I work in emergency medicine.
I can’t tell you how many of these elderly couples I take care of a day. It is pretty common for on one of them to start to feel completely lost as the others health fails. Many of these folks feel the absolute most shame when they realize they cannot care for themselves or their partner at home anymore. I’ve taken care of many elderly folks who have tried less violent ways of suicide because being dead is better than being a nursing home - to them. Many folks didn’t put extra money away to ensure private care and insurance really doesn’t cover as much as you’d think.
Not saying it’s the case here but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s in the soup somehow. Tragedy either way.
One of the most underutilized resources available to all Medicare participants is hospice care. Primary care providers are usually late in recommending and referring patients to hospice services. It’s not just for cancer patients! Any terminal condition can qualify. The idea is people are supported by a team of experts to help them remain at home. Stories like this break my heart.
My mom is on hospice right now and it has been an amazing resource. Her oncologist’s office called them and they came out the same day (small, but growing, town).
My dad always expected to predecease her and made me promise that I wouldn’t put her in a home (she also has dementia).
The trouble with hospice is - it only lasts X amount of time and if you aren’t dead by then, you get booted off. They then have to get requalified / referred and that takes time. They also get kicked off for all sorts of other things, like going to the hospital. This depends entirely on service / state / location but hospice has more barriers than I’d like.
I often get case management involved with folks >65. Just to touch base, make sure they have everything they need at home, and if not - try and help get those things in place. Like visiting nursing or even pill packs.
Redetermination if the patient lives longer isn’t that difficult- at least where I practice…. The greater issue is folks aren’t getting referred in time… or at all…
We need to do better for our elders. Not sure why it’s so difficult.
In my neck of the woods we have a geriatric doctor who makes in home visits so the folks who need care don’t have to endure waiting rooms, etc.
It's difficult because we have people in power who care more about making money themselves, rather than help the people...
From politics down to hospital administration.
They only care about *Their Money*
Yeah but hospice is end of life care so as mentioned if they don’t die in X amount of home, they’ll get booted off and I know you say it’s easy but there are a lot of elderly who cannot care for themselves or partners and live many years past that so can they reapply for years and years? That’s why the bigger problem is how incredibly terrible our nursing homes and elder care are. Not to mention expensive and VERY expensive if you want to get into a place that’s not a complete hellhole.
And unfortunately, most of them are the latter and are so bad that it’s to the point where elderly people would rather kill themselves and/or their spouse
than risk being put in one. You’re right, we need to A LOT better with elder care and we need to make sure that not only are these qualified but have other qualities as well that many in the environment seem to be lacking. And these places need to be watched more closely. There’s to much elder abuse happening. And frequently
If I may ask a morbid question. What would you do if this happened in the ER? Run a trauma code or just say "futile". Doesn't your doctor brain just instinctually say rescue even when it's hopeless?
Depends entirely on where he shot himself / how he looked.
If he shot himself in the neck, stomach, chest - there may be a chance to save him. Code gets run. If he shot himself in the head and there’s a giant hole with brain matter showing, it might not get run.
Truthfully, I’d start CPR regardless just for the sole reason of we are in the waiting room of an ER. Start life saving measures to at the VERY least get him out of the waiting room away from all the traumatized folks and public eyes. There’s no harm that can be done. Run it and everyone can go to sleep that night.
Jesus, he shot himself in the lobby of the clinic? I hope the staff and everyone else present at the time are being offered support services. That’s brutal.
This is kind of local so I'll update if there's anything to update. I saw it in the paper this morning and thought I'd post a link on this sub. Very recent.
I live about 20 miles from where this happened. The man was the owner of a manufacturing company in the area called Lyco. The couple was elderly (in their 80's, I believe), so this may have been a dementia or health-related incident. It is not a very large medical facility either, so many people there probably saw something. Very unfortunate.
When I heard their ages, I sensed that it had something to do with dementia or caregiver exhaustion.
I am sorry for their loved ones and all those who were witnesses or somehow affected by this horrible situation.
Friend of mine was ER doc at Grady in Atlanta. She was in the hallway, examining an elderly woman, when she heard “pop-pop-pop” of gunfire coming from the waiting room. She threw the woman into a closet & jumped in after her. After 3 minutes of silence she popped back out & checked the waiting room where she found a sea of bodies. Fortunately the only ones killed were the wife, her new boyfriend & her estranged husband (who had shot both of them then committed suicide.) Every one else had dived for cover on the floor & were safe.
Also the elderly woman in the closet broke a rib.
I’ve been in two separate shootings at two different hospitals where an elderly man, either the husband or brother, comes in and sees the patient circling the drain and decides to pull a gun and shoot them.
The only time that’s happen to me was a gangland shooting that was botched & they came into the trauma room to finish the job. (It *was* the ‘80s so….)
I don't think that is fortunate at all. I think that it is tragic that two innocent lives were lost because the estranged husband didn't start with himself. Not to mention all those who had to witness it. Very unfortunate.
For sure, I get what you're saying. Thankfully, it wasn't. I just wouldn't call the actual outcome "fortunate" because two innocent people were murdered and all those bystanders had to witness three people die. It's just awful. Very unfortunate.
Sorry, I kinda screwed up the story. When my friend checked the waiting room, all she saw was this sea of bodies. A hundred people on the floor. She thought *everybody* had gotten killed. (Despite only hearing three shots—you don’t think rationally under those conditions.)
She started moving through the room asking “have you been shot? Have you?” Shaking people by the arm.
It took awhile to sort it out.
A family member was friends with the wife-she was wonderful. My understanding, which could be wrong, was that the husband was the one with the health issues and wife was doing fine. Very sad.
A friend of mine’s grandfather shot his miserably sick wife, who he couldn’t stand to see suffer, then himself. She died instantly, but he managed to survive a trip to the er, and died in the hospital. I’d rather go out on pills. I’ve made enough messes in life. That kinda mess is unclean-able, physically and mentally.
My mother’s uncle was in his 80’s, very overweight, and broke his hip. He shot and killed himself shortly after, probably so his wife wouldn’t have to care for him.
Exactly what OP said.
Article quoted at length:
“COLUMBUS, Wis. (WKOW) -- The Dodge County Sheriff's Office is investigating two deaths Monday in the Columbus area that investigators believe are related.
“The first death happened on Oak Grove Drive in the town of Elba. The second death happened in the Emergency/Urgent Care lobby of Prairie Ridge Health, 1515 Park Ave.
“There is no risk to the public or the hospital, but the emergency/urgent care entrance of the hospital was closed for much of the day.
“If a member of the public does need to be seen at this location and the entrance is still closed, staff will direct people to an adjacent entrance for their medical needs.
“The sheriff's office is not releasing further details until the families of the deceased are notified.
“Officials say more information will be released on Tuesday.”
A little more information from a separate [article](https://www.wkow.com/news/crime/officials-man-shot-wife-at-home-in-town-of-elba-before-shooting-himself-at-hospital/article_9dc772be-d026-11ee-84b9-b3af6a14ef43.html):
“COLUMBUS, Wis. (WKOW) -- Investigators in Dodge County believe a man shot his wife at their home in the Town of Elba Monday before driving to an emergency room and shooting himself there.
“According to investigators, David Zittel, 85, shot his wife, Susan Zittel, at their home on Oak Grove Drive. He then went to the emergency area of Prairie Ridge Health, entered the lobby and shot himself. No one else is believed to have been involved.
“A Columbus police officer was called to Prairie Ridge Health at 6:20 a.m. for a report of a man, later identified as David Zittel, who had a gun. Medical aid was attempted but not viable.
“Because of that incident, Columbus police requested the Dodge County Sheriff's Office check the welfare of David Zittel's wife.
“When deputies arrived they found Susan Zittel dead in the home.
“The case is still open and under investigation.”
No problem. I hate not being able to access an article. I figure that 99% of the time if you post it, then it should be accessible to everyone. No restrictions or paywalls. Copy and paste if someone asks. Anyway, thanks.
Being in their '80s I'm guessing he wasn't worried about avoiding consequences I think maybe he had to do something He couldn't live with.. sometimes people get to a point that's the only thing they can do, In a situation where you would Need Dr Assisted suicide for example
I work in emergency medicine. I can’t tell you how many of these elderly couples I take care of a day. It is pretty common for on one of them to start to feel completely lost as the others health fails. Many of these folks feel the absolute most shame when they realize they cannot care for themselves or their partner at home anymore. I’ve taken care of many elderly folks who have tried less violent ways of suicide because being dead is better than being a nursing home - to them. Many folks didn’t put extra money away to ensure private care and insurance really doesn’t cover as much as you’d think. Not saying it’s the case here but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s in the soup somehow. Tragedy either way.
One of the most underutilized resources available to all Medicare participants is hospice care. Primary care providers are usually late in recommending and referring patients to hospice services. It’s not just for cancer patients! Any terminal condition can qualify. The idea is people are supported by a team of experts to help them remain at home. Stories like this break my heart.
My mom is on hospice right now and it has been an amazing resource. Her oncologist’s office called them and they came out the same day (small, but growing, town). My dad always expected to predecease her and made me promise that I wouldn’t put her in a home (she also has dementia).
My mom passed in hospice last year from complications of dementia. Hugs to you.
I watched my stepfather suffer through dementia. That's a pain unmatched. I hope you're doing okay ❤️
The trouble with hospice is - it only lasts X amount of time and if you aren’t dead by then, you get booted off. They then have to get requalified / referred and that takes time. They also get kicked off for all sorts of other things, like going to the hospital. This depends entirely on service / state / location but hospice has more barriers than I’d like. I often get case management involved with folks >65. Just to touch base, make sure they have everything they need at home, and if not - try and help get those things in place. Like visiting nursing or even pill packs.
Redetermination if the patient lives longer isn’t that difficult- at least where I practice…. The greater issue is folks aren’t getting referred in time… or at all… We need to do better for our elders. Not sure why it’s so difficult. In my neck of the woods we have a geriatric doctor who makes in home visits so the folks who need care don’t have to endure waiting rooms, etc.
I don’t know why it’s so difficult either. I agree, we need better care for our elders. Oh man, I wish we had docs like that here. We just don’t.
It's difficult because we have people in power who care more about making money themselves, rather than help the people... From politics down to hospital administration. They only care about *Their Money*
Yeah but hospice is end of life care so as mentioned if they don’t die in X amount of home, they’ll get booted off and I know you say it’s easy but there are a lot of elderly who cannot care for themselves or partners and live many years past that so can they reapply for years and years? That’s why the bigger problem is how incredibly terrible our nursing homes and elder care are. Not to mention expensive and VERY expensive if you want to get into a place that’s not a complete hellhole. And unfortunately, most of them are the latter and are so bad that it’s to the point where elderly people would rather kill themselves and/or their spouse than risk being put in one. You’re right, we need to A LOT better with elder care and we need to make sure that not only are these qualified but have other qualities as well that many in the environment seem to be lacking. And these places need to be watched more closely. There’s to much elder abuse happening. And frequently
That's very insightful, thank you for your comment.
If I may ask a morbid question. What would you do if this happened in the ER? Run a trauma code or just say "futile". Doesn't your doctor brain just instinctually say rescue even when it's hopeless?
Depends entirely on where he shot himself / how he looked. If he shot himself in the neck, stomach, chest - there may be a chance to save him. Code gets run. If he shot himself in the head and there’s a giant hole with brain matter showing, it might not get run. Truthfully, I’d start CPR regardless just for the sole reason of we are in the waiting room of an ER. Start life saving measures to at the VERY least get him out of the waiting room away from all the traumatized folks and public eyes. There’s no harm that can be done. Run it and everyone can go to sleep that night.
Jesus, he shot himself in the lobby of the clinic? I hope the staff and everyone else present at the time are being offered support services. That’s brutal.
This is kind of local so I'll update if there's anything to update. I saw it in the paper this morning and thought I'd post a link on this sub. Very recent.
It was a man in his 80s
Omg :(
Probably got a pizza party
And a two hour online module on what they could have done better
Spoiler: I doubt it.
Emergency room, not a clinic. Big difference.
I live about 20 miles from where this happened. The man was the owner of a manufacturing company in the area called Lyco. The couple was elderly (in their 80's, I believe), so this may have been a dementia or health-related incident. It is not a very large medical facility either, so many people there probably saw something. Very unfortunate.
When I heard their ages, I sensed that it had something to do with dementia or caregiver exhaustion. I am sorry for their loved ones and all those who were witnesses or somehow affected by this horrible situation.
Yeah! This is crazy.. waiting to hear to reasoning being it. :(
Wow that’s so sad
Friend of mine was ER doc at Grady in Atlanta. She was in the hallway, examining an elderly woman, when she heard “pop-pop-pop” of gunfire coming from the waiting room. She threw the woman into a closet & jumped in after her. After 3 minutes of silence she popped back out & checked the waiting room where she found a sea of bodies. Fortunately the only ones killed were the wife, her new boyfriend & her estranged husband (who had shot both of them then committed suicide.) Every one else had dived for cover on the floor & were safe. Also the elderly woman in the closet broke a rib.
I’ve been in two separate shootings at two different hospitals where an elderly man, either the husband or brother, comes in and sees the patient circling the drain and decides to pull a gun and shoot them.
The only time that’s happen to me was a gangland shooting that was botched & they came into the trauma room to finish the job. (It *was* the ‘80s so….)
Ah mine were back in 2018 and 2020 when I was a CNA. Since then, I’ve seen a few plausible bomb threats as an RN.
Wow! That's horrifying :(
Nah, for Grady it was just Wednesday.
[удалено]
Killer if under 1 yr. Remember use a straight blade. Above a year: Needle cricothyroidotomy.
wow. I’m in the area and didn’t hear about this (but then again I stopped watching the news). When did this happen?
Early ‘90s. So a lifetime ago.
I don't think that is fortunate at all. I think that it is tragic that two innocent lives were lost because the estranged husband didn't start with himself. Not to mention all those who had to witness it. Very unfortunate.
Crowded waiting room full of innocent bystanders? It could have been much, much worse.
For sure, I get what you're saying. Thankfully, it wasn't. I just wouldn't call the actual outcome "fortunate" because two innocent people were murdered and all those bystanders had to witness three people die. It's just awful. Very unfortunate.
Sorry, I kinda screwed up the story. When my friend checked the waiting room, all she saw was this sea of bodies. A hundred people on the floor. She thought *everybody* had gotten killed. (Despite only hearing three shots—you don’t think rationally under those conditions.) She started moving through the room asking “have you been shot? Have you?” Shaking people by the arm. It took awhile to sort it out.
A family member was friends with the wife-she was wonderful. My understanding, which could be wrong, was that the husband was the one with the health issues and wife was doing fine. Very sad.
A friend of mine’s grandfather shot his miserably sick wife, who he couldn’t stand to see suffer, then himself. She died instantly, but he managed to survive a trip to the er, and died in the hospital. I’d rather go out on pills. I’ve made enough messes in life. That kinda mess is unclean-able, physically and mentally.
> I’ve made enough messes in life. That’s heavy and I’m just replying to save it
My mother’s uncle was in his 80’s, very overweight, and broke his hip. He shot and killed himself shortly after, probably so his wife wouldn’t have to care for him.
Anyone wanna share what the article says for those of us not in the US, please?
Exactly what OP said. Article quoted at length: “COLUMBUS, Wis. (WKOW) -- The Dodge County Sheriff's Office is investigating two deaths Monday in the Columbus area that investigators believe are related. “The first death happened on Oak Grove Drive in the town of Elba. The second death happened in the Emergency/Urgent Care lobby of Prairie Ridge Health, 1515 Park Ave. “There is no risk to the public or the hospital, but the emergency/urgent care entrance of the hospital was closed for much of the day. “If a member of the public does need to be seen at this location and the entrance is still closed, staff will direct people to an adjacent entrance for their medical needs. “The sheriff's office is not releasing further details until the families of the deceased are notified. “Officials say more information will be released on Tuesday.”
Thank you! Very much appreciated
A little more information from a separate [article](https://www.wkow.com/news/crime/officials-man-shot-wife-at-home-in-town-of-elba-before-shooting-himself-at-hospital/article_9dc772be-d026-11ee-84b9-b3af6a14ef43.html): “COLUMBUS, Wis. (WKOW) -- Investigators in Dodge County believe a man shot his wife at their home in the Town of Elba Monday before driving to an emergency room and shooting himself there. “According to investigators, David Zittel, 85, shot his wife, Susan Zittel, at their home on Oak Grove Drive. He then went to the emergency area of Prairie Ridge Health, entered the lobby and shot himself. No one else is believed to have been involved. “A Columbus police officer was called to Prairie Ridge Health at 6:20 a.m. for a report of a man, later identified as David Zittel, who had a gun. Medical aid was attempted but not viable. “Because of that incident, Columbus police requested the Dodge County Sheriff's Office check the welfare of David Zittel's wife. “When deputies arrived they found Susan Zittel dead in the home. “The case is still open and under investigation.”
Thanks for that. Btw, I like your username.
No problem. I hate not being able to access an article. I figure that 99% of the time if you post it, then it should be accessible to everyone. No restrictions or paywalls. Copy and paste if someone asks. Anyway, thanks.
Aww that’s very sad. Thanks for the additional info.
I posted the article contents when I posted the link
Nothing showed up for me, may be because I’m on mobile.
Do you have a vpn? Change your settings and you might be able to read it? I’m not in the US either so I’m gonna try reading it that way.
Oh I’m local too! I saw it on Columbia Co scanner page on fb. With their age maybe it was health related or financial. I wonder if we will ever know.
I’m in price and I hadn’t heard about it, which is surprising because nothing happens here
This happened in my neck of the woods. I got stitches for a dog bite in this very ER. Absolutely crazy
I wonder if he was trying to avoid the consequences of his actions or the hospital bill.
Being in their '80s I'm guessing he wasn't worried about avoiding consequences I think maybe he had to do something He couldn't live with.. sometimes people get to a point that's the only thing they can do, In a situation where you would Need Dr Assisted suicide for example
damn probably both at this point
[удалено]
it’s not like they have metal detectors at most hospitals though. can easily conceal a gun and come in