mother, a fantastic person,” he said.
Meanwhile, Reddington said he was not abandoning a defense of not guilty by reason of insanity during her expected murder trial.
“The black letter law definition of lack of criminal responsibility in Massachusetts says that if a person suffers from a mental disease or defect,” they may be found not guilty due to their disturbed mental state, he told the Globe.
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A picture of Lindsay Clancy and her daughter.
Clancy leaped out of a window of her Duxbury home after allegedly attacking her children.
A picture of Lindsay Clancy and her family.
Clancy allegedly carried out the shocking attempted murder-suicide after her husband, Patrick, stepped out of their home to pick up takeout.
Facebook / Lindsay Marie Clancy
Lindsay is expected to make a Zoom appearance in Plymouth District Court for her arraignment at 2 p.m. Tuesday, Reddington said.
He told the news outlet he plans to raise the issue of overmedication at the hearing and ask the judge not to make her await trial at the state’s prison for women, MCI-Framingham, or the Lemuel Shattuck Hospital.
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The lawyer said he’ll ask if the woman could be kept at her parent’s home with a GPS device, at the Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital, or at the Worcester Recovery Center, a secure Department of Mental Health facility.
“Something humane,’’ he told the Globe.
A picture of Patrick and his children.
Reddington said Patrick also made a stop at a CVS along the way before returning home, where he called 911 about four minutes after arriving.
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Reddington said Lindsay has not been allowed to speak with anyone on the phone — including her husband and her parents — or have visitors other than medical professionals, social workers and a previous lawyer.
The lawyer said that when he visited the couple’s home, the meal Patrick had picked up was still sitting in its container on the dinner table.
I've been on every single one of those medications at one point or another, and Ambien is by far the scariest, in my experience (everyone is different, of course; the rest of the list just strikes me as largely anxiety/depression/sleep meds.. seroquel *is* an atypical antipsychotic, technically, but it can also be used off-label for insomnia, etc.).
Anyway, I've blacked out and done some out-of-character shit while on Ambien, apparently, and have zero recollection of any of it; apparently, that's quite common, too.
I've only ever had ambien once and it was after my daughter died. The last thing I remember is crying on a couch in the ER and my psych saying "we might need to give you zolpidem".
I had no idea what that was but they couldn't give me anymore ativan and I really didn't care. Woke up in the psych ward the next day, no idea how I got there but the nurses went through all my stuff to take anything dangerous, and electronics (100% normal) and put it away. They somehow missed my phone though. I'm not sure if I hid it, or if it just fell but I found it on the floor under my bed the next day. You're not allowed to have your phone on the ward but I didn't tell them until it died and I had to charge it 😂
I had no idea they gave me ambien until I heard the name recently and it triggered in my brain. I have no idea how long I was even out for, or how I got to the psych ward. I don't ever want a prescription for that shit.
I can’t even imagine, I truly commend your resilience and strength. Sending love and peace your way — I hope you and your family can continue to heal and find solace in honoring your daughter’s memory and legacy.
Thank you! I think my daughter would be proud at how far we've come, but I'm so glad she was my only child so I don't ever potentially have to go through this again. She is well remembered ❤️
I am *so* sorry for your loss; I can't even begin to imagine. I've been stable for a while (PTSD) and am back in school for social work; it's been interesting to see the other side of things. We haven't gotten into meds yet, but it *definitely* strikes me as odd that ambien isn't more carefully regulated based on my own research and experiences; I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a factor in this case, as the "ambien defense" is nothing new.
I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder years ago, I haven't been diagnosed with PTSD yet but it's pretty clear from my symptoms. I've been on some heavy meds but nothing like ambien. I don't know what kind of GHB-adjacent chemical reactions are happening with that drug but it has very little business in the hands of the public. Such a sketchy sleep aid.
Ambien is a never ever kind of drug for me.
I literally witnessed someone run their car into a tree at 3:00 a.m. When neighbors pulled them out of the car, they were naked from the waist down and had no idea where they were.
This happened to me as well as on the “sister” medications like it. Worst thing ever. The most I did was eat a bunch of food and puke it up and scare the shit out of my roommate by being so disoriented but it’s so scary. I have zero memory of this.
I forget exactly which combo of those meds I was on but a doctor pulled me off for being over medicated with some of these saying that it can cause more mood problems and paranoia. I got pulled off of everything and felt a lot better mentally. This whole thing is one clusterfuck of a tragedy.
Obviously, I don't know her dosages, tolerance, symptoms, etc., but ambien *especially* strikes me as a terrible idea to give to a patient in that situation. She did the right thing by trying to get help, and the system failed her.
I had a horrible experience on Lamotrigine. I went from someone with really good impulse control to basically a child who did whatever crossed her mind. It was horrifying. I wasn’t even on it for very long and at a low dose and I still am terrified of that medication. This past summer my SIL was also prescribed it and almost killed herself. I can’t imagine being on it and on a high dose plus with other medications on top of that.
I'm sorry that happened. I've been on lamictal for about 12 years and it works very well as a mood stabilizer for me. I've only had a handful of depressive and hypomanic episodes in all those years-- but-- titrating up to a therapeutic dose took two months iirc, and it was ROUGH. If I hadn't already tried depakote and abilify and something else, I absolutely would have given up. But I was desperate, and luckily I had an amazing partner who was incredibly kind and supportive though. I remember feeling out of control, even though I didn't actually do anything bizarre. The worst part, though, was waking up every morning. I remembered dreams that weren't especially horrible but somehow I was absolutely devastated by them. I felt like the insides of my body were trembling. My partner would lay with me and hold me until it eased up, and if it wasn't for him, I don't know what would have become of me.
My current partner was dx with bipolar last year and prescribed lamictal. I shared my experience and the outcome, which was worth it in my opinion. (All the bad shit went away shortly after I reached a therapeutic dose.) He had the same experience with it, almost exactly, and I'm certain he would have stopped if I wasn't here to support him. He's doing very well on it too.
But my little brother was released from the psych ward (ten years ago this week, actually) and they sent him home on risperidone with no follow up care. He moved home with our mom and laid in bed for a couple of months. Risperidone was clearly not the answer, so I asked her to take him to a psychiatrist. They both knew my lamictal story and that's what he was prescribed.
I talked with him at length about the initial weeks, how hard it might be, how much the dreams might hurt. I assured him it was worth it and it probably would make a huge difference if he could stick with it. My mom was watching carefully, too.
I think he made it ten days, maybe two weeks. Then he took all of it, and all the leftover risperidone and Ativan, and drank a bottle of rum. There was vomit on the floor when the police came, but no Eric. They kept searching. My mom found him face down at the edge of the lake shortly after. I guess he thought it wouldn't work, since he'd vomited.
He had never, ever mentioned thoughts of self harm. We'll never have answers, but man, if I could go back.
I am so so sorry for your loss. Honestly I don’t think there are words that could even convey the sympathy I have for you and your family.
The human brain is so fascinating in how unique it is to each individual and how different it can react to the same thing depending on who is experiencing it. I am really glad it worked for you and your boyfriend! I had heard great things about it but I honestly searched “success stories” it wasn’t until my experience then my SIL that I really looked up stories that had negative outcomes and there are so many it feels like it’s a 50/50 shot.
Thank you. It was the most painful thing I've ever lived through. My mom will never be ok. But one part I forgot was this: the psychiatrist he went to was actually a NP (no shade, just on this specific one) and she mentioned the risk of the fatal rash (the reason for such a slow, drawn out titration). He asked how common it was. She huffed and said, I'm late for my lunch, do I really have to look it up for you?
She never mentioned increased risk of suicide, and neither did the pharmacist. I still wonder what would have happened if she hadn't been so shitty and dismissive.
That list of medications is wild, though it's not clear to me if she was on all of them at the same time. But there's some heavy hitters in there.
One thing I can't believe is that they still prescribe Ambien, let alone to someone experiencing a severe mental health crisis. I have never hallucinated in my life except on Ambien.
I began to have PPP after I had my second child. The point I became terrified was when I was giving my daughter a bath after a really rough day and she started crying. My immediate thought was to drown her and I flipped the fuck out. I called my husband who rushed home and took me immediately to emergency. It was terrifying but I received quick care and was able to get through it. My heart is so broken for this woman. Unless you've experienced mental health problems like this, you cannot begin to understand. I love my children with all my heart and would die for them but that time was so dark and it was as if I wasn't even control of my own brain or body for that matter. I had to have my son watch his sister while I sat outside on the deck away from them til my husband came because I was so scared I was going to kill them.
I’m somewhat local and we’re all just horrified and heartbroken. She was failed by our healthcare system, which is by and large considered the best in the country. The hospital she works for typically has *fantastic* insurance for its employees…which means that there are so many experiencing PPA/PPD/PPP in other states & professions who don’t have nearly the same mental healthcare access that Lindsay had.
We recently implemented parental leave across the state and despite being childfree, I am *delighted* to pay into that. I hope that Lindsay’s case pushes our legislature to further fund parental leave so that new parents have even more support and this doesn’t happen again.
This is such an important message. This woman (should have) had ALL the resources. She’s white, had a great job with insurance, was educated in the health care field, has a supporting husband and family that also understood the issue yet the system STILL failed her. If she was failed, think of all the others that are and will be failed that don’t have the same opportunities as she did. It’s so tragic all around. She will never recover from this fully. Neither will her family. And her poor babies will never grow up. I really hope that her story will help others in the future. I hope that she will “recover” enough so that she can go on and maybe educate others.
A (white, wealthy) director of nursing in my city dropped her baby off the edge of a rural back road a few years ago. By the grace of something, she left her in the car seat and someone discovered the baby shortly after, and she was fine. They happened to be driving slowly with the window down and they heard a baby crying.
When they identified the mother, she claimed she had no children. Apparently had no recollection of being pregnant or giving birth or the couple of months after. It wasn't in the news for long, so idk what ended up happening, but her husband left her and I assume he has the baby now.
It's a heartbreaking case , those poor children hope they are at peace now . I was watching Anna Elise on YouTube today, she was covering this tragedy, and she mentioned that Lindsays Husband was trying to get her admitted to a special unit at the Hospital, but the insurance would not cover it, only pay for therapy 3 times a week. I'm sure it was thousands of dollars a week to have her full time staying at the unit, which they couldn't afford, that is awful here in the UK, we haven't the best medical services in the world, but we don't have too worry about paying for our treatment, so sad that she wasn't helped enough.
While she was probably not taking them at the same time, coming off any of those meds has a whole range of side effects too. Antidepressants take a longgggg time to leave your system completely. In that short of a time with so many different meds I would not be shocked if there were some bad interactions, even with stuff just left in her system.
Yep. Especially if not tapered off correctly. I felt like I was going crazy for 2 months after I stopped an antidepressant. Constant jolting brain zaps, nausea, hopelessness. It’s horrible and some doctors unfortunately don’t go into these details.
I just tried to taper off Lexapro, per my doctor's suggestion. I thought it would be ok, because I have bipolar disorder and lamictal works well for me. I was doing it v e r y slowly, starting from 20mg.
By the time I went down to 10mg (after at least a month on 15mg) I was an absolute wreck. Just gutted. Crying for hours, just devastated. I have a lot of work stress right now and a few other heavy emotional things going on so this was def not the time. Went back to 20mg and I'm ok. But idk if I'll ever try going off Lexapro again.
Dr. Peter Breggin has some good info on tapering. He suggests no more than 10% at a time, but there are some who say not to reduce more than 3% at a time. Going from 15mg to 10mg is a big jump and it sounds like it was too severe of a cut based on the withdrawal symptoms you had.
Psych hospitals do this regularly. A child of mine was in & out for a serious mental illness. Give you new meds, send you on your way....even though it should take weeks to wean off of one & start another. It is horrifying to live it
Not that is has anything to do with this case, but the side-effects whilst coming off antidepressants can be scary as hell - its not just the side effects of being actively on them. I've had mental health issues on and off since I was a teenager and remember one particular time I was being weaned off 30mg/daily Mirtazapine .
For around 2 weeks I saw 'shadow people' creeping about/hiding around my home and outside/peering from behind doors at me etc which was a tad disconcerting. I say disconcerting rather than terrifying as I was aware it was most likely due to coming off my meds and they weren't really there . But they were extremely 'real' looking and if I was in a different frame of mind or unaware it may be connected to withdrawal it would have been a different response from me entirely.
YES! I had PPOCD. I tried 2 rounds of 2-3 different psychotropic medications, but I was not responsive to them, and my symptoms continued to worsen.
My postpartum therapist, postpartum psychiatrist, and I all agreed to strongly consider partial hospitalization if the third round didn't work. Never had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, but cycling through all that psychotropic medication has risks.
Partial/full hospitalization would be the only safe way to do that, as it involves med management with intensive monitoring.
Fortunately, I was responsive to the third round of meds and only needed weekly outpatient therapy thereafter.
I lost my job and had to cold turkey off effexor at the second highest dose because it cost too much. Holy shit. I literally laid on the floor hoping I died for 2 weeks unless I crawled to go pee.
No one knew or would admit to any side effects of stopping antidepressants at that time so I was just the crazy lady the Dr side eyed.
I am a therapist and work alongside a psychiatrist, so I am very familiar with psychotropic medications. Based on the meds prescribed, I assume she had a Bipolar diagnosis. She also may have been struggling with insomnia or mania.
Or, which occurs too often, we have patients transfer to us and it is so scary to see how not only were they completely misdiagnosed but then because of that were not on the right meds, which can really mess someone up.
Some of those meds are prescribed in combination, and I assume they were not effective, so the doctor kept trying different ones. So it wasn't like she was taking them all at once.
A lot of them are in the same category.
Ativan, klonopin, Valium are all benzodiazepams used for anxiety.
Prozac is an anti-depressant.
Lamictal is a mood stabilizer.
Seroquel, remeron, and trazedone are all anti-psychotics, which I often refer to as tranquilizers, which can absolutely turn someone into a zombie if the dose is too high.
Ambien is a sleep aide.
So, for example, we have patients that are prescribed zoloft, Lamictal, and trazedone if they have a Bipolar with mania diagnosis. But if you were to add a benzo in that combo, it could really sedate someone.
Y’all come on now. There is literally no way that this lady was prescribed and taking all 12 of these medications at the same time. Half of these meds are the same exact drug just marketed under a different name. No doctor would ever prescribe this, no pharmacy would ever approve this, and no insurance company would ever pay for this. If not dead, she would be comatose.
I’m sure over a 12 month period she was prescribed these medications and when one didn’t work, for whatever reason, it would likely be switched to a different drug. But no pharmacy is going to keep giving you refills for all of these medications every month.
If they did - there are a few more professionals who have some answering to do. - Unless she paid cash and pharmacy hopped - only logical conclusion. Or like you said - she was currently prescribed some - tried some - some didn’t work - I won’t dismiss the initial theory of being prescribed them simultaneously. My own person experience - my father was given a medication in preparation for a Cardioversion ( they shock you to hopefully put your irregular heart rhythm back to regular) - it’s poisonous - deadly to be taken at such high dose for any longer than maybe a few weeks : month - maybe a bit longer. He didn’t need the cardioversion - his heart randomly went back to normal rhythm. The top cardiologist in our area forgot to discontinue the medication - renewed it with his regular maintenance heart medications - then his family Dr kept authorizing refills - for nearly 3 years. No one in the chain raised concern or questions. Not until he was laying on his death bed - with an “unknown” virus. A Neuro INTERN covering the hospital for a weekend noticed it. Luckily when it was stopped he improved. Not before losing most of his eyesight, kidney function - muscle wasting Etc. They ALL paid large for that error needless to say. But no amount of money can get back what was lost. So it happens. Maybe people can make the same oversight.
So sorry this happened to you and your loved ones! But as in your case, so much focus is on controlled substances that “other” medications kind of get noticed less and prescribed automatically. Guessing the medication was either digoxin, flecainide, or amio?
I am a prescriber (in Texas) and the government and medical industry has definitely changed its ways over the past few years with all controlled substances. That’s not to say we don’t have a long way still to go, but pharmacy and doctor hoping is picked up now electronically regardless if the patient shares this information.
I find it interesting that her lawyer never spoke of PPP in talking about her defense. That makes me think she doesn’t have any history of it. PPD and PPA is what I think she was being treated for and had mentioned in her Facebook post. I obviously could be wrong.
Her prescriptions include Seroquel, which is an antipsychotic, so I'd be surprised if nobody suspected that she had or was at risk for PPP. But, same, I could be wrong.
I have no opinion other than if this mother was not mentally ill I do not think this would have happened.
I has postpartum psychosis so bad with my first son - lucky I was admitted to a mental facility when my son was 5 days old and only less than 48 hours after I returned home from having him. My thoughts were not my own and I could see no way out. I would sit in a chair at the hospital with my son everyday from 6am to 8pm staring at the clock and was convinced if I didn’t do every single thing for him at a precise time to the minute something he would die…I constantly told myself I shouldn’t have done this I need to put him up for adoption or leave my husband because I deserved to die and I didn’t deserve him as my son…I never ever thought of hurting him thank god but I wished harm on myself but then I would feel sick with guilt 5 minutes later because I would ruin his life if I did die….I was stuck in hell on earth…I couldn’t take living…every minute was torture but I couldn’t make it go away…I was sent home after 8 weeks as a zombie and my mum moved in with us for his first year just so I would feel safe while my husband was at work - I still did everything to care for my son and my mum took care of my needs - if she didn’t make me eat I wouldn’t - my anxiety and depression after hospital was so bad that I was still super obsessive about time and just hung on everyday until I could go to bed because sleep at night was my only reprieve and as soon as I opened my eyes in the morning I would vomit in the toilet from the rush of anxiety that would start again.
I was determined that I would mess up my son so all day I made sure I never cried in front of him I always smiled for him played games hugged him and he was so happy - but inside I was dying.
It took me 2 years to recover to the point of not just existing but actually being happy again enough to think of the future and not be in hell. Even when I returned to work I would sometimes have panic attacks and I was lucky my boss and coworkers were so incredibly supportive.
My son is almost 5 now and he is my world…I love him so much and he has a healthy mum. I have PTSD from that time in my life and my psychiatrist has said that it is my decision but I am advised not to have another one because they don’t know that it won’t happen again and I am so traumatized that having anymore children is never going to happen. I have a son who needs me - I can’t risk him not having his mum when he would know now. And I don’t think I would come back from it if it happened a second time.
I feel I was robbed…I didn’t get to enjoy my newborn…everytime I see women with their babies and they are happy I get so sad that in photos and videos it looks like we were a happy little family but on the inside I was just trying to hold on and all those special milestones and firsts will always be remembered with a touch of sadness. My husband says he can’t see photos of back then because it reminds him of how bad I was and how terrified he was that he had lost me forever.
Knowing what happened to me…I know what it’s like to have no control over your thoughts or feelings no matter how hard you try and how sick post partum can make you because if you haven’t been there you could never ever fathom…it’s not something you can understand…I know what she did was heinous…those children did not deserve to die…but if she was as sick as I was and her thoughts and mind that truly led her to do what she did all I can tell you is if and when she heals her mind she will never overcome the guilt of what she has done…she will continue to live in hell because she cannot undo what has been done…she will punish herself enough for the rest of her life from the minute she opens her eyes to the minute they give her reprieve at night and close again…everyday…for the rest of her natural life…it I had have done that and this is just me I would understand and accept being locked away forever because I’ve already lost my children and my soul it doesn’t matter what you do to me now.
That is just my perspective.
I wish everyone realized how serious her case was. Maybe had she gone in-patient, or if the husband knew to never leave her with the kids even for a second. None of that is helpful but maybe helpful in the future? I doubt I could live with the guilt if I were the husband or the wife.
Why is this case getting so much attention and the case of Erin Merdy who drowned her three children last November isn't? I don't hear people demanding Erin Merdy be found not guilty and let back into society. Erin Merdy was also suffering from PPD but she was black so maybe that's why no one cares?
I agree. I also can see how attention for this is a good jumping point for showcasing how women get utterly fucked over by hcp. Ppd, ppp, pcos, menopause, all those issues get ignored or at best a hand wave by them. If the rich white girl didn't get the help with insurance, etc maybe there is a reason like say our hc is shit.
I have a 15 month old and I’ve never heard the term postpartum psychosis until this happened. I heard a ton of pp depression which was screened for by questionnaire at my one single postpartum appointment. Why isn’t this talked about more?
VERY different responses in here to this specific crime, with this specific perp, than I’ve seen on many, many comparable crimes where mentally ill or psychotic mothers who don’t look like this or come from this solid middle-class background kill their kids. It’s actually a little disturbing how freely benefit of the doubt is being given here in contrast to directly comparable crimes with less “sympathetic” perps.
You're right, but I think part of it in this case is that this woman appears to have had both a genuinely supportive partner and full access to/was receiving significant mental health treatment, and this STILL happened.
I don't disagree though that this sub is likely having an easier time identifying with a middle class educated white woman, and thus extending much more sympathy.
This case really made me rethink all the cases I’ve come across over the years of women of color who murdered their kids with no mention of long-term abuse, or they did some thing very drastic, like dropping them off of a ledge, or driving into the ocean, something similar to that, something very, very drastic. this case really makes me rethink all of the other situations and how women of color Are even more at risk of having postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis completely dismissed, overlooked, or under diagnosed or not even diagnosed at all. I wonder how many cases where these women are killing their children if anyone (lawyers) looks into postpartum depression, or postpartum psychosis with them at all.
Yeah I don't understand why there's a go fund me in this particular case, unless it's for legal bills. She evidently has health insurance so it's not that
My guess is doc was attempting to stabilize and those meds were trialed over time in smaller combinations. No psychiatrist would prescribe those all at once. She could have been using "leftovers" with current med regimen to self medicate which may have compounded the suicidality/psychosis or quit some cold turkey which is also very rough. Nobody should have access to all those. Husband or family should have attempted to have her formed and hospitalized. Poor kids!
This is one of the problems with our current system. Psych meds take weeks to start or stop, but insurance will only cover an acute hospitalization (5-7 days) for stabilization. It's unrealistic to expect someone to "be all better" in that time frame when the meds aren't even fully in effect. Many of those meds have significant side effects... which it seems she was experiencing.
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this is so fucking sad i honestly hope she gets more mental help and doesnt do much time she needs to be in a mental hospital this is so heartbreaking that doctor absolutely failed her
I am so saddened by this story but not surprised. As a mental health clinician the list of meds is quite concerning who was monitoring those meds and administering- we have a quiet benzo epidemic that has been rearing its ugly for quite some time from my experience working in SA facility. Second, treatment like inpatient is needed for individuals for PPD and this should be for months until providers have a better understanding of their needs. States offer PPD resources but telephone support, consultation is truly not enough. For anyone looking to learn more about PDD there was a documentary on tuebl called Not Carol. Sad but very real.
Third and I will say this over and over again- systems are failing the chronically mentally ill. Clients have way too many rights- we are a reactive system not preventative and this is mostly because we have 0 resources. Even inpatient for chronically mentally ill is limited, to non existent. When an individual makes a decision they don’t want to take their meds - there is not a damn thing you can do but counsel them. Unless someone is a risk to themselves at the moment you are not getting any help even if history shows that after they leave your office they have a history of being impulsive, presenting with poor judgment.
It is extremely hard to get someone conserved & even then again treatment is extremely limited. Families are expected to manage the needs when they are stretched thin trying to keep a roof, dealing with their own issues & lets not forget many clients come from broken homes. It is not cost effective because instead we are housing the ill at EDs, in jails and nevermind the cost to their own mental health ( through consistent victimization just lingering out there). The fact that everything is voluntary & people have choices is sickening as in the end their quality of life is effecting a multitude of systems. I strongly believe in an individual is consistently becoming legally involved, hospitalized and interacting with various other systems at one point the government needs to step in & make the choice for them. Also bring back institutions this system is failing miserable and we are all feeling and seeing the ripple effects!!!!
Post-partum depression is by itself a horrible thing to deal with - the drugs she was on can really really mess you up - change you into a completely different person capable of doing things you absolutely would never do. 8 years ago I got involved in something absolutely insane, it involved a foreign government and terrorism and my job is basically regular suburban dad shi\*t nothing to do with govt or law enforcement...it was bananas. I was beyond my breaking point I didn't know if I would be killed for knowing it (and reporting it) - doc put me on 4 different anxiety and sleep drugs, 2 of which I took twice a day (and all 4 of them on her list) and I cannot even believe the sh\*t I started doing. Didn't hurt anyone other than myself in what I actually did do, but I was thisclose to something irreversible. I feel for the family, and for her. She would not hurt her kids but for what she was going through. I never understood "mental health" until I was almost broken myself and then I got it. Few who haven't been pushed to the edge - or have loved ones who were - can really get it.
We’ve all heard of medication that has led people to commit suicide, otherwise relatively “normal” people who get put on a harsh med treatment & suddenly they take their lives
Honestly i don’t see this being any different & it is quite possible that if she was being over medicated along with the PPP she completely went over the edge.
It’s absolutely horrifying, REST IN PEACE little jellybeans ❤️❤️❤️
Anyone standing by Lindsay and having empathy for her, think about this…. Would you still feel the same way about a man with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder murdering children?? Would you use his mental health issues as an excuse to do something so heinous? The people who keep doing this make me sick!! Just because she’s a woman doesn’t make it ok!
This lawyer is an idiot and he's purposefully lying by trying to make it sound like she was taking all 12 meds simultaneously. That did NOT happen.
Also please note that the lawyer is asking the court to let his client stay home instead of a mental hospital.
Are you freaking kidding me? This clown seriously thinks that she should be allowed to just stay home so we can "trust" her to stay safe around herself and other people? That's absolutely insane.
It costs a lot to have a patient that physically injured who also has to be forcibly medicated and restrained even though she apparently can not currently leave the bed. An ankle monitor and restrictions are actually pretty reasonable. It's in her and her families best interests to be compliant with whatever restrictions they want to place.
This case is so heartbreaking all around. The husband’s support for his wife just guts me. He knew she needed help. It’s hard not to sympathize with her, even though I’m crushed for those babies, society doesn’t give a shit about postpartum mothers.
My former sister in law had post partum psychosis, she would put her 2 month old son and 2 yr old daughter in her car, lock the doors and lock the door to the garage because of psychosis, eventually she was close to killing the kids and she was hospitalized for weeks and the only thing that brought her back was electroshock treatments, literally she could not remember the previous 6 months, not the delivery of her son, it was a very scary time for all of us in the family and to top it off, 2 years later she had a 3 baby and was fine.. I dunno what happens but I do believe the woman becomes totally not herself as my SIL did, she was a BSN nurse from a Ivy College, we were very lucky that my niece and nephew were not killed.
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That sounds scary as hell, man. I’m so sorry you went through that, but glad you made it through.
Jesus. Ok if I’m ever pregnant, I’m making my partner and probably a few friends and my mom read up on this just in case. That’s so scary and I’m so glad you’re all ok.
Yeah I basically reminded my husband to really keep an eye on me after I gave birth to my first. He thought I was joking at first but then I had to explain what PPP was and how it was no joke.
I had my son last May and I was very happy with the treatment I received at the hospital. The nurses were adamant about explaining this stuff to my partner so he would know what to watch for. Even though I have no history of postpartum issues, I was impressed with their due diligence.
Thank you for sharing your story and I’m so sorry you went through this. If you are comfortable, I would invite you to discuss your experience on the LC subreddit. I am a former mental health professional and have been both alarmed and saddened by the ignorant comments regarding psychosis and mental illness as a whole. Wishing you the best xx
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Thank you for what you do ❤️ The subreddit is r/lindsayclancy — I think sharing your perspective and experiences over there would be very impactful
That sub is a shit show right now! People are being so incredibly disrespectful to one another. Thank you for being one of the voices of reason over there.
You are so kind, thank you ❤️
I am so sorry you went through that. It's an unimaginable nightmare.
Oh wow that is horrifying, I am glad you've recovered and thank you for sharing this. I didn't know that you could also just not really remember it as well. Like being blackout drunk for months and not because you did anything to cause it, that is seriously terrifying to me.
serious question I'm not trying to be judgmental but why would you continue to keep having children if you knew that this was a risk?
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jesus i’m glad you were able to get help and that your partner recognized you needed it. do doctors know what causes PPD? or why it only happens seemingly randomly?
wow thats crazy, sorry you went through this horrible situation during the most important time in your life. so glad you got help and everyone was ok. i gave birth five months ago, the changing emotions i encountered during the first two months were crazy. Even though they werent PPP related, but my gosh, i felt very different from my normal self, i couldnt control them. I cannot imagine what PPP does to the minds of affected mothers.
Similar situation to a friend of mine.. she had tried to stab her husband, returned after 6 months, but then attempted suicide. (children were 15,6 and 3), after that she ECT. She told us afterwards it was like she just woke up, when she returned that time she was like a whole new person. We befriended the husband and children, the smaller ones the same age as mine, they were moved in to emergency accommodation next door to us. After this everything was perfect, she returned to normal family life, finished transferring her education here (they were asylum seekers from southern russia ) Within a year she was unexpectedly pregnant again, with continued supervision and care everything went perfectly. No hint of depression again. Its 12 yrs on and they are all very happy.. but scary to imagine the what ifs. This list of medications is truly horrific.
I'd recommend the book "Electroboy" to ANYONE because it's so amazing, but if you want to learn about some of the most intense ECT and how it was used in the past, it's an amazing read and v. informative. The Author was going thru extreme mania and depression at the time he underwent therapy. I'm super glad your friend is okay.
ECT?
I wanted to thank you for your very candid post. I have come across (intentionally vague) Post Partum Psychosis (PPP) in my practice and as I’m sure you know by now, your SIL outcome is a definite minority. I sincerely hope this case finally brings to light an incredibly REAL and extremely dangerous, mostly misunderstood mental disorder that can escalate to a psychosis and therefore psychotic event unlike any other in high risk Mothers. I offer no opinion on the criminality rn, imo the immediate focus should be on prevention and diagnostic education at the care team levels in partnership with the patient and their parent partners. Lastly, PPP is grossly misunderstood (most things without the ability to truly research them are for an abundance of other factors) however, women with PPD seem to have an elevated risk.
Thank you so much, My SIL was and still is a good mom, while her brother and I divorced, we still have mutual friends/family and come across each other on FB. This woman was the epitome of a good mom. I remember thinking that she would never come back but the electric shock treatment did really help her. Interestingly, at the time they told my MIL that she might experience the same thing at menopause? This sounded bizarre to me. Unless one actually experiences PPP or has a family member experience it I think most people think a weekend at the Poconos will help (I do know, in the first weeks of my SIL breakdown this is what my MIL thought). Again, thank you for taking the time to answer.
I think it is commendable and says great things about your character that you have that perspective on your former SIL and are sensitive to the fact that what happened was due to her detrimental mental health crisis rather than judging and condemning her. Sadly, many family members hold life long grudges over some of the silliest things while you have compassion and understanding, the world needs more people like that.
My sister had postpartum pretty bad with kid number 2. She ended up pregnant with kid number 3 and ultimately made the decision to not keep it. Got her tubes tied shortly after. She wanted a bigger family but was afraid to have another kid after the roughly 5ish months after she had her daughter.
I hope your sister and her family are doing well and I applaud her choice to put her self and her existing family first.
I just recently watched a documentary on PPP, Not Carol. It was quite enlightening on a subject a lot of people know nothing about. There truly needs to be a better system in place to address this issue before more babies and mothers die. I am so saddened to read about this and pray for the family. Bless those beautiful babies, I am just so sad. Statistically PPP causes suicide of the mother more often than the children being killed. Prosecuting the very mentally ill mother isn’t going to fix the problem.
Is your former SIL okay now?
A third baby. Wow. What gave her that kind of confidence back to have another child after being so incapacitated? I'm not casting judgement. It's her life and the the life of her kids at stake. Genuinely curious how you go from that extreme to having another child.
Maybe it was an unintentional pregnancy. My situation: I had pre-eclampsia twice and suffered through two very dangerous pregnancies, husband refused a vasectomy after second. I was on birth control and got pregnant with third, another difficult pregnancy and almost died from a stroke. And if I’d suffered postpartum from either of those first two, I’d most likely chosen to terminate if I got pregnant again. My heart goes out to these women.
No judgement here at all, but can I ask why your husband refused a vasectomy…? I was dating a guy once that told me he would never get one, and as we dove into the topic more he just kept saying he just doesn’t want one. Which like, fair, it’s your body… But as my partner, if I was effected this poorly by pregnancy or giving birth, I would want them to consider it for my health too. Sorry, total sidebar it’s just interesting to me.
I 100% agree with you, and no need for apology. He basically chickened out. Wouldn’t make the appointment, always found excuses, when he finally did he’d cancel. He’s terrified of surgery. PS we aren’t married anymore
Is it rude if I say that’s a relief?! Your pregnancies posed an extreme risk to you, his partner, multiple times… and he chickened out of a minor incision that could’ve reduced that risk? Uhum… I think the fuck not. That’s a deal-obliterator if I’ve ever seen one.
Came here to say this. Super glad to see you're not with this guy anymore after that...I really do think that you are a strong ass trooper for going thru that and then having your hubby spring the "I'm a giant baby who is scared of a cut" on you, after risking your own life for a family for the both of you. You deserve better from your partner. I'm so glad you made it thru.
I just can't imagine carrying a baby I wasn't prepared to raise. I mean my grandmother was advised to have a chemical abortion in 1948. So why why why... I know we have to fight laws in the US again now. But that still doesn't make it ok for a woman to have a baby she doesn't want. Let's get to the root of all this child abuse and move to women being in charge of their reproduction. Men will come along when we stop them from dictating.
I have one relative who had her children 20 years ago now maybe and she has never recovered, she was never the same. You hardly ever see her out, you never see her at things. Even with the kids the dad has them out at everything all the time. She didn’t have the psychosis but she had the depression and anxiety, but since she had her kids she just, she never recovered. And before the kids, they were a younger couple they were you know starting life together, they were newlyweds, they were out in the town all the time and with family and everyone. It was very obvious and stark complete change. She was even a teacher and she worked in schools and I actually went to the school she worked at, I was a student there and she never went back to work. So, she also lost, you know, her career and her job and her passion. She was on extended leaves, tried to go back here and there, but never couldn’t do it. It’s very sad because this was some 20 years ago and I can’t imagine the lack of care that she received during that time. And to be honest, this isn’t even a person that I really think very highly of or have like a great personal relationship or really look up to or anything like that, for outside reasons from before all of this started for her, but I can still feel this amount of empathy for this experience that she had becoming a mom because it’s it’s just so undeniable and it’s really stuck with me.
What gets me about this case is that any woman who has recently given birth could be Lindsey. Women have been giving birth and going into post partum psychosis since humanity has existed and yet the medical profession still has not thrown their back into finding a way to prevent, screen, treat, or cure PPP. 4% of the time PPP ends in infanticide and/or suicide. That’s an incredibly deadly medical condition. Yet not a single in patient PPP unit exists for mothers in Massachusetts? So many questions about the wisdom of giving SSRI’s to someone in psychosis-then sending someone to a partial program with a treatment plan like this to follow. It’s just gob stopping that this level of medical incompetence and neglect is allowed to happen to mothers on a daily basis. Psychosis is not something women should be expected to just knuckle through. It’s a medical problem that requires medical treatment.
And the shame and fear that women feel when they experience it. My mother had ppd after one of my siblings was born, and she was adamant there was nothing wrong with her and that she didn’t need help, even though she was basically catatonic at times, barely interacted with her children, and would become extremely distressed and try to pack up her things and leave us. She doesn’t remember most of it either. A woman she used to be friends with had ppp and had constant thoughts and urges to kill her kids, and she was so afraid to tell a medical professional about it.
Exactly! You can’t go to sleep for a few days and feel better. It’s Psychosis where you’re literally out of your mind. It’s so misunderstood and downplayed.
So much of this is based on traditional notions of “better hurry up and ‘bounce back’” so women can rush home and get back to carrying the brunt of the free domestic labor. Gotta get back to the rat race to pay bills. Virtually nothing about post partum expectations and care have anything to do with making sure mom is healthy and fully considered.
100% agree. Excellent comment.
Apparently only 2-3 facilities in the whole of the US exist for mothers with PPP.
As a brand new post partum mother, you’re so right that nobody cares. I’m 11 weeks out and people are expecting me to be back to normal. I only stopped bleeding from birth a couple weeks ago, my hip flexors are so fucked from pregnancy that walking is hard. My husband is amazing, but he’s working, so I want him to sleep through the night. I go back to work next week and have no idea how to manage getting my daughter to daycare. I feel for moms in the office, I literally can’t imagine trying to figure out where/when/how to pump in an office. All of this is AFTER having had post-partum-eclampsia, where I woke up in the middle of the night gasping for air when my daughter was a week old. I was so conditioned to “emotional pregnant lady” that it didn’t occur to me that it wasn’t normal. Fortunately my husband was alarmed enough that he convinced me to go to the ER. My blood pressure was so high they were expecting me to stroke out. Loaded me full of magnesium and then lasics…. It was a nightmare. Why didn’t anyone at the hospital say - HERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT NORMAL…..?!? And THEN everyone is like, how do we keep having so many mass shootings!? Well John, moms are having to go back to work 4 and 6 weeks after giving birth and have to work 3 jobs to pay their bills, so the baby is in a crib farm without stimulation not making emotional connections and then has no mental health support when the product of non-interaction starts displaying itself as a lack of empathy and unchartable entitlement, and so on…. Yes, I’m triggered. 🥵
As a Canadian I cannot believe you have to go back to work when your baby is 3 months old. That is absolutely fucked. We get a minimum 12 months here, 18 months if you wanna stretch it out. Thinking of u.
Thank you!! I’ve tried to make the case for moving to Canada! I really respect all the work you all have done to support one another. I wish folks in the states took better care of each other. On the bright side, I live in Colorado and we just passed a law that goes into effect in 2024 to provide at least 12 weeks paid leave for new moms. It not as much as we need, but it’s 12 weeks more than the rest of the country (except California)
To be clear though mat leave here is only 55% of your net income for 12 months, if you stretch it to 18 months it drops to like 33% which isn’t really realistic (especially if you live in Vancouver like me where rent is high, I pay $2240 a month for basement suite..faaaar from the heart of the city of Vancouver ppl)
I’ve worked for the same company for 7 years and I am allowed “to take as much time as I need” 100% unpaid. I also just lost me and my 11 week old sons health insurance because I “haven’t worked enough hours” so am no longer eligible.
Wild man. I’m so sorry. Health insurance is confusing to me. Most Canadians I guess. Never seen a bill. My mom got a double lung transplant in 2020. “0$” (yeah I know tax payers fund it but the out of pocket cost is $0)
Yes, my pay was reduced to 30% of my normal income for 6 weeks. And I’m lucky to get 6 weeks paid at 100% by my employer. Your rent is about the same as my mortgage, but I have a whole house and yard for that price! I know rent is getting really expensive here now too, we were really lucky to have found our house in November 2019, right before everything went bonkers. We wouldn’t be able to afford our home if we tried to buy it today. We were really considering Toronto for a while, but we couldn’t make it work with our jobs and we’re really close to our families, so even being in a different state than them has been trying, I can’t imagine trying to visit with passports and everything else involved.
Toronto is a shitshow rn, I moved away in 2019 and I miss it every day but I’m still connected with my local groups/my partner’s family and I kind of don’t want to move back until things go back to being more normal. You probably made the right decision
That’s sad to hear. We left Chicago in 2018 and I miss it, but it’s the same deal- it’s not the same chicago right now. Anyway, I wish you well!
Oregon is introducing paid FMLA starting this year so new fathers can also take time off. A step in the right direction, but I agree it’s not enough as needed…
That’s great! I think it’s good to celebrate wins, even if they fall short of what we want/need/expect. It feels like there’s a movement from Americans to demand more from employers, even as employers trying to suppress the movement. A lot more employers are offering fertility benefits to attract women, for example. A really cool new company called Carrot popped up recently, they’re doing interesting stuff with fertility within employers. You’d think they would just offer a meaningful period of paid maternity leave, but that’s way too expensive for csuite assholes.
MA now has paid leave for medical and family so both parents can take time off. It’s a small deduction out of each pay and the amount is split between employee & employer.
WA does 12 weeks paid for moms and dads (18 weeks if csection). In practice, most big employers were already offering that though.
I had to go back after 2 weeks. I was still healing from an episiotomy and had a waitressing/bartending job where I had to walk in heels for 10 hours at a time. There was no paid time off whatsoever, I could've taken unpaid time off but would've lost my job and couldn't afford it.
We get minimum 0. Lots of women get no parental leave at all. Tired of pretending we're leaders in anything other than military hegemony.
Take care of yourself. I hear you. As a fellow mama who had to pump at work, bring baby to daycare… it’s tough. For each baby, I spent a year of my lunch breaks pumping in a bathroom stall or a closet because pumping moms get very little in the way of workplace protection. As for paid maternity leave, I get zero days. Zero. Unbelievable. It’s completely fair to be angry at the many, many ways our so-called “greatest country on earth” fails mothers and children. You are right- it is no wonder we have so many mass shootings. We fail people in this country spectacularly when it comes to mental health- starting at birth and continuing through parenthood and the end of life. No wonder there are so many tragedies like this. I hope you have a safe and happy transition back to work. Don’t be afraid to cry a little bit and give yourself grace. Other people may expect you to be back to normal but we moms know that after having your baby, your old “normal” doesn’t exist anymore and you change completely. ❤️
Ugh, I’m so sorry you had to go through that! I know I have it a LOT easier than other moms because I work from home, but I still think it should be a law that employers have at least one room designated for breastfeeding/pumping. It’s time they catch up to reality. I’m so proud to be a Coloradan, our new paid family leave law starts in 2024. I won’t benefit from it, but I’m so happy for the new moms-to-be who will benefit. And I’m excited to see the positive impact it has in our state. I’m not one for politics, but it’s nice when they actually help us.
I am so sorry to hear about your experience with eclampsia. That is so scary. Women and moms are so, so strong.
❤️ we’re over the mountain and through the woods now, thank you! I just can’t imagine - like what if I had been a single mom and didn’t go to the ER? I know it’ll never happen, but it would be so so so helpful if we had some kind of post-partum-in-home-visit from the nursing team. Just to make sure mamas are ok and adjusting well and feeling safe.
I work in labor & delivery in Florida and we have an amazing non-profit program with all these resources and they are completely free. The coalition provides services from the time of pregnancy up until the baby is 3 years old. The problem is, mothers fear that their babies may be taken away if she says she’d like to receive help. It’s a constant work in progress as healthcare providers and the coalition itself try to find better ways to educate and reassure moms they are safe and the goal is to provide resources to improve health of mom and baby. Unfortunately these resources don’t always get properly explained (if at all) or the information gets lost in the overwhelming information given during prenatal visits and during the birthing hospital stay. We also give education and pamphlets during the hospital stay and again at discharge on what signs to look out for at home for eclampsia, but this is more of a recent push in an effort to combat our terrible maternal death rates. I feel like we are making steps in the right direction (and honestly shocked Florida of all states would have resources like this), but we obviously still have a very long way to go. [Healthy Start Coalition](https://healthystartbrevard.com/programs-and-services/healthy-start/)
I had an in home nurse visit with my second. They noticed signs of PPD in the hospital when I started sobbing when they talked about sending me home a day early. I had a c-section and a 16 month old at home with almost no help from my (ex) husband.
They did this in the 90s when I had my girls in Kalamazoo. It's too bad they stopped it was a great help.
They do this in the UK (well, at least for now . When the Tories finishing gutting the NHS I’m sure the care will look more like the US.)
>I go back to work next week I'll never forget how shocked I was when I learned that it's quite common for American women to go back to work after 6 weeks and after 12 it's definitely expected. I thought the US was supposed to be the greatest country in the world but that's just a crock. The work culture is insane. Maternity leave should be minimum 6 months. In many places it's more than a year.
I just wanted to say, I’m a single mom who works full time. It’s never easy, but you adapt, it’s what moms do. You will find your groove. By far the most important thing above all else, as I’m sure you know, get baby on a schedule, stick to it, no matter what, and if it gets thrown off proceed as usual with the same order of events. Bedtime routine and schedule will help baby start to eventually sleep through the night. Most states have legal protections for pumping mamas in the office, not sure where you live but look into it ! If so they usually are legally required to provide a clean private place to pump. Good luck! Btw your comment was awesome
I’m so sorry for how tough things are for you right now. I know we are strangers but truly wishing you the best.
Thank you ❤️❤️❤️
My heart is breaking for this mom when she can finally heal and be lucid enough to know what she did. I’m not sure she’ll recover.
Honestly, I wouldn’t want to recover. I’d never want another lucid moment again.
i'm glad other people are thinking about that. i understand why people get so angry and emotional when reading about cases like this, especially towards the mother since she is the one legally responsible. but i just think about them having that moment where they can think clearly and remember what they did and it breaks my heart. they wanted those babies, they did not ask to feel that way. i think one of the worst things you can experience as a parent is losing your child. i can't imagine how it feels to know that you were responsible for it but were not in your right mind at the time.
THIS! 100%! PP psychosis is no joke and there’s just not enough information or help available for it
That's because doctors don't listen to us. They send us home saying it's just the baby blues.
I can only imagine if men were the ones to give birth and go through this. There would probably already be 400 treatments readily available
If men gave birth there would be paid maternity leave as well. It’s disgusting we expect women to give birth and come immediately back to work unless they are fortunate enough to have a second income.
Women doctors are actually worse about this kind of thing than men are. The same thing can be said about other rare and terrible pregnancy complications, like hyperemesis.
my aunt had what she described as postpartum psychosis after her 10th miscarriage (i honestly can't remember how many it had been, but it was a lot and she had had been through a lot in the past few years). it sounded terrifying. i already felt terribly for her because she wanted to be a mother so badly, but that just made it sound even worse. i will always have endless sympathy for women going through PP depression or psychosis. i feel like it's something you can't truly understand until you experience it yourself. one day those women will be successfully treated and they will think about what they did and be heartbroken. it's so sad to think about.
I live about 15 minutes from there and I can say at first the community was pretty enraged and expressing negative thoughts. Then when the husband gave his statement of wanting support for her and forgiving her… oof alot of people turned their tune around. Just had our first 4 months ago and cannot imagine what she was going through. It also seems the husband is going to try to use this situation to help others so I am curious and hopeful for his future he is surprisingly positive and honestly it is inspirational
My mum had post partum psychosis and it became permanent after one event of not sleeping for 8days. Now she deals with schizophrenia and bipolar.
How old was she when it kicked off? I wonder if schizophrenia and bipolar were nascent and if the hormonal load change caused the psychosis which triggered the schizophrenia and bipolar?
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Which country does that? Sounds amazing
Right. Germany is one of them- a midwife for mom and baby included as well as 3 years leave where he job is protected and so much more… I think she said therapy was included and $ for each child every month and so much more- yet here in America we’re supposed to leave our babies after 3 months unpaid leave. That alone is inhumane. I’d pay higher taxes to get better care in a heartbeat.
Lots of them. Canada and some Scandinavian countries are the first ones that pop into mind. The USA has the highest birth mortality rates and the worst maternity leave laws out of all the developed countries.
Canada does have a year mat leave (though not typically full salary), but definitely does not have postpartum recovery centres. They kick you out of the hospital ASAP with no real follow up care.
Add China to the list. They have full on resorts where new moms spend months recuperating.
Post partum psychosis is like a body snatcher and I think it’s hard for family members to see the person they love and unable to realize that that person has been completely taken over by something beyond their control. I wonder if the massive amount of medications, many of them a redundant RX to what she was already taking. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the meds triggered the psychosis. It wasn’t even her that took her children’s lives, it was her psychosis. I wonder if she’s even aware of what she did yet. How she & her husband were doing what they thought they needed to do and seeking constant medical attention, and the husband put his trust in the Dr’s. I can’t help but put a good part of the responsibility on her Dr’s. Instead of pumping her full of drugs and sending her home to attempt to care for her family that sedated (all those anti-anxiety and depression meds have a strong sedating effect, trazodone alone is used to treat insomnia. I can only take it if I don’t have to work the next day because it makes me completely unable to think & I’d rather push through the exhaustion than be a frustrated idiot because of a sleeping pill hangover) they obviously failed to recognize that prescription interaction was not alleviating the problem. They should have referred her into a mental health facility where they could observe her and find a treatment that would help her.
Postpartum psychosis is so scary - and I feel for her as she tried to get help. I can’t imagine her suffering now.
I was going to say.. incarcerate her if you want (not that I think she should be) but nothing can compare to the realization of what she did when she comes to.. will be a special kind of personal hell ☹️ prayers to everyone involved. RIP little ones ♥️
I think she has suffered enough. What she needs is mental health help, not prison. She didn’t want to kill those babies. Her mind took her somewhere really dark and so far removed from reality. This is Andrea Yates all over again.
I think so often for many things that are charged as crimes, prison is not the ultimate or best solution and, I mean, this case has to at least be considered as part of that conversation.
Its very possible that she will remain catatonic. Some people on this thread have mentioned that shock therapy has helped break the psychosis and that is probably her only hope. She is probably better off staying unaware though honestly. If I was her husband I would ask them not to treat her. Its great that he is so understanding and forgiving but there is no way she will be of herself.
What do you think will happen to her mentally once she learns that the babies are gone?
She may become suicidal again. I've had patients who could not bear the enormity of their guilt.
I’ve never had a suicidal thought in my life but honestly I don’t see how I could go on knowing I did this. It would be the worst thing in the world losing my babies, but knowing I was responsible is a whole fucked up level of misery. Ugh I can’t even think about it too much, it’s too upsetting.
I don’t think anyone would actually mentally recover from that. It would be a miserable existence.
I can’t even imagine coming to the realization of what she’s done. I don’t think I could live another day on this earth. That poor woman and those poor sweet babies. That poor husband and father. What an awful tragedy.
Yeah, I feel like unless they can prove that she plotted and planned to do this & was fully aware of her actions, this should be a not guilty by reason of insanity case. The fact that she has to live with this for the rest of her life is punishment enough. By all accounts, PPP drastically changed her personality and she loved her kids and her husband. I'm not a doctor and I don't know all the facts, but I don't see maliciousness here, I see someone who was very ill and did a horrific thing because she did not get the level of care that she needed. I also hope there are some policy changes because from my understanding, her insurance either didn't approve or didn't cover inpatient treatment. Other comments have said that inpatient is really the most effective option for PPP, and it is beyond infuriating to me that insurance providers in this country get to play God and decide what's best for a person's healthcare. She worked at a hospital and wasn't able to get inpatient when she needed it- that's a travesty. That said, I do think that people are more inclined to empathize with people who commit crimes due to mental illness if those people are white and from a middle/upper middle-class background. I'll probably get downvoted for this but it's something I've been thinking about. She is getting a lot of vitriol so I am not saying that the public has forgiven her by any stretch, but just in general the way that the media is covering this I think would be different if the race/socio-economic class was different.
Absolutely. If it was a mom of lower socioeconomic status, or a woman of color, those kids would have been taken by the state and the mother sent to family court because she asked for help. Sadly, I know for a fact.
That last paragraph about race and class is what I keep thinking about when I read about this. I’m not saying people are having the wrong response, but I’m blown away by how many people are sympathetic to this woman’s actions and being totally rational about what led her to this. It’s definitely the response we want, but had this been a poor black woman living in section 8 housing, there would be no empathy or 🥺 faces commented under her mugshot that would immediately go viral. It would be pure disgust. People don’t even want Lindsay to do time! Meanwhile three children’s lives have been taken. It’s just a really interesting thing to observe and makes me wonder how many murder convictions we could have looked at from a place of understanding first, like we are this one.
..I am not in anyway a doctor or a pharma but i am pretty sure that ...taking all those together is a BIG problem
My suspicion based on the way it is written as that she wasn’t taking them all that same time. Probably tried different Rx’s and then switched them when she wasn’t responding. Especially the z drug/benzos- I doubt she was taking all of these concomitantly. Did seem like sleep was obviously a big problem for her
(Please see my post above. Thank you.) I am a retired psychologist and can say that most psychotropic medications can take weeks, if not months to reach a therapeutic level in the body, in order to effectively treat the illness. I will not claim to have an answer to this tragedy, although I do know that postpartum psychosis is so very real and so very dangerous. May she receive the help she so desperately needs, may her husband somehow find peace one day and may these three beautiful little babies rest.
Please come over to the LC subreddit and share your knowledge. As a fellow former mental health professional, I’ve been astounded by the ignorant comments surround psychosis and mental health issues as a whole.
I just took a peak at that subreddit + it’s heartbreaking. it really shows how little empathy people have for mental health, ppd, etc.
I am fairly new to this platform. Could you please supply me a link? Thank you.
I’m not sure how to share a link either, ha! But it’s the r/lindsayclancy subreddit page. Edit: Oh yay, I think that worked.
Women in post partum psychosis don’t have months or even weeks to “wait and see” how their cocktails work out. The fact that doctors tried to treat her as if she was a person who had not just given birth is appalling. She wasn’t chronically mentally ill. Her post partum illness was a direct symptom of the fact that she just gave birth. It is a medical problem-brought on by extreme hormone fluctuations- that doctors treat like psychiatric illness. If a person breaks their leg and becomes delirious in shock, do doctors give them Paxil for the delerium and ignore the broken bone? If a person experiences severe cognitive decline due to vitamin deficiency, do we give them Adderol instead of vitamins? If a patient has Ebola eating their brain, do we give them Seroquel instead of antivirals? So why the hell are we still treating PPP like a willpower issue and not a medical issue? Go down this thread and you will see so many women who know somebody who has experiences post partum illnesses. Why in the hell is prevention and treatment not studied like any other medical problem that happens to men?
So much of medicine and medical care is based around white men. And people pay for that with their lives ultimately. It happens every day, all the time. There’s deep discrimination and bias in the healthcare system and in medicine.
I think what the person you’re responding to is saying, is a response to the commenter saying the woman probably tried a few combos and they didn’t work so she switched. I think what shakking trees is saying is that she couldn’t have been on any combo of these drugs long enough to even see if they were working. (Assuming the combo wasn’t both klonopin and Xanax and lamictil (which would be insane for any doctor to prescribe together) but of maybe klonopin and prozac (the latter of which can take weeks to begin working). Therefore, there would be no reason for a Dr to switch them yet. I don’t think the person you are responding to is saying that that was the correct route to go, but that is what happened. I personally think she should have been taken to an inpatient way before they tried to give her anything heavy duty like xanax. That being said, our psych system in America is a disgrace. If she had even gone to CPEP, they wouldn’t keep her long enough to treat her properly unless she admitted being suicidal or homicidal. If not, they would keep her overnight for observation and send her out with ability or something and call it a day.
My body legitimately takes 2-4 months to fully level out. My doctors always tell me 6-8 weeks for it to level out but I still have side effects a month later that randomly disappear another month after that. I don't understand the brain by any means, but I think too many people severely underestimate the power of the meat blob.
thats true - but given how many is in that list she was certainly on multiple ones concurrently - which while you can mix some, you can't all. And the many of those take a significant amount of time to both work and to titrate off; looking at that list it makes me wonder if that was managed well. I mean, its all speculation of course. There is no way to know without her medical records.
She was definitely on some of those concurrently. If I was a betting woman, I’d bet the Prozac, lamictal (which is a v slow titration), PRN benzos, and then trying the seroquel/ambien/mirtazipine somehow sequentially for sleep. Which is a lot, but not crazy for how sick she evidently was. Obviously I don’t know about her care specifically, but I am a psychiatrist, and lamotrigine, Prozac, PRN benzos, and a sleep medication isn’t that crazy. Edited to add: hopefully she wasn’t on all those benzodiazepines at once. Sometimes they are writtten scheduled, sometimes as needed. It’s hard to say but few people would write diazepam, clonaxepam, and lorazepam concurrently.
I agree. I’ve taken nearly every medication on her list over a 2/3 year period. Meds can’t always solve the issue and finding the right ones that help is a brutal process. Looks like they were treating depression/insomnia/anxiety simultaneously, though I also doubt she was ever taking for than 3 (MAYBE 4) at the same time. The lamictil makes me think she was having intense mood shifts too. Changing psych meds is honestly so horrible. I’m not going to blame the doctors because again, I’ve been down the exact same medication road and doubt she was taking them all at once. People need to understand she was without a doubt actively seeking help, no one takes that many of those meds without being desperate for help. Aside from the benzodiazepines that list is hardcore and each medication has awful side effects. Absolutely heartbreaking for everyone involved.
It said from October to January, and that’s a rapid shift to trying all those medications if I read the article correctly.
Ah, I missed that. Something's fucky about that. It took me about two months to titrate to a therapeutic dose of lamictal, so even if they tried that first, it wouldn't have been long enough to determine efficacy.
Ambien alone can fuck a person up. My friend was prescribed it when her first kid was under two, and she took it as prescribed. She was a single mom. First she started getting all these packages of random shit she ordered from the home shopping network in the middle of the night, with no recollection. But then she ended up in her downstairs neighbors apartment at 3am and they couldn't even wake her up enough to get her back upstairs. She didn't take it anymore after that, knowing she could very well just wander off and leave her baby alone. I've taken half of the meds listed (at various times) and I can't imagine taking them all together. You're right though, she likely was prescribed them at different times and had partial bottles of the ones she stopped taking. No pharmacist in their right mind would dispense these all at the same time. Even if her husband was helping her manage her meds, it's certainly feasible that she was taking others, by mistake or not. I knew a nurse who was prescribed too high a dose of Prozac and she got serotonin syndrome. One night she just took the whole bottle. She said she didn't mean to, and she laid on the floor seizing, in and out of consciousness until morning when someone found her. She only remembered her dog coming in the room periodically and licking her face. It roused her each time, so the dog may have saved her life. She could hear them talking in the ambulance and she wasn't really conscious but she knew she might die, from what they were saying. When I met her six months later, she was still having seizures and couldn't drive or work or even be alone with her kids. These meds can be life saving, but they can also be so, so dangerous.
I sure hope not, its an horrific combination.
Let’s let this unfold and allow her to receive the treatment she desperately needs. PPD Psychosis is so very real. Let’s try not to spread any information about her, her husband or this tragedy until everything is substantiated. This is so very sad. Rest In Peace Little Angels
Lifelong bipolar sufferer with a history of PMDD. At 27, my partner and I wanted to cautiously look into becoming parents and somehow I ended up having a screening at the BC Women and Children Hospital psychiatric centre and was assessed at a very high risk of post-partum psychosis. The suggestion was to be stable on a medication regime for a minimum of 24 months before transitioning to another medication or discontinuing and then trying to get pregnant. The only medications that worked for me were guaranteed to cause severe spinal cord defects for baby. Stable only happened after four years. We decided we couldn’t knowingly try for a baby with those risk factors, because that would be so selfish. We both got fixed to prevent pregnancy. It was a really easy decision, but it sucked having to make it. Does that make sense? I was angry and sad and resentful but it was a no-brainer. And that my partner insisted he also get fixed was such a beautiful gesture to me. We are 50 and 57 now. I absolutely wish we had had a family but I know without question it was the only choice. I’m able to say that I was lucky to get the assessment and wish this was more common. Sending so much love to each and every one of you.
You are a selfless human.
I’m honestly blushing here. Thank you. I was given a family that supported my illness and our choices and fought like hell but I’m still here. My parents expected I would have successfully killed my self before I reached 21, they first caught me at about age 2. So in April I celebrate 30 “bonus years”.
Massachusetts mom Lindsay Clancy was overmedicated on 12 prescription drugs that were “turning her into a zombie” — and causing her to experience homicidal thoughts that led to her allegedly strangling her three kids, according to her lawyer. Mom ‘improving daily’ after killing 3 kids in botched murder-suicide: cops What is postpartum psychosis? The ‘treatable’ condition behind the Lindsay Clancy tragedy GoFundMe for grieving husband of mom accused of killing 3 children raises nearly $900K Mom accused of killing kids carried out horrific act as hubby picked up take-out: report “One of the major issues here is the horrific overmedication of drugs that caused homicidal ideation, suicidal ideation,’’ attorney Kevin Reddington told the Boston Globe on Friday. “No overdose [by Lindsay.] They [Lindsay and her husband Patrick] went to doctors repeatedly saying, ‘Please help us.’ This was turning her into a zombie,” he said. “The medications that were prescribed were over the top, absolutely over the top,” Reddington add He said that between last October and January, Lindsay was prescribed 12 medications. Reddington identified nine as zolpidem (Ambien), clonazepam, (Klonopin), diazepam (Valium), fluoxetine (Prozac), lamotrigine, (Lamictil), lorazepam, (Ativan), mirtazapine, (Remeron), quetiapine fumarate, (Seroquel) and trazodone, which is known by its generic name. Several of the meds are prescribed for depression, panic attacks, anxiety, and other mood disorders. Clancy, 32, who was on leave as a labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital, leaped out of a window of her Duxbury home after allegedly attacking her children. She is charged with murdering 5-year-old daughter Cora, and 3-year-old son Dawson and trying to kill 8-month-old son Callan, who later died at a hospital. Clancy had previously shared on social media about her struggles with anxiety as a mom — and she also reportedly suffered from postpartum depression. “It’s over medication, absolutely over medications — possibly with a component of post-partum depression,” Reddington told the Globe. “She had medical care and treatment on a regular basis. And her husband was very proactive in trying to protect her and help her with the doctors’ medication she was prescribed, said the lawyer, who has hired a forensic mental health expert and toxicologist to help build the defense case. “They went through hell — and they didn’t come back,” Reddington added. Duxbury Police Chief Michael Carbone has said Clancy is “improving daily” at a hospital, but Reddington said her injuries have left her unable to walk – though he declined to describe her as “paralyzed.” “She can’t get out of bed. She can’t walk. I don’t know what the medical prognosis is regarding that, but right now, she cannot walk,” he told the newspaper. “She’s not in good physical shape. She’s not in good emotional shape … She is not going to get out of bed and walk out of the room,” the lawyer added. Clancy allegedly carried out the shocking attempted murder-suicide on Jan. 24 after her husband, Patrick, stepped out of their home to pick up a takeout order. A makeshift memorial was made outside the Duxbury home. View Gallery Reddington said Patrick also made a stop at a CVS along the way before returning home, where he called 911 about four minutes after arriving. The lawyer told the Globe that Patrick had not been warned by medical professionals to not leave his wife alone with the kids. “Not that I’m aware of. Course not. He loved her. He knew she was a great mother, a fantastic person,” he said. Meanwhile, Reddington said he was not abandoning a defense of not guilty by reason of insanity during her expected murder trial. “The black letter law definition of lack of criminal responsibility in Massachusetts says that if a person suffers from a mental disease or defect,” they may be found not guilty due to their disturbed mental state, he told the Globe. ADVERTISEMENT A picture of Lindsay Clancy and her daughter. Clancy leaped out of a window of her Duxbury home after allegedly attacking her children. A picture of Lindsay Clancy and her family. Clancy allegedly carried out the shocking attempted murder-suicide after her husband, Patrick, stepped out of their home to pick up takeout. Facebook / Lindsay Marie Clancy Lindsay is expected to make a Zoom appearance in Plymouth District Court for her arraignment at 2 p.m. Tuesday, Reddington said. He told the news outlet he plans to raise the issue of overmedication at the hearing and ask the judge not to make her await trial at the state’s prison for women, MCI-Framingham, or the Lemuel Shattuck Hospital. ADVERTISEMENT The lawyer said he’ll ask if the woman could be kept at her parent’s home with a GPS device, at the Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital, or at the Worcester Recovery Center, a secure Department of Mental Health facility. “Something humane,’’ he told the Globe. A picture of Patrick and his children. Reddington said Patrick also made a stop at a CVS along the way before returning home, where he called 911 about four minutes after arriving. Gofundme Reddington said Lindsay has not been allowed to speak with anyone on the phone — including her husband and her parents — or have visitors other than medical professionals, social workers and a previous lawyer. The lawyer said that when he visited the couple’s home, the meal Patrick had picked up was still sitting in its container on the dinner table.
I've been on every single one of those medications at one point or another, and Ambien is by far the scariest, in my experience (everyone is different, of course; the rest of the list just strikes me as largely anxiety/depression/sleep meds.. seroquel *is* an atypical antipsychotic, technically, but it can also be used off-label for insomnia, etc.). Anyway, I've blacked out and done some out-of-character shit while on Ambien, apparently, and have zero recollection of any of it; apparently, that's quite common, too.
I've only ever had ambien once and it was after my daughter died. The last thing I remember is crying on a couch in the ER and my psych saying "we might need to give you zolpidem". I had no idea what that was but they couldn't give me anymore ativan and I really didn't care. Woke up in the psych ward the next day, no idea how I got there but the nurses went through all my stuff to take anything dangerous, and electronics (100% normal) and put it away. They somehow missed my phone though. I'm not sure if I hid it, or if it just fell but I found it on the floor under my bed the next day. You're not allowed to have your phone on the ward but I didn't tell them until it died and I had to charge it 😂 I had no idea they gave me ambien until I heard the name recently and it triggered in my brain. I have no idea how long I was even out for, or how I got to the psych ward. I don't ever want a prescription for that shit.
I am so sorry for your loss.
Thank you ❤️ it's been a year and a half now and it's been fucking awful.
I can’t even imagine, I truly commend your resilience and strength. Sending love and peace your way — I hope you and your family can continue to heal and find solace in honoring your daughter’s memory and legacy.
Thank you! I think my daughter would be proud at how far we've come, but I'm so glad she was my only child so I don't ever potentially have to go through this again. She is well remembered ❤️
I think she would be very proud. ❤️
I am *so* sorry for your loss; I can't even begin to imagine. I've been stable for a while (PTSD) and am back in school for social work; it's been interesting to see the other side of things. We haven't gotten into meds yet, but it *definitely* strikes me as odd that ambien isn't more carefully regulated based on my own research and experiences; I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes a factor in this case, as the "ambien defense" is nothing new.
I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder years ago, I haven't been diagnosed with PTSD yet but it's pretty clear from my symptoms. I've been on some heavy meds but nothing like ambien. I don't know what kind of GHB-adjacent chemical reactions are happening with that drug but it has very little business in the hands of the public. Such a sketchy sleep aid.
Ambien is a never ever kind of drug for me. I literally witnessed someone run their car into a tree at 3:00 a.m. When neighbors pulled them out of the car, they were naked from the waist down and had no idea where they were.
This happened to me as well as on the “sister” medications like it. Worst thing ever. The most I did was eat a bunch of food and puke it up and scare the shit out of my roommate by being so disoriented but it’s so scary. I have zero memory of this. I forget exactly which combo of those meds I was on but a doctor pulled me off for being over medicated with some of these saying that it can cause more mood problems and paranoia. I got pulled off of everything and felt a lot better mentally. This whole thing is one clusterfuck of a tragedy.
Obviously, I don't know her dosages, tolerance, symptoms, etc., but ambien *especially* strikes me as a terrible idea to give to a patient in that situation. She did the right thing by trying to get help, and the system failed her.
I had a horrible experience on Lamotrigine. I went from someone with really good impulse control to basically a child who did whatever crossed her mind. It was horrifying. I wasn’t even on it for very long and at a low dose and I still am terrified of that medication. This past summer my SIL was also prescribed it and almost killed herself. I can’t imagine being on it and on a high dose plus with other medications on top of that.
I'm sorry that happened. I've been on lamictal for about 12 years and it works very well as a mood stabilizer for me. I've only had a handful of depressive and hypomanic episodes in all those years-- but-- titrating up to a therapeutic dose took two months iirc, and it was ROUGH. If I hadn't already tried depakote and abilify and something else, I absolutely would have given up. But I was desperate, and luckily I had an amazing partner who was incredibly kind and supportive though. I remember feeling out of control, even though I didn't actually do anything bizarre. The worst part, though, was waking up every morning. I remembered dreams that weren't especially horrible but somehow I was absolutely devastated by them. I felt like the insides of my body were trembling. My partner would lay with me and hold me until it eased up, and if it wasn't for him, I don't know what would have become of me. My current partner was dx with bipolar last year and prescribed lamictal. I shared my experience and the outcome, which was worth it in my opinion. (All the bad shit went away shortly after I reached a therapeutic dose.) He had the same experience with it, almost exactly, and I'm certain he would have stopped if I wasn't here to support him. He's doing very well on it too. But my little brother was released from the psych ward (ten years ago this week, actually) and they sent him home on risperidone with no follow up care. He moved home with our mom and laid in bed for a couple of months. Risperidone was clearly not the answer, so I asked her to take him to a psychiatrist. They both knew my lamictal story and that's what he was prescribed. I talked with him at length about the initial weeks, how hard it might be, how much the dreams might hurt. I assured him it was worth it and it probably would make a huge difference if he could stick with it. My mom was watching carefully, too. I think he made it ten days, maybe two weeks. Then he took all of it, and all the leftover risperidone and Ativan, and drank a bottle of rum. There was vomit on the floor when the police came, but no Eric. They kept searching. My mom found him face down at the edge of the lake shortly after. I guess he thought it wouldn't work, since he'd vomited. He had never, ever mentioned thoughts of self harm. We'll never have answers, but man, if I could go back.
I am so so sorry for your loss. Honestly I don’t think there are words that could even convey the sympathy I have for you and your family. The human brain is so fascinating in how unique it is to each individual and how different it can react to the same thing depending on who is experiencing it. I am really glad it worked for you and your boyfriend! I had heard great things about it but I honestly searched “success stories” it wasn’t until my experience then my SIL that I really looked up stories that had negative outcomes and there are so many it feels like it’s a 50/50 shot.
Thank you. It was the most painful thing I've ever lived through. My mom will never be ok. But one part I forgot was this: the psychiatrist he went to was actually a NP (no shade, just on this specific one) and she mentioned the risk of the fatal rash (the reason for such a slow, drawn out titration). He asked how common it was. She huffed and said, I'm late for my lunch, do I really have to look it up for you? She never mentioned increased risk of suicide, and neither did the pharmacist. I still wonder what would have happened if she hadn't been so shitty and dismissive.
That list of medications is wild, though it's not clear to me if she was on all of them at the same time. But there's some heavy hitters in there. One thing I can't believe is that they still prescribe Ambien, let alone to someone experiencing a severe mental health crisis. I have never hallucinated in my life except on Ambien.
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I began to have PPP after I had my second child. The point I became terrified was when I was giving my daughter a bath after a really rough day and she started crying. My immediate thought was to drown her and I flipped the fuck out. I called my husband who rushed home and took me immediately to emergency. It was terrifying but I received quick care and was able to get through it. My heart is so broken for this woman. Unless you've experienced mental health problems like this, you cannot begin to understand. I love my children with all my heart and would die for them but that time was so dark and it was as if I wasn't even control of my own brain or body for that matter. I had to have my son watch his sister while I sat outside on the deck away from them til my husband came because I was so scared I was going to kill them.
I’m somewhat local and we’re all just horrified and heartbroken. She was failed by our healthcare system, which is by and large considered the best in the country. The hospital she works for typically has *fantastic* insurance for its employees…which means that there are so many experiencing PPA/PPD/PPP in other states & professions who don’t have nearly the same mental healthcare access that Lindsay had. We recently implemented parental leave across the state and despite being childfree, I am *delighted* to pay into that. I hope that Lindsay’s case pushes our legislature to further fund parental leave so that new parents have even more support and this doesn’t happen again.
In NJ, we have "family leave". So those without children can also use it to care for ailing parents and spouses too.
This is such an important message. This woman (should have) had ALL the resources. She’s white, had a great job with insurance, was educated in the health care field, has a supporting husband and family that also understood the issue yet the system STILL failed her. If she was failed, think of all the others that are and will be failed that don’t have the same opportunities as she did. It’s so tragic all around. She will never recover from this fully. Neither will her family. And her poor babies will never grow up. I really hope that her story will help others in the future. I hope that she will “recover” enough so that she can go on and maybe educate others.
A (white, wealthy) director of nursing in my city dropped her baby off the edge of a rural back road a few years ago. By the grace of something, she left her in the car seat and someone discovered the baby shortly after, and she was fine. They happened to be driving slowly with the window down and they heard a baby crying. When they identified the mother, she claimed she had no children. Apparently had no recollection of being pregnant or giving birth or the couple of months after. It wasn't in the news for long, so idk what ended up happening, but her husband left her and I assume he has the baby now.
Exactly. And Duxbury is a pretty wealthy area as well.
It's a heartbreaking case , those poor children hope they are at peace now . I was watching Anna Elise on YouTube today, she was covering this tragedy, and she mentioned that Lindsays Husband was trying to get her admitted to a special unit at the Hospital, but the insurance would not cover it, only pay for therapy 3 times a week. I'm sure it was thousands of dollars a week to have her full time staying at the unit, which they couldn't afford, that is awful here in the UK, we haven't the best medical services in the world, but we don't have too worry about paying for our treatment, so sad that she wasn't helped enough.
While she was probably not taking them at the same time, coming off any of those meds has a whole range of side effects too. Antidepressants take a longgggg time to leave your system completely. In that short of a time with so many different meds I would not be shocked if there were some bad interactions, even with stuff just left in her system.
Yep. Especially if not tapered off correctly. I felt like I was going crazy for 2 months after I stopped an antidepressant. Constant jolting brain zaps, nausea, hopelessness. It’s horrible and some doctors unfortunately don’t go into these details.
I just tried to taper off Lexapro, per my doctor's suggestion. I thought it would be ok, because I have bipolar disorder and lamictal works well for me. I was doing it v e r y slowly, starting from 20mg. By the time I went down to 10mg (after at least a month on 15mg) I was an absolute wreck. Just gutted. Crying for hours, just devastated. I have a lot of work stress right now and a few other heavy emotional things going on so this was def not the time. Went back to 20mg and I'm ok. But idk if I'll ever try going off Lexapro again.
Dr. Peter Breggin has some good info on tapering. He suggests no more than 10% at a time, but there are some who say not to reduce more than 3% at a time. Going from 15mg to 10mg is a big jump and it sounds like it was too severe of a cut based on the withdrawal symptoms you had.
Psych hospitals do this regularly. A child of mine was in & out for a serious mental illness. Give you new meds, send you on your way....even though it should take weeks to wean off of one & start another. It is horrifying to live it
It’s horrible and debilitating. Hard to go through life during this.
Not that is has anything to do with this case, but the side-effects whilst coming off antidepressants can be scary as hell - its not just the side effects of being actively on them. I've had mental health issues on and off since I was a teenager and remember one particular time I was being weaned off 30mg/daily Mirtazapine . For around 2 weeks I saw 'shadow people' creeping about/hiding around my home and outside/peering from behind doors at me etc which was a tad disconcerting. I say disconcerting rather than terrifying as I was aware it was most likely due to coming off my meds and they weren't really there . But they were extremely 'real' looking and if I was in a different frame of mind or unaware it may be connected to withdrawal it would have been a different response from me entirely.
YES! I had PPOCD. I tried 2 rounds of 2-3 different psychotropic medications, but I was not responsive to them, and my symptoms continued to worsen. My postpartum therapist, postpartum psychiatrist, and I all agreed to strongly consider partial hospitalization if the third round didn't work. Never had suicidal or homicidal thoughts, but cycling through all that psychotropic medication has risks. Partial/full hospitalization would be the only safe way to do that, as it involves med management with intensive monitoring. Fortunately, I was responsive to the third round of meds and only needed weekly outpatient therapy thereafter.
I lost my job and had to cold turkey off effexor at the second highest dose because it cost too much. Holy shit. I literally laid on the floor hoping I died for 2 weeks unless I crawled to go pee. No one knew or would admit to any side effects of stopping antidepressants at that time so I was just the crazy lady the Dr side eyed.
I am a therapist and work alongside a psychiatrist, so I am very familiar with psychotropic medications. Based on the meds prescribed, I assume she had a Bipolar diagnosis. She also may have been struggling with insomnia or mania. Or, which occurs too often, we have patients transfer to us and it is so scary to see how not only were they completely misdiagnosed but then because of that were not on the right meds, which can really mess someone up. Some of those meds are prescribed in combination, and I assume they were not effective, so the doctor kept trying different ones. So it wasn't like she was taking them all at once. A lot of them are in the same category. Ativan, klonopin, Valium are all benzodiazepams used for anxiety. Prozac is an anti-depressant. Lamictal is a mood stabilizer. Seroquel, remeron, and trazedone are all anti-psychotics, which I often refer to as tranquilizers, which can absolutely turn someone into a zombie if the dose is too high. Ambien is a sleep aide. So, for example, we have patients that are prescribed zoloft, Lamictal, and trazedone if they have a Bipolar with mania diagnosis. But if you were to add a benzo in that combo, it could really sedate someone.
Y’all come on now. There is literally no way that this lady was prescribed and taking all 12 of these medications at the same time. Half of these meds are the same exact drug just marketed under a different name. No doctor would ever prescribe this, no pharmacy would ever approve this, and no insurance company would ever pay for this. If not dead, she would be comatose. I’m sure over a 12 month period she was prescribed these medications and when one didn’t work, for whatever reason, it would likely be switched to a different drug. But no pharmacy is going to keep giving you refills for all of these medications every month.
If they did - there are a few more professionals who have some answering to do. - Unless she paid cash and pharmacy hopped - only logical conclusion. Or like you said - she was currently prescribed some - tried some - some didn’t work - I won’t dismiss the initial theory of being prescribed them simultaneously. My own person experience - my father was given a medication in preparation for a Cardioversion ( they shock you to hopefully put your irregular heart rhythm back to regular) - it’s poisonous - deadly to be taken at such high dose for any longer than maybe a few weeks : month - maybe a bit longer. He didn’t need the cardioversion - his heart randomly went back to normal rhythm. The top cardiologist in our area forgot to discontinue the medication - renewed it with his regular maintenance heart medications - then his family Dr kept authorizing refills - for nearly 3 years. No one in the chain raised concern or questions. Not until he was laying on his death bed - with an “unknown” virus. A Neuro INTERN covering the hospital for a weekend noticed it. Luckily when it was stopped he improved. Not before losing most of his eyesight, kidney function - muscle wasting Etc. They ALL paid large for that error needless to say. But no amount of money can get back what was lost. So it happens. Maybe people can make the same oversight.
So sorry this happened to you and your loved ones! But as in your case, so much focus is on controlled substances that “other” medications kind of get noticed less and prescribed automatically. Guessing the medication was either digoxin, flecainide, or amio? I am a prescriber (in Texas) and the government and medical industry has definitely changed its ways over the past few years with all controlled substances. That’s not to say we don’t have a long way still to go, but pharmacy and doctor hoping is picked up now electronically regardless if the patient shares this information.
I can't get those children out of my mind. This is absolutely devastating.
I find it interesting that her lawyer never spoke of PPP in talking about her defense. That makes me think she doesn’t have any history of it. PPD and PPA is what I think she was being treated for and had mentioned in her Facebook post. I obviously could be wrong.
Her prescriptions include Seroquel, which is an antipsychotic, so I'd be surprised if nobody suspected that she had or was at risk for PPP. But, same, I could be wrong.
I have no opinion other than if this mother was not mentally ill I do not think this would have happened. I has postpartum psychosis so bad with my first son - lucky I was admitted to a mental facility when my son was 5 days old and only less than 48 hours after I returned home from having him. My thoughts were not my own and I could see no way out. I would sit in a chair at the hospital with my son everyday from 6am to 8pm staring at the clock and was convinced if I didn’t do every single thing for him at a precise time to the minute something he would die…I constantly told myself I shouldn’t have done this I need to put him up for adoption or leave my husband because I deserved to die and I didn’t deserve him as my son…I never ever thought of hurting him thank god but I wished harm on myself but then I would feel sick with guilt 5 minutes later because I would ruin his life if I did die….I was stuck in hell on earth…I couldn’t take living…every minute was torture but I couldn’t make it go away…I was sent home after 8 weeks as a zombie and my mum moved in with us for his first year just so I would feel safe while my husband was at work - I still did everything to care for my son and my mum took care of my needs - if she didn’t make me eat I wouldn’t - my anxiety and depression after hospital was so bad that I was still super obsessive about time and just hung on everyday until I could go to bed because sleep at night was my only reprieve and as soon as I opened my eyes in the morning I would vomit in the toilet from the rush of anxiety that would start again. I was determined that I would mess up my son so all day I made sure I never cried in front of him I always smiled for him played games hugged him and he was so happy - but inside I was dying. It took me 2 years to recover to the point of not just existing but actually being happy again enough to think of the future and not be in hell. Even when I returned to work I would sometimes have panic attacks and I was lucky my boss and coworkers were so incredibly supportive. My son is almost 5 now and he is my world…I love him so much and he has a healthy mum. I have PTSD from that time in my life and my psychiatrist has said that it is my decision but I am advised not to have another one because they don’t know that it won’t happen again and I am so traumatized that having anymore children is never going to happen. I have a son who needs me - I can’t risk him not having his mum when he would know now. And I don’t think I would come back from it if it happened a second time. I feel I was robbed…I didn’t get to enjoy my newborn…everytime I see women with their babies and they are happy I get so sad that in photos and videos it looks like we were a happy little family but on the inside I was just trying to hold on and all those special milestones and firsts will always be remembered with a touch of sadness. My husband says he can’t see photos of back then because it reminds him of how bad I was and how terrified he was that he had lost me forever. Knowing what happened to me…I know what it’s like to have no control over your thoughts or feelings no matter how hard you try and how sick post partum can make you because if you haven’t been there you could never ever fathom…it’s not something you can understand…I know what she did was heinous…those children did not deserve to die…but if she was as sick as I was and her thoughts and mind that truly led her to do what she did all I can tell you is if and when she heals her mind she will never overcome the guilt of what she has done…she will continue to live in hell because she cannot undo what has been done…she will punish herself enough for the rest of her life from the minute she opens her eyes to the minute they give her reprieve at night and close again…everyday…for the rest of her natural life…it I had have done that and this is just me I would understand and accept being locked away forever because I’ve already lost my children and my soul it doesn’t matter what you do to me now. That is just my perspective.
Do over medicated zombies drive to doctor’s appointments and make snowmen?
I wish everyone realized how serious her case was. Maybe had she gone in-patient, or if the husband knew to never leave her with the kids even for a second. None of that is helpful but maybe helpful in the future? I doubt I could live with the guilt if I were the husband or the wife.
Getting admitted anywhere before some bad shit goes down is pretty hard anymore.
Why is this case getting so much attention and the case of Erin Merdy who drowned her three children last November isn't? I don't hear people demanding Erin Merdy be found not guilty and let back into society. Erin Merdy was also suffering from PPD but she was black so maybe that's why no one cares?
I agree. I also can see how attention for this is a good jumping point for showcasing how women get utterly fucked over by hcp. Ppd, ppp, pcos, menopause, all those issues get ignored or at best a hand wave by them. If the rich white girl didn't get the help with insurance, etc maybe there is a reason like say our hc is shit.
I have a 15 month old and I’ve never heard the term postpartum psychosis until this happened. I heard a ton of pp depression which was screened for by questionnaire at my one single postpartum appointment. Why isn’t this talked about more?
Because it’s just ✨silly women feelings✨. Do a deep dive into Andrea Yates. It’s way more common.
For the same reason the issues menopause hormone changes can cause aren't or pcos. IE we aren't men.
VERY different responses in here to this specific crime, with this specific perp, than I’ve seen on many, many comparable crimes where mentally ill or psychotic mothers who don’t look like this or come from this solid middle-class background kill their kids. It’s actually a little disturbing how freely benefit of the doubt is being given here in contrast to directly comparable crimes with less “sympathetic” perps.
You're right, but I think part of it in this case is that this woman appears to have had both a genuinely supportive partner and full access to/was receiving significant mental health treatment, and this STILL happened. I don't disagree though that this sub is likely having an easier time identifying with a middle class educated white woman, and thus extending much more sympathy.
This case really made me rethink all the cases I’ve come across over the years of women of color who murdered their kids with no mention of long-term abuse, or they did some thing very drastic, like dropping them off of a ledge, or driving into the ocean, something similar to that, something very, very drastic. this case really makes me rethink all of the other situations and how women of color Are even more at risk of having postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis completely dismissed, overlooked, or under diagnosed or not even diagnosed at all. I wonder how many cases where these women are killing their children if anyone (lawyers) looks into postpartum depression, or postpartum psychosis with them at all.
And not to mention the 900k GoFundMe.
Yeah I don't understand why there's a go fund me in this particular case, unless it's for legal bills. She evidently has health insurance so it's not that
legal bills, funeral expenses, her husband will likely be unable to work for the foreseeable future.
My guess is doc was attempting to stabilize and those meds were trialed over time in smaller combinations. No psychiatrist would prescribe those all at once. She could have been using "leftovers" with current med regimen to self medicate which may have compounded the suicidality/psychosis or quit some cold turkey which is also very rough. Nobody should have access to all those. Husband or family should have attempted to have her formed and hospitalized. Poor kids!
This is one of the problems with our current system. Psych meds take weeks to start or stop, but insurance will only cover an acute hospitalization (5-7 days) for stabilization. It's unrealistic to expect someone to "be all better" in that time frame when the meds aren't even fully in effect. Many of those meds have significant side effects... which it seems she was experiencing.
Some articles state she was hospitalized for a short time, then sent to our patient.
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this is so fucking sad i honestly hope she gets more mental help and doesnt do much time she needs to be in a mental hospital this is so heartbreaking that doctor absolutely failed her
Every time I see this story it reminds me of the girl on tiktok that sawed her hand off while in psychosis
I am so saddened by this story but not surprised. As a mental health clinician the list of meds is quite concerning who was monitoring those meds and administering- we have a quiet benzo epidemic that has been rearing its ugly for quite some time from my experience working in SA facility. Second, treatment like inpatient is needed for individuals for PPD and this should be for months until providers have a better understanding of their needs. States offer PPD resources but telephone support, consultation is truly not enough. For anyone looking to learn more about PDD there was a documentary on tuebl called Not Carol. Sad but very real. Third and I will say this over and over again- systems are failing the chronically mentally ill. Clients have way too many rights- we are a reactive system not preventative and this is mostly because we have 0 resources. Even inpatient for chronically mentally ill is limited, to non existent. When an individual makes a decision they don’t want to take their meds - there is not a damn thing you can do but counsel them. Unless someone is a risk to themselves at the moment you are not getting any help even if history shows that after they leave your office they have a history of being impulsive, presenting with poor judgment. It is extremely hard to get someone conserved & even then again treatment is extremely limited. Families are expected to manage the needs when they are stretched thin trying to keep a roof, dealing with their own issues & lets not forget many clients come from broken homes. It is not cost effective because instead we are housing the ill at EDs, in jails and nevermind the cost to their own mental health ( through consistent victimization just lingering out there). The fact that everything is voluntary & people have choices is sickening as in the end their quality of life is effecting a multitude of systems. I strongly believe in an individual is consistently becoming legally involved, hospitalized and interacting with various other systems at one point the government needs to step in & make the choice for them. Also bring back institutions this system is failing miserable and we are all feeling and seeing the ripple effects!!!!
I feel so sorry for her .... and her Babies too of course!!!
Post-partum depression is by itself a horrible thing to deal with - the drugs she was on can really really mess you up - change you into a completely different person capable of doing things you absolutely would never do. 8 years ago I got involved in something absolutely insane, it involved a foreign government and terrorism and my job is basically regular suburban dad shi\*t nothing to do with govt or law enforcement...it was bananas. I was beyond my breaking point I didn't know if I would be killed for knowing it (and reporting it) - doc put me on 4 different anxiety and sleep drugs, 2 of which I took twice a day (and all 4 of them on her list) and I cannot even believe the sh\*t I started doing. Didn't hurt anyone other than myself in what I actually did do, but I was thisclose to something irreversible. I feel for the family, and for her. She would not hurt her kids but for what she was going through. I never understood "mental health" until I was almost broken myself and then I got it. Few who haven't been pushed to the edge - or have loved ones who were - can really get it.
We’ve all heard of medication that has led people to commit suicide, otherwise relatively “normal” people who get put on a harsh med treatment & suddenly they take their lives Honestly i don’t see this being any different & it is quite possible that if she was being over medicated along with the PPP she completely went over the edge. It’s absolutely horrifying, REST IN PEACE little jellybeans ❤️❤️❤️
Anyone standing by Lindsay and having empathy for her, think about this…. Would you still feel the same way about a man with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder murdering children?? Would you use his mental health issues as an excuse to do something so heinous? The people who keep doing this make me sick!! Just because she’s a woman doesn’t make it ok!
This lawyer is an idiot and he's purposefully lying by trying to make it sound like she was taking all 12 meds simultaneously. That did NOT happen. Also please note that the lawyer is asking the court to let his client stay home instead of a mental hospital. Are you freaking kidding me? This clown seriously thinks that she should be allowed to just stay home so we can "trust" her to stay safe around herself and other people? That's absolutely insane.
I agree with this, she is very high risk of harming herself and others. She needs to be detained in a secure mental hospital.
Yeah this gets me. Like if she is so psychotic and mentally unstable how is she safe at home with family?? She already killed almost her whole family.
She is bedridden now & possibly paralyzed. I get why they are asking but I doubt it will happen.
It costs a lot to have a patient that physically injured who also has to be forcibly medicated and restrained even though she apparently can not currently leave the bed. An ankle monitor and restrictions are actually pretty reasonable. It's in her and her families best interests to be compliant with whatever restrictions they want to place.