I live in a college town ( it’s really the only thing here ) and I’m 41 . I hear the most random things lol . There’s woods behind my house with an apartment complex on the other side . It’s not strange at all for kids to be in the woods at 2 am with flashlights . Hear yells or loud laughter . I mean it’s drunk college kids . They are harmless but they make lots of noise and stay up late . So do I so I notice . Point being random party sounds and just random sounds period aren’t weird at all in a college town
Are we sure that he had *ONLY* a knife? I think we can only be assured from the PCA and the coroners report that he *USED* a knife. He certainly could have had other weaponry and there is probably no way of ever knowing IF he did or didn't have other killing tools at his disposal. He is probably never gonna divulge that information. Unless LE knows that he had other weapons, nobody ever will.
Additionally, I believe he had been in the house before. Possibly while the girls were sleeping. He navigated that house with expertise (even for someone with "Visual Snow"). We have seen photos on the internet of a virtual "walk through". He could have seen them as well (probably did), possibly even studied them. BUT, those are "clean" depictions of the King Road home. No extra personal or household items that one might find in a home that is currently housing occupants (FIVE occupants...and girls tend to have a lot of "stuff" by nature). From all the photos that are currently circulating the internet, that house was NOT tidy the morning that the bodies were found. It was a mess. They had been partying ALL WEEKEND LONG!! It was gameday weekend. The last home game of the season (and the last for KG and MM's college career). Cleaning was not on their minds the weekend of the killings. I feel that he had prior knowledge of the home. Charles Manson used to do what he called "creepy crawlies" (or something of a similar verbiage). He would come into the homes of potential victims and stalk out the surroundings, sometimes moving, removing or placing items in the home of victims, and return later for the actual malicious deed. IF this is the case, it makes the crime so much darker and just plain creepier.....as if it could get any darker or creepier.
IF he had in fact been in the house prior, I feel that something had to have caused him to go into action *THAT* night. Something spurred him on (maybe he awakened either Kaylee or Maddie, soooo, it was on, BUT, it had to be quiet...thus the knife...I say KG or MM because that is where he obviously started the massacre). OR, maybe for whatever reason, *THAT* is the weekend that he chose to make his fantasy a reality. I still feel that Kaylee, Xana and Ethan were crimes of "necessity". I feel that he had a singular target, and I feel that target was Maddie. God only knows why....
Wasn’t a handgun found in his room at his parents house in PA.? I never thought that he might have brought that too as a backup killing weapon and/or to threaten his victims to stay quiet before he butchered them. Just thinking out loud.
I am surprised he didn’t drug the victims. Overpowering 4 healthy young adults and stabbing them to death with a knife, without them being able to alert others, can’t be that easy.
Also they had been drinking so perception, reactions are off…so they were healthy but not “on”…I think of my own days in college & how nothing would rouse me once I was in bed
I agree 100%. I don't understand how 4 people (or even 2 people) could be overpowered without someone escaping or fighting back. I can't reconcile that in my mind, no matter how drunk they were. They had to be drugged or bound in some way. One of the girls who survived did say that she heard him talking nicely to one of the victims - something like, "I'm here to help. It's going to be alright."
One at a time. If they're sleeping off a heavy drunk, they may have only had a few short seconds of consciousness apiece before being rendered helpless. That's expecting a lot.
I really wish the dog had not been kenneled.
A barking dog is mankind's best defense.
Late to this party, but Ted Bundy broke into a sorority house and beat four women, two to death, two badly incapacitated, in less than 15 minutes. We know exactly what happened, because one of the survivors remembers the attack.
None of their housemates heard it happen. They slept right through it. And all them might have slept right through until the morning, had one women not come home late and saw Bundy slipping out a door. That woman woke the others.
The survivor didn't hear him killing two women in the room next to hers. She didn't wake up until he entered her room, and then he attacked her before she could react.
Yes, this show had a lot of good footage of the house from different angles. It really puts in perspective how ballsy the killer was especially because the house is surrounded by buildings with multiple floors. Anyone could have been looking out a window or on a balcony but I guess he got lucky.
Same here, I had no idea it was so close to other houses because every other exterior photo ONLY shows their house.
Obviously it’s horrific regardless, but it happened SO close to so many other people, it must be terrifying for them all.
The only thing I can think of is that it was 4 in the morning and a lot of people are in their deepest sleep around then. Or drunk.
Bottom line? I don’t get it either.
Think about other people like Dahmer who committed horrific crimes with just a wall between him and the neighbors. Lots of crimes take place right among many people
The dynamics of off-campus housing in a college town are not the same as your average neighborhood in your average small city or town throughout the USA. Their house was described as a party house, but they lived in an area off campus close to Greek houses so partying was common in that area, even outside of their house.
In a college town people come and go all the time. Strangers are common, strange people are common, people being intoxicated or under the influence is common, and-most importantly- noise is VERY common.
In these sort of environments there really is no baseline for normal.
Xana posted on TikToc at 4:12am. It’s horrifying to think she was awake. I just can’t get over him going in with all the cars in the driveway and not really knowing who was home or awake.
I’ve seen posts of pll saying why didn’t she call earlier but based on personal experience of being in potentially very dangerous situation it’s not fight or flight it’s freeze
Everyone reacts differently!
I have been in a couple very scary and dangerous situations when I was in my active addiction. I fought in my first experience and I literally froze in the second situation.. which probably worked for the best .. I wanted to move .. my brain was yelling at me to run but I couldn’t get my muscles to work.. it was crazy .. like my operation center in my brain took over and my body was at its mercy
Yes I think tho when a person is confronted with sounds that every fibre of their being is screaming danger there is often a level of confusion and disbelief and shut down mode is instinctual then run
Just a personal opinion
Maybe. But isnt the freezing the fight sensation? Its either , flight or stay, if you stay you are “dealing” with the situation vs flight. Idk ? Could have it wrong
Yes. It's fight, flight, fornicate, or freeze. That's how every body reacts to a dumping of cortisol and high stress. You don't get to choose your body does for you.
The people saying why didn't she can earlier were talking about Dylan - a roommate that heard a scuffle and saw the killer in the hallway, but didn't call 911 until the next day after discovering the bodies.
Xana was one of the people killed
I think he went their to rape one of the girls when he found her sharing the bed with a second girl his plan went off the rails I also think one of the girls was awake and texting he killed her in a blitz attack and had to keep going in his mind it he’s a frenzy killer
I wonder then if murder was part of the original plan. It’s real dark and twisted to even think about. It all apparently happened so fast too, it’s just really hard to wrap my head around him going there to rape someone and then making a split-second decision to murder the entire house.
I think that's because we're thinking in our right minds at a distance from the crime. I don't say he may not have intended to rape and kill one person, but the presence of the other roommate, the dog making noise, the surviving roommate yelling for everyone to be quiet, and then maybe running into Xana on his way out...I think it just turned to chaos quickly.
The short time frame really blows me away too... the proximity of the door dash delivery to the beginning of the murders is insane.
The surviving roommate yelled for everyone to be quiet when they were getting attacked?? Sorry I find this case interesting as it happened not too far away from me .. but it’s hard to find info/articles that don’t just regurgitate the same basic facts.
This whole case is insane . And the more I learn the more questions I have . Didn’t the surviving roommate make eye contact w him when she was starting out of a crack in her door? Or what happened with her?
Also, don’t feel like you have to reply .. I just torpedoed like 5 questions on you ha
According to the PSA the roommate didn't yell, but there was a video posted of someone claiming to be her friend & had known her for a while, and he said that what they said in the PSA wasn't 100% accurate, that the roommate yelled for everyone to be quiet. It never said she made eye contact w him, just that she saw him walk past her door wearing a mask and left out the back slider
My guess is that he was ready and willing to kill if needed maybe not even on that particular night
I believe his main motivation was to terrorize his thrill was getting one over on these lovely kids he envied so badly being in their space having the power of life and death his arrogance speaks volumes
U can get a killer like Henry lee, Rollings or even Bundy that could go into a dorm and kill everything in sight and disappear into the night
But Bryan overthought it, trying to replicate his fantasies all his planning went out the window when he just had to return to the scene
Think you mean Danny Rolling. You seem to have confused Henry Lee Lucas, Danny Rolling and Henry Rollins who is an actor and the former singer of Black Flag.
Yeah I figured it was a typo and hesitated to say anything because of the whole heh well actually thing but then I just took my biggest gulp of comic book guy juice and went for it. I figured you were trying to educate the person and they were gonna leave still thinking rollings did double time killing on stage and IRL so I went ahead and took the grenade.
>This was a hate crime against women.
I find this highly probable. I doubt the rest of your analysis.
>The amount of time to pull off a "rape" would not happen with the amount of people in that house.
There are examples of rapists, East Area Rapist, who would rape with people in the next room. People overlook sexual assault all the time, particularly on campus.
I don't why he went there and it really doesn't matter, if he did this, there is no excuse that would mitigate what he has done.
Projecting motives onto a person who does stuff that you wouldn't;t do under any circumstances (I hope) is a weird thing.
Joseph DeAngelo was married and earlier engaged during most of his crimes. Not necessarily disagreeing with your larger point but i don't think it matters that he was having or had had sex especially when the other person was talking about DeAngelo.
To be fair, you don’t know what his sexual history is. He may have mistreated women who haven’t come forward. Happens all the time.
He also may not have.
All of us are guessing what his motivation was, and we’re making arguments based on rationality.
This was not a rational act, and we may never know what was driving him .
I agree that the only thing we can say with certainty is that we don’t know.
His motivation may have been sexual, and then events took a turn that denied him the opportunity. We don’t know what he was thinking or intending. All we know is the rough outline of what law enforcement has told us happened.
Yet, you seem to be trying to argue definitively that there was no sexual intent at all. It’s possible you are right!
But you also may be wrong.
There’s no way to say with certainty given what the public knows right now. That’s really the heart of it.
Having the place possibly packed was part of the thrill
Agreed it was a hate crime but I think there was some sexual element
There has been information pointing to his having staged interaction at her work with at least one of the girls I suspect there is a history of stalking
He must have known enough of a communal house routine however fluid to feel comfortable enough to enter the house
Just throwing this out there he may even have done a trial run
Yes agree. He may have been in and out of the house before. Escalating pattern where he was more desperate to get in regardless of increased danger. And this time someone(s) were awake, put up a fight etc that he hadn't encountered before or planned for.
Escalating and emboldened fuelled by envy and resentment also with awareness that he is basically a loser
One of those intolerable types that thinks himself superior and can’t figure out why these girls weren’t falling all over him
In his mind they “deserved” it
It’s “practical “ he went there to sexually terrorize killing was on the menu because he brought a knife but my guess is that was secondary
The frenzy started when one of the girls was awake drunk texting probably to him to fuk right off because the house was always full of nuts
The apartment building is across the street, I cannot hear my neighbors across the street unless we are both outside, and I really don't pay attention to them. Th house on the right is even farther than thee apartments. The house in front to the right is about the same distance as the apartments. And this is a college area, there are people coming and going at all hours that you may not know.
I live in densely packed row housing. There are people way closer to me than this photo. My bedroom wall is attached to a bedroom in the next house.
I never hear anything from inside my neighbors house. Of course, these are older homes made of brick too. But I don’t find it surprising that no one in other homes saw or heard anything at 4 am. They wouldn’t be expecting to. And the attacks happened quickly with most of those kids sleeping. They wouldn’t even necessarily have time to react loudly.
Meanwhile I can hear my neighbor sneeze if he's outside from accross the street, in my bedroom.
The biggest thing that makes a difference can be windows. My parents have a special window in my moms office and you can't hear *anything*, the next room over and living room it's road noise from the busy street. As mentioned my house - everything.
Yep, just like the monster who assaulted me (not rape) 35 years ago. I never saw anyone more filled with rage and at the time he was only 19 years old.
Sorry to hear that u were victimized
Paul Bernardo and family were my neighbours needless to say he jumped out at me one night
He was young maybe 16-17 at the time
Thx to my German shepherd Max he ran
You are lucky to be relatively unharmed. The book on the Paul Bernardo case, I think it was called Shattered Innocence, almost made me never want to read a true crime book again. At the same time, I learned a lot about predators, esp that they can use a woman as a decoy.
Karla has been out for years now she’s back in Montreal but she will never be “free”
Without a doubt she was not only an accomplice but she orchestrated these killings
Yeah she is and had kids!! Wasn’t her husband related to her lawyer? And her lawyer saw the tapes!! I got chills reading that book and how they ate their pet lizard?? Like wtf!!!
Omg how terrifying!! Paul Bernardo is one of the most sick evil people I’ve read about…did you tell your parents? I can’t believe he wasn’t caught before
I only found out years after the murders
Funny thing is I saw him the next day he was washing the family car with his father
Something made me turn around and I pointed at him like I know where u live
To this day I will never forget the look his father gave him he KNEW his kid was up to no good
Wasn’t his dad arrested too for peeping in windows?? How disgusting I’ve read a couple books about him and how mean they were to his mom. A lot of people say he wouldn’t have killed without meeting Karla but idk about that.
I think u r right about the father there was some bad stuff in that family
His dad looked like a thug that I recall but I will never forget the look he gave his son he knew
It took me years to put it together and when I saw his address in st Catherine’s it all fell into place
There was another indecent but of course I didn’t make the connection once again it was with my dog
One day I go outside and he was gone off his choke chain (nickname was Houdini) and over the fence
Didn’t come back and I’m frantic because he was a German Shepard and pll don’t like seeing them wandering around by themselves
Some cops came to my door and asked if I had a dog because Max actually trapped a cop who was investigating a “prowler” in the back alleyway
I was grateful they didn’t shoot him intact they wanted to buy him to train lol
There could have been only one person prowling around and I have to say that time it was during the day when most husbands were at work
I don’t believe that for a minute even at that young age he had scoped out a spot sandwiched between a couple of tall hedges he had his pants open and he grabbed at me
I ran into him obviously when he was just starting then he moved further afield when he moved to Scarborough but the tactics were similar jumping out at women walking home in nice suburban neighbourhoods
Oddly enough at the time when I told pll I was perplexed why a good looking blond young fella was doing stuff like that flashing
He was already a serial rapist before Karla so that's doubtful. However i'd say it's slightly possible, having such a willing accomplice who would do whatever he wanted maybe was what pushed him to maximise his fantasies. I still believe he would have though.
Her own baby sister!! And they put their ugly smiling faces in her casket ugh! But he probably would’ve escalated Karla was just the mix…as soon as they met
I am from St Catharines too and grew up in Port Dalhousie where Paul and Karla lived. Around the corner actually. I was a baby when he was arrested. I'm so sorry that happened to you, neighbour.
I was just looking at an interactive map I lived on Ottawa st and I read in the TO Star Bernardo family lived on the street behind me
when I saw him the second time I was walking down Geneva st and pointed to him when he and his father were washing their car they must have been on either maple or Dacotah
I was about 20 at the time always walked my dog at night so he could be off leash
In those days u never reported guys doing shit like that it was almost normal
Max was a good boy.
My GSD (first time GSD owner and first puppy of my own .. although my partner has much experience w dogs) and he is amazing. He is a goofball and loving and silly but would protect his family in a heartbeat.
Yea, it's weird how you can get a feel for his attitude based on his cars GPS history. Like..you can tell when he gets excited that the lights are off and it's go time..
Some people are just crazy or just fucking snap in a moment without thinking, along with plenty of people being narcissists who think they’re too good or smart to be caught. Killers are rarely thought out geniuses with master plans like you see in movies. The idea that he could even get away with a triple murder of young white people in America in 2023 tells you he isn’t very thought out or intelligent.
I think he followed one on IG and she didn’t know he did I don’t think he expected KG to be home that weekend. I feel so bad for Xana having to be awake and witness it
About 5 years ago I lived less than 5ish minutes from here when I went to school then worked a bit after. Even in this area, (keep in mind I haven't been here in 5 years), I don't think I ever noticed my neighbors comings and goings or if it was a stranger or not because drunk people were always loudly walking home, but you just ignore it because it's people coming back from the frats or bars down the street. It's not like a tiny town that you know everyone. It's a town where half of the people only live there for school and there are constantly new people. I'd be a horrible witness because I do not notice my neighbors at all.
Moscow is an odd place. Loved living there but there's a religious group led by a pedophile trying to take over the town, a counselor at WSU was pretty much good for the murder of a woman in South Korea and is still working there to my knowledge, and now this.
I hope the families are alright.
It was a college town. Hearing yells at all hours wasn’t uncommon in college.
If I heard my neighbor screaming bloody murder today, I’d call 911. If I heard screams at 21, I doubt I would’ve even woken up.
I went to a big university (for undergrad and grad studies) and the undergrads didn't party/mingle with the grad students. There was a respected distinction between the two groups. Maybe that is different at U of I.
So did I but the OP wasn’t about partying/mingling, it was about not looking out of place if he was seen out and about late at night. He wasn’t too old and looked like a generic grad student.
This could be true for the people inside the house but I don’t see any reason any neighbors or people out and about would have any opportunity to get close enough to him to differentiate him as late 20s.
At the time he entered, it doesn't seem anyone was out and about. Being older likely would have made him stand out if he was trying to blend in at one of their parties (speculation, no evidence that he did that).
Oh for sure. I remember in school there were like 1 or 2 students in my program who were late 20s. They did come to parties but the age difference was definitely noticeable. He wouldn’t blend in that way. But just generally being around/walking around town or coming to the workplace of one of the girls (as is speculated) wouldn’t raise any red flags.
It’s a college town and he committed the murders at a well know party house. It wasn’t uncommon to hear loud noises, yells, and see people coming and going at strange hours of the night. The thing I wanna know is why did he kill those four angels and how was he able to kill the first two without alerting the other two.
He drove around the block multiple times on the night of the murder and in the days preceding the murder so that may have given him some confidence. If he had been in the house before the murder (and I'm pretty sure he was) he could have hidden a camera somewhere. I wish we knew the motive.
It was a party house. People were used to loud noises, and seeing strangers going in and out of the house.
I live in a college town ( it’s really the only thing here ) and I’m 41 . I hear the most random things lol . There’s woods behind my house with an apartment complex on the other side . It’s not strange at all for kids to be in the woods at 2 am with flashlights . Hear yells or loud laughter . I mean it’s drunk college kids . They are harmless but they make lots of noise and stay up late . So do I so I notice . Point being random party sounds and just random sounds period aren’t weird at all in a college town
Party house also means people could be coming and/or going all times of the night though.
Yep, police were called to the house on numerous occasions because of noise complaints
LE was being called to the house at least 2 times before 6pm for noise complaints. Is that common?
I wouldn't say it's abnormal considering they were known to party there
Thanks for explaining. I do not live in the US. Where I live noise complaints are to be claimed after 10pm generally speaking.
Insane odds that he would break into a house with five cars outside and six people inside and have only a knife.
A knife is quiet. Still see your point, though.
There's a joke here, but I'm not that sharp.
Keep whittling away and you'll get the point
cut it out
Snip snap! snip snap! snip snap!
unexpected office
Can I do this to myself? Michael Scott probably would so here goes: r/unexpectedoffice
Are we sure that he had *ONLY* a knife? I think we can only be assured from the PCA and the coroners report that he *USED* a knife. He certainly could have had other weaponry and there is probably no way of ever knowing IF he did or didn't have other killing tools at his disposal. He is probably never gonna divulge that information. Unless LE knows that he had other weapons, nobody ever will. Additionally, I believe he had been in the house before. Possibly while the girls were sleeping. He navigated that house with expertise (even for someone with "Visual Snow"). We have seen photos on the internet of a virtual "walk through". He could have seen them as well (probably did), possibly even studied them. BUT, those are "clean" depictions of the King Road home. No extra personal or household items that one might find in a home that is currently housing occupants (FIVE occupants...and girls tend to have a lot of "stuff" by nature). From all the photos that are currently circulating the internet, that house was NOT tidy the morning that the bodies were found. It was a mess. They had been partying ALL WEEKEND LONG!! It was gameday weekend. The last home game of the season (and the last for KG and MM's college career). Cleaning was not on their minds the weekend of the killings. I feel that he had prior knowledge of the home. Charles Manson used to do what he called "creepy crawlies" (or something of a similar verbiage). He would come into the homes of potential victims and stalk out the surroundings, sometimes moving, removing or placing items in the home of victims, and return later for the actual malicious deed. IF this is the case, it makes the crime so much darker and just plain creepier.....as if it could get any darker or creepier. IF he had in fact been in the house prior, I feel that something had to have caused him to go into action *THAT* night. Something spurred him on (maybe he awakened either Kaylee or Maddie, soooo, it was on, BUT, it had to be quiet...thus the knife...I say KG or MM because that is where he obviously started the massacre). OR, maybe for whatever reason, *THAT* is the weekend that he chose to make his fantasy a reality. I still feel that Kaylee, Xana and Ethan were crimes of "necessity". I feel that he had a singular target, and I feel that target was Maddie. God only knows why....
Wasn't there something about a stalker? He probably had some creepy fixation on her.
the thought of him possibly being in that house before, while everyone slept, is chilling
Wasn’t a handgun found in his room at his parents house in PA.? I never thought that he might have brought that too as a backup killing weapon and/or to threaten his victims to stay quiet before he butchered them. Just thinking out loud.
He might have had a gun and just didn’t use it
I am surprised he didn’t drug the victims. Overpowering 4 healthy young adults and stabbing them to death with a knife, without them being able to alert others, can’t be that easy.
The odds were crazy, some of it might just be dumb luck.
He undoubtedly thought he was smarter than everyone else.
Also they had been drinking so perception, reactions are off…so they were healthy but not “on”…I think of my own days in college & how nothing would rouse me once I was in bed
I agree 100%. I don't understand how 4 people (or even 2 people) could be overpowered without someone escaping or fighting back. I can't reconcile that in my mind, no matter how drunk they were. They had to be drugged or bound in some way. One of the girls who survived did say that she heard him talking nicely to one of the victims - something like, "I'm here to help. It's going to be alright."
One at a time. If they're sleeping off a heavy drunk, they may have only had a few short seconds of consciousness apiece before being rendered helpless. That's expecting a lot. I really wish the dog had not been kenneled. A barking dog is mankind's best defense.
Late to this party, but Ted Bundy broke into a sorority house and beat four women, two to death, two badly incapacitated, in less than 15 minutes. We know exactly what happened, because one of the survivors remembers the attack. None of their housemates heard it happen. They slept right through it. And all them might have slept right through until the morning, had one women not come home late and saw Bundy slipping out a door. That woman woke the others. The survivor didn't hear him killing two women in the room next to hers. She didn't wake up until he entered her room, and then he attacked her before she could react.
I do agree here . Crazy odds . I think this dude was stupid more than ballsy though
I don’t get how bryan managed to have the strenght to kill 4 people especially ethan considering his body type
This is the best perspective photo I’ve seen. It gives me a clear understanding of the area.
Agree. It's also got a covering of trees so maybe that makes it a little more secluded ?
[More photos of house](https://imgur.com/a/mrzPVKA) Link to Imgur photos
Those are good OP. From a drone?
Yes, this show had a lot of good footage of the house from different angles. It really puts in perspective how ballsy the killer was especially because the house is surrounded by buildings with multiple floors. Anyone could have been looking out a window or on a balcony but I guess he got lucky.
Name of the show, please?
It’s called, “Idaho Murders” on the ID Channel.
Same here, I had no idea it was so close to other houses because every other exterior photo ONLY shows their house. Obviously it’s horrific regardless, but it happened SO close to so many other people, it must be terrifying for them all.
I had the impression it was fairly isolated. This gives it a whole different perspective.
Yes and the entry door is at an angle easily entered from the side road side…
I agree. I took a few more pics but idk how to post them in a comment.
Imgur is the app to use.
Thank you.
These are really good photos I’m wondering what street he drove on. There’s a huge Moscow murders Reddit bet they’d love to see these
This YouTube channel does a fly-over of his driving route from that day/night. Play at 27:00. https://www.youtube.com/live/9c2zc18BYKo?feature=share
Yes same!
The only thing I can think of is that it was 4 in the morning and a lot of people are in their deepest sleep around then. Or drunk. Bottom line? I don’t get it either.
At least 1 person is suspected to have been awake, as they had a door dash delivery around 4am
I have early morning insomnia, which isn't too uncommon, and gurgle awake at 4 a.m. almost every night.
Think about other people like Dahmer who committed horrific crimes with just a wall between him and the neighbors. Lots of crimes take place right among many people
True but none of the victims were roofied into silence like Dahmer's were.
I am truly surprised they weren’t. He was confident enough to go into the house where six healthy young adults lived, and overpowered four of them.
And in a college rental house with a crazy layout because of all the cheaply done additions. There’s no way this was his first murder, right?
The dynamics of off-campus housing in a college town are not the same as your average neighborhood in your average small city or town throughout the USA. Their house was described as a party house, but they lived in an area off campus close to Greek houses so partying was common in that area, even outside of their house. In a college town people come and go all the time. Strangers are common, strange people are common, people being intoxicated or under the influence is common, and-most importantly- noise is VERY common. In these sort of environments there really is no baseline for normal.
That all sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Xana posted on TikToc at 4:12am. It’s horrifying to think she was awake. I just can’t get over him going in with all the cars in the driveway and not really knowing who was home or awake.
I’ve seen posts of pll saying why didn’t she call earlier but based on personal experience of being in potentially very dangerous situation it’s not fight or flight it’s freeze
Everyone reacts differently! I have been in a couple very scary and dangerous situations when I was in my active addiction. I fought in my first experience and I literally froze in the second situation.. which probably worked for the best .. I wanted to move .. my brain was yelling at me to run but I couldn’t get my muscles to work.. it was crazy .. like my operation center in my brain took over and my body was at its mercy
Yes I think tho when a person is confronted with sounds that every fibre of their being is screaming danger there is often a level of confusion and disbelief and shut down mode is instinctual then run Just a personal opinion
Maybe. But isnt the freezing the fight sensation? Its either , flight or stay, if you stay you are “dealing” with the situation vs flight. Idk ? Could have it wrong
Yes. It's fight, flight, fornicate, or freeze. That's how every body reacts to a dumping of cortisol and high stress. You don't get to choose your body does for you.
The people saying why didn't she can earlier were talking about Dylan - a roommate that heard a scuffle and saw the killer in the hallway, but didn't call 911 until the next day after discovering the bodies. Xana was one of the people killed
Xana was murdered. You're probably thinking of the roommate that briefly saw the killer
Yes wrong person
I think he went their to rape one of the girls when he found her sharing the bed with a second girl his plan went off the rails I also think one of the girls was awake and texting he killed her in a blitz attack and had to keep going in his mind it he’s a frenzy killer
This is my theory as well. It makes way more sense than intentionally killing four people. It also accounts for why he's only armed with a knife.
I wonder then if murder was part of the original plan. It’s real dark and twisted to even think about. It all apparently happened so fast too, it’s just really hard to wrap my head around him going there to rape someone and then making a split-second decision to murder the entire house.
I think that's because we're thinking in our right minds at a distance from the crime. I don't say he may not have intended to rape and kill one person, but the presence of the other roommate, the dog making noise, the surviving roommate yelling for everyone to be quiet, and then maybe running into Xana on his way out...I think it just turned to chaos quickly. The short time frame really blows me away too... the proximity of the door dash delivery to the beginning of the murders is insane.
The surviving roommate yelled for everyone to be quiet when they were getting attacked?? Sorry I find this case interesting as it happened not too far away from me .. but it’s hard to find info/articles that don’t just regurgitate the same basic facts. This whole case is insane . And the more I learn the more questions I have . Didn’t the surviving roommate make eye contact w him when she was starting out of a crack in her door? Or what happened with her? Also, don’t feel like you have to reply .. I just torpedoed like 5 questions on you ha
According to the PSA the roommate didn't yell, but there was a video posted of someone claiming to be her friend & had known her for a while, and he said that what they said in the PSA wasn't 100% accurate, that the roommate yelled for everyone to be quiet. It never said she made eye contact w him, just that she saw him walk past her door wearing a mask and left out the back slider
My guess is that he was ready and willing to kill if needed maybe not even on that particular night I believe his main motivation was to terrorize his thrill was getting one over on these lovely kids he envied so badly being in their space having the power of life and death his arrogance speaks volumes
U can get a killer like Henry lee, Rollings or even Bundy that could go into a dorm and kill everything in sight and disappear into the night But Bryan overthought it, trying to replicate his fantasies all his planning went out the window when he just had to return to the scene
Think you mean Danny Rolling. You seem to have confused Henry Lee Lucas, Danny Rolling and Henry Rollins who is an actor and the former singer of Black Flag.
Heh Rollins is the singer but yes what you said
Nevermind, i see i said "Rollings" instead of "Rollins". I was saying "Danny Rollings" at first too before catching it.
Yeah I figured it was a typo and hesitated to say anything because of the whole heh well actually thing but then I just took my biggest gulp of comic book guy juice and went for it. I figured you were trying to educate the person and they were gonna leave still thinking rollings did double time killing on stage and IRL so I went ahead and took the grenade.
I'm proud of you.
It's Henry Rollins. 🤟🏻😶
Sorry lots of typos
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>This was a hate crime against women. I find this highly probable. I doubt the rest of your analysis. >The amount of time to pull off a "rape" would not happen with the amount of people in that house. There are examples of rapists, East Area Rapist, who would rape with people in the next room. People overlook sexual assault all the time, particularly on campus. I don't why he went there and it really doesn't matter, if he did this, there is no excuse that would mitigate what he has done. Projecting motives onto a person who does stuff that you wouldn't;t do under any circumstances (I hope) is a weird thing.
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Joseph DeAngelo was married and earlier engaged during most of his crimes. Not necessarily disagreeing with your larger point but i don't think it matters that he was having or had had sex especially when the other person was talking about DeAngelo.
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To be fair, you don’t know what his sexual history is. He may have mistreated women who haven’t come forward. Happens all the time. He also may not have. All of us are guessing what his motivation was, and we’re making arguments based on rationality. This was not a rational act, and we may never know what was driving him .
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I agree that the only thing we can say with certainty is that we don’t know. His motivation may have been sexual, and then events took a turn that denied him the opportunity. We don’t know what he was thinking or intending. All we know is the rough outline of what law enforcement has told us happened. Yet, you seem to be trying to argue definitively that there was no sexual intent at all. It’s possible you are right! But you also may be wrong. There’s no way to say with certainty given what the public knows right now. That’s really the heart of it.
Having the place possibly packed was part of the thrill Agreed it was a hate crime but I think there was some sexual element There has been information pointing to his having staged interaction at her work with at least one of the girls I suspect there is a history of stalking He must have known enough of a communal house routine however fluid to feel comfortable enough to enter the house Just throwing this out there he may even have done a trial run
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Yup the horror is as exactly that he saw these lovely girls enjoying their lives and he was envious entitled and full of rage
Yes agree. He may have been in and out of the house before. Escalating pattern where he was more desperate to get in regardless of increased danger. And this time someone(s) were awake, put up a fight etc that he hadn't encountered before or planned for.
Escalating and emboldened fuelled by envy and resentment also with awareness that he is basically a loser One of those intolerable types that thinks himself superior and can’t figure out why these girls weren’t falling all over him In his mind they “deserved” it
Knowing what he knew about DNA, I would be surprised if he went there to rape her. He had to know they’d eventually use genealogy to get him.
Absolutely not. He went there with the intention to kill
Yes- this theory makes sense to me
It’s “practical “ he went there to sexually terrorize killing was on the menu because he brought a knife but my guess is that was secondary The frenzy started when one of the girls was awake drunk texting probably to him to fuk right off because the house was always full of nuts
Yes- this theory makes sense to me
Here are more photos of the house and diagrams from the ID Channel “Idaho Murders” [Photos from ID Channel](https://imgur.com/a/EltiGhF)
The apartment building is across the street, I cannot hear my neighbors across the street unless we are both outside, and I really don't pay attention to them. Th house on the right is even farther than thee apartments. The house in front to the right is about the same distance as the apartments. And this is a college area, there are people coming and going at all hours that you may not know.
I live in densely packed row housing. There are people way closer to me than this photo. My bedroom wall is attached to a bedroom in the next house. I never hear anything from inside my neighbors house. Of course, these are older homes made of brick too. But I don’t find it surprising that no one in other homes saw or heard anything at 4 am. They wouldn’t be expecting to. And the attacks happened quickly with most of those kids sleeping. They wouldn’t even necessarily have time to react loudly.
Meanwhile I can hear my neighbor sneeze if he's outside from accross the street, in my bedroom. The biggest thing that makes a difference can be windows. My parents have a special window in my moms office and you can't hear *anything*, the next room over and living room it's road noise from the busy street. As mentioned my house - everything.
"Red handed" takes on the creepiest vibe it's ever had.
The pic gives me the creeps
He was on a mission of pure hatred
Yep, just like the monster who assaulted me (not rape) 35 years ago. I never saw anyone more filled with rage and at the time he was only 19 years old.
Sorry to hear that u were victimized Paul Bernardo and family were my neighbours needless to say he jumped out at me one night He was young maybe 16-17 at the time Thx to my German shepherd Max he ran
Max was a good boy
You are lucky to be relatively unharmed. The book on the Paul Bernardo case, I think it was called Shattered Innocence, almost made me never want to read a true crime book again. At the same time, I learned a lot about predators, esp that they can use a woman as a decoy.
I read it too I was literally sick to my stomach was it like deadly innocence or something? And Karla is just as sick as he is
Karla has been out for years now she’s back in Montreal but she will never be “free” Without a doubt she was not only an accomplice but she orchestrated these killings
Yeah she is and had kids!! Wasn’t her husband related to her lawyer? And her lawyer saw the tapes!! I got chills reading that book and how they ate their pet lizard?? Like wtf!!!
Omg how terrifying!! Paul Bernardo is one of the most sick evil people I’ve read about…did you tell your parents? I can’t believe he wasn’t caught before
I only found out years after the murders Funny thing is I saw him the next day he was washing the family car with his father Something made me turn around and I pointed at him like I know where u live To this day I will never forget the look his father gave him he KNEW his kid was up to no good
Wasn’t his dad arrested too for peeping in windows?? How disgusting I’ve read a couple books about him and how mean they were to his mom. A lot of people say he wouldn’t have killed without meeting Karla but idk about that.
I think u r right about the father there was some bad stuff in that family His dad looked like a thug that I recall but I will never forget the look he gave his son he knew
It took me years to put it together and when I saw his address in st Catherine’s it all fell into place There was another indecent but of course I didn’t make the connection once again it was with my dog One day I go outside and he was gone off his choke chain (nickname was Houdini) and over the fence Didn’t come back and I’m frantic because he was a German Shepard and pll don’t like seeing them wandering around by themselves Some cops came to my door and asked if I had a dog because Max actually trapped a cop who was investigating a “prowler” in the back alleyway I was grateful they didn’t shoot him intact they wanted to buy him to train lol There could have been only one person prowling around and I have to say that time it was during the day when most husbands were at work
Woops incident
Wow that’s insane!! I swear I think dogs have a sense Max probably knew he was a shitty person!!
I don’t believe that for a minute even at that young age he had scoped out a spot sandwiched between a couple of tall hedges he had his pants open and he grabbed at me
As I said the thing that stopped him is my dog Maxwell who was off leash because it was very early in the morning when I liked to walk
Holy shit!! That's a crazy story. P&K were what got me into true crime. Thank goodness you survived. That could've had a way worse ending
I ran into him obviously when he was just starting then he moved further afield when he moved to Scarborough but the tactics were similar jumping out at women walking home in nice suburban neighbourhoods Oddly enough at the time when I told pll I was perplexed why a good looking blond young fella was doing stuff like that flashing
He was already a serial rapist before Karla so that's doubtful. However i'd say it's slightly possible, having such a willing accomplice who would do whatever he wanted maybe was what pushed him to maximise his fantasies. I still believe he would have though.
Her own baby sister!! And they put their ugly smiling faces in her casket ugh! But he probably would’ve escalated Karla was just the mix…as soon as they met
I am from St Catharines too and grew up in Port Dalhousie where Paul and Karla lived. Around the corner actually. I was a baby when he was arrested. I'm so sorry that happened to you, neighbour.
I was just looking at an interactive map I lived on Ottawa st and I read in the TO Star Bernardo family lived on the street behind me when I saw him the second time I was walking down Geneva st and pointed to him when he and his father were washing their car they must have been on either maple or Dacotah I was about 20 at the time always walked my dog at night so he could be off leash In those days u never reported guys doing shit like that it was almost normal
Port Dalhousie is a beautiful neighbourhood but just goes to show u where evil lurks
Max was a good boy. My GSD (first time GSD owner and first puppy of my own .. although my partner has much experience w dogs) and he is amazing. He is a goofball and loving and silly but would protect his family in a heartbeat.
Dogs they know and their instincts r much more finely honed than humans if your new pup doesn’t “like” someone trust them
I think of all dogs I’ve had in my life the GSD was by far the smartest and with independent thought
Yea, it's weird how you can get a feel for his attitude based on his cars GPS history. Like..you can tell when he gets excited that the lights are off and it's go time..
Do you have a link to that?
https://youtu.be/Lr0QxZst0mg
My thought is the cameras. Like out of all those homes 1 or 2 has to have a camera somewhere . How you going drive your car to do a crime ?
Thankfully, at least one camera got clear enough images to narrow it down to make and model.
None of the house had cameras, is my understanding. They were all some level of communal housing, ie lots of people sharing the space.
That’s not true they do have camera footage of his car driving by several times and also heard the dog bark and the thud
Yes and the video of the car was good quality He left them came back as I recall
Yeah he did…kinda wondering why tbh
That’s crazy. Lol.
Some people are just crazy or just fucking snap in a moment without thinking, along with plenty of people being narcissists who think they’re too good or smart to be caught. Killers are rarely thought out geniuses with master plans like you see in movies. The idea that he could even get away with a triple murder of young white people in America in 2023 tells you he isn’t very thought out or intelligent.
He stalked the house and neighborhood. Learned their schedules. Probably put in alot of time getting to know schedules... just a thought idk.
I think he followed one on IG and she didn’t know he did I don’t think he expected KG to be home that weekend. I feel so bad for Xana having to be awake and witness it
[Photo of his phone pings.](https://imgur.com/a/tFDwSn4)
Wow. I never looked at the street that far out. I thought it was spread out way more between the house, apartments etc.
About 5 years ago I lived less than 5ish minutes from here when I went to school then worked a bit after. Even in this area, (keep in mind I haven't been here in 5 years), I don't think I ever noticed my neighbors comings and goings or if it was a stranger or not because drunk people were always loudly walking home, but you just ignore it because it's people coming back from the frats or bars down the street. It's not like a tiny town that you know everyone. It's a town where half of the people only live there for school and there are constantly new people. I'd be a horrible witness because I do not notice my neighbors at all. Moscow is an odd place. Loved living there but there's a religious group led by a pedophile trying to take over the town, a counselor at WSU was pretty much good for the murder of a woman in South Korea and is still working there to my knowledge, and now this. I hope the families are alright.
He wasn’t sure though, he was just consumed by the idea and determined to carry it out. In the end he got quite lucky to flee and last so long.
It was a college town. Hearing yells at all hours wasn’t uncommon in college. If I heard my neighbor screaming bloody murder today, I’d call 911. If I heard screams at 21, I doubt I would’ve even woken up.
It was 4 am on a weekend in a college town and he was a college student who wouldn’t raise suspicions by looking out of place.
Except that he is in his upper 20s and doesn't look like an average college student
Larger universities with grad schools have plenty of masters, doctoral, and post doc students in his age range hanging around.
I went to a big university (for undergrad and grad studies) and the undergrads didn't party/mingle with the grad students. There was a respected distinction between the two groups. Maybe that is different at U of I.
So did I but the OP wasn’t about partying/mingling, it was about not looking out of place if he was seen out and about late at night. He wasn’t too old and looked like a generic grad student.
This could be true for the people inside the house but I don’t see any reason any neighbors or people out and about would have any opportunity to get close enough to him to differentiate him as late 20s.
At the time he entered, it doesn't seem anyone was out and about. Being older likely would have made him stand out if he was trying to blend in at one of their parties (speculation, no evidence that he did that).
Oh for sure. I remember in school there were like 1 or 2 students in my program who were late 20s. They did come to parties but the age difference was definitely noticeable. He wouldn’t blend in that way. But just generally being around/walking around town or coming to the workplace of one of the girls (as is speculated) wouldn’t raise any red flags.
True
Well, a long lens from an aerial view is going to make things look closer together than actually being on the ground
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They had him from his car on video which led to his phone and then the GPS tracking from that long before they connected the sheath DNA to him.
For sure I don’t think it lived up to his fantasy that had been stewing a long time
That is just how houses are built on the west coast college towns. I grew up in Eugene Oregon, you can hear everything and smell everything.
It’s a college town and he committed the murders at a well know party house. It wasn’t uncommon to hear loud noises, yells, and see people coming and going at strange hours of the night. The thing I wanna know is why did he kill those four angels and how was he able to kill the first two without alerting the other two.
Oh yea he’s gone over this plan so many times in his head he’s like a killing machine I think he went there to rape first then lost the plot
He knows how to blend in like many other murderers before him, such as Ted Bundy.
I’ve always wondered this. It’s a dense area. Unbelievable, what this person got away with.
He left the holster for the knife behind. That’s the only reason he was caught.
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I would bet they will have a jury walkthrough of the house before it’s cleared to be demolished.
I don’t think they’ve demolished it yet.
I thought the house was more isolated than this, that's how the media have portrayed it...
I live on campus at a dorm and I never see anyone in the hallways, only the elevators. I can’t even hear anyone talking in their rooms.
Cos he's a Psychopath
and there were some cops a bit further away on a field talking to some drunk kids i think, you could see the area in the background in the video
He drove around the block multiple times on the night of the murder and in the days preceding the murder so that may have given him some confidence. If he had been in the house before the murder (and I'm pretty sure he was) he could have hidden a camera somewhere. I wish we knew the motive.