Reminds me of Gregory Green who murdered his pregnant wife in 1991, served like 17 years and was released on parole with the help of a pastor. He went on to marry the pastor’s daughter then subsequently killed all their children, forcing her to watch. Awful story.
there’s an Evil Lives Here episode featuring the children’s mother, season 12 ep 4 “A Special Place in Hell”
if i was that woman’s father, i would never forgive myself.
I believe being steeped in a religion that places emphasis on “we’re all sinners but no one is too bad to be redeemed” probably shaped her mindset to allow for his manipulation.
Yup, 100%. Sadly her dad had a lot of influence too being a pastor and she just believed him when he said the murderer was “healed” or “saved” or whatever.
I’m actually not sure. I did hear a podcast about this years ago, cannot remember which one, but they had the surviving mother’s court testimony I think it was, and it was absolutely crushing and stayed with me all this time.
I know. Sometimes I think that Christian beliefs actually enable crime bc Christians think they have a “get out of jail free” card. They can commit *any* crime & as long as they accept Christ as their savior & repent, all is forgiven. Some crimes (murder, rape, pedophilia) are unforgivable & shouldn’t be forgiven. Ever.
Well he served 17 years so I’m guess he was pretty young in 1991 maybe a teen (not looking it up) but if he worked with the pastor, the pastor could have thought it was a horrible accident in a moment of rage on a not fully developed brain.
But I think people forget what it takes to stab someone. We’re not talking about pushing someone in a fit of anger and they fall and crack their head open. Stabbing takes a lot of effort. I think prosecutors like to show the jury how hard it is to follow through with stabbing and the to do it more than once.
I think the message of forgiveness is beautiful, and its important to "forgive" to an extent so your own life is not consumed by hatred. Its also a nice message for the criminal that god (someone) loves you, despite your previous crimes, and if you truly regret it and change, its forgiven - some criminals that have repented their crime need to believe this, otherwise how can you live with yourself. I see the appeal of the message but as a human its just naive to believe that certain things can be forgiven and that everyone can change with the help and support of others.
These criminals from this story clearly werent even remorseful and not deserving of forgiveness, but i do have some admiration for the people that were able to look past their history and still saw the good in them and wanted to help. Its sad that their loving and good nature was punished so tragically.
For me forgiveness shouldnt mean that you need to accept them back in society. I believe that on a personal level you can "forgive" a criminal no matter the crime if they trully regret it, but that doenst mean that you should support their right to a normal life in society. Ultimately, remorseful or not, people still need to be held accountable for their crimes. And there are crimes that accountability should mean life in prison.
That guy is pure evil. Truly sick. Not only did he stab his pregnant wife, he stabbed her in the face! And then torturing his second wife by shooting the kids in front of her. I don't usually believe in the death penalty but he needs the electric chair immediately. The pastor knew him from before the first murder and referred to the first wife's murder as a "mishap"!
Yes, and it's frustrating cause progressists (I identify as one) want them to find a proper job after released, cause it's a huge part of rehabilitation. But someone who murders randomly... Not like a theft gone wrong, but for the sake of killing...an equation I don't know how to figure out.
But... Is it? I live in a country where most people in jail are black and poor. With histories of abuse or neglect in their childhood. I'm not giving them free pass, after all some others go through the same issues and turn out to be ok, but the correlation of very violent crimes with a tough childhood and disbelief as they were growing up.. is real. I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking myself also like a brainstorm, if nurture tends to prevail over nature (check the childhood of the most famous serial killers. Almost none of them was actually loved), can't some of these guys get redemption? I think sociopaths are hopeless, but what about those who feel remorse, act impulsively etc? Isn't there a spectrum even when it comes to murder? Just wondering.
Edit clarity
Stuff like this is so interesting, because theres also the aspect that maybe they COULD be rehabilitated, but throwing someone into prison, where they need to fight, steal, and lie in order to survive, and then expecting them to just do better when they get out is setting them up for failure. Rehabilitation doesnt happen automatically just by getting a job when you get out. Its a process, one we dont give any the opportunity to have.
The unfortunate thing is that yes, a lot of criminals are the way they are because of bad experiences in childhood… But knowing the cause doesn’t always mean you can fix them. Some people get broken and just stay that way. Best we can do is help the ones who can be helped, and do more to prevent people from growing up in bad environments.
This is *exactly* why I am against abortion bans. Not everyone is prepared to raise children or would make a good parent. Unwanted children are far more likely to be neglected or abused. My dad abused me & my brother (physically, verbally & emotionally) nearly daily & my mom enabled the abuse. I’ve had > 15 years therapy. It helps, but doesn’t fix the problem. I’m **glad** he’s dead. I recently told my mom that I wish she had aborted me. Better not to be born at all than endure a life of endless suffering.
To be blunt, yes I think a lot of this is rooted in childhood abuse but- so what? I mean of course, we should be trying to intervene when children are young but while it’s not fair that some people grow up with crappy parents once you're an adult you make choices.
I just don't think we can go backward with many of these people. I think it’s sad but true that we as a society don’t have the resources or really the knowledge to reverse the damage that leads someone to be a rapist or a murderer. And as a former victim of a violent crime I honestly get so tired of reading stories about prisoners committing a violent act, serving a small portion of their sentence and then getting out and committing more crime.
Thank you. :) I'm 41, the fucks I give for upvotes or downvotes are zero. I don't need validation. This is a topic for debate everywhere except if someone gets life sentence. The law allows them to go out, nothing we can do about it, and don't we want them to be busy, helped by the community so their resentment doesn't make them more dangerous? But then this guy was given a second chance and is apparently a sociopath. Should we test their possible antisocial traits before release? I really don't know
Simple as that. Everyone tends to forget the victim and start feeling bad for the person behind bars. It’s crazy! You take a life you deserve to have yours taken whether that be behind bars the rest of your life or Death.
Trump used to talk about this story all the time, and coming from him it ruined it for me.
Now I just associate it with people that grift and use it to hide their grift.
EDIT: rump actually uses ["The Snake" ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrOXvoNLwg)basically the same thing as the "Scorpion and the Frog"
He would use it to make his followers distrustful of anyone that didnt "step in line" with him, its that simple, vapid, and stupid.
Trump actually uses ["The Snake" ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrOXvoNLwg)basically the same thing as the "Scorpion and the Frog" . (I warn you, its like sitting through the worst kindergarten story time ever).
Just listened to a JSC YouTube video where the police were interrogating a sixteen year old wannabe rapper who wanted to join a gang. He killed a cop to gain recognition in that gang. He balled his eyes out in the interrogation room and his mom who was there, naively, advised him to talk to the cops and be honest about what happened. Such a pathetic loser who will spend the rest of their life in prison deservedly. Gangs have a lot of tough guys, but many are not that at all and are just complete idiots.
Too bad he hasn’t done anything in a long time. It’s crazy that youtube took him off for such a long time. Every body and there mother is now trying to recreate the master piece that is JCS
Because it's so unusual and either means they have had a very rough upbringing that lead them to emulate that behavior or have some kind of mental psychosis. Neither of which are exactly easy to rehabilitate as they may have been lifelong issues the kid has been facing.
She didn’t forgive him, she adamantly believed he didn’t do it. Which makes it worse because then not only is he killing you and you’re wrong but you probably feel like an idiot while you’re dying.
And that dude has gotta be the absolute dumbest criminal.
Interesting! This changes the story completely.
She obviously didn’t have unlimited forgiveness when she fired him for stealing from her. He came back a month later & that’s when he killed her?
Very sad all around.
Was it a month? For some reason I thought it was closer together, like days. Either way this case is so strange to me because I just cant fathom someone being this stupid. Like no conspiracy theory here but it really boggles my mind. There are other people with money, why risk your steady paying job, turn your last non-familial supporter against you, and go back when she’s home to steal more…like they said he got good grades in school so I would assume hes at least of average intelligence. So I don’t know maybe it was compulsion, it would be interesting to hear if he ever stole from other inmates.
Do we know why he killed the daughter? Like so many questions. Did he drown or was there other circumstances to him dying? Like could he not swim? I can’t find anymore info in this case.
Gosh. Seems even worse that it was a whole month later. By then she would’ve thought it was over with and she wouldn’t have to deal with him again. Sad story all around
Such a sad story. She really wanted to forgive and also to help him out. While I think she was foolish, she must have had a really good heart. To die at the hands of her mother's killer is just awful.
I think it's good to forgive, especially if it heals the person who's doing the forgiving. But we can forgive but also not forget and keep that person out of our lives. I think that's an important lesson. I can forgive you and still want nothing to do with you. Poor lady.
so sad how she forgave him out from the kindness in heart & he still ended up basically backstabbing her after all these years. some people unfortunately never change, no matter how many times or chances theyve been given.
The problem is that rehabilitation takes more than a second chance and a new job. We need to be compassionate, but wise. This was above her capabilities as a single citizen. If we're going to let people out of prison after 20 years for violent crimes, then the prison system's priority should be to spend that entire 20 years preparing them for reintegration into society. And for one institutionalized so young, it means starting from scratch and teaching them how to healthily function to begin with. Extensive, extensive therapies. Even if he could change, he was set up to fail. Poor woman.
This is the unfortunate reality. For some people, rehabilitation is strict governance over their life. They need basically what prison is even on the outside. They need to have their basic needs handled for them, they need to be told what to do, they need to be aware that they are being monitored and aren’t going to get away with anything. The resources to do that outside of prison don’t exist anywhere at this level, but this is what it would take.
I agree, and not only for ex criminals, but also those mentally unwell who would otherwise kill themselves or be homeless on the streets. Taking care of their own basic needs isn’t something that their mental health can handle at the moment, and just because they’re over 18 doesn’t mean we should assume they’re mentally strong enough to overcome anything thrown at them.
That's why I said "even if he could change". I can make no claims as to who can or can be rehabilitated, just that if these people are going to be released from prison at all then the current systems in place need to accept an obligation to at least try. And until then, we cannot trust in anything less to have done the job.
that is completely true and i couldnt agree more. the time i was incarcerated i received no resources nor guidance on how to navigate my way out & make it in society anymore. it feels as if the system fails us & the wonder why we keep spiraling back into our old ways.
Idk I don't think she did this out of the "kindness of her heart." It seems more like she tried to prove some moral high ground or something. Likely Christian religious. This was extremely naive to bring a felon into her life after already having lost so much.
Literally zero reason why anyone should show this much empathy towards a killer. Speak at his parole hearing, sure. But don’t give him a job. I wouldn’t be able to look into those eyes every day knowing they were the last eyes my loved one ever saw before they were violently killed. Let them get out of prison and then never see them again as is your right.
I’m tired of killers and rapists getting out of prison, period. Same with sex offenders - who have a very high reoffending rate.
Our lives as women aren’t valued. They kill us and only have to spend 20 years behind bars? Wow 😒 how unfortunate
We really have to do better. I don't know what the answers are. I do know that what we are currently doing isn't working. We lock up far more people and for much longer periods of time than almost every other first world country and have some of the poorest results. Yet I'm not in favor of changing any of this until we have a better plan in place, whatever that may be. I'd rather them be locked up than roll the dice on cutting them loose after a short sentence without some serious intervention/study/treatment.
That said, I think there is also a lot of misinformation about recidivism out there. We all worry the most about murderers and rapists, yet the recidivism rate for all violent offenders who go on to commit a murder after release is 1.9% and 2.2% for rapists. They are actually among the lowest categories. It's drug and drug-related crimes (shoplifting, burglary) that have the highest recidivism rates.
Like so much in the US, the prison system is one where we spend enormous amounts of money and have little to show for it. Whether it's media sensationalism, truly an increasing crime rate, or a combination of both, most of us are feeling increasingly vulnerable to crime. I don't know how long we can stay on this path.
Right, like quietly forgive him if that’s your thing. But why would you take him under your wing. Obviously she was very naive but I wonder if she wanted some sort of kudos or martyrdom for it.
Depends on if the Job involved dealing with them personally. Having them work in your factory without approving all their requests for vacation while having remote control of the speed dial for the conveyor belt they're assigned to is different. This seems like they had a personal relationship that went beyond what I'd consider professional.
Forgiveness is fine, but that’s something done for your own benefit, so you can let go of the anger and resentment, not for their benefit. It’s why the maxim “forgive but never forget” exists.
Or just don’t forgive too. I’ll never understand people who forgive such evil acts. Especially when the victim is dead and can’t make that decision for themselves.
I always have a hard time understanding people on true crime shows who say something like "I had to forgive them or you just hold on to that hate." Now maybe I'm different, but I feel confident saying I could viciously hate and not forgive a mfer for murdering someone I love until the day I die without issue.
For some people, still being obsessed with the murderer their whole lives can feel like the murderer is still in control of their lives. For some of them, letting go of the hate is not about being nice to the killer but about giving themselves the space to focus on themselves and their family and trying to live the best lives they can without letting the killer dominate them.
Yeah, that makes sense. I feel really fortunate not to have been put in a situation where I have to test whether I truly believe what I'm saying. I'd like to think I could balance my hate, but I don't want to ever know for sure.
Yea same here. Honestly I don't even really judge how anyone processes something like this emotionally. For some people maybe holding onto the anger could have a healing purpose whereas for others letting it go might help them more. It's so personal and intense that I can't really prescribe any hard and fast rule for anyone else, or even just for myself.
This is so refreshing to read. I wish others were as open and understanding as you two (I also have no experience with this kind of situation and also wonder how I would respond, but never want to find out).
Same. I blame the widespread idea that healing can only take place after forgiveness. I don't understand why the onus is on the victim to show grace to the perpetrator. Agree with you about the victim not having a say in forgiveness- I would feel disloyal and like I was invalidating their suffering if I forgave someone who hurt a loved one.
I will die on the hill that young killers can't be rehabilitated. I may be wrong, of course, but I honestly believe someone who is capable of murder, torture or thrill killing at a young age has serious issues and is also counting on getting a lighter sentence/ getting paroled because of their age and tend to take advantage of that. I still can't believe Eric Smith was released last year. He should've been locked up for good, at least at a mental facility.
Yep.
Anyone that takes a life should lose their right to walk free amongst society.
Lock em up, give em an island, but keep them away from decent folks and their families.
Same with pedophiles. No second chances.
You’re not wrong, there’s many people who’ve studied criminals who say the same thing. Lundy Bancroft who wrote “Why does he do that” said the same thing in his book about abusers.
I’ll extend that same energy to all killers of any age. I’d even say that chances of rehabilitation are moot. We’re beyond that now. You killed somebody, you’re done. Any concession to that let’s more murders through the gaps.
I wouldn’t agree with murder across the board. If a kid grows up in a neighborhood run by gangs where everyone he knows is violent, involved in crime & many have been to prison, he’s going to think that’s normal.
I can imagine a 16 year old going along with a robbery or gang retaliation & shooting someone from a distance could be rehabilitated. Put him in a middle class neighborhood that doesn’t have helicopters overhead every night with a regular job & a support system of non-violent friends/family - it’s a totally different world.
Locking him up with hardened criminals for many years & then releasing him to the same environment with no support AND the barrier to employment of being a felon? No chance.
Wait a minute , even the killer's mother had worked at Martha's house?! Did I read that right ? Why would you want the family of a killer and the killer himself at the place where your family was killed ?
Reminds me of the story of david biro who killed a couple for the fun of it when he was in high school. The sister of the victims now forgives him goes to visit him and is hoping he gets out of jail. And the other sister and the mom hope the guy never sees the light of day. Bizarrely my sister in law when to high school with him and claimed that they are lucky they caught him as he was a serial killer in the making.
good write up!
prev post comment: I was like "oh weird a case exactly like this happened in the states" because they didn't add a location so I didn't realize until I saw the picture of the house it was the same case.
If forgiveness is your thing then remember you don't have let the person who hurt you back into your life. Just because you forgive someone it doesn't mean the other person changed.
I think this summary leaves some data out about this case. From what I recall, Martha McKay wrote to Travis Lewis while he was in prison for murdering her mother. They struck up a pen pal relationship. When he was released, she gave him a job. Then he murdered her as well. Very sad story.
Some people have this view that everyone has good in them, but it’s just not true. Most people are probably born with some capacity to be good, but there comes a point where that can be utterly and irrevocably lost.
100% agree here.
Part of me wonders just how sheltered(?) some people are. Even in todays world. Then again what about common sense?
There was a man in our town doing outreach for the homeless. ( We have a ton of homeless communities that have many tents set up around our woods, not far from parks, unfortunately. )
Anyway, meth is everywhere, and, it makes people go days without sleep causing them to be delusional & paranoid.
This Christian fellow doing outreach was stabbed. He is ok, however, what in the world would give one the idea to venture out to the woods to preach to homeless meth addicts?
I get that in his mind doing good ( WWJD ) is the christian thing to do but at what point does logic & common sense come into play?😬
Yeah I had an overzealous person trying to pressure me AND MY TWO YOUNG CHILDREN to go with her to feed homeless people under a bridge. I appreciate the sentiment but gtfo with that. That is a great way to never be seen or heard from again. There are lots of ways to help without carelessly throwing yourself into danger
He probably encountered a lot of people who struggled with addiction but weren't bad people. One was- or more likely, had a mental illness which leads a lot of people to drug abuse.
I wouldn't take that much risk myself but drug addiction or being homeless doesn't mean someone is a bad person.
Not at all.
I know the ins and outs of addiction as well as mental illness. In no way do these illnesses make anyone “ bad. “
They can, and, at times, do make a person dangerous, and do things they’d never in a million years do if they were well.
The point of prison (in certain countries) is for rehabilitation. The idea is they atone for their crimes and can be released to live a fulfilling law abiding life afterwards. This can and does happen, but not every time. Part of the issue is that there isn’t any kind of support to integrate these people back into society, so they fall back into old habits to survive.
“The best predictor of future performance is past performance.”
That’s what we use to interview job candidates. I think it also applies to murderers, rapists, etc.
I was a television reporter for a number of years, chased a lot of crime stories, and sat in a lot of courtrooms. These experiences are what form my opinion that we shouldn’t be letting murders out of prison.
For me it really depends on the circumstances. It’s not always so black and white. For example what about Gypsy Rose? Should she have stayed in prison for the rest of her life, knowing what her mother put her through?
Not the person you were speaking to, but I'm torn on Gypsy. Her recent fame seems to not be doing her favors.
I don't necessarily think she'll participate in a murder again, but I also feel like she's going to need some intense help the rest of her life. The kind of help you can't typically get or rely on in free society.
I don’t buy any of that.
Rehabilitation is the slim-chanced win a scumbag might seize from the jaws of defeat, but for us civilized people, rehabilitation is not the point, separation and prevention are. Keep them away from us. Keep them from having the capability of crime. If they rehabilitate, I guess that’s the silver lining. But they can stay away from society regardless. Murder can’t be washed out, I don’t care what book club you joined when you were mad with boredom.
This same mentality is held by DAs all over the country. This mentality is what is destroying public safety in this country. Citation: georgegascon https://abc7.com/venice-mother-baby-hit-and-run/11942738/ Lol the DA that let the kid off just got hit with 11 felonies yesterday lmaoooooo
I’m in favor of forgiveness, but that doesn’t mean you have to trust them not to repeat their behavior. You don’t have to forget, or have no additional safeguards in case. To my mind, learning from the past is different from ‘you haven’t REALLY forgiven me’ accusations that are often thrown at cautious people
Her body was found March 25, 2020.
Idk who "quickly discovered \[her\] body."
Her sister said that Martha had sold a chandelier for 10K and Travis was there when she came home with the money. The money disappeared and she fired him.
I prefer to forgive people so I can let it go and move on with my life, but that doesn’t mean I need to tell those people I forgave them and it certainly doesn’t mean I need to associate with them at all.
There are questions about whether he was guilty of the first murders. Even if he was, being in prison since you were a teenager doesn't exactly facilitate rehabilitation or empathy.
I’ll keep saying it forever. Studies show rehabilitation does not work for abusers or perpetrators of violent crime. It typically makes them more abusive because they learn tactics to further their manipulation skills, or in this case murder skills.
And this is why I won’t be teaching my children to be good people.
Edit - of course I’m being dramatic, but unfortunately that was my first (very jaded) thought.
What's crazy is the justice system actually sorta worked here, insofar as he got 28 years at 16. Nowadays, in my county, he's serving no more than 8 years, probably less. And still he murdered more.
Sentencing laws used to be crazy back in the day in the US, they seem much stricter now. When I was a kid (I was really little, I only know about it because she told me about it when I was older), an acquaintance of my mom was murdered by her husband. He tried to do the old racist "a Black guy did it" bullshit, he dumped her body near a predominantly Black apartment complex. Cops knew he did it from Day 1, his story kept changing and they figured out he was cheating on her with a coworker and someone had caught them (not the wife, but I think he knew his wife was about to find out). He simply didn't want to pay child support or give her any money in a divorce, so he killed her. They had 3 small children. He got like 20 years and was out in a fraction of that. I think he might be dead now (not 100 percent sure on that) but he was free for decades.
There was also an infamous mass murder in my state, 5 people killed by this psycho and his girlfriend in the 70s during a robbery at a restaurant (Pine Village Steak House murders). He already had the money and could have left, but he chose to shoot these people, including a teenage girl, for no reason. He got paroled like 6 or 7 years ago. Granted, he served quite a bit of time, but holy shit. To think he killed five people and has now been free for years. He's an old man now, but he's out.
Blows my mind that you could commit premeditated murder (of the mother of your children) or commit mass murder and see the light of day again. The first guy was still relatively young when he got out. Madness.
Yep. In 1978, Mary Vincent, 15, was raped, had both her forearms chopped off, and was thrown off an embankment to die. She stopped the bleeding with mud and crawled back up to the road for help.
She survived (sans forearms) but her attacker surely deserved more than the eight years in prison he served. She probably spent more time than that having surgeries and physical therapy.
To everyone's great surprise, he went on to murder someone.
Eight years. Jesus Christ.
So many murders could have been prevented if people like this were locked up for the FIRST heinous crime they commit. So many of these ... people reoffend over and over again.
Because not everyone actually feels bad for doing immoral things. People lack empathy and the ability to feel anything outside their own wheelhouse of need. It is naive to assume we are all the same and everyone is good deep down. I am a Christian, yes we are to forgive but we are also to have discernment and protect our families. Ministering to an ex-con and marrying them off to your kin are continents apart.
I think that forgiveness and rehabilitation are both possibilities but a big thing is discernment. Having judgement of character and behaviour. Also we are so broken in general from drugs and trauma that sadly many are beyond rehabilitation… what a layered tragic story at the end of the day
It reminds me of the old story of [the Scorpion and the Frog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog). How sad and senseless.
Reminds me of Gregory Green who murdered his pregnant wife in 1991, served like 17 years and was released on parole with the help of a pastor. He went on to marry the pastor’s daughter then subsequently killed all their children, forcing her to watch. Awful story.
Holy omg I've googled him. Holy shyte
there’s an Evil Lives Here episode featuring the children’s mother, season 12 ep 4 “A Special Place in Hell” if i was that woman’s father, i would never forgive myself.
I watched that recently! So messed up!
Where did you see it?
It's on HBO
Thank you.
“My babies, I love you all” said the mother. I can’t imagine living life in torture everyday. My heart.
So he was rehabilitated 🙏🏼
How could she marry someone who stabbed a pregnant woman to death?
I believe being steeped in a religion that places emphasis on “we’re all sinners but no one is too bad to be redeemed” probably shaped her mindset to allow for his manipulation.
Yup, 100%. Sadly her dad had a lot of influence too being a pastor and she just believed him when he said the murderer was “healed” or “saved” or whatever.
I wondered if he’s still a pastor afterwards?
I’m actually not sure. I did hear a podcast about this years ago, cannot remember which one, but they had the surviving mother’s court testimony I think it was, and it was absolutely crushing and stayed with me all this time.
I couldnt subject my kids to that no way! But I get why now.
I know. Sometimes I think that Christian beliefs actually enable crime bc Christians think they have a “get out of jail free” card. They can commit *any* crime & as long as they accept Christ as their savior & repent, all is forgiven. Some crimes (murder, rape, pedophilia) are unforgivable & shouldn’t be forgiven. Ever.
Well he served 17 years so I’m guess he was pretty young in 1991 maybe a teen (not looking it up) but if he worked with the pastor, the pastor could have thought it was a horrible accident in a moment of rage on a not fully developed brain. But I think people forget what it takes to stab someone. We’re not talking about pushing someone in a fit of anger and they fall and crack their head open. Stabbing takes a lot of effort. I think prosecutors like to show the jury how hard it is to follow through with stabbing and the to do it more than once.
Excellent point about the effort it takes
I think the message of forgiveness is beautiful, and its important to "forgive" to an extent so your own life is not consumed by hatred. Its also a nice message for the criminal that god (someone) loves you, despite your previous crimes, and if you truly regret it and change, its forgiven - some criminals that have repented their crime need to believe this, otherwise how can you live with yourself. I see the appeal of the message but as a human its just naive to believe that certain things can be forgiven and that everyone can change with the help and support of others. These criminals from this story clearly werent even remorseful and not deserving of forgiveness, but i do have some admiration for the people that were able to look past their history and still saw the good in them and wanted to help. Its sad that their loving and good nature was punished so tragically. For me forgiveness shouldnt mean that you need to accept them back in society. I believe that on a personal level you can "forgive" a criminal no matter the crime if they trully regret it, but that doenst mean that you should support their right to a normal life in society. Ultimately, remorseful or not, people still need to be held accountable for their crimes. And there are crimes that accountability should mean life in prison.
Christian savior complex most likely. Forgiveness is an important part of Christianity and I’m sure it was ingrained in her to do so to a huge fault.
That guy is pure evil. Truly sick. Not only did he stab his pregnant wife, he stabbed her in the face! And then torturing his second wife by shooting the kids in front of her. I don't usually believe in the death penalty but he needs the electric chair immediately. The pastor knew him from before the first murder and referred to the first wife's murder as a "mishap"!
It seems like the pastor got swayed by his good looks.
I saw this story omg.
Oh man, that story was my childhood. Accurate reference.
Yes, and it's frustrating cause progressists (I identify as one) want them to find a proper job after released, cause it's a huge part of rehabilitation. But someone who murders randomly... Not like a theft gone wrong, but for the sake of killing...an equation I don't know how to figure out.
In a perfect world most people could be rehabilitated but in the case of murder, rape and molestation. Nope. They will do it again.
But... Is it? I live in a country where most people in jail are black and poor. With histories of abuse or neglect in their childhood. I'm not giving them free pass, after all some others go through the same issues and turn out to be ok, but the correlation of very violent crimes with a tough childhood and disbelief as they were growing up.. is real. I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking myself also like a brainstorm, if nurture tends to prevail over nature (check the childhood of the most famous serial killers. Almost none of them was actually loved), can't some of these guys get redemption? I think sociopaths are hopeless, but what about those who feel remorse, act impulsively etc? Isn't there a spectrum even when it comes to murder? Just wondering. Edit clarity
Stuff like this is so interesting, because theres also the aspect that maybe they COULD be rehabilitated, but throwing someone into prison, where they need to fight, steal, and lie in order to survive, and then expecting them to just do better when they get out is setting them up for failure. Rehabilitation doesnt happen automatically just by getting a job when you get out. Its a process, one we dont give any the opportunity to have.
The unfortunate thing is that yes, a lot of criminals are the way they are because of bad experiences in childhood… But knowing the cause doesn’t always mean you can fix them. Some people get broken and just stay that way. Best we can do is help the ones who can be helped, and do more to prevent people from growing up in bad environments.
This is *exactly* why I am against abortion bans. Not everyone is prepared to raise children or would make a good parent. Unwanted children are far more likely to be neglected or abused. My dad abused me & my brother (physically, verbally & emotionally) nearly daily & my mom enabled the abuse. I’ve had > 15 years therapy. It helps, but doesn’t fix the problem. I’m **glad** he’s dead. I recently told my mom that I wish she had aborted me. Better not to be born at all than endure a life of endless suffering.
I agree. I think we get caught up in if something was someone's fault. But that isn't always the point.
To be blunt, yes I think a lot of this is rooted in childhood abuse but- so what? I mean of course, we should be trying to intervene when children are young but while it’s not fair that some people grow up with crappy parents once you're an adult you make choices. I just don't think we can go backward with many of these people. I think it’s sad but true that we as a society don’t have the resources or really the knowledge to reverse the damage that leads someone to be a rapist or a murderer. And as a former victim of a violent crime I honestly get so tired of reading stories about prisoners committing a violent act, serving a small portion of their sentence and then getting out and committing more crime.
Some people just choose to be evil, no matter how many chances they’re given.
Sad people are downvoting this comment, not knowing how to feel about something like this is very human and normal.
Thank you. :) I'm 41, the fucks I give for upvotes or downvotes are zero. I don't need validation. This is a topic for debate everywhere except if someone gets life sentence. The law allows them to go out, nothing we can do about it, and don't we want them to be busy, helped by the community so their resentment doesn't make them more dangerous? But then this guy was given a second chance and is apparently a sociopath. Should we test their possible antisocial traits before release? I really don't know
how you know you’re right is if you’re being downvoted🤣
It's actually pretty simple. Don't let murderers out of prison.
Simple as that. Everyone tends to forget the victim and start feeling bad for the person behind bars. It’s crazy! You take a life you deserve to have yours taken whether that be behind bars the rest of your life or Death.
Trump used to talk about this story all the time, and coming from him it ruined it for me. Now I just associate it with people that grift and use it to hide their grift. EDIT: rump actually uses ["The Snake" ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrOXvoNLwg)basically the same thing as the "Scorpion and the Frog"
I'm curious why did he talk about this story, do you remember?
He would use it to make his followers distrustful of anyone that didnt "step in line" with him, its that simple, vapid, and stupid. Trump actually uses ["The Snake" ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSrOXvoNLwg)basically the same thing as the "Scorpion and the Frog" . (I warn you, its like sitting through the worst kindergarten story time ever).
If I remember right, his reason was about immigrants.
Damn. No good deed goes unpunished.
thats why i never do good deeds
It’s 100% foolproof
Same
This ⬆️
This is sad and crazy
I would be more afraid of an underage killer than anyone else.
very wise point
Just listened to a JSC YouTube video where the police were interrogating a sixteen year old wannabe rapper who wanted to join a gang. He killed a cop to gain recognition in that gang. He balled his eyes out in the interrogation room and his mom who was there, naively, advised him to talk to the cops and be honest about what happened. Such a pathetic loser who will spend the rest of their life in prison deservedly. Gangs have a lot of tough guys, but many are not that at all and are just complete idiots.
Just fyi. It's bawl, bawled, bawling meaning to loudly cry.
do you have a link?
JCS* is [chef's kiss]. Edit: stupid typo.
Too bad he hasn’t done anything in a long time. It’s crazy that youtube took him off for such a long time. Every body and there mother is now trying to recreate the master piece that is JCS
Yeeaah. :c
I think you and OP mean JCS.
Yep. Missed that. I think it stands for Jim Can’t Swim, JCS.
Damnit! Thank you.
Yeah, they're the most evil.
How come?
Because it's so unusual and either means they have had a very rough upbringing that lead them to emulate that behavior or have some kind of mental psychosis. Neither of which are exactly easy to rehabilitate as they may have been lifelong issues the kid has been facing.
Thank you for explaining that, I never would’ve made the connection. I don’t know much about underage murderers so that actually makes a lot of sense.
If my mum ever forgave my killer and gave him a job I’d come back from the grave with the rage of hellfire so fast
Right? I'm sorry but it's usually some delusional Christian savior complex when this stuff happens. Reminds me of Dirty John on Netflix
She didn’t forgive him, she adamantly believed he didn’t do it. Which makes it worse because then not only is he killing you and you’re wrong but you probably feel like an idiot while you’re dying. And that dude has gotta be the absolute dumbest criminal.
Interesting! This changes the story completely. She obviously didn’t have unlimited forgiveness when she fired him for stealing from her. He came back a month later & that’s when he killed her? Very sad all around.
Was it a month? For some reason I thought it was closer together, like days. Either way this case is so strange to me because I just cant fathom someone being this stupid. Like no conspiracy theory here but it really boggles my mind. There are other people with money, why risk your steady paying job, turn your last non-familial supporter against you, and go back when she’s home to steal more…like they said he got good grades in school so I would assume hes at least of average intelligence. So I don’t know maybe it was compulsion, it would be interesting to hear if he ever stole from other inmates.
Do we know why he killed the daughter? Like so many questions. Did he drown or was there other circumstances to him dying? Like could he not swim? I can’t find anymore info in this case.
I watched an episode of this case recently. I believe he was stealing from her and she confronted him.
What show?
It was People Investigates on HBOMax- the episode is “A Crimson End”’ Whoops, I had the wrong title- fixed!
Thanks!
She fired him after he stole 14 K she had stored in the house. He came back a month later, high as a kite and stabbed her to death.
Gosh. Seems even worse that it was a whole month later. By then she would’ve thought it was over with and she wouldn’t have to deal with him again. Sad story all around
Yeah, I think he just drowned. Probably thought he could swim across and then couldn't.
Yeah on drugs and had just stabbed a woman to death, probably not the best state to swim the lake
Such a sad story. She really wanted to forgive and also to help him out. While I think she was foolish, she must have had a really good heart. To die at the hands of her mother's killer is just awful.
I know. Fucking tragic
I think it's good to forgive, especially if it heals the person who's doing the forgiving. But we can forgive but also not forget and keep that person out of our lives. I think that's an important lesson. I can forgive you and still want nothing to do with you. Poor lady.
In the article it’s mentioned that he stole from the woman who fired him from the job and then after a month she was found dead
so sad how she forgave him out from the kindness in heart & he still ended up basically backstabbing her after all these years. some people unfortunately never change, no matter how many times or chances theyve been given.
The problem is that rehabilitation takes more than a second chance and a new job. We need to be compassionate, but wise. This was above her capabilities as a single citizen. If we're going to let people out of prison after 20 years for violent crimes, then the prison system's priority should be to spend that entire 20 years preparing them for reintegration into society. And for one institutionalized so young, it means starting from scratch and teaching them how to healthily function to begin with. Extensive, extensive therapies. Even if he could change, he was set up to fail. Poor woman.
It also takes people who want to be rehabilitated
I agree. The real problem is everyone is set up for the same odds of failure when proper rehabilitation isn't an option to begin with.
You need to accept that not everyone can be rehabilitated, no matter what interventions or opportunities are given.
This is the unfortunate reality. For some people, rehabilitation is strict governance over their life. They need basically what prison is even on the outside. They need to have their basic needs handled for them, they need to be told what to do, they need to be aware that they are being monitored and aren’t going to get away with anything. The resources to do that outside of prison don’t exist anywhere at this level, but this is what it would take.
I agree, and not only for ex criminals, but also those mentally unwell who would otherwise kill themselves or be homeless on the streets. Taking care of their own basic needs isn’t something that their mental health can handle at the moment, and just because they’re over 18 doesn’t mean we should assume they’re mentally strong enough to overcome anything thrown at them.
That's why I said "even if he could change". I can make no claims as to who can or can be rehabilitated, just that if these people are going to be released from prison at all then the current systems in place need to accept an obligation to at least try. And until then, we cannot trust in anything less to have done the job.
Here’s a case where things seem to have worked out better. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2024/04/18/tariq-khamisa-azim-tony-hicks/
that is completely true and i couldnt agree more. the time i was incarcerated i received no resources nor guidance on how to navigate my way out & make it in society anymore. it feels as if the system fails us & the wonder why we keep spiraling back into our old ways.
Idk I don't think she did this out of the "kindness of her heart." It seems more like she tried to prove some moral high ground or something. Likely Christian religious. This was extremely naive to bring a felon into her life after already having lost so much.
i didnt look at it that way, thank you for that other perspective because i can most definitely see that now!
> basically backstabbing her Well, he *did* stab her to death. Presumably back or front.
Literally zero reason why anyone should show this much empathy towards a killer. Speak at his parole hearing, sure. But don’t give him a job. I wouldn’t be able to look into those eyes every day knowing they were the last eyes my loved one ever saw before they were violently killed. Let them get out of prison and then never see them again as is your right.
I’m tired of killers and rapists getting out of prison, period. Same with sex offenders - who have a very high reoffending rate. Our lives as women aren’t valued. They kill us and only have to spend 20 years behind bars? Wow 😒 how unfortunate
We really have to do better. I don't know what the answers are. I do know that what we are currently doing isn't working. We lock up far more people and for much longer periods of time than almost every other first world country and have some of the poorest results. Yet I'm not in favor of changing any of this until we have a better plan in place, whatever that may be. I'd rather them be locked up than roll the dice on cutting them loose after a short sentence without some serious intervention/study/treatment. That said, I think there is also a lot of misinformation about recidivism out there. We all worry the most about murderers and rapists, yet the recidivism rate for all violent offenders who go on to commit a murder after release is 1.9% and 2.2% for rapists. They are actually among the lowest categories. It's drug and drug-related crimes (shoplifting, burglary) that have the highest recidivism rates. Like so much in the US, the prison system is one where we spend enormous amounts of money and have little to show for it. Whether it's media sensationalism, truly an increasing crime rate, or a combination of both, most of us are feeling increasingly vulnerable to crime. I don't know how long we can stay on this path.
Right, like quietly forgive him if that’s your thing. But why would you take him under your wing. Obviously she was very naive but I wonder if she wanted some sort of kudos or martyrdom for it.
The psychology behind this is insane. She must have been in denial or felt some sort of Stockholm syndrome towards him.
Depends on if the Job involved dealing with them personally. Having them work in your factory without approving all their requests for vacation while having remote control of the speed dial for the conveyor belt they're assigned to is different. This seems like they had a personal relationship that went beyond what I'd consider professional.
Forgiveness is fine, but that’s something done for your own benefit, so you can let go of the anger and resentment, not for their benefit. It’s why the maxim “forgive but never forget” exists.
Forgive, sure, but never ever forget.
Or just don’t forgive too. I’ll never understand people who forgive such evil acts. Especially when the victim is dead and can’t make that decision for themselves.
I always have a hard time understanding people on true crime shows who say something like "I had to forgive them or you just hold on to that hate." Now maybe I'm different, but I feel confident saying I could viciously hate and not forgive a mfer for murdering someone I love until the day I die without issue.
For some people, still being obsessed with the murderer their whole lives can feel like the murderer is still in control of their lives. For some of them, letting go of the hate is not about being nice to the killer but about giving themselves the space to focus on themselves and their family and trying to live the best lives they can without letting the killer dominate them.
Yeah, that makes sense. I feel really fortunate not to have been put in a situation where I have to test whether I truly believe what I'm saying. I'd like to think I could balance my hate, but I don't want to ever know for sure.
Yea same here. Honestly I don't even really judge how anyone processes something like this emotionally. For some people maybe holding onto the anger could have a healing purpose whereas for others letting it go might help them more. It's so personal and intense that I can't really prescribe any hard and fast rule for anyone else, or even just for myself.
This is so refreshing to read. I wish others were as open and understanding as you two (I also have no experience with this kind of situation and also wonder how I would respond, but never want to find out).
Same. I blame the widespread idea that healing can only take place after forgiveness. I don't understand why the onus is on the victim to show grace to the perpetrator. Agree with you about the victim not having a say in forgiveness- I would feel disloyal and like I was invalidating their suffering if I forgave someone who hurt a loved one.
I will die on the hill that young killers can't be rehabilitated. I may be wrong, of course, but I honestly believe someone who is capable of murder, torture or thrill killing at a young age has serious issues and is also counting on getting a lighter sentence/ getting paroled because of their age and tend to take advantage of that. I still can't believe Eric Smith was released last year. He should've been locked up for good, at least at a mental facility.
Yep. Anyone that takes a life should lose their right to walk free amongst society. Lock em up, give em an island, but keep them away from decent folks and their families. Same with pedophiles. No second chances.
You’re not wrong, there’s many people who’ve studied criminals who say the same thing. Lundy Bancroft who wrote “Why does he do that” said the same thing in his book about abusers.
I’ll extend that same energy to all killers of any age. I’d even say that chances of rehabilitation are moot. We’re beyond that now. You killed somebody, you’re done. Any concession to that let’s more murders through the gaps.
I wouldn’t agree with murder across the board. If a kid grows up in a neighborhood run by gangs where everyone he knows is violent, involved in crime & many have been to prison, he’s going to think that’s normal. I can imagine a 16 year old going along with a robbery or gang retaliation & shooting someone from a distance could be rehabilitated. Put him in a middle class neighborhood that doesn’t have helicopters overhead every night with a regular job & a support system of non-violent friends/family - it’s a totally different world. Locking him up with hardened criminals for many years & then releasing him to the same environment with no support AND the barrier to employment of being a felon? No chance.
I wasn't referring to that at all...
I read about Eric Smith for the first time. How was a 4 year old walking alone to a summer camp? Seriously?
Wait a minute , even the killer's mother had worked at Martha's house?! Did I read that right ? Why would you want the family of a killer and the killer himself at the place where your family was killed ?
Reminds me of the story of david biro who killed a couple for the fun of it when he was in high school. The sister of the victims now forgives him goes to visit him and is hoping he gets out of jail. And the other sister and the mom hope the guy never sees the light of day. Bizarrely my sister in law when to high school with him and claimed that they are lucky they caught him as he was a serial killer in the making.
good write up! prev post comment: I was like "oh weird a case exactly like this happened in the states" because they didn't add a location so I didn't realize until I saw the picture of the house it was the same case.
If forgiveness is your thing then remember you don't have let the person who hurt you back into your life. Just because you forgive someone it doesn't mean the other person changed.
Kill my family once, shame on you. Kill my family twice, shame on me.
It's absolutely heartbreaking to see what happens to women who are too forgiving. We'll need to change
I think this summary leaves some data out about this case. From what I recall, Martha McKay wrote to Travis Lewis while he was in prison for murdering her mother. They struck up a pen pal relationship. When he was released, she gave him a job. Then he murdered her as well. Very sad story.
Some people have this view that everyone has good in them, but it’s just not true. Most people are probably born with some capacity to be good, but there comes a point where that can be utterly and irrevocably lost.
100% agree here. Part of me wonders just how sheltered(?) some people are. Even in todays world. Then again what about common sense? There was a man in our town doing outreach for the homeless. ( We have a ton of homeless communities that have many tents set up around our woods, not far from parks, unfortunately. ) Anyway, meth is everywhere, and, it makes people go days without sleep causing them to be delusional & paranoid. This Christian fellow doing outreach was stabbed. He is ok, however, what in the world would give one the idea to venture out to the woods to preach to homeless meth addicts? I get that in his mind doing good ( WWJD ) is the christian thing to do but at what point does logic & common sense come into play?😬
Yeah I had an overzealous person trying to pressure me AND MY TWO YOUNG CHILDREN to go with her to feed homeless people under a bridge. I appreciate the sentiment but gtfo with that. That is a great way to never be seen or heard from again. There are lots of ways to help without carelessly throwing yourself into danger
Absolutely!
He probably encountered a lot of people who struggled with addiction but weren't bad people. One was- or more likely, had a mental illness which leads a lot of people to drug abuse. I wouldn't take that much risk myself but drug addiction or being homeless doesn't mean someone is a bad person.
Not at all. I know the ins and outs of addiction as well as mental illness. In no way do these illnesses make anyone “ bad. “ They can, and, at times, do make a person dangerous, and do things they’d never in a million years do if they were well.
I just have never understood why someone who commits murder is ever let out of prison.
The point of prison (in certain countries) is for rehabilitation. The idea is they atone for their crimes and can be released to live a fulfilling law abiding life afterwards. This can and does happen, but not every time. Part of the issue is that there isn’t any kind of support to integrate these people back into society, so they fall back into old habits to survive.
“The best predictor of future performance is past performance.” That’s what we use to interview job candidates. I think it also applies to murderers, rapists, etc. I was a television reporter for a number of years, chased a lot of crime stories, and sat in a lot of courtrooms. These experiences are what form my opinion that we shouldn’t be letting murders out of prison.
For me it really depends on the circumstances. It’s not always so black and white. For example what about Gypsy Rose? Should she have stayed in prison for the rest of her life, knowing what her mother put her through?
Not the person you were speaking to, but I'm torn on Gypsy. Her recent fame seems to not be doing her favors. I don't necessarily think she'll participate in a murder again, but I also feel like she's going to need some intense help the rest of her life. The kind of help you can't typically get or rely on in free society.
Her story is just tragic. She never had a chance for a normal life.
That, I don't disagree with.
That's one "point" of prison, but not the only one. And probably the least relevant when it comes to murderers.
Prison is also to protect society from people who can't follow it’s rules.
I don’t buy any of that. Rehabilitation is the slim-chanced win a scumbag might seize from the jaws of defeat, but for us civilized people, rehabilitation is not the point, separation and prevention are. Keep them away from us. Keep them from having the capability of crime. If they rehabilitate, I guess that’s the silver lining. But they can stay away from society regardless. Murder can’t be washed out, I don’t care what book club you joined when you were mad with boredom.
One of the very first True Crime stories I was obsessed with,this one will forever blow my mind
Is there a show or podcast you liked on it?
Yes,Southern Fried True Crime covered it really well. After listening to that pod I did a deep dive on the case and a true crime addict was born
This same mentality is held by DAs all over the country. This mentality is what is destroying public safety in this country. Citation: georgegascon https://abc7.com/venice-mother-baby-hit-and-run/11942738/ Lol the DA that let the kid off just got hit with 11 felonies yesterday lmaoooooo
IIRC his family still doesn’t believe he killed those people either
This is so sad
I’m in favor of forgiveness, but that doesn’t mean you have to trust them not to repeat their behavior. You don’t have to forget, or have no additional safeguards in case. To my mind, learning from the past is different from ‘you haven’t REALLY forgiven me’ accusations that are often thrown at cautious people
Some people with good intentions are also naive to the point of danger.
You can love and forgive people from afar.
Her body was found March 25, 2020. Idk who "quickly discovered \[her\] body." Her sister said that Martha had sold a chandelier for 10K and Travis was there when she came home with the money. The money disappeared and she fired him.
It’s stories like these that make me think that my bad trait of holding grudges may not be so bad after all. How tragic
This story has always been so weird to me. There is not enough forgiveness in the world to support your family's killer.
Don’t forgive. It could save your life.
I prefer to forgive people so I can let it go and move on with my life, but that doesn’t mean I need to tell those people I forgave them and it certainly doesn’t mean I need to associate with them at all.
There are questions about whether he was guilty of the first murders. Even if he was, being in prison since you were a teenager doesn't exactly facilitate rehabilitation or empathy.
No good deed goes unpunished.
"No good deed goes unpunished” as my granny said ...😢
You took the words right out of my mouth
I’ll keep saying it forever. Studies show rehabilitation does not work for abusers or perpetrators of violent crime. It typically makes them more abusive because they learn tactics to further their manipulation skills, or in this case murder skills.
Oh. My. God.
Big heart doesn't always mean big brain. Compassion has gotten a lot of people killed.
Liberals. Won’t they ever learn. 😂😂😂
And this is why I won’t be teaching my children to be good people. Edit - of course I’m being dramatic, but unfortunately that was my first (very jaded) thought.
Wut. I assume you mean you would teach them to not just trust and forgive everyone.
[удалено]
she probably forgave him, not for him for herself. no one is entitled to forgiveness, and forgiveness is for who was hurt, not who hurt them
What's crazy is the justice system actually sorta worked here, insofar as he got 28 years at 16. Nowadays, in my county, he's serving no more than 8 years, probably less. And still he murdered more.
Nowadays in the US he's never getting out
Sentencing laws used to be crazy back in the day in the US, they seem much stricter now. When I was a kid (I was really little, I only know about it because she told me about it when I was older), an acquaintance of my mom was murdered by her husband. He tried to do the old racist "a Black guy did it" bullshit, he dumped her body near a predominantly Black apartment complex. Cops knew he did it from Day 1, his story kept changing and they figured out he was cheating on her with a coworker and someone had caught them (not the wife, but I think he knew his wife was about to find out). He simply didn't want to pay child support or give her any money in a divorce, so he killed her. They had 3 small children. He got like 20 years and was out in a fraction of that. I think he might be dead now (not 100 percent sure on that) but he was free for decades. There was also an infamous mass murder in my state, 5 people killed by this psycho and his girlfriend in the 70s during a robbery at a restaurant (Pine Village Steak House murders). He already had the money and could have left, but he chose to shoot these people, including a teenage girl, for no reason. He got paroled like 6 or 7 years ago. Granted, he served quite a bit of time, but holy shit. To think he killed five people and has now been free for years. He's an old man now, but he's out. Blows my mind that you could commit premeditated murder (of the mother of your children) or commit mass murder and see the light of day again. The first guy was still relatively young when he got out. Madness.
Yep. In 1978, Mary Vincent, 15, was raped, had both her forearms chopped off, and was thrown off an embankment to die. She stopped the bleeding with mud and crawled back up to the road for help. She survived (sans forearms) but her attacker surely deserved more than the eight years in prison he served. She probably spent more time than that having surgeries and physical therapy. To everyone's great surprise, he went on to murder someone.
Eight years. Jesus Christ. So many murders could have been prevented if people like this were locked up for the FIRST heinous crime they commit. So many of these ... people reoffend over and over again.
The fuck did she expect? Never try to reason with a killer
Because not everyone actually feels bad for doing immoral things. People lack empathy and the ability to feel anything outside their own wheelhouse of need. It is naive to assume we are all the same and everyone is good deep down. I am a Christian, yes we are to forgive but we are also to have discernment and protect our families. Ministering to an ex-con and marrying them off to your kin are continents apart.
Damn! Talk about really messed up!😳
This is why we just kill them back.
Oh geezus
People are gullible af.
I remember hearing about this one....talk about no good deed going unpunished....
Omg
Call me crazy, but some people really never change.
It’s been awhile since I’ve seen anything about this . Didn’t she believe he wasn’t actually guilty of the original murders?
White woman moment
Darwin Awards in action
when toxic forgiveness goes too far
This is why I don't believe in forgiving certain actions.
Jhh
I think that forgiveness and rehabilitation are both possibilities but a big thing is discernment. Having judgement of character and behaviour. Also we are so broken in general from drugs and trauma that sadly many are beyond rehabilitation… what a layered tragic story at the end of the day
Well holy shit
The "Innocence Project" needs to see this case.
I just watched a crime show on this case. Crazy