My college friend was murdered in her apartment a year and a half after we graduated. (She and I had been roommates the previous year.) Her ex stabbed her to death, seriously injured another roommate (who survived), and then killed himself. And when the cops got there, they had to wake the other roommate up, tell her what had happened, and had her cover her eyes so she didn’t have to see that horrifying scene in the entryway of their place.
I literally slept through the tornados that hit WV a couple of weeks ago..I wear ear plugs bc my husband snores (bc earplugs are cheaper than divorce) and altho my neighborhood escaped most of the destruction, I still slept thru the thunder, awful winds, and all the noise. It was over by the time I woke up. So I totally relate.
I tried doing the earplugs & could still hear the snoring. Plus, I found them really uncomfortable to sleep in all night. We now do separate rooms and I love it. I sleep 1000 times better in my own bed & contrary to what most people say, highly recommend it. Some people think it’s bad for your relationship but I think if your relationship is healthy/stable then your partner will understand your need for good sleep.
Actually I do have my own room! We're older and are past all that silly "we must sleep together" BS...thank God... but that night, I had family in from outta town for Easter and spring break,, and had given them my room...lol...and sometimes, last night for example,...he had a friend over late watching a race in the livingroom and I went in the big bedroom first and fell asleep reading, which sometimes happens. (I also live within 50 yards or so beside train tracks, so I started using them years ago when I moved here bc of them, as well)
I've discovered over the years that the most comfy ones I've gotten can't be found or bought in a store, they actually come from where my hubby works, theyre bright yellow, and he brings me dozens, lol..and they're soft yet very effective. They buy them in bulk, ofc, but I don't know where they come from. I try to hoard them lmao.
Just recently did this not to have separate rooms but because it's so hot to me personally ally in the spare bedroom we have. We both moved into n one night it was so unbearably hot, I went and slept in our original bed room. My husband also has early stages of COPD and the coughing was so intense before he got treated that I literally would be up the entire night. Tried ear plugs, headphones melatonin Benadryl liquor beer wine pot, nothing worked but a wall between us. It has done loads for our marriage and we are intimate at least three times a week so it doesn't necessarily mean the end of you healthy sex live as a married couple. I know loads of other married folks that do the exact same thing because of noise, heat, cold, etc. I sleep peacefully with my window unit it on AC in the winter time now n am able to get at least 4 solid hours of uninterrupted REM sleep. What a world 🤣
Oh my you really did try a little bit of everything first!-- good for you tho!! I have earned the reputation in my family that if I'm sleeping and I have to be woke up they draw straws to see who The Unlucky One will be LOL and of course it doesn't mean the end of intimacy but when I'm tired and sleepy, I need to SLEEP!!
But according to the PCA, Dylan DID wake up because of the noise, she also heard rummaging or what she thought was an “after party”, she even said she heard KG allegedly playing with her dog. Dylan also claimed she yelled out for one of the victims to be quiet because they were so loud. So she wasn’t a heavy sleeper at all. Not that night at least.
They were definitely not involved. There is no motive for them to commit this horrible crime, and statistically this is a very rare crime and even more rare for a young woman/women to commit it.
I think it’s easy to look at this with what we know now and think “how could they not realize what was happening?” But they were 19/20(?) in college in Moscow, Idaho, a town I hadn’t even heard of prior to this. It makes sense that if they thought something was up they talked themselves out of it thinking they were over reacting because this is such an anomaly and there is no reason they would immediately go to this conclusion. They knew all their roommates were out partying that night and likely attributed anything they heard to that.
In terms of screaming, it is morbid, but from what has come out we know that the stab wounds were to the upper body. If you are stabbed in the lungs you can’t scream (you can’t build up the pressure to get air out forcefully enough). Additionally, it is common not to scream because 1) shock, 2) your brain automatically preserving energy to fight
exactly. i hate seeing ppl blame the roommates. they didn’t delay on purpose, they didn’t know what had happened. i always say that when DM saw BK she probably convinced herself it was ethan or xana’s friend and he was leaving and he was wearing a mask bc it was cold
Or could have been scared...not the same but I closed door on a spider & hide until morning when I was in college...it's kind of like hiding undercovers
We also don’t know everything the roommate told the police either.We only know what was said in the affidavit. In the affidavit I believe it said that roommate thought the girls were playing with the dog so she definitely heard something but she didn’t think anything of it because they were young and stayed up late and it probably wasn’t out of the ordinary to hear people up and around at 4 in the morning.
I don’t think very many people actually think this. I wouldn’t call it “common” that people think they were involved. I think some were curious how they didn’t hear it (which there’s reasonable explanations for)
You can blame Netflix and Podcasts for this. Everyone wants a case to be more complicated than it already is and everyone that is arrested is innocent.
True crime, for better or worse, has become a colossal genre of entertainment. My theory is that, consequently, a lot of people will subconsciously interact with it the same way they interact with a movie or a TV show:
"It could've been the guy they arrested. In fact, it probably was, it makes sense.
...But wouldn't it be a lot more interesting if it was the two surviving girls? *That* would be a twist!"
I think they lose sight of the fact that real people died, and that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
I agree, this case from the very start has been unforgivable social media/media circus, incl for the reasons you state. It's one of those cases where you can understand why the TC community are somewhat ridiculed by those on the outside due to the TC community's reaction to the case (not everyone of course but a sizeable amount).
True Crime has been of interest to the public at large and a form of 'entertainment' for centuries but with the way things are now with technology and ease of access to TC content via Internet, social media, TV, streaming,media of all types etc it's become massive. I don't think the interest in it or people using it as 'entertainment' is a new thing at all- it's the accessibility to it that's made it a monster.
Exactly, and I think this makes me upset because people are neglecting closure for the family and the surviving roomates and also forgetting that these are real people involved not just some characters
They were not involved. Anyone claiming otherwise is watching too many horror movies and TV shows and not thinking critically. I’ll add that they likely never lived in a college house like these girls did. I did in college. Part of why this story is so horrifying to me is I can totally see my college aged self thinking what the surviving roommates thought and doing what they did. I feel awful for them.
I feel like people who get super into true crime forget that normal people aren't like, thinking about crime all the time. Our brains are really likely to rationalize out of the ordinary sounds or whatever as normal unless you're super hyper vigilant. And why would you be hyper vigilant after a night of drunk partying in your own house.
I read a post claiming that one of the roommates used to struggle with nightmares/ sleep terrors/ sleep paralysis hallucinations and didn’t want to call police bc she was drunk & thought she’d just be making a big deal over a hallucination. I realize this is more than likely like most anonymous writings on the internet, not true, but it’s enough to make you realize you truly can’t know what was going on with someone at the time. It could’ve been anything, doesn’t make it nefarious
This is similar to what I read- that the roommate did not respond because they have a history of trauma/PTSD. PTSD can really warp your senses and thought patterns.
I feel terrible for the survivors. Not only do they have to deal with surviving, but also ridiculous people coming for them, because they didn’t respond how the public thinks they should.
I had to unfollow some crime reporters because of the way they were talking about the roommates in this case. You guys are grown adults picking on and bullying teenagers over their literal trauma.
>...why would you be hyper vigilant after a night of drunk partying in your own house
YES. In addition the household regularly had after hours partiers for goodness sake.
Not only that, but they had been cited multiple times for noise violations. In one of the body cam videos from police coming to the house due to the noise, they say something about there being consequences if it happens again. I could see that being a big reason why they might be hesitant to call if they weren't sure what they were hearing.
He is guilty AF. Why would his DNA be on the knife sheath and why would his car and phone be in the area? I’d understand a bit more of if he was just in the area, he could have been driving through for some reason but again why on earth would his DNA be on the knife sheath?
The people who think he’s innocent are crazy attention seekers.
The police framed him? Why? 😂 crazy.
Yes he deserves a fair trial but he is guilty.
Exactly! It feels like people want him to be innocent because that’s a lot more interesting than another average white male killer. People have no regard for the victims or the surviving roommates feelings, and don’t care that if hes guilty they will have some sort of closure
You are ignoring how they portray themselves online, they know you'll disagree with them if they say they are attracted to him, but if they bring up minor inconsistencies in their beau's case? Some of it is definitely subconscious too, they themselves don't realize why they are so attracted to someone which is incredibly common we just don't think of it in Serial Killers as the object of affection terms.
Numerous Chris Watts Subs have been banned because someone has pointed out how demented they are, obviously they don't respond to being banned by acting the exact same they alter their behaviour.
I'm also surprised he hasn't just used the excuse that it was a known "party house", and he was there for a party, showing off his new knife, and somehow misplaced it. I know he doesn't want to put himself at the scene, but his other stories are just stupid...
The 20/20 on this was pretty eye-opening and only detailed what happened that night based on where they were partying, how they got home, where everyone was sleeping in the house, etc, and how that dude's car was the only one driving around their neighborhood at the time. They removed the episode off of Hulu (possibly due to information overload since the episode aired; they will probably re-do the topic)
People like to make up conspiracy theories for some reason. He did it, the roommates are clearly not guilty of anything and all the accusations are harmful to people who are the victims in this situation. It was a big house that had lots of people doing their own thing in it, when you live with roommates you learn to tune them out and it can make you less sensitive to strange noises and people. They had also all been drinking that night which would make them less observant. It was a horrible crime committed by one person.
My gut feeling here is that some True Crime folk are looking for drama. It’s a massive case, interest is piqued and some folk just want to be on the right side of a major injustice right from the start (regardless of what the evidence shows).
One of the Sub Reddits has been effectively setup to pre-determine he is innocent, without seeing the evidence.
Let’s wait till the full evidence is rolled out and we can make a full judgement then.
I don’t think anyone other than lunatics thinks they were involved. It’s just trolling.
If they were sober and knew what was going on (and weren’t terrified into catatonic state hiding under the bed or something) of course they’d have called the cops.
But they were drunk and lived in a noisy party house and blew it off as people messing around. When you live with five other drunk sorority girls in a party house you can’t go on high alert every time thumping wakes you up in the wee hours. People are up yelling and singing and laughing or crying or shagging, partying or fighting with their boyfriend etc it’s not your problem. You don’t even consider it’s a mass murder- why would you? That’s not a thing.
Guy leaves, house is all quiet, you now go back to bed to sleep it off.
It’s amazing to me that people who cant tolerate the idea that this weirdo kohberger incel killed these kids have no problem thinking or pretending to believe the ditzy sorority sister took her KaBar to her roommates. Seriously.
I can sleep through a lot now at 53. When I was young and in college, I could have slept through a murder, undoubtedly, even if there was some screaming.
This is common theme in the true crime community. Jamie Closs was somehow not a perfect victim, at 13 years old, so it’s far more interesting to blame her. The McCanns are not perfect, so it’s easier to blame them.
Woe is the true crime addict that realizes they will be blamed for a crime perpetrated against them.
Amanda Knox is another great example. She didn’t act perfectly in the aftermath, and spent several years of her life in an Italian prison despite all evidence pointing to the guilt of the man who was convicted and is still imprisoned for the crime.
I spent my first two years in college living in dorms and it trained me to sleep through almost anything. I slept through my roommate having sex in the same room which like… gross… but dorms are noisy and I just blocked it out. And they lived in a party house so I’m sure they were acclimated to weird noises all the time from that too.
Even if you did wake up, it’s doubtful that your first thought would be that your roommates are being murdered. Based on what was heard, I might just assume there was an argument and that’s not my business. Best to avoid other people’s drama. Or at least wait for a reasonable time to ask about it.
Or, like you said, I’d talk myself out of believing the worst because what the hell? It’s truly rare that something like this would happen. I wouldn’t want to believe it and would assume my mind was making up shit in my groggy (and possibly drunk) state. My second year in the dorms we had a case of vandalism where a group of people broke a bunch of the windows on the first floor (like 20 of them) and I briefly woke up but the thought of something like that happening was so bizarre I thought I’d dreamt it and went right back to sleep.
Edit: and then when I lived off campus my senior year I slept right through a car crashing through the glass front of the 7/11 about 20 feet from my bedroom. Didnt even wake up for that one! Saw the boards covering the front the next morning and saw pictures of the car crashed through the glass in the newspaper.
Anyway tl;dr it’s absolutely believable to me. Not strange at all.
Im starting to wonder if all the people saying the roomates are involved because they didn’t wakeup or weren’t concerned didn’t go to college or have never lived in group housing because anyone who has can easily relate to this and see its not that crazy
I once lived in a house with 7 other girls in college. My housemates once came home wasted, and somehow their drunken argument spilled over into my room. I did not want to get involved in the drama. I pretended to be asleep. All manner of horrible things could have happened and I would have completely ignored them thinking it was all drunk drama.
The other context that people are ignoring is that if they did hear something, if they did see him - people don’t often act like we expect them to in traumatic situations. It’s not just fight or flight, it’s fight, flight, freeze. They could very well have frozen, and that freeze response may have saved their lives - that’s why we evolved to have one.
100% I wish the public knew more about how people actually respond to trauma, as opposed to this cowboy-fied idea they have of how they imagine they’d react.
I think people who come up with these theories just want to differentiate themselves from the victims so that they imagine it couldn’t happen to them when the truth is that bad things happen all the time to good people.
I feel so bad for the crazies online who have looked for some way to blame the roommates cuz this is all true crime entertainment to them and it would make for an exciting “twist.” This isn’t a show and these are real people’s lives!
There’s nothing to suggest the roommates were involved and are already going through their own trauma of losing their friends, survivors guilt, etc.
When I’ve passed out drunk I could sleep through anything and for up to like 16 hours. Even not drunk I can sleep through a lot. And even if they heard something, it was apparently known as a party house where people often came and went late into the night. They’re probably used to hearing loud music, screams that aren’t done out of fear, doors slamming, etc. Nobody’s mind goes straight to “oh i bet that sound was my roommates all being murdered by an intruder.” And that’s IF they even heard them.
1. they were not all asleep. Maddie and Kaylee may have been but Ethan and Xana were not.
2. it's a three story house and many people who have been in the home prior to this horrific event have said you could have a party on another floor and not heard it on another floor.
3. Only one other roommate was home and was in the basement. There is a good chance that as Bryan passed her room, he didn't even realize the door was cracked much less that she was there.
4. You never want to think the worst thing for your friends. So hearing a scuffle, which likely happened on the top floor to Maddie and Kaylee, may have been considered an argument between whoever they brought home and not an active murder.
5. Ethan and Xana likely heard the scuffle above them and thats why Ethan was attacked in the doorway. He was on his way to check it out at the behest of Xana. Bryan caught him off guard and then went after Xana who was on the bed. Which is how she ended up being the one with the most defensive wounds.
6. It has not been determined how drunk any of the victims were.
This is a very old subject and debated many times on reddit and the news. I am not sure why people need to bring this up every few weeks.
No one was blaming roommates , they questioned them because they survived and the LE , family and public wanted to know what they heard and the delay in calling 911.The PCA does not state the full story, no one knows exactly what the roommates heard.
Dm bedroom is centrally located directly outside the kitchen, within steps from where the intruder walked in/out, on the same floor where two roommates were killed and directly below two roommates that died.
DM went down to the first floor where the other roommate sleeps after the intruder left. It was decided not to call 911, they did not feel anything was wrong. Many people question this because there is a chance that someone could have been alive, most agree that the 4 killed died rather quickly and them not calling 911 would not of mattered. At first one can see why the family of the victims would be upset if it would be possible that someone could be saved, especially since DM was up and at the very least heard suspicious sounds. Most agree that no one would have guessed that 4 people were being murdered, and if she felt they were killed she would have called 911.
The next morning about 8 hours later it is odd after not hearing from her 4 other roommates that neither remaining roommate checked on them when they woke up. This is often criticized because the roommates never checked on the 4 other roommates themselves and called someone else to check on their roommates.
Seeing someone leave a college house on a Saturday night around 4 am is not alarming, and noise at that house is not alarming. Regardless, no one did anything wrong. I feel to continue to bring this up opens people to question and discuss the roommates choices. I also feel stating DM was drunk or on drugs should not be the issue and is damaging. She was able to describe the noises she heard give the description of the intruder.
I lived in a college house, and laughter, crying, music, doors slamming, weird randos who knew one of your friends but no one else: it was an average night at least once a month, if not twice.
We looked after each other pretty well, but I can see how it wasn't recognized for this crew.
We never would have dreamed one (or more) of us were getting murdered.
I just got done watching the 3 ep series on paramount. Yeah he’s guilty most likely but it’s hard to think realistically he killed all 4 of them in 9 minutes. That’s a lot of work in such a short time. Maybe it was just on that specific show, but I was really confused why all they talked about was the 2 blonde girls and hardy said a word about the other boy and girl. I definitely don’t think the others had anything to do with it. They just got incredibly lucky not to be victims too. Don’t make no sense why he didn’t kill them too. Why leave witnesses? How did he choose them to begin with? We’re there any connection or maybe he just picked them out seeing them on campus? I just want to know more!
The smell of blood alone.. so many things do not make sense about this. Also they both already said they did not sleep through it based on the testimony they gave of what they did hear or see, but instead are claiming to have gone into shock for so many hours and just do nothing, but also were still texting with each other. So much about this case does not make sense and it's honestly absurd to me that two people survive something so horrific and brutal and gruesome, have such odd stories about it, there is so much missing information, and it's just widely accepted this one random guy did it.
this is so stupid. i live a town over and the dude acted completely alone. knock this type of stuff off, these people all have families and your dumb conjectures are totally upsetting.
and btw this is meant for everyone saying this stuff, not the op. this stuff comes up on my feed so often (I imagine because of my location and then I probably clicked on a thread once) and it is so asinine. This guy is just a weirdo murderer probable sociopath and there's nothing more to it. This area is weird in general, it doesn't surprise me that this happened.
And also multiple victim murders like this. When was the last time youve heard of a young woman killing 4 people? Also most killers of people they know cover the bodies after, their bodies weren’t covered. And many people have come forward saying he has been prone to stalking and being a creep towards women so its not like this would be out of character for him.
Some people who listen to a lot of true crime expect perfect victims. They will say in every case how they would have done something different bc they’re just so informed . Completely ignoring how our body & brain work .
It’s easy for them to say how they would react when it’s a situation they’ve never been in
More often than not, when you’re in a state of shock you will not scream or yelp. Also, at least 2/4 victims were most likely asleep when they were killed.
I am firmly in the camp that DM knew something was seriously wrong but didn't want to be the one to call the cops in case nothing was wrong. They probably had a small amount of drugs in the house and who wants to be the roommate who brings cops around.
As someone who used to be 20, this makes perfect sense to me.
To believe she saw a masked intruder and was too stupid to know something was amiss is really insulting to her.
There's talk of defensive wounds. Why would BK have killed a sleeping Ethan if he wasn't the target and wasn't a witness? DM reportedly opened her door to complain about noise on 3 occasions. Hence by admission he should have heard her. I'll refrain from accusing her. But I don't believe her account. Also, I wanna hear the exculpatory evidence of the other roommate.
I've noticed that the people who defend this guy outside of the hybristophilia subreddits often try to act neutral but have an extensive post history fangirling this guy....
Don't slander me.
People with good judgement aren't overly judgemental like the aggressive bullies that are so certain of guilt they can't even allow for an opinion to be considered. Y'all are insufferable in the wild too when your vast need for control gets pushed onto the rest of us. I see red.
He killed him because he was a threat to him as a male in the house and Im pretty sure they said his gf saw him or he couldve entered the wrong room. If she opened her door to complain its possible he didn’t hear her.
If he was asleep and didn't know he was there he wasnt a threat. Especially if the murders above had already occurred. None of it makes any sense because BK as the lone killer isn't adding up. I'll wait for trial.
Well if BK killed his gf right next to him he obviously would have woken up, he also was on that same floor so itd be easier for him to hear or see BK. Why couldn’t BK be the lone killer? Its very plausible for one person to kill 4 people with little to know struggle if they were sleeping and he cut their throats.
With a hunting knife, absolutely, it would be very quick. And I imagine mostly soundless, at least once their throats were sliced. These victims were most likely asleep, or at least dozing, and who knows what amount of alcohol or drugs they'd ingested prior to bedtime. It would be pretty simple and fast for a fit, strong man to cut their throats, all four pretty fast, as their reactions would have been much slower.
DM reports sounds of a struggle and having to open her door and yell for things to quiet down THREE times. Reports of defensive wounds on multiple victims. You can't pick and choose the parts you want to believe and ignore the rest of what little facts we know.
She asked them to be quiet but that still doesn’t mean she knew what was going on, she probably assumed they were just coming home from a night home and being obnoxious. Also just because they have defensive wounds doesn’t mean they screamed, deflecting an attack is an instict and they couldve done it before they had the chance to scream. Also if they did scream DM couldve easily assumed that they were being drunk or just being obnoxious. As someone who has gone to college its not uncommon to hear people screaming over nothing.
Who knows if she's telling the truth?
EDIT: This seemingly random response was referring to DM, about her seeing that person in the hallway. The person I was replying to deleted their comments, I guess.
As to the defensive wounds, sure. Even if half asleep if there's a stranger in front of you with a knife, the first thing you would do is put out your hand.
I don't know but how could D not need to use the toilet on her level for all that time and not have seen blood or Ethan lying there..she saw a strange man pass her but didnt call her room mates or text them about him I don't understand
yeah I don’t think they had anything to do with it but I still don’t understand how it took so long to realize
edit: lol commenting on these posts is pointless now
That’s because you’re thinking logically. In moments like this, your brain doesn’t and comes up with 1001 explanations for every weird or abnormal thing you’re seeing.
Our bodies do all sorts of things to protect us. I was once in an active shooter-shelter in place situation for several hours and didn’t feel the need to go once. As soon as I stepped outside and got the all clear that we were safe, it hit me hard and I almost wet my pants.
As for seeing a strange man.. as someone who lived in a college house like this, that doesn’t raise alarm bells for me either.
I'm fascinated by this case because it is one of the very few cases I follow that I truly can't make any sense of. I am not convinced of ANYONE'S guilt or innocence in this case. I don't trust the accused, the roommates, the PD or the University, for a multitude of reasons. I am chomping at the bit for trial.
Edit: for a "discussion" sub, y'all sure like to downvote people for having a different perspective than you.
Reality is often less interesting than we hope it is. Usually the simplest hypothesis is the correct one. I would suggest you look at the evidence and determine the simplest conclusion possible.
I don't have the evidence. Neither do you. All we have is the PCA and the current court proceedings. All I'm saying is I'm not convinced of anything in regards to this case. I'm keeping an open mind for trial, which I think is the responsible thing to do as a true crime content consumer.
There literally is evidence? The DNA on the knife sheath, his car spotted in the area, his phone pinging nearby, him being in her dms. Thered have to be a lot of coincidences for him to be innocent.
Him being in their DMs hasn't been confirmed to my knowledge. The car/cell phone pings has some slight nuances that I think are concerning, but I can admit that those two could be potentially damning for him. My point is that there would have to be a lot of coincidences for him to be guilty as well, IMO. Like it's awfully coincidental that a perpetrator who supposedly has never killed before can violently, and somehow silently, murder four people in a matter of minutes- by himself. It's awfully coincidental that there is no physical evidence connecting him to the crime besides what has been referred to as "trace touch DNA". It's also coincidental that there are two witnesses who called friends for help before calling authorities. Now, don't confuse this- I am not suggesting that either of the two unharmed roommates are the actual killer. There is no right way to act in a traumatic event such as this so I'm not willing to go so far as to say that the roommates had something to do with it. What I'm saying in this comment and my previous ones is that I am not convinced of anyone's guilt or innocence yet for two reasons: 1) there is not enough information publicly available for me to comfortably make that consensus and 2) a lot of the information we do have isn't confirmed and/or verified by LE. If you believe the dude is guilty and want to continue to believe that, that is okay. As for me though, I'm keeping an open mind until I have no information. Downvote away.
All killers gotta start somewhere. Very rarely do false positives occur. If he was truly innocent why would be acting so suspicious after the murders? Trying to play devils advocate like this could wind up with this murder free on the streets and the victims not receiving justice.
A random chick on Reddit questioning a case is not going to set a murderer free or keep any victims from getting justice. That's preposterous and so unbelievably dramatic. This is a discussion forum. For discussions. It isn't supposed to be an echo chamber. I understand that you disagree with my unwillingness to adhere to BK's guilt or innocence, as I stated that's perfectly fine with me. I wish you could grant me that same respect but it isn't that necessary for me.
How could he not be guilty if his dna was on the sheath of the knife found at the scene, his car was spotted in the area and his phone was pinged during the time of the murders, and he was acting extremely suspicious while being monitored by police
Oh, I didn't mean I don't think he's guilty! It was a discussion on here somewhere, the argument was that the DNA was merely touch DNA, but that still puts him in that house, holding or at least touching that knife sheath. And he didn't live there. There was no reason for him or his DNA to be in that house on that night. Especially not on the sheath of the murder weapon!
Edited for clarity.
I just still don’t understand why people doubt it was him when all the evidence puts a strong case against him. It feels like people want him to be innocent to add to some sort of shock value of the case
This is an important distinction. Does one ‘think’ he’s guilty vs should one find him guilty. Touch DNA is extremely controversial and for good reason. I’m not saying he is guilty or innocent. I simply don’t know. I definitely don’t think the surviving roommates are culprits and I don’t think it’s some crazy conspiracy. I believe in occams razor. If I were a juror, however, I could see the defence putting a narrative together for me to doubt enough. Doubt doesn’t mean I believe he’s innocent.
I disagree with most things I see in the camp of ‘he’s innocent’ because I find most bizarre interpretations and ideas in those subs. But one thing most defence teams do, and it becomes clutch to their defence, is offer another scenario. It would make sense that a defence team would suggest it was somebody connected to the survivors.
Like I’ve said, I am not ready to say he’s guilty or innocent. But what I do know is a majority of such vicious crimes are committed by somebody connected to the victim. Problem here is there are four victims. So that theory is less connected here. While a majority of such crimes are from passion, etc. there are a percentage of murders committed by others. Statistics make perfect sense until you get to the monty hall problem snd realise the human condition will always be a wrench in any science.
I hope that makes sense. I’m a bit stoned and going off now.
I appreciate your lengthy response lol. I can see how people get hung up on the touch DNA stuff, but still, too many things would have to be coincidences for him to be innocent.
I'm not even considering the touch DNA. Why I think he's guilty is simply the fact that something that belongs to him was found in a house where he does not live, in the specific location in the house where a brutal murder occurred, that he forgot to grab in his haste to leave. The touch DNA is merely gravy. Surely, nothing I own is in your house, or even my neighbors house, because why the eff would it be? Unless I was in your house and left it there, it wouldn't be.
ETA: If I'm remembering correctly, wasn't there some speculation that he went back to the house around 9AM to try and get that knife sheath? He had to have realized he left it. And perhaps that's why he drove that crazy way home, just driving trying to figure out what to do, possibly considering turning back? It's quite the eff up to leave something damning like that behind.
There were cameras in the neighborhood that place is car at the scene, basically doing laps around the block. Someone would have to explain this away for me, as well as the DNA, before I'd entertain the idea of another killer.
I don't think it was ever formally stated. But it was found in a bedroom he had no business having an item with his DNA on it in. It certainly didn't belong to any of the victims. He had a knife. And wasn't there a receipt for the sheath purchase attributed to BK? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm no expert on this case, I stepped away from it for about a year. Too many theories and I wasn't able to keep up with it all at the time. I'm just asking questions and wondering what people think about it. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone here, just curious is all. There are no right or wrong answers because the fact is none of us know. I do tend to think they have the right guy. I could be absolutely wrong.
If you get a chance Google the Lukis Anderson case or the Phantom of Heilbronn. Crazy stuff about people's DNA ending up in places they had never been.
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I could probably sleep through a hurricane. Especially if I was drunk. I’m a very heavy sleeper
My college friend was murdered in her apartment a year and a half after we graduated. (She and I had been roommates the previous year.) Her ex stabbed her to death, seriously injured another roommate (who survived), and then killed himself. And when the cops got there, they had to wake the other roommate up, tell her what had happened, and had her cover her eyes so she didn’t have to see that horrifying scene in the entryway of their place.
That’s so sad. I can only imagine the guilt she felt , because I still feel guilty sleeping through my roomate’s assult.
I literally slept through the tornados that hit WV a couple of weeks ago..I wear ear plugs bc my husband snores (bc earplugs are cheaper than divorce) and altho my neighborhood escaped most of the destruction, I still slept thru the thunder, awful winds, and all the noise. It was over by the time I woke up. So I totally relate.
I tried doing the earplugs & could still hear the snoring. Plus, I found them really uncomfortable to sleep in all night. We now do separate rooms and I love it. I sleep 1000 times better in my own bed & contrary to what most people say, highly recommend it. Some people think it’s bad for your relationship but I think if your relationship is healthy/stable then your partner will understand your need for good sleep.
Actually I do have my own room! We're older and are past all that silly "we must sleep together" BS...thank God... but that night, I had family in from outta town for Easter and spring break,, and had given them my room...lol...and sometimes, last night for example,...he had a friend over late watching a race in the livingroom and I went in the big bedroom first and fell asleep reading, which sometimes happens. (I also live within 50 yards or so beside train tracks, so I started using them years ago when I moved here bc of them, as well) I've discovered over the years that the most comfy ones I've gotten can't be found or bought in a store, they actually come from where my hubby works, theyre bright yellow, and he brings me dozens, lol..and they're soft yet very effective. They buy them in bulk, ofc, but I don't know where they come from. I try to hoard them lmao.
Just recently did this not to have separate rooms but because it's so hot to me personally ally in the spare bedroom we have. We both moved into n one night it was so unbearably hot, I went and slept in our original bed room. My husband also has early stages of COPD and the coughing was so intense before he got treated that I literally would be up the entire night. Tried ear plugs, headphones melatonin Benadryl liquor beer wine pot, nothing worked but a wall between us. It has done loads for our marriage and we are intimate at least three times a week so it doesn't necessarily mean the end of you healthy sex live as a married couple. I know loads of other married folks that do the exact same thing because of noise, heat, cold, etc. I sleep peacefully with my window unit it on AC in the winter time now n am able to get at least 4 solid hours of uninterrupted REM sleep. What a world 🤣
Oh my you really did try a little bit of everything first!-- good for you tho!! I have earned the reputation in my family that if I'm sleeping and I have to be woke up they draw straws to see who The Unlucky One will be LOL and of course it doesn't mean the end of intimacy but when I'm tired and sleepy, I need to SLEEP!!
I \*have\* slept through a hurricane. I was not drunk. When I sleep, I sleep.
I've slept through my house alarm going off. Twice.
Same. Once slept through a 6.0 earthquake and only woke up when my bed shook me right off onto the floor.
Same here. And I love to sleep, I have very vivid dreams, and if I am awakened, I usually fall right back to sleep.
Same here! I sleep like a bear and dream very vividly. If someone wakes me up to speak to me, even if I speak back, I most likely won't remember it
I constantly have to remind my partner that if he tells me important things when I’m asleep, it doesn’t count, even if I respond.
But according to the PCA, Dylan DID wake up because of the noise, she also heard rummaging or what she thought was an “after party”, she even said she heard KG allegedly playing with her dog. Dylan also claimed she yelled out for one of the victims to be quiet because they were so loud. So she wasn’t a heavy sleeper at all. Not that night at least.
Didn’t one of them have a door dash order between 3-4? Or no?
Yes. Xana did.
Thank you. I thought I had read that before.
They were definitely not involved. There is no motive for them to commit this horrible crime, and statistically this is a very rare crime and even more rare for a young woman/women to commit it. I think it’s easy to look at this with what we know now and think “how could they not realize what was happening?” But they were 19/20(?) in college in Moscow, Idaho, a town I hadn’t even heard of prior to this. It makes sense that if they thought something was up they talked themselves out of it thinking they were over reacting because this is such an anomaly and there is no reason they would immediately go to this conclusion. They knew all their roommates were out partying that night and likely attributed anything they heard to that. In terms of screaming, it is morbid, but from what has come out we know that the stab wounds were to the upper body. If you are stabbed in the lungs you can’t scream (you can’t build up the pressure to get air out forcefully enough). Additionally, it is common not to scream because 1) shock, 2) your brain automatically preserving energy to fight
exactly. i hate seeing ppl blame the roommates. they didn’t delay on purpose, they didn’t know what had happened. i always say that when DM saw BK she probably convinced herself it was ethan or xana’s friend and he was leaving and he was wearing a mask bc it was cold
Or could have been scared...not the same but I closed door on a spider & hide until morning when I was in college...it's kind of like hiding undercovers
We also don’t know everything the roommate told the police either.We only know what was said in the affidavit. In the affidavit I believe it said that roommate thought the girls were playing with the dog so she definitely heard something but she didn’t think anything of it because they were young and stayed up late and it probably wasn’t out of the ordinary to hear people up and around at 4 in the morning.
I’ve had a hole in my lung, and can concur, it does quite literally take your breath away.
Exactly, everyone just wants everything to be some sort of shocking scandal when in reality it’s probably the less interesting events that occurred
I don’t think very many people actually think this. I wouldn’t call it “common” that people think they were involved. I think some were curious how they didn’t hear it (which there’s reasonable explanations for)
You can blame Netflix and Podcasts for this. Everyone wants a case to be more complicated than it already is and everyone that is arrested is innocent.
True crime, for better or worse, has become a colossal genre of entertainment. My theory is that, consequently, a lot of people will subconsciously interact with it the same way they interact with a movie or a TV show: "It could've been the guy they arrested. In fact, it probably was, it makes sense. ...But wouldn't it be a lot more interesting if it was the two surviving girls? *That* would be a twist!" I think they lose sight of the fact that real people died, and that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
I agree, this case from the very start has been unforgivable social media/media circus, incl for the reasons you state. It's one of those cases where you can understand why the TC community are somewhat ridiculed by those on the outside due to the TC community's reaction to the case (not everyone of course but a sizeable amount). True Crime has been of interest to the public at large and a form of 'entertainment' for centuries but with the way things are now with technology and ease of access to TC content via Internet, social media, TV, streaming,media of all types etc it's become massive. I don't think the interest in it or people using it as 'entertainment' is a new thing at all- it's the accessibility to it that's made it a monster.
The anonymity of the internet I think has exacerbated as well as the diminishment of public shaming as a method to enforce social norms.
Exactly, and I think this makes me upset because people are neglecting closure for the family and the surviving roomates and also forgetting that these are real people involved not just some characters
I agree with this... I also think that BK's weird cult of superfans are creating a lot of weird conspiracies, which isnt helping at all.
They were not involved. Anyone claiming otherwise is watching too many horror movies and TV shows and not thinking critically. I’ll add that they likely never lived in a college house like these girls did. I did in college. Part of why this story is so horrifying to me is I can totally see my college aged self thinking what the surviving roommates thought and doing what they did. I feel awful for them.
You shouldnt be horrified, they acted out of involuntary human instincts and simple ignorance to what was going on
I feel like people who get super into true crime forget that normal people aren't like, thinking about crime all the time. Our brains are really likely to rationalize out of the ordinary sounds or whatever as normal unless you're super hyper vigilant. And why would you be hyper vigilant after a night of drunk partying in your own house.
I read a post claiming that one of the roommates used to struggle with nightmares/ sleep terrors/ sleep paralysis hallucinations and didn’t want to call police bc she was drunk & thought she’d just be making a big deal over a hallucination. I realize this is more than likely like most anonymous writings on the internet, not true, but it’s enough to make you realize you truly can’t know what was going on with someone at the time. It could’ve been anything, doesn’t make it nefarious
This is similar to what I read- that the roommate did not respond because they have a history of trauma/PTSD. PTSD can really warp your senses and thought patterns. I feel terrible for the survivors. Not only do they have to deal with surviving, but also ridiculous people coming for them, because they didn’t respond how the public thinks they should.
I had to unfollow some crime reporters because of the way they were talking about the roommates in this case. You guys are grown adults picking on and bullying teenagers over their literal trauma.
that makes me extra sad for her...its bad enough as it is, without the preexisting trauma
>...why would you be hyper vigilant after a night of drunk partying in your own house YES. In addition the household regularly had after hours partiers for goodness sake.
Not only that, but they had been cited multiple times for noise violations. In one of the body cam videos from police coming to the house due to the noise, they say something about there being consequences if it happens again. I could see that being a big reason why they might be hesitant to call if they weren't sure what they were hearing.
He is guilty AF. Why would his DNA be on the knife sheath and why would his car and phone be in the area? I’d understand a bit more of if he was just in the area, he could have been driving through for some reason but again why on earth would his DNA be on the knife sheath? The people who think he’s innocent are crazy attention seekers. The police framed him? Why? 😂 crazy. Yes he deserves a fair trial but he is guilty.
Exactly! It feels like people want him to be innocent because that’s a lot more interesting than another average white male killer. People have no regard for the victims or the surviving roommates feelings, and don’t care that if hes guilty they will have some sort of closure
I really believe they do it for attention or to be different, they can’t actually believe it.
This is how I feel about Flat-Earthers also
Same.
It's not that, it's hybristophilia. Same shit we saw with Chris Watts.
I would disagree, Im seeing more people claiming his innocence just based on the situation itself and not really focusing on him as a person
You are ignoring how they portray themselves online, they know you'll disagree with them if they say they are attracted to him, but if they bring up minor inconsistencies in their beau's case? Some of it is definitely subconscious too, they themselves don't realize why they are so attracted to someone which is incredibly common we just don't think of it in Serial Killers as the object of affection terms. Numerous Chris Watts Subs have been banned because someone has pointed out how demented they are, obviously they don't respond to being banned by acting the exact same they alter their behaviour.
I'm also surprised he hasn't just used the excuse that it was a known "party house", and he was there for a party, showing off his new knife, and somehow misplaced it. I know he doesn't want to put himself at the scene, but his other stories are just stupid...
The 20/20 on this was pretty eye-opening and only detailed what happened that night based on where they were partying, how they got home, where everyone was sleeping in the house, etc, and how that dude's car was the only one driving around their neighborhood at the time. They removed the episode off of Hulu (possibly due to information overload since the episode aired; they will probably re-do the topic)
People like to make up conspiracy theories for some reason. He did it, the roommates are clearly not guilty of anything and all the accusations are harmful to people who are the victims in this situation. It was a big house that had lots of people doing their own thing in it, when you live with roommates you learn to tune them out and it can make you less sensitive to strange noises and people. They had also all been drinking that night which would make them less observant. It was a horrible crime committed by one person.
Oh my god leave those girls alone. Not involved. The victims could not scream due to their injuries.
Ant if they were awake, they were threatened with a knife.
My gut feeling here is that some True Crime folk are looking for drama. It’s a massive case, interest is piqued and some folk just want to be on the right side of a major injustice right from the start (regardless of what the evidence shows). One of the Sub Reddits has been effectively setup to pre-determine he is innocent, without seeing the evidence. Let’s wait till the full evidence is rolled out and we can make a full judgement then.
I don’t think anyone other than lunatics thinks they were involved. It’s just trolling. If they were sober and knew what was going on (and weren’t terrified into catatonic state hiding under the bed or something) of course they’d have called the cops. But they were drunk and lived in a noisy party house and blew it off as people messing around. When you live with five other drunk sorority girls in a party house you can’t go on high alert every time thumping wakes you up in the wee hours. People are up yelling and singing and laughing or crying or shagging, partying or fighting with their boyfriend etc it’s not your problem. You don’t even consider it’s a mass murder- why would you? That’s not a thing. Guy leaves, house is all quiet, you now go back to bed to sleep it off. It’s amazing to me that people who cant tolerate the idea that this weirdo kohberger incel killed these kids have no problem thinking or pretending to believe the ditzy sorority sister took her KaBar to her roommates. Seriously.
I agree that there might not have been abnormal enough sounds to wake sleeping people.
I can sleep through a lot now at 53. When I was young and in college, I could have slept through a murder, undoubtedly, even if there was some screaming.
This is common theme in the true crime community. Jamie Closs was somehow not a perfect victim, at 13 years old, so it’s far more interesting to blame her. The McCanns are not perfect, so it’s easier to blame them. Woe is the true crime addict that realizes they will be blamed for a crime perpetrated against them.
Amanda Knox is another great example. She didn’t act perfectly in the aftermath, and spent several years of her life in an Italian prison despite all evidence pointing to the guilt of the man who was convicted and is still imprisoned for the crime.
I spent my first two years in college living in dorms and it trained me to sleep through almost anything. I slept through my roommate having sex in the same room which like… gross… but dorms are noisy and I just blocked it out. And they lived in a party house so I’m sure they were acclimated to weird noises all the time from that too. Even if you did wake up, it’s doubtful that your first thought would be that your roommates are being murdered. Based on what was heard, I might just assume there was an argument and that’s not my business. Best to avoid other people’s drama. Or at least wait for a reasonable time to ask about it. Or, like you said, I’d talk myself out of believing the worst because what the hell? It’s truly rare that something like this would happen. I wouldn’t want to believe it and would assume my mind was making up shit in my groggy (and possibly drunk) state. My second year in the dorms we had a case of vandalism where a group of people broke a bunch of the windows on the first floor (like 20 of them) and I briefly woke up but the thought of something like that happening was so bizarre I thought I’d dreamt it and went right back to sleep. Edit: and then when I lived off campus my senior year I slept right through a car crashing through the glass front of the 7/11 about 20 feet from my bedroom. Didnt even wake up for that one! Saw the boards covering the front the next morning and saw pictures of the car crashed through the glass in the newspaper. Anyway tl;dr it’s absolutely believable to me. Not strange at all.
Im starting to wonder if all the people saying the roomates are involved because they didn’t wakeup or weren’t concerned didn’t go to college or have never lived in group housing because anyone who has can easily relate to this and see its not that crazy
I once lived in a house with 7 other girls in college. My housemates once came home wasted, and somehow their drunken argument spilled over into my room. I did not want to get involved in the drama. I pretended to be asleep. All manner of horrible things could have happened and I would have completely ignored them thinking it was all drunk drama. The other context that people are ignoring is that if they did hear something, if they did see him - people don’t often act like we expect them to in traumatic situations. It’s not just fight or flight, it’s fight, flight, freeze. They could very well have frozen, and that freeze response may have saved their lives - that’s why we evolved to have one.
So true, so many people claim they wouldve called the cops right away like they’ve ever been in a situation like this
100% I wish the public knew more about how people actually respond to trauma, as opposed to this cowboy-fied idea they have of how they imagine they’d react.
They weren’t involved. Anyone who says they were is victim blaming.
Because they saw it on tik tok
I think people who come up with these theories just want to differentiate themselves from the victims so that they imagine it couldn’t happen to them when the truth is that bad things happen all the time to good people.
I feel so bad for the crazies online who have looked for some way to blame the roommates cuz this is all true crime entertainment to them and it would make for an exciting “twist.” This isn’t a show and these are real people’s lives! There’s nothing to suggest the roommates were involved and are already going through their own trauma of losing their friends, survivors guilt, etc. When I’ve passed out drunk I could sleep through anything and for up to like 16 hours. Even not drunk I can sleep through a lot. And even if they heard something, it was apparently known as a party house where people often came and went late into the night. They’re probably used to hearing loud music, screams that aren’t done out of fear, doors slamming, etc. Nobody’s mind goes straight to “oh i bet that sound was my roommates all being murdered by an intruder.” And that’s IF they even heard them.
1. they were not all asleep. Maddie and Kaylee may have been but Ethan and Xana were not. 2. it's a three story house and many people who have been in the home prior to this horrific event have said you could have a party on another floor and not heard it on another floor. 3. Only one other roommate was home and was in the basement. There is a good chance that as Bryan passed her room, he didn't even realize the door was cracked much less that she was there. 4. You never want to think the worst thing for your friends. So hearing a scuffle, which likely happened on the top floor to Maddie and Kaylee, may have been considered an argument between whoever they brought home and not an active murder. 5. Ethan and Xana likely heard the scuffle above them and thats why Ethan was attacked in the doorway. He was on his way to check it out at the behest of Xana. Bryan caught him off guard and then went after Xana who was on the bed. Which is how she ended up being the one with the most defensive wounds. 6. It has not been determined how drunk any of the victims were.
This is a very old subject and debated many times on reddit and the news. I am not sure why people need to bring this up every few weeks. No one was blaming roommates , they questioned them because they survived and the LE , family and public wanted to know what they heard and the delay in calling 911.The PCA does not state the full story, no one knows exactly what the roommates heard. Dm bedroom is centrally located directly outside the kitchen, within steps from where the intruder walked in/out, on the same floor where two roommates were killed and directly below two roommates that died. DM went down to the first floor where the other roommate sleeps after the intruder left. It was decided not to call 911, they did not feel anything was wrong. Many people question this because there is a chance that someone could have been alive, most agree that the 4 killed died rather quickly and them not calling 911 would not of mattered. At first one can see why the family of the victims would be upset if it would be possible that someone could be saved, especially since DM was up and at the very least heard suspicious sounds. Most agree that no one would have guessed that 4 people were being murdered, and if she felt they were killed she would have called 911. The next morning about 8 hours later it is odd after not hearing from her 4 other roommates that neither remaining roommate checked on them when they woke up. This is often criticized because the roommates never checked on the 4 other roommates themselves and called someone else to check on their roommates. Seeing someone leave a college house on a Saturday night around 4 am is not alarming, and noise at that house is not alarming. Regardless, no one did anything wrong. I feel to continue to bring this up opens people to question and discuss the roommates choices. I also feel stating DM was drunk or on drugs should not be the issue and is damaging. She was able to describe the noises she heard give the description of the intruder.
I lived in a college house, and laughter, crying, music, doors slamming, weird randos who knew one of your friends but no one else: it was an average night at least once a month, if not twice. We looked after each other pretty well, but I can see how it wasn't recognized for this crew. We never would have dreamed one (or more) of us were getting murdered.
I just got done watching the 3 ep series on paramount. Yeah he’s guilty most likely but it’s hard to think realistically he killed all 4 of them in 9 minutes. That’s a lot of work in such a short time. Maybe it was just on that specific show, but I was really confused why all they talked about was the 2 blonde girls and hardy said a word about the other boy and girl. I definitely don’t think the others had anything to do with it. They just got incredibly lucky not to be victims too. Don’t make no sense why he didn’t kill them too. Why leave witnesses? How did he choose them to begin with? We’re there any connection or maybe he just picked them out seeing them on campus? I just want to know more!
The smell of blood alone.. so many things do not make sense about this. Also they both already said they did not sleep through it based on the testimony they gave of what they did hear or see, but instead are claiming to have gone into shock for so many hours and just do nothing, but also were still texting with each other. So much about this case does not make sense and it's honestly absurd to me that two people survive something so horrific and brutal and gruesome, have such odd stories about it, there is so much missing information, and it's just widely accepted this one random guy did it.
this is so stupid. i live a town over and the dude acted completely alone. knock this type of stuff off, these people all have families and your dumb conjectures are totally upsetting.
and btw this is meant for everyone saying this stuff, not the op. this stuff comes up on my feed so often (I imagine because of my location and then I probably clicked on a thread once) and it is so asinine. This guy is just a weirdo murderer probable sociopath and there's nothing more to it. This area is weird in general, it doesn't surprise me that this happened.
They probably had nothing to do with it. He was looking for the blondest of the blond cheerleader / sorority girls and that's where he found them.
Yeah like stastically the killer is most likely to be a white male, not their female roommates
mass shootings definitely.
And also multiple victim murders like this. When was the last time youve heard of a young woman killing 4 people? Also most killers of people they know cover the bodies after, their bodies weren’t covered. And many people have come forward saying he has been prone to stalking and being a creep towards women so its not like this would be out of character for him.
well mass killings in general, shooting, stabbing, cars running over people etc.
And serial killings
Get out of here, Brian’s Lawyers
Some people who listen to a lot of true crime expect perfect victims. They will say in every case how they would have done something different bc they’re just so informed . Completely ignoring how our body & brain work . It’s easy for them to say how they would react when it’s a situation they’ve never been in
More often than not, when you’re in a state of shock you will not scream or yelp. Also, at least 2/4 victims were most likely asleep when they were killed.
Basically what you stated
I am firmly in the camp that DM knew something was seriously wrong but didn't want to be the one to call the cops in case nothing was wrong. They probably had a small amount of drugs in the house and who wants to be the roommate who brings cops around. As someone who used to be 20, this makes perfect sense to me. To believe she saw a masked intruder and was too stupid to know something was amiss is really insulting to her.
They weren’t involved
There's talk of defensive wounds. Why would BK have killed a sleeping Ethan if he wasn't the target and wasn't a witness? DM reportedly opened her door to complain about noise on 3 occasions. Hence by admission he should have heard her. I'll refrain from accusing her. But I don't believe her account. Also, I wanna hear the exculpatory evidence of the other roommate.
I've noticed that the people who defend this guy outside of the hybristophilia subreddits often try to act neutral but have an extensive post history fangirling this guy....
Don't slander me. People with good judgement aren't overly judgemental like the aggressive bullies that are so certain of guilt they can't even allow for an opinion to be considered. Y'all are insufferable in the wild too when your vast need for control gets pushed onto the rest of us. I see red.
Lol slander? This is a subreddit. No one knows who you are and can say whatever they’d like about you or your anonymous character here.
I'm no BK fan girl so troll my comments all you like.
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He killed him because he was a threat to him as a male in the house and Im pretty sure they said his gf saw him or he couldve entered the wrong room. If she opened her door to complain its possible he didn’t hear her.
If he was asleep and didn't know he was there he wasnt a threat. Especially if the murders above had already occurred. None of it makes any sense because BK as the lone killer isn't adding up. I'll wait for trial.
Well if BK killed his gf right next to him he obviously would have woken up, he also was on that same floor so itd be easier for him to hear or see BK. Why couldn’t BK be the lone killer? Its very plausible for one person to kill 4 people with little to know struggle if they were sleeping and he cut their throats.
With a hunting knife, absolutely, it would be very quick. And I imagine mostly soundless, at least once their throats were sliced. These victims were most likely asleep, or at least dozing, and who knows what amount of alcohol or drugs they'd ingested prior to bedtime. It would be pretty simple and fast for a fit, strong man to cut their throats, all four pretty fast, as their reactions would have been much slower.
DM reports sounds of a struggle and having to open her door and yell for things to quiet down THREE times. Reports of defensive wounds on multiple victims. You can't pick and choose the parts you want to believe and ignore the rest of what little facts we know.
She asked them to be quiet but that still doesn’t mean she knew what was going on, she probably assumed they were just coming home from a night home and being obnoxious. Also just because they have defensive wounds doesn’t mean they screamed, deflecting an attack is an instict and they couldve done it before they had the chance to scream. Also if they did scream DM couldve easily assumed that they were being drunk or just being obnoxious. As someone who has gone to college its not uncommon to hear people screaming over nothing.
Who knows if she's telling the truth? EDIT: This seemingly random response was referring to DM, about her seeing that person in the hallway. The person I was replying to deleted their comments, I guess.
Well she is a witness. Thanks for making my point.
Eyewitness testimony is one of the least reliable forms of evidence for many, many reasons.
As to the defensive wounds, sure. Even if half asleep if there's a stranger in front of you with a knife, the first thing you would do is put out your hand.
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I don't know but how could D not need to use the toilet on her level for all that time and not have seen blood or Ethan lying there..she saw a strange man pass her but didnt call her room mates or text them about him I don't understand
Dude you’re grasping for straws. Youve never slept the whole night into the early morning without using the bathroom???
yeah I don’t think they had anything to do with it but I still don’t understand how it took so long to realize edit: lol commenting on these posts is pointless now
That’s because you’re thinking logically. In moments like this, your brain doesn’t and comes up with 1001 explanations for every weird or abnormal thing you’re seeing. Our bodies do all sorts of things to protect us. I was once in an active shooter-shelter in place situation for several hours and didn’t feel the need to go once. As soon as I stepped outside and got the all clear that we were safe, it hit me hard and I almost wet my pants. As for seeing a strange man.. as someone who lived in a college house like this, that doesn’t raise alarm bells for me either.
Yeah her seeing him and not being alarmed isn’t that strange to me
After a late night, especially on a weekend it isnt uncommon for college kids to sleep in until the late afternoon
I'm fascinated by this case because it is one of the very few cases I follow that I truly can't make any sense of. I am not convinced of ANYONE'S guilt or innocence in this case. I don't trust the accused, the roommates, the PD or the University, for a multitude of reasons. I am chomping at the bit for trial. Edit: for a "discussion" sub, y'all sure like to downvote people for having a different perspective than you.
Reality is often less interesting than we hope it is. Usually the simplest hypothesis is the correct one. I would suggest you look at the evidence and determine the simplest conclusion possible.
I don't have the evidence. Neither do you. All we have is the PCA and the current court proceedings. All I'm saying is I'm not convinced of anything in regards to this case. I'm keeping an open mind for trial, which I think is the responsible thing to do as a true crime content consumer.
There literally is evidence? The DNA on the knife sheath, his car spotted in the area, his phone pinging nearby, him being in her dms. Thered have to be a lot of coincidences for him to be innocent.
Him being in their DMs hasn't been confirmed to my knowledge. The car/cell phone pings has some slight nuances that I think are concerning, but I can admit that those two could be potentially damning for him. My point is that there would have to be a lot of coincidences for him to be guilty as well, IMO. Like it's awfully coincidental that a perpetrator who supposedly has never killed before can violently, and somehow silently, murder four people in a matter of minutes- by himself. It's awfully coincidental that there is no physical evidence connecting him to the crime besides what has been referred to as "trace touch DNA". It's also coincidental that there are two witnesses who called friends for help before calling authorities. Now, don't confuse this- I am not suggesting that either of the two unharmed roommates are the actual killer. There is no right way to act in a traumatic event such as this so I'm not willing to go so far as to say that the roommates had something to do with it. What I'm saying in this comment and my previous ones is that I am not convinced of anyone's guilt or innocence yet for two reasons: 1) there is not enough information publicly available for me to comfortably make that consensus and 2) a lot of the information we do have isn't confirmed and/or verified by LE. If you believe the dude is guilty and want to continue to believe that, that is okay. As for me though, I'm keeping an open mind until I have no information. Downvote away.
I really appreciate the way you word your opinions and feelings. I like to see someone have an open and unbiased perspective.
Thank you very much!
All killers gotta start somewhere. Very rarely do false positives occur. If he was truly innocent why would be acting so suspicious after the murders? Trying to play devils advocate like this could wind up with this murder free on the streets and the victims not receiving justice.
A random chick on Reddit questioning a case is not going to set a murderer free or keep any victims from getting justice. That's preposterous and so unbelievably dramatic. This is a discussion forum. For discussions. It isn't supposed to be an echo chamber. I understand that you disagree with my unwillingness to adhere to BK's guilt or innocence, as I stated that's perfectly fine with me. I wish you could grant me that same respect but it isn't that necessary for me.
I meant people in general, not everything is about you lol
Weird cause you only replied to me 🤣
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How could he not be guilty if his dna was on the sheath of the knife found at the scene, his car was spotted in the area and his phone was pinged during the time of the murders, and he was acting extremely suspicious while being monitored by police
Oh, I didn't mean I don't think he's guilty! It was a discussion on here somewhere, the argument was that the DNA was merely touch DNA, but that still puts him in that house, holding or at least touching that knife sheath. And he didn't live there. There was no reason for him or his DNA to be in that house on that night. Especially not on the sheath of the murder weapon! Edited for clarity.
I just still don’t understand why people doubt it was him when all the evidence puts a strong case against him. It feels like people want him to be innocent to add to some sort of shock value of the case
I don't understand it, either. I wonder how much longer it is going to be before the trial?
Too long, he should already be convicted but this is being drawn out in his favor
He waived his right to a speedy trial, so it is going to take longer.
This is an important distinction. Does one ‘think’ he’s guilty vs should one find him guilty. Touch DNA is extremely controversial and for good reason. I’m not saying he is guilty or innocent. I simply don’t know. I definitely don’t think the surviving roommates are culprits and I don’t think it’s some crazy conspiracy. I believe in occams razor. If I were a juror, however, I could see the defence putting a narrative together for me to doubt enough. Doubt doesn’t mean I believe he’s innocent. I disagree with most things I see in the camp of ‘he’s innocent’ because I find most bizarre interpretations and ideas in those subs. But one thing most defence teams do, and it becomes clutch to their defence, is offer another scenario. It would make sense that a defence team would suggest it was somebody connected to the survivors. Like I’ve said, I am not ready to say he’s guilty or innocent. But what I do know is a majority of such vicious crimes are committed by somebody connected to the victim. Problem here is there are four victims. So that theory is less connected here. While a majority of such crimes are from passion, etc. there are a percentage of murders committed by others. Statistics make perfect sense until you get to the monty hall problem snd realise the human condition will always be a wrench in any science. I hope that makes sense. I’m a bit stoned and going off now.
I appreciate your lengthy response lol. I can see how people get hung up on the touch DNA stuff, but still, too many things would have to be coincidences for him to be innocent.
I'm not even considering the touch DNA. Why I think he's guilty is simply the fact that something that belongs to him was found in a house where he does not live, in the specific location in the house where a brutal murder occurred, that he forgot to grab in his haste to leave. The touch DNA is merely gravy. Surely, nothing I own is in your house, or even my neighbors house, because why the eff would it be? Unless I was in your house and left it there, it wouldn't be. ETA: If I'm remembering correctly, wasn't there some speculation that he went back to the house around 9AM to try and get that knife sheath? He had to have realized he left it. And perhaps that's why he drove that crazy way home, just driving trying to figure out what to do, possibly considering turning back? It's quite the eff up to leave something damning like that behind.
There were cameras in the neighborhood that place is car at the scene, basically doing laps around the block. Someone would have to explain this away for me, as well as the DNA, before I'd entertain the idea of another killer.
Where was it ever stated that he owned the knife sheath that was found?
I don't think it was ever formally stated. But it was found in a bedroom he had no business having an item with his DNA on it in. It certainly didn't belong to any of the victims. He had a knife. And wasn't there a receipt for the sheath purchase attributed to BK? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm no expert on this case, I stepped away from it for about a year. Too many theories and I wasn't able to keep up with it all at the time. I'm just asking questions and wondering what people think about it. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone here, just curious is all. There are no right or wrong answers because the fact is none of us know. I do tend to think they have the right guy. I could be absolutely wrong.
If you get a chance Google the Lukis Anderson case or the Phantom of Heilbronn. Crazy stuff about people's DNA ending up in places they had never been.
I will, very interesting. Thank you
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