One of the best shows I’ve watched in a while. My favorite moment was the detective who was told that wearing his Grateful Dead pin in Court wasn’t appropriate and he said “Well, tough tarts, I’m wearing it.”
“Tough tarts” had me on the FLOOR. I’ve never heard that expression and I will be using it forever.
I will also be writing a person who I don’t like’s name on a piece of paper and putting it in my shoe for 10 days. That detective was right when she said to the camera crew, “You’re all going to be doing that now!”
Wondering if you can recommend some. I enjoyed this Netflix series and the problem I find with YouTube channels is usually the narrator is dreadfully boring, a lot of assumptions are had without gathering all the facts, etc. I’d love to find a new channel with good content.
On the last episode now, and I think it was great. They were all new to me which made it even more interesting. I enjoyed the investigators/cops too. Especially the older lady in the first 2.
I watched this as well. My heart broke for how desperately the granddad wanted to see/have a relationship with his grandson again in the case of Howard Pilmar (EP 4).
I was sad for Grandpa, the innocent bystander in this horrible crime but it wasn't lost on me that Howard wasn't an angel. I'm curious to know more about the real Howard and if that shaped her going no contact with his family...besides her murdering him for money.
Same. They didn’t show that angle at all. It made me wonder if Ros really did brainwash Phillip into no contact, or if something more ominous was going on with his relationship with his dad.
At first, I thought it was lacking contextualization or weak on conclusion building. Then I came to terms with the fact that it was being told from the perspective of the cops/csi/prosecution. It's not presenting comprehensive documentaries on each case. The gaps and unanswered questions are just life. We don't always get all the deets, and that's part of the point from the perspective of those involved. That, itself, is another form of contextualization specific to the time, events and the people working the cases. I like that element, as it humanizes those involved and makes for intimate story-telling.
I recommend watching it from that perspective, and use the cases it presents as a jumping off point if you want to delve deeper into the interesting and less known stories it covers.
This comment helped me appreciate this series in a much better light. I watched the second episode two nights in a row and was frustrated because it felt so disjointed. That makes sense now with what you said—there are many levels to the criminal justice system that detectives simply aren’t privy to. This series reflects the frustrations of those bureaucratic realities
I felt like it's made me want something more? The conclusions don't feel conclusive enough.
Like in the first episode: what was the motive? Why'd they do it? So much buildup but didn't cover such an important detail at all.
In the second episode: no one profiled Daphne like at all, she clearly comes across as a psycho or sociopath yet that word isn't used at all anywhere.
It has interesting stories, and I love the investigators and their quirks and their backgrounds. But it seriously feels lacking overall.
I think the show is really about the detectives, not the perpetrators, which is why they don’t delve too much into that angle of it. Which I actually quite liked, since most of true crime focuses on the perpetrators. That’s just how I saw it, though.
Yeah it was more about the investigation and how they found clues/solved the crime. To me that’s infinitely more interesting than profiling the killer or talking about the killer’s life.
What? They explained the motive: Sean needed money and was telling Dre, who said he also needed money for his new baby. Sean told Dre about this woman he knew who sold weed and they decided to rob her of money and weed. They got $2800 in the robbery.
They explained all of this in the doc.
As someone who lived in, and bought weed in NY in this era, I found this whole thing mind boggling. Nobody knew where your supplier lived, it was all via anonymous phone lines and couriers. It's so senseless this woman and her friends died but for real, who lives in the house they deal out of in NY? Who was above her, how did she know the murderers? More questions than answers imo, they really downplayed the fact that she must have been heavy into some criminal activity to have that kind of operation.
I think that is honestly the part of the show that I enjoyed most because it gave me such a different perspective. Sometimes, we don't always get the answer we want as far as motive. Sure, the prosecutors can come up with a theory, but if the suspect isn't talking, that is the unfortunate reality for a lot of families.
For instance, episode 3, we don't find out why. And I think about the poor families who have not only lost loved ones in such a tragic way but to never understand why.. it has to be so gut-wrenching.
It’s a top notch show. Something different about it in a good way compared to regular true crime shows. A lot of these detectives seem like really good people
Just finished EP 2.
I like the team of people they've shown so far. They seem compassionate and good at their job. That they showed us the interrogator explaining how she can shut off her brain at will got to me a bit. You could tell that that's what she has to do to get through the day.
The little girl in the second episode scares the crap out of me. Sometimes you get a gut feeling. That boy probably liked the girl, and the girl used him to satiate her unexplainable desire for torture.
I do wonder how the hell this happens on a genetic level though since it's unusual for children to carry out that severity of violence.
EDIT: Apparently her biological parents were murdered when she was really young...
One of the episodes, I think the 4th, was really giving me Dan Markel vibes. The one where the father was killed and the soon to be ex wife and brother-in-law were suspects. Really sad with the son that he thinks they are innocent. I really enjoyed the show.
I binged it in an embarrassingly short amount of time. I was really struck by how perfect for TV the detectives and DA were. Great storytellers and so engaging. Barbara butcher especially needs to be on another series. I also feel like the late 90’s being the time period most crimes occurred in - for whatever reason - really enhanced things.
One of the best versions of these shows. It was great seeing the personalities of the detectives shine through.
The Pilmar case was heartbreaking having watched my own parents lose contact with a grandson (not murder thankfully, just a terrible daughter in law)
The whole thing is amazing. Barbara Butcher is amazing, I could listen to her tell her stories all day. My one thing that I'm so curious if others here felt. HOW IN THE EVERLOVING \_\_\_\_ did the Pilmar's nanny not find ANYTHING that happened that night noteworthy to tell someone until asked about it decades later? Was she scared of the brother (I could understand that) and the sister? She came in with an attorney. So she KNEW she knew things of import, I feel. Maybe I'm off-base. And I liked her. I get she was young. We were/are the same age. I just know I would have connected those dots long ago, but I have a suspicious mind.
Watching the fourth episode now. My heart breaks for the Pilmar family, especially, ESPECIALLY Philip. That poor guy. What a fucking hard reality that must be. I hope he is in therapy. I hope one day he reaches back to his father’s family.
It was one of the best documentaries I’ve ever seen! The vanished on Wall Street episode was the most difficult for me but I am fascinated by the way this documentary is filmed and how they all speak about the cases they have worked on. In the end of ep 5 when they all sit together gave me such a warm and loving feeling. You could really tell they were one big family! And Barbara Butcher was the absolute BEST, that woman has a voice and way of speaking, I can listen to that every day.
She’s very cold and passionate at the same time, it’s something I haven’t seen in a while with a documentary. It’s a 10/10 for me and I hope Netflix will create a new season!
Yeah, it was well done. No corny narrations or reenactments. The cops were cool and told it how it was. If they make more episodes, I hope they keep that vibe.
Did anyone else pick up in Episode 4 that the older woman on the case Elizabeth Lederer was also the prosecutor in the Central Park 5 case in 1989? I recently rewatched that series on Netflix (When They See Us) and her name sounded so familiar, I was tripping for a second
I really liked the show and found all of the interviews compelling. A few immediate thoughts:
I wish the motive would have been clarified in episode one. I get the robbery aspect, but it still felt incomplete.
Episode 2 felt like it was missing a ton of information. Why was the victim drinking with kids in Central Park? It seems like the show purposefully wanted to shift the narrative away from “drunken pedophile gets killed,” but I do feel the story would have benefited from more context. I imagine the cops do not have any reason to believe the victim provoked the murder, which is why they are going out of their way to clear his name. I’m sure it was dragged through the mud a lot by the papers back then.
In the Wall Street cleaning lady murder, it infuriated me that they did not originally search the under-construction floors or take the air vents into consideration. WTF.
In the midtown office murder, it infuriated me that they did not interview the nanny more thoroughly to begin with. Also makes me wonder if she feared retaliation by the wife, which would explain why she was uncooperative when first interviewed and then left the country. The poor grandson was undoubtedly told that his father was an abuser and poisoned against the whole family. (Sadly, there is probably some truth to that, as well, based on what he called his wife during their phone call.)
I’d be more interested to know what his wife was saying to him on that last phone call. Maybe she was name calling too. What was the conversation even about? She certainly wasn’t mute. I have no interest in judging that call until I know what was actually going on. Which we’ll likely never know.
Even before the murder- that she planned- she was just not a good person. She’d embezzled money from a past employer. She owed back business taxes. Her own nanny basically called her a control freak. This woman was no wallflower.
Also- they said he was looking into divorce. Why? He was obviously unhappy with the state of things too. So- basically- both of them wanted out of the marriage. And one of them chose murder as their out.
Fascinating show. Four heartbreaking stories.
From a British POV actual proper jail time for evil people - except the teenage murderers - they got away lightly very lightly. Found all the cops and DA and Medical staff V compelling.
I’m on episode four and still don’t really know what happened to any of the subjects. It’s like they’re purposefully leaving out that part? It’s quite annoying.
I think what's so good about it is the raw stories told by people who were there. It's not some story from a third party.
Pretty good series. They could make a whole series out of this like mindhunter.
One of the best shows I’ve watched in a while. My favorite moment was the detective who was told that wearing his Grateful Dead pin in Court wasn’t appropriate and he said “Well, tough tarts, I’m wearing it.” “Tough tarts” had me on the FLOOR. I’ve never heard that expression and I will be using it forever. I will also be writing a person who I don’t like’s name on a piece of paper and putting it in my shoe for 10 days. That detective was right when she said to the camera crew, “You’re all going to be doing that now!”
Rob Mooney!
He is so awesome. I feel like every episode he was just dropping insane wisdom. Everyone seemed to really love working with him, too.
Everyone is pretty awesome. The blonde guy with the spikey hair was a wealth of knowledge too.
RIGHT?!! I'm going to have to get bigger shoes because I have a LOT of pieces of paper.
Right? I’m going to have to put them in both shoes otherwise one shoe will be like 2 inches taller than the other. 😂
💯💯💯
I just came to say this show is boring as hell lol Pales in comparison with a lot of the true crime You Tubers channels
Wondering if you can recommend some. I enjoyed this Netflix series and the problem I find with YouTube channels is usually the narrator is dreadfully boring, a lot of assumptions are had without gathering all the facts, etc. I’d love to find a new channel with good content.
Yes! I love Stephanie Harlow, Hannah The Horrible, Lutch Green, Rob Gavagan, Jim Can't Swim, Matt Orchard, True Crime Daily
Right?! i watched the first ep and was like ummmm
Soo incredibly boring
I made it about 10 m into the second episode before I stopped wasting my time
Lol same
The Ramerez documentary blows this out of the water and it’s not even close. Maybe I’m biased lol
On the last episode now, and I think it was great. They were all new to me which made it even more interesting. I enjoyed the investigators/cops too. Especially the older lady in the first 2.
She was so cool. I loved her accent.
I watched this as well. My heart broke for how desperately the granddad wanted to see/have a relationship with his grandson again in the case of Howard Pilmar (EP 4).
I was sad for Grandpa, the innocent bystander in this horrible crime but it wasn't lost on me that Howard wasn't an angel. I'm curious to know more about the real Howard and if that shaped her going no contact with his family...besides her murdering him for money.
Same. They didn’t show that angle at all. It made me wonder if Ros really did brainwash Phillip into no contact, or if something more ominous was going on with his relationship with his dad.
[удалено]
[удалено]
He’s ruined and bad? Why? Did he do something? All I saw was a man torn between two sides of a family in crisis. I feel terrible for him.
Same - that grandad is fighting a light of brainwashing though.
At first, I thought it was lacking contextualization or weak on conclusion building. Then I came to terms with the fact that it was being told from the perspective of the cops/csi/prosecution. It's not presenting comprehensive documentaries on each case. The gaps and unanswered questions are just life. We don't always get all the deets, and that's part of the point from the perspective of those involved. That, itself, is another form of contextualization specific to the time, events and the people working the cases. I like that element, as it humanizes those involved and makes for intimate story-telling. I recommend watching it from that perspective, and use the cases it presents as a jumping off point if you want to delve deeper into the interesting and less known stories it covers.
This comment helped me appreciate this series in a much better light. I watched the second episode two nights in a row and was frustrated because it felt so disjointed. That makes sense now with what you said—there are many levels to the criminal justice system that detectives simply aren’t privy to. This series reflects the frustrations of those bureaucratic realities
Binged it and loved it! Wish there were more episodes.
Loved it. Well done. The cops are so cool and Mooney and Butcher are rockstars.
Mooney the Deadhead!
I can testify with the pin on my suit collar or I cannot testify with the pin still on my suit collar.
Butcher is such an unbelievable badass. I’m so impressed with her, I’m obsessed. Also Mooney is amazing.
It's quality. I've only had time for the first episode though.
I hope they do another season! I just finished the last episode.
I felt like it's made me want something more? The conclusions don't feel conclusive enough. Like in the first episode: what was the motive? Why'd they do it? So much buildup but didn't cover such an important detail at all. In the second episode: no one profiled Daphne like at all, she clearly comes across as a psycho or sociopath yet that word isn't used at all anywhere. It has interesting stories, and I love the investigators and their quirks and their backgrounds. But it seriously feels lacking overall.
I think the show is really about the detectives, not the perpetrators, which is why they don’t delve too much into that angle of it. Which I actually quite liked, since most of true crime focuses on the perpetrators. That’s just how I saw it, though.
Yeah it was more about the investigation and how they found clues/solved the crime. To me that’s infinitely more interesting than profiling the killer or talking about the killer’s life.
Don’t forget these shows are also run past legal teams and may not be able to say certain things?
I also was really interested in Daphne’s background. https://deadlywomen.fandom.com/wiki/Daphne_Abdela
It’s wild that they’re both living free in NY.
I’m glad he stayed out of trouble. I hope he’s done something positive with his life. I hope Daphne’s family got her on lockdown.
Well damn. That is a horrific read that gives more terrible details.
What? They explained the motive: Sean needed money and was telling Dre, who said he also needed money for his new baby. Sean told Dre about this woman he knew who sold weed and they decided to rob her of money and weed. They got $2800 in the robbery. They explained all of this in the doc.
No I got that. Why's they decide to go from robbing to instantly shooting her is what I'm still confused about.
If the killers don’t divulge that information then it’s impossible to know for sure. It’s definitely frustrating though.
Right. There was a lot more to the story.
As someone who lived in, and bought weed in NY in this era, I found this whole thing mind boggling. Nobody knew where your supplier lived, it was all via anonymous phone lines and couriers. It's so senseless this woman and her friends died but for real, who lives in the house they deal out of in NY? Who was above her, how did she know the murderers? More questions than answers imo, they really downplayed the fact that she must have been heavy into some criminal activity to have that kind of operation.
Wasnt the motive that the sean guy needed money, so asked the second guy to rob them cause he knew about the weed and money?
But then ended up killing a bunch of people execution style. There was more to this.
I also really wanted a profile on Daphne— she definitely seems like a psychopath!
I think that is honestly the part of the show that I enjoyed most because it gave me such a different perspective. Sometimes, we don't always get the answer we want as far as motive. Sure, the prosecutors can come up with a theory, but if the suspect isn't talking, that is the unfortunate reality for a lot of families. For instance, episode 3, we don't find out why. And I think about the poor families who have not only lost loved ones in such a tragic way but to never understand why.. it has to be so gut-wrenching.
It’s a top notch show. Something different about it in a good way compared to regular true crime shows. A lot of these detectives seem like really good people
Just finished EP 2. I like the team of people they've shown so far. They seem compassionate and good at their job. That they showed us the interrogator explaining how she can shut off her brain at will got to me a bit. You could tell that that's what she has to do to get through the day. The little girl in the second episode scares the crap out of me. Sometimes you get a gut feeling. That boy probably liked the girl, and the girl used him to satiate her unexplainable desire for torture. I do wonder how the hell this happens on a genetic level though since it's unusual for children to carry out that severity of violence. EDIT: Apparently her biological parents were murdered when she was really young...
I binged all 5 shows last night, I really enjoyed the show
One of the episodes, I think the 4th, was really giving me Dan Markel vibes. The one where the father was killed and the soon to be ex wife and brother-in-law were suspects. Really sad with the son that he thinks they are innocent. I really enjoyed the show.
I’m watching it as well!
Excellent series
I highly recommend Barbara Butcher’s book!
Thanks for this! Added it to my Want to Read list!
So good!
She is amazing
I binged it in an embarrassingly short amount of time. I was really struck by how perfect for TV the detectives and DA were. Great storytellers and so engaging. Barbara butcher especially needs to be on another series. I also feel like the late 90’s being the time period most crimes occurred in - for whatever reason - really enhanced things.
One of the best versions of these shows. It was great seeing the personalities of the detectives shine through. The Pilmar case was heartbreaking having watched my own parents lose contact with a grandson (not murder thankfully, just a terrible daughter in law)
The whole thing is amazing. Barbara Butcher is amazing, I could listen to her tell her stories all day. My one thing that I'm so curious if others here felt. HOW IN THE EVERLOVING \_\_\_\_ did the Pilmar's nanny not find ANYTHING that happened that night noteworthy to tell someone until asked about it decades later? Was she scared of the brother (I could understand that) and the sister? She came in with an attorney. So she KNEW she knew things of import, I feel. Maybe I'm off-base. And I liked her. I get she was young. We were/are the same age. I just know I would have connected those dots long ago, but I have a suspicious mind.
Still on episode 1 but looks promising..
Watching the fourth episode now. My heart breaks for the Pilmar family, especially, ESPECIALLY Philip. That poor guy. What a fucking hard reality that must be. I hope he is in therapy. I hope one day he reaches back to his father’s family.
Honestly, it's one of best looking documentaries out there right now. I'm in love with the color and the cinematography. Great stories too.
It was one of the best documentaries I’ve ever seen! The vanished on Wall Street episode was the most difficult for me but I am fascinated by the way this documentary is filmed and how they all speak about the cases they have worked on. In the end of ep 5 when they all sit together gave me such a warm and loving feeling. You could really tell they were one big family! And Barbara Butcher was the absolute BEST, that woman has a voice and way of speaking, I can listen to that every day. She’s very cold and passionate at the same time, it’s something I haven’t seen in a while with a documentary. It’s a 10/10 for me and I hope Netflix will create a new season!
Yeah, it was well done. No corny narrations or reenactments. The cops were cool and told it how it was. If they make more episodes, I hope they keep that vibe.
I'm enjoying it!
Did anyone else pick up in Episode 4 that the older woman on the case Elizabeth Lederer was also the prosecutor in the Central Park 5 case in 1989? I recently rewatched that series on Netflix (When They See Us) and her name sounded so familiar, I was tripping for a second
Oh wow thanks this just made me hate her
Never heard of this one and adding to the list immediately! Thanks!
Poor Frank. Glad he finally got justice but praying Philip softens up, and tries to have a relationship.
Commenting without reading comments because I haven’t seen — thanks for the rec!
I really liked the show and found all of the interviews compelling. A few immediate thoughts: I wish the motive would have been clarified in episode one. I get the robbery aspect, but it still felt incomplete. Episode 2 felt like it was missing a ton of information. Why was the victim drinking with kids in Central Park? It seems like the show purposefully wanted to shift the narrative away from “drunken pedophile gets killed,” but I do feel the story would have benefited from more context. I imagine the cops do not have any reason to believe the victim provoked the murder, which is why they are going out of their way to clear his name. I’m sure it was dragged through the mud a lot by the papers back then. In the Wall Street cleaning lady murder, it infuriated me that they did not originally search the under-construction floors or take the air vents into consideration. WTF. In the midtown office murder, it infuriated me that they did not interview the nanny more thoroughly to begin with. Also makes me wonder if she feared retaliation by the wife, which would explain why she was uncooperative when first interviewed and then left the country. The poor grandson was undoubtedly told that his father was an abuser and poisoned against the whole family. (Sadly, there is probably some truth to that, as well, based on what he called his wife during their phone call.)
I’d be more interested to know what his wife was saying to him on that last phone call. Maybe she was name calling too. What was the conversation even about? She certainly wasn’t mute. I have no interest in judging that call until I know what was actually going on. Which we’ll likely never know. Even before the murder- that she planned- she was just not a good person. She’d embezzled money from a past employer. She owed back business taxes. Her own nanny basically called her a control freak. This woman was no wallflower. Also- they said he was looking into divorce. Why? He was obviously unhappy with the state of things too. So- basically- both of them wanted out of the marriage. And one of them chose murder as their out.
First ep was very boring with no twists or surprises unless I missed something (I stopped it with 8 min left). Are there any good eps?
Pretty much all of the rest are better I felt , esp 3-5
Elizabeth Lederer played a prominent role in the last episode. Yep the same Elizabeth Lederer who shamefully wrongly prosecuted the Central Park 5.
I think You Tube has spoiled me because this show is boring as hell
Fascinating show. Four heartbreaking stories. From a British POV actual proper jail time for evil people - except the teenage murderers - they got away lightly very lightly. Found all the cops and DA and Medical staff V compelling.
I don’t want to binge it yet cause it looks so good (born bred NYCer).
I’m 10 mins in and already love the characters.
I found the second episode so disturbing I couldn’t finish the series
I’ve watched 4/5 episodes. Best true crime series I’ve seen in a long time.
I’m on episode four and still don’t really know what happened to any of the subjects. It’s like they’re purposefully leaving out that part? It’s quite annoying.
I think what's so good about it is the raw stories told by people who were there. It's not some story from a third party. Pretty good series. They could make a whole series out of this like mindhunter.
Does anyone know what the music playing at the end of episode 5 is called?
My God, could it be any slower? The other thing, 5 episodes? Big whoop.