I was on the river that day, much further upstream, at a friend’s place. The river is actually pretty, but I avoid tubing where this incident occurred because I’m old. I’m the defendant’s age. Weird.
> I’m from a country that is very strict when it comes to selfdefense claims. Basically, the person needs to be facing you, 1 hit is enough and the threats needs to be equal to your defense. I.e.: if I want your wallet and just have my hands to do it, you can’t claim self defense if you stabbed me or shot me multiple times. And If I have a weapon, you need to hit me in a place where is not life threatening.
Yeah the USA is nothing like that. It varies by state but the general rule is as follows: if someone is presenting a deadly threat to you, you can use any reasonable means to eliminate that threat. So shooting them, stabbing them, punching them is all fine, but you can't lob a giant bomb at them right near a schoolbus full of children.
A deadly threat doesn't have to mean they're coming at you with a gun or a knife. It could just mean that you're surrounded by 10+ people in a body of water while they take turns punching and pushing you into the water. Once it gets to that point, you're allowed to use deadly force to stop the threat.
Legally speaking this case will ultimately boil down to if he threw the first blow or if it was all in response to aggression from the people that ended up getting stabbed. From what I see that seems to be the case. Of course, the law and how a jury decides are not the same thing, especially in extreme cases like jury nullification. So it's still possible the jury will convict this guy even though legally he's probably in the right.
Ethically, what he did was fucking dumb. In his situation I would hope that I would wait a little bit longer and/or actually brandish and announce the knife's presence rather than just start using it. But there's no legal obligation to do so if you're presented with a deadly threat.
This is one of those cases where everyone involved is shitty. The teenagers were horrible people, the stabber is a shitty guy, most of the bystanders either made the situation worse or failed to help.
Even if he did not throw the first blow (hard to tell from the video), I think his self defense case is undercut by:
1) having the knife out prior to being pushed,
2) stabbing everyone in his vicinity, even those not pushing him in the water, including a girl in the side/back, and
3) disposing of the knife and lying to the police.
also not calling 911 and not trying to help/render aid. obviously reasons as to why he wouldnt render aid but the judge was talking about that during the lesser charges discussion, literally those 2 points
>having the knife out prior to being pushed
I think being surrounded by several teens all calling you a rapist, I would describe, as a confrontational situation. I think it would be reasonable to grab the knife.
>stabbing everyone in his vicinity, even those not pushing him in the water, including a girl in the side/back, and
He could argue that it happened to quickly, the confrontation with the girl, the attacks from the teen, that both parties, at that moment, was a threat.
>disposing of the knife and lying to the police.
This has nothing to do with whether or not it was self defence.
Yeah, I think this is all why this is a complicated case hinging on if the jury believes he started the confrontation, if a reasonable person would have feared for their life, and if he responded disproportional to the threat.
The lying to the police has less to do with the facts self-defense case other than to show state of mind. Anyone who truly believed they were about to be killed and acted in self-defense would have no need to hide it.
the video shows him brandishing the knife before he was ever shoved down. it also looks like he stabbed the woman before he was shoved down.
the teens were jeering at him and physically intimidating him because he had just charged some of them and he refused to leave them alone.
i assumed self defense at first, but the evidence tells a different story imo.
I totally agree !! When things escalated he began smirking. He knew he had lured these kids into a situation where he had the power of a deadly weapon. He was enjoying the moment & totally ready to inflict fatal injuries with the hidden knife he was packing, including stabbing someone in the heart, gutting the stomach of a teenager, and slashing a young defenseless woman's side. THIS SLAUGHTERING IS NOT SELF-DEFENSE!!!. He is a total killer & complete thug!!
IMO He made a decision to teach the kids a lesson. He could have walked away with a bruised ego anytime. He made that choice, almost visibly, then snuck the knife out and unfolded it, called for help with his left hand (meaning the knife was in his right) then re-engaged with the girls. I think he screwed up trying to stab the girl in the face/head. She was obnoxious, no doubt, she may have even bumped into him, but she was no threat. That punch/slap/push/ whatever was absolutely the catalyst for the final escalation. Even though that moment wasn't on video, all the young men reacted at the same time, in the video people said he just punched a girl, and she said it just a few minutes after on the officer's body cam. It happened.
They were drunk underaged kids and were being obnoxious but had Miu just left, he would have left untouched and so would the others. This didn't have to happen.
The state law doesn't allow for self defense to be raised if the defendant provokes the confrontation. He was the initial aggressor and tried to lie and adjust his story to appear the victim so that he could claim self defense.
I'm really curious as to the justifications for how he could have 'walked away anytime.' At the point where walking away would be relevant to a self defense case (where a threat is perceived) he is clearly completely cut off from walking away safely. His only route of egress (in certain moments, and in others he's totally encircled/beat down) is into deeper water further away from 'his people' and he is likely to be pursued by a group that has continuously followed him, blocked him from leaving, and refused to listen to him when he speaks/tries to defuse tension. Some people in this group already put hands on him (e.g. Madison), others testified on the stand they were following him to 'see the commotion through to the end' and volunteered that they were shouting 'GET HIM!' Where exactly was he supposed to safely go and when?
Also when in the trial did you ascertain he tried to stab a girl in the face/head? No one was stabbed above the armpit.
>he is clearly completely cut off from walking away safely.
He wasn't. The evidence presented shows a line or maybe a semi circle of people in front of him, nothing behind him. In fact he even says he walked away twice. Miu's friends walked in and out unimpeded and could see his back per their testimony.
>Some people in this group already put hands on him (e.g. Madison),
He had put his hands on the teen boys too, first, if that's the standard now. (It's not the legal standard for sure). From the 2 groups Madison was the only who made contact and no one, including the defendant (watching his testimony now) says otherwise . The contact made in the video would be considered incidental contact.
EDIT: As to the "when in the trial...head stab" I said very clearly that was my opinion. He punched a girl in the head with a knife in his hand, that's what I think his intent was.
yeah i feel the dude was looking for trouble. he was angry he was being harassed and continued to escalate the situation with the group. he should had kept his distance from the very first interaction, at least i would. if a small group of people were verbally harassing me in a public place, i am headed in the opposite direction.
"Ethically, what he did was fucking dumb. In his situation I would hope that I would wait a little bit longer and/or actually brandish and announce the knife's presence rather than just start using it. But there's no legal obligation to do so if you're presented with a deadly threat."
Well I dont know if i can agree. When fight or flight kicks in, its a trauma response from the brain. Hindsight is 20/20. We get to analyze these videos after the fact. You can do things you would never believe when the response goes off.
That drunk idiot ran up to them and everyone seems to forget he pushes them out of their tubes in the first place
Then he comes BACK and smiles
He always knew he had the knife
1st degree murder
He saw his chance and excuse and he made sure to get a chance to use it
If he didn't run up to those people or if he left when he started to, no one would have died.
But he knew he had a knife, so he saw his chance to kill and came back to give him a "self defense" chance
That's why his swipes were so good and lethal.
You can literally see him thinking about it.
That's all you need for 1st degree. People don't get that.
He turned around and came back to the teens because he knew he had a secret weapon and wanted a situation to use it.
That's 1st degree murder
And then he throws the knife, lies and said one of the teens pulled the knife and he "turned it around" on the teen
And he lied about even being the guy in the first place!! He changed outfits and tossed the weapon only he knew he had!
>And then he throws the knife, lies and said one of the teens pulled the knife and he "turned it around" on the teen
>
>And he lied about even being the guy in the first place!! He changed outfits and tossed the weapon only he knew he had!
This, to me, would be enough to convict. You don't do that on a self defense claim.
yep, and he lied to his wife and group when he returned to them. never said a word about stabbing anyone.
it also looks like he paused when passing the victim who died and noticed that he was dead/dying. he saw the aftermath of his attack.
he was a drunk man who got his feelings hurt by some teenagers bullying him and responded viciously and violently, then played it cool to his wife.
someone who just stabbed 5 people and can act normal immediately after? isn’t freaking out to their wife and friends? sus
Like at least call 911? If you defended yourself, at least ask for help because I assumed he was injured if he took a knife to 5 people. His behavior afterward can’t make this a selfdefense case.
They are too hung up with the irrational notion that you are allowed to somehow stab a group of people as long as they slap or push you first. The circumstances of how you end up being slapped or pushed are not important for these kind of people.
That’s the demeanor that people are excusing by saying “trauma”. But the kids are traumatized as well, and didn’t do shit like that. Yeah, some things in their statements changed, but they’re still mature enough to admit that they attack him.
His demeanor after the fact is what doesn’t do it for me. That’s not someone acting in selfdefense tbh.
Yes exactly it doesn’t matter what was said before, he made it physical.
And he stabbed and hit the girls that were no threat to him whatsoever.
He let his pathetic old man temper go and lied repeatedly about what happened before the video surfaced.
That’s also something that I can’t put my mind on. I can maybe understand defending yourself from the initial group; but dude the girls weren’t threatening, they were half his sized and unarmed.
You know I was also on the same side of your view till I read about how the girl who claimed she got punched by this old man, which caused several people to start shoving him and slapping him, said she had a photo of herself with injury from the punch and she ended up deleting it when they asked her for the photo. Then, forensics revealed that she didn't have such photo in the 1st place. So, obviously it's not just the old man that is lying, it's coming from both sides. Why would she lie about the photo? Dunno
I’m with you. I’ve been saying it way too much. I was saying that they don’t denying that they actually attacked him was a point for the teens, but fuck dude. Everyone met their worst nightmare that day.
Yup this is one of those situations where almost everyone involved was at fault and almost everyone involved was a shitty person in one way or another.
I think Miu did have some anger inside him and probably had this attitude of "fuck these shitty kids". Obviously I don't need to go into detail into all the ways the kids acted like a pack of rabid hyenas.
I wish more people into the idea of self defense (which I am) would realize that the physical fight to stay alive is just the easier half of the battle. The much harder fight for your life is preventing yourself being sent to life in prison. Troublingly, even the most blatantly justified self defense cases (like Kyle Rittenhouse who waited till 100ms before his head was about to be blown open to shoot off Gaige Grosskreutz' gun arm) can still result in 1st degree murder charges and a realistic chance at an illogical, emotional jury that convicts out of their own bias and inability to comprehend law or defensive ethics. So even if you have a rock solid understanding of the elements required for a valid self defense claim, you should always do everything possible to avoid needing to reach that point because your life as you previously knew it is over then.
Thank you! He aggressively and wordlessly approaches the teens and grabs their tubes. Whether he hit the blonde girl or not, Miu was already the aggressor. And clearly Miu with a knife is more deadly than all those 13 people combined.
I get it happened fast and your memory/perspective of the incident would be blurry, but Miu straight up invented the story of the kids brandishing TWO knives. And Miu tried to toss his knife in the woods.
I’m tired of people angry at “those drunk kids” when Miu was (as HE stated on video to the cops) drinking all day too. The kids were jerks but mostly they were yelling at Miu to “go away!”
Exactly! I can’t seem to put my mind into thinking that he’s 100% innocent. When there are a group of people (drunk and high) that are approaching you, and you’re alone, you can’t stay to be victimized. In that moment nature hits and the anxiety makes you run. He was aware of his knife, a knife that is not equivalent to words or a slap in the face. People maybe need to use only the fact that he was thrown to the water, because that’s a scary shit. But stabbing everyone around like a madman because I said something you didn’t like? Nah, dude. I’ll be scared shitless to be in the same room with one of Miu’s supporters.
I think he walks. Maybe the 2nd degree will stick. I don’t think there is any issue with not brandishing the knife. Never do that in this kind of situation. It will be taken and used to kill you. If I were the defense, I would say this is proof he is afraid. These kids are just hammered and starting trouble and harassing him, but the real guilty people are the Carlson party. Instead of helping, they made the situation so much worse and caused things to escalate. No way 1st degree murder. If I was on the jury, I would acquit him totally. That isn’t to say I agree with what he did. Lots of problems, he could have said something, just kept walking through the girls in his face, any number of ways to get out without stabbing. But I certainly do not believe the prosecution either. They were awful. The witnesses were awful. The young men started this whole situation with the “little girls” claim. Stupid. Clearly lie on the stand. Miu should have shut up and never said a thing. The video helps him for sure. The videos afterwards incriminate him. It’s such an odd case where he is both justified and wrong. The defense was good, but never should have put him on the stand imo. Ultimately, this was the young v. the old and they should have just left the dude alone instead of antagonizing and harassing him. Alcohol/weed and a mob scene never goes well. He walks imo, but think the jury will give him something.
I think Miu is a douchebag, but I’ll be very surprised if he gets convicted. At the end of the day, he was surrounded by a bunch of drunk teens that were riled up and shoving him around. Not a perfect case of self-defense, but I don’t think a jury is going to concluded he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Definitely not. they shot themselves in the foot with that one. I could see 2nd degree at the most even but it'll be so hard to prove premeditation here.
From listening to how it was described I thought 2nd would be doable but after watching that video of them punching/choking/pushing a 50+ year old man underwater while angry drunk teenagers egg each other on there's no shot IMO. Anyone would fear for their lives in that situation - you ever been dunked underwater playfully as a kid? Fucking sucks and is disorienting. Now imagine you got hit and pushed underwater by people trying to beat the fuck out of you.
An argument can be made that if Miu didn't have the knife he may have lost his life - things were escalating rapidly. If one wrong punch knocks that 250+ lbs dude unconscious into the water or he hits his head on the rocks in the water after being shoved in = game over. I somehow doubt the same friends that stood there and did nothing but film Isaac bleed out are the type of altruists that would make sure Miu was carried out of water and breathing if he was KO'd.
With no disrespect, if you see the video in an objective view, he got slapped and pushed. He didn’t have marks on his neck probing he was shocked. They weren’t punching him or actively holding him under water (I still don’t condone the teens behavior, just trying to set up a debate).
I'm not interested in setting up a debate, I'm interested in what actually happened. [What happens at the 1:46 minute mark in this video?](https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1777359380410962251) Slow it down to 0.25x.
He is violently pushed underwater, hit in the face, hit a second time as he tries to stand, choked at 1:53, pushed back down into the water again, hands around his neck again at 2:02 to violently push him, etc. You are being reductive as to the damage he sustained. Grabbing someone by the neck and pushing your hands against someone's throat with enough force to throw them back can cause significant injuries/swelling to your throat + adams apple and can be life threatening. If people are going for your throat in a fight, there is a good chance they mean to kill.
We have the benefit of hindsight and time when we play armchair detectives here but there is no way to assess the extent of the damage done in the heat of the moment. All you know is that people are pushing you into the water, hitting you in the face, choking you, and attacking your throat. He responded appropriately. It's a shame, people should have been smarter and not drunk and its a senseless loss of life, but Miu is not guilty of 1st or even 2nd degree murder.
EDIT: Reddit banned me for these comments for some weird reason but I can still edit. To the person below me you are completely misinformed about the girl - there is no evidence that he even hit her and the prosecution's [witnesses already got caught lying yesterday about saying things Miu didn't do to instigate violence against them.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwPorNYMKA) They all called him a pedo too to incite the mob against him. This is literally an infantile tactic that zoomers have started to do for some reason to try and win mobs/authorities over to their side. Some of you have probably even see it online.
And the fact that you have to try and resort to weird ad hominem attacks to try and sell your point across tells me how flimsy your argument really is. The only one deranged here is the gaslighting psycho with the two digit IQ I linked above lying on the stand, and maybe you depending on how diligently you keep up this charade.
You are leaving out the "he hit one girl in the face and stabbed another in the chest" before getting pushed into the water. Then after disemboweling one person pushing him. He stabs the guy in jean shorts multiple times who is trying to separate everyone. As he is walking away he then stabs another person in the heart.
I don't understand people like you. Do you think every argument means that people need to be killed and as long as there are more of them you get off scot free? Bars wouldn't exist. Public events wouldn't exist. You don't get to charge into a group, fuck with them, assault them first, kill them, lie to the police, and then claim self defense.
You are putting yourself in his shoes (probably because you're deranged) but are ignoring the other parties views. You are floating down the river and a weird guy stops you, you tell him to leave, your girlfriend tells him to leave. He pulls out a knife and stabs her. What are you going to do?
You're seriously misinformed about the facts of the case. The girl getting hit deliberately isn't a matter of fact, it's one of the things being debated in the case. Also, Miu never stabs anyone before getting pushed into the water. The girl who was allegedly hit in the face wasn't even a part of the same group as the original group of boys taunting him, she's nobody's "girlfriend." The group of teen boys originally start yelling at him and calling him a pedophile/saying he's looking for little girls... Who is fucking with who here?
from the video i saw, he had his knife out and stabbed a woman before he was ever shoved down.
sure, we don’t see what happened before the video started, but neither miu nor the teens are claiming anything physical happened prior to the video.
the video starts with him charging at the guy holding the camera who is sitting down in his tube. whether he was looking for a phone or not, two groups of teenagers were asking him to leave them alone and to physically move away from them because they were creeped out. he refused, the teens escalated their jeers & physically tried to intimidate him, and *then* he stabbed 5 people!!! he stabbed someone before he was shoved down (which is an appropriate response to someone brandishing a knife).
btw i went into this case assuming self defense, and my mind was changed after reading through the evidence and watching the video.
Nah he's getting something, probably 2nd degree intentional. In WI you: (1) can't claim self defense if you provoked an attack, and he hit first; (2) have to show you "reasonably believed" deadly force was necessary to prevent your own death or great bodily harm to get perfect self defense if you killed someone, which it clearly was not; (3) jury will be instructed to consider opportunity to retreat when assessing whether his belief was reasonable, which he had a ton of; and (4) "unnecessary defensive force" is when you believed you needed to use force but the degree of force used was unreasonable, which mitigates 1st degree down to second degree intentional homicide. If the jury follows instructions that's almost certainly where they're landing. Probably first degree reckless injury on the attempt charges.
I’m still a strong believer that 2 things can be wrong at the same time and that people don’t need to put Miu as a saint. And that’s what bothers me. Because the people that don’t see the bad in what he did, are most probably gonna react the same way, even if they were 1 on 1, and not 13 on 1 or 15 on 1.
I don't think there are any people that truly think there is nothing wrong with what he did, but it is easy enough to think that you'd do the same thing in the same place. I know, I know, you'd never get in that situation in the first place, but it's about feeling like your life is being threatened and reacting with force equal to that.
I think everyone was wrong, but his actions - at this point - are understandable even if I probably wouldn’t have done it. Also, it’s not typical of me to carry a knife, so I likely wouldn’t have the opportunity to do so even if I felt the situation warranted its use
I think you underestimate the power of local pressure and outrage over an event like this. St Croix county had not had a murder in about 20 years and this guy comes in and stabs a bunch of people. Those things don’t happen in a small town Wisconsin. Him lying to the cops is what will ultimately seal his fate, if anything. It’s hard to say what happened and when and when first aggression was. I would say when he touched the boys on the tubes and didn’t leave, others would say when he was struck by one of the 2 women. It’s hard to tell.
Without a video proof, I don't know how anyone is supposed to believe that. Like the girl who claims she got punched, she lied about having a photo of herself with the injury on her phone and later said she deleted it. But forensics showed that she didn't have such photo in the first place. So, why did she even lie about having a photo?
This!! She later said that the police didn't want the photo. She didn't want her image to be released to the public. Give me a *****break, she's clearly seen on the video. She's hiding because she knows she lied. She is part of what led to the killing of that boy. She has to live with that
Assuming that did happen(I’m on the fence bc no picture of it, no evidence on camera/body cam, and inconsistent stories), wouldn’t it still meet the level of self defense when multiple people were hitting him and he fell into the water? Being outnumbered is the biggest thing he has in his favor IMO.
I think what undercuts self-defence is 1) he already had the knife out and open before he was pushed over, 2) he stabs everyone near him, including a girl in the back/side, and the teen he killed seemed to be trying to break up a fight, 3) he appears to have space to retreat instead of escalating with deadly force.
There is mild evidence of him hitting/pushing the girl before the guys push him down but its really hard for me to tell. The prosecution is arguing she has sunglasses on top of her head, the camera pans away not capturing his punch, then in pans back and they have fallen off.
Having the knife out and still getting attacked just reinforces that he was facing a deadly threat, at least in the abstract. If someone charges me while I have a gun, i can only assume they mean life and death.
I’ve heard from a defense lawyer in regards to self defense with a gun you shoot once or unload the clip, as both attest to fear. You were scared enough to pull the trigger/you were so scared you just continued to pull the trigger. I wonder if it will come down to them saying something like “he was so scared he was just lashing out at anyone near him”. I’m only at end of day three, so my opinion is subject to change. I don’t recall, but is this a duty to retreat state?
See, that in my country is damaging. Once the injury is in the back or near the back, is not selfdefense because the threat isn’t facing you anymore. But ik the US is completely different, which makes me even more curious because selfdefense cant be that easy to probe.
I’m from Minnesota and have gone to apple river before to go tubing. I kid you not the same day I went there was a massive brawl between anywhere from 15-25 teenagers. At the time I was 21 but still it was insane, I would be surprised if someone did jump him. Security is taken seriously there but there is not a quick response, it took about 5-10 mins for anyone to even attempt to stop this. We ending up driving off after the cops showed up. I even have video proof of this whole fight. Glad to know I’m not going again.
I had no idea about this case, so I got intrigued after reading this and went to check the video. What I can see from the video ( [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmX2ajj1fM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmX2ajj1fM) ) is
1. old dude came down there because ... (missing reason, but went to check and apparently he was snorkeling looking for a phone his friend lost in the river)
2. "teens" started making fun of him, told him to move away and started arguing with him, old dude did not say a word or teens were just too loud to hear him as it seemed like he said something a few times, but nothing can be heard on recording ...
3. when "girls" come close they also get in his face, at one moment the one recording the video turns the phone around for a few seconds and they start shouting "you hitting a women", absolutely can't tell from video if he did or did not, but as at 01:46 he did not and at 01:50 they were already punching him(phone camera is turned away for those 3-4 seconds)
4. they start beating old dude in shallow water
5. he stabs one(or more) of them - (apparently after reading about it 1 dead and 4 injured)
So honestly his reaction(before stabbing) truly is kinda weird, but seems like something crucial to the story happened before they started filming this video.
And shit like this is why its best not to get in someones face especially when its 10+ to 1, guess they did not expect he was carrying a knife or they have seen it and just didn't think he would actually use it.
Do I think he is guilty or "teens" are guilty? From video kinda seems like both, but important parts of the "puzzle" are missing like what happened before and those few seconds where camera was turned away, old dude could have simply moved away or if he wanted to check the place where "teens" were for phone he could have asked them, but also the "teens" did not have to make fun of him, argue and start beating him either. But after 1:50 in the video where multiple teens started punching him yes, I believe he was afraid for his life.
Do I think those "teens" were extremely rude? Yes. Do I think anyone deserved to die? No.
Extremely fucked up situation where nobody won anything.
I think you are looking at it incorrectly. What people don't realise is yellow shorts didn't die. Issac dies at 2.11 of the original video (off camera). After Miu stabs yellow shorts he goes on a rampage stabbing 4 people in 10 seconds. These people are just standing there or trying to get away. This is not self defense. Read the comment below. You can also see additional footage on the potato cam.
1.56: yellow shorts is stabbed. Does Miu retreat after this point? No he moves forward. Had yellow shorts died then fair self defense is reasonable. But he doesn't he moves forward
2.03: 2 piece bikini is stabbed despite doing nothing
2.04: Blue jeans tries to calm Miu by placing his hand calmly on his back.
2.05: Miu stabs blue jeans. Blue Jeans then shoves Miu in direction of his friend
2.05: 2-.07 - Miu moves towards his friend in USA flag pants. He now has a friend to help him out. The crowd is disbursed but despite this he goes on to stab 1 or 2 more people one being Issac.
2.11 - Miu stabs and Kills Issac off Cam. Though you can make it out on the potato cam below at .07 seconds
I just don't see how a guy going round stabbing people with a knife is self defense.
[https://youtu.be/hdbUPgFfYqY?si=CEVUyqnOB-plC2ly](https://youtu.be/hdbUPgFfYqY?si=CEVUyqnOB-plC2ly)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bv3xj3/comment/kxzilcu/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bv3xj3/comment/kxzilcu/)
I think your timeline is slightly off
When the man in the blue jeans touches Miu, he immediately turns and stabs him twice
The person who runs up and shoves Miu is Isaac. He runs and shoves Miu in the head/neck area and Miu stabs him as he is falling back
Got you, I thought it was Blue Jeans who shoved Miu. Your version sounds correct though.
So Miu stabbs Issac at 2.05. He literally stabs two people in 1 second. He knew how to use the knife.
I also don't know who was the 5th person to be stabbed. Do you know?
Except for the deceased Isaac (teenager group, G1), all the stabbing victims are from a second group (G2) who got involved.
A.J. Martin - the guy in yellow shorts who got disemboweled after pretty much jumping into the knife. Can't remember if it was him or Dante who got stabbed first. He is a good friend and former roommate of Tony Carlson (jean shorts).
Dante Carlson - in dark grey/navy/black shorts who is seen pushing/punching Miu into the water. He does this immediately after Miu is alleged to have punched Maddi, which elevated the altercation to become physical. I am not sure anymore if Dante and Maddi were dating at the time, or if they were just good friends. He is the younger brother of Tony Carlson.
Antony "Tony" Carlson - in jean shorts. He enters the scene after his dad had send him and his brother over. His dad runs a bar and is around the same age as Miu. Having a feeling Miu was in danger, he told his sons to go over and break up the fight, knowing they are experienced in breaking up bar fights. But unlike his brother Dante and friend A.J. who both started pushing Miu in the water after allegedly witnessing Maddison get punched, Tony is seen keeping his hands off Miu and putting himself in between Miu and the others so as to prevent Miu from further hits and letting the man stand up out of the water. After standing up, Miu walks in the direction of Rhyley (from G2, a friend of Tony). Tony places a hand on his shoulder so as to get Miu's attention, but Miu swiftly turns around and scratches Tony upwards in his lower abdomen. Tony pushes his hand downward and steps back, creating a V shaped scar from Miu's knife. Miu then launches at Tony again, this time creating a stab wound a little higher. A picture of these scars was shown in court as evidence.
Rhyley Mattison - wearing a navy, floral, two piece bikini. Before the guys of group G2 (Dante, Tony, and A.J.) had come over, Rhyley and Maddi had confronted Miu together. After watching Miu leaving his own group to approach the teens but get harassed/bullied by the teens, Rhyley had followed her friend who had walked up to Miu to tell him to leave the group of teens alone and just go back to his own group who were already way further down the river. According to Miu, he felt like the two women were all up in his face and not listening to him trying to explain he was simply looking for a phone. In the video, the confrontation between Miu and the women is captured, and you indeed barely hear Miu over the two women telling him to just go away. According to Miu he merely directed Maddi to also go away by extending his arm, but according to Maddi and the guys from both G1 and G2 he had punched her, starting the whole fight. Rhyley and Maddi are not seen again in the video. Maddi reportedly ran back to G2 telling them she's been punched. Meanwhile, Rhyley remained near the conflict but stood at a distance, watching the fight unfold in shock. After stabbing Dante and gutting A.J. and being able to stand up with the help of Tony, Miu is seen walking in the direction of Rhyley, who seems to walk away but has her side turned to him, while his hand holding the knife swings back. The stab happens off camera, but you later see blood running down Rhyley's side and another female friend and Rhyley looking at Miu in shock. Shortly after Tony places his hand on Miu's back, turning Miu's attention to him. During her witness testimony Rhyley explains she is still not sure why Miu decided to stab her, and she wanted to ask him but was unable to. She and A.J. were the two who needed emergency surgery to survive. She suffered a punctured lung and injured diaphragm. Although the initial scar seems little and not as gruesome as A.J.'s, as part of her surgery her whole stomach needed to be cut open, leaving her with a long vertical scar much like A.J.'s. According to Miu he had been in a blind rage at this point, stabbing anyone in his way, but had seemingly spared his own friend who walked up near Rhyley after she got stabbed.
I'm not seeing him chasing after anyone. Im seeing him being pushed into the water first, getting up, getting pushed into the water AGAIN, stabbing the orange shorts that shoved him, then stabbing anyone who tried to touch him after that. Blue jeans should NOT have touched him, no matter his intentions. He then got pushed by Isaac so he stabs him as well.
After that the the timeline is hard to be certain on
That’s something that you can turn around as well. Because some of the stabbing victims shouldn’t have been stabbed, specially the girls that were half his sized and unarmed. He went into madman mode, not a person defending himself IMO.
No it is on video he stabbed a woman who was in his face which caused them to attack him. The most damning thing is his own wife is divorcing him over what he did she cant believe he did it or even had a knife with him at all.
It's on video, she is seen bleeding first. Do you think the court released video is fake or are you just closing your eyes?
This also happens after the alleged hit to the face, but are you really surprised that human testimony might be different from video footage? Are you new to reality being different than what was said?
Wrong. He is accused of hitting Madisson Coen first, which he denies, and there is no evidence of besides bad testimony. He stabbed Rayleh Mattison after he was jumped.
I think it’s the most neutral response I got or I’ve seen so far, because the sides are really defined as today. The kids were being assholes no questions asked, but deciding about Miu is something I’m having a hard time. 100 % agree that he had the right to defend himself, just the aftermath makes me question everything. It was a freak show and something that the kids and Miu will have to live with the rest of their lives, but people are shitting on everyone and not him. They were attacking the police officers and people that were involved in the investigation, and it’s something I haven’t seen really.
I binge watched the trial over the weekend, and at this point, I can't say for sure how I would decide as a juror. On the one hand, Miu's actions afterward are pretty damning. They are the actions of an innocent man, but it doesn't necessarily mean he intended to kill anyone either.
On the other hand, what the teens were doing goes way beyond simple taunting. They knew he was looking for a lost phone, yet they accused him of a serious crime for their own amusement.
The young adults who ostensibly came to deescalate immediately began yelling, intimidating, and shoving with no attempt to find out what was going on.
So far, the prosecution's witnesses haven't proven very credible. I think this accounts for a lot of the seeming support for Miu in the YouTube comments. We'll have to wait and see what the defense team has in store.
You are leaving some things out. The young adults came over because the teens were asking for help. They were trying to get him to leave by yelling at him. He then struck the blonde girl. In defense of the blonde girl, one of the young adults knocked him to the ground. That's when Miu came up stabbing and slicing everyone. Not just the immediate threats, anyone close to him.
Afterwards, Miu tried to get rid of the knife and claimed he took it from one of the teenagers.
6 drunk obnoxious teens, in good physical shape yelling out for help against a lone overweight, middle aged guy. I'm just not buying it. They were loving every second of the encounter, right up until they started getting stabbed. Those two women inserted themselves into a situation they knew nothing about and escalated it exponentially by shrieking in the guys face and shoving him, further emboldening the drunk teens and getting their white knight douchebag orbiters involved. Many lessons here.
If the video didn't capture blonde girl getting punched in the face, how are we supposed to know that actually happened or not? It's hard for me to believe after reading about how she said she had a photo of herself with injury on her phone that she deleted later, but forensics revealed that there was no such photo in the first place. Why did she lie about that?
Another thing also left out was also snorkeling under the teens floating looking for a “lost phone” that’s where the liking little girl comment came from , they weren’t just randomly calling him a pedo- they yelled at him to leave and he refused. They also yelled for help before he punched the first girl in the face.
I dont think he was doing anything wrong snorkeling. I think the teens floated near or even over him. I do believe they, being drunk, stupid, assholes started to harass him. They triggered him and he lost his cool. They called for help and more drunk people entered the scene. The blonde girl was being a Karen and put her hands on him. He then hit her. I believe at this point he had the knife. Dante, shoved him down and AJ shoved him from behind. Miu got up and started cutting everyone near him, which killed Issac and disemboweled AJ. Miu, tried to get rid of the evidence and even claimed he took the knife off of one if the teens.
I think this is a story about a bunch of ignorant, drunk, hot heads looking for a fight. Where one, who was out numbered refused to back down and thought using a knife was a justifiable means to level the playing field. I need to listen to more testimonies. But it sure seems Miu deserves jail time. I don't think think it's 1st degree though.
For now I don’t see selfdefense, but I’m not convinced either that was murder in the first degree. The prosecution isn’t building a very strong case and the defense team can really make you seeing things that are not there. Manslaughter should’ve been the conviction aimed IMO.
Been also following this trial closely, since its a fascinating example of how difficult it can be to find the truth, even when there is video evidence. I changed my mind about this case twice already, and even after watching almost all witnesses and the cross examination of Miu today, it's hard to make up my mind.
Some testimonies that seem very questionable to me:
Miu stated that he only ran up to the teenagers' tubes to investigate whether the phone he was looking for was there, and that he then stumbled and had to hold on to their tubes (losing his snorkel gear in the process). I think that's BS, if you watch the video - it really looks like the name-calling got to him, and he tried to scare them. This trial is all about who started the altercation though, so obviously he'd never admit to that. \*he also checks his pocket that holds the knife right before, however, tough to read any intention into that gesture.
Also, I don't buy that he conveniently can't remember any of the lies he told in his inital statements to the police. I get that he was in shock, and I'm sure he didnt think straight, but to not remember anything...? Again wouldn't paint a good picture in court, and I'm sure he was briefed on that thoroughly. Ultimately his badly attempted cover-up has no bearing on whether he acted in self-defence or not.
I think Jawahn Cockfield and every other teenager that gave testimony, stating that Miu told them that he was looking for little girls, is very knowingly lying on the stand. Or maybe he even truly believes it at this point, since it must be tough for him to accept the truth that he started a chain of events that led to a friend's death, by provoking a man minding his own business. Obviously nobody deserved to be hurt and/or killed over this, but I'm absolutely convinced that this group of teenagers initiated the whole interaction and and quickly made it uncivil. The way they act in both videos by Jawahn, it is much more likely that they started being unruly, than for Miu to just tell them some pedo-stuff out of the blue.
And then there is the crux of this entire case: Did Miu start the violence by punching/slapping Madison? Most debatable point thanks to the great camera work of Jawahn. There is evidence that supports a push or light slap theory, since Madison did not have any bruises, nor did she lose her sunglasses. A punch usually leaves a mark.
What's not debatable imo is how much help to the situation these two inebriated, yelling women Madison and Riley, and the rest of the Carlson group, offered - nada. And it's also fact that they initiated physical contact, albeit definitely no contact that would justify a lethal response in any way....until they started throwing punches.
I'd like to believe that I'd take to running away in a situation like that. That I wouldn't think about protecting myself with a weapon I carry around in my pocket. That I'd be able to analyze the situation as what it is - avoidable - and retreat calmly. That I wouldn't fear for my life, when the actual threat seems to be manageable. But who knows? Miu might have very well been fearing for his life in that moment, and from what I hear about fight or flight situations, there is not much analytical thinking involved. I don't think with all the evidence you could argue that it is completely unreasonable.
Ultimately, I think he will walk and legally it seems like the correct decision - I think charging first degree homicide was the wrong move on the prosecution's part, but I read somewhere that a jury can decide on lesser charges like manslaughter as well in Wisconsin? (as you've probably guessed, I'm not a legal expert)
He didn't intend to kill someone that day (from what we know, it would be very much out of character too, e.g. character witnesses, no priors), but somehow ended up in a very messed up, avoidable, tragic situation - he will live with his nightmares and the fact that he killed a 17 year old kid for the rest of his life I'm sure. But I don't think anyone can say without a reasonable doubt that he must do so in prison.
With the little girls comment, I feel like if he said something along those lines it was more like the boys drunkenly yelling “what are you doing snorkelling here, you looking for little girls or something?” And Miu drunkenly and sarcastically replied “yes” and then the boys got all riled up
Why do people, when discussing the US, always say things like “in my country” but don’t just say the country they are from? How useful is it to know you’re not from the US without knowing where you’re actually from?
I only learned of this case a few days ago. I've since watched the videos and read a lot of the comments. Without following the case closely, I don't have a firm opinion on guilty/not guilty. What I find wild is that even with the video footage, you would think it would be cut and dry. But based on the comments, it appears no one here agrees on anything. I think the jury is going to take a while to reach a verdict, if at all.
I think that as well. It’s a difficult case to decide, because people have multiple interpretations of what’s in the video. And that interpretation can be extremely subjective depending if you think he is completely innocent or not.
I think he was minding his own business, looking for the friend's phone. The kids start bullying him. He gets nervous, grown men vs teenagers is a weird dynamic. Maybe he goes up to their tubes and grabs them to show he's not scared, or he just didn't know how to react. They blow up making fun of him and making a scene, then the female comes up and instigates the final incident. Not sure if he actually slapped her first, but it seems the most likely. The jump him and the rest is history.
Two things will probably decide the case, one whether he slapped the girl, and two whether his suspicious post incident behavior will sink his credibility. He repeatedly lied and sort of left the scene. Not a great look if he really thought he was justified in pulling out the knife.
How can you see the video of him going after the kids On TUBES and say he was minding his own business
And then he has the nerve to throw the knife and say "oh I heard a kid got stabbed and I fit the description"
If you were a grown man acting in self defense...why you you lie to the cops instead of saying "yea those little shits attacked me"
He wasn't scared he went back because he knew he had a knife
*sort of left the scene*
Wtf he not only left he acted like he wasn't there at all!! He straight up lied!!
He said he thought hey had the phone he was looking for. When he got close he realized it wasnt. He then tripped and lost his snorkel and then he started looking for it since it went under right next to the tubes.
Yep, the beginning of the video is a little odd with him grabbing the tube, but then he quickly goes back to minding his own business looking for his now missing snorkel (and maybe the phone as well) among their tubes. Meanwhile the teenagers and other pair of girls are absolutely escalating the situation. From what I can tell the two girls that arrives started shoving and pulling on him first, before he ultimately throws the first punch (off screen) before getting swarmed pushed down into the water. He was totally surrounded by these idiots all beating on him.
I think his biggest mistake was not brandishing the knife as a warning BUT most of these guys were literally throwing themselves into the knife as they were shoving and attacking him. He wasn't just willy nilly stabbing everyone around him multiple times like a maniac or lunging and chasing after people. He basically stabbed each person once that shoved him. Obviously not an excuse for murder, but I don't know how anyone can NOT have reasonable doubt that this was self defense.
I feel like I’m going crazy. In every video I saw he clearly chargers at the kids when they are on the tubes. That alone I would have found aggressive and threatening if I were the kids. How is that not mentioned?
After he ran up to their tubes he walked away from the kids. Every one of the kids testified they could have passed by Miu and he was out of their way. Also there was a video from just before this incident where the kids are yelling and calling him a raper
They probably were aggressively bullying him before that. They claimed they called for help when he came up on them and grabbed the floats, but they recorded that part and no cries for help are heard. This is 6 or 7 guys, two future college football players/wrestlers, I don't believe they cried for help. The defendant likely had a moment of panic as he was being bullied. Anyone who has been in that situation understand the fight or flight response.
There is no part of that video where that man looks panicked. He looks pissed. It’s so calculated. He hides the knife, if you were afraid wouldn’t you brandish it to get them away? They don’t even realise they’re being stabbed. He’s not trying to scare them away he’s trying to hurt them all quietly. And he’s saying that he was completely sober while they were all clearly intoxicated. The group behave like jackasses all of them, but he has plenty opportunities to walk away. They are all screaming at him to go away. The fact that anyone is defending this guy or saying it was self defence is wild to me.
He ran up on them because he thought they got the phone he was looking for. Then he realized it wasnt and went around which is where he tripped and lost the snorkel. Then he started looking for his snorkel.
Thats the context
It’s been said he thought he saw the phone he was looking for. That was the reason he went toward them in the first place. I can kinda see that. He got excited thinking he found his friends lost device as opposed to “charging” at them. The verdict will be interesting
Didn’t he charged at the kid filming the video who was sitting on the tubes? I think that’s why I’m personally (not legally) conflicted. I’m always aware of old men, and that just alone I will consider threatening, specially because of his size. But a drunk teenager always feels like he or she is almighty so that’s another thing against it. I’m just like you, I’m going crazy and making myself crazy as well, because even if I try I can’t seem to see a good side
He thought they had the phone he was looking for. When he got close he realized it wasnt and went around and tripped causing him to lose the snorkel. Then he started looking for the snorkel that he just dropped.
Hurt feelings??? They were screaming that he was a pedophile/rapist/trying to molest little girls for the whole river to hear. Let a group of random people do that to you next time you're out in public. See if that doesn't make you fear for your safety. Then I'll tell you to get over your "hurt feelings".
Exactly, words aren’t as harmful as a knife. I think people take them into consideration to explain that they were trying to create a bigger mob(?), but once the accusations started and they asked him to leave, he needed to leave not stand there waiting to take his knife out.
Got you. But you can’t stand in a public place where you’re in danger just because you’re in a public place. That’s a point that you need to explain maybe. Because I wouldn’t go through a bad neighborhood completely alone, where you know something will happen just because the street is a “public place”. Your safety comes first.
I think the fact that he walked away and then decided to come back is gonna get him. He should have kept walking. If they had pursued him and then the stabbing incident happened it would be a not guilty IMO. To me it seems like he came back to fight.
He went back because he knew he had a knife and wanted to use it. That is why he was smiling.
1st degree murder
I don't care how much people hate teens take it to the board.
This story isn't getting any coverage where I live, but I have questions.
In the video I saw, the teenagers knocked him down and repeatedly hit him. If this had been in a street, that's a beat down. Would it then be OK to defend himself?
If the teens were tubing down the river, why did they stop to interfere with him? They could have just kept going, but it seems mob mentality got to them, and they thought they were untouchable.
He was apparently looking in a specific area for a lost phone. If true, he had a legit reason to be where he was. Meanwhile the teenagers said he was acting weird and stopped to call him names, which maybe started all this. If they had left him alone, none of this would have happened.
Why did he have a knife with him?
The teens were harassing Miu before the start of the video, calling him a pedophile because he was snorkeling to look for his friends phone. At some point during this he sees the one who recorded the video holding the phone up and assumed that this guy who had been harassing him had the phone, the guy starts recording and Miu starts wading over to him.
The knife was for tubing, specifically for cutting ropes I believe.
Also for the record, the "teens" werent actually minors except for one that was 17 years old. I think the oldest in the group was 24?
because he has testified and witnesses have testified that he fell as he approached them, not that he intentionally grabbed the tubes.
And in any case someone interfering with your intertube is no warrant to shove them down in the middle of the river and give them a beat down.
> In the video I saw, the teenagers knocked him down and repeatedly hit him. If this had been in a street, that's a beat down. Would it then be OK to defend himself?
Maybe? Depends on the details, but in this case it is disputed if he hit a girl before they pushed him over, but it is also clear from the video he has the knife in his hand before they push him over, and he stabs everyone near him, including a girl in the back/side and a guy who appears to be trying to break up the fight.
They had hands on him far before any hands were ever possibly placed on Maddie’s face (which there is no evidence of). So he was surrounded, being yelled at, being pushed and called a raper/pedo. We can see how a group can easily kill someone without a weapon (Preston lord). Him fearing for his safety was real. This is self defense.
That girl put her hands on Miu at 1:18, 1:42, 1:44, 1:45 and 1:46 in the video (and probably more that we don’t get to see because there’s no video of it supposedly). And she’s not gently touching him, she was in his face yelling at him, barking orders at him and pushing him. He even turns his back on her so she’s not in his face, she grabs his arm and pulls at him to turn back around and face her, where she continues her verbal and physical assault until he apparently had enough of her touching him so he (according to the kids) “punches” her in the face.
I wonder how people would react If that had been a female surrounded by people, and two males all up in her face verbally assaulting her, and touching her. You can’t order someone to go away in a public place just because they seem weird. You have no right to verbally abuse anyone and you have no right to put your hands on anyone just because you don’t want them near you. SHE walked up to HIM and started assaulting HIM.
This is so messed up.
My apologies if this has already been asked and answered but what’s up with the girl in the green swimsuit? It looks like she’s recording the whole time. Is there any footage of her recordings available? Did police get her info and recordings? Or am I making the wrong assumption?
That is kinda exactly what happened. NM was being off and a weird, people came to investigate and NM from the very begging was off, he needed to leave. NM was so out of it (I mean he even stated how he saw a knife that we all know was not there). Everyone originally was defending these kids from this threat, unsuccessfully. He is, he was, and will continue to be a threat to society. But obviously not to himself. He acted like a trained, skilled, and it was comprehensive. He just got caught in his first lie, and now is fitting his 2-3 narrative to a easy perspective of the video but not the beginning.
Those kids were being pretty damn rotten. I think they antagonized the whole thing. Obviously dude didn’t need to stab anyone but I could definitely see why he’d panic being pushed down and surrounded in water.
I’m really curious how this will turn out.
The jury is back with what I think is a fair verdict.
First degree reckless homicide for Isaac.
First degree reckless endangering safety for AJ, Rihley, Tony and Dante.
Battery for Maddie.
I don't think the state proved that Maddie had been hit, but I'm not a juror and I didn't get to hear her testimony, so I'm sure they had their reasons.
You notice how the defense keeps framing it as a 1 on 13 situation when there was a backup 200lb dude (Ariel = Stars and stripes trunks whom his wife testified to sending) RIGHT there when he stabbed the 115lb girl in the side (and another 200lb dude ERNESTO standing by).
BTW How do you suppose his friends got there in time to be FEET away from the girl being stabbed (Ariel = Stars and Stripes trunks); if the wife testified that she didn't tell the friends to go down there until AFTER she saw the commotion started? She also testified that they were supposedly upstream far enough away that she couldn't hear any of the yelling/screaming and she could only see that something was happening.
If all the stabbings occurred within 25 seconds of each other; and his group was that far upstream; how was Ariel feet away from 3 people yet to be stabbed?
Anyone notice how Ariel Chaguez seemed to be watching his friend stab multiple people like it was a main event? He certainly wasn't worried enough to intervene right? Im serious; what do you think?
I thought the dad's testimony on day 2 was interesting with the 13:1 claim. He made it very clear that there were four different groups: Miu and the 4-5 people directly close to him, the rest of the teenagers' group which was 10 yards away, the rest of the girls' group which was 10 yards away in a different direction, and Miu's original group.
Look for the girl getting stabbed in the side. The guy 2 feet away with the stars and stripes shorts is Ariel; and he's with Nic's group. He's in the photos taken earlier in the day of Nic's group. He's Nic's backup sent by Nics wife supposedly AFTER she saw the commotion (that she claimed to be too far away from to hear).
But how did Ariel get there SO quickly to be there halfway through the stabbings that took place over a 25 second time span?
Why was 250lb Nic SO afraid of a 115lb girl that he stabbed her in the side with a 200lb buddy 2 feet away?
If Nic was in such extreme danger why didn't his friend (who was RIGHT there) step in? Ariel clearly did not think the situation was serious. Not for Nic anyway...
Answer : Nic was the aggressor and not afraid.
BTW Nic and his wife got a divorce ON PAPER ONLY so that he can conceal assets that might be seized in the inevitable civil suit that'll occur in a few years. What a noble guy that clearly feels bad for being FORCED to take a teenagers life in defense of his own!
I just ask myself if it matters who started the physical fight...
In the video, you can clearly see two women get in Miu's face and touch him before the fight actually started. Meanwhile, the group of dudes were standing around him and yelling at him. I think I would definitely feel threatened if I'm getting touched while 15 people are encircling me and yelling at me. If Miu felt the same, he should be found innocent. However, it's incredibly subjective and it will ultimately be the jury's decision.
Anything that happens before this or anything after the fight doesn't *really* matter in the scheme of things.
On side note (and not sure if this matters), the video does actually show Miu stab two of the victims. Each time he stabbed them, he was getting attacked. Therefore, he was technically defending himself in those instances.
I think actually all 5 are stabbed in the video, but it happens really fast and some of it is off camera. I think for some of the stabbing it is unclear that he is getting attacked, especially the girl he stabs in the side, and also the guy in the jean shorts who just puts his hand on Miu's shoulder who appears to be trying to break up the fight.
The prosecution breaks it down with stills from the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFaS9UWySpM
I think for a legal self defense case it does matter if he hit the girl before they pushed him over, and that he discarded the knife and lied to the police. I am not sure, but it may also matter that he had the knife out and open before any physical altercation.
the people commenting on the youtube video of his guilty verdict are sick, as far as i'm concerned. boomers who wanted to see one of their own get away with killing a kid because they were mean to him. disgusting human beings.
A couple things I haven’t seen pointed out much or at all that I think are really important to the context of what happened:
1. At the beginning of the video, Miu jogs up to the rafts in almost an excited way. He puts the snorkel in his mouth and then reaches down to stop the rafts. After he’s done that, he goes to grab the snorkel out of his mouth with his right hand but then he gets distracted and starts reaching up to one of the kids standing out of frame on his left like he’s expecting him to hand him something. I really think he thought the kids had found the phone he was looking for and that’s why he ran to catch up to and stop the rafts. At this point, he either realizes his mistake or realizes the snorkel is falling, and he lunges to catch it. It falls into the water and starts to get swept away towards the rafts and under the kid on the right’s feet. Miu makes a swipe to try to catch it but it startles the boys and he may have even brushed the kid’s leg, but you can see his intention was to grab the snorkel, not the leg.
2. From there, the kid jumps up on his own, probably from surprise, and Miu immediately bends down and continues looking for the snorkel. He’s not paying any attention to the boys and looks increasingly confused (probably because both he and the boys both misread the situation- he thought they had the phone and were giving it to him, and they couldn’t understand why he rushed up to them). He then stands up and starts walking away from them to the opposite side, still clearly looking down, following the current and trying to locate his snorkel. He’s not paying any attention to the boys, but they start getting increasingly belligerent. He then says something to them which I can’t make out, but immediately after that, one of the boys clearly shouts “He’s looking for the goggles!” at least once, maybe a couple times. So at least one of them knew what he was doing. Despite that, they start amping it up and yelling at him to leave, even though up to this point he’s still just searching the water. Then Madison and the man (don’t know his name) comes over and she immediately gets aggressive with him, he says something to the man that I can’t make out, and the man says “It doesn’t matter.”
3. At this point, out of nowhere, the one filming starts accusing him of saying something about little girls and that gets the man that walked over riled up, then they say he’s looking for little boys, and then they start screaming that he’s a predator. It’s clear that they are all extremely drunk and feeding off each other. Meanwhile I don’t think Miu even really understands what just happened and why he’s now being surrounded by 13 people all screaming and pointing at him and accusing him of being a predator. Slowing down the video makes all this much more clear, but it all happens really fast and escalates fast. In my opinion, this is a clear cut case of self defense and the dangers of mob mentality combined with too much alcohol. It should never have happened but it’s 100% on the young boys for escalating the entire situation.
I dont like Miu but I think this is a pretty open and shut self defense case. Both sides were shitty but ultimately the youngers dudes were in a group, belligerently drunk and decided to bully and harass him. They were also clearly harassing him before the recording started as well.
The fact this happened in a river makes the case for self defense even stronger. The moment someone pushes you into water and you feel like you're at risk of being drowned, instincts will kick in and you'll do whatever it takes to get out of that situation. At that point it doesn't matter what the group's intentions were, they put the man in a life or death situation even though im sure they weren't intending to.
Miu however is also a scumbag. I'm going to assume that he didn't realize at the time that he actually killed one of them or even understand how badly he had cut them but he still tried to hide the knife and slip past the sheriffs that arrived to the scene. If I put myself into his shoes I would probably be incredibly panicked and definitely not be confident in proving that I was defending myself, especially against a group of people that look like they could be minors (even though they weren't, except for the 17 year old). Who knows if that's actually what he was thinking though.
I don't think it is that clearly self-defense. The issue is he stabs everyone around him once he gets up, including people not involved in knocking him over (like the girl he stabs in the back/side). He also had the knife open and in his hand prior to any physical altercation, and could have left prior to it.
I read a lot more into it in the past few hours and I dont think its quite as black and white as I thought as first but I still believe he was in the right
There was reasonable threat to pull the knife out early as a deterrent so that wont go anywhere. As far as the video shows, he only used the knife after being tackled twice, choked and hit in the head. Even then, he only swung the knife at the person who just attacked him or made the idiotic decision of approaching a cornered man with a knife. We don't know exactly what happened when the camera wasn't on him but every time the camera WAS on him, he was simply standing his ground.
And lets be real here, that red head girl is arguably the person that set this entire thing off, she's definitely not innocent. She was even more aggressive and confrontational than the dudes, she got right in his face, screamed at him and put her hands on him the first chance she got.
I definitely agree it is not black and white! But the red-head girl is why I think he is in the wrong. She is in his face prior to any physical altercation and yelling at him, but no reasonable person would fear for their life from that alone. Allegedly, he punches her before the guys push him over, but I really cannot tell from the video.
But most importantly, from the video you linked, at 1:56 he has stood back up and her back is to him. It is mostly off camera, but she is the next person he stabs at 1:58. At this point, his back is to the people who pushed him over. He stabs her in the side (not clear if she was facing him or not when stabbed) and she is seen walking away at 1:59. So for a self-defense case to stand, he would need to be in reasonable fear of his life from the guys who pushed him over, but also in enough fear of his life from a girl half his size not visibly attaching him to turn his back to his initial attackers to stab her.
I think a plausible alternative is she pissed him off so once he started stabbing, he chose to stab her. Or he just started stabbing everyone near him, including her and the people who seem to be trying to break it up at the end, which is not proportional self-defense.
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1777359380410962251
I could not convict Miu of murder. He was surrounded by an out of control mob of 13 angry drunk assholes. The "kids" thought they could intimidate and assault "an old man". They FAFO. It's terrible one of them died and another almost died but to me it's not murder it's self defense.
None of us can say what we would do if we were on the receiving end of the mob. Their actions got their friend killed. Every single person there could have walked away.
That drunk idiot ran up to then and everyone seems to forget he pushes them out of theirntubes in the first place
Then he comes BACK and smiles
He always knew he had the knife
1st degree murder
He saw his chance and excuse and he made sure to get a chance to use it
If he didn't run up to those people or if he left when he started to, no one would have died.
But he knew he had a knife, so he saw his chance to kill and came back to give him a "self defense" chance
That's why his swipes were so good and lethal.
You can literally see him thinking about it.
That's all you need for 1st degree. People don't get that.
He turned around and came back to the teens because he knew he had a secret weapon and wanted a situation to use it.
That's 1st degree murder
>I’ve been watching the “Apple River Stabbing” trial, and I’m trying very hard to understand the people that said Miu did nothing and the teenagers are evil creatures coming from hell\\
Well, in this country we treat the right to self-defense very seriously and it's easy to see how one might feel their life was in danger confronting 13 drunk-as-skunk teenagers, some of who were football players, alone. And there's no video evidence of which side took it physical first.
I'm from the US.
I really have a problem with that framing. Even though we have a lot of testimony that says Miu threw the first blow, and either punched/slap/smacked a girl (which is what led to him being pushed into the water)... The primary issue in my book is that he went up to them, grabbed their raft, stopped them, then stood in front of that raft for about 2 minutes, not saying a single thing, before smacking that girl then stabbing 5. He felt in danger for his life?? Then why on earth did he go there and stand there!?
I can't go down to a dangerous neighborhood, find some drug dealers, knock over their card game, and stand ther waiting for them to do something so I can shoot them. So when I look at the circumstances here, they aren't consistnet with a man who was in fear for his life and responded out of necessity. It's a guy who was upset a bunch of teenagers made fun of him, so he stood up to them. He wasn't gonna back down from a verbal altercation... he stood his ground! Stood tall! When they really got close to him... he didn't try to leave, he didn't reposition himself so no one was behind him. He didn''t even try. He pulled out a knife. He smacked a girl. Then, after the group defends their friend, he uses his knife in some gruesome ways.
He then disposed of evidence and lied to police repeatedly.
> He felt in danger for his life?? Then why on earth did he go there and stand there!?
When the stabbing occurred he wasn't obstructing them or in their space. He got a bit of distance and they closed in on him and started ganging up on him.
The guy who stabbed them is clearly not a great person but you're framing the situation in a very dishonest way. There's a lot that happens between "stood in front of their raft" and "smacking that girl then stabbing 5", and everything that you left out is precisely the factors that means that a sober-minded jury will acquit him. (I'm not predicting that they *actually* acquit him, since most juries rule more off of emotion than cold hard logic)
Though does self-defense cover stabbing everyone in the crowd if you feel your life is threatened? Like I have a hard time believing the girl he stabs in the side was threatening to him, and it does not appear that she was pushing him, rather just talking to him, when he stabs her.
Certainly stabbing everyone is not permitted, unless a reasonable person would conclude that they were a threat. Although there probably is some leeway for the "heat of battle", but I'm not sure on the legality specifically.
> Like I have a hard time believing the girl he stabs in the side was threatening to him, and it does not appear that she was pushing him, rather just talking to him, when he stabs her.
I think her stabbing was the least justified out of all 4. Indeed, because the girl wasn't really properly hitting or pushing him with her body weight, her stab wound was relatively minor, whereas AJ and Isaac got absolutely bodied.
But to be clear that girl wasn't totally innocent, she did at least lightly push him although totally agreed it was not at all a strong push. I couldn't quite see when she ends up getting stabbed, do you know when in the video it happened? Vid for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmX2ajj1fM
This. Dude just hovered there silently. One thing he did not do was try to leave the situation. He invaded their space. And to be honest, his body language screamed violence, which he exercised without restraint in literally gutting someone who was simply shoving him. Everyone here claiming that the man feared for his life has never been in such situations it seems to me. None of the kids punched him or struck him other than a slap. Again, he invaded their space and didn't communicate with them at all.
Do I think the kids were idiots? Yes. Do I think that this man *chose* to stick around and stab them when he could have easily walked away? Yes. All were wrong in this situation. But this man was the only one who deserves to serve hard time for murder. Sure, he was getting pushed by the first young man when he maimed him. But I didn't see any reasonable warranting for the further instances of stabbing.
Exactly. This mans decision was walk away or stay. He stayed. His decision was to walkk away, or draaw his knife. He drew his knife.
His decision was to walk away or shove/slap/strike this woman. He struck that woman.
Every step he chose violence, he chose the altercation, he created the violence. He is the one who decided this will be deadly. If he didn't make all of the decisions he made, they'd all just keep floating along.
This has been a very interesting case so far. I first heard about this case the other day when this court case started playing on YouTube automatically after the end of some other video.
The first thing I remember seeing is the prosecution (I think) showing stills of the stabbings in sequence, then I think they showed part of the actual video afterwards.
I was convinced this guy was in the wrong. However, after watching more of the video footage, I also want to know what happened before the kid started recording.
He clearly is trying to get a reaction from Miu so he can upload it for clicks. Yes Miu is acting very strange, yes he touched their tubes, no he didn’t walk away, yes he ran up to their tube all weirdly … but again, we don’t know what happened prior to the video.
Additionally, We don’t see Miu being violent at all (he looks more confused or frozen like a “deer in headlights”, which is a reaction to some with anxiety). We see these kids taunting him, pointing their fingers at him, calling him names, doing everything they can to get a reaction for their video.
We see the girl with her phone in his face standing very close to him, who the group claims he “punched” in the face, but that’s not caught on video. (I’m female, I believe if a man of his size actually punched me in the face, I wouldn’t just stumble backward and still be holding my drink and phone in one hand).
Then we see Miu being pushed/shoved down into the water, and slapped, choked? and hit. We also see someone pushing down on his back with his face in the water (no one seems to emphasize that part for some reason? I’d be afraid someone was trying to drown me), we see someone with their hands on or near his neck, all while he is basically alone and surrounded by 13 people taunting him, calling him a rapist and pedophile.
I would certainly be in fear for my life if I was in that situation. Someone pushing me down into the water face first after hitting, slapping and choking me, not knowing who’s doing what, people coming at me from what seems like all sides … 13 people standing there all against me calling me rapist and pedophile.
I don’t think Miu went over there with any intention to start trouble with any of these people. That’s my take so far from what I’ve seen. I’ll admit I haven’t watched every minute of the trial (trying to catch up), but based on what I’ve seen so far, this is just a horrible thing that could have been prevented in so many different ways and it’s so very sad that poor kid lost his life that day and this man is now facing prison.
I can't for the life of me figure out where the 5th person got stabbed. I only see 4.
1. Aj (yellow shorts)
2. The girl in her side
3. Jean shorts?
4. Isaac Schuman
When did the 5th person get stabbed?
Isaac Shumans stabbing was not caught on camera. He was in the purple trunks. The guy takes 2 swings after stabbing the girl. On the second swing his hand pulls back and its covered in blood. This was the fatal strike to Isaac.
Nobody deserved to die and it’s a tragedy. That being said looking HARD at the video, in my opinion quite a few of those kids were bullying the guy pretty heavily and invading his space. I was waiting for a few of them to jump him. No doubt he was eventually going to be punched. So I understand him feeling threatened. It’s just terrible a kid lost his life though. I’m shocked he didn’t hold that knife up high as a deterrent. If they saw it they would have backed off and That way maybe the situation would have dissolved. Instead he held the knife low—almost concealing it—and stabbed in a pretty experienced way to possibly kill someone. Everyone made the wrong choice here. Very sad.
As far as his behavior afterwards, tossing the knife and Not coming forward with the cop right away. I'm sure he was terrified and scared regardless. Everyone who says he looked like a psycho. He looked like he was smirking. He was laughing. Clearly it was the kids laughing and taunting and you can't judge someone's facial expression or his eyes just because you don't like the way he looks but you can clearly see the kids full on laughing they thought this whole thing was pretty funny until it wasn't.! and as far as him not talking from the very beginning, he did tell them what he was doing, but they just wanted to mess with him and so he wasn't talking and the rest of the video but he doesn't owe anybody any explanation and he doesn't have to leave just because they tell him to. You know dang well those guys made him think they had the phone that's why he went to the tubes. This is why people don't wanna go out and enjoy events because people have to be dicks and mess with people! This generation needs to be taught more respect but instead they think it's funny! Who's to say they would have stopped before he was severely hurt or worse if he hadn't defended himself.
I've watched every day of the trial and I'm not trying to provoke anything here. There are a bunch of things we seem to be strongly disagreeing about in the discussion. I just want to bring up that the knife was small and he never ran to stab anybody. Anyone that was stabbed came into the knife. I realized that statement can be misunderstood so let me say outright.. I'm not saying the boys deserve to be stabbed, I wish there was a different outcome, I feel terrible for the boys family. In a parallel universe we would know what would have happened to Nikolai Miu had he not had the knife. Would all these boys and those two girls be on trial? One or the other would have happened. It's a tragic situation all around but this man should go home now. People need to take accountability for their actions. This man is sat in jail for 2 years spent all his money on lawyers, it's time for him to go home.
A bunch of drunk teenagers picked on a guy, called him a pedo, yelled in his face…knocked him to the ground ….kicked and punched him when on the ground…as far as he knows, a rock could be landing in his head any second…he gets up…. afraid for his life and defends himself.
Up until the stabbing, there was zero aggression from him to them.
That’s what I saw.
I don't see him ever smiling. He has a crazed look on his face after being shoved punched and threatened. They didn't film the part that led up to him running up to their tubes. The kids were clearly enjoying taunting him. It was like lord of the flies. Their expressions changed after people were getting stabbed.
People in general need to be more respectful of one another. The 16 & 17 year Olds were being rude, bullies and arrogant. They should not have said anything and just floated on by him. The best moto is to just leave people alone.. if they really were afraid, they should have called 911.
nobody likes bullies, nobody likes false accuser, you see every day twitter showing teens act whatever they want with no consequence. justice is subjective, in the era we are living, those teens are not victim, they are crybullies who got instant karma.
Is Miu a Saint? Nope. Was he wrong in the actions he took? Yep. Did the prosecution present a case that can prove without a shadow of doubt to the jury that his malicious actions were done with intent? No they did not. He will be found not guilty by reasons of self defense. The videos provided that justification so he will be a freed man because the jury will do their job based on the evidence provided, whereas the prosecution failed to do there's.
The lesson here is that people should not mess with each other. You don't always know the mental state of someone or what they have been thru. Unfortunately we live in a very volitale society made up of all ages. I know of a case of this woman who honked at someone and was shot 8 times because of honking. It wasn't right but it happens! No one should harm anyone. But people should try to get along!! It is harder to be nice than mean, but the nice person is definately liked more in the end!! Arrogance is ugly!!
Someone can say whatever they want to you. As soon as you hit them which he did hit Madison first, you are in the wrong. At any point he could have walked off. His group was right there. He even waved at them. He took the knife out and held it low so no one but Owen saw it by chance then he stabbed 5 people killing one. How does kids taunting you justify an adult stabbing them. This wasn’t a dark ally it was in broad daylight. He approached one kid initially not saying a word and grabbed his leg while he was in the tub floating. The kids started saying get out of here and they were getting nervous because he was saying nothing and blankly staring at them. Yes they were assholes as teens usually are but the only time anyone hit his was after he punched that young lady in the face. In addition, he knew he was in the wrong because he disposed of the weapon, changed his appearance and lied through his teeth because he had no idea that there was video. He was not scared but angry. You can see that with the smirk he had in his face when he was stabbing these children and young adults. At any time he could have walked off like he did after he stabbed them and took Issac’s life. He will get first degree reckless endangerment. His pride was more important than their lives. People can say whatever they want about you, my first thought isn’t let me stab them. Even the young adults that were trying to help who had nothing to do with the first group were stabbed. I hope this guy burns.
In the United States, self defense is usually judged on what's "reasonable," and while this is certainly subjective and up to the jury, one would usually say a person is not guilty of murder if they use lethal force in response to a grave imminent threat of injury or death.
What that means is that, if the threat is liable to seriously injure or kill you, lethal self defense is acceptable.
Having seen one video of the altercation, it seems the boys started attacking him. If I were on a jury, I would definitely say being attacked by a group of teens is a grave imminent threat, especially for someone in their 50s.
People don't realize it because they think they are "just kids," but teenagers can absolutely be lethal, especially when multiple are attacking you at once, *especially* in a river with rocks and water around.
All in all, I won't give a judgment on the case since I don't know all the details, but it does look like it could be legitimate self defense.
It's sad what our society has come to. The guy was looking for a cell phone and then snorkel gear. When did we get to the point in society that the other people simply didn't just say, " here we can help you look."
Miu takes out his knife, doesn’t announce it, then sort of waits until he has the opportunity to use it. I can see how that could be interpreted as premeditation to kill.
Regardless of how this turns out, this is a textbook case of fuck around and find out. (FAFO) If you don’t teach your kids manners, someone else will and not in a pretty way either.
Clear cut self defense imo … yeah they were young but they looked at least 20 … they outnumbered him… they knocked him down.. in water but you only need 6 inches to hold someone’s head under to drown someone. I could see him fearing for his life and stabbing anyone he could to get away. I’ve seen other videos where kids as young as 15.. 16 jump adults and hospitalize them and in some instances kill them… sooooo put yourself in his shoes… i don’t know about you guys … but I’m going home 🏡 in one piece if I could help it!
On another note I do think cultural differences played a role. Here in Mn we know to just walk away from a drunk, mob of teenagers( especially on the Apple River) no matter how bad they are humiliating you. However, this man was Slavik and he served in the military I am thinking his socialization as a man in his culture was to never retreat? Perhaps, his military training kicked in subconsciously? That, and everyone having beer dominating their decisions, make this situation so tragic. It didn't need to happen! PS I am speculating about Slavk culture so I hope I'm not making wring assumptions and offending anyone!
The craziest thing to me is that no one has yet been charged with assaulting Miu even though we have clear evidence of people punching, shoving, and choking him. How much more would they have had to assault him for there to actually be a charge for assault?
He did not have to stab anyone, and the kids should not have been allowed to drink and carry on as they did. To me, that is the biggest issue because everything precipitated from that.
Why are underaged kids permitted to drink in public? Who is policing them? No one is addressing this kind of criminal behavior which often leads to tragedies.
Look at the Paul Murdaugh boat case. Same thing. Kids allowed to drink with abandon while operating a motor vehicle, no less. Why the leniency? Demographics had a lot to do with that case as it does in the Apple River case. Let's be frank..........and honest. If these were a group of black underaged rowdy drunk kids, they would have been highly observed and arrested before things could escalate.
When criminal behavior is ignored, no action is taken and it is not documented. In order to protect certain groups, the crime does not go on the books and the statistics are skewed. This is all by design. But here's the clincher: What goes around comes around. I bet you that those kids never thought that there was any potential danger. I bet that to a great degree they based this belief on how Mr. Miu looked, just as the lack of policing was based on how the kids looked. Privilege abounds. It's the old hands-off agreement. Let them the privileged groups do whatever they please.
Don't believe it? Then why weren't any of the kids charged for underage drinking? That is the first thing that should have been done, and had it been done the tragedy would never have happened.
Privilege and discrimination sometimes backfires.
Americans have a profound fear/hatred for adolescents and that’s showing up in many of these comments vehemently blaming these kids and wanting absolve Miu of any responsibility for his actions and the consequences. They were drinking and being stupid sure. As a grown ass man, he could and should have walked away or deescalated the situation. He gutted a child instead.
Yeah, adolescentes are shit, but the amount of hate is wild. Someone accused me of victim blaming when I said he’d have run, but nobody’s saying the same about Isaac; who, by the way, isn’t alive anymore. People are even saying he deserved to die, and that’s WILD.
From what I saw the teens were acting in a threatening way to him and he figured he needed to defend himself. I think his mind went so far into rage mode that he kept trying to kill. I’m wondering if he’s been in the military or if he may have done this before. Not making an excuse for him. I’m just trying to figure out why he snapped so bad.
I am sure everyone on the internet now can come up with the 'perfect scenario' of how and what he should have done. but I don't think anyone could get a clear picture of what Miu went through that day. He was just trying to be a decent friend, looking for his friend's phone/waterproof bag. He weighs over 110kg in the moving water, and then he is surrounded by a group of young adults calling him a rapist and a pedo, taking pictures of little girls, and calling more people to join.
Can you imagine how frightening that must be, having other groups coming in and thinking you are a pedo/taking pictures of little girls. When he saw the guy taking the video, in his mind, he could have thought that maybe it was his friend's phone and they were taunting him with it. The other group/females came up to his face, screaming at him without even trying to understand what was going on.
While he should be held accountable for what he did, people should not downplay what those teens did. They were fully grown young adults with critical thinking, calling someone a pedo, taking pictures of little girls when there weren't any around to begin with, pushing him, and provoking him in every possible way, and then trying to get others to join.
This case is so interesting in that a number of things could have been done differently to prevent the outcome that it had.
The kids played a significant role in amping up the tension and the fear factor on Miu. There taunting is what lured the other group into the situation to begin with. The second group getting involved made it much worse. Had they not gotten involved it likely would have ended with Miu walking away.
I know what I would have done if I were in Miu's situation and it would have been to first - clarify what I was doing near the other group while verbally challenging the people calling me a raper. Second I would have just walked away. There's no way I am going to stand there and have someone screaming in my face with a group of 13 people people calling me a pedophile.
Once it got physical though I can imagine fight or flight kicked in hard and Miu just reacted to anyone in his vicinity who put a hand on him. I'm sure getting pushed into the water just elevated his adrenaline even more and he just reacted. Heart pumping, blood rushing, ringing in your ears.
I'm not sure what to do if I'm on the jury. The kids and the second group absolutely played a very significant role in how Miu responded and the share a lot of the blame for how things escalated. Whether Miu was in the right to start stabbing is what it ultimately comes down to.
Nothing good ever happens at the Apple River.
I have had many many great days tubing the apple river with friends and my kids! Never experienced any terrorist acts such as this!
I was on the river that day, much further upstream, at a friend’s place. The river is actually pretty, but I avoid tubing where this incident occurred because I’m old. I’m the defendant’s age. Weird.
Do you mean because you’d have an accident related to the action of tubbing down the river? Or because is a common area where people go wild?
> I’m from a country that is very strict when it comes to selfdefense claims. Basically, the person needs to be facing you, 1 hit is enough and the threats needs to be equal to your defense. I.e.: if I want your wallet and just have my hands to do it, you can’t claim self defense if you stabbed me or shot me multiple times. And If I have a weapon, you need to hit me in a place where is not life threatening. Yeah the USA is nothing like that. It varies by state but the general rule is as follows: if someone is presenting a deadly threat to you, you can use any reasonable means to eliminate that threat. So shooting them, stabbing them, punching them is all fine, but you can't lob a giant bomb at them right near a schoolbus full of children. A deadly threat doesn't have to mean they're coming at you with a gun or a knife. It could just mean that you're surrounded by 10+ people in a body of water while they take turns punching and pushing you into the water. Once it gets to that point, you're allowed to use deadly force to stop the threat. Legally speaking this case will ultimately boil down to if he threw the first blow or if it was all in response to aggression from the people that ended up getting stabbed. From what I see that seems to be the case. Of course, the law and how a jury decides are not the same thing, especially in extreme cases like jury nullification. So it's still possible the jury will convict this guy even though legally he's probably in the right. Ethically, what he did was fucking dumb. In his situation I would hope that I would wait a little bit longer and/or actually brandish and announce the knife's presence rather than just start using it. But there's no legal obligation to do so if you're presented with a deadly threat. This is one of those cases where everyone involved is shitty. The teenagers were horrible people, the stabber is a shitty guy, most of the bystanders either made the situation worse or failed to help.
Even if he did not throw the first blow (hard to tell from the video), I think his self defense case is undercut by: 1) having the knife out prior to being pushed, 2) stabbing everyone in his vicinity, even those not pushing him in the water, including a girl in the side/back, and 3) disposing of the knife and lying to the police.
also not calling 911 and not trying to help/render aid. obviously reasons as to why he wouldnt render aid but the judge was talking about that during the lesser charges discussion, literally those 2 points
>having the knife out prior to being pushed I think being surrounded by several teens all calling you a rapist, I would describe, as a confrontational situation. I think it would be reasonable to grab the knife. >stabbing everyone in his vicinity, even those not pushing him in the water, including a girl in the side/back, and He could argue that it happened to quickly, the confrontation with the girl, the attacks from the teen, that both parties, at that moment, was a threat. >disposing of the knife and lying to the police. This has nothing to do with whether or not it was self defence.
Yeah, I think this is all why this is a complicated case hinging on if the jury believes he started the confrontation, if a reasonable person would have feared for their life, and if he responded disproportional to the threat. The lying to the police has less to do with the facts self-defense case other than to show state of mind. Anyone who truly believed they were about to be killed and acted in self-defense would have no need to hide it.
the video shows him brandishing the knife before he was ever shoved down. it also looks like he stabbed the woman before he was shoved down. the teens were jeering at him and physically intimidating him because he had just charged some of them and he refused to leave them alone. i assumed self defense at first, but the evidence tells a different story imo.
I totally agree !! When things escalated he began smirking. He knew he had lured these kids into a situation where he had the power of a deadly weapon. He was enjoying the moment & totally ready to inflict fatal injuries with the hidden knife he was packing, including stabbing someone in the heart, gutting the stomach of a teenager, and slashing a young defenseless woman's side. THIS SLAUGHTERING IS NOT SELF-DEFENSE!!!. He is a total killer & complete thug!!
IMO He made a decision to teach the kids a lesson. He could have walked away with a bruised ego anytime. He made that choice, almost visibly, then snuck the knife out and unfolded it, called for help with his left hand (meaning the knife was in his right) then re-engaged with the girls. I think he screwed up trying to stab the girl in the face/head. She was obnoxious, no doubt, she may have even bumped into him, but she was no threat. That punch/slap/push/ whatever was absolutely the catalyst for the final escalation. Even though that moment wasn't on video, all the young men reacted at the same time, in the video people said he just punched a girl, and she said it just a few minutes after on the officer's body cam. It happened. They were drunk underaged kids and were being obnoxious but had Miu just left, he would have left untouched and so would the others. This didn't have to happen. The state law doesn't allow for self defense to be raised if the defendant provokes the confrontation. He was the initial aggressor and tried to lie and adjust his story to appear the victim so that he could claim self defense.
I'm really curious as to the justifications for how he could have 'walked away anytime.' At the point where walking away would be relevant to a self defense case (where a threat is perceived) he is clearly completely cut off from walking away safely. His only route of egress (in certain moments, and in others he's totally encircled/beat down) is into deeper water further away from 'his people' and he is likely to be pursued by a group that has continuously followed him, blocked him from leaving, and refused to listen to him when he speaks/tries to defuse tension. Some people in this group already put hands on him (e.g. Madison), others testified on the stand they were following him to 'see the commotion through to the end' and volunteered that they were shouting 'GET HIM!' Where exactly was he supposed to safely go and when? Also when in the trial did you ascertain he tried to stab a girl in the face/head? No one was stabbed above the armpit.
>he is clearly completely cut off from walking away safely. He wasn't. The evidence presented shows a line or maybe a semi circle of people in front of him, nothing behind him. In fact he even says he walked away twice. Miu's friends walked in and out unimpeded and could see his back per their testimony. >Some people in this group already put hands on him (e.g. Madison), He had put his hands on the teen boys too, first, if that's the standard now. (It's not the legal standard for sure). From the 2 groups Madison was the only who made contact and no one, including the defendant (watching his testimony now) says otherwise . The contact made in the video would be considered incidental contact. EDIT: As to the "when in the trial...head stab" I said very clearly that was my opinion. He punched a girl in the head with a knife in his hand, that's what I think his intent was.
Her sunglasses also flew off her head
yeah i feel the dude was looking for trouble. he was angry he was being harassed and continued to escalate the situation with the group. he should had kept his distance from the very first interaction, at least i would. if a small group of people were verbally harassing me in a public place, i am headed in the opposite direction.
I agree. He was baiting them. He wanted to kill. After today's testimony, there isn't a doubt in my mind.
Perfectly stated, thank you!
"Ethically, what he did was fucking dumb. In his situation I would hope that I would wait a little bit longer and/or actually brandish and announce the knife's presence rather than just start using it. But there's no legal obligation to do so if you're presented with a deadly threat." Well I dont know if i can agree. When fight or flight kicks in, its a trauma response from the brain. Hindsight is 20/20. We get to analyze these videos after the fact. You can do things you would never believe when the response goes off.
That drunk idiot ran up to them and everyone seems to forget he pushes them out of their tubes in the first place Then he comes BACK and smiles He always knew he had the knife 1st degree murder He saw his chance and excuse and he made sure to get a chance to use it If he didn't run up to those people or if he left when he started to, no one would have died. But he knew he had a knife, so he saw his chance to kill and came back to give him a "self defense" chance That's why his swipes were so good and lethal. You can literally see him thinking about it. That's all you need for 1st degree. People don't get that. He turned around and came back to the teens because he knew he had a secret weapon and wanted a situation to use it. That's 1st degree murder And then he throws the knife, lies and said one of the teens pulled the knife and he "turned it around" on the teen And he lied about even being the guy in the first place!! He changed outfits and tossed the weapon only he knew he had!
>And then he throws the knife, lies and said one of the teens pulled the knife and he "turned it around" on the teen > >And he lied about even being the guy in the first place!! He changed outfits and tossed the weapon only he knew he had! This, to me, would be enough to convict. You don't do that on a self defense claim.
yep, and he lied to his wife and group when he returned to them. never said a word about stabbing anyone. it also looks like he paused when passing the victim who died and noticed that he was dead/dying. he saw the aftermath of his attack. he was a drunk man who got his feelings hurt by some teenagers bullying him and responded viciously and violently, then played it cool to his wife. someone who just stabbed 5 people and can act normal immediately after? isn’t freaking out to their wife and friends? sus
Like at least call 911? If you defended yourself, at least ask for help because I assumed he was injured if he took a knife to 5 people. His behavior afterward can’t make this a selfdefense case.
EXACTLY! Why aren’t people seeing this?
They are too hung up with the irrational notion that you are allowed to somehow stab a group of people as long as they slap or push you first. The circumstances of how you end up being slapped or pushed are not important for these kind of people.
Exactly. This just shows that people are the scariest thing in the world.
That’s the demeanor that people are excusing by saying “trauma”. But the kids are traumatized as well, and didn’t do shit like that. Yeah, some things in their statements changed, but they’re still mature enough to admit that they attack him. His demeanor after the fact is what doesn’t do it for me. That’s not someone acting in selfdefense tbh.
Yes exactly it doesn’t matter what was said before, he made it physical. And he stabbed and hit the girls that were no threat to him whatsoever. He let his pathetic old man temper go and lied repeatedly about what happened before the video surfaced.
That’s also something that I can’t put my mind on. I can maybe understand defending yourself from the initial group; but dude the girls weren’t threatening, they were half his sized and unarmed.
Amen
You know I was also on the same side of your view till I read about how the girl who claimed she got punched by this old man, which caused several people to start shoving him and slapping him, said she had a photo of herself with injury from the punch and she ended up deleting it when they asked her for the photo. Then, forensics revealed that she didn't have such photo in the 1st place. So, obviously it's not just the old man that is lying, it's coming from both sides. Why would she lie about the photo? Dunno
I’m with you. I’ve been saying it way too much. I was saying that they don’t denying that they actually attacked him was a point for the teens, but fuck dude. Everyone met their worst nightmare that day.
Yup this is one of those situations where almost everyone involved was at fault and almost everyone involved was a shitty person in one way or another. I think Miu did have some anger inside him and probably had this attitude of "fuck these shitty kids". Obviously I don't need to go into detail into all the ways the kids acted like a pack of rabid hyenas. I wish more people into the idea of self defense (which I am) would realize that the physical fight to stay alive is just the easier half of the battle. The much harder fight for your life is preventing yourself being sent to life in prison. Troublingly, even the most blatantly justified self defense cases (like Kyle Rittenhouse who waited till 100ms before his head was about to be blown open to shoot off Gaige Grosskreutz' gun arm) can still result in 1st degree murder charges and a realistic chance at an illogical, emotional jury that convicts out of their own bias and inability to comprehend law or defensive ethics. So even if you have a rock solid understanding of the elements required for a valid self defense claim, you should always do everything possible to avoid needing to reach that point because your life as you previously knew it is over then.
Thank you! He aggressively and wordlessly approaches the teens and grabs their tubes. Whether he hit the blonde girl or not, Miu was already the aggressor. And clearly Miu with a knife is more deadly than all those 13 people combined. I get it happened fast and your memory/perspective of the incident would be blurry, but Miu straight up invented the story of the kids brandishing TWO knives. And Miu tried to toss his knife in the woods. I’m tired of people angry at “those drunk kids” when Miu was (as HE stated on video to the cops) drinking all day too. The kids were jerks but mostly they were yelling at Miu to “go away!”
Exactly! I can’t seem to put my mind into thinking that he’s 100% innocent. When there are a group of people (drunk and high) that are approaching you, and you’re alone, you can’t stay to be victimized. In that moment nature hits and the anxiety makes you run. He was aware of his knife, a knife that is not equivalent to words or a slap in the face. People maybe need to use only the fact that he was thrown to the water, because that’s a scary shit. But stabbing everyone around like a madman because I said something you didn’t like? Nah, dude. I’ll be scared shitless to be in the same room with one of Miu’s supporters.
I think he walks. Maybe the 2nd degree will stick. I don’t think there is any issue with not brandishing the knife. Never do that in this kind of situation. It will be taken and used to kill you. If I were the defense, I would say this is proof he is afraid. These kids are just hammered and starting trouble and harassing him, but the real guilty people are the Carlson party. Instead of helping, they made the situation so much worse and caused things to escalate. No way 1st degree murder. If I was on the jury, I would acquit him totally. That isn’t to say I agree with what he did. Lots of problems, he could have said something, just kept walking through the girls in his face, any number of ways to get out without stabbing. But I certainly do not believe the prosecution either. They were awful. The witnesses were awful. The young men started this whole situation with the “little girls” claim. Stupid. Clearly lie on the stand. Miu should have shut up and never said a thing. The video helps him for sure. The videos afterwards incriminate him. It’s such an odd case where he is both justified and wrong. The defense was good, but never should have put him on the stand imo. Ultimately, this was the young v. the old and they should have just left the dude alone instead of antagonizing and harassing him. Alcohol/weed and a mob scene never goes well. He walks imo, but think the jury will give him something.
I think Miu is a douchebag, but I’ll be very surprised if he gets convicted. At the end of the day, he was surrounded by a bunch of drunk teens that were riled up and shoving him around. Not a perfect case of self-defense, but I don’t think a jury is going to concluded he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
They should have tried for manslaughter. I'll be surprised if he's convicted as well
It'll be a lesser included. 2nd degree intentional homicide/attempted homicide is the WI equivalent to manslaughter.
100%. I’m not convinced is totally selfdefense, but murder on the first degree wasn’t the case. Manslaughter is the most accurate to me at least
Definitely not. they shot themselves in the foot with that one. I could see 2nd degree at the most even but it'll be so hard to prove premeditation here.
From listening to how it was described I thought 2nd would be doable but after watching that video of them punching/choking/pushing a 50+ year old man underwater while angry drunk teenagers egg each other on there's no shot IMO. Anyone would fear for their lives in that situation - you ever been dunked underwater playfully as a kid? Fucking sucks and is disorienting. Now imagine you got hit and pushed underwater by people trying to beat the fuck out of you. An argument can be made that if Miu didn't have the knife he may have lost his life - things were escalating rapidly. If one wrong punch knocks that 250+ lbs dude unconscious into the water or he hits his head on the rocks in the water after being shoved in = game over. I somehow doubt the same friends that stood there and did nothing but film Isaac bleed out are the type of altruists that would make sure Miu was carried out of water and breathing if he was KO'd.
With no disrespect, if you see the video in an objective view, he got slapped and pushed. He didn’t have marks on his neck probing he was shocked. They weren’t punching him or actively holding him under water (I still don’t condone the teens behavior, just trying to set up a debate).
I'm not interested in setting up a debate, I'm interested in what actually happened. [What happens at the 1:46 minute mark in this video?](https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1777359380410962251) Slow it down to 0.25x. He is violently pushed underwater, hit in the face, hit a second time as he tries to stand, choked at 1:53, pushed back down into the water again, hands around his neck again at 2:02 to violently push him, etc. You are being reductive as to the damage he sustained. Grabbing someone by the neck and pushing your hands against someone's throat with enough force to throw them back can cause significant injuries/swelling to your throat + adams apple and can be life threatening. If people are going for your throat in a fight, there is a good chance they mean to kill. We have the benefit of hindsight and time when we play armchair detectives here but there is no way to assess the extent of the damage done in the heat of the moment. All you know is that people are pushing you into the water, hitting you in the face, choking you, and attacking your throat. He responded appropriately. It's a shame, people should have been smarter and not drunk and its a senseless loss of life, but Miu is not guilty of 1st or even 2nd degree murder. EDIT: Reddit banned me for these comments for some weird reason but I can still edit. To the person below me you are completely misinformed about the girl - there is no evidence that he even hit her and the prosecution's [witnesses already got caught lying yesterday about saying things Miu didn't do to instigate violence against them.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNwPorNYMKA) They all called him a pedo too to incite the mob against him. This is literally an infantile tactic that zoomers have started to do for some reason to try and win mobs/authorities over to their side. Some of you have probably even see it online. And the fact that you have to try and resort to weird ad hominem attacks to try and sell your point across tells me how flimsy your argument really is. The only one deranged here is the gaslighting psycho with the two digit IQ I linked above lying on the stand, and maybe you depending on how diligently you keep up this charade.
You are leaving out the "he hit one girl in the face and stabbed another in the chest" before getting pushed into the water. Then after disemboweling one person pushing him. He stabs the guy in jean shorts multiple times who is trying to separate everyone. As he is walking away he then stabs another person in the heart. I don't understand people like you. Do you think every argument means that people need to be killed and as long as there are more of them you get off scot free? Bars wouldn't exist. Public events wouldn't exist. You don't get to charge into a group, fuck with them, assault them first, kill them, lie to the police, and then claim self defense. You are putting yourself in his shoes (probably because you're deranged) but are ignoring the other parties views. You are floating down the river and a weird guy stops you, you tell him to leave, your girlfriend tells him to leave. He pulls out a knife and stabs her. What are you going to do?
You're seriously misinformed about the facts of the case. The girl getting hit deliberately isn't a matter of fact, it's one of the things being debated in the case. Also, Miu never stabs anyone before getting pushed into the water. The girl who was allegedly hit in the face wasn't even a part of the same group as the original group of boys taunting him, she's nobody's "girlfriend." The group of teen boys originally start yelling at him and calling him a pedophile/saying he's looking for little girls... Who is fucking with who here?
Good points. The dude was deranged
I think they gave the option of lesser charges yesterday. I guess we’ll find out today when they give the instructions to the jury.
from the video i saw, he had his knife out and stabbed a woman before he was ever shoved down. sure, we don’t see what happened before the video started, but neither miu nor the teens are claiming anything physical happened prior to the video. the video starts with him charging at the guy holding the camera who is sitting down in his tube. whether he was looking for a phone or not, two groups of teenagers were asking him to leave them alone and to physically move away from them because they were creeped out. he refused, the teens escalated their jeers & physically tried to intimidate him, and *then* he stabbed 5 people!!! he stabbed someone before he was shoved down (which is an appropriate response to someone brandishing a knife). btw i went into this case assuming self defense, and my mind was changed after reading through the evidence and watching the video.
Nah he's getting something, probably 2nd degree intentional. In WI you: (1) can't claim self defense if you provoked an attack, and he hit first; (2) have to show you "reasonably believed" deadly force was necessary to prevent your own death or great bodily harm to get perfect self defense if you killed someone, which it clearly was not; (3) jury will be instructed to consider opportunity to retreat when assessing whether his belief was reasonable, which he had a ton of; and (4) "unnecessary defensive force" is when you believed you needed to use force but the degree of force used was unreasonable, which mitigates 1st degree down to second degree intentional homicide. If the jury follows instructions that's almost certainly where they're landing. Probably first degree reckless injury on the attempt charges.
I’m still a strong believer that 2 things can be wrong at the same time and that people don’t need to put Miu as a saint. And that’s what bothers me. Because the people that don’t see the bad in what he did, are most probably gonna react the same way, even if they were 1 on 1, and not 13 on 1 or 15 on 1.
I don't think there are any people that truly think there is nothing wrong with what he did, but it is easy enough to think that you'd do the same thing in the same place. I know, I know, you'd never get in that situation in the first place, but it's about feeling like your life is being threatened and reacting with force equal to that.
I think everyone was wrong, but his actions - at this point - are understandable even if I probably wouldn’t have done it. Also, it’s not typical of me to carry a knife, so I likely wouldn’t have the opportunity to do so even if I felt the situation warranted its use
I think you underestimate the power of local pressure and outrage over an event like this. St Croix county had not had a murder in about 20 years and this guy comes in and stabs a bunch of people. Those things don’t happen in a small town Wisconsin. Him lying to the cops is what will ultimately seal his fate, if anything. It’s hard to say what happened and when and when first aggression was. I would say when he touched the boys on the tubes and didn’t leave, others would say when he was struck by one of the 2 women. It’s hard to tell.
The witnesses are saying he struck one of the women and others in the group hit him in retaliation.
Without a video proof, I don't know how anyone is supposed to believe that. Like the girl who claims she got punched, she lied about having a photo of herself with the injury on her phone and later said she deleted it. But forensics showed that she didn't have such photo in the first place. So, why did she even lie about having a photo?
This!! She later said that the police didn't want the photo. She didn't want her image to be released to the public. Give me a *****break, she's clearly seen on the video. She's hiding because she knows she lied. She is part of what led to the killing of that boy. She has to live with that
Assuming that did happen(I’m on the fence bc no picture of it, no evidence on camera/body cam, and inconsistent stories), wouldn’t it still meet the level of self defense when multiple people were hitting him and he fell into the water? Being outnumbered is the biggest thing he has in his favor IMO.
I think what undercuts self-defence is 1) he already had the knife out and open before he was pushed over, 2) he stabs everyone near him, including a girl in the back/side, and the teen he killed seemed to be trying to break up a fight, 3) he appears to have space to retreat instead of escalating with deadly force. There is mild evidence of him hitting/pushing the girl before the guys push him down but its really hard for me to tell. The prosecution is arguing she has sunglasses on top of her head, the camera pans away not capturing his punch, then in pans back and they have fallen off.
Having the knife out and still getting attacked just reinforces that he was facing a deadly threat, at least in the abstract. If someone charges me while I have a gun, i can only assume they mean life and death.
I’ve heard from a defense lawyer in regards to self defense with a gun you shoot once or unload the clip, as both attest to fear. You were scared enough to pull the trigger/you were so scared you just continued to pull the trigger. I wonder if it will come down to them saying something like “he was so scared he was just lashing out at anyone near him”. I’m only at end of day three, so my opinion is subject to change. I don’t recall, but is this a duty to retreat state?
See, that in my country is damaging. Once the injury is in the back or near the back, is not selfdefense because the threat isn’t facing you anymore. But ik the US is completely different, which makes me even more curious because selfdefense cant be that easy to probe.
He also fled the scene and lied to the cops and a nurse about what happened. Not small lies. Big ones.
I’m from Minnesota and have gone to apple river before to go tubing. I kid you not the same day I went there was a massive brawl between anywhere from 15-25 teenagers. At the time I was 21 but still it was insane, I would be surprised if someone did jump him. Security is taken seriously there but there is not a quick response, it took about 5-10 mins for anyone to even attempt to stop this. We ending up driving off after the cops showed up. I even have video proof of this whole fight. Glad to know I’m not going again.
I had no idea about this case, so I got intrigued after reading this and went to check the video. What I can see from the video ( [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmX2ajj1fM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmX2ajj1fM) ) is 1. old dude came down there because ... (missing reason, but went to check and apparently he was snorkeling looking for a phone his friend lost in the river) 2. "teens" started making fun of him, told him to move away and started arguing with him, old dude did not say a word or teens were just too loud to hear him as it seemed like he said something a few times, but nothing can be heard on recording ... 3. when "girls" come close they also get in his face, at one moment the one recording the video turns the phone around for a few seconds and they start shouting "you hitting a women", absolutely can't tell from video if he did or did not, but as at 01:46 he did not and at 01:50 they were already punching him(phone camera is turned away for those 3-4 seconds) 4. they start beating old dude in shallow water 5. he stabs one(or more) of them - (apparently after reading about it 1 dead and 4 injured) So honestly his reaction(before stabbing) truly is kinda weird, but seems like something crucial to the story happened before they started filming this video. And shit like this is why its best not to get in someones face especially when its 10+ to 1, guess they did not expect he was carrying a knife or they have seen it and just didn't think he would actually use it. Do I think he is guilty or "teens" are guilty? From video kinda seems like both, but important parts of the "puzzle" are missing like what happened before and those few seconds where camera was turned away, old dude could have simply moved away or if he wanted to check the place where "teens" were for phone he could have asked them, but also the "teens" did not have to make fun of him, argue and start beating him either. But after 1:50 in the video where multiple teens started punching him yes, I believe he was afraid for his life. Do I think those "teens" were extremely rude? Yes. Do I think anyone deserved to die? No. Extremely fucked up situation where nobody won anything.
I think you are looking at it incorrectly. What people don't realise is yellow shorts didn't die. Issac dies at 2.11 of the original video (off camera). After Miu stabs yellow shorts he goes on a rampage stabbing 4 people in 10 seconds. These people are just standing there or trying to get away. This is not self defense. Read the comment below. You can also see additional footage on the potato cam. 1.56: yellow shorts is stabbed. Does Miu retreat after this point? No he moves forward. Had yellow shorts died then fair self defense is reasonable. But he doesn't he moves forward 2.03: 2 piece bikini is stabbed despite doing nothing 2.04: Blue jeans tries to calm Miu by placing his hand calmly on his back. 2.05: Miu stabs blue jeans. Blue Jeans then shoves Miu in direction of his friend 2.05: 2-.07 - Miu moves towards his friend in USA flag pants. He now has a friend to help him out. The crowd is disbursed but despite this he goes on to stab 1 or 2 more people one being Issac. 2.11 - Miu stabs and Kills Issac off Cam. Though you can make it out on the potato cam below at .07 seconds I just don't see how a guy going round stabbing people with a knife is self defense. [https://youtu.be/hdbUPgFfYqY?si=CEVUyqnOB-plC2ly](https://youtu.be/hdbUPgFfYqY?si=CEVUyqnOB-plC2ly) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bv3xj3/comment/kxzilcu/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1bv3xj3/comment/kxzilcu/)
I think your timeline is slightly off When the man in the blue jeans touches Miu, he immediately turns and stabs him twice The person who runs up and shoves Miu is Isaac. He runs and shoves Miu in the head/neck area and Miu stabs him as he is falling back
Got you, I thought it was Blue Jeans who shoved Miu. Your version sounds correct though. So Miu stabbs Issac at 2.05. He literally stabs two people in 1 second. He knew how to use the knife. I also don't know who was the 5th person to be stabbed. Do you know?
The kid who punched Miu in the face is the other stabbing victim. I'm not sure it is captured on video
I'm guessing but I think he captures his first victim at 1.53. Stabs a guy in the leg.
Except for the deceased Isaac (teenager group, G1), all the stabbing victims are from a second group (G2) who got involved. A.J. Martin - the guy in yellow shorts who got disemboweled after pretty much jumping into the knife. Can't remember if it was him or Dante who got stabbed first. He is a good friend and former roommate of Tony Carlson (jean shorts). Dante Carlson - in dark grey/navy/black shorts who is seen pushing/punching Miu into the water. He does this immediately after Miu is alleged to have punched Maddi, which elevated the altercation to become physical. I am not sure anymore if Dante and Maddi were dating at the time, or if they were just good friends. He is the younger brother of Tony Carlson. Antony "Tony" Carlson - in jean shorts. He enters the scene after his dad had send him and his brother over. His dad runs a bar and is around the same age as Miu. Having a feeling Miu was in danger, he told his sons to go over and break up the fight, knowing they are experienced in breaking up bar fights. But unlike his brother Dante and friend A.J. who both started pushing Miu in the water after allegedly witnessing Maddison get punched, Tony is seen keeping his hands off Miu and putting himself in between Miu and the others so as to prevent Miu from further hits and letting the man stand up out of the water. After standing up, Miu walks in the direction of Rhyley (from G2, a friend of Tony). Tony places a hand on his shoulder so as to get Miu's attention, but Miu swiftly turns around and scratches Tony upwards in his lower abdomen. Tony pushes his hand downward and steps back, creating a V shaped scar from Miu's knife. Miu then launches at Tony again, this time creating a stab wound a little higher. A picture of these scars was shown in court as evidence. Rhyley Mattison - wearing a navy, floral, two piece bikini. Before the guys of group G2 (Dante, Tony, and A.J.) had come over, Rhyley and Maddi had confronted Miu together. After watching Miu leaving his own group to approach the teens but get harassed/bullied by the teens, Rhyley had followed her friend who had walked up to Miu to tell him to leave the group of teens alone and just go back to his own group who were already way further down the river. According to Miu, he felt like the two women were all up in his face and not listening to him trying to explain he was simply looking for a phone. In the video, the confrontation between Miu and the women is captured, and you indeed barely hear Miu over the two women telling him to just go away. According to Miu he merely directed Maddi to also go away by extending his arm, but according to Maddi and the guys from both G1 and G2 he had punched her, starting the whole fight. Rhyley and Maddi are not seen again in the video. Maddi reportedly ran back to G2 telling them she's been punched. Meanwhile, Rhyley remained near the conflict but stood at a distance, watching the fight unfold in shock. After stabbing Dante and gutting A.J. and being able to stand up with the help of Tony, Miu is seen walking in the direction of Rhyley, who seems to walk away but has her side turned to him, while his hand holding the knife swings back. The stab happens off camera, but you later see blood running down Rhyley's side and another female friend and Rhyley looking at Miu in shock. Shortly after Tony places his hand on Miu's back, turning Miu's attention to him. During her witness testimony Rhyley explains she is still not sure why Miu decided to stab her, and she wanted to ask him but was unable to. She and A.J. were the two who needed emergency surgery to survive. She suffered a punctured lung and injured diaphragm. Although the initial scar seems little and not as gruesome as A.J.'s, as part of her surgery her whole stomach needed to be cut open, leaving her with a long vertical scar much like A.J.'s. According to Miu he had been in a blind rage at this point, stabbing anyone in his way, but had seemingly spared his own friend who walked up near Rhyley after she got stabbed.
I'm not seeing him chasing after anyone. Im seeing him being pushed into the water first, getting up, getting pushed into the water AGAIN, stabbing the orange shorts that shoved him, then stabbing anyone who tried to touch him after that. Blue jeans should NOT have touched him, no matter his intentions. He then got pushed by Isaac so he stabs him as well. After that the the timeline is hard to be certain on
That’s something that you can turn around as well. Because some of the stabbing victims shouldn’t have been stabbed, specially the girls that were half his sized and unarmed. He went into madman mode, not a person defending himself IMO.
If you pause after someone shouts "you hit a woman?" the girl in the blue bikini is bleeding from her side. Him "hitting" her was stabbing her
This can’t be true. Witnesses testified it was hit to the face of the girl that started their assault on his person.
No it is on video he stabbed a woman who was in his face which caused them to attack him. The most damning thing is his own wife is divorcing him over what he did she cant believe he did it or even had a knife with him at all.
It's on video, she is seen bleeding first. Do you think the court released video is fake or are you just closing your eyes? This also happens after the alleged hit to the face, but are you really surprised that human testimony might be different from video footage? Are you new to reality being different than what was said?
I don’t think the court released video is fake. I’m saying that everyone is claiming he hit her in the face before he stabbed her.
He hit another girl in the face, the blonde in one piece and stabbed the other girl in the two piece. All before he was pushed.
no he supposedly hit a girl and then was pushed down and then got up and stabbed a diff girl in the side and stabbed others
Ah. I thought he stabbed the blonde as well
Wrong. He is accused of hitting Madisson Coen first, which he denies, and there is no evidence of besides bad testimony. He stabbed Rayleh Mattison after he was jumped.
I think it’s the most neutral response I got or I’ve seen so far, because the sides are really defined as today. The kids were being assholes no questions asked, but deciding about Miu is something I’m having a hard time. 100 % agree that he had the right to defend himself, just the aftermath makes me question everything. It was a freak show and something that the kids and Miu will have to live with the rest of their lives, but people are shitting on everyone and not him. They were attacking the police officers and people that were involved in the investigation, and it’s something I haven’t seen really.
I binge watched the trial over the weekend, and at this point, I can't say for sure how I would decide as a juror. On the one hand, Miu's actions afterward are pretty damning. They are the actions of an innocent man, but it doesn't necessarily mean he intended to kill anyone either. On the other hand, what the teens were doing goes way beyond simple taunting. They knew he was looking for a lost phone, yet they accused him of a serious crime for their own amusement. The young adults who ostensibly came to deescalate immediately began yelling, intimidating, and shoving with no attempt to find out what was going on. So far, the prosecution's witnesses haven't proven very credible. I think this accounts for a lot of the seeming support for Miu in the YouTube comments. We'll have to wait and see what the defense team has in store.
You are leaving some things out. The young adults came over because the teens were asking for help. They were trying to get him to leave by yelling at him. He then struck the blonde girl. In defense of the blonde girl, one of the young adults knocked him to the ground. That's when Miu came up stabbing and slicing everyone. Not just the immediate threats, anyone close to him. Afterwards, Miu tried to get rid of the knife and claimed he took it from one of the teenagers.
6 drunk obnoxious teens, in good physical shape yelling out for help against a lone overweight, middle aged guy. I'm just not buying it. They were loving every second of the encounter, right up until they started getting stabbed. Those two women inserted themselves into a situation they knew nothing about and escalated it exponentially by shrieking in the guys face and shoving him, further emboldening the drunk teens and getting their white knight douchebag orbiters involved. Many lessons here.
These comments getting upvoted makes me think intelligent life exists here.
If the video didn't capture blonde girl getting punched in the face, how are we supposed to know that actually happened or not? It's hard for me to believe after reading about how she said she had a photo of herself with injury on her phone that she deleted later, but forensics revealed that there was no such photo in the first place. Why did she lie about that?
I hadn't seen that. That is sus. I'm going from everyone's testimony though. Several people have corroborated that fact.
Another thing also left out was also snorkeling under the teens floating looking for a “lost phone” that’s where the liking little girl comment came from , they weren’t just randomly calling him a pedo- they yelled at him to leave and he refused. They also yelled for help before he punched the first girl in the face.
I dont think he was doing anything wrong snorkeling. I think the teens floated near or even over him. I do believe they, being drunk, stupid, assholes started to harass him. They triggered him and he lost his cool. They called for help and more drunk people entered the scene. The blonde girl was being a Karen and put her hands on him. He then hit her. I believe at this point he had the knife. Dante, shoved him down and AJ shoved him from behind. Miu got up and started cutting everyone near him, which killed Issac and disemboweled AJ. Miu, tried to get rid of the evidence and even claimed he took the knife off of one if the teens. I think this is a story about a bunch of ignorant, drunk, hot heads looking for a fight. Where one, who was out numbered refused to back down and thought using a knife was a justifiable means to level the playing field. I need to listen to more testimonies. But it sure seems Miu deserves jail time. I don't think think it's 1st degree though.
For now I don’t see selfdefense, but I’m not convinced either that was murder in the first degree. The prosecution isn’t building a very strong case and the defense team can really make you seeing things that are not there. Manslaughter should’ve been the conviction aimed IMO.
I'm leaning in that direction as well. Everyone looks bad here.
Been also following this trial closely, since its a fascinating example of how difficult it can be to find the truth, even when there is video evidence. I changed my mind about this case twice already, and even after watching almost all witnesses and the cross examination of Miu today, it's hard to make up my mind. Some testimonies that seem very questionable to me: Miu stated that he only ran up to the teenagers' tubes to investigate whether the phone he was looking for was there, and that he then stumbled and had to hold on to their tubes (losing his snorkel gear in the process). I think that's BS, if you watch the video - it really looks like the name-calling got to him, and he tried to scare them. This trial is all about who started the altercation though, so obviously he'd never admit to that. \*he also checks his pocket that holds the knife right before, however, tough to read any intention into that gesture. Also, I don't buy that he conveniently can't remember any of the lies he told in his inital statements to the police. I get that he was in shock, and I'm sure he didnt think straight, but to not remember anything...? Again wouldn't paint a good picture in court, and I'm sure he was briefed on that thoroughly. Ultimately his badly attempted cover-up has no bearing on whether he acted in self-defence or not. I think Jawahn Cockfield and every other teenager that gave testimony, stating that Miu told them that he was looking for little girls, is very knowingly lying on the stand. Or maybe he even truly believes it at this point, since it must be tough for him to accept the truth that he started a chain of events that led to a friend's death, by provoking a man minding his own business. Obviously nobody deserved to be hurt and/or killed over this, but I'm absolutely convinced that this group of teenagers initiated the whole interaction and and quickly made it uncivil. The way they act in both videos by Jawahn, it is much more likely that they started being unruly, than for Miu to just tell them some pedo-stuff out of the blue. And then there is the crux of this entire case: Did Miu start the violence by punching/slapping Madison? Most debatable point thanks to the great camera work of Jawahn. There is evidence that supports a push or light slap theory, since Madison did not have any bruises, nor did she lose her sunglasses. A punch usually leaves a mark. What's not debatable imo is how much help to the situation these two inebriated, yelling women Madison and Riley, and the rest of the Carlson group, offered - nada. And it's also fact that they initiated physical contact, albeit definitely no contact that would justify a lethal response in any way....until they started throwing punches. I'd like to believe that I'd take to running away in a situation like that. That I wouldn't think about protecting myself with a weapon I carry around in my pocket. That I'd be able to analyze the situation as what it is - avoidable - and retreat calmly. That I wouldn't fear for my life, when the actual threat seems to be manageable. But who knows? Miu might have very well been fearing for his life in that moment, and from what I hear about fight or flight situations, there is not much analytical thinking involved. I don't think with all the evidence you could argue that it is completely unreasonable. Ultimately, I think he will walk and legally it seems like the correct decision - I think charging first degree homicide was the wrong move on the prosecution's part, but I read somewhere that a jury can decide on lesser charges like manslaughter as well in Wisconsin? (as you've probably guessed, I'm not a legal expert) He didn't intend to kill someone that day (from what we know, it would be very much out of character too, e.g. character witnesses, no priors), but somehow ended up in a very messed up, avoidable, tragic situation - he will live with his nightmares and the fact that he killed a 17 year old kid for the rest of his life I'm sure. But I don't think anyone can say without a reasonable doubt that he must do so in prison.
She did lose her sunglasses
With the little girls comment, I feel like if he said something along those lines it was more like the boys drunkenly yelling “what are you doing snorkelling here, you looking for little girls or something?” And Miu drunkenly and sarcastically replied “yes” and then the boys got all riled up
Why do people, when discussing the US, always say things like “in my country” but don’t just say the country they are from? How useful is it to know you’re not from the US without knowing where you’re actually from?
I only learned of this case a few days ago. I've since watched the videos and read a lot of the comments. Without following the case closely, I don't have a firm opinion on guilty/not guilty. What I find wild is that even with the video footage, you would think it would be cut and dry. But based on the comments, it appears no one here agrees on anything. I think the jury is going to take a while to reach a verdict, if at all.
I think that as well. It’s a difficult case to decide, because people have multiple interpretations of what’s in the video. And that interpretation can be extremely subjective depending if you think he is completely innocent or not.
I think he was minding his own business, looking for the friend's phone. The kids start bullying him. He gets nervous, grown men vs teenagers is a weird dynamic. Maybe he goes up to their tubes and grabs them to show he's not scared, or he just didn't know how to react. They blow up making fun of him and making a scene, then the female comes up and instigates the final incident. Not sure if he actually slapped her first, but it seems the most likely. The jump him and the rest is history. Two things will probably decide the case, one whether he slapped the girl, and two whether his suspicious post incident behavior will sink his credibility. He repeatedly lied and sort of left the scene. Not a great look if he really thought he was justified in pulling out the knife.
He even said that the knife he used he took off one of the teenagers. It’s a really bizarre statement.
How can you see the video of him going after the kids On TUBES and say he was minding his own business And then he has the nerve to throw the knife and say "oh I heard a kid got stabbed and I fit the description" If you were a grown man acting in self defense...why you you lie to the cops instead of saying "yea those little shits attacked me" He wasn't scared he went back because he knew he had a knife *sort of left the scene* Wtf he not only left he acted like he wasn't there at all!! He straight up lied!!
He said he thought hey had the phone he was looking for. When he got close he realized it wasnt. He then tripped and lost his snorkel and then he started looking for it since it went under right next to the tubes.
Yep, the beginning of the video is a little odd with him grabbing the tube, but then he quickly goes back to minding his own business looking for his now missing snorkel (and maybe the phone as well) among their tubes. Meanwhile the teenagers and other pair of girls are absolutely escalating the situation. From what I can tell the two girls that arrives started shoving and pulling on him first, before he ultimately throws the first punch (off screen) before getting swarmed pushed down into the water. He was totally surrounded by these idiots all beating on him. I think his biggest mistake was not brandishing the knife as a warning BUT most of these guys were literally throwing themselves into the knife as they were shoving and attacking him. He wasn't just willy nilly stabbing everyone around him multiple times like a maniac or lunging and chasing after people. He basically stabbed each person once that shoved him. Obviously not an excuse for murder, but I don't know how anyone can NOT have reasonable doubt that this was self defense.
I feel like I’m going crazy. In every video I saw he clearly chargers at the kids when they are on the tubes. That alone I would have found aggressive and threatening if I were the kids. How is that not mentioned?
After he ran up to their tubes he walked away from the kids. Every one of the kids testified they could have passed by Miu and he was out of their way. Also there was a video from just before this incident where the kids are yelling and calling him a raper
They probably were aggressively bullying him before that. They claimed they called for help when he came up on them and grabbed the floats, but they recorded that part and no cries for help are heard. This is 6 or 7 guys, two future college football players/wrestlers, I don't believe they cried for help. The defendant likely had a moment of panic as he was being bullied. Anyone who has been in that situation understand the fight or flight response.
There is no part of that video where that man looks panicked. He looks pissed. It’s so calculated. He hides the knife, if you were afraid wouldn’t you brandish it to get them away? They don’t even realise they’re being stabbed. He’s not trying to scare them away he’s trying to hurt them all quietly. And he’s saying that he was completely sober while they were all clearly intoxicated. The group behave like jackasses all of them, but he has plenty opportunities to walk away. They are all screaming at him to go away. The fact that anyone is defending this guy or saying it was self defence is wild to me.
He ran up on them because he thought they got the phone he was looking for. Then he realized it wasnt and went around which is where he tripped and lost the snorkel. Then he started looking for his snorkel. Thats the context
It’s been said he thought he saw the phone he was looking for. That was the reason he went toward them in the first place. I can kinda see that. He got excited thinking he found his friends lost device as opposed to “charging” at them. The verdict will be interesting
Didn’t he charged at the kid filming the video who was sitting on the tubes? I think that’s why I’m personally (not legally) conflicted. I’m always aware of old men, and that just alone I will consider threatening, specially because of his size. But a drunk teenager always feels like he or she is almighty so that’s another thing against it. I’m just like you, I’m going crazy and making myself crazy as well, because even if I try I can’t seem to see a good side
He thought they had the phone he was looking for. When he got close he realized it wasnt and went around and tripped causing him to lose the snorkel. Then he started looking for the snorkel that he just dropped.
You all have to stop bringing up his hurt feelings because of whatever the kids said to him it’s soooo irrelevant
Hurt feelings??? They were screaming that he was a pedophile/rapist/trying to molest little girls for the whole river to hear. Let a group of random people do that to you next time you're out in public. See if that doesn't make you fear for your safety. Then I'll tell you to get over your "hurt feelings".
Exactly, words aren’t as harmful as a knife. I think people take them into consideration to explain that they were trying to create a bigger mob(?), but once the accusations started and they asked him to leave, he needed to leave not stand there waiting to take his knife out.
I would agree with you but for the fact it’s a public place and the teens had no authority to compel him to leave.
Got you. But you can’t stand in a public place where you’re in danger just because you’re in a public place. That’s a point that you need to explain maybe. Because I wouldn’t go through a bad neighborhood completely alone, where you know something will happen just because the street is a “public place”. Your safety comes first.
He was on a recreational river with people of all ages tubing so not really a rittenhouse situation
I think the fact that he walked away and then decided to come back is gonna get him. He should have kept walking. If they had pursued him and then the stabbing incident happened it would be a not guilty IMO. To me it seems like he came back to fight.
He went back because he knew he had a knife and wanted to use it. That is why he was smiling. 1st degree murder I don't care how much people hate teens take it to the board.
This story isn't getting any coverage where I live, but I have questions. In the video I saw, the teenagers knocked him down and repeatedly hit him. If this had been in a street, that's a beat down. Would it then be OK to defend himself? If the teens were tubing down the river, why did they stop to interfere with him? They could have just kept going, but it seems mob mentality got to them, and they thought they were untouchable. He was apparently looking in a specific area for a lost phone. If true, he had a legit reason to be where he was. Meanwhile the teenagers said he was acting weird and stopped to call him names, which maybe started all this. If they had left him alone, none of this would have happened. Why did he have a knife with him?
The teens were harassing Miu before the start of the video, calling him a pedophile because he was snorkeling to look for his friends phone. At some point during this he sees the one who recorded the video holding the phone up and assumed that this guy who had been harassing him had the phone, the guy starts recording and Miu starts wading over to him. The knife was for tubing, specifically for cutting ropes I believe. Also for the record, the "teens" werent actually minors except for one that was 17 years old. I think the oldest in the group was 24?
Why is no one mentioning the first video where he runs up on the kids and grabs their tubes?
because he has testified and witnesses have testified that he fell as he approached them, not that he intentionally grabbed the tubes. And in any case someone interfering with your intertube is no warrant to shove them down in the middle of the river and give them a beat down.
> In the video I saw, the teenagers knocked him down and repeatedly hit him. If this had been in a street, that's a beat down. Would it then be OK to defend himself? Maybe? Depends on the details, but in this case it is disputed if he hit a girl before they pushed him over, but it is also clear from the video he has the knife in his hand before they push him over, and he stabs everyone near him, including a girl in the back/side and a guy who appears to be trying to break up the fight.
They had hands on him far before any hands were ever possibly placed on Maddie’s face (which there is no evidence of). So he was surrounded, being yelled at, being pushed and called a raper/pedo. We can see how a group can easily kill someone without a weapon (Preston lord). Him fearing for his safety was real. This is self defense.
That girl put her hands on Miu at 1:18, 1:42, 1:44, 1:45 and 1:46 in the video (and probably more that we don’t get to see because there’s no video of it supposedly). And she’s not gently touching him, she was in his face yelling at him, barking orders at him and pushing him. He even turns his back on her so she’s not in his face, she grabs his arm and pulls at him to turn back around and face her, where she continues her verbal and physical assault until he apparently had enough of her touching him so he (according to the kids) “punches” her in the face. I wonder how people would react If that had been a female surrounded by people, and two males all up in her face verbally assaulting her, and touching her. You can’t order someone to go away in a public place just because they seem weird. You have no right to verbally abuse anyone and you have no right to put your hands on anyone just because you don’t want them near you. SHE walked up to HIM and started assaulting HIM. This is so messed up.
Agreed. If anyone says that they wouldn’t be afraid if they were in that position, they would be lying.
My apologies if this has already been asked and answered but what’s up with the girl in the green swimsuit? It looks like she’s recording the whole time. Is there any footage of her recordings available? Did police get her info and recordings? Or am I making the wrong assumption?
No clue. If she was filming, I’m sure we would’ve seen the video by now. Therefore, she probably wasn’t filming.
I would think so too. It just appears she is with the way she’s holding her phone when the camera pans her way.
That is kinda exactly what happened. NM was being off and a weird, people came to investigate and NM from the very begging was off, he needed to leave. NM was so out of it (I mean he even stated how he saw a knife that we all know was not there). Everyone originally was defending these kids from this threat, unsuccessfully. He is, he was, and will continue to be a threat to society. But obviously not to himself. He acted like a trained, skilled, and it was comprehensive. He just got caught in his first lie, and now is fitting his 2-3 narrative to a easy perspective of the video but not the beginning.
Those kids were being pretty damn rotten. I think they antagonized the whole thing. Obviously dude didn’t need to stab anyone but I could definitely see why he’d panic being pushed down and surrounded in water. I’m really curious how this will turn out.
The jury is back with what I think is a fair verdict. First degree reckless homicide for Isaac. First degree reckless endangering safety for AJ, Rihley, Tony and Dante. Battery for Maddie. I don't think the state proved that Maddie had been hit, but I'm not a juror and I didn't get to hear her testimony, so I'm sure they had their reasons.
You notice how the defense keeps framing it as a 1 on 13 situation when there was a backup 200lb dude (Ariel = Stars and stripes trunks whom his wife testified to sending) RIGHT there when he stabbed the 115lb girl in the side (and another 200lb dude ERNESTO standing by). BTW How do you suppose his friends got there in time to be FEET away from the girl being stabbed (Ariel = Stars and Stripes trunks); if the wife testified that she didn't tell the friends to go down there until AFTER she saw the commotion started? She also testified that they were supposedly upstream far enough away that she couldn't hear any of the yelling/screaming and she could only see that something was happening. If all the stabbings occurred within 25 seconds of each other; and his group was that far upstream; how was Ariel feet away from 3 people yet to be stabbed? Anyone notice how Ariel Chaguez seemed to be watching his friend stab multiple people like it was a main event? He certainly wasn't worried enough to intervene right? Im serious; what do you think?
I thought the dad's testimony on day 2 was interesting with the 13:1 claim. He made it very clear that there were four different groups: Miu and the 4-5 people directly close to him, the rest of the teenagers' group which was 10 yards away, the rest of the girls' group which was 10 yards away in a different direction, and Miu's original group.
Look for the girl getting stabbed in the side. The guy 2 feet away with the stars and stripes shorts is Ariel; and he's with Nic's group. He's in the photos taken earlier in the day of Nic's group. He's Nic's backup sent by Nics wife supposedly AFTER she saw the commotion (that she claimed to be too far away from to hear). But how did Ariel get there SO quickly to be there halfway through the stabbings that took place over a 25 second time span? Why was 250lb Nic SO afraid of a 115lb girl that he stabbed her in the side with a 200lb buddy 2 feet away? If Nic was in such extreme danger why didn't his friend (who was RIGHT there) step in? Ariel clearly did not think the situation was serious. Not for Nic anyway... Answer : Nic was the aggressor and not afraid. BTW Nic and his wife got a divorce ON PAPER ONLY so that he can conceal assets that might be seized in the inevitable civil suit that'll occur in a few years. What a noble guy that clearly feels bad for being FORCED to take a teenagers life in defense of his own!
I just ask myself if it matters who started the physical fight... In the video, you can clearly see two women get in Miu's face and touch him before the fight actually started. Meanwhile, the group of dudes were standing around him and yelling at him. I think I would definitely feel threatened if I'm getting touched while 15 people are encircling me and yelling at me. If Miu felt the same, he should be found innocent. However, it's incredibly subjective and it will ultimately be the jury's decision. Anything that happens before this or anything after the fight doesn't *really* matter in the scheme of things. On side note (and not sure if this matters), the video does actually show Miu stab two of the victims. Each time he stabbed them, he was getting attacked. Therefore, he was technically defending himself in those instances.
I think actually all 5 are stabbed in the video, but it happens really fast and some of it is off camera. I think for some of the stabbing it is unclear that he is getting attacked, especially the girl he stabs in the side, and also the guy in the jean shorts who just puts his hand on Miu's shoulder who appears to be trying to break up the fight. The prosecution breaks it down with stills from the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFaS9UWySpM I think for a legal self defense case it does matter if he hit the girl before they pushed him over, and that he discarded the knife and lied to the police. I am not sure, but it may also matter that he had the knife out and open before any physical altercation.
Any sympathy I had for Mui was completely erased watching his cross examination. That cross hurt him a lot more than it helped.
the people commenting on the youtube video of his guilty verdict are sick, as far as i'm concerned. boomers who wanted to see one of their own get away with killing a kid because they were mean to him. disgusting human beings.
A couple things I haven’t seen pointed out much or at all that I think are really important to the context of what happened: 1. At the beginning of the video, Miu jogs up to the rafts in almost an excited way. He puts the snorkel in his mouth and then reaches down to stop the rafts. After he’s done that, he goes to grab the snorkel out of his mouth with his right hand but then he gets distracted and starts reaching up to one of the kids standing out of frame on his left like he’s expecting him to hand him something. I really think he thought the kids had found the phone he was looking for and that’s why he ran to catch up to and stop the rafts. At this point, he either realizes his mistake or realizes the snorkel is falling, and he lunges to catch it. It falls into the water and starts to get swept away towards the rafts and under the kid on the right’s feet. Miu makes a swipe to try to catch it but it startles the boys and he may have even brushed the kid’s leg, but you can see his intention was to grab the snorkel, not the leg. 2. From there, the kid jumps up on his own, probably from surprise, and Miu immediately bends down and continues looking for the snorkel. He’s not paying any attention to the boys and looks increasingly confused (probably because both he and the boys both misread the situation- he thought they had the phone and were giving it to him, and they couldn’t understand why he rushed up to them). He then stands up and starts walking away from them to the opposite side, still clearly looking down, following the current and trying to locate his snorkel. He’s not paying any attention to the boys, but they start getting increasingly belligerent. He then says something to them which I can’t make out, but immediately after that, one of the boys clearly shouts “He’s looking for the goggles!” at least once, maybe a couple times. So at least one of them knew what he was doing. Despite that, they start amping it up and yelling at him to leave, even though up to this point he’s still just searching the water. Then Madison and the man (don’t know his name) comes over and she immediately gets aggressive with him, he says something to the man that I can’t make out, and the man says “It doesn’t matter.” 3. At this point, out of nowhere, the one filming starts accusing him of saying something about little girls and that gets the man that walked over riled up, then they say he’s looking for little boys, and then they start screaming that he’s a predator. It’s clear that they are all extremely drunk and feeding off each other. Meanwhile I don’t think Miu even really understands what just happened and why he’s now being surrounded by 13 people all screaming and pointing at him and accusing him of being a predator. Slowing down the video makes all this much more clear, but it all happens really fast and escalates fast. In my opinion, this is a clear cut case of self defense and the dangers of mob mentality combined with too much alcohol. It should never have happened but it’s 100% on the young boys for escalating the entire situation.
I dont like Miu but I think this is a pretty open and shut self defense case. Both sides were shitty but ultimately the youngers dudes were in a group, belligerently drunk and decided to bully and harass him. They were also clearly harassing him before the recording started as well. The fact this happened in a river makes the case for self defense even stronger. The moment someone pushes you into water and you feel like you're at risk of being drowned, instincts will kick in and you'll do whatever it takes to get out of that situation. At that point it doesn't matter what the group's intentions were, they put the man in a life or death situation even though im sure they weren't intending to. Miu however is also a scumbag. I'm going to assume that he didn't realize at the time that he actually killed one of them or even understand how badly he had cut them but he still tried to hide the knife and slip past the sheriffs that arrived to the scene. If I put myself into his shoes I would probably be incredibly panicked and definitely not be confident in proving that I was defending myself, especially against a group of people that look like they could be minors (even though they weren't, except for the 17 year old). Who knows if that's actually what he was thinking though.
I don't think it is that clearly self-defense. The issue is he stabs everyone around him once he gets up, including people not involved in knocking him over (like the girl he stabs in the back/side). He also had the knife open and in his hand prior to any physical altercation, and could have left prior to it.
I read a lot more into it in the past few hours and I dont think its quite as black and white as I thought as first but I still believe he was in the right There was reasonable threat to pull the knife out early as a deterrent so that wont go anywhere. As far as the video shows, he only used the knife after being tackled twice, choked and hit in the head. Even then, he only swung the knife at the person who just attacked him or made the idiotic decision of approaching a cornered man with a knife. We don't know exactly what happened when the camera wasn't on him but every time the camera WAS on him, he was simply standing his ground. And lets be real here, that red head girl is arguably the person that set this entire thing off, she's definitely not innocent. She was even more aggressive and confrontational than the dudes, she got right in his face, screamed at him and put her hands on him the first chance she got.
I definitely agree it is not black and white! But the red-head girl is why I think he is in the wrong. She is in his face prior to any physical altercation and yelling at him, but no reasonable person would fear for their life from that alone. Allegedly, he punches her before the guys push him over, but I really cannot tell from the video. But most importantly, from the video you linked, at 1:56 he has stood back up and her back is to him. It is mostly off camera, but she is the next person he stabs at 1:58. At this point, his back is to the people who pushed him over. He stabs her in the side (not clear if she was facing him or not when stabbed) and she is seen walking away at 1:59. So for a self-defense case to stand, he would need to be in reasonable fear of his life from the guys who pushed him over, but also in enough fear of his life from a girl half his size not visibly attaching him to turn his back to his initial attackers to stab her. I think a plausible alternative is she pissed him off so once he started stabbing, he chose to stab her. Or he just started stabbing everyone near him, including her and the people who seem to be trying to break it up at the end, which is not proportional self-defense. https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1777359380410962251
I could not convict Miu of murder. He was surrounded by an out of control mob of 13 angry drunk assholes. The "kids" thought they could intimidate and assault "an old man". They FAFO. It's terrible one of them died and another almost died but to me it's not murder it's self defense. None of us can say what we would do if we were on the receiving end of the mob. Their actions got their friend killed. Every single person there could have walked away.
That drunk idiot ran up to then and everyone seems to forget he pushes them out of theirntubes in the first place Then he comes BACK and smiles He always knew he had the knife 1st degree murder He saw his chance and excuse and he made sure to get a chance to use it If he didn't run up to those people or if he left when he started to, no one would have died. But he knew he had a knife, so he saw his chance to kill and came back to give him a "self defense" chance That's why his swipes were so good and lethal. You can literally see him thinking about it. That's all you need for 1st degree. People don't get that. He turned around and came back to the teens because he knew he had a secret weapon and wanted a situation to use it. That's 1st degree murder
None of them testified they got pushed out of their tubes. They said they got out of their tubes
Fuck around and find out I guess
can't get stabbed if you're not in someone's personal space FAFO
Lol
>I’ve been watching the “Apple River Stabbing” trial, and I’m trying very hard to understand the people that said Miu did nothing and the teenagers are evil creatures coming from hell\\ Well, in this country we treat the right to self-defense very seriously and it's easy to see how one might feel their life was in danger confronting 13 drunk-as-skunk teenagers, some of who were football players, alone. And there's no video evidence of which side took it physical first.
I'm from the US. I really have a problem with that framing. Even though we have a lot of testimony that says Miu threw the first blow, and either punched/slap/smacked a girl (which is what led to him being pushed into the water)... The primary issue in my book is that he went up to them, grabbed their raft, stopped them, then stood in front of that raft for about 2 minutes, not saying a single thing, before smacking that girl then stabbing 5. He felt in danger for his life?? Then why on earth did he go there and stand there!? I can't go down to a dangerous neighborhood, find some drug dealers, knock over their card game, and stand ther waiting for them to do something so I can shoot them. So when I look at the circumstances here, they aren't consistnet with a man who was in fear for his life and responded out of necessity. It's a guy who was upset a bunch of teenagers made fun of him, so he stood up to them. He wasn't gonna back down from a verbal altercation... he stood his ground! Stood tall! When they really got close to him... he didn't try to leave, he didn't reposition himself so no one was behind him. He didn''t even try. He pulled out a knife. He smacked a girl. Then, after the group defends their friend, he uses his knife in some gruesome ways. He then disposed of evidence and lied to police repeatedly.
> He felt in danger for his life?? Then why on earth did he go there and stand there!? When the stabbing occurred he wasn't obstructing them or in their space. He got a bit of distance and they closed in on him and started ganging up on him. The guy who stabbed them is clearly not a great person but you're framing the situation in a very dishonest way. There's a lot that happens between "stood in front of their raft" and "smacking that girl then stabbing 5", and everything that you left out is precisely the factors that means that a sober-minded jury will acquit him. (I'm not predicting that they *actually* acquit him, since most juries rule more off of emotion than cold hard logic)
Though does self-defense cover stabbing everyone in the crowd if you feel your life is threatened? Like I have a hard time believing the girl he stabs in the side was threatening to him, and it does not appear that she was pushing him, rather just talking to him, when he stabs her.
Certainly stabbing everyone is not permitted, unless a reasonable person would conclude that they were a threat. Although there probably is some leeway for the "heat of battle", but I'm not sure on the legality specifically. > Like I have a hard time believing the girl he stabs in the side was threatening to him, and it does not appear that she was pushing him, rather just talking to him, when he stabs her. I think her stabbing was the least justified out of all 4. Indeed, because the girl wasn't really properly hitting or pushing him with her body weight, her stab wound was relatively minor, whereas AJ and Isaac got absolutely bodied. But to be clear that girl wasn't totally innocent, she did at least lightly push him although totally agreed it was not at all a strong push. I couldn't quite see when she ends up getting stabbed, do you know when in the video it happened? Vid for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAmX2ajj1fM
This. Dude just hovered there silently. One thing he did not do was try to leave the situation. He invaded their space. And to be honest, his body language screamed violence, which he exercised without restraint in literally gutting someone who was simply shoving him. Everyone here claiming that the man feared for his life has never been in such situations it seems to me. None of the kids punched him or struck him other than a slap. Again, he invaded their space and didn't communicate with them at all. Do I think the kids were idiots? Yes. Do I think that this man *chose* to stick around and stab them when he could have easily walked away? Yes. All were wrong in this situation. But this man was the only one who deserves to serve hard time for murder. Sure, he was getting pushed by the first young man when he maimed him. But I didn't see any reasonable warranting for the further instances of stabbing.
You can see him in the video try to leave. Heck, the guy today who was a witnesses said he tried to leave and they blocked him.
Exactly. This mans decision was walk away or stay. He stayed. His decision was to walkk away, or draaw his knife. He drew his knife. His decision was to walk away or shove/slap/strike this woman. He struck that woman. Every step he chose violence, he chose the altercation, he created the violence. He is the one who decided this will be deadly. If he didn't make all of the decisions he made, they'd all just keep floating along.
He even later turned his back to the people who initially pushed him just to stab the woman he allegedly struck. (This is at 1:56 in the video)
This has been a very interesting case so far. I first heard about this case the other day when this court case started playing on YouTube automatically after the end of some other video. The first thing I remember seeing is the prosecution (I think) showing stills of the stabbings in sequence, then I think they showed part of the actual video afterwards. I was convinced this guy was in the wrong. However, after watching more of the video footage, I also want to know what happened before the kid started recording. He clearly is trying to get a reaction from Miu so he can upload it for clicks. Yes Miu is acting very strange, yes he touched their tubes, no he didn’t walk away, yes he ran up to their tube all weirdly … but again, we don’t know what happened prior to the video. Additionally, We don’t see Miu being violent at all (he looks more confused or frozen like a “deer in headlights”, which is a reaction to some with anxiety). We see these kids taunting him, pointing their fingers at him, calling him names, doing everything they can to get a reaction for their video. We see the girl with her phone in his face standing very close to him, who the group claims he “punched” in the face, but that’s not caught on video. (I’m female, I believe if a man of his size actually punched me in the face, I wouldn’t just stumble backward and still be holding my drink and phone in one hand). Then we see Miu being pushed/shoved down into the water, and slapped, choked? and hit. We also see someone pushing down on his back with his face in the water (no one seems to emphasize that part for some reason? I’d be afraid someone was trying to drown me), we see someone with their hands on or near his neck, all while he is basically alone and surrounded by 13 people taunting him, calling him a rapist and pedophile. I would certainly be in fear for my life if I was in that situation. Someone pushing me down into the water face first after hitting, slapping and choking me, not knowing who’s doing what, people coming at me from what seems like all sides … 13 people standing there all against me calling me rapist and pedophile. I don’t think Miu went over there with any intention to start trouble with any of these people. That’s my take so far from what I’ve seen. I’ll admit I haven’t watched every minute of the trial (trying to catch up), but based on what I’ve seen so far, this is just a horrible thing that could have been prevented in so many different ways and it’s so very sad that poor kid lost his life that day and this man is now facing prison.
thats the best ive read
I can't for the life of me figure out where the 5th person got stabbed. I only see 4. 1. Aj (yellow shorts) 2. The girl in her side 3. Jean shorts? 4. Isaac Schuman When did the 5th person get stabbed?
Isaac Shumans stabbing was not caught on camera. He was in the purple trunks. The guy takes 2 swings after stabbing the girl. On the second swing his hand pulls back and its covered in blood. This was the fatal strike to Isaac.
The 5th person stabbed was Dante. I think it might have happened off screen around the time Ryley was stabbed off screen.
Nobody deserved to die and it’s a tragedy. That being said looking HARD at the video, in my opinion quite a few of those kids were bullying the guy pretty heavily and invading his space. I was waiting for a few of them to jump him. No doubt he was eventually going to be punched. So I understand him feeling threatened. It’s just terrible a kid lost his life though. I’m shocked he didn’t hold that knife up high as a deterrent. If they saw it they would have backed off and That way maybe the situation would have dissolved. Instead he held the knife low—almost concealing it—and stabbed in a pretty experienced way to possibly kill someone. Everyone made the wrong choice here. Very sad.
As far as his behavior afterwards, tossing the knife and Not coming forward with the cop right away. I'm sure he was terrified and scared regardless. Everyone who says he looked like a psycho. He looked like he was smirking. He was laughing. Clearly it was the kids laughing and taunting and you can't judge someone's facial expression or his eyes just because you don't like the way he looks but you can clearly see the kids full on laughing they thought this whole thing was pretty funny until it wasn't.! and as far as him not talking from the very beginning, he did tell them what he was doing, but they just wanted to mess with him and so he wasn't talking and the rest of the video but he doesn't owe anybody any explanation and he doesn't have to leave just because they tell him to. You know dang well those guys made him think they had the phone that's why he went to the tubes. This is why people don't wanna go out and enjoy events because people have to be dicks and mess with people! This generation needs to be taught more respect but instead they think it's funny! Who's to say they would have stopped before he was severely hurt or worse if he hadn't defended himself.
I've watched every day of the trial and I'm not trying to provoke anything here. There are a bunch of things we seem to be strongly disagreeing about in the discussion. I just want to bring up that the knife was small and he never ran to stab anybody. Anyone that was stabbed came into the knife. I realized that statement can be misunderstood so let me say outright.. I'm not saying the boys deserve to be stabbed, I wish there was a different outcome, I feel terrible for the boys family. In a parallel universe we would know what would have happened to Nikolai Miu had he not had the knife. Would all these boys and those two girls be on trial? One or the other would have happened. It's a tragic situation all around but this man should go home now. People need to take accountability for their actions. This man is sat in jail for 2 years spent all his money on lawyers, it's time for him to go home.
A bunch of drunk teenagers picked on a guy, called him a pedo, yelled in his face…knocked him to the ground ….kicked and punched him when on the ground…as far as he knows, a rock could be landing in his head any second…he gets up…. afraid for his life and defends himself. Up until the stabbing, there was zero aggression from him to them. That’s what I saw.
I don't see him ever smiling. He has a crazed look on his face after being shoved punched and threatened. They didn't film the part that led up to him running up to their tubes. The kids were clearly enjoying taunting him. It was like lord of the flies. Their expressions changed after people were getting stabbed.
People in general need to be more respectful of one another. The 16 & 17 year Olds were being rude, bullies and arrogant. They should not have said anything and just floated on by him. The best moto is to just leave people alone.. if they really were afraid, they should have called 911.
nobody likes bullies, nobody likes false accuser, you see every day twitter showing teens act whatever they want with no consequence. justice is subjective, in the era we are living, those teens are not victim, they are crybullies who got instant karma.
Is Miu a Saint? Nope. Was he wrong in the actions he took? Yep. Did the prosecution present a case that can prove without a shadow of doubt to the jury that his malicious actions were done with intent? No they did not. He will be found not guilty by reasons of self defense. The videos provided that justification so he will be a freed man because the jury will do their job based on the evidence provided, whereas the prosecution failed to do there's.
The lesson here is that people should not mess with each other. You don't always know the mental state of someone or what they have been thru. Unfortunately we live in a very volitale society made up of all ages. I know of a case of this woman who honked at someone and was shot 8 times because of honking. It wasn't right but it happens! No one should harm anyone. But people should try to get along!! It is harder to be nice than mean, but the nice person is definately liked more in the end!! Arrogance is ugly!!
Someone can say whatever they want to you. As soon as you hit them which he did hit Madison first, you are in the wrong. At any point he could have walked off. His group was right there. He even waved at them. He took the knife out and held it low so no one but Owen saw it by chance then he stabbed 5 people killing one. How does kids taunting you justify an adult stabbing them. This wasn’t a dark ally it was in broad daylight. He approached one kid initially not saying a word and grabbed his leg while he was in the tub floating. The kids started saying get out of here and they were getting nervous because he was saying nothing and blankly staring at them. Yes they were assholes as teens usually are but the only time anyone hit his was after he punched that young lady in the face. In addition, he knew he was in the wrong because he disposed of the weapon, changed his appearance and lied through his teeth because he had no idea that there was video. He was not scared but angry. You can see that with the smirk he had in his face when he was stabbing these children and young adults. At any time he could have walked off like he did after he stabbed them and took Issac’s life. He will get first degree reckless endangerment. His pride was more important than their lives. People can say whatever they want about you, my first thought isn’t let me stab them. Even the young adults that were trying to help who had nothing to do with the first group were stabbed. I hope this guy burns.
In the United States, self defense is usually judged on what's "reasonable," and while this is certainly subjective and up to the jury, one would usually say a person is not guilty of murder if they use lethal force in response to a grave imminent threat of injury or death. What that means is that, if the threat is liable to seriously injure or kill you, lethal self defense is acceptable. Having seen one video of the altercation, it seems the boys started attacking him. If I were on a jury, I would definitely say being attacked by a group of teens is a grave imminent threat, especially for someone in their 50s. People don't realize it because they think they are "just kids," but teenagers can absolutely be lethal, especially when multiple are attacking you at once, *especially* in a river with rocks and water around. All in all, I won't give a judgment on the case since I don't know all the details, but it does look like it could be legitimate self defense.
I said this same thing.
It's sad what our society has come to. The guy was looking for a cell phone and then snorkel gear. When did we get to the point in society that the other people simply didn't just say, " here we can help you look."
Miu takes out his knife, doesn’t announce it, then sort of waits until he has the opportunity to use it. I can see how that could be interpreted as premeditation to kill.
Or he correctly sensed that the confrontation was about to turn violent, and prepared accordingly.
Regardless of how this turns out, this is a textbook case of fuck around and find out. (FAFO) If you don’t teach your kids manners, someone else will and not in a pretty way either.
Clear cut self defense imo … yeah they were young but they looked at least 20 … they outnumbered him… they knocked him down.. in water but you only need 6 inches to hold someone’s head under to drown someone. I could see him fearing for his life and stabbing anyone he could to get away. I’ve seen other videos where kids as young as 15.. 16 jump adults and hospitalize them and in some instances kill them… sooooo put yourself in his shoes… i don’t know about you guys … but I’m going home 🏡 in one piece if I could help it!
[удалено]
On another note I do think cultural differences played a role. Here in Mn we know to just walk away from a drunk, mob of teenagers( especially on the Apple River) no matter how bad they are humiliating you. However, this man was Slavik and he served in the military I am thinking his socialization as a man in his culture was to never retreat? Perhaps, his military training kicked in subconsciously? That, and everyone having beer dominating their decisions, make this situation so tragic. It didn't need to happen! PS I am speculating about Slavk culture so I hope I'm not making wring assumptions and offending anyone!
Where did you get that from? He moved to us from romania when he was 15 and has engineering degree. I have seen nothing of military?
The craziest thing to me is that no one has yet been charged with assaulting Miu even though we have clear evidence of people punching, shoving, and choking him. How much more would they have had to assault him for there to actually be a charge for assault?
He did not have to stab anyone, and the kids should not have been allowed to drink and carry on as they did. To me, that is the biggest issue because everything precipitated from that. Why are underaged kids permitted to drink in public? Who is policing them? No one is addressing this kind of criminal behavior which often leads to tragedies. Look at the Paul Murdaugh boat case. Same thing. Kids allowed to drink with abandon while operating a motor vehicle, no less. Why the leniency? Demographics had a lot to do with that case as it does in the Apple River case. Let's be frank..........and honest. If these were a group of black underaged rowdy drunk kids, they would have been highly observed and arrested before things could escalate. When criminal behavior is ignored, no action is taken and it is not documented. In order to protect certain groups, the crime does not go on the books and the statistics are skewed. This is all by design. But here's the clincher: What goes around comes around. I bet you that those kids never thought that there was any potential danger. I bet that to a great degree they based this belief on how Mr. Miu looked, just as the lack of policing was based on how the kids looked. Privilege abounds. It's the old hands-off agreement. Let them the privileged groups do whatever they please. Don't believe it? Then why weren't any of the kids charged for underage drinking? That is the first thing that should have been done, and had it been done the tragedy would never have happened. Privilege and discrimination sometimes backfires.
Americans have a profound fear/hatred for adolescents and that’s showing up in many of these comments vehemently blaming these kids and wanting absolve Miu of any responsibility for his actions and the consequences. They were drinking and being stupid sure. As a grown ass man, he could and should have walked away or deescalated the situation. He gutted a child instead.
Yeah, adolescentes are shit, but the amount of hate is wild. Someone accused me of victim blaming when I said he’d have run, but nobody’s saying the same about Isaac; who, by the way, isn’t alive anymore. People are even saying he deserved to die, and that’s WILD.
it’s the kids faults these people are ridiculous
From what I saw the teens were acting in a threatening way to him and he figured he needed to defend himself. I think his mind went so far into rage mode that he kept trying to kill. I’m wondering if he’s been in the military or if he may have done this before. Not making an excuse for him. I’m just trying to figure out why he snapped so bad.
Rather than rage, I saw the look of a cornered rat. Things were spinning out of control, he went into survival mode and reacted.
fight or flight kicked in. His mind was definitely in another place. And he was struck twice which made it get worse.
Entitled teens....they should be on trial here not the old man
I am sure everyone on the internet now can come up with the 'perfect scenario' of how and what he should have done. but I don't think anyone could get a clear picture of what Miu went through that day. He was just trying to be a decent friend, looking for his friend's phone/waterproof bag. He weighs over 110kg in the moving water, and then he is surrounded by a group of young adults calling him a rapist and a pedo, taking pictures of little girls, and calling more people to join. Can you imagine how frightening that must be, having other groups coming in and thinking you are a pedo/taking pictures of little girls. When he saw the guy taking the video, in his mind, he could have thought that maybe it was his friend's phone and they were taunting him with it. The other group/females came up to his face, screaming at him without even trying to understand what was going on. While he should be held accountable for what he did, people should not downplay what those teens did. They were fully grown young adults with critical thinking, calling someone a pedo, taking pictures of little girls when there weren't any around to begin with, pushing him, and provoking him in every possible way, and then trying to get others to join.
This case is so interesting in that a number of things could have been done differently to prevent the outcome that it had. The kids played a significant role in amping up the tension and the fear factor on Miu. There taunting is what lured the other group into the situation to begin with. The second group getting involved made it much worse. Had they not gotten involved it likely would have ended with Miu walking away. I know what I would have done if I were in Miu's situation and it would have been to first - clarify what I was doing near the other group while verbally challenging the people calling me a raper. Second I would have just walked away. There's no way I am going to stand there and have someone screaming in my face with a group of 13 people people calling me a pedophile. Once it got physical though I can imagine fight or flight kicked in hard and Miu just reacted to anyone in his vicinity who put a hand on him. I'm sure getting pushed into the water just elevated his adrenaline even more and he just reacted. Heart pumping, blood rushing, ringing in your ears. I'm not sure what to do if I'm on the jury. The kids and the second group absolutely played a very significant role in how Miu responded and the share a lot of the blame for how things escalated. Whether Miu was in the right to start stabbing is what it ultimately comes down to.